1
00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,240
Speaker 1: Just after four am on November sixteenth, nineteen seventy nine,

2
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,160
Speaker 1: in front of a Boston housing project, some neighbors heard

3
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,559
Speaker 1: a commotion and saw a group of three men from

4
00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,440
Speaker 1: a distance, rob and Batley shoot a cab driver. Another

5
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,520
Speaker 1: cab driver came forward and claimed to have witnessed the

6
00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,439
Speaker 1: very moment when the assailants first hailed the cab in

7
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,160
Speaker 1: downtown Boston, and after hypnosis, the caby identified sixteen year

8
00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,920
Speaker 1: old Fred Clay and twenty year old James Watson as

9
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,360
Speaker 1: two of the three assailants. Then the witnesses from the

10
00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,080
Speaker 1: scene agreed, resulting in the two young men being sent

11
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 1: away for life. This is wrongful conviction. You're listening to

12
00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,560
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. You can listen to this and all the

13
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,760
Speaker 1: Lava for Good podcasts one week early and ad free

14
00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:05,360
Speaker 1: by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.

15
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,000
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Ronfuel Conviction. We're going to go back

16
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 1: to Boston for the nineteen seventy nine robbery and murder

17
00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 1: of a taxi driver when both public and private pressure

18
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,119
Speaker 1: produced some very dubious witnesses, and two young men were

19
00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 1: sacrificed to alleviate that pressure. Let's call it what it is.

20
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,360
Speaker 1: We originally covered this story back in twenty nineteen with

21
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,080
Speaker 1: Fred Clay, the co defendant of our guest today, mister

22
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,600
Speaker 1: James Watson. James, thanks for joining us. Yes, a new problem,

23
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,399
Speaker 1: and with him is his appellate attorney, Barb Monroe. Barb,

24
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:38,520
Speaker 1: thanks for doing this.

25
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me now, James.

26
00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:41,720
Speaker 1: You grew up in Boston, right.

27
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,440
Speaker 3: I've been to Boston all my life, born and raised

28
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 3: with my mother and two brothers and two sisters. My

29
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,080
Speaker 3: father he did not stay with us, but there was

30
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,000
Speaker 3: another man that dead live with us, which is my baby.

31
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 4: Sister's father, Joe.

32
00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,040
Speaker 3: And he drank a lot and he picked frice at

33
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 3: my mother and one day he slapped my mother in

34
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 3: the mouth. And I had to be around nine to ten.

35
00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,040
Speaker 3: I lost it and I went in the kitchen and

36
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,560
Speaker 3: I got every can I can possibly get out the

37
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 3: cabinet and used it to throw metal and I lost

38
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:16,600
Speaker 3: the fight.

39
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:17,840
Speaker 4: But he had bruises.

40
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,720
Speaker 3: He had bruises, so we moved from bluehoo Ave to

41
00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 3: Orchard Pop to get away from him, and he found

42
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,320
Speaker 3: us and the guy came. He came in and knocked

43
00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,119
Speaker 3: on the door. I ain't see him in a long time,

44
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,800
Speaker 3: so I actually he really didn't recognize him. But he

45
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 3: knocked on the door and my mother opened the door,

46
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,280
Speaker 3: and I heard her say, how did you find me?

47
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,120
Speaker 3: And he said, I want to see my daughter, and

48
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,239
Speaker 3: my mother said, you don't supposed to be here. That's

49
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,480
Speaker 3: when I realized that's Joe, that's the basket.

50
00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:48,880
Speaker 4: You know.

51
00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,519
Speaker 3: I'm much older now, you know, I was about fifteen sixteen,

52
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,880
Speaker 3: and I've told my buddy, I said, let's kick his ass,

53
00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,359
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Let's whoop his ass. But

54
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,959
Speaker 3: my sister, she was young. She said, I want to

55
00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 3: see my daddy. So that's what stopped me from in

56
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:05,240
Speaker 3: his ass.

57
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,640
Speaker 1: The family moved again, this time to the Archdale Housing

58
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,560
Speaker 1: Projects in Roslindale, and over the next few years, James's

59
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 1: photo ended up in the system for a petty theft,

60
00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 1: and he also met his son's mother, Diane Moses.

61
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,000
Speaker 4: I met Diane in nineteen seventy seven.

62
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,640
Speaker 3: It was only together for like two years before all

63
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,520
Speaker 3: this happened. She had two kids already, you boy and

64
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,760
Speaker 3: a girl, and then she got pregnant with my son,

65
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,240
Speaker 3: Don Juan Moses. He was thirteen months at the time

66
00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,040
Speaker 3: before this crime happened. I was on top of the

67
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,600
Speaker 3: world when he was born. I was so full of

68
00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:47,080
Speaker 3: joy it happiness to have a son. Everybody loved him,

69
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,040
Speaker 3: especially the women. The girl loved him.

70
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 1: And this brings us to the faithful night of November sixteenth,

71
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, just a little after four am, when

72
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 1: a twenty eight year old cab driver named Jeffrey Boyegian

73
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,360
Speaker 1: was dropping off of fair at the Archdale Housing projects

74
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,840
Speaker 1: and twenty five year old neighbor Neil Sweat described what

75
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 1: he saw from his window.

76
00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,880
Speaker 2: A cab shows up and it's dark. It's about at

77
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,400
Speaker 2: least eighty feet from where the cab is to where

78
00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,960
Speaker 2: this young man is looking out the window, and he

79
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,480
Speaker 2: sees a cab driver getting pulled out of the cab.

80
00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 2: And he sees three black men. Two is tall, one

81
00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,160
Speaker 2: was small, and then he sees the shorter one shoot

82
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 2: the cab driver five times and then they took off.

83
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,560
Speaker 2: He had called another person who was there to go

84
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 2: to work with him to come look out the window

85
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 2: as well.

86
00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,560
Speaker 1: And the other young man was named Ben Brown.

