1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. It doesn't come about 2 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: with me as a result of age. It is something 3 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: that has plagued me my entire life, and that is 4 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: a curiosity regarding places. I love to try to understand 5 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: the origin of places and the things that occupied a 6 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: particular space. I like to drive down the road, particularly 7 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: through old neighborhoods from New Orleans, as many of you 8 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: guys know, and there are a lot of old dwellings there. 9 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: Sometimes though, I am as fascinated by what is not 10 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: there as I am by what is there, because you're 11 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: left wondering if you have a space, let's say, for instance, 12 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: in an old neighborhood, what had occupied that space, what 13 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: lives were lived there? Every place does, in fact have 14 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: a story. Today on bodybags, we're going to step back 15 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: for a second to November of twenty twenty two, to 16 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: just off campus at the University of Idaho, where there 17 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: was a dwelling, an odd dwelling shaped in a bizarre 18 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: fashion because it had been added on to over the 19 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: years to accommodate students, and now in the present it 20 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: is no more. Today we're going to discuss the demolition 21 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: of the home or for University of Idaho students were murdered. 22 00:01:53,840 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body backs here 23 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: we are. The house is gone. It's been called many things, 24 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: a house of horrors, it was called off campus housing, 25 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: it was called the spot of a multiple homicide. But 26 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: it the dwelling, the physical structure exists no longer. 27 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: I think that's a shame. 28 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: It really is. 29 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: Not for any preian interest or horror story thing. It's 30 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 3: just that on November thirteenth of twenty twenty two, Xana 31 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 3: kernodle Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, and Kaylee Gonzalvez were murdered 32 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: inside this home. And we don't have a conviction of 33 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 3: the murderer yet. This is still a crime scene to me. 34 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 3: We haven't had a trial, and now they have removed 35 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 3: the opportunity for if I was a juror, I'd want 36 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,359 Speaker 3: to go see the space. How do you tell the 37 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: story of what happened if you don't have the space, Joe, 38 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: do you expect me to use my imagination? We're not 39 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 3: all that good. Three D photos are fine, video is fine, 40 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: movies are fine, but they're not the same as seeing 41 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 3: it with your own two eyes, touching it with your 42 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 3: own two hands. I don't see how this makes any sense. 43 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: I don't either, you know, And I know, look, I 44 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: know the counter to this is going to be, well, 45 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: you don't understand. We've got the technology now that they 46 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: went in with, probably what's referred to as a Pharaoh 47 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: system FA r O, which is the electronic or digital 48 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: mapping system that's got the you know, the mirrors, and 49 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: it spins and it's taking thousands of images. But let 50 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: me back up just a second. You know, we don't 51 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: live that far apart. And I'll tell you what. I'll 52 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: go get in my car. We'll go half on gas 53 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: and half on food. All right, I'll come and pick 54 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: you up, and we're gonna make a drive. We're gonna 55 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: drive to We're gonna drive to Massachusetts. Okay, it's gonna 56 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: be kind of a long drive. But you know, you 57 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: and I we we like to yammor with one another. 58 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: So yeah, uh, And did you know that right now, 59 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: if we took the time, we could go hoping my 60 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: old jelopie and provided it would get us up there, 61 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: we could drive not just to Massachusetts, we could drive 62 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: to Fall River, Massachusetts, and I could take you right 63 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: now to the home where Andrew and Abby Borden were 64 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: killed allegedly by Lizzie Borden on August fourth, eighteen ninety two. 65 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: That structure is still standing. I could, I could take 66 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: you there right. 67 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: Lizzie Borden took an act, gave her mother forty one. 68 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: I saw what she'd done. 69 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: She gave her father forty one. I'm looking at it. 70 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 3: That's I had to look it up because I remember 71 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: them doing I remember as a child doing little rhymes 72 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 3: and things like that. And yet that was the horror 73 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 3: scene that we were all growing up to. I'm not 74 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: saying that it's funny that that happened. But okay, allegedly 75 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 3: did it not happen? Did they not get killed with 76 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 3: an axe? 77 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: They did get killed, But Lizzie was never convicted of it. 78 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: You know, she was convicted in the I think by 79 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: the public. Maybe she did. I have no idea, but 80 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: that physical structure. 81 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 3: Still there, and we could actually book a room, yeah 82 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: we could. They've turned it into a little B and B. 83 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: Isn't that something? And look, don't misconstrue what I'm saying. 