Speaker 1: Hey, fam I'm Jada Pinkett Smith and this is the
Speaker 1: Red Table Pop podcast, all your favorite episodes from the
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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Yes, yes, I'm loving bines. Where's your mama? Alright?
Speaker 1: How are you? It's been a long time, Yes, it
Speaker 1: has for any of us looking for the courage to
Speaker 1: live our lives as we choose. Well, hey man, this
Speaker 1: is the show for us. Our family has known basketball
Speaker 1: legend Magic Johnson and his amazing wife Cookie for over
Speaker 1: twenty years. The Johnson's were faced with the choice embraced
Speaker 1: their vibrant son e J, who is boldly pushing boundaries
Speaker 1: with very provocative and daring choices, or to try to
Speaker 1: push him to be something that he's not. Let's go
Speaker 1: in and go sit at the table. That color is
Speaker 1: that a polish or is that like it's a powder?
Speaker 1: It's a powder? Okay, because you need to get into that.
Speaker 1: We got Cookie and e J here with us today, y'all.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you here. Yeah, real talk.
Speaker 1: I'm super excited for so many reasons. I think we
Speaker 1: have so much to talk about and I just want
Speaker 1: to talk about raising children outside of what is considered
Speaker 1: the norm because it's challenging. First of all, how do
Speaker 1: you define gender fluidity in your eyes? I guess you're
Speaker 1: just in your floating in the spectrum. You're not really
Speaker 1: defined by any gender confines, if you will. I just
Speaker 1: feel like it's fluid because this movie it's fluid. It's nebulous.
Speaker 1: It's just like Willow's word of the day, nebulous. I
Speaker 1: like that word. Yes, it's really just I'm just e gyant. Yeah.
Speaker 1: People come up to me all the time and be like, so,
Speaker 1: how do you just be normal? And I'm like, now
Speaker 1: where you are that trips them out, That's like whoa,
Speaker 1: That's like that's crazy that you know what is normal
Speaker 1: for you in your natural state? Do that. I just
Speaker 1: feel like the only times when it gets a little
Speaker 1: weird is like, okay, what's your bathroom? Like yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's like sometimes I'll be like in the like
Speaker 1: a skirt and like a look like I'm doing the
Speaker 1: most and I'm like in the men's room and everyone's
Speaker 1: like and I'm like, now they're starting to do like
Speaker 1: male and female bathrooms, like and I feel like even
Speaker 1: like the high end restaurants like made it like a
Speaker 1: chic thing to just be like, oh, like there's no
Speaker 1: labels go you know, like in the individual stalls or
Speaker 1: like UNI they have like the men's the women like that.
Speaker 1: That works for me. With that, that works for me.
Speaker 1: I love being able to sit here with the two
Speaker 1: of you because both of you have such courage and
Speaker 1: have been so brave. Two do you and be you? Yes? Cookie?
Speaker 1: What has it been like for you as a mom?
Speaker 1: As a mom, well, you know, it wasn't easy. We're
Speaker 1: from the Midwest. You know, everything is you know, straight laced.
Speaker 1: So when it first came about, I didn't know what
Speaker 1: to do about it. I didn't know because I noticed three,
Speaker 1: that's what you because he's that's when he started wanting
Speaker 1: to put on the princess costumes at school, even at home,
Speaker 1: like he would come in my closet, want to put
Speaker 1: on my shoes, or my mom had these really full
Speaker 1: skirts and he would like twirl around he would want
Speaker 1: to put and then he would put them on and
Speaker 1: swirl around and then But you know, you always thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: everything's a phase. So you think, oh, this is a phase.
Speaker 1: You know, he'll outgrow it. I won't worry about it.
Speaker 1: So we five years old, we put him in sports
Speaker 1: and instead of catching the ball, he's in the in
Speaker 1: the field picking flowers and he runs up to him, Mommy,
Speaker 1: look what I found for you? You know, right? Was
Speaker 1: there ever a time in your life that you did
Speaker 1: conform that you did play like a sport basketball, baseball?
Speaker 1: I mean I tried, but it just didn't click after that,
Speaker 1: and then I started acting and doing theater. Like when
Speaker 1: I was fifteen, me and my friend who who's also gay,
Speaker 1: but we you know, had just come out to each other,
Speaker 1: so we thought that was a big deal. That's real
Speaker 1: talk the courage of that. We went to Hawaii once
Speaker 1: and I'm sitting behind him and his friend. You know
Speaker 1: how the girls go buy in the bathing suits and
Speaker 1: the guys go by. So when the guys went by,
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, you know, like and nothing. Okay,
Speaker 1: we need to have a talk. And the talk wasn't
Speaker 1: you can't be this? The talk was do you think
Speaker 1: you are? And I said, before you answer that, thought
Speaker 1: know that if you are, I'm okay with it. And
Speaker 1: so he answered and he said, yes, I think I am,
Speaker 1: and I was like, well, okay, you know, we will
Speaker 1: love you and support me no matter what. I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is what makes him happy. Let him be happy.