87
00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,600
Speaker 3: Ben Brown he used to pick Sweat up to go

88
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,440
Speaker 3: to work because Sweat couldn't read the size on the bus,

89
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,279
Speaker 3: and they get on the bus together and ride up

90
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,160
Speaker 3: to Rossendale Square. The whole family couldn't read it right.

91
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:50,320
Speaker 3: The mother couldn't read it right.

92
00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 2: This young man who witnessed this had some severe intellectual disabilities.

93
00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,400
Speaker 2: And his mother was also there, and she looked out

94
00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,960
Speaker 2: and she saw whatever she saw, and she also had

95
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 2: severe intellectual disabilities as well.

96
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,640
Speaker 1: And the mother's name was Philippa Sweat, and being eighty

97
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,760
Speaker 1: feet away with the aid of only one street light,

98
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 1: the Sweats were only confident that the assailants wore leather jackets.

99
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,480
Speaker 1: The two were tall and one was small, but they

100
00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,880
Speaker 1: weren't confident in their ability to identify them. Meanwhile, the

101
00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:24,600
Speaker 1: police continued their canvas.

102
00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,280
Speaker 3: I was home sleep and the detectives came and knocked

103
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,159
Speaker 3: on my door, and yes, did I hear anything or

104
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,400
Speaker 3: did I see anything? I said, No, I was four

105
00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,279
Speaker 3: in the morning. No, I was in latter Land.

106
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,080
Speaker 4: I was sleeping. I did not hear anything.

107
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,280
Speaker 1: James had a thirteen month old son, so it's more

108
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,080
Speaker 1: likely that he'd be getting every minute of sleep that

109
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,760
Speaker 1: he could rather than staying out till four am and

110
00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,200
Speaker 1: committing a robbery and murder. With two other guys, one

111
00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,159
Speaker 1: of whom bred Clay. He only knew through his would

112
00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:55,040
Speaker 1: be mother in law.

113
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,560
Speaker 3: His mother used to hang out with Diane's mother, and

114
00:05:58,600 --> 00:05:59,839
Speaker 3: that's how I knew Freddy.

115
00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,680
Speaker 4: I never hung out with this kid. He wasn't even sixteen.

116
00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,000
Speaker 1: Plus Freddie lived at a foster home, not at the projects,

117
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 1: and perhaps both of their relationships with the system played

118
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,679
Speaker 1: into how they were singled out. When another cab driver

119
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 1: named Richard Dwyer came forward that Friday morning with a

120
00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,360
Speaker 1: story which started out with some naked racism.

121
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 2: Supposedly, this cab driver saw three black men in the

122
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,039
Speaker 2: red light district down on Washington Street. He put his

123
00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,520
Speaker 2: meter on to look that he was busy, So the

124
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,440
Speaker 2: three black men get into a cab. In the cab left,

125
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 2: and then the next day is when the cab driver

126
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,119
Speaker 2: allegedly sees a picture in the paper of the cab

127
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,200
Speaker 2: that Jeffrey had been driving, and he remembers the cab

128
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,159
Speaker 2: as the one he saw these three black men get into.

129
00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,120
Speaker 1: But this shooting happened around four a m. And that

130
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,560
Speaker 1: morning's newspaper had already been printed. So no, mister Dwyer,

131
00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,640
Speaker 1: you didn't recognize the licensed number of Jeffrey Boyagian's cab

132
00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,360
Speaker 1: in the newspaper. You couldn't have and it's possible that Dwyer, well,

133
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,960
Speaker 1: he could have been motivated by some understandable fear among

134
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,440
Speaker 1: cab drivers and their business interests.

135
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,480
Speaker 2: The day that James was arrested, there was an article

136
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,480
Speaker 2: in the paper as well about the cab drivers being

137
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,520
Speaker 2: upset that there was not enough done about the shooting

138
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,200
Speaker 2: and there's been a lot of shootings and they were

139
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,560
Speaker 2: saying if it was a police getting shot, they'd be

140
00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 2: doing something. So there was a lot of pressure on

141
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 2: the police to get this taken care of as well.

142
00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 1: So now, as an alleged eyewitness, Dwyer met with Boston

143
00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,720
Speaker 1: Police officer Patrick Brady, who had taken a number of

144
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,200
Speaker 1: hypnotism courses, and at some point Dwyer was also shown

145
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:35,240
Speaker 1: some photo arrays.

146
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 2: They hypnotize him and they tell him that it's like

147
00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,080
Speaker 2: a video recording, so he can stop the frame when

148
00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 2: he sees the men who were getting into the cab,

149
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,680
Speaker 2: and the particular man that he focused in on was

150
00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,680
Speaker 2: allegedly James, because he was the polite gentleman letting the

151
00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 2: other two in the cab at least he was polite

152
00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,440
Speaker 2: and he could describe him, and he described allegedly Fred

153
00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,000
Speaker 2: as well. Couldn't really describe the third person.

154
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,440
Speaker 1: And I think anyone with a human brain can recognize

155
00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,239
Speaker 1: that their memories do not work like an on demand

156
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 1: video streaming service with zoom capabilities. But there's even more.

157
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:15,240
Speaker 1: The order of photo viewing and hypnotism is also very important.

158
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,440
Speaker 2: This was going to be a case of first impression

159
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 2: whether hypnotic identifications would be admissible in Massachusetts. So they

160
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,760
Speaker 2: knew that if the testimony came out that he had

161
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 2: looked at the photographs after he was hypnotized, it would

162
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,440
Speaker 2: be an admissible What they said happened was that he

163
00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,560
Speaker 2: was shown photographs of I think it was sixteen random

164
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:42,320
Speaker 2: black men from the projects, and he chose James and Fred.

165
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,360
Speaker 2: Now allegedly they said this happened before he was hypnotized.