84 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that this should be some kind of 85 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: oddity a side show. You said it right, just a 86 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: moment ago about that this structure is gone forever and ever. 87 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: Amen that if you and I watched it, I have 88 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: to I have to admit I did. I watched. One 89 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: of my friends was covering this and she kind of 90 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: narrated the process and it had a I think it 91 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: was like a time lapse or something, and I watched 92 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: square foot by square foot of you know, they've they've 93 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: got the they've got the big equipment out there. They're 94 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: taking this thing down floor by floor, and it's taken 95 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: against against the protest of the families, right. They did 96 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: not want this to go away. Let me ask you this, 97 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: would you or would you not agree that there are 98 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: horrible homicides that occur in our country day in and 99 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: day out. I know you know this. You know it 100 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: better than I do, because you cover more of them, 101 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: because you work with Nancy so much. I mean, you 102 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: you this stuff. I don't know if my my fans 103 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: understand what this man does. But every single day he 104 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: sits and he studies, he studied. Can you imagine, folks, 105 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: if you if you've spent all of your time studying cases, 106 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: there are many cases that you guys never hear about. 107 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: But guess what Dave Mack has to look got them. 108 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: He sees cases day in and day out. Let me 109 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: ask something day out of all these cases that you 110 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: cover and all of this horror that takes place across 111 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: the nation, across the world, in Nancy's case, because she 112 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: covers everything, are they going around tearing down crime scenes? 113 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: Nope? 114 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: Are they going around tearing down physical structures all the time? 115 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: No? 116 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't understand it. It just it doesn't. 117 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me. 118 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 3: Not when there's still a trial to go. I could 119 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 3: see some justification, Joe, if if there was damage to 120 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 3: the structure, or if it became some kind of macabre, 121 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 3: which this place. I don't doubt that it had become 122 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 3: a bit of a place that crime people would go 123 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 3: and look at. I don't doubt that. But I have 124 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 3: a problem with it because we don't have a trial. 125 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: We haven't had, it hasn't gone before. We don't know 126 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 3: what happened yet. We know what we think. But you 127 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: know what, Joe, we only know one side of it. 128 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 3: But we only know the side that you and I 129 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 3: have been privy to and you've studied it a lot. 130 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 3: You've talked about this a lot. I have too, and 131 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: you and I have both looked at a lot of material. 132 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 3: But you know what, we haven't heard everything. And I 133 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: think that they're doing a disservice to everybody when they 134 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: do this, to the four people who are dead, to 135 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 3: the other two who were in that house the night that. 136 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: I still have a lot of questions. I'd like to 137 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: have them answer some questions, and I'd like to have 138 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 3: them walk me through where they were, but I can't now, No, 139 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,559 Speaker 3: I can have them tell me where they were. 140 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: Look, we have no way of knowing, do we. I mean, 141 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,839 Speaker 1: we truly don't. We have no way of knowing who 142 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: the jury members are going to be. 143 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: Right. 144 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: It's out in the ether. I mean, there's there's not 145 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: been a pool that has been a symbol to even 146 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: select from. At this point in time. All we hear 147 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: is that it's going you know, we've heard it's going 148 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: to go to trial this summer, all right now. 149 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 3: If they found the knife where they destroyed the knife, Joe. 150 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: That's an excellent question, because you know we got pictures 151 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: of it. No, No, we don't. 152 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 2: We don't know we've got the sheath that people. 153 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: Have gone on and on about. You know now, for 154 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: loath these many months that that scene to me is 155 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: just as valuable as the to this point, at least 156 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: the unfound knife or the yet to be discovered knife. 157 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: I'm trying to remain hopeful in that. But yet you 158 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: you want to get rid of. And I think the 159 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 1: you is the big the big part that you know, 160 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: who is the you? Because we're hearing that both the 161 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: prosecution and the defense are in agreement over this. But 162 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: we all know that it's one thing to say that 163 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: you're in agreement over it, okay, uh, but anything can 164 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: be argued after the fact. You know that we weren't 165 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: given an ample opportunity to do. I still have a memory, Lord, 166 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: I wish I could remember the date of this, because 167 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,599 Speaker 1: I've covered the sink for so long, this quadruple homicide. 