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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: stuff I never told your production of iHeart Radio. Today,

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Speaker 1: we are once again joined by our good friend and

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Speaker 1: the amazing, wonderful Bridget Todd. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining us, Bridget, Oh, thanks for having me. Y'all always

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Speaker 1: give me the most warm welcomes. I love the intros

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Speaker 1: because they're so happy to love you. We are so

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Speaker 1: excited to have you. Yes, So, Bridget, do you have

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Speaker 1: any fun things on the horizon, any plans coming up? Yes? Well,

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Speaker 1: the most fun things I have on the horizon is

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Speaker 1: that my partner and I do this thing every holiday

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Speaker 1: season that we call weirdo Christmas, and we actually, hope

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Speaker 1: I think that everybody should should try it out. Weird

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Speaker 1: No Christmas is an activity that we do where after Thanksgiving,

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Speaker 1: but before Christmas, we go on our own little solo

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Speaker 1: trip just sort of, you know, have fun before the

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Speaker 1: official holiday season, and we bring costumes and lights and

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Speaker 1: just have a weird time. And it's just a fun

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Speaker 1: way to sort of if you're if you're from a

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Speaker 1: traditional family that does Christmas in a very traditional way,

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Speaker 1: can this be a fun way to counterbalance that? So

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Speaker 1: weirdo Christmas coming up, very excited. Oh, I love it.

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Speaker 1: What kind of costumes you got? Planned? My? The last

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Speaker 1: time I but we did this, I wore a fur

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Speaker 1: hat and a fur vest and fur boots. It was

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Speaker 1: like a fur theme. Double down on the fur again. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I encourage people to like whatever you know, your weirdness

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Speaker 1: looks like. Just because people are like weirdos or non

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Speaker 1: traditionalist doesn't mean that we can't also enjoy like holiday

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Speaker 1: cheer and festivity and so um. I used to always

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Speaker 1: feel a little alienated around Christmas time, you know. I

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Speaker 1: felt like if I wasn't doing something super traditional around

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Speaker 1: the holidays, like you basically didn't have any way to celebrate.

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Speaker 1: And that's not true because you can always celebrate your Christmas.

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Speaker 1: I love this. Yeah. I will say like, as a

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Speaker 1: person who does not love the holidays in general, doing

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Speaker 1: something completely off the cuff, it sounds better, especially if

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Speaker 1: you can establish it yourself, I will say, ay. And

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Speaker 1: I seem to do kind of that for New Year's

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Speaker 1: where we dress up as something random, like I have

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Speaker 1: a couple of onesies that I like to put on,

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Speaker 1: and we will cheers each other through. Whether it's like

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Speaker 1: us pictures or text, but we're wearing costumes usually. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why, we just kind of like we give

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Speaker 1: upon going out, let's do this instead. I think it's

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Speaker 1: because New Year's is such a I've had great New

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Speaker 1: Year's but generally I feel like the pressure is very

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Speaker 1: intense and it's always a mess. And so I was

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Speaker 1: kind of like, I want to stay in. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to read my fan fiction. And then and it became

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Speaker 1: we'll wear onesies and drink champagne at midnight and cheer

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Speaker 1: it's each other. See. I love that because just because

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Speaker 1: you're not somebody who is interested in spending hundreds of

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Speaker 1: dollars to have a you know, less than stellar night

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Speaker 1: on New Year's Eve doesn't mean that you should get

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Speaker 1: to miss out on like New Year's Eve holiday merriment.

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Speaker 1: Like that's exactly this in the spirit of a weirdo Christmas.

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Speaker 1: That you should, like not wanting to do the traditional

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Speaker 1: thing that everybody does doesn't mean that you should just

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Speaker 1: be boxed out of getting to, you know, have festivity

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Speaker 1: in merriment. So I like this, we need to we

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Speaker 1: need to roll in. We'll do weird no Christmas, We're

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Speaker 1: no New Year's hopefully a calendar going. Yes, there, we

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Speaker 1: want to be a Google calendar. Let's go. I love it.

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Speaker 1: I think we should sell one. Let's make money off.

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Speaker 1: So I also wanted to before we dive into this topic,

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Speaker 1: which I'm both very excited and very like anxious slash

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Speaker 1: nervous slash angry to talk about. I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: about I'm I'm a very big gamer. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of the listeners know that I've always played video games,

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Speaker 1: and I've always played in quote traditional video games, being

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Speaker 1: like Nintendo Supernintendo PlayStation, like those kind of console video games,

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Speaker 1: and I have a lot of history and experience with that.

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Speaker 1: But I wanted to ask the both of you what

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Speaker 1: your experience with gaming at large, not just console gaming is.

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Speaker 1: I've always thought that was the one of the coolest

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Speaker 1: things about you, Annie, is how into console game and

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Speaker 1: you are. I wish that I was. I aspired to be.

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Speaker 1: I don't really play much these days. When I was younger,

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Speaker 1: I really liked the world of Warcraft. Going back even further,

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Speaker 1: I was very much into like Super Nintendo when the

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Speaker 1: when the pandemic first started, we got one of those

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Speaker 1: I guess what you an emulator? I don't know what

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Speaker 1: you call it, but like to be able to play

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Speaker 1: old Sega games and old Supernintendo games on our TV.

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Speaker 1: And I remember and I was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: how much I loved, how much I loved and was

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Speaker 1: obsessed with that was growing up, but these days not

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Speaker 1: not so much. I'm so curious, say on what your

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Speaker 1: relationship to TED gaming has looked like. Um, I would

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Speaker 1: be the boomer who did not understand and does not

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Speaker 1: understand these games to the point that I still ask

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Speaker 1: both Annie and my partner like, okay, so the point

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Speaker 1: of this game is a B C D and then

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Speaker 1: just sit there and look at them puzzled. I do.

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Speaker 1: That's a lot because I still have to ask, especially

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Speaker 1: when it comes to console games, a lot of questions.