166
00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,559
Speaker 2: The reality that we find out when we did our

167
00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,640
Speaker 2: investigation was that did not happen that way. So they

168
00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,520
Speaker 2: had the change in narrative that he made the identification

169
00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,599
Speaker 2: untainted by any hypnosis. So the hypnotism in itself is

170
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,440
Speaker 2: junk science. But the fact that the prosecutor, we believe

171
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,160
Speaker 2: lied and we have found evidence in the DA files

172
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,520
Speaker 2: that showed that he did. It's pretty problematic.

173
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:15,080
Speaker 1: Perhaps the prospect of using hypnotic identifications going forward was

174
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,280
Speaker 1: just too alluring. Luckily for all of us, the president

175
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,560
Speaker 1: was not established. However, The doctor narrative was that Dwyer

176
00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,719
Speaker 1: made a tentative idea of James and Fred from sixteen

177
00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 1: photos of local black men before being hypnotized and then

178
00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,320
Speaker 1: making a confident identification of both, which also raises the

179
00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,559
Speaker 1: specter of solidifying a false memory. Either way, the police

180
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,520
Speaker 1: sought support for this dubious ID process.

181
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,920
Speaker 3: They have took Diane down to the police station that

182
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,640
Speaker 3: Friday of the crime. I didn't know that, and she

183
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:48,959
Speaker 3: never told me that. They pulled her over and took

184
00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,680
Speaker 3: it down to the station. I had to find out

185
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,640
Speaker 3: down the road. They threatened to give us seven years

186
00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,600
Speaker 3: and frame him, take her kids from him, and cut

187
00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 3: her off public aid. If you try to give your

188
00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,439
Speaker 3: boyfriend a fucking alibi, That's what he told me.

189
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,559
Speaker 1: Despite Diane naming alternate suspects who were known for similar

190
00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,000
Speaker 1: crimes and had been wearing leather jackets, she was being

191
00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:12,320
Speaker 1: coerced into implicating James. But at this time she hadn't

192
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,079
Speaker 1: yet committed to helping the police.

193
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,720
Speaker 3: So after that they had me down the station Saturday Sunday.

194
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,319
Speaker 3: You know, I'm telling them I wasn't there. I didn't

195
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,720
Speaker 3: do this. I got a kid man, I did not

196
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,920
Speaker 3: rob no cab driver. I was not downtown four o'clock

197
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,679
Speaker 3: in the morning to take a burlow. He said, are

198
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,080
Speaker 3: you willing to take a polygraph test? I said, listen, man,

199
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,800
Speaker 3: I'll take a polygraph test, drug syrup, whatever you want

200
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,360
Speaker 3: me to do that make you understand that I'm telling

201
00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 3: you the truth.

202
00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,960
Speaker 4: I didn't do this. I wouldn't do this.

203
00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,240
Speaker 3: And he said, okay, we'll do the polygraph one o'clock Monday,

204
00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:47,480
Speaker 3: so he let me leave.

205
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,000
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, they had been talking to philipp and Neil Sweat.

206
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,240
Speaker 2: They start interviewing the Sweats and showing them photographs and

207
00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 2: this went on over the course of the entire weekend.

208
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,640
Speaker 2: Well come to find out that the Sweats wanted to

209
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 2: move out of the projects for a long time because

210
00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,200
Speaker 2: they were one of the few white families living there

211
00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,720
Speaker 2: and they wanted to move to the white projects. So finally,

212
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:16,439
Speaker 2: by Monday, they convinced mister Sweat that he could identify

213
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 2: mister Watson and mister Clay and he did. Fred was

214
00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,880
Speaker 2: the gunman and James was just there to assist and

215
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,199
Speaker 2: the third person who knows, And they moved them.

216
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 1: And they tried to use hypnosis with Neil Sweat as well.

217
00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,439
Speaker 2: They did, but because of his intellectual disabilities his concentration,

218
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,040
Speaker 2: it didn't go so well.

219
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 1: At this time, Philippus Wett was not willing to join

220
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,080
Speaker 1: her son in making an ID. Meanwhile, James still thought

221
00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,320
Speaker 1: a polygraph would prove his innocence, but Detective Burlow didn't

222
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 1: come to get him until late Monday evening, without his partner,

223
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,400
Speaker 1: but rather some mystery man who left. When they arrived

224
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 1: at the precinct and James was brought inside.

225
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,360
Speaker 3: I'm sitting in the office and it's just me, Detective

226
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,440
Speaker 3: Burlow and Detective Paul Carroll.

227
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,679
Speaker 4: He said, what would wrong man? You know what I mean?

228
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 4: Why did you kill him? This is supposed to be for

229
00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,640
Speaker 4: a parograph. I didn't do this.

230
00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,440
Speaker 3: And then he said you've been identified. I said what

231
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,720
Speaker 3: he said, you've been identified.

232
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,120
Speaker 4: So get the fuck out of here. I said, who

233
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,120
Speaker 4: identified me? Who let me see him?

234
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:15,439
Speaker 3: Who?

235
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:16,360
Speaker 1: You know?

236
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:17,439
Speaker 4: You've been identified?

237
00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,200
Speaker 3: And you being book for murder booked me, fingerprint me,

238
00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:26,080
Speaker 3: took me to Child Street jail and that's where I

239
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,040
Speaker 3: remained for twenty three months.

240
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,840
Speaker 1: This episode of wrongful conviction is proudly sponsored by Erase

241
00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,760
Speaker 1: PTSD Now. Every day, countless individuals face the invisible wounds

242
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,440
Speaker 1: of trauma and PTSD. Your support empowers us to provide

243
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 1: life changing treatments like the Stella Ganglion Block SGB, which

244
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,480
Speaker 1: inhibits nerve impulses and helps to restore hope, reclaim lives,

245
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,960
Speaker 1: and save lives after incarceration. Together, we can ensure that

246
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,400
Speaker 1: those wrongfully convicted receive the care they need to heal

247
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,720
Speaker 1: and reintegrate into society. Join us in this mission to

248
00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,679
Speaker 1: erase PTSD and uplift our communities. Visit erase PTSD now

249
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,240
Speaker 1: dot org. That's erase PTSD now dot org for more

250
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,360
Speaker 1: information and ways to get involved.