168 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: Let's let's re anchor ourselves in that. Do you remember 169 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: this where they had sent the crime scene clean up 170 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: group to the house and it was around the same 171 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: time and I can't remember. It was around the same 172 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: time that Coburger, who is alleged to have committed the homicides, 173 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: was being arrested. I think he may have still been. 174 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: Was he still in Pennsylvania at that point in time, 175 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: And they had said that they were going to clean 176 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: this place up, and the trucks had pulled up to 177 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: the door. They were putting up like plastic over the 178 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: entryway so they could go in and like do whatever 179 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: the heck it was they were going to do in there, 180 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: clean the thing up. And his defense team at the time, 181 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: the people that were represented, said whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, 182 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: We'll hold your horses now, and they wound up being 183 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: able to get a team out there, you know, to 184 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: to you know, take a look around. I'm look, I'm 185 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: not a fan of Brian Koberger. What I'm saying is, 186 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: you know what, what I'm a fan of is trying 187 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: to get the jury in touch with with the reality 188 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: of what happened there. 189 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: It was a three story building, Joe. 190 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. I love I love the saying and 191 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: UH that we say in UH in forensics. Many times 192 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: negative findings are just as important as positive findings, and 193 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: so those things that you know, you you talk about 194 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: it being three story, we've got that basement level, which 195 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: some people call the first floor. You know, the thing 196 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: is built into the side of a hill. You know 197 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: what would I'd be interested in knowing if I was 198 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: a jury member, if I was down on that first floor, 199 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: could I hear somebody up in the top floor yelling 200 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 1: or just talking normally? Because I got to tell you, 201 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: if I'm a jury member, I'm assuming if I were 202 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: selected for or these people that are, I'm assuming they've 203 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: never been to this dwelling. So from an acoustic standpoint, 204 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: just that alone, I am hoping against hope Dave, that 205 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: the reason or the rationale for taking this structure down 206 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: didn't simply come down to the idea that it may 207 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: have made certain people uncomfortable. It comes down to perspective. 208 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: We were chatting this second ago about those things that 209 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: are lost. I still have this memory of and they 210 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: were onto something too. I think I still have this 211 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: memory of a reporter walking up to guys in what 212 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: we used to refer to as either ray jackets or 213 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: warrant jackets, which are you know, those kind of shells 214 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: that you see the police officers where it's generally got 215 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: a panel on the back that identifies who you are. 216 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: They were out in the brush line, which is to 217 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: the rear of this structure where the sliders are looking 218 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: out over that field that kind of gently rose up 219 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: behind it, and you could see there's like a little 220 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: tree line back there. And these guys were there was 221 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: a reporter that walked up and they were in daylight, 222 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: walked up to these fellows that were kind of perched, 223 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: and they were squatting, and they were looking through the 224 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: brush back toward that house. And I know what they 225 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: were doing. They were trying to get an idea. It's 226 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: not that they were looking for evidence on the ground. 227 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't that kind of thing. It's like they were 228 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: trying to perceive what their feeling division was allowing them 229 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: to see back toward the house, looking from that brush 230 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: line that's gone, that's gone. I mean, I guess you 231 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: could call those guys up and say, hey, you know, 232 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: agent so and so, I want you to testify to 233 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: what you saw. What was your perception up there? What 234 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: was your opinion about what you could see? Well, first off, 235 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: they can't render an opinion about it, and their recollection. 236 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: I don't really care about. 237 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 3: No, because it's perceived. It's there, it's not mine, it's 238 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: their perspective. It's like d Lee Plaza, right, if I 239 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: was to go and stand on the grassy knoll behind 240 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: the fence where I believe there was a shooter position 241 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: to shoot the President of the United States, if that's 242 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 3: you believe, you can go there. You can go to 243 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 3: the sixth floor of the school book depository, yes you can. 244 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: And that's not a great view, but you can go 245 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: up and you can look through that window. I've done it. 246 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: It didn't tear it down, but that structure. 247 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: Still standing, Okay. And I'm not trying to equate the 248 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: present Mint's assassination. I'm glad you brought this up because 249 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: acoustics comes into that as well. I'm not trying to 250 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: equate that with this quadruple homicide that happened in Idaho. 