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Speaker 1: I never really grew into that really cared about it

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Speaker 1: much growing up. I did buy a switch during the

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Speaker 1: pandemic because I was like, oh, well, I can play

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Speaker 1: these games. So these games being Mario Party, where essentially

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Speaker 1: it's just kind of a chance, and I get very

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Speaker 1: mad at everyone about it because they all cheat. I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure Mario Kart same thing. I do like to

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Speaker 1: announce how many times I fall off because again, I

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Speaker 1: don't quite understand the buttons. Uh, same thing with any

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Speaker 1: of those kinds of things, but I do enjoy to

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Speaker 1: an extent until I frustrated that I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what y'all are doing. You keep telling me to push,

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Speaker 1: but this, this and this that doesn't make sense. My

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Speaker 1: fingers don't do this. So that's how I feel about

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Speaker 1: those games. But I've tried, I've got I've grown to

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Speaker 1: like them more and more. But I am more of

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Speaker 1: a phone game person and I always have. I did

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Speaker 1: really enjoy I guess the really first big game that

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Speaker 1: I played and I never we're gonna talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about them was Candy Crush that has since been

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Speaker 1: taken off to make room for games that are the

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Speaker 1: puzzle games that have narrative in it, and and we've

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Speaker 1: talked about it previously on a Monday Mittie because those

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Speaker 1: damn ads that we talked about that has those dramatic

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Speaker 1: leaving somebody cheating on, somebody murdering somebody apparently um had

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Speaker 1: really reeled me into being like, what is this game?

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Speaker 1: I need to know? And to the point that I've

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Speaker 1: tried to reel Annie in on at least one we

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Speaker 1: talked about Lily's Garden and Bridget If you have a chance,

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Speaker 1: I need you to play this game as well. Not

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Speaker 1: a sponsor, and it was created by a woman. So

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Speaker 1: the woman did this whole game, and she did all

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Speaker 1: of the programming behind it, and you can kind of

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Speaker 1: tell by the relationships in it. So I'm like, huh,

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Speaker 1: it is definitely different than the other games where it's

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Speaker 1: just like, oh, this girl looks like your typical white

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Speaker 1: sorority girl who has all these stereotypes attached to her

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Speaker 1: talking to a cute white boy. I think that's this

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Speaker 1: This one is a little different. And I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: and now I'm really caught up in it. So that

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Speaker 1: is my gaming expertise. And Annie had to tell me

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Speaker 1: that this was gaming because I was like, no, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't what. I don't know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: I just play on my phone. Yes, I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: so funny. Where do you think this idea that playing

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Speaker 1: of if you like quote, just play on your phone,

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Speaker 1: that you're not actually gaming? Like, where did that attitude

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Speaker 1: come from? I think it came from Let's see if

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Speaker 1: I can condense this. So in the eighties, toys were gendered,

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Speaker 1: and video games were coming out at that time, and

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Speaker 1: they got put into boys toys because the marketers at

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Speaker 1: the time thought um that they would have more success

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Speaker 1: in that category. It fit more into that category, and

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Speaker 1: so it became a like boys arena. And therefore, like

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Speaker 1: any girl entering into that space, and I speak from experience,

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Speaker 1: was seen as sort of like an anomaly and like,

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Speaker 1: why are you coming in here? This is like are

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Speaker 1: you trying to trick us into thinking that you're good?

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Speaker 1: Or look how cute she thinks she can do this?

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Speaker 1: Or like once you get older, are you trying to

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Speaker 1: get a date? And so I think it became a

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Speaker 1: very like boys space, and so that became serious gaming.

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Speaker 1: And so when phone games came out and everybody who

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Speaker 1: had a phone had more access to it, and especially

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Speaker 1: women were coming in and playing, that became like, that's

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Speaker 1: frivolous gaming. That is not gaming. I I being the

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Speaker 1: boy who was growing up with this, Um, I am

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Speaker 1: the serious gamer, and this is what gaming is. I

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Speaker 1: think it's another example of gate keeping around that that

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Speaker 1: makes me so sad. It is very tragical. I will say,

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Speaker 1: I am in level three thousand something. Look at this,

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Speaker 1: This is a pro We got a pro on here,

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Speaker 1: you should demand respect so that this is what I

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Speaker 1: do rather than spending time with people. Well, and just

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Speaker 1: to add to that before we get into this, for

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Speaker 1: a long time, the kind of running commentary around this

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Speaker 1: has been most gamers are men. But when you add

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Speaker 1: in phone games like games in my opinion, but yes,

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Speaker 1: phone games, then it does you towards women. But as

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Speaker 1: in the last two years, I believe even quote serious

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Speaker 1: gaming or console gaming, more women play than men. So

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Speaker 1: I think we really got to reframe our thoughts around

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Speaker 1: what a gamer looks like. Definitely, And I think it

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Speaker 1: really speaks to sort of the dark arts of marketing.

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Speaker 1: You see this all over tech, where the demographic that

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Speaker 1: is being marketed to and thus sort of creating this

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Speaker 1: perception of they're the main the biggest demographic like that

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Speaker 1: that has done so much bad stuff in terms of

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Speaker 1: making these different industries and across technology look like who

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Speaker 1: who is who actually makes them up? Like who is

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Speaker 1: actually in them? And so even while women are are

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Speaker 1: making up this lie and share, people who are gaming

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Speaker 1: marketing still would have you believe that that's not true. Right,

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Speaker 1: whether we the way that we are, perceptions of it

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Speaker 1: is still so warped and it doesn't actually you know,

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Speaker 1: align with the reality of who is actually in this

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Speaker 1: demographic right, and I think even in the games that

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Speaker 1: are getting made and how women are portrayed in a

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Speaker 1: lot of those games, it would very much lead you

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Speaker 1: to believe that men are the intended audience and the

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Speaker 1: preferred audience. Let's talk about what you brought today, bridget

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Speaker 1: as infuriating as it is very important to talk about

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Speaker 1: and really ongoing situation, which is what is going on

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Speaker 1: with Activision Blizzard. Yeah. So I'm so glad that you

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Speaker 1: grounded this in the idea that it is ongoing. This

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Speaker 1: is a current conversation. Uh the I first came on

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Speaker 1: my radar over the summer, but it is completely ongoing,

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Speaker 1: and just last week, you know, new updates in it.

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Speaker 1: So essentially the gaming company, Activision Blizzard, they're under fire

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Speaker 1: for allegations the company has fostered a really toxic workplace

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Speaker 1: where their women's staffers are mistreated and harassed and I'm

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Speaker 1: just not treated equally. And last week new reporting from

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Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal has really shed new light on

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Speaker 1: these allegations. And you know, last week the staff has

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Speaker 1: been mobilizing, they had to walk out. And so I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, when we think about different arenas and technology,

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Speaker 1: some some people who don't game might be listening to

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Speaker 1: this and think like, oh, well, big deal, who cares.