251
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,559
Speaker 3: Freddie they made him my coat defended, which I didn't

252
00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,200
Speaker 3: know of. I happened to be in Childbree playing cards.

253
00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,880
Speaker 3: He came to hild freet and I said, damn, Freddie,

254
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:35,720
Speaker 3: what they get you for? Oh, I'm in here for

255
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 3: the same thing you are. I said what, Yeah, they said,

256
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:39,480
Speaker 3: I shot the gun.

257
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,400
Speaker 4: I said, oh shit. Later on they came and they

258
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:43,040
Speaker 4: pulled him out.

259
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:47,959
Speaker 3: Of child speat, and then the lawyer came up. He said, look,

260
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 3: they don't want you right, they want Freddy. You know me,

261
00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,800
Speaker 3: They want to shoot it if you testify against Freddie.

262
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,560
Speaker 3: The DA said he'd give you time serve and cut

263
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,640
Speaker 3: your loose. But all you have to do was testified

264
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,920
Speaker 3: against Frederick Clay.

265
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,720
Speaker 1: Who was a sixteen year old child at that time.

266
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, was a baby, he was a kid. He was

267
00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 3: locked up in a Foster home under lock and key.

268
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 3: The woman name was Missus Kings. He was living in

269
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,440
Speaker 3: the Foster home. Well, the only way you can get

270
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,720
Speaker 3: out the house is use a key to open the

271
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:17,640
Speaker 3: door from the inside.

272
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,840
Speaker 1: And if you'd like to hear Fred's side of this story,

273
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,440
Speaker 1: and I hope you will, we're gonna link his interview

274
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,320
Speaker 1: in the episode of description. So anyway, neither of them

275
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,160
Speaker 1: took a deal. Oddly, they didn't apply more pressure on James,

276
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,680
Speaker 1: considering the options time served or death.

277
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,680
Speaker 3: I didn't know about the death penalty stat too until

278
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,640
Speaker 3: I went for my arraignment and Timothy o'dneill, I'll never

279
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,160
Speaker 3: forget that, bastard. He asked, Judge Irwin, I can never

280
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 3: forget that as long as as I live. He said,

281
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 3: I like to indict mister Watson under the death penalty

282
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 3: status here on due to the nature of the crime

283
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,920
Speaker 3: and the underlining felony the robbery. And Judge Irwin put

284
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,600
Speaker 3: his glasses down over his big fucking nose and said, granted,

285
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,560
Speaker 3: I said death finality. What now, I'm scared. I'm sure

286
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,960
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, I'm growing gray heads at a

287
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 3: very early age.

288
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,880
Speaker 2: Ten months. Ten months he sat in jail knowing that

289
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 2: he was facing the death penalty until they took it

290
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,880
Speaker 2: to court, and then with a case that bears his

291
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,840
Speaker 2: name and three others, they found that the death penalty

292
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 2: is unconstitutional.

293
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one of those cases that abolished the

294
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:28,160
Speaker 1: death penalty in Massachusetts. But not knowing this outcome, James

295
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 1: still didn't waiver. It's amazing. Unfortunately, Diane Moses had her

296
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 1: children to think of, so she agreed to help the police.

297
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,160
Speaker 3: I found that out when I'm sitting in child Street.

298
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,520
Speaker 3: And then Frank Color, her trinity, came up, said Diane,

299
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 3: your girlfriend Moses is going to testify against you, saying

300
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,080
Speaker 3: that you told her you was there, but you didn't

301
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 3: do the shoot. I said, what, I never told her that.

302
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 4: Well, that's what she's going to testify to.

303
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 3: And if you want to mean change, I ain't changing shit.

304
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 3: I did not do this. I did not kill nobody.

305
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 3: I would never kill nobody or let nobody be killed.

306
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 3: But anyway I had to find out down the road

307
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 3: they threatened her. I'm saying, wow, they must already did

308
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 3: a job on her. So I'm missing my son, and

309
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 3: I told my sister. I said, joint, go down over there,

310
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 3: get my son and bring him up here to visit me.

311
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,600
Speaker 3: So she goes down to the apartment. The apartment is empty.

312
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,160
Speaker 3: They took her and moved the down south you mean

313
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,360
Speaker 3: like South Boston, Georgia, Georgia. And that's where she stayed

314
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 3: until trial. Now, even though Fred was the alleged shooter,

315
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 3: both Fred and James were charged with first degree murder,

316
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 3: which later became an issue that won James a new trial,

317
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,200
Speaker 3: but either way, the first trial proceeded in August of

318
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty one.

319
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,240
Speaker 2: Fred and James were tried together and there was no

320
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 2: physical evidence, and Nil Sweat identified them with his magical

321
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 2: powers of sight, and Richard Dwyer came in and identified

322
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,760
Speaker 2: both of them, and so he had everyone believing that

323
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,400
Speaker 2: they had made this initial identification free of hypnotism.

324
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,800
Speaker 1: And then he spoke about how his hypnotism session was

325
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 1: like watching a movie of the assailants getting into Jeffrey

326
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 1: Boyegian's cab.

327
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 3: Yes, he said, it was like being at the movie,

328
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,080
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, he can picture it clearly that Yes,

329
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 3: this is the guy saw he said. We walked there

330
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,400
Speaker 3: at New across the street. I opened the door, let

331
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 3: the other two get in, and then I walked around,

332
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 3: looked him in the face, and then got into the

333
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,600
Speaker 3: cop and the cab drove off.

334
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,800
Speaker 1: Then Boston Police Officer Patrick Brady was sworn in as

335
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:42,040
Speaker 1: an expert investigative hypnologist. Okay, and he testified that the

336
00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,920
Speaker 1: mind can take mental pictures that are encoded in the brain.

337
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm pausing here because I'm losing my shit, okay, deep breath.