Speaker 1: But at that time, you can be happy in your room,
Speaker 1: but don't let that see you. So it was all
Speaker 1: of that. How was the journey for your father? My
Speaker 1: husband is a kind of person like he reacts quickly,
Speaker 1: so everything that came to the top of his head,
Speaker 1: he just let it out. Your father been magic Johnson
Speaker 1: and icon, one of the most famous athletes in the world.
Speaker 1: How was the journey for your father? When was it
Speaker 1: okay for him to play with dolls or to wear
Speaker 1: the dresses in the hut? To be long time? We
Speaker 1: had to talk with dad and that was a little tough.
Speaker 1: You know, it was a little tough. My husband is
Speaker 1: the kind of person like he reacts quickly, so everything
Speaker 1: that came to the top of his hand, he just
Speaker 1: let it out. And I was like, because it hurt
Speaker 1: my feelings, and I know what party heard his feelings
Speaker 1: when he was in You know, it's not what I
Speaker 1: wanted for my son. And do you realize what you're saying?
Speaker 1: Because you know the world is not gonna like that,
Speaker 1: and you want to live this life. So afterwards, you know,
Speaker 1: I told him, I saying I thought that was a
Speaker 1: little tough, you know, you know, that wasn't right, and
Speaker 1: he didn't say anything. And then next day, the very
Speaker 1: next day, he went to your room, you tell it
Speaker 1: and just was like, we're going to get through this,
Speaker 1: and you know, I just need time, and then um,
Speaker 1: we both just kind of started crying a little bit.
Speaker 1: And yeah, but then I moved to New York to
Speaker 1: go to college, and when he came back to visit,
Speaker 1: he picked me up for dinner and he was like,
Speaker 1: you know, like I have your here where we love you.
Speaker 1: I went, you know, I'm just like whenever I hug
Speaker 1: your dad and whatever. But he hugged me so hard
Speaker 1: he almost like broke my back. And at that point
Speaker 1: I was like, we're gonna be okay, right, you know,
Speaker 1: because like I could really feel the love. And then
Speaker 1: at that point I was like, you know what, We're
Speaker 1: gonna be fine. Yeah, it's tough because I know that
Speaker 1: you're trying to manage the husband and musically it's gonna
Speaker 1: be okay. It's gonna be okay, and then managed the kids.
Speaker 1: All right, I'm figuring it out. You know, and at
Speaker 1: the same time managing yourself and then not losing yourself
Speaker 1: in it and then at the same time having to
Speaker 1: deal with the world. Right when Jaden God asked to
Speaker 1: do the women's campaign for Louis Vuitton, this kind of
Speaker 1: gender fluid fashion, you know, Will called me be will Smith,
Speaker 1: Will Smith and you know what I mean. And he's like, nope, this,
Speaker 1: my son is not supposed to be in Louis Vuitton
Speaker 1: ad wearing skirts that is not no no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: hold up, is this a good idea? And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know what, will It's what he wants. This is
Speaker 1: this is his expression. And he said, okay, okay, but
Speaker 1: it was tight. It was tight, you know, and he
Speaker 1: was a crane. It was uncomfortable because you know, as dad,
Speaker 1: you know, expect macho macho, you know. Yeah. He told
Speaker 1: me he didn't want me to cut my hair. He
Speaker 1: didn't want Willow to shave her head. Do it. It's
Speaker 1: like all your femininity, as if my femininity was like
Speaker 1: in my hair. Yeah, you know you've been rocking short
Speaker 1: hair well yeah, short hair, short yeah. But Willow was nine,
Speaker 1: so he was like, you know what I mean, a
Speaker 1: little girl little girls, like you know, it's his little girl,
Speaker 1: and I want you to stay a little girl as
Speaker 1: long as I can. They want you in a place
Speaker 1: of where they can protect you. That's what I really
Speaker 1: learned from Will. And they think about what the world thinks,
Speaker 1: which is what he you know, his dad kept telling
Speaker 1: him there's just so much judgment in the world. Just
Speaker 1: begets itself. It's like insecurity, then begets You're going to
Speaker 1: tell someone what they're doing wrong based on what you
Speaker 1: think you're doing wrong, and then it's just a cycle
Speaker 1: of and then you can never cycle. Yeah, e J,
Speaker 1: let's talk about your fashion for a second, because I
Speaker 1: have to tell you you've got some fierce fashion. Thank
Speaker 1: you right now. Your face is be Honestly, I would
Speaker 1: always repost your outfit photos, your amazing style, and I
Speaker 1: would constantly just be like, wow, I wish that I
Speaker 1: could even like dress myself like this. Well, I've always
Speaker 1: let the clothes like speak to me. I've never been
Speaker 1: confined by whether this was in the men's action of
Speaker 1: the woman's action, Like if I feel that this should
Speaker 1: be on my body, then it should be on my body.
