WEBVTT - #513 Jason Flom with James Watson 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:06.240 Just after four am on November sixteenth, nineteen seventy nine, 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:10.160 in front of a Boston housing project, some neighbors heard 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:12.559 a commotion and saw a group of three men from 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.440 a distance, rob and Batley shoot a cab driver. Another 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.520 cab driver came forward and claimed to have witnessed the 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.439 very moment when the assailants first hailed the cab in 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:28.160 downtown Boston, and after hypnosis, the caby identified sixteen year 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.920 old Fred Clay and twenty year old James Watson as 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.360 two of the three assailants. Then the witnesses from the 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:38.080 scene agreed, resulting in the two young men being sent 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:49.760 away for life. This is wrongful conviction. You're listening to 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.560 wrongful conviction. You can listen to this and all the 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.760 Lava for Good podcasts one week early and ad free 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:05.360 by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.000 Welcome back to Ronfuel Conviction. We're going to go back 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.240 to Boston for the nineteen seventy nine robbery and murder 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:16.240 of a taxi driver when both public and private pressure 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.119 produced some very dubious witnesses, and two young men were 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:23.560 sacrificed to alleviate that pressure. Let's call it what it is. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.360 We originally covered this story back in twenty nineteen with 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.080 Fred Clay, the co defendant of our guest today, mister 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.600 James Watson. James, thanks for joining us. Yes, a new problem, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.399 and with him is his appellate attorney, Barb Monroe. Barb, 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:38.520 thanks for doing this. 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:40.760 Thank you for having me now, James. 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:41.720 You grew up in Boston, right. 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.440 I've been to Boston all my life, born and raised 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.000 with my mother and two brothers and two sisters. My 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.080 father he did not stay with us, but there was 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.000 another man that dead live with us, which is my baby. 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:55.160 Sister's father, Joe. 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:59.040 And he drank a lot and he picked frice at 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.600 my mother and one day he slapped my mother in 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.640 the mouth. And I had to be around nine to ten. 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.040 I lost it and I went in the kitchen and 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.560 I got every can I can possibly get out the 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.280 cabinet and used it to throw metal and I lost 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:16.600 the fight. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:17.840 But he had bruises. 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.720 He had bruises, so we moved from bluehoo Ave to 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.960 Orchard Pop to get away from him, and he found 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.320 us and the guy came. He came in and knocked 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.119 on the door. I ain't see him in a long time, 0:02:30.200 --> 0:02:32.800 so I actually he really didn't recognize him. But he 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.720 knocked on the door and my mother opened the door, 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.280 and I heard her say, how did you find me? 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:42.120 And he said, I want to see my daughter, and 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.239 my mother said, you don't supposed to be here. That's 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.480 when I realized that's Joe, that's the basket. 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:48.880 You know. 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.519 I'm much older now, you know, I was about fifteen sixteen, 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.880 and I've told my buddy, I said, let's kick his ass, 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.359 you know what I mean, Let's whoop his ass. But 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:01.959 my sister, she was young. She said, I want to 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:04.320 see my daddy. So that's what stopped me from in 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:05.240 his ass. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.640 The family moved again, this time to the Archdale Housing 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.560 Projects in Roslindale, and over the next few years, James's 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.200 photo ended up in the system for a petty theft, 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.760 and he also met his son's mother, Diane Moses. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:23.000 I met Diane in nineteen seventy seven. 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.640 It was only together for like two years before all 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.520 this happened. She had two kids already, you boy and 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.760 a girl, and then she got pregnant with my son, 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.240 Don Juan Moses. He was thirteen months at the time 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.040 before this crime happened. I was on top of the 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.600 world when he was born. I was so full of 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:47.080 joy it happiness to have a son. Everybody loved him, 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.040 especially the women. The girl loved him. 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.840 And this brings us to the faithful night of November sixteenth, 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.320 nineteen seventy nine, just a little after four am, when 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.880 a twenty eight year old cab driver named Jeffrey Boyegian 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.360 was dropping off of fair at the Archdale Housing projects 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.840 and twenty five year old neighbor Neil Sweat described what 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:08.120 he saw from his window. 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.880 A cab shows up and it's dark. It's about at 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.400 least eighty feet from where the cab is to where 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.960 this young man is looking out the window, and he 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.480 sees a cab driver getting pulled out of the cab. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.080 And he sees three black men. Two is tall, one 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.160 was small, and then he sees the shorter one shoot 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.480 the cab driver five times and then they took off. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.560 He had called another person who was there to go 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.440 to work with him to come look out the window 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:36.200 as well. 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.560 And the other young man was named Ben Brown. 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.600 Ben Brown he used to pick Sweat up to go 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.440 to work because Sweat couldn't read the size on the bus, 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.279 and they get on the bus together and ride up 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.160 to Rossendale Square. The whole family couldn't read it right. 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:50.320 The mother couldn't read it right. 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:55.000 This young man who witnessed this had some severe intellectual disabilities. 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.400 And his mother was also there, and she looked out 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.960 and she saw whatever she saw, and she also had 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.440 severe intellectual disabilities as well. 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.640 And the mother's name was Philippa Sweat, and being eighty 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.760 feet away with the aid of only one street light, 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.880 the Sweats were only confident that the assailants wore leather jackets. 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.480 The two were tall and one was small, but they 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.880 weren't confident in their ability to identify them. Meanwhile, the 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:24.600 police continued their canvas. 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.280 I was home sleep and the detectives came and knocked 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.159 on my door, and yes, did I hear anything or 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.400 did I see anything? I said, No, I was four 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:37.279 in the morning. No, I was in latter Land. 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.080 I was sleeping. I did not hear anything. 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.280 James had a thirteen month old son, so it's more 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.080 likely that he'd be getting every minute of sleep that 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.760 he could rather than staying out till four am and 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.200 committing a robbery and murder. With two other guys, one 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.159 of whom bred Clay. He only knew through his would 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:55.040 be mother in law. 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.560 His mother used to hang out with Diane's mother, and 0:05:58.600 --> 0:05:59.839 that's how I knew Freddy. 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.680 I never hung out with this kid. He wasn't even sixteen. 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:06.000 Plus Freddie lived at a foster home, not at the projects, 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.800 and perhaps both of their relationships with the system played 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.679 into how they were singled out. When another cab driver 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.760 named Richard Dwyer came forward that Friday morning with a 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:18.360 story which started out with some naked racism. 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:23.320 Supposedly, this cab driver saw three black men in the 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.039 red light district down on Washington Street. He put his 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.520 meter on to look that he was busy, So the 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.440 three black men get into a cab. In the cab left, 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.200 and then the next day is when the cab driver 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.119 allegedly sees a picture in the paper of the cab 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.200 that Jeffrey had been driving, and he remembers the cab 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.159 as the one he saw these three black men get into. 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.120 But this shooting happened around four a m. And that 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.560 morning's newspaper had already been printed. So no, mister Dwyer, 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.640 you didn't recognize the licensed number of Jeffrey Boyagian's cab 0:06:55.680 --> 0:07:00.360 in the newspaper. You couldn't have and it's possible that Dwyer, well, 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.960 he could have been motivated by some understandable fear among 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.440 cab drivers and their business interests. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.480 The day that James was arrested, there was an article 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.480 in the paper as well about the cab drivers being 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:15.520 upset that there was not enough done about the shooting 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.200 and there's been a lot of shootings and they were 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.560 saying if it was a police getting shot, they'd be 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.360 doing something. So there was a lot of pressure on 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.720 the police to get this taken care of as well. 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:28.120 So now, as an alleged eyewitness, Dwyer met with Boston 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.720 Police officer Patrick Brady, who had taken a number of 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.200 hypnotism courses, and at some point Dwyer was also shown 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:35.240 some photo arrays. 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.920 They hypnotize him and they tell him that it's like 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:42.080 a video recording, so he can stop the frame when 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.880 he sees the men who were getting into the cab, 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:48.680 and the particular man that he focused in on was 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.680 allegedly James, because he was the polite gentleman letting the 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:53.960 other two in the cab at least he was polite 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.440 and he could describe him, and he described allegedly Fred 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.000 as well. Couldn't really describe the third person. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.440 And I think anyone with a human brain can recognize 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.239 that their memories do not work like an on demand 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:10.320 video streaming service with zoom capabilities. But there's even more. 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:15.240 The order of photo viewing and hypnotism is also very important. 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.440 This was going to be a case of first impression 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:22.680 whether hypnotic identifications would be admissible in Massachusetts. So they 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:26.760 knew that if the testimony came out that he had 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:30.480 looked at the photographs after he was hypnotized, it would 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.440 be an admissible What they said happened was that he 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.560 was shown photographs of I think it was sixteen random 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:42.320 black men from the projects, and he chose James and Fred. 