251 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: But your point is well taken here. 252 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 2: I just don't see how you can tear down the evidence. 253 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: I don't either. And you know, going back to I 254 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: think one of the most poignant days I've ever been 255 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: on air was that day where that jury was taken 256 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: out to Parkland High School. I'll never forget they had 257 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: they taking the jury out there, And keep in mind, 258 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: this is years after the fact they had put up 259 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 1: chain link fence all around this building. And granted it's 260 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: a government structure, but hey, you know what that house 261 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: in Idaho's government structure now too, because why the state 262 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: university have complete and total control over the thing. But 263 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, when they took those jury members out to Parkland. 264 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: You know how though, and I know you do because 265 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: you've been at this a long time. They choose pool 266 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: reporters that will go. You know, they just don't let 267 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: not every single reporter can go, So they choose who's 268 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: going to go. They'll be like a videographer person, I guess, 269 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: like you know, like a print journalist, you know what 270 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: I'm saying. And those journalists I remember that comments from them, 271 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: and it was it was gut wrenching to hear what 272 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: they had said because they they went back to that 273 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: moment in time when that person went into that high 274 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: school and slaughtered all of those kids, and it transported 275 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: that the jury members back to that point in time. 276 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: The game was over at that point, because you know, 277 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: they were able they were able to kind of connect 278 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: the reality of that moment frozen in time. There was 279 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: dried blood still on the ground they had. I'll never 280 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: forget one of the things because it was on Valentine's Day. 281 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: You remember they had dried flowers that were kind of 282 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: falling apart, laying their teddy bears, you know, with like 283 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: little Valentine's hearts on them, you know, like kids give 284 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: one another, you know, a Valentine's Day. This stuff was 285 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: still there, but it was frozen in time, and you 286 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: get this kind of relationship, physical relationship. And I mean 287 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: that in the sense of what you're viewing, what you're hearing, 288 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: even what you're smelling, you know, at that point in time, 289 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: and it all feeds back into it. Now, I will 290 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 1: state this, it's obvious that every single homicide I have 291 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: ever worked, we did not take Jerry's back out to scenes. 292 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: It's the rare ones. But I think I could probably 293 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: convince you to agree with me that this is a 294 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: rare one. This is something where you've got a major 295 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: loss of life event in a small, little town. There's 296 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: a lot riding on this that you want to make 297 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: sure that you get right, both for not just prosecution, 298 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: but for the defense as well. And it's not there anymore. 299 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 3: You have to account for entry into the building, you 300 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 3: have to account for movement inside the building, moving from 301 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 3: room to room, upstairs, downstairs, down a hallway, seeing a 302 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 3: person you have, the activity, and how big the rooms are, 303 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: and what's taking place right now. We have some reporting 304 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 3: of what we were told happened with some of the victims, 305 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 3: whether they were able to fight back or not, whether 306 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 3: they're we don't still know. We know what we've been 307 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 3: told by certain family members who may have said things 308 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 3: that didn't need to come out yet. It'll come out 309 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 3: of trial, but we don't know yet. And the jury 310 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: that is seated is going to have to watch video 311 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 3: or to use their imagination now to decide how long 312 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 3: it takes to make these steps, How strong does one 313 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 3: have to Can one person truly contain this entire environment 314 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 3: in a very short window of time, moving up and downstairs, 315 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 3: and by the way, actually having a live witness. 316 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, here's the thing. I'm fascinated by this. It 317 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: was stated early on that whoever had done this had 318 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: perpetrated this massacre. There's no other way to put it. 319 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: Had to be familiar. It's such a bizarre layout. I mean, 320 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 1: it really is. You and I both are former college students. 