338
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 1: Then the state also presented an LAPD psychologist, a guy

339
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,919
Speaker 1: named Martin Riser, who testified the the mind works like

340
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,159
Speaker 1: a giant computerized videotape recording. I mean, fuck off with

341
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,040
Speaker 1: this shit. And anyway, the defense presented their own expert,

342
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,920
Speaker 1: a doctor named Martin Orn who said that this tape

343
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,920
Speaker 1: recorder theory of human memory has no scientific support, because

344
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,879
Speaker 1: of course it doesn't. And then the state called Ben Brown.

345
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,080
Speaker 4: Ben Brown didn't testify against me.

346
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 2: He testified at the first trial, and he was technically

347
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 2: an adverse witness for the Commonwealth. He did say he

348
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,399
Speaker 2: saw two people pull the cab driver out, but he

349
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,480
Speaker 2: didn't recognize the shooter, and he testified that it was

350
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,359
Speaker 2: not James, that he didn't see him out there.

351
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 1: So Fred and James both testified in their own defense,

352
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 1: saying that they'd had nothing to do with this shooting.

353
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,399
Speaker 1: But then Diane Moses took the stand.

354
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,920
Speaker 3: She said, I told her that I was dead and

355
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 3: that he didn't do the shooting, and she said this,

356
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 3: He said, we are not going to tell the police

357
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,480
Speaker 3: anything else. I said, we, Who the hell are you

358
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:57,119
Speaker 3: talking about?

359
00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:57,280
Speaker 1: We?

360
00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 4: She was implicating herself.

361
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 3: That's how scared she was, you know, because to find out,

362
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,440
Speaker 3: they kept irrastioning every time they saw her.

363
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 1: So the trial wrapped up with two alleged eyewitness ideas

364
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 1: opposing expert testimonial hypnosis, followed by Diane Moses with this

365
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 1: alleged confession.

366
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 3: They came back with a question that Jermy said, Judge,

367
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 3: can you define first degree murder? Judge says, you read

368
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 3: the evidence, you got the record going back and into

369
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 3: the right with it, so he wouldn't answer their question.

370
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,439
Speaker 3: And they went back there and came back guilty, guilty

371
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,119
Speaker 3: of first green murder, and the judge sent you to

372
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,320
Speaker 3: your natural life and state better tentiaries.

373
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 4: That was it.

374
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,600
Speaker 3: That's like from the guilty they should be back to

375
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,040
Speaker 3: child Street because they didn't have the room in Wallpole.

376
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 3: The bids were full, so I stayed into child Street

377
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 3: and after the next night they shipped me off the

378
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 3: Wallpole about six thirty at night, and I ended up

379
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,080
Speaker 3: steeping in the dayroom on a cot. The cot had

380
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 3: to be about four feet five feet and I'm six six.

381
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,159
Speaker 3: And the next day you went out, got up, stand

382
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 3: up for count, and get up the win for breakfast.

383
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 3: And when I went to the child hall, a lot

384
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,080
Speaker 3: of people recognize me because some of the guys in

385
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 3: there were older guys, which you call o gez. You

386
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 3: know knew my dad, if someone knew my uncle. They

387
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,440
Speaker 3: schooled me on what was going down. You know, I mean,

388
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,120
Speaker 3: you have any problems, you let us know. Don't hang

389
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 3: with that group. Don't sit at that table. You know,

390
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 3: you get the don't cut sit you know, sit with us.

391
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 4: It was crazy. I was only weighing one hundred and

392
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 4: seventy pounds. I was scared to death. Ain't gonna bullshit you.

393
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

394
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 3: You know, because I heard all the rumors about Walpole,

395
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,159
Speaker 3: you know, finding bodies two days later and they was

396
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 3: raping guys, and you know what I mean, said, damn man,

397
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,199
Speaker 3: I got to get through this. I didn't know if

398
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,600
Speaker 3: I won't get through to that. I wasn't contemplating on

399
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,480
Speaker 3: killing myself, but I said, I'm gonna have to learn

400
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 3: how to be a fighting motherfucker and fight.

401
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,679
Speaker 1: He did, and we don't see this often, but he

402
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,359
Speaker 1: actually won on direct appeal way back in March nineteen

403
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,879
Speaker 1: eighty three. Now, the jury should have been instructed that

404
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 1: James could be found guilty of bellony murder based on

405
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 1: robbery only if there was proof that he knew Fred

406
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 1: had a gun, But obviously this is only a technical issue.

407
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,439
Speaker 1: Bred never had a gun and didn't commit this murder,

408
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,640
Speaker 1: which is where it all becomes like some weird Kafka nightmare.

409
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: But this is how they were able to Win James

410
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 1: in new trial, which began in January nineteen eighty four.

411
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 1: Now the hypnosis evidence was not included. It was excluded,

412
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: but the state added philipp A Sweat as a witness

413
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: who up until this point, well, she had never made

414
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:46,400
Speaker 1: an id.

415
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 3: When Philip pu Sweat got on a stand and it

416
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: was asked, do you see the defendant that you saw

417
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 3: on November sixteenth, nineteen seventy nine outside your window, Robin

418
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 3: his cab driver? And she said well, and the DA

419
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,640
Speaker 3: got so frustrated he said, I'm gonna ask you again,

420
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 3: missus Sweat, now remind you each time he said this

421
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:13,640
Speaker 3: To her right, he walked from the witness stand around

422
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 3: the table and went directly and stood behind my chair

423
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 3: and asked her the question again, do you see the

424
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 3: defendant in this courtroom that was participating in the murder

425
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 3: and Robbie? And she said well, and he didn't even

426
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 3: let her finish. Do you see the defendant that you

427
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 3: saw on the women the next sixteenth? Well, to say,

428
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 3: to tell you the truth, it was dark to say

429
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 3: that it was him. And then I said, damn, look

430
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 3: like I might be going home, you know what I mean.

