1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:24,876 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Sometimes the realization that you need to reset your 2 00:00:24,916 --> 00:00:28,436 Speaker 1: relationship with your feelings comes from some minor or everyday event, 3 00:00:28,956 --> 00:00:31,916 Speaker 1: like losing your temper in the parking lot while grocery shopping. 4 00:00:32,356 --> 00:00:34,916 Speaker 1: But many of us have experienced a bigger, life changing 5 00:00:34,956 --> 00:00:37,516 Speaker 1: event that causes us to rethink how to deal with 6 00:00:37,516 --> 00:00:40,636 Speaker 1: our emotions. In the last episode, we heard from the 7 00:00:40,636 --> 00:00:44,156 Speaker 1: Harvard psychologist Susan David, who realized she needed to listen 8 00:00:44,196 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 1: to her negative feelings after the death of her father. 9 00:00:47,076 --> 00:00:51,996 Speaker 1: Now I felt so untethered from myself and so untethered 10 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:55,596 Speaker 1: in this experience of grief, and I started to respond 11 00:00:55,636 --> 00:00:59,636 Speaker 1: to that as so many people do when they experiencing 12 00:00:59,716 --> 00:01:05,316 Speaker 1: emotional pain, especially unprocessed emotional pain, which is for me 13 00:01:05,476 --> 00:01:08,636 Speaker 1: that took the form of binging and purging, refusing to 14 00:01:08,676 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: accept the full way to my grief. In this season 15 00:01:11,276 --> 00:01:13,396 Speaker 1: of the Happiness Lab, we're going to tackle a whole 16 00:01:13,476 --> 00:01:17,196 Speaker 1: range of uncomfortable, painful emotions, and we'll give you strategies 17 00:01:17,236 --> 00:01:19,436 Speaker 1: to learn from these feelings and respond to them in 18 00:01:19,436 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: ways that will make you happier. But I wanted to 19 00:01:22,156 --> 00:01:24,516 Speaker 1: start with the emotion that caused to Susan so much 20 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:27,556 Speaker 1: pain the one that prompted her to suppress her feelings 21 00:01:27,636 --> 00:01:31,796 Speaker 1: because they hurt so badly. Grief. We live in a 22 00:01:31,876 --> 00:01:33,716 Speaker 1: kind of age of what I don't think about, what 23 00:01:33,796 --> 00:01:37,196 Speaker 1: I didn't talk about, isn't going to hurt me. I'll 24 00:01:37,236 --> 00:01:40,316 Speaker 1: just turn away. And then when you are grieving and 25 00:01:40,396 --> 00:01:43,636 Speaker 1: you feel like this, grief often feels like fear, and 26 00:01:43,716 --> 00:01:46,556 Speaker 1: you have all of these competing feelings if angry and 27 00:01:46,716 --> 00:01:49,916 Speaker 1: sad and confused and lost and all of that at 28 00:01:49,996 --> 00:01:52,356 Speaker 1: the same time, you think you're somehow doing it wrong. 29 00:01:52,756 --> 00:01:56,036 Speaker 1: This is psychotherapist Julia Samuel. Julia is the author of 30 00:01:56,036 --> 00:01:58,796 Speaker 1: two best selling books about grief, Grief Works and This 31 00:01:58,836 --> 00:02:01,876 Speaker 1: Too Shall Pass. With all the difficult feelings that Julia 32 00:02:01,956 --> 00:02:04,236 Speaker 1: has found can come twisted up with grief, It's no 33 00:02:04,316 --> 00:02:07,756 Speaker 1: wonder that grieving is so tremendously painful. But as we'll 34 00:02:07,756 --> 00:02:09,756 Speaker 1: see with so many of the emotions we'll talk about 35 00:02:09,796 --> 00:02:12,156 Speaker 1: in this season, our instinct to run away from the 36 00:02:12,156 --> 00:02:15,996 Speaker 1: pain of grief is surprisingly ineffective. The science shows were 37 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:19,276 Speaker 1: best off when we address grief head on. We need 38 00:02:19,596 --> 00:02:23,076 Speaker 1: to allow the grief to come through us, storm its 39 00:02:23,116 --> 00:02:27,716 Speaker 1: way and change us and sort of come through in 40 00:02:27,756 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 1: this kind of often very chaotic and messy ways. It's 41 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:35,916 Speaker 1: often the things that you do to block the natural 42 00:02:35,956 --> 00:02:39,876 Speaker 1: grieving process that, in the end, do you harm. We're 43 00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:42,756 Speaker 1: going to devote two whole episodes to the strategies Julia 44 00:02:42,836 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 1: developed over the last thirty years to help her patients 45 00:02:45,556 --> 00:02:50,236 Speaker 1: and herself develop a better relationship with grief and spoiler alert, 46 00:02:50,436 --> 00:02:54,156 Speaker 1: there are no five stages involved and no euphemisms either, 47 00:02:54,596 --> 00:02:56,116 Speaker 1: you know, to get over it. We really do need 48 00:02:56,156 --> 00:02:58,676 Speaker 1: a relationship with the person who's passed away. By the way, 49 00:02:58,716 --> 00:03:00,876 Speaker 1: I never use the word pass to way okay, sorry, 50 00:03:00,916 --> 00:03:04,516 Speaker 1: because where did they pass to? Ok fair enough? It's 51 00:03:04,556 --> 00:03:07,476 Speaker 1: another kind of thing where you're denying the reality of death, 52 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:10,396 Speaker 1: like they died. It's the way we kind of protect 53 00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:14,116 Speaker 1: ourselves against the reality of it. We can't bear the 54 00:03:14,156 --> 00:03:15,796 Speaker 1: reality of it, so if we try and soften it 55 00:03:15,836 --> 00:03:18,436 Speaker 1: with words like passed away. Get ready to learn that 56 00:03:18,516 --> 00:03:21,716 Speaker 1: so many of our instincts about grief are wrong. You're 57 00:03:21,756 --> 00:03:24,876 Speaker 1: listening to the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Laurie Santos. 