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Speaker 1: But particularly as more and more young people are finding

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Speaker 1: themselves on online worlds and online platforms built by by

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Speaker 1: you know, gaming companies, it is really important to think

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Speaker 1: through like how are these how are these games where

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Speaker 1: so many young people are spending their time, how do

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Speaker 1: they come to be? What kind of cultures are they

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Speaker 1: coming up in? Um? And so that's one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why I think this this story is such a

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Speaker 1: big deal. Activision Blizzard is also just a big deal

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Speaker 1: as a company. They are a major gaming company. They

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Speaker 1: produce Candy Crush, Call of Duty, Overwatch, in the world

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Speaker 1: of Warcraft, so major games, and uh, it's probably I

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Speaker 1: think it's I think it in at least it was

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Speaker 1: the biggest gaming company in both the United States and Europe.

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Speaker 1: So like, not only is it an important story in

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Speaker 1: terms of the culture these games are being produced in,

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Speaker 1: it's also a major business story because we're talking huge

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Speaker 1: global companies and the climates that these big companies foster

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Speaker 1: can really make a difference in the industry and like

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Speaker 1: what the industry is Like, Yeah, they're they're hugely influential.

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Speaker 1: They make like billions and billions of dollars, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: having such a big player in that space does ripple

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Speaker 1: out and impact all these other UM players in that space.

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Speaker 1: And I know, like I've read some of the stories

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Speaker 1: of people women who have worked at these companies and

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Speaker 1: it's just terrific and to like have them be so

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Speaker 1: excited because they grew up playing games or they it

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Speaker 1: was really important to them and to be so excited

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Speaker 1: to get this opportunity, and then it's just awful the

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Speaker 1: amount of harassment, uh they faced, which have started coming

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Speaker 1: out over the past few years. Right, Yeah, so um

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Speaker 1: there was a two year investigation but concluded in July.

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Speaker 1: The California Department of Fair Imployment and Housing felt a

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Speaker 1: lawsuit over the summer alleging sexual discrimination, harassment, and like

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Speaker 1: a general kind of frat boy culture at Activision List,

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Speaker 1: and the investigation down that the company discriminated against female

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Speaker 1: employees in both terms and conditions of employment UM including compensation, assignment, promotion,

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Speaker 1: and termination, and that company leadership consistently failed to take

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Speaker 1: steps to prevent discrimination, harassment, and retaliation, and like you

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Speaker 1: were saying, when you get into some of the specific

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Speaker 1: stories of the kinds of things that went on here,

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Speaker 1: Like one of the allegations that was made was that

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Speaker 1: the men at the company would often do these things

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Speaker 1: called cube crawls, in which male employees would drink copious

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Speaker 1: amounts of alcohol as they crawl their way through various

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Speaker 1: cubicles in the office and engage in inappropriate behavior towards

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Speaker 1: female employees. Like, imagine if that was just the thing

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Speaker 1: that happened in your workplace, right that, Oh, just it's Thursday. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: the male staffers are all gonna get really drunk and

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Speaker 1: crawl on their hands and knees into my office and

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Speaker 1: harass me while I'm trying to work. Like some of

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Speaker 1: the allegations are that have come out are just so horrifying,

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Speaker 1: And it's like I can just just like what you

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Speaker 1: were saying, I can imagine being so excited to work

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Speaker 1: at a company that is so influential in the gaming

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Speaker 1: space and then get there and be like, oh, actually

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Speaker 1: I have to put up with the most degrading behavior

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Speaker 1: just to do my job here. Right, It sends a

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Speaker 1: really clear message of whether like the company culture and

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Speaker 1: who belongs and who doesn't, and like what the kind

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Speaker 1: of status quo how they view you is someone who

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Speaker 1: it's okay to her ask like your job is not

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Speaker 1: important um or that you are kind of that outlier

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Speaker 1: that you know, why are you here? Is it to

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Speaker 1: get a man or just for us to to kind

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Speaker 1: of all go and harass at your job? Okay, I'm thinking, like,

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Speaker 1: I wonder how much it took for them to even

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Speaker 1: get an interview to go through how and we've talked

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Speaker 1: about how in general, women when they apply for anything,

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Speaker 1: they have to be sure like they are qualify before

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Speaker 1: they even attempted, so making sure that they are able

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Speaker 1: to prove that they can work there, and then going

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Speaker 1: through all of the hoops because they have to do

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Speaker 1: so much more than men typically, and within a business

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Speaker 1: like this, you have to do even more to prove

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Speaker 1: that you are worthy and knowledgeable of these things, and

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Speaker 1: then coming into their and being dismissed as if you

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Speaker 1: were an intern. Not the intern should be treated this

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Speaker 1: way either, but essentially as if you're coming to learn

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Speaker 1: instead of being a professional and be like, hey, I'm here,

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Speaker 1: and then watching this nonsense, like I would that makes

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Speaker 1: me want to throw things for sure. Yes, it's curiating,

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Speaker 1: and there are some of the details coming out. I'm

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Speaker 1: just like, wow, somebody somewhere thought this is acceptable. Like, um,

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Speaker 1: In one example, an activision employee had for years just

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Speaker 1: signed his email signature on all and you know in

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Speaker 1: this in this Wall Street Journal podcast that broke these

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Speaker 1: broke these new allegations, she makes this good point. You know,

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Speaker 1: so if you're a woman, you would get an email

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Speaker 1: and just be like, this is normal. It is normal

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Speaker 1: to get an email that has this sign off. And

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Speaker 1: then to make things worse, this employee worked there for

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Speaker 1: a month, right, Like, they took a month for them

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Speaker 1: to fire this employee, and they had an investigation, and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be like, what was her even to investigate?