321 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: We've been to off campus housing and you know how 322 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: weird some of that stuff is because you know, they 323 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: just kind of add on, they stick things. You know, 324 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: it's not like you're going out to I don't know, 325 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: it's not like you're going to standard neighborhood most of 326 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: the time, where everything makes sense and everything, you know, 327 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: it looks well ordered. Not you know, they add things 328 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: on because they're trying to get as many people into 329 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: a structure as they can to make money. And there's 330 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that if you're a land lord. But 331 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: this thing, you gotta you gotta admit it's bizarre. You know, 332 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: you got essentially two main entrances for this thing. You 333 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: got one on the lower that's built into this to 334 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: the bank where you're walking into the basement, backed by 335 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: the parking pad, and you got these sliders up there, 336 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: you got the windows. How is it that you're gonna 337 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: this thing? When I when I saw Dave and I 338 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: saw some of the the uh A schematics for you know, 339 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: how the whole thing, the floor plan rather it is 340 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: a better way to put it, how it's all laid out, 341 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: It looks it kind of looked like a maze, like 342 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, and and not just that, how are you 343 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: gonna you're talking about something that this is occurring in 344 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: the wee hours, so it's got to be dark in 345 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 1: the dark. You know, how are you going to navigate 346 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: this environment in the darkness with these weird twisting turns? 347 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: And from a jury perspective, that's valuable information. How powerful 348 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: would it be to take a jury out to that 349 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: location as a matter of fact, from a let's just 350 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: argue for the defense for a second. Let's just say, look, 351 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: how do my client do this? You know, he's never 352 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: been in the building before. Look, you know we're going 353 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: to turn the lights off now, ladies and gentlemen. Now 354 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: let's try to make our way up the stairs and 355 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: try to figure out how easy or difficult this would 356 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: be to facilitate this. I'm not saying that they would 357 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: do that, but even if they wanted to, they can't 358 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: do it now. 359 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 3: And here's the other part, Joe, imagine this talking about 360 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 3: evidence that they find in the building, which we know 361 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 3: they have found some we know they have found DNA, 362 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 3: we know where they have found other things inside this 363 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 3: building that is going to come up. 364 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: You think about it from the perspective of the perception 365 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: of whoever was still housed in the dwelling after these 366 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: when these events were going on, and if they were 367 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: an ear witness to these events, how could they not 368 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: have heard something? And again that opportunity is gone because 369 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: you don't have well, first off, you don't have there's 370 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: no way to even perceive it at this point in time. 371 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 1: There's no way to appreciate the idea of I think. 372 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: And this goes to distribution of blood in particular, because 373 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: one of the things that we do know day that 374 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: was stated early on and I can't remember if it 375 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: was the corner who I have a whole other set 376 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: of issues with, because they were talking early on about 377 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: this against you know, they were not supposed to be 378 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: speaking out of turn here they were going they were 379 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: making these comments, you know, which was shocking to me 380 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: early on. We do know according to them that this 381 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: is a very bloody scene. How do you make it 382 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: through here without deposition of blood in other locations? Because 383 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 1: if you're walking through a location that is you know, 384 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: this is my I'm just inserting this word is in blood. 385 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: If you're going in and checking out, how is it 386 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: that you're not tracking trace evidence around? Why is it 387 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: that there's no other evidence that can point back to 388 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: an individual? And this goes to I'm not arguing for 389 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: the accused here. What I am saying, though, is that 390 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: for anybody that is looking to defend someone, the fact 391 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: that you can argue in a manner that could do 392 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: that could greatly benefit your case, because you know what, 393 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 1: when there is nothing that you can turn back to, 394 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: there's always the possibility of planning to see for reasonable doubt. 395 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: I think that it's important that we look at I 396 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: would say three areas that I hope that they have 397 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 1: effectively documented relative to how they're going to play this 398 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: narrative out absent the home now, because you know, look, 399 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: it's one thing if you and I are in a 400 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: meeting day and I've got a way to illustrate a 401 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: meeting where you can visually see it, and a lot 402 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: of it goes to what kind of learner you are? 403 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: You know, my wife is always thrown around the term 404 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: that she's a kinesthetic learner, which she you know, hands 405 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: on that sort of stuff. But you know, if you're 406 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 1: a visual learner, you know, I think that we've effectively 407 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: argued the position here that that opportunity is gone. So 408 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: what did you do you being the authorities, what did 409 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: you do at the scene before the place was torn down, 410 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: to document the place in totality so that you're going 411 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: to take this and present it to the jury. I 412 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: actually had one person that came to me and said, well, 413 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: the FBI is talking about completely restructuring or or doing 414 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: uh mocking, mocking this building out and recreating the thing. 