58 00:03:29,196 --> 00:03:33,916 Speaker 1: One of the things I love most about Diana was 59 00:03:34,636 --> 00:03:40,756 Speaker 1: her laugh. She had this incredibly raucous laugh that was 60 00:03:40,796 --> 00:03:43,116 Speaker 1: really quite loud, and she often put her hand to 61 00:03:43,156 --> 00:03:48,556 Speaker 1: her mouth, and it was incredibly infectious, and I really 62 00:03:48,596 --> 00:03:51,876 Speaker 1: miss her. Love. Coping with grief isn't just a professional 63 00:03:51,876 --> 00:03:55,916 Speaker 1: pursuit for Julia. It's deeply personal. Twenty five years ago, 64 00:03:56,196 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 1: Julia's best friend died suddenly in a car crash. That 65 00:03:59,716 --> 00:04:03,836 Speaker 1: day is still vivid in Julia's memory and actually in mine. 66 00:04:04,636 --> 00:04:07,916 Speaker 1: If you're old enough, you may remember it too, because 67 00:04:07,996 --> 00:04:13,516 Speaker 1: Julia's best friend, Diana was Princess Diana. Despite Julia's training 68 00:04:13,516 --> 00:04:16,156 Speaker 1: as a psychologist, some of the ways she grieved after 69 00:04:16,196 --> 00:04:19,436 Speaker 1: this tragedy still caught her by surprise. I guess what 70 00:04:19,516 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 1: I was shocked by was my initial response was that 71 00:04:22,876 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: I was kind of angry at the huge public response, 72 00:04:26,636 --> 00:04:28,876 Speaker 1: which of course I recognize is that people had a 73 00:04:28,956 --> 00:04:31,356 Speaker 1: relationship with her and they loved her in their own way. 74 00:04:31,636 --> 00:04:34,436 Speaker 1: But I kind of was sort of outraged at everybody 75 00:04:34,476 --> 00:04:37,876 Speaker 1: else's loss when mine felt so personal and so deep. 76 00:04:38,716 --> 00:04:40,676 Speaker 1: She told me about a moment in which she desperately 77 00:04:40,676 --> 00:04:43,436 Speaker 1: wanted to look back at her photos of Diana, but 78 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:46,276 Speaker 1: then immediately found them really hard to deal with. This 79 00:04:46,516 --> 00:04:51,396 Speaker 1: is translatable to anyone experiencing loss, is that we need 80 00:04:51,436 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 1: to oscillate between the loss orientation and the restoration orientation 81 00:04:56,036 --> 00:04:58,996 Speaker 1: of being okay, so that when I kind of wanted 82 00:04:59,036 --> 00:05:01,436 Speaker 1: to connect to her and be close to her, I'd 83 00:05:01,476 --> 00:05:04,636 Speaker 1: look at her photo and remember the times that we 84 00:05:04,756 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 1: had and feel sad or all the other different feelings 85 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:10,356 Speaker 1: I felt. And then at other times I don't want 86 00:05:10,396 --> 00:05:11,756 Speaker 1: to get on with my day, so I put the 87 00:05:11,756 --> 00:05:14,396 Speaker 1: photo in the drawer. I kind of turned to my 88 00:05:14,516 --> 00:05:16,876 Speaker 1: day and it should be at the back of my mind. 89 00:05:16,876 --> 00:05:19,356 Speaker 1: All other people that have died you know that I've loved. 90 00:05:19,916 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 1: Then you kind of can choose after the initial months 91 00:05:23,556 --> 00:05:26,356 Speaker 1: maybe longer, you can choose to move in and out 92 00:05:26,396 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 1: of it, and so you know, the love for the 93 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:33,316 Speaker 1: person never dies. And what I kind of recognize is 94 00:05:33,476 --> 00:05:36,876 Speaker 1: that the relationship continues through the love although the person 95 00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:41,276 Speaker 1: is no longer present, and it's having touchstones to that 96 00:05:41,436 --> 00:05:43,996 Speaker 1: memory that it may be looking at their photo, it 97 00:05:44,076 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 1: may be writing them a post guard that allow you 98 00:05:47,276 --> 00:05:49,916 Speaker 1: to move in and feel connected to them and feel 99 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:54,196 Speaker 1: the love and then moving away and doing something else 100 00:05:54,476 --> 00:05:56,076 Speaker 1: where you get on with your life and live and 101 00:05:56,076 --> 00:05:58,316 Speaker 1: love again. It's also one of the reasons I think 102 00:05:58,316 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 1: that grief can stick around for so long. I mean, 103 00:06:00,756 --> 00:06:02,796 Speaker 1: in this case, twenty five years have gone by, but 104 00:06:02,916 --> 00:06:05,596 Speaker 1: there's constant reminders. Is that the kind of typical path 105 00:06:05,636 --> 00:06:08,436 Speaker 1: of grief that it keeps coming back in these ways? Yes, 106 00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:12,116 Speaker 1: I mean, I I think my parents' generation, who were 107 00:06:12,636 --> 00:06:15,196 Speaker 1: children of the First World War and fought in the 108 00:06:15,236 --> 00:06:19,196 Speaker 1: Second World War, their attitude to grief was very kind 109 00:06:19,196 --> 00:06:21,756 Speaker 1: of mechanistic that you forget and move on. What you 110 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:23,996 Speaker 1: don't think about, what you don't talk about, isn't going 111 00:06:24,036 --> 00:06:26,916 Speaker 1: to hurt you. And I think what we recognize now 112 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:31,276 Speaker 1: from great research, like psychologists like you and others, is 113 00:06:31,596 --> 00:06:34,956 Speaker 1: that we are not robots. You can't switch somebody off, 114 00:06:35,516 --> 00:06:39,196 Speaker 1: and so there can be kind of real connections to 115 00:06:39,276 --> 00:06:43,556 Speaker 1: that person, often through the senses that you don't expect site, sound, 116 00:06:43,636 --> 00:06:46,996 Speaker 1: touch and smile. So seeing a relation or someone, or 117 00:06:47,036 --> 00:06:49,916 Speaker 1: the back of someone's head, or hearing a piece of 118 00:06:49,996 --> 00:06:53,516 Speaker 1: music or eating a particular dish that reminds you of them, 119 00:06:53,756 --> 00:06:58,756 Speaker 1: that image of them unexpectedly can come up with videolight recall. 