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Speaker 1: Like investigation even look like you're like, it's right there,

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Speaker 1: here's the email. Either go ahead and discipline them or

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Speaker 1: why are we waiting a month? Right? Um? And then

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Speaker 1: like the saddest thing is this is pretty sad. So like,

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Speaker 1: if you're someone who you know it has has a

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Speaker 1: difficult time talking about suicide, I'm sorry to proport that

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Speaker 1: this is something that happened um. The suit also points

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Speaker 1: that a female Activision employee died by suicide while on

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Speaker 1: a company trip with her male supervisor. The employee had

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Speaker 1: been subjected to intense sexual harassment prior to her death,

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Speaker 1: including having nude photos of her passed around at a

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Speaker 1: company holiday party. And you know, I think that just

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Speaker 1: really underscores the seriousness of what was going on and

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Speaker 1: the seriousness of the of the toxic culture that was

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Speaker 1: happening at Activision that somebody died by suicide with in

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Speaker 1: regards to it, Yeah, yeah, and and because as we said,

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Speaker 1: this is ongoing, like it's not like something happened something

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Speaker 1: tragic like this happened and then they fixed it. It

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Speaker 1: was oh, you know, we've known this has been going on.

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Speaker 1: This is sort of the accepted culture. Let's move on

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Speaker 1: from this. And that's been one of the most frustrating,

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Speaker 1: Like all of it's really upsetting, but that's been one

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Speaker 1: of the most frustrating things is it's like all of

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Speaker 1: these instances over and over and over, and it seems

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Speaker 1: that they just really could care less. They're like, all right,

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Speaker 1: let's just wait for this publicity to blow over. They'll

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Speaker 1: be fine, and We'll continue as as we've done and

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Speaker 1: that's acceptable to them. Yeah, that is the message that

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Speaker 1: I think they're putting out. I think, just just like you,

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Speaker 1: when I heard about this employee who died by suicide,

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Speaker 1: I thought, certainly will be this, Like it's obvious to

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Speaker 1: anyone that big changes are necessary, a change in leadership,

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Speaker 1: a change in culture. This is not the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that I think training or you know, bringing in

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Speaker 1: a counselor is going to help. And then I was

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Speaker 1: really surprised to see that, you know, initially the company

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Speaker 1: was saying, like these reports aren't true. It just showed

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Speaker 1: it just showed me that they weren't taking it very seriously.

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Speaker 1: So when these allegations first surfaced in the Summer activision,

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Speaker 1: CEO Bobby Cootick he denied the allegations, saying that the

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Speaker 1: lawsuit allegations were inaccurate, adding that the picture that the

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Speaker 1: lawsuit paints is not the Blizzard workplace of today. But

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Speaker 1: the staff really say otherwise, and so a lot of

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Speaker 1: them put the blame squarely on his shoulders, as like

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Speaker 1: the CEO of this company, the seat, the person who

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Speaker 1: is overseeing all of this like really toxic stuff and

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Speaker 1: what's really upsetting to me is that initially Bobby Cootick

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Speaker 1: was denying that he had any knowledge of this kind

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Speaker 1: of conduct. Have right, Uh, He was like, I have

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Speaker 1: no awareness of this. I didn't know this was happening.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until after this lawsuit came out that

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Speaker 1: in October he eventually apologized to the staff and agreed

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Speaker 1: to pay eighteen million dollars in settlement with federal regulators

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Speaker 1: and pledged to take steps to improve have a company

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Speaker 1: treats employees. And so you might think, you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: like that's the end of the story, Like they paid

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Speaker 1: the money, they apologized, they pledged to do better. But

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Speaker 1: this is where the story is continuing, because the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal reported that not only did he know about

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Speaker 1: this behavior, he was an active participant himself in this behavior. Um.

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Speaker 1: And so what's really funny is that in his kind

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Speaker 1: of apology tour, he was like, now, Blizzard is going

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Speaker 1: to have a zero tolerance policy against this kind of behavior,

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Speaker 1: but that he had to specifically note that that policy

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Speaker 1: was not inclusive of his own behavior. And he was like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: it's zero tolerance, but like not for me cels In.

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Speaker 1: It's all good. Yeah, And I mean I know, like

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Speaker 1: um players have have kind of spoken out and you know,

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Speaker 1: said done like strikes where they won't play and the

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Speaker 1: workers have spoken out. But still still, uh, this guy

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Speaker 1: is still around despite like a lot of allegations coming

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Speaker 1: out against him. Oh yes, so some of the allegations

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Speaker 1: against him, specifically, according to The Wall Street Journal, over

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Speaker 1: the years, Mr Kotick himself has been accused by several

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Speaker 1: women of mistreatment, both inside and outside of the workplace.

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Speaker 1: In some instances, he has worked to settle those complaints

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Speaker 1: quickly and quietly, so a couple of the specific allegations.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, he reportedly harassed one of

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Speaker 1: his assistants, including threatening and a voicemail to have her killed.

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Speaker 1: Imagine if your boss was like, I'll have you killed.

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Speaker 1: I know it's shocking. Yes, yes, I mean a lot

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Speaker 1: of It's one of those things that do you read

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Speaker 1: about this that there's almost a part of you that's

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Speaker 1: like this can't be real, But in the back of

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Speaker 1: your head you're like, no, unfortunately, I think it is.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is kind of like a big part

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Speaker 1: of narcissists and that could power you see these levels

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Speaker 1: like that they they they're untouchable, as well as the

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Speaker 1: fact that no, just saying that it's actually a felony.

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Speaker 1: That is a felony. But congratulations, you have money and

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming he's white, you can move, Oh he is.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because he's almost like in some of these reports,

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Speaker 1: he kind of comes off as like a mega wealthy,

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Speaker 1: like mega powerful super villain. Uh. You know. In two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven, he allegedly told a private jet flight

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Speaker 1: attendant who was suing him for sexual harassment committed by

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Speaker 1: the pilot of his private jet, I'm going to destroy you.