415 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, really that that's that's what they're going 416 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: to do. They're going to do it digitally. Is that 417 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: what you're talking about? Well, you maybe you can do 418 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: that digitally, maybe it'd be wonderful. But I tell you this, 419 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: if if you think for two seconds this thing is 420 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: going to be like the Holid deck on the Star 421 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: trek Uss Enterprise, you're going to be sadly disappointed because 422 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: it's not going to be like that. You're going to 423 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: lose all sense of relationship between things. And so I 424 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: think that we have to first off, understand we've talked 425 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: about sound, how to sound travel through a structure? How 426 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: are you going to document that? To entertain possibilities of 427 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: what could and could not have been heard? We have 428 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: to think about timing relative to how long would it 429 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,400 Speaker 1: take from one point from the starting point to make 430 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: entry into the home. If in fact, and this is 431 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: a big if because we don't know where the sliders open. 432 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: Did the perpetrator make entry through the sliders? Was there 433 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: some other way that they made entry? You know, we 434 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: talked about the food delivery that was made to Miss Kernodle. 435 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: How do we know that that didn't play a part 436 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: in this because that's in a different location than say, 437 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: for instance, where the sliders are. And then from sliders, 438 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: how do you make your way through the house? How 439 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: is it possible? And then I think one of the 440 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: things that really stands out to me, you know how 441 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: I was mentioned Parkland just a moment ago, we had 442 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: they had literally left that scene frozen in time with 443 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: the distribution of blood and all those sorts of things 444 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: we're talking about out the deaths of these four young 445 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: people in their bedrooms, and this goes to the dynamics 446 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: of blood distribution that's not going to be there if 447 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: there was blood stains on the wall, for instance, and 448 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 1: their dynamic blood stains, which I mean, we're talking about 449 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: everything from cast off where you're you know, you think 450 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: about dipping a paint brush in a bucket of painting 451 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: and throwing it against the wall. That's how it happens. 452 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: If you take a sharp instrument, dip it in blood 453 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: and kind of cast it off as you're stabbing or 454 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: on the ceiling, that's gone arterial spray. If you've clipped 455 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: an artery and that spraying on the wall, well, where 456 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: is that in relation to where the body was found? 457 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,239 Speaker 1: And can you connect those two things? And then you 458 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 1: have this issue of transfer blood. Well, if you're talking 459 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: about an individual that is placing their hands and you're 460 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: gonna have commingled blood everywhere, commingle which means you've got 461 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: four victims, you're essentially mixing this blood together as you're 462 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,239 Speaker 1: going through this process. I talked about this early on, 463 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: where whoever has the least amount of transferred DNA to 464 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: their body is probably going to be the first victim. Okay, 465 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: So if you have victim a that has little or 466 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: no DNA from another person in the house, say they're 467 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: on two different floors, you're using the same weapon. Assuming 468 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: that they're using the same weapon, you're not going to 469 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: be able to appreciate appreciate the dynamics of how that 470 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: blood issued forth from the victims. Are they going to 471 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: take the mattresses from the beds and bring them into 472 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: the courtroom. That has happened before, That has absolutely happened before. 473 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: Items from the bedroom. Is that gonna okay, Well, let's 474 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,719 Speaker 1: say that you do bring in the headboard from a 475 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: bed and you've got what appears to be blood that 476 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: has been asked off on it. Okay, you can bring 477 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: that in there. 478 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: You're taking that out of content, you are. 479 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: Taking that out of context, and look, understanding they would 480 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: have had to have removed the headboard and examined it 481 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: in the lab. But if you don't have a way 482 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: a facsimile to demonstrate that, and not just the fac simile, 483 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: but the physical structure to say, okay, the bed was 484 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: positioned right here, do you understand, and it's right here 485 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: in this position we have if you reflect back, we 486 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: showed you the images here. The images again of the 487 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: bed and how it's demonstrated are dispersed on the head 488 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: of the headboard of the bed and it's on the 489 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: wall adjacent to it. This is what our expert beliefs happened. Well, 490 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: you can't do that. You can't go back to that, 491 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: and that's just the dynamic distribution of the blood. What 492 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: about if we've got passive where people are putting. You