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.360 Now allegedly they said this happened before he was hypnotized. 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.559 The reality that we find out when we did our 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.640 investigation was that did not happen that way. So they 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.520 had the change in narrative that he made the identification 0:08:55.760 --> 0:09:00.599 untainted by any hypnosis. So the hypnotism in itself is 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.440 junk science. But the fact that the prosecutor, we believe 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.160 lied and we have found evidence in the DA files 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.520 that showed that he did. It's pretty problematic. 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:15.080 Perhaps the prospect of using hypnotic identifications going forward was 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.280 just too alluring. Luckily for all of us, the president 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.560 was not established. However, The doctor narrative was that Dwyer 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.719 made a tentative idea of James and Fred from sixteen 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.520 photos of local black men before being hypnotized and then 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:32.320 making a confident identification of both, which also raises the 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.559 specter of solidifying a false memory. Either way, the police 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.520 sought support for this dubious ID process. 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.920 They have took Diane down to the police station that 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.640 Friday of the crime. I didn't know that, and she 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:48.959 never told me that. They pulled her over and took 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:50.680 it down to the station. I had to find out 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.640 down the road. They threatened to give us seven years 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.600 and frame him, take her kids from him, and cut 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:58.360 her off public aid. If you try to give your 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.439 boyfriend a fucking alibi, That's what he told me. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:04.559 Despite Diane naming alternate suspects who were known for similar 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.000 crimes and had been wearing leather jackets, she was being 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.320 coerced into implicating James. But at this time she hadn't 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.079 yet committed to helping the police. 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.720 So after that they had me down the station Saturday Sunday. 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.319 You know, I'm telling them I wasn't there. I didn't 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.720 do this. I got a kid man, I did not 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:26.920 rob no cab driver. I was not downtown four o'clock 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.679 in the morning to take a burlow. He said, are 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:33.080 you willing to take a polygraph test? I said, listen, man, 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.800 I'll take a polygraph test, drug syrup, whatever you want 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.360 me to do that make you understand that I'm telling 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:40.000 you the truth. 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:41.960 I didn't do this. I wouldn't do this. 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.240 And he said, okay, we'll do the polygraph one o'clock Monday, 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:47.480 so he let me leave. 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.000 Meanwhile, they had been talking to philipp and Neil Sweat. 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:55.240 They start interviewing the Sweats and showing them photographs and 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:57.520 this went on over the course of the entire weekend. 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:00.640 Well come to find out that the Sweats wanted to 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.520 move out of the projects for a long time because 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.200 they were one of the few white families living there 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:10.720 and they wanted to move to the white projects. So finally, 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:16.439 by Monday, they convinced mister Sweat that he could identify 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.240 mister Watson and mister Clay and he did. Fred was 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:23.880 the gunman and James was just there to assist and 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.199 the third person who knows, And they moved them. 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.880 And they tried to use hypnosis with Neil Sweat as well. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.439 They did, but because of his intellectual disabilities his concentration, 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:36.040 it didn't go so well. 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.800 At this time, Philippus Wett was not willing to join 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.080 her son in making an ID. Meanwhile, James still thought 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:45.320 a polygraph would prove his innocence, but Detective Burlow didn't 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:48.400 come to get him until late Monday evening, without his partner, 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.400 but rather some mystery man who left. When they arrived 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.120 at the precinct and James was brought inside. 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.360 I'm sitting in the office and it's just me, Detective 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.440 Burlow and Detective Paul Carroll. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:01.679 He said, what would wrong man? You know what I mean? 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:03.880 Why did you kill him? This is supposed to be for 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:05.640 a parograph. I didn't do this. 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.440 And then he said you've been identified. I said what 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:11.720 he said, you've been identified. 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.120 So get the fuck out of here. I said, who 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.120 identified me? Who let me see him? 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:15.439 Who? 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:16.360 You know? 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:17.439 You've been identified? 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.200 And you being book for murder booked me, fingerprint me, 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:26.080 took me to Child Street jail and that's where I 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.040 remained for twenty three months. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.840 This episode of wrongful conviction is proudly sponsored by Erase 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:46.760 PTSD Now. Every day, countless individuals face the invisible wounds 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.440 of trauma and PTSD. Your support empowers us to provide 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.720 life changing treatments like the Stella Ganglion Block SGB, which 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.480 inhibits nerve impulses and helps to restore hope, reclaim lives, 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.960 and save lives after incarceration. Together, we can ensure that 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.400 those wrongfully convicted receive the care they need to heal 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.720 and reintegrate into society. Join us in this mission to 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:14.679 erase PTSD and uplift our communities. Visit erase PTSD now 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:19.240 dot org. That's erase PTSD now dot org for more 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.360 information and ways to get involved. 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.559 Freddie they made him my coat defended, which I didn't 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.200 know of. I happened to be in Childbree playing cards. 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.880 He came to hild freet and I said, damn, Freddie, 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:35.720 what they get you for? Oh, I'm in here for 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.800 the same thing you are. I said what, Yeah, they said, 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:39.480 I shot the gun. 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.400 I said, oh shit. Later on they came and they 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:43.040 pulled him out. 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:47.959 Of child speat, and then the lawyer came up. He said, look, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.600 they don't want you right, they want Freddy. You know me, 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.800 They want to shoot it if you testify against Freddie. 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.560 The DA said he'd give you time serve and cut 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:00.640 your loose. But all you have to do was testified 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:02.920 against Frederick Clay. 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.720 Who was a sixteen year old child at that time. 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.640 Yeah, was a baby, he was a kid. He was 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.160 locked up in a Foster home under lock and key. 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.360 The woman name was Missus Kings. He was living in 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.440 the Foster home. Well, the only way you can get 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:16.720 out the house is use a key to open the 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:17.640 door from the inside. 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:19.840 And if you'd like to hear Fred's side of this story, 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:22.440 and I hope you will, we're gonna link his interview 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.320 in the episode of description. So anyway, neither of them 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:29.160 took a deal. Oddly, they didn't apply more pressure on James, 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:32.680 considering the options time served or death. 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:36.680 I didn't know about the death penalty stat too until 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.640 I went for my arraignment and Timothy o'dneill, I'll never 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.160 forget that, bastard. He asked, Judge Irwin, I can never 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.760 forget that as long as as I live. He said, 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.680 I like to indict mister Watson under the death penalty 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.160 status here on due to the nature of the crime 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.920 and the underlining felony the robbery. And Judge Irwin put 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.600 his glasses down over his big fucking nose and said, granted, 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:03.560 I said death finality. What now, I'm scared. I'm sure 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:05.960 you know. I mean, I'm growing gray heads at a 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:06.840 very early age. 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.880 Ten months. Ten months he sat in jail knowing that 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.520 he was facing the death penalty until they took it 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:14.880 to court, and then with a case that bears his 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.840 name and three others, they found that the death penalty 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:20.080 is unconstitutional. 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.280 Yeah, this is one of those cases that abolished the 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:28.160 death penalty in Massachusetts. But not knowing this outcome, James 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:33.120 still didn't waiver. It's amazing. Unfortunately, Diane Moses had her 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.760 children to think of, so she agreed to help the police. 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.160 I found that out when I'm sitting in child Street. 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:44.520 And then Frank Color, her trinity, came up, said Diane, 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:49.280 your girlfriend Moses is going to testify against you, saying 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.080 that you told her you was there, but you didn't 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.480 do the shoot. I said, what, I never told her that. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:55.960 Well, that's what she's going to testify to. 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.800 And if you want to mean change, I ain't changing shit. 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.720 I did not do this. I did not kill nobody. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.480 I would never kill nobody or let nobody be killed. 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.760 But anyway I had to find out down the road 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.920 they threatened her. I'm saying, wow, they must already did 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:13.680 a job on her. So I'm missing my son, and 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.280 I told my sister. I said, joint, go down over there, 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.360 get my son and bring him up here to visit me. 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.600 So she goes down to the apartment. The apartment is empty. 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:24.160 They took her and moved the down south you mean 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:28.360 like South Boston, Georgia, Georgia. And that's where she stayed 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.600 until trial. Now, even though Fred was the alleged shooter, 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.920 both Fred and James were charged with first degree murder, 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.520 which later became an issue that won James a new trial, 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:41.200 but either way, the first trial proceeded in August of 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:42.640 nineteen eighty one. 