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Speaker 1: I feel like telling a flight attendant on your private jet,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to destroy you. Is some like Mr Burns

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Speaker 1: level powerful narcissist run a month with power and money stuff.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And I mean I can just imagine like

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Speaker 1: if he you know, has played video games that he

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Speaker 1: sees himself as like the hero of this story or

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Speaker 1: like the powerful I can do anything because I have

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Speaker 1: like ascended every level in this video game that is

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Speaker 1: this company that I run, and I can treat people

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Speaker 1: however I want. Yeah, in my mind, I'm seeing like

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Speaker 1: a Harvey Weinstein of this industry, because that's exactly what

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Speaker 1: he would do with women that would just say no

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Speaker 1: to him. And in my mind, this seems to be

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Speaker 1: what he is doing with women. If he's threatening them

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Speaker 1: and willing to go to harm them whatever they there's

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Speaker 1: no telling what he has actually done that people are

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Speaker 1: not speaking out about yet. That's such a good point,

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Speaker 1: and I think that Harvey Weinstein comparison is apt. And

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Speaker 1: I do think that the kind of things that he's

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Speaker 1: being accused of, I think really illustrate a just a

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Speaker 1: particular kind of view of women. That women are around

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Speaker 1: to serve you and to do whatever you want them

430
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: to do, and that the idea that like a woman

431
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: would say no to you, the idea that a woman

432
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: who works on your private jet would sue you for

433
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: the behavior of your of your pilot. You know. I

434
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: think that the way that he responds to these women,

435
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: it just really illustrates a very particular kind of view

436
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: of women, just as they there to be in service

437
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: of powerful men, regardless of what their actual role is

438
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: um in the organization. And so another thing to point

439
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: out is that I believe the only so like in

440
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: terms of that voicemail where he told his assistant that

441
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: he would have her killed. He's through a spokesperson, he

442
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: said that he immediately apologized for that incident and that

443
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: that he regretted it. I think the only reason that

444
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 1: he said that is because it's on a voicemail. I

445
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 1: think that if there was not, you know, the audio

446
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 1: of him saying it, so you can't deny it. I

447
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: don't think you ever would be like, oh yeah, I

448
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: definitely said that I regretted it. I apologized. You know

449
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: this that in the third I think the only reason

450
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: you did that is because she You know, if it's

451
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 1: a voicemail, you have proof, right right? Yeah, I think

452
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: so too. And I think, again, this is like my

453
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: very personal experience, but I have had a lot of

454
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 1: run ins with some real nasty gamer bros. And I

455
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of like what you were saying,

456
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: bridget of like seeing women in a certain way. I

457
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of like really um condescending, like

458
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: oh she's so cute, Oh she's so cute. She thinks

459
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: she can like threaten me, or she thinks she can

460
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: come into this world like I'm only she's only here

461
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: because I'm letting her be here. She ignored, if she

462
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: annoys me, if she does something I don't like, then

463
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: like I will threaten her with violence, like immediately get

464
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 1: her out or find a way to silence her. Um.

465
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:50,880
Speaker 1: Because yeah, I do think a lot of it is

466
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: like she only exists here because I allow her to

467
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: exist here, which is very, very toxic and gross. I mean,

468
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: how do you, even as I gamer yourself, how do

469
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: you continue to show up and put yourself out there

470
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: even if you're playing with someone who seems accommodating and

471
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: nice and like maybe they're like, you know, a feminist,

472
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: but to know in the back of your head if

473
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: I do something that he doesn't like, he could flip

474
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: on me and turn on me, and I would I

475
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: would see this other side. How do you continue to

476
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: show up and put yourself out there knowing this? Um? Yeah,

477
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the what really breaks my heart

478
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: about a lot of this because I stopped online gaming

479
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: when I was twelve because I had already at that

480
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: point received enough threats in harassment that it was not

481
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: worth it for me, and it became such a scary experience.

482
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: And I know that this has changed, but for a while,

483
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: like the Xbox Live guidelines had a bullet point in

484
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: there that was like, if you're being her ass, you

485
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: can leave, essentially like not addressing the problem, but like, uh,

486
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: you know it's gonna happen, so too bad. I do still.

487
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: I do still play, but it's much more like I

488
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: played by myself or as friends that I know I

489
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: do have. When I was in college, I went to

490
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: a technical college, and um I entered a super Smash

491
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: Brothers tournament and I won five hundred dollars. But every

492
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: other competitor, which you can all bet, they were all men,

493
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: and some of them were my friends, did flip out

494
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: on me and they were like, you cheated. There's no

495
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: way she could not have one. That is impossible. And

496
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: I was like, I mean people were watching mad she

497
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: you just didn't think I was a threat, so you

498
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: didn't come at me, and you all die, right, they

499
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: all killed each other, which was my tactic, but it

500
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: doesn't work because anyway, But you know, we talked about

501
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: the story actually just this weekend, Annie and I and

502
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 1: just talking about how men in general in these gaming

503
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 1: worlds really don't see women as threats, or if they

504
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: are threats, it's because they are too sexual and or

505
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 1: something or for their gay So for the mail gays

506
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: in general. Uh, And I was thinking about that with

507
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: like feminist frequency. They were established because they're trying to

508
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: protect the women in this industry and those who are

509
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: non binary or those who identifies women like they are

510
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: really trying. But even to this day and when I

511
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: look at when they do fundraisers or when they have

512
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: like things live, the amount of harassment just for existing

513
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 1: to help women is incredible and the amount of just

514
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: trolls coming at them today when I'm like, oh my god,

515
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: have you not been listening to the fact that the

516
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: growing number of women who love gaming a b who

517
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: are actually here helping you, whether it's helping programming these

518
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: new games that you're really into and developing these new

519
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: characters that you're really into, but you don't want to

520
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: acknowledge that. It's such a whole level of like why

521
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: why do you hate women? So why does this industry

522
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: continue to foster a place of hate against women? Because

523
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: things like Twitch is still having complaints about, Hey, you

524
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: need to control the level of harassment that is happening,

525
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: but because of you being silent, nothing is happening. Absolutely,

526
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: And I think it speaks to Annie's point about this

527
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: idea of like, if you don't like it, you can leave.