120 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:02,116 Speaker 1: And I guess most of those memories later on a 121 00:07:02,196 --> 00:07:05,156 Speaker 1: quite bitter sweet. They're sweet and they're oh, that's so 122 00:07:05,316 --> 00:07:07,756 Speaker 1: lovely to remember that, you know, if it's a piece 123 00:07:07,796 --> 00:07:10,036 Speaker 1: of music and you went to a concert together, and 124 00:07:10,076 --> 00:07:14,116 Speaker 1: then it's accompanied by the sadness like, oh, I wish 125 00:07:14,196 --> 00:07:15,956 Speaker 1: you were here and that we could do that again, 126 00:07:16,116 --> 00:07:18,596 Speaker 1: or I could talk to you about this, or that 127 00:07:18,836 --> 00:07:22,036 Speaker 1: is lifelong in everybody's kind of experience of grief. I 128 00:07:22,076 --> 00:07:24,396 Speaker 1: wanted to start off with kind of the broad question, 129 00:07:24,436 --> 00:07:26,796 Speaker 1: which is just what is grief? You've been studying this 130 00:07:26,996 --> 00:07:30,156 Speaker 1: for many decades now, you know what is this concept? 131 00:07:30,196 --> 00:07:32,836 Speaker 1: How should we describe it? You know, bereavement is when 132 00:07:33,076 --> 00:07:35,236 Speaker 1: a loss has happened to you, and it could be 133 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 1: the death of someone that is significant to you, or 134 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:39,636 Speaker 1: it could be a living loss, so it could be 135 00:07:39,636 --> 00:07:42,476 Speaker 1: the loss of your job or a relationship, moving country, 136 00:07:42,676 --> 00:07:46,556 Speaker 1: living in a global pandemic. And grief is the emotional 137 00:07:46,556 --> 00:07:48,876 Speaker 1: experience that you feel as a result of the loss. 138 00:07:49,316 --> 00:07:54,196 Speaker 1: And it's very kind of subjective. It's very uniquely your own, 139 00:07:54,476 --> 00:08:00,156 Speaker 1: and it's a messy, chaotic, tricky business. And the difficulty 140 00:08:00,196 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 1: of it is is that it's also unpredictable. You know, 141 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 1: the word grief is such a tidy little word, and 142 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 1: we'd like our experiences and our emotions to match what 143 00:08:11,036 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 1: we want, and that isn't the case with grief, it 144 00:08:13,916 --> 00:08:17,796 Speaker 1: brings up in us a lot of competing and conflicting 145 00:08:17,836 --> 00:08:24,556 Speaker 1: feelings of anger, sadness, rage, fear, despair, and we find 146 00:08:24,596 --> 00:08:27,756 Speaker 1: it very hard to hold and endure and let ourselves 147 00:08:28,156 --> 00:08:32,276 Speaker 1: experience those feelings. And often because we haven't talked about 148 00:08:32,356 --> 00:08:35,276 Speaker 1: grief or death, we're ignorant about what is normal and 149 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:38,636 Speaker 1: what isn't normal, and so we may turn on ourselves 150 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:41,716 Speaker 1: and attack ourselves with how we're feeling, and that of 151 00:08:41,716 --> 00:08:45,476 Speaker 1: course makes the whole process much more complex, much more 152 00:08:45,516 --> 00:08:49,836 Speaker 1: likely to lead to complicated grieving or prolonged grief because 153 00:08:50,276 --> 00:08:53,556 Speaker 1: the purpose of grief is that pain is the agent 154 00:08:53,636 --> 00:08:56,476 Speaker 1: to change. So the pain of grief, when we allow 155 00:08:56,516 --> 00:08:59,876 Speaker 1: it to come through our system, forces us to face 156 00:08:59,916 --> 00:09:02,276 Speaker 1: this reality that we don't want to look at that 157 00:09:02,316 --> 00:09:04,676 Speaker 1: this person that I love or this thing in my 158 00:09:04,716 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 1: life that I was really attached to is no longer here. 159 00:09:07,756 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 1: So it's information and we are wired to adapt, we 160 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:15,476 Speaker 1: are wired to heal and have hope. That's where people 161 00:09:15,516 --> 00:09:18,236 Speaker 1: can really stay stuck in their grief is when they 162 00:09:18,316 --> 00:09:21,556 Speaker 1: block the natural grieving process. I mean, I think right now, 163 00:09:21,596 --> 00:09:24,756 Speaker 1: modern culture just assumed we can fix everything, like there's 164 00:09:24,796 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: some solution into all these things, but death seems to 165 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:29,796 Speaker 1: be this thing that there's just like not a solution for. 166 00:09:30,036 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 1: Is this kind of part of why grief is so hard? Yes, 167 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:36,116 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I may be wrong, and maybe 168 00:09:36,196 --> 00:09:38,156 Speaker 1: your listeners will be angry with me, but I think 169 00:09:38,356 --> 00:09:41,876 Speaker 1: in the US there's even greater death of denial than 170 00:09:42,276 --> 00:09:45,476 Speaker 1: in the UK and Europe. And you know, when I've 171 00:09:45,476 --> 00:09:48,596 Speaker 1: taught at universities and colleges in the US, the kind 172 00:09:48,636 --> 00:09:51,636 Speaker 1: of message I've got is that somehow dying is a 173 00:09:51,676 --> 00:09:55,476 Speaker 1: failure and that winning is when we can use medicine, 174 00:09:55,596 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 1: technology and man's brilliance to overcome death. And you know, 175 00:10:00,476 --> 00:10:02,756 Speaker 1: that is living in death denial, and it can often 176 00:10:02,836 --> 00:10:06,476 Speaker 1: make the dying much more protected and painful. And the 177 00:10:06,596 --> 00:10:09,956 Speaker 1: sort of weighing up of choices of quality of life 178 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:13,036 Speaker 1: or length of life is in the actual time is 179 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:16,476 Speaker 1: very is often ignored. After the break, we'll hear more 180 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:19,716 Speaker 1: reasons why grief is so difficult to look at, but 181 00:10:19,796 --> 00:10:22,196 Speaker 1: we'll also see that knowing more about how this emotion 182 00:10:22,276 --> 00:10:27,316 Speaker 1: operates culturally, mentally, and biologically can help us more effectively 183 00:10:27,316 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: face the reality of it and maybe even to learn 184 00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:42,796 Speaker 1: from it. The happiness lab will be right back. Death 185 00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:46,036 Speaker 1: is an inevitable part of existence, but most of us 186 00:10:46,076 --> 00:10:49,476 Speaker 1: aren't even comfortable thinking about it, let alone talking about it. 187 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:52,636 Speaker 1: We worry about the deaths of specific people in our 188 00:10:52,636 --> 00:10:56,116 Speaker 1: lives and like to completely avoid the idea that all 189 00:10:56,156 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 1: life will come to an end. Psychotherapist and best selling 190 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:03,436 Speaker 1: author Julia Samuel thinks this cultural taboo makes our experiences 191 00:11:03,436 --> 00:11:07,476 Speaker 1: of grief so much more difficult to handle. Since medicine 192 00:11:07,516 --> 00:11:11,276 Speaker 1: and basically the First World War, we've kind of denied death, 193 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 1: Whereas in the Victorian times, you talked about death, you 194 00:11:14,476 --> 00:11:18,156 Speaker 1: wore black armbands, you saw death, you'd see a body 195 00:11:18,196 --> 00:11:21,116 Speaker 1: in your home. Death was very much part of life. 196 00:11:21,116 --> 00:11:23,876 Speaker 1: There are all these Victorian black and white photographs of 197 00:11:23,956 --> 00:11:27,156 Speaker 1: the person at dives surrounded by their family. And when 198 00:11:27,156 --> 00:11:29,716 Speaker 1: I suggest to someone now, maybe you'd like to take 199 00:11:29,756 --> 00:11:33,156 Speaker 1: a photograph of your father or grandfather or sibling that's dick, 200 00:11:33,196 --> 00:11:35,836 Speaker 1: they're kind of like horrified, as if it's kind of 201 00:11:35,876 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 1: disgusting and I'm asking them to dig into their entrails. 202 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:43,036 Speaker 1: But actually the task of mourning is to face the 203 00:11:43,116 --> 00:11:46,836 Speaker 1: reality of the death. Facing that reality in ourselves and 204 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:50,196 Speaker 1: for those that we love is really vital for our 205 00:11:50,556 --> 00:11:53,236 Speaker 1: mental health. I would say this idea of not being 206 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:55,796 Speaker 1: able to face death, I feel like is particularly bad 207 00:11:55,956 --> 00:11:59,516 Speaker 1: for people who themselves are alive now but maybe facing 208 00:11:59,516 --> 00:12:02,716 Speaker 1: a terminal disease. Right. It's really hard for them to 209 00:12:02,756 --> 00:12:04,556 Speaker 1: embrace it. But it's also really hard for the people 210 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:06,716 Speaker 1: around them to talk about it. You know. I know 211 00:12:06,756 --> 00:12:09,676 Speaker 1: you've talked a lot about how people who are working 212 00:12:09,676 --> 00:12:12,196 Speaker 1: with somebody who's about to face grief really need to 213 00:12:12,236 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 1: help with this. But you know, this issue of not 214 00:12:14,756 --> 00:12:16,956 Speaker 1: wanting to face it, wanting to control it and pretend 215 00:12:16,996 --> 00:12:18,716 Speaker 1: it's not happening there seems to come up a lot 216 00:12:18,796 --> 00:12:21,116 Speaker 1: for people who are about to face you know, something 217 00:12:21,116 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 1: that's really grief inducing too. I completely agree, and that 218 00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:27,596 Speaker 1: grief starts at the point of diagnosis. The moment you 219 00:12:27,716 --> 00:12:31,476 Speaker 1: have a diagnosis that limits your life, whether it's a 220 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:34,996 Speaker 1: few years or months or weeks, your perception of yourself 221 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:38,956 Speaker 1: and everyone around you changes. And again it's this magical thinking, 222 00:12:39,076 --> 00:12:42,356 Speaker 1: is that sort of if I love you and you 223 00:12:42,396 --> 00:12:45,476 Speaker 1: love me, we have to act like everything's going to 224 00:12:45,556 --> 00:12:48,876 Speaker 1: be okay, because that's going to make everything be okay, 225 00:12:48,996 --> 00:12:52,036 Speaker 1: And so you can actually build these walls of the 226 00:12:52,116 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 1: kind of miscommunication and protect which are intended with protection 227 00:12:57,196 --> 00:12:59,756 Speaker 1: that mean that you're kind of lonely behind these walls 228 00:12:59,756 --> 00:13:01,796 Speaker 1: of fear around your own death or fear of the 229 00:13:01,836 --> 00:13:04,236 Speaker 1: partner that you love or your parent that's dying, and 230 00:13:04,356 --> 00:13:09,236 Speaker 1: you don't have those important conversations. Because the thing that 231 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:12,596 Speaker 1: will predict both good outcomes for the survivors of the 232 00:13:12,636 --> 00:13:16,596 Speaker 1: death and the person facing death having it more peaceful 233 00:13:16,796 --> 00:13:22,716 Speaker 1: and calm is by communicating, having those vital conversations about 234 00:13:22,916 --> 00:13:25,836 Speaker 1: am I frightened? What do I believe in? Do I 235 00:13:25,876 --> 00:13:29,596 Speaker 1: want to be cremated or buried? What are the unanswered questions? 