Speaker 1: It's always been a lot for people to come brehand.
Speaker 1: You know, it took a long time for her to
Speaker 1: get used to it, but like, you know, it's just
Speaker 1: always who I was, and it was just difficult because
Speaker 1: of course your parents always want you to be normal,
Speaker 1: so like no one makes fun of you, and like
Speaker 1: we're in a protecting way of yeah, we always want
Speaker 1: to prove right. But I think, you know, coming into adulthood,
Speaker 1: it was kind of like I'm here now and like
Speaker 1: if somebody wants to make fun of me, like I
Speaker 1: have to have my own back. And they prepared me
Speaker 1: for that, you know, coming into the world, and yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: and it's really helped me, you know. So how did
Speaker 1: they do that? How did your parents? How were they
Speaker 1: able to help you be able to walk into the world,
Speaker 1: especially in the age of social media, because I'm I
Speaker 1: was growing up social we didn't have social media likeness.
Speaker 1: I think like they gave me a good dose of
Speaker 1: nurturing and love but also reality. You know. I think
Speaker 1: they like, we love you, like whatever, like you know,
Speaker 1: live your life, but like you need to know that,
Speaker 1: like not everybody is going to have that same love
Speaker 1: and respect for you, and it's not going to be
Speaker 1: easy for some people. And you know, you're gonna have
Speaker 1: to understand that. And even like when you're coasting and
Speaker 1: you think you're on top of the world, like there's
Speaker 1: always one instance or one person that I have to
Speaker 1: be like, oh, right, you're that person, right, you are right.
Speaker 1: I feel like you kind of get that dose on
Speaker 1: if you're constantly on social media, especially, you know, like
Speaker 1: getting that that dose comes a little sooner when you
Speaker 1: when you're looking at your phone and you're like, these
Speaker 1: are what people are saying, Like this is for real.
Speaker 1: People are just me. People are just me, And yeah,
Speaker 1: I just have to really learn how to block it.
Speaker 1: You know. Do you find that sometimes those are people
Speaker 1: who are just upset that they haven't granted themselves their
Speaker 1: own freedom, And it's like you don't get to do
Speaker 1: that because I don't get to be myself. You know.
Speaker 1: I find that I get that a lot more in person,
Speaker 1: even in people in the you know, greater gender community
Speaker 1: or like whatever. It's like sometimes there's just just really
Speaker 1: weird is staining, and it's just mostly because like you,
Speaker 1: I feel like you can't be here. But like if
Speaker 1: you just open up and and learn to let live
Speaker 1: and let go, like we could be here. But it's
Speaker 1: just like almost envy. It's always been so weird to me,
Speaker 1: e J. The producers are telling me that you are
Speaker 1: dating now? Is that I want to hear that I was?
Speaker 1: I know, I like totally leave her in the dog
Speaker 1: about my love life. I'm not dating anybody in particular.
Speaker 1: I am dating, like I go on dates. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: how has it been since it's you know, it's always
Speaker 1: been a struggle. It's you know, there's so many factors.
Speaker 1: First of all, it's like the celebrity thing, like, okay,
Speaker 1: who are you here? For? You dating me? You're trying
Speaker 1: to date my dad. These men either just want to
Speaker 1: be there for one thing and then like don't want
Speaker 1: to stay for the real relationship part. Or they just
Speaker 1: want to ride the wave and b booge and bomb
Speaker 1: and have their picture taken and do all of that.
Speaker 1: So there's so much going on, but hurt, hurt exactly.
Speaker 1: You both end up crying the corner, you know. So
Speaker 1: you haven't brought anyone special home to you. I have not,
Speaker 1: because every time I would be ready to, something happens
Speaker 1: and then I'm like no, And I would never pre
Speaker 1: expose you to somebody that I didn't like. Vet, you
Speaker 1: know so hard, like the White House. I know, for me,
Speaker 1: wherever my parents are, it's like a sacred space for me.
Speaker 1: And so do you ever feel like that person may
Speaker 1: not be able to hold the importance of that space? Definitely?