528
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: I think that there's a misconception that women who game

529
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: are sort of putting themselves in a position to be

530
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,479
Speaker 1: harassed and if they don't want to be harassed, they

531
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: should leave. And it leaves out this idea of like, well,

532
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: women shouldn't have to be harassed just to play games, right,

533
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: And I think that for a lot of these women

534
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: who work in activision, I think the attitude is, you know,

535
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: we're working at a at a BREWI video game company,

536
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: what did you expect? Like it really puts the onus

537
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: on people who have been harassed and survivors to get

538
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: themselves out of situations that they should not be in

539
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: the first place. And I think that's exactly It's like

540
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: a cultural attitude that really blames survivors and blames victims

541
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: for you know, systems that they did not create that

542
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: leads to them being harmed, and you know it. It

543
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: is sam to your point. I do think that we

544
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: all know that games are better, more inclusive, more interesting

545
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: when they're built by inclusive teams, and so your products

546
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: can only be more engaging if women are around to

547
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: help design it. Like you were talking about how Lily's

548
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: Garden is a more fun game for you because you

549
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: can tell it was you know, put put together by

550
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: a woman, and it's better than the games where you

551
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: can tell this is designed by a team of men

552
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: who probably don't know any women, and you know, have

553
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: no sense of like what a woman is going to

554
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: want from a game like this, right, And so we

555
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: know that things are better when women are are included

556
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: and valued and supported and championed. And it makes me

557
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: sad that the gaming industry just can't get it together

558
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: to you know, reflect that reality. You know. The biggest

559
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: question to me, it's like, if you are a company

560
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: that wants to grow and truly are looking to make money,

561
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you want more people? If you all, do

562
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: you really want to just cater for half the population

563
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: when you can have the whole population? Hello? I really

564
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: think they hate women that much. Honestly, I don't think

565
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: they want them in their audience. And I say that

566
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: as someone who loves games, and I play plenty of

567
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: games made by women who were great and really inclusive,

568
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: and I played games made by men that are great,

569
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: really inclusive. But I feel like the industry at a whole,

570
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: especially this like console gaming level. They are so resistant

571
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: to it, and they're just like I think they don't

572
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 1: like they don't want women in their audience because they

573
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 1: think it will demean the value of their products. And

574
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: I think also they're so afraid of pissing off. They're

575
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: very angry because this is another note I want to make.

576
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: When they harass you, it's like threats to kill you

577
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: are rape you. It's not like, hey, you suck, it's

578
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: like I'm going to find your address and send it

579
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: to people, like right, it's scary. It jumps to this,

580
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to rape you and harm you in a

581
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: way that I know it's going to violate you and

582
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: make you know that I'm a man, which is in

583
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: itself whole level that honestly, all of this just again

584
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: kind of talks about when when you were talking about

585
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: this industry in general, about being a fat club or

586
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: a good old boy club. And I see that continuously

587
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: when you see the higher ups being just friends of theirs,

588
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: coming up with the same damn attitude that may have

589
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: a lesser record or the lesser known record than the

590
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: previous person, which is so like then you're just fostering

591
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: once again. More of this nastiness that you are saying

592
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: you want to prevent. Now, Oh, I completely agree. It's

593
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 1: such it's such a vicious toxic cycle. I don't actually

594
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: know if I believe that some of these places can

595
00:32:53,840 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: be reformed or improved without massive structural change. Is like

596
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: reading the Blizzard statement where they're like, oh, we're bringing

597
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: in a counselor we're bringing in a you know, we're

598
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: gonna do more training. I don't think that these men

599
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: need to be trained to know that signing your emails

600
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: one is not professional. I don't I don't think. I

601
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: don't think that that's going to cut it. I don't

602
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 1: think that like a training is going to be the

603
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: thing to to, you know, help men in this company

604
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: understand that crawling into your female coworkers office will drunk

605
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: to harass her is not acceptable workplace behavior. And so

606
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: I'm really curious if this can all be improved. But

607
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: it sounds to me so toxic from the very very top,

608
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: you know, the CEO to the guys who are playing

609
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: the games threatening to murder you, and the platforms being

610
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: like that's okay, that is that is you know, if

611
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: that that's part of gameplay if you don't want to

612
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: be involved in that, don't play the game. Like there

613
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: are just so many levels to how bad it is

614
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: that it can be very dismaying. And I do wonder too,

615
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: Like when you talk about them saying we're gonna bring

616
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: in counselors, we're gonna teach these tactics, and we're gonna

617
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, workplace safety and all this. But

618
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, who are you really keeping safe? If the

619
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 1: people that have made this place unsafe still exists there,

620
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: then who are you truly keeping safe? It's not the victims.

621
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 1: The victims have to be there with them. The victims

622
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: who have been threatened by these people, are harassed by

623
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: these people, are continually told, you know, all of these

624
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: nasty comments by these people, and all you're doing is

625
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: keeping them there, those perpetrators, and you're like, but we're

626
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: gonna help them and spend money on them. Who are

627
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,479
Speaker 1: you keeping safe? And That's that's like a common thing

628
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 1: up and down tex that I cannot stand where even

629
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: when somebody is like confirmed to be a harasser or

630
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: an abuser, or you know, somebody who has abused their power,

631
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: a lot of times these companies will go out of

632
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: their way to praise them or give them like lucrative

633
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: exit packages on the way out the door. And it

634
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 1: makes me like boils my blood. It enrages me. So.

635
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 1: A former Blizzard technology chief, Ben Kilgore, was fired after

636
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: an investigation into multiple allegations of sexual harassment. But he

637
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: was thanked quote for his many contributions over the last

638
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: four and a half years in an email by his

639
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: then boss. And what kind of messages that send somebody

640
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: who is fired for sexual harassment? Uh not? Like clearly

641
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: the company It was like, okay, these you know this happened,

642
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: we have to take action to fire him. Is really

643
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: necessary to praise him on the way out? And what

644
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: kind of signal do you think that it is sending

645
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: to the people that he harassed and the people who

646
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 1: have to work there after he leaves. Yeah, yep, get

647
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 1: some extra money and he did a great job. Just

648
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: ignore all that other stuff. It's cool. And this was

649
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: like in the face of wasn't it thirty employees saying

650
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 1: that they had experienced some type of harassment? That's right.

651
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: Female employees in their E sports department sent an email

652
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: the department heads saying that they had been subject to

653
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: unwanted touching to meeting comments, exclusions from important meetings, and

654
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: unsolicited remarks about their appearance. And again, uh Cochick was

655
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 1: aware of this email because he was one of the

656
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: people who got this email, and so him saying publicly like,

657
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: I'm not aware of any of these obligations. I've never

658
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: seen anything like this in my company. Blah blah blah.