431
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 3: But he stood behind my chair, and I looked at

432
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 3: my lawyer. I said, like, I'm saying to here, like, motherfucker,

433
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 3: you going to say something because he's directed this, it's

434
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 3: right to me.

435
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 4: And she said it was it was kind of dark.

436
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 3: I'm saying, yeah, okay, And then finally she says, I

437
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 3: think that's him right there.

438
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 4: I said, ain't this after all that? You know what

439
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 4: I mean? Come on and no, But he said nothing.

440
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 4: My lloyds say nothing.

441
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: Then he foind he's standing around and said, drawn, he's

442
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 3: directing the witness to the defendant.

443
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 4: You know, stop. I said, man, it's kind of late

444
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 4: for that.

445
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: Now.

446
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 2: James's attorney set up the jury thinking that Philippus Sweat

447
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: is going to get up on that stand and say

448
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: to you, she can't identify who if it was him.

449
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 2: And then she gets up on the stand and says, yeah,

450
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: that was him. So that kind of sealed the deal.

451
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 2: I mean, there was enough there already anyways, but that

452
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 2: sealed the deal.

453
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: It was too much fabricated evidence to a lank jeror

454
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 3: they know nothing of Mistaken identifications. Eyewitness identification is the

455
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 3: worst identification, especially a black man identifying a white person

456
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 3: or a white person dientif for the black person that

457
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 3: identifications could be totally whaite.

458
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, cross racial identification has been proven to be less

459
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: accurate than guessing, and not even to mention that they

460
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: were being incentivized eighteen ways till Sunday, which gave them

461
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: a lot of very good reasons to lie. Nevertheless, he

462
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: was convicted again and then denied a direct appeal, and

463
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: because they weren't aware of many of the issues that

464
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: we know about now, they had effectively just given up

465
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: and submitted to life without the possibility of parole.

466
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: I've never been in a situation like the Holocaust or

467
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 3: anything like that, but I mean, I'd just seen you know,

468
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 3: documentaries on that, and that's what it's felt like. You know,

469
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 3: you wait to die, stay here, getting that hole and

470
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 3: stayed it until.

471
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 4: You die, you know what I mean. Isn't humane, you

472
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 4: know what I mean?

473
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 1: And eventually a series of Supreme Court decisions began to

474
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: recognize that, at least for juveniles, first ruling in two

475
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: thousand and five that the death penalty was a violation

476
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: of the Eighth Amendments banned on cruel and unusual punishment

477
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: for juveniles, then the same for juvenile life without parole

478
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: for non homicide offenses in twenty ten, followed by an

479
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: extension to homicide cases in twenty twelve, and then those

480
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: decisions were ruled retroactive in twenty sixteen. So Fred, who

481
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: was only sixteen when this crime occurred, found support from

482
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: both Jeffrey Harris, who is private counsel, as well as

483
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: Lisa Kavanaugh, the director of the Committee for Public Services

484
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: Council Innocence Program, and they worked on his parole package

485
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: as well as a motion for a new trial based

486
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: on actual innocence.

487
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: Lisa Kavanaugh Jeff Harris took on Fred's case and there

488
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: was a different attorney appointed for James. They really dug

489
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: down deep into it and found all the stuff on

490
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 2: the third party culprits of who probably did do the

491
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,959
Speaker 2: shooting but has never been held accountable.

492
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: Now, there were police reports that implicated two young men

493
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: from the projects, Tyrone and Junior Cooper, who were known

494
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: to wear leather jackets, and Tyrone was short matching the description.

495
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: But more importantly, according to Diane Moses's initial interview, a

496
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: man named Jimmy Poole had implicated the Cooper brothers as well.

497
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: But it looks like since the police already had Dwyer

498
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: identifying Fred and James, they were not interested in the

499
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: Cooper's Nonetheless, trial council should have raised this material issue

500
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: and therefore they were ineffective.

501
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 2: They actually got Fred released in August of twenty seventeen.

502
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 2: His motion for new trial was allowed, I think a

503
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 2: week before they were going to release him on parole.

504
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 2: James did not get involved with that motion for new trial.

505
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 2: I was not involved yet, so he stayed behind in prison.

506
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: Then I took over his case in May of twenty eighteen.

507
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: Really credit to Lisa and Jeff because they did more

508
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 2: than half of the work for me because they had

509
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 2: already done Fred's case. And then we had the best

510
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: investigator in the world, John Nor Deez.

511
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: And the investigator was able to get confirmation about Diane

512
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: Moses and her motivation to bear false witness by speaking

513
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: with her daughter Charrell Moses.

514
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Sorelle. How it came to me, was her daughter

515
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 3: acid you know in mind? Did Jimmy do that? And

516
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 3: she said no, I told him that because they was

517
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 3: going to take you away from me, take my kids

518
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: from me. So she said it was either my kids

519
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: or him.

520
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 4: I gave them him.

521
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: And that's not all John NARDIZI uncovered.

522
00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 2: When we did our investigation, we found a letter that

523
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 2: the DA at the time, Tim O'Neil, had written to

524
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: a hypnosis expert because he wanted to hire him to

525
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: testify at the trial, and he laid out how it went,

526
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 2: and what he said in the letter was that he

527
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: was hypnotized and then he was shown photographs. But at

528
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 2: trial he kept presenting it as he made an identification,

529
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: but free of hypnotism. Then he was hypnotized, then he

530
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: made a second identification, which is why in the second

531
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 2: letter we found, the expert said, I can't really help

532
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 2: you because it's not going to be admissible because it's tainted.

533
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: So that was never turned over to the defense, even

534
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 2: though the defense knew. Both defense knew how the actual

535
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 2: identification process went down, but they could never prove it.

536
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 2: If they had this letter from the expert and the

537
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 2: letter he wrote to the expert, it would have been

538
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: very clear.