know, 493 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: you're lifting your body, you're transferring blood from your hands 494 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: because you're trying to leverage your body weight to get 495 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: out of a place. What about passive dripping, Well, what 496 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: they're saying is that same weapon involved, well the same 497 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: weapon involved. If they start on the top floor, come 498 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: down the stairs, are they dripping blood from the tip 499 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: of the knife blade or off of their person onto 500 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: the carpeted surface of the staircase And it leads into 501 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: where Ethan and Miss kernodle war. Is that that's gone 502 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: in totality as well. You're not going to be able 503 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: to appreciate that. Is there a moment where more blood 504 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: was dripped in one location, like someone's pausing to stop 505 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: to think that they hear something, and then they progress 506 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: on and then another attack initiates. Oh that's gone. You 507 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: don't have that. You don't have it at all. 508 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: When you and I talked about this earlier, I brought 509 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 3: up the case of Jeffrey McDonald, the Yeah Army Green 510 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: Beret doctor Fatsion. 511 00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there you go. 512 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 3: February nineteen, he claimed a group of hippies came into 513 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 3: his house on base in Fayetville, North Carolina and five 514 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 3: point forty four Castle Drive. The reason I know this 515 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 3: because I watched the trial very carefully. When it happened 516 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 3: nine years after the fact. February nineteen seventy was only 517 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 3: months after the Manson murders, the Tayla Bianca murders. Oh, 518 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 3: and so there was a lot of talk about this, 519 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 3: and many people believe that Jeffrey McDonald got his idea 520 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 3: of the hippies from those murders. 521 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: Right. 522 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 3: Jeffery McDonald's pregnant wife, Colette, and his two young daughters, 523 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 3: Kimmy and Christy, were both were all three murdered in 524 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: that house. A pregnant mother and her two small children 525 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: were murdered in that home, murdered with an ice pick. 526 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 3: There was blood everywhere, and that crime scene stood for 527 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 3: nine years, Joe, until they could have a trial. They 528 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 3: had already gone through the military process, an Article thirty 529 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 3: two hearing where they discovered that, okay, McDonald maybe didn't 530 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 3: do it. We're not going to further prosecute this. And 531 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 3: it was only brought up in criminal court because of 532 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 3: Colette's stepfather, Freddy Causab pushing it. And it did go 533 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 3: to trial in North Carolina, and Jeffrey McDonald was found 534 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 3: guilty of murdering his pregnant wife and his two young daughters. 535 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 3: But one of the things that happened it was nine 536 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 3: years later. He was a successful doctor in southern California. 537 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 3: He was a good looking young guy. People couldn't believe 538 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 3: this wonderful, nice man could have ever done. A Green 539 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 3: Beret doctor wouldn't kill his family. But the jury, they 540 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 3: were able to go back to that house nine years 541 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 3: after the murder. They were able to walk into this 542 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 3: home to look at the size of it and to imagine, 543 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 3: could hippies have really come in here and done this 544 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 3: in this small of a space. Neighbors are all very 545 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 3: close together, there's patrols going by all the time, the noise, 546 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 3: somebody would have heard it. They were able to go 547 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 3: through that because the crime scene was still in existence. 548 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 3: They were able to see it. No pictures, no drawings. 549 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 3: Pictures and drawings, by the way, are there. They have 550 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 3: those two. But they actually got to see it with 551 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 3: their own eyes. And I think it mattered. 552 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: It does matter, and it's powerful stuff. It's powerful stuff. 553 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: Anytime you can introduce the jury into an environment like this, 554 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: so that they begin to appreciate form and function of 555 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: a structure where an event took place. You know, if 556 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: you have a mass homicide that takes place in an 557 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: open field, it's really hard to appreciate the dynamics of that. 558 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: It can happen anywhere, you know. It's like, you know, 559 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: if you go to visit a Civil War battlefield, even 560 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: if you go to Gettysburg. You know, you believe what 561 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: they tell you about what happened there, but it's so vast, 562 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: it's so broad that you can't really understand it in 563 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: a way that walking into a home where lives have 564 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: been lived, where parties were had, where people got to 565 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: know one another and to be friends, that's gone. It's 566 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: gone forever and ever. And that goes to the heart 567 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: of this case, because this case was about the relationships 568 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: that these people, these young people had developed wild college 569 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: students and the environment that they were in in Idaho, 570 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: living and learning together. I just hope, I just hope 571 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: that the right decision has been made. I'm Joseph Scott 572 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body Bags