236 00:13:29,756 --> 00:13:36,596 Speaker 1: And those important conversations and tender conversations, I love you 237 00:13:37,916 --> 00:13:40,956 Speaker 1: for those that survive them are the kind of bedrock 238 00:13:41,276 --> 00:13:43,716 Speaker 1: of what you go back to and you revisit for 239 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:47,556 Speaker 1: the rest of your life. And if you miss that opportunity, 240 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:50,876 Speaker 1: if you don't kind of resolve the things or ask 241 00:13:50,916 --> 00:13:53,596 Speaker 1: the things that you need to, you're then stuck with 242 00:13:53,636 --> 00:13:55,956 Speaker 1: them and they kind of can ruminate and kind of 243 00:13:55,996 --> 00:13:58,556 Speaker 1: go round and round in your head endlessly. And so 244 00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 1: this is I think part of the problem when it 245 00:14:00,796 --> 00:14:03,556 Speaker 1: comes to grief. I mean, grief is painful and it's 246 00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:05,956 Speaker 1: hard to get through, but we also have these really 247 00:14:05,956 --> 00:14:08,916 Speaker 1: bad theories about it. Right. I think grief also feels 248 00:14:08,916 --> 00:14:11,796 Speaker 1: like these many emotions that we want to control, and 249 00:14:11,836 --> 00:14:13,636 Speaker 1: I think that's in part because a lot of people 250 00:14:13,676 --> 00:14:16,996 Speaker 1: have these theories about how grief is going to work. Yeah, 251 00:14:17,036 --> 00:14:19,276 Speaker 1: So Kubla Ras had this idea of these like five 252 00:14:19,356 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 1: stages of grief. I think she listed them as denial, anger, bargaining, depression, 253 00:14:23,516 --> 00:14:26,116 Speaker 1: and acceptance. But this can kind of lead us to 254 00:14:26,156 --> 00:14:28,516 Speaker 1: think that you're supposed to go through stages in like 255 00:14:28,636 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 1: this perfect order, right, and so talk about why this 256 00:14:31,436 --> 00:14:33,716 Speaker 1: this view is a little bit wrong according to the science. 257 00:14:34,076 --> 00:14:36,756 Speaker 1: I have huge respect for Kubler Ross and of course 258 00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:39,916 Speaker 1: all of those aspects there are important aspects of grief 259 00:14:39,996 --> 00:14:42,716 Speaker 1: that you can fight it and kind of try and 260 00:14:43,076 --> 00:14:45,796 Speaker 1: force your will over it, and in the end you 261 00:14:45,876 --> 00:14:48,036 Speaker 1: have to come to terms with it or you can 262 00:14:48,276 --> 00:14:52,436 Speaker 1: kind of feel very depressed. But what I think what 263 00:14:52,556 --> 00:14:55,036 Speaker 1: it's taken is that people kind of think that they 264 00:14:55,276 --> 00:14:58,356 Speaker 1: can root march themselves in that order, like it's a 265 00:14:58,396 --> 00:15:01,636 Speaker 1: step and a path that they can follow, and then 266 00:15:01,636 --> 00:15:05,396 Speaker 1: if they're not doing bargaining after denial, that somehow they've 267 00:15:05,436 --> 00:15:07,516 Speaker 1: got it the wrong way round. And of course we 268 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:10,396 Speaker 1: can feel all of those things a day. You can 269 00:15:10,436 --> 00:15:13,356 Speaker 1: have moments of acceptance, you can have moments of fury, 270 00:15:13,436 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: you can have moments of denial within half an hour. 271 00:15:17,316 --> 00:15:21,756 Speaker 1: But I think what's useful about them is recognizing that 272 00:15:21,796 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 1: those feelings we do not naturally befriend, you know, we 273 00:15:27,036 --> 00:15:29,916 Speaker 1: have a problem with those feelings. And so I think 274 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:31,916 Speaker 1: when we think about why grief might be there in 275 00:15:31,956 --> 00:15:34,276 Speaker 1: the first place, it's helpful to think about what grief 276 00:15:34,516 --> 00:15:37,156 Speaker 1: is from sort of a biological perspective, you know, So 277 00:15:37,236 --> 00:15:39,476 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the physiology of grief. What 278 00:15:39,596 --> 00:15:42,116 Speaker 1: is it doing to our nervous system? So, I mean 279 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:45,636 Speaker 1: you probably know more about this idea, but I mean 280 00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:50,196 Speaker 1: it's our autonomic nervous system under threat goes into fight 281 00:15:50,276 --> 00:15:53,676 Speaker 1: flight or freeze, so kind of go into fourth gear, 282 00:15:53,956 --> 00:15:56,316 Speaker 1: and you can get locked into fourth gear. And of 283 00:15:56,316 --> 00:15:59,636 Speaker 1: course if you're in fight flight or freeze, your capacity 284 00:15:59,716 --> 00:16:02,316 Speaker 1: to cognate, to make sense of things, to make good 285 00:16:02,356 --> 00:16:06,756 Speaker 1: decisions goes offline because you're just they're kind of looking 286 00:16:06,756 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 1: for survival. Physiologically, your whole body shifts to accommodate that, 287 00:16:12,476 --> 00:16:14,356 Speaker 1: so that you may be very short of breath, You 288 00:16:14,396 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 1: may lose your appetite, you may not be able to sleep. 