539
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,239
Speaker 1: So this is the proof of the false narrative, and

540
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: had they been able to prove it back at trial,

541
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: Richard Dwyer's ID would not have been admitted. But the

542
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: investigator uncovered still more even more about Dwyer.

543
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: The cab company that he worked for was owned by

544
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 3: an individual named James Quinn. He's a millionaire, and the

545
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: cab drivers that were working for James Quinn were afraid

546
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 3: that they wasn't getting protection from stuff like this, so

547
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 3: him and James Quinn got together and cocked up the story.

548
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 3: And I also forgot to tell you that when Burlo

549
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 3: took me down to the station right that Monday night,

550
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 3: the other guy that was with him, I found out

551
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 3: was the owner of the cab company, James Quinn. But

552
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 3: we went to trial, I seen him again. I said, damn,

553
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 3: this motherfucker was in the car with me when I

554
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: went down to the station.

555
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: So it appears that the police and Dwyer may have

556
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: been acting at the behest of this wealthy cab company

557
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: owner to close this case in order to reassure his

558
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: workers so he could keep the money rolling in. Meanwhile,

559
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: the Cooper brothers were free to commit similar crimes, including

560
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: one confirmed arm or so with the alternate suspect evidence

561
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: Charrell moses to hypnotism correspondence, they were able to file

562
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: a motion for new trial based on ineffective assistance of

563
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: counsel and prosecutorial misconduct.

564
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 2: We had the best co counsel in the world, Madeleine

565
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: Blanchet and Rada not A Rajan from the New England

566
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 2: Innocence Project helped us with the investigation, so we had

567
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: a great team. Without John and Maddie and Rada and

568
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 2: Lisa and Jeff, I don't know what would happen to James.

569
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: And the reality is that once we found that evidence,

570
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 2: COVID hit in March of twenty twenty. So now we

571
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: have worked on the motion from the trial. Maddie, my

572
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: co counsel, took over and did the motion to stay

573
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: and it was new territory to try to get somebody

574
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: out convicted a first degree murdered not once but twice.

575
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: But she wrote a brilliant motion to stay. And one

576
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: of the reasons we were granted the stay was because

577
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: the Commonwealth admitted that we had a colorable claim because

578
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: of the withheld evidence between the expert and the DA,

579
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: so they admitted there was a very real chance of

580
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: winning on that issue and the judge found it as well,

581
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: so that gave us a lot of hope that it

582
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: would have a good result in the end. And before

583
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: I even filed my full motion for a new trial.

584
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: We got him released in April April sixteenth, twenty twenty,

585
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: he walked out the door.

586
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: James was on supervised release while the state conducted their

587
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: own investigation, and finally, after more than forty one long years,

588
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: James was reunited with his son, Don Juan Moses, who

589
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: was just thirteen months old when James was arrested.

590
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 4: He lives at May, He does hospice. He loves Karen

591
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 4: for the elder. He's full of love, he's full of

592
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 4: the passion. So he's just like his dad. I know

593
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 4: he's mine. I know he's mine always.

594
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: Karen and I got two grandchildren, kim Monie Jerome Moses

595
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: and Olivia Olivia Rose Moses. It's amazing, you know me.

596
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 3: I'm just everytime ope my eyes. I think Barbara Eyti

597
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 3: ope my eyes because I can mys and actually look

598
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 3: at the sky and not a sell I can walk

599
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 3: where I want to walk, say what I want to say,

600
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 3: go where I want to go, no restraints. And I

601
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: really didn't really appreciate freedom until i'd actually lost it,

602
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: And now that I got it back, I appreciated more

603
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 3: than you can imagine.

604
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: And his release and Eventually, his claim of innocence got

605
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: support from an unexpected source.

606
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 2: One of the main reasons he got out on the

607
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: stay is because of the victim's family. The Boegians Jerry

608
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: and Katrina wrote a letter to the district attorney and

609
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: agreed that James should be released. And you don't see

610
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: that often. They are extraordinary people, Yes they are, but

611
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: that time they didn't really have the full information. So

612
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 2: I think it was probably in the back of their

613
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: mind that first of all, Fred was released, so they

614
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: knew that one man had been wrongfully convicted. Now here

615
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: comes the second man who was also wrongfully convicted. But

616
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: they said because of his health issues and until this

617
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: was decided, it was the humane thing to do, and

618
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: there's not a lot of people that would say that.

619
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: They to this day now do believe that he is innocent,

620
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: and they have become quite close with James and Linda.

621
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: Linda is James's fiance.

622
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: Matter of fact, I talked to Jerry and Katrina yesterday.

623
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 3: We want to drive out there and go out to dinner.

624
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 3: I didn't meet them until it was at an Innocent conference,

625
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: and that's the first time I actually seen him in

626
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: the flesh. It brew me away because they apologized to

627
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 3: me what happened to me. I was like, you don't

628
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 3: have to apologize to me. I'm so happy, it's so

629
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 3: glad to meet you, and I'm so sorry what happened

630
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 3: to your brother. And we gave each other a hug

631
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: and I told him that the government owes us an apology.

632
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 3: They victimized us, Me, Freddie, your family, and your brother,

633
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 3: they victimized us. They welcomed me into their home. And

634
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: it was strange because I'm saying here, I am sitting

635
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: in this man's home, the brother of the man that

636
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 3: was murdered, and telling me that I believe you are innocent.

637
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 3: I was speechless. Jerry and Katrina is part of my

638
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 3: family now, like Barbara Monroe, angel is what I call

639
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 3: it that. Yeah, we're family for life.

640
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: Well that's beautiful, and there's still more good news after that.

641
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 2: I finished filing up the actual motion for new trial

642
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: in June twenty twenty, and then it was up to

643
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: the Conviction Integrity Unit to do their investigation and whether

644
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: they would assent to the motion, which took until November tenth.

645
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: So now it was up to the judge to allow

646
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: the motion. So we had assumed that James would have

647
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: his day in court. We bought him a freedom suit.