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.240 Fred and James were tried together and there was no 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:50.600 physical evidence, and Nil Sweat identified them with his magical 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:55.880 powers of sight, and Richard Dwyer came in and identified 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:58.760 both of them, and so he had everyone believing that 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.400 they had made this initial identification free of hypnotism. 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.800 And then he spoke about how his hypnotism session was 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.840 like watching a movie of the assailants getting into Jeffrey 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:09.840 Boyegian's cab. 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.399 Yes, he said, it was like being at the movie, 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.080 you know, I mean, he can picture it clearly that Yes, 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.280 this is the guy saw he said. We walked there 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.400 at New across the street. I opened the door, let 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.800 the other two get in, and then I walked around, 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.000 looked him in the face, and then got into the 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:30.600 cop and the cab drove off. 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:34.800 Then Boston Police Officer Patrick Brady was sworn in as 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:42.040 an expert investigative hypnologist. Okay, and he testified that the 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.920 mind can take mental pictures that are encoded in the brain. 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:53.960 I'm pausing here because I'm losing my shit, okay, deep breath. 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.960 Then the state also presented an LAPD psychologist, a guy 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.919 named Martin Riser, who testified the the mind works like 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:05.159 a giant computerized videotape recording. I mean, fuck off with 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:09.040 this shit. And anyway, the defense presented their own expert, 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.920 a doctor named Martin Orn who said that this tape 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:15.920 recorder theory of human memory has no scientific support, because 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.879 of course it doesn't. And then the state called Ben Brown. 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.080 Ben Brown didn't testify against me. 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.280 He testified at the first trial, and he was technically 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.600 an adverse witness for the Commonwealth. He did say he 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.399 saw two people pull the cab driver out, but he 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.480 didn't recognize the shooter, and he testified that it was 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:36.359 not James, that he didn't see him out there. 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.560 So Fred and James both testified in their own defense, 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.480 saying that they'd had nothing to do with this shooting. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.399 But then Diane Moses took the stand. 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:47.920 She said, I told her that I was dead and 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.560 that he didn't do the shooting, and she said this, 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.960 He said, we are not going to tell the police 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.480 anything else. I said, we, Who the hell are you 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:57.119 talking about? 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:57.280 We? 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:58.960 She was implicating herself. 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:01.520 That's how scared she was, you know, because to find out, 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:03.440 they kept irrastioning every time they saw her. 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:07.840 So the trial wrapped up with two alleged eyewitness ideas 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:13.320 opposing expert testimonial hypnosis, followed by Diane Moses with this 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:14.560 alleged confession. 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:18.399 They came back with a question that Jermy said, Judge, 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.280 can you define first degree murder? Judge says, you read 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.080 the evidence, you got the record going back and into 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.400 the right with it, so he wouldn't answer their question. 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.439 And they went back there and came back guilty, guilty 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.119 of first green murder, and the judge sent you to 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.320 your natural life and state better tentiaries. 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:36.280 That was it. 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:54.600 That's like from the guilty they should be back to 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.040 child Street because they didn't have the room in Wallpole. 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.000 The bids were full, so I stayed into child Street 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.399 and after the next night they shipped me off the 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.240 Wallpole about six thirty at night, and I ended up 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:09.080 steeping in the dayroom on a cot. The cot had 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.800 to be about four feet five feet and I'm six six. 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.159 And the next day you went out, got up, stand 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.240 up for count, and get up the win for breakfast. 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.240 And when I went to the child hall, a lot 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:23.080 of people recognize me because some of the guys in 0:20:23.119 --> 0:20:26.040 there were older guys, which you call o gez. You 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.600 know knew my dad, if someone knew my uncle. They 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:30.440 schooled me on what was going down. You know, I mean, 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.120 you have any problems, you let us know. Don't hang 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.480 with that group. Don't sit at that table. You know, 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.480 you get the don't cut sit you know, sit with us. 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:40.840 It was crazy. I was only weighing one hundred and 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.919 seventy pounds. I was scared to death. Ain't gonna bullshit you. 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:44.360 You know what I mean? 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:46.760 You know, because I heard all the rumors about Walpole, 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.159 you know, finding bodies two days later and they was 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.040 raping guys, and you know what I mean, said, damn man, 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.199 I got to get through this. I didn't know if 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.600 I won't get through to that. I wasn't contemplating on 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.480 killing myself, but I said, I'm gonna have to learn 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:03.920 how to be a fighting motherfucker and fight. 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.679