289 00:16:16,676 --> 00:16:19,956 Speaker 1: Some people sleep a lot. Grief often feels like fear, 290 00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:22,556 Speaker 1: so you feel like you know there's this gun or 291 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:25,636 Speaker 1: as people talk about this tiger that's just about to 292 00:16:25,636 --> 00:16:29,276 Speaker 1: come and get you. We know that your heart in 293 00:16:29,316 --> 00:16:33,036 Speaker 1: the first six weeks after a very significant death is 294 00:16:33,196 --> 00:16:35,596 Speaker 1: more likely to have a heart attack, So that feeling 295 00:16:35,636 --> 00:16:39,716 Speaker 1: of being broken hearted isn't just a feeling, it's physiological, 296 00:16:40,116 --> 00:16:45,076 Speaker 1: and pain hits the same neurotransmitters as physical pain. Emotional 297 00:16:45,076 --> 00:16:48,436 Speaker 1: pain hits the neuropathogenic pain. So grief is embodied. The 298 00:16:48,476 --> 00:16:51,796 Speaker 1: mind and the body are completely interconnected. And what clients 299 00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:54,716 Speaker 1: talk to me about is that they often talk about 300 00:16:54,756 --> 00:16:58,076 Speaker 1: their heart hurting, it feels broken, or they put their 301 00:16:58,076 --> 00:17:01,396 Speaker 1: hands on their chest this tightness and this kind of 302 00:17:01,756 --> 00:17:05,316 Speaker 1: frozenness in their chest, so they feel like their capacity 303 00:17:05,436 --> 00:17:07,996 Speaker 1: is very brittle and kind of locked. I mean, I 304 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:11,116 Speaker 1: think this is so powerful because when you recognize it's embodied, 305 00:17:11,156 --> 00:17:14,036 Speaker 1: when you recognize that grief is your body's reaction to 306 00:17:14,316 --> 00:17:16,916 Speaker 1: a typical threat like a tiger, it kind of makes 307 00:17:16,916 --> 00:17:19,276 Speaker 1: so much more sense, especially when you realize that threat 308 00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:21,236 Speaker 1: hasn't gone away. You know, every day you wake up 309 00:17:21,236 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 1: and the loss and the threat is still there. And 310 00:17:23,316 --> 00:17:25,676 Speaker 1: so you know, if you've seen that, kind of thinking 311 00:17:25,676 --> 00:17:27,916 Speaker 1: more about the physiology of this can give people a 312 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:31,116 Speaker 1: little bit more patience with their grief. Knowledge is power. 313 00:17:31,676 --> 00:17:33,676 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that is the kind 314 00:17:33,676 --> 00:17:37,996 Speaker 1: of least sexy tip I give people is like, take exercise, 315 00:17:38,276 --> 00:17:42,116 Speaker 1: move your body around. You will always feel different. If 316 00:17:42,156 --> 00:17:45,996 Speaker 1: you're kind of in that awful, kind of locked, terrorized 317 00:17:46,036 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 1: state and you just can't face the day, get outside 318 00:17:49,636 --> 00:17:53,436 Speaker 1: wherever you live, get outside, move your body, come back 319 00:17:53,476 --> 00:17:57,316 Speaker 1: and do something that intentionally calms you, that intentionally soothes you. 320 00:17:57,396 --> 00:17:58,916 Speaker 1: For me, that would be a cup of tea because 321 00:17:58,956 --> 00:18:03,916 Speaker 1: I'm English. Ideally, get a hug, journal right down what 322 00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:07,276 Speaker 1: you're feeling, because then you you've kind of released some 323 00:18:07,356 --> 00:18:10,556 Speaker 1: of that tightness and you've let you your head and 324 00:18:10,796 --> 00:18:13,956 Speaker 1: your heart kind of connect with each other with your body, 325 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:17,516 Speaker 1: and then you're more an integrated, like calm a whole 326 00:18:17,636 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: because you've kind of aligned with each other. Otherwise they're 327 00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:22,796 Speaker 1: all out of thoughts and you. I mean, grief feels 328 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:25,596 Speaker 1: like madness. People often say I feel like I'm going mad. 329 00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 1: Or I am mad, so the bodily things you do 330 00:18:29,276 --> 00:18:32,876 Speaker 1: to calm yourself down. And you've done much more research 331 00:18:32,916 --> 00:18:34,756 Speaker 1: on this than I have, but it is more and more, 332 00:18:35,076 --> 00:18:38,356 Speaker 1: it's more and more powerful. How important our mind and 333 00:18:38,436 --> 00:18:42,476 Speaker 1: body and exercises. If grief can feel like madness, facing 334 00:18:42,476 --> 00:18:45,516 Speaker 1: a loaded gun or being chased by a tiger, it's 335 00:18:45,516 --> 00:18:48,716 Speaker 1: no wonder people would rather shove this feeling away. In 336 00:18:48,796 --> 00:18:51,436 Speaker 1: Julia's experience, even the people who come to her to 337 00:18:51,436 --> 00:18:54,076 Speaker 1: get help are in a hurry to put grief behind them. 338 00:18:54,116 --> 00:18:56,036 Speaker 1: You know very much that you talk about we want 339 00:18:56,036 --> 00:18:58,356 Speaker 1: to be happy, we want to be getting on. And 340 00:18:58,436 --> 00:19:01,356 Speaker 1: one of the first questions people often say to me 341 00:19:01,476 --> 00:19:03,796 Speaker 1: is they walk through my door, is how long am 342 00:19:03,796 --> 00:19:05,796 Speaker 1: I going to feel like this? You know? Am I 343 00:19:05,876 --> 00:19:08,196 Speaker 1: ever going to get better? When am I going to 344 00:19:08,276 --> 00:19:11,316 Speaker 1: get over it? Will learn her surprising answer when the 345 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:23,876 Speaker 1: Happiness Lab returns in a moment. Julia Samuel has been 346 00:19:23,916 --> 00:19:27,516 Speaker 1: counseling people about grief for over thirty years. Her clients 347 00:19:27,516 --> 00:19:29,876 Speaker 1: often come to her wanting to know when the pain 348 00:19:29,916 --> 00:19:32,556 Speaker 1: will subside, how soon will they be able to get 349 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:35,596 Speaker 1: back to being their old selves. The answer is what 350 00:19:35,676 --> 00:19:39,356 Speaker 1: Julia calls the paradox of grief. To get through the feelings, 351 00:19:39,636 --> 00:19:42,396 Speaker 1: we have to let them in. It's the paradox. The 352 00:19:42,476 --> 00:19:47,276 Speaker 1: more you give yourself the courage to face and think 353 00:19:47,316 --> 00:19:50,596 Speaker 1: about these things and find it kind of embrace what 354 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:55,476 Speaker 1: you most fear, then it's actually liberating and you engage 355 00:19:55,516 --> 00:19:57,836 Speaker 1: with the life that you do have, knowing that it 356 00:19:57,996 --> 00:20:01,036 Speaker 1: is time limited, knowing that the people that you love 357 00:20:01,196 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 1: and care