Speaker 1: And I think that's the reason why this one's really
Speaker 1: wise here. And I'm telling you like that just it's
Speaker 1: just because that's a lot to carry. I didn't even
Speaker 1: think about this, are you know even growing up, like
Speaker 1: our friends were definitely all friends that you knew and
Speaker 1: you pre approved of. It was like, you know, we
Speaker 1: would never let some crazy person, you know, even if
Speaker 1: I was like, oh so and so is coming over
Speaker 1: after school to do who that? Well, let me call
Speaker 1: here and see you know what this type of person is,
Speaker 1: you know, Like that's the kind of thing like I
Speaker 1: think about, Like I don't know our parents, but I
Speaker 1: know that person right right, where's the phone book? Let
Speaker 1: me call this person? Mob man? Like most of the time,
Speaker 1: like absolutely not. I would never let you walk into
Speaker 1: the sacred walls, sacred spaces. And like you know what
Speaker 1: I have to say, Cookie to have two fabulous children
Speaker 1: that still care about what we think and appropriate. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you what, man, I gave birth to a son
Speaker 1: that I didn't know. Yeah, I be there. Our generations,
Speaker 1: we always it feels like we had to label things
Speaker 1: to understand it. This is this, and that's it's how
Speaker 1: we how we make sense. Because even when I was
Speaker 1: talking to Willow and she said something like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not feminine or masculine. We don't really worry about
Speaker 1: being a woman or a man. You know, every things changing.
Speaker 1: But it is beautiful. But I must say it's taken
Speaker 1: some getting used to, you know, because Jaden and Willow
Speaker 1: have always been different. They were born that way. It
Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of people think that it came from
Speaker 1: my rearing, but no, I just so happened that that's
Speaker 1: how they came into the world. And I had to
Speaker 1: get in order because I had to be open enough
Speaker 1: to receive it. And because you have all of those
Speaker 1: societal norms weighing on you, you know, me coming from
Speaker 1: Baltimore and coming from a very rugged like you know,
Speaker 1: where men were men and like weakness, you get hurt.
Speaker 1: You like, yeah, there wasn't a whole lot of room
Speaker 1: for all of that. Just wasn't room. I gave birth
Speaker 1: to a son that I didn't know. M Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. Jaden is so sweet. You know,
Speaker 1: I went through a process of oh my gosh, what
Speaker 1: a beautiful child, and then I went through I'm fearful
Speaker 1: he'll go into the world, he's gonna get eaten up,
Speaker 1: and then learning to have that trust in him. You
Speaker 1: know that they got it right. The things that you
Speaker 1: guys go through and are able to go through with that,
Speaker 1: I don't give a attitude. It's just amazing to me.
Speaker 1: And it seems to be deepening with each generation because
Speaker 1: I know even when I was coming up in what
Speaker 1: you allowed me to do, when I was dyeing my
Speaker 1: hair before the purples and blues and all that were
Speaker 1: in you know what I'm saying, And I was an
Speaker 1: art school kid that was considered a weirdough you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And my mother was like, do you
Speaker 1: I know I learned a lot having you guys, you know,
Speaker 1: sitting here, because families, we're all trying to figure stuff out,
Speaker 1: the fact that you all can be in the world
Speaker 1: and be okay your own skin is such a wonderful thing.
Speaker 1: And for me, talking to both of you, it just
Speaker 1: helps me have the courage to be a little bit
Speaker 1: more brave in my own journey. This is what I
Speaker 1: would like to tell all parents out there. But if
Speaker 1: you have a child, listen to them, talk to them,
Speaker 1: let them be who they are, because eventually they're going
Speaker 1: to do that anyway, So you might as well just
Speaker 1: be a part of it, you know, don't don't fight
Speaker 1: it and then end up being the enemy. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: also your evolution as well, like you are evolving through
Speaker 1: him each stage. And I do think you make such
Speaker 1: a beautiful point, Willow, and the idea that you know,
Speaker 1: we give life to our children, and we're told as
Speaker 1: parents were here to guide them, and we're here to
Speaker 1: teach them, and I think we often forget how much
Speaker 1: our kids teach us. What a blessing. Yeah, I learned
Speaker 1: a lot today on our next red Table talk one
Speaker 1: of the funniest women out there, my girl Tiffany Hash.
Speaker 1: When somebody asked me out on the day, I will
Speaker 1: make some time. I was texting with Drake. He was like,
Speaker 1: we should hang out sometimes. I'm like, I could have
Speaker 1: made a thousand dollars a day, but I was trying
Speaker 1: to see what that beat us bankings. You're not really
Speaker 1: black as far as the rise, What has been the
Speaker 1: best part when beyond my name from I made it facebooker,
Speaker 1: what's good face? Yes? Here for you give me your
Speaker 1: questions and you have the answers. Yes, please share your experiences. Yes,
Speaker 1: because we're on this journey together. Yes. To join the
Speaker 1: A table Talk family and become a part of the conversation,
Speaker 1: follow us at facebook dot com slash red table Talk.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of Red Table Talk
Speaker 1: podcast produced by Facebook, Watch, Westbrook Audio, and I Heart Radio.