659
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: It's just a lie. It's a way to save face,

660
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: and it to me makes it seem as though the

661
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: company is not really invested in or interested in cleaning

662
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 1: any of this up. They're interested in making a pr

663
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: problem go away and interested in uh making shareholders feel

664
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: good and feel, you know, like the company is in

665
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: good hands. I don't think they actually care about the

666
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: fact that they're they're people in their employee are are

667
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: going through this just to do their jobs. Yeah. No,

668
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: I totally agree. And I feel like a lot of

669
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: it to me gives the vibe of like really actually

670
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: wanting to hold on to this culture and the way

671
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: they've been able to treat women and believing and so

672
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: far very unfortunately it seems that it's working that that

673
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: people will just forget it and move on. That's not

674
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: to say, the employees haven't been really especially lately like

675
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: coming together and speaking out, which is amazing and I

676
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: really appreciate it, and I know how hard that is, um,

677
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: but yeah, I felt like their whole thing is at

678
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: least the higher ups are like, I'd want to continue

679
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: as is. Let's just way press to blow over. It's

680
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 1: gonna be fine. Yeah, And you know, to your point

681
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 1: about it seems like they want to keep this culture.

682
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: You said something earlier that kind of sparks something in

683
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 1: my mind, which is, we know that the most extreme

684
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: violent gamer dudes out there are like pretty scary and

685
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: pretty like I guess, very into the things that they're into,

686
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: and we've seen before when that when those when folks

687
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: like that feel like something that they are entitled to

688
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 1: is taken away from them. You know, there are so

689
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: many different instances in pop culture. When they made a

690
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 1: reboot of Ghostbusters with women, like, they're taking Ghostbusters away

691
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 1: from me. When Star Wars cast women and people of color,

692
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this institution that is mine is being

693
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: taken away from me. Part of me wonders if they

694
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: feel like they don't want to make significant changes to

695
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: this toxic misogynistic culture precisely because they want their core,

696
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: the people that they're thinking of as their core user base,

697
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: they want them to feel like, yeah, this toxic soup

698
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: of culture that we've created here is still yours. Like that,

699
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: no one is coming to like wocify your video games

700
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: at Blizzard, like we will continue to foster misogyny and

701
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 1: extremism and violence. That's a guarantee, you know what. Any right, Yeah, no,

702
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: I think there is something to that. I think there

703
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: is some kind of like wink wink thing happening of

704
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: like uh to their very angry, generally white male player base.

705
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: You know, we're not going to give in to these

706
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: feminists or these social justice warriors, like you know, we'll

707
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,919
Speaker 1: say something out loud, we'll do like a publicity thing,

708
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: but between us, it's gonna be fine. We're not gonna

709
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: mess with anything, and we're going to keep providing you

710
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: just for you, the entertainment. And as long as women

711
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: are quiet and know their role, then they can come in.

712
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: But otherwise they're not welcome here, and if they have

713
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: any problem with that, they can just leave. Oh exactly exactly,

714
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: any problem at all, Like, well, then leave, It's fine,

715
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: Samantha does I. I have one of my favorite games

716
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: that came out recently, The Last of Us Too, had

717
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: featured a woman in the main role. Mostly women game

718
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: or dudes hated it. They hated it, and they sent

719
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: like death threats to all the voice actors, all the creators.

720
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: So it's not just like it's the player. It's impacting

721
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: the player, but it's also impacting like companies and games

722
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: that are trying to show these other stories. And that's

723
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: just another way of silence seeing and and keeping it

724
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 1: like no, it has to look this way and very

725
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: gate kept, and and if so, you will receive a

726
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 1: death threat. Like it's just very it's a very toxic

727
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: space in a lot of ways. It makes me so

728
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: sad that, you know, companies like Activision are so big

729
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: that they really can, like what they do, can dictate

730
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: the rest of the industry. And like you said, it's

731
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: a top down thing. And so we're talking to voice talent,

732
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: we're talking designers, were talking women who write about games,

733
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: were like, the the impact that it can have when

734
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: a major player cultivates this kind of toxicity and massage

735
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: and the I think it really knows no bounds and

736
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: I'm really hurting to see staffers, you know, speaking up,

737
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: folks within the company speaking up. On Novembers having teenth,

738
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: a group of shareholders led by union pension group the

739
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: s OC Investment Group called for the resignation of Activision

740
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: CEO Bobby kotick Um and the retirement of two other

741
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: members of the board UM. And the letter was also

742
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: signed by you know, various kind of investment groups which

743
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: focus on supporting women across industries and UM the like.

744
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: Rank and file staff themselves are really speaking up, trying

745
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: to get Quo Tick to resign. UM advocacy group a

746
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: b K Workers Alliance recently published a document signed by

747
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: five DRED employees calling for Coote's removal s CEO UM.

748
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: They said, we the undersigned no longer have confidence in

749
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: the leadership of Bobby co Tick, a CEO of Activision,

750
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: and they walked out in mass to to protest this.

751
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: And I know that that is not easy. It's not

752
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 1: easy to speak up in a company like this where

753
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: it's already been documented that retaliation is a thing that happens.

754
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: And so kudos to these employees who were doing that,

755
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 1: But it seems like we're writing out Unfortunately, the board

756
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: is sticking with this CEO. You know, they said that

757
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: they have confidence in him. And I think this is

758
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: where things get a little bit business e because at

759
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: a certain point, you know, you have these investors and

760
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: shareholders in your company and it's like, I can understand

761
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: why this guy's leadership is not inspiring confidence in your

762
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: investment in this in this company. And it's like, like,

763
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: I agree with you that they're they're doing some sort

764
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: of wink wink, not non thing, but I think that

765
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: they are They should be beholden to their stakeholders and

766
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: the staff who have to deal with this environment that

767
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: they're cultivating. And it's like, I guess I wonder where

768
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: when does any kind of accountability come in? Like who

769
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: are you accountable to? And if not now when? Yeah?

770
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: And I think that was one of the most galling

771
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: things for the employees but also people who uh just

772
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 1: been watching the situation is that they seems so out

773
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: of touch with the statements they released after the walkout,

774
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: like they clearly were kind of like not getting the

775
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: point or purposefully skirting around the point. And then like

776
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: there's a whole and I'm trying to go into it

777
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: right now, But there was a woman who was in

778
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: charge of like the White House communications during Bush and

779
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: the Iraq War. She was in charge of the women's

780
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: gaming board there of like making sure that their voices

781
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: were heard, and she was like she tweeted something that

782
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: was called the problem with the whistleblowing while all this

783
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: was happening, Like Okay, so you're not really listening to us. Cool, cool,

784
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: and like we've gone over some names already, but they

785
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: were already like those are not the only names of

786
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: men at this company that I've done really horrible things. Yeah,

787
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: so it is like like you said, and it is.