about most are all gonna die, and that 358 00:20:04,236 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 1: it's unpredictable. We don't have control, and I think one 359 00:20:07,756 --> 00:20:11,876 Speaker 1: of the things from the pandemic was we recognized our 360 00:20:11,956 --> 00:20:16,196 Speaker 1: lack of control over many, many kind of things in life. 361 00:20:16,276 --> 00:20:19,236 Speaker 1: And I think what has always been true is the 362 00:20:19,276 --> 00:20:21,956 Speaker 1: things that we care about most, whether people love us 363 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:24,236 Speaker 1: or don't love us, and when we're going to live 364 00:20:24,316 --> 00:20:26,476 Speaker 1: or die, we can influence, we can shape it by 365 00:20:26,476 --> 00:20:29,996 Speaker 1: our lifestyle, but we have no control. And it is 366 00:20:30,036 --> 00:20:34,076 Speaker 1: fascinating how we kid ourselves. Fundamentally, my messages you don't 367 00:20:34,076 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 1: have control, and this is the paradox, right is to 368 00:20:37,196 --> 00:20:40,196 Speaker 1: get through grief, we need to recognize our lack of control. 369 00:20:40,676 --> 00:20:43,436 Speaker 1: We need to embrace the fact that we're going to 370 00:20:43,476 --> 00:20:46,196 Speaker 1: have to feel negative emotions towards you through this negative 371 00:20:46,276 --> 00:20:48,436 Speaker 1: you know, why are they negative? Yeah? Please? Who says 372 00:20:48,436 --> 00:20:53,516 Speaker 1: that negative? No? Total? Yeah? What makes them bad? Yeah? 373 00:20:53,556 --> 00:20:55,476 Speaker 1: So talk a little bit about I think this is 374 00:20:55,476 --> 00:20:58,036 Speaker 1: so important because this is part of what we're doing 375 00:20:58,076 --> 00:21:00,356 Speaker 1: in this series for the next month, is to sort 376 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:03,036 Speaker 1: of think about emotions being good and so, you know, 377 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:05,876 Speaker 1: explain a little bit that we don't necessarily have to 378 00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:08,436 Speaker 1: think of grief as a negative emotion, like why is it? 379 00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:10,556 Speaker 1: Why can it be a positive signal for us? Why 380 00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:13,876 Speaker 1: can it be helpful for us? I wouldn't even frame 381 00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:17,636 Speaker 1: it as negative or positive. I would frame it as 382 00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:25,716 Speaker 1: it's important process that we have to paradoxically allowed to embrace. 383 00:21:25,996 --> 00:21:29,596 Speaker 1: If I look at feeling sad as a negative, that 384 00:21:29,596 --> 00:21:32,796 Speaker 1: that's a bad thing and that it's going to make 385 00:21:32,836 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 1: me miserable, I am compounding my relationship with sadness and tears. 386 00:21:38,636 --> 00:21:42,396 Speaker 1: If I think of my sadness as a natural, expressive 387 00:21:42,556 --> 00:21:46,796 Speaker 1: emotion that is actually wired in me to help me feel, 388 00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:51,356 Speaker 1: and I will feel released and better after I felt sad, 389 00:21:51,596 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 1: certainly after I've cried. I am supporting myself in that 390 00:21:56,156 --> 00:22:00,036 Speaker 1: feeling of my sadness. But if I come at it like, oh, sadness, 391 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:04,076 Speaker 1: Oh that's bad. I only want to feel happy. I'm 392 00:22:04,196 --> 00:22:07,116 Speaker 1: kind of stopping myself at the starting block before I 393 00:22:07,316 --> 00:22:09,756 Speaker 1: even had a moment to let it do it's thing. 394 00:22:10,036 --> 00:22:13,836 Speaker 1: The response we often have to grief is so counterproductive. 395 00:22:13,956 --> 00:22:16,476 Speaker 1: We try to suppress our grief, you know, we kind 396 00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:18,836 Speaker 1: of like put the lid on this pressure cooker. So 397 00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:21,156 Speaker 1: talk about from the perspective or a physiology, why that's 398 00:22:21,196 --> 00:22:24,596 Speaker 1: so bad trying to suppress all these emotions fear, anger, 399 00:22:24,636 --> 00:22:28,476 Speaker 1: sadness that we're experiencing. I love the image of a 400 00:22:28,476 --> 00:22:34,036 Speaker 1: pressure cooker because your emotion is evolutionally. They're wired to 401 00:22:34,156 --> 00:22:38,996 Speaker 1: tell you something is up, Oh, something has happened. And 402 00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:43,796 Speaker 1: when you're grieving, those emotions are like tornadoes in your 403 00:22:43,796 --> 00:22:48,316 Speaker 1: body saying wake up, this is bad, this is real. 404 00:22:49,036 --> 00:22:51,796 Speaker 1: You can't avoid this. So the energy you do to 405 00:22:51,876 --> 00:22:56,356 Speaker 1: kind of squash them down, they stay powerful and live 406 00:22:56,756 --> 00:23:00,356 Speaker 1: and full of ambition to come and talk to you. 407 00:23:00,916 --> 00:23:03,636 Speaker 1: And so the more you block them, the more they're 408 00:23:03,676 --> 00:23:06,916 Speaker 1: going to try and fight your suppression and speak to 409 00:23:06,956 --> 00:23:10,396 Speaker 1: you so that you hear them when you allow them 410 00:23:10,436 --> 00:23:12,116 Speaker 1: to speak to you. And if you like, if you 411 00:23:12,156 --> 00:23:14,116 Speaker 1: think of them as tornado as an ammunition, if you 412 00:23:14,156 --> 00:23:17,476 Speaker 1: allow the ammunition to come through your system and you 413 00:23:17,556 --> 00:23:21,356 Speaker 1: kind of surrender to it. You face it, you feel it, 414 00:23:21,516 --> 00:23:25,116 Speaker 1: You incrementally in that moment adapt a little bit more. 415 00:23:25,356 --> 00:23:29,436 Speaker 1: You may incrementally in that moment express your sadness or 416 00:23:29,516 --> 00:23:34,636 Speaker 1: fear or anger. And as you express it, something