648
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: Nice custom tailor made Freedom suit for him to wear

649
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: to court. And it was November tenth and I was

650
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: having my coffee and looking at the docket and I

651
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: see motion allowed. I was like, what nobody called us?

652
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 2: Nobody told us. I read it on the docket. I

653
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: was stunned. I mean I was ecstatic, but I was stunned.

654
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: So he never got to go to court. We didn't

655
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: tell him, and we arranged an impromptu celebration, and.

656
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: They created some reason for him to try on the suit,

657
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 1: that he needed to buy a new button down shirt

658
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 1: to go with the suit.

659
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 3: It was me and my son and John, my investigator,

660
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: and we was out looking for a shirt. We drove

661
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: back to the house and everybody was there. My family

662
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 3: was there, Barbara, my nieces and nephews that weren't born.

663
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: When I went in and handle nieces and nephews his night,

664
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: welcome home.

665
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 4: It was amazing.

666
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: And since he's been home, he's dedicated to time to

667
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 1: building a nonprofit called Confronting Injustice.

668
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 3: Yes, me and my fiancee, Linda Solomon formed this organization

669
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 3: called confronted injustice, supporting wrongfully convicted and others adversely impacted

670
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 3: by this judicial system. We have a YouTube channel and

671
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 3: we do a podcast Asking here at the House, and

672
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 3: we're into you guys, And what we deal with is

673
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 3: post incarceration syndrome. People who are locked up coming out

674
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 3: of prison. Their mind has been reprogrammed, so to speak.

675
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: You being in prison ten fifteen years, being told win,

676
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 3: eat shit and sleep for decades. That gets embedded in

677
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 3: your mind. And do you really stop believing you can't

678
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 3: do nothing else but what somebody else tells you to do.

679
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: People don't know how serious it is. It's really serious.

680
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 3: I mean then they come out here and try to function.

681
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: Like my buddy Freddie, he win it as a baby.

682
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 3: He was stopped at sixteen. So we work with guys

683
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 3: and women. We go to court, we go and support them.

684
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: We write letters to the parole board. And guys that

685
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 3: have come out, we come out. They don't have nothing,

686
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 3: no ID, and you need a mass ID when you

687
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,439
Speaker 3: get apartment or roof over your head and food to eat.

688
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 4: So we support them.

689
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: If you want to check out the YouTube channel, it's

690
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: hosted on YouTube for BCMTV, a nonprofit media company out

691
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: of Braintree, Massachusetts. We're going to have it linked in

692
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: the episode description along with the New England in It's

693
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: It's project a great organization and getting involved with organizations

694
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: like this one goes a long way to making sure

695
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 1: innocent men like James, as well as innocent women across

696
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: the country have their freedom restored. And with that, we're

697
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: going to go to closing arguments. This is where I

698
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: think you, Barb and of course James, from the bottom

699
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: of my heart, and I'm now going to turn off

700
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: my microphone, just close my eyes and listen to anything

701
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: else you have to share. Barb, you go first, and

702
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: then just hand the mic off to James and he'll

703
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 1: take us off into the sunset.

704
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 2: When these men, usually men, but women as well, come

705
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: out of prison, sometimes most of the time, they don't

706
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 2: even get an apology, which they should, but they certainly

707
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: don't get compensation they walk out that door. I don't

708
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 2: know what they get. What I think you got fifty dollars, James,

709
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 2: and then they took some money out because you owed

710
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: money on your canteen. And they're just left to their

711
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 2: own to figure it out. After they've been incarcerated. James

712
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: was in almost forty two years, and thankfully he had

713
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: family there to help him, and he had us as well,

714
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: but not everyone has that, and there's no compensation. They're

715
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 2: trying to get compensation for people immediately when they get out,

716
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: but even what they get now through this state, if

717
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 2: you are quote unquote actually innocent, which nobody ever is.

718
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 2: According to them, the most that somebody can get. The

719
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 2: most that James could have gotten was a million dollars

720
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 2: for forty two years in prison. Figure out the math.

721
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: That's abominable. And then if you decide to do a

722
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: claim against the city, there's prosecutorial immunity, so that's a

723
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: problem in itself. But then they're forced to go and

724
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: wait and wait to try to get compensation. The city

725
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: of Boston has deep pockets. They can outwait somebody. James

726
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: doesn't have time to wait for that money. So what

727
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: does he have to end up doing at some point

728
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: in time settle for less than he should be getting,

729
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: and there's no amount of money that can compensate for

730
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: what he's lost. But there should be a much higher

731
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: amount of time money that they should get because society

732
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: needs to correct this and these are not disposable people.

733
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 3: I've got tremendous support that we got the fronting the jete.

734
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 3: We talk to the men on the telephone. Sometime we

735
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 3: write them to the house. We sit down, but eat

736
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 3: and help me get through whatever that's bothering them at

737
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 3: this particular time. You know what I mean, because there's

738
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 3: so much you can do at the immediate because I

739
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 3: don't want to see nobody go through what I went through.

740
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 3: And I know when I lay my head down tonight,

741
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 3: somebody's being wrongfully convicted or even murdered, I mean by

742
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: our loved government. Man, don't be afraid to speak up.

743
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,479
Speaker 3: Somebody will believe you. Thanks to Barbara Maddie, I'm living

744
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 3: proof somebody will listen to you. You can write me.

745
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 3: They got in the dress. They can write and I

746
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 3: definitely will return your letter. I'm gonna do everything in

747
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 3: my power before i leave this planet. Hopefully something changes,

748
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 3: the law changes, something changes, because you know, if they

749
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,959
Speaker 3: did it to one of my family members, I would

750
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 3: lose my shit.

751
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

752
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

753
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

754
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: Good plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

755
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

756
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber.

757
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time

758
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

759
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

760
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

761
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

762
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.

763
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 4: We've worked hard to ensure that all facts reported in

764
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 4: this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed by

765
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 4: the individuals featured in this show are their own and

766
00:39:52,440 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 4: do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.