788
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 1: It feels very overwhelming and it's so frustrating. I think

789
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: we recently did an episode where there's a new survey

790
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: came out, some new research came out and showed that like,

791
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 1: over the past ten years, the situation has actually gotten worse,

792
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: um in terms of representation in video games. I think

793
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: this was specifically characters and storylines and stuff. But that's it.

794
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: Just it does feel like a lot and it feels

795
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 1: like we aren't making a lot of progress. And I'm

796
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: happy to see people speaking up about it. Glad we're

797
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: talking about it, But yeah, it's with so much work

798
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: to be done, absolutely, and I think you know, it's

799
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 1: sad that it doesn't seem like a lot us improving.

800
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,280
Speaker 1: This month, the Anti Defamation League released a new study

801
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: that shows that six of young gamers experienced abuse or

802
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: harassment while playing games. Five out of six adults ages

803
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: eighteen to forty five experienced harassment and online multiplayer games,

804
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: representing eighty million adult gamers. Three out of five young

805
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,879
Speaker 1: people that age thirteen to seventeen experienced harassment and online

806
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: multiplayer games, and seventy one of adult online multiplayer gamers

807
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: experienced severe abuse, including physical threats, stalking, and sustained harassment.

808
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: So precisely the kind thing that you were talking about

809
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: dealing with when you were playing in these kinds of games.

810
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 1: And again not surprising, the largest increases in identity based

811
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: harassment occurred among adult respondents identified as women, black or

812
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: African American and Asian American. And so it's just bad.

813
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like a like a safe environment. And

814
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: I think given that so many young people are having

815
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: formative experiences in these environments, these companies owe it to

816
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,840
Speaker 1: them to figure out a way to foster safety and

817
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: actual community in the gameplay experience, but also in the

818
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: in the companies, in the boardrooms where these games get made.

819
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: Like it all at all to me is kind of

820
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: one big bucket. And I really think like the industry

821
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: has got to make some very very big changes if

822
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,799
Speaker 1: anything is going to get better. Yeah, and I would

823
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 1: like to add on here because I think sometimes this

824
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: gets lost in this discussion. But you know, you hear

825
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: in the media all the time like video games are

826
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: bad for your braid and might cause violence. It's not

827
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: even a want to say, is that show um they

828
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: can help with things like PTSD. They can they have

829
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,479
Speaker 1: positive impacts. And I know listeners have written in and said,

830
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: you know, for one reason or the other, I have

831
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: social anxiety or whatever the case may be. And I

832
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 1: really found this online community and it was so important

833
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 1: for me, and this gaming was so important for me

834
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: and in helping with whatever it is, and so like

835
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 1: all of this is bad and we should fix it.

836
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: But I also does have like real as I feel

837
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: like we always make this point, and I think it's

838
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: always important to make, but there's real world impacts of

839
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: these things on your health and on your the communities

840
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: you can form and even how you feel about yourself.

841
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 1: Um so I do think. Ye, this is really really

842
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: important conversation, right, And I just want to add those

843
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: because I was looking it up. I wanted to see

844
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: as you were talking about the board of supporting uh

845
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: cocheck and I'm like, so, how many women are on

846
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: the board. There's two, one just recently, so not surprising.

847
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: But then on top of that a new article saying

848
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: that they're so loose. Instead of having him resign is

849
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 1: to do a new committee that does a workplace responsibility

850
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: committee and they're going to watch over the workplace and

851
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: then talk to the directors who co take us a

852
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,479
Speaker 1: part of He's a director on those board. So you're like, wait,

853
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: they're not even looking at Why are they looking so

854
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: far right when this is the problem is right in

855
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: front of them and this is their solution. Fantastic way

856
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: to not read the room, guys, not read the room.

857
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: It's the other title for this episode. It's it's like,

858
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: I honestly think like parting ways with their CEO is

859
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: like the least they can do spending more money and

860
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 1: more time and more investment in like creating these kind

861
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 1: of bs toothless committees to do nothing. I think it's

862
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: just it just shows how how they're not meaningfully interested

863
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: in like actual change. It's just like like a band

864
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: aid and I've even a good a band aid at that.

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00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: You know. It's literally like, hey, they have told you

866
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,319
Speaker 1: what the problem is. This is the problem. Why are

867
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: you doing non work to be like, oh, we we

868
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: don't know what the problem is. We're gonna we're gonna

869
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: put another committee when they're like, no, it's clear there's

870
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 1: a petition. They've told you what could help to resolve what. Yeah,

871
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: don't y'all read the Wall Street Journal, because there's a

872
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: whole thing in here about what what's going on? Like

873
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: safer money, it's my paper. I mean, this is the

874
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: obvious when you're talking to Annie of like, oh no, okay,

875
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 1: we're just gonna pretend like we don't want to understand.

876
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:36,399
Speaker 1: It is sweeping under the rug. Then the yes, yes,

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00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: I have so many thoughts on this. Oh my, um,

878
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: but we should wrap it up for now. Thank you

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00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 1: as always, Ridget for coming where could the good listeners

880
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: find you? Thank you for having me. This is always

881
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: such a treat h. If you're interested in more discussions

882
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: on the Internet, technology and how women and people who

883
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: identify as women show up no spaces. You can check

884
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: out my podcast us to there are No Girls on

885
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: the Internet. We just did a really interesting couple episodes

886
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: all about the Astro World tragedy in Houston. So some

887
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: truly uh wild conspiracy theories coming out of there. So

888
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,439
Speaker 1: we have a really interesting episode with our researcher debunking them.

889
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: So please check it out and you can follow me

890
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Bridget Murray or on Instagram at Bridget

891
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 1: Murray in d C. Yes, and definitely do that if

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00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: you haven't already. Listeners and bridget Happy Weirdo Christmas. I

893
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: will Happy Weirdo Christmas to one at all. Yes, Yes,

894
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: thank you for introducing us to this holiday and thank

895
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: you listeners for listening. If you would like to contact us,

896
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: you can or email Stuff your mom Stuff at I

897
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 1: hurt media dot com. You can find us on Instagram

898
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 1: at Stuff I've Never Told You are on Twitter at

899
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always sure a super producer, Christina,

900
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks to you for listening. Stuff onever told

901
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: you protection by her radio for more podcast on my

902
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: Heart Radio I Heard You, ap Apple Podcast or wherever

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00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows blue,