shifts 417 00:23:35,116 --> 00:23:37,636 Speaker 1: that you know a little bit more in a way 418 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:40,116 Speaker 1: that you never wanted to know that this was true, 419 00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 1: that this person has died. And as you shift, it 420 00:23:44,436 --> 00:23:47,796 Speaker 1: changes you. You know, a typical moment could be you're 421 00:23:47,836 --> 00:23:50,556 Speaker 1: going to the supermarket and you always bought yogurts with 422 00:23:50,596 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 1: four pots in and someone significant in your family has died, 423 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:56,716 Speaker 1: so you're not four your three. So in the supermarket 424 00:23:57,956 --> 00:24:01,156 Speaker 1: you kind of you have this burst of feeling and 425 00:24:01,196 --> 00:24:03,476 Speaker 1: you're in a public place and you don't want to 426 00:24:03,516 --> 00:24:08,076 Speaker 1: feel it, and you have choices. So in a public 427 00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:10,476 Speaker 1: place you may just knowledge, I feel really sad, to 428 00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:13,516 Speaker 1: say it to yourself and take a breath. But then 429 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:17,076 Speaker 1: hold on to that, because if you then combined that 430 00:24:17,116 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 1: by going on suppressing it all day, that sad, difficult 431 00:24:21,196 --> 00:24:24,876 Speaker 1: images it were, grows in force inside you so that 432 00:24:24,956 --> 00:24:28,036 Speaker 1: if you can do your shopping, get home, get to 433 00:24:28,076 --> 00:24:31,756 Speaker 1: a safe place, and then allow as you unpack the 434 00:24:31,836 --> 00:24:34,756 Speaker 1: yogurt say, I've never said this before, this is this 435 00:24:34,796 --> 00:24:38,396 Speaker 1: has just come back of nowhere. I've never used yogurt 436 00:24:38,396 --> 00:24:42,476 Speaker 1: and shopping. But anyway, you ally yourself to feel the sadness. 437 00:24:42,516 --> 00:24:45,276 Speaker 1: The next time you buy yogurt, it's not going to 438 00:24:45,396 --> 00:24:48,436 Speaker 1: hit you with the same fourth because you've processed it 439 00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:51,996 Speaker 1: a little bit until in the end, over time, you've 440 00:24:52,036 --> 00:24:55,156 Speaker 1: adjusted and adapted and you kind of know that you're 441 00:24:55,236 --> 00:24:57,836 Speaker 1: three and you're still buying a yogurt for four. I 442 00:24:57,876 --> 00:24:59,996 Speaker 1: mean the irony of this, though, is I feel like 443 00:25:00,076 --> 00:25:02,596 Speaker 1: this is not necessarily a lot of people's instincts. I 444 00:25:02,636 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 1: know it's not my instinct when I go through grief. 445 00:25:04,596 --> 00:25:06,836 Speaker 1: Like if I had that moment in the shop where 446 00:25:06,876 --> 00:25:08,916 Speaker 1: I had the realization of like, wait, I'm not four 447 00:25:09,116 --> 00:25:11,516 Speaker 1: people buying yogurt, I'm only three, my instant reaction be 448 00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:13,276 Speaker 1: like I'm going to check my email, just going to 449 00:25:13,316 --> 00:25:16,036 Speaker 1: get busy, like you know, like stuff that that down, right, 450 00:25:16,436 --> 00:25:18,716 Speaker 1: And so you know, how do we kind of navigate 451 00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 1: this urge to kind of just not be with our 452 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,596 Speaker 1: emotions like they don't feel fun And it's hard to 453 00:25:23,636 --> 00:25:26,316 Speaker 1: realize this paradox that what we need to get through 454 00:25:26,356 --> 00:25:28,396 Speaker 1: the emotions is to actually be I mean, I think 455 00:25:28,636 --> 00:25:31,876 Speaker 1: I think awareness is the first step. And business is 456 00:25:31,916 --> 00:25:35,276 Speaker 1: an anesthetic and it is a natural blocker, and it's 457 00:25:35,316 --> 00:25:38,396 Speaker 1: probably along with drug and alcohol, it's probably the most common. 458 00:25:38,876 --> 00:25:43,996 Speaker 1: Sometimes switching and being busy is useful. No one wants 459 00:25:44,036 --> 00:25:45,956 Speaker 1: to burst in tears in front of lots of strangers 460 00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:50,156 Speaker 1: in the supermarket. So it's kind of recognizing you feel sad, 461 00:25:50,676 --> 00:25:54,156 Speaker 1: but also logging that at some point you need to 462 00:25:54,196 --> 00:25:57,356 Speaker 1: find a way of acknowledging and its expressing it, so 463 00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:01,636 Speaker 1: you know, I often talk to clients about allowing a 464 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:03,916 Speaker 1: space in a day that you have a little kind 465 00:26:03,916 --> 00:26:06,436 Speaker 1: of cut out time. It maybe half an hour where 466 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:09,476 Speaker 1: you go to your memory box where you look at 467 00:26:09,516 --> 00:26:11,596 Speaker 1: the person that's died, where you have a memory of 468 00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:14,516 Speaker 1: doing the shopping and avoiding the pain and how painful 469 00:26:14,556 --> 00:26:16,636 Speaker 1: that is. That can do it for you so that 470 00:26:16,756 --> 00:26:20,356 Speaker 1: then you're not so likely to be hijacked by it 471 00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:23,276 Speaker 1: in other places where you don't want it to happen. 472 00:26:23,836 --> 00:26:27,076 Speaker 1: You know, I have a client who wears her dad's 473 00:26:27,076 --> 00:26:29,716 Speaker 1: watch and she's got a little tiny wrist, but and 474 00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:32,996 Speaker 1: it's a big male watch with a big masculine strap. 475 00:26:33,276 --> 00:26:35,076 Speaker 1: And when she's talking to me and when she's talking 476 00:26:35,116 --> 00:26:39,316 Speaker 1: about him, she strokes the face of the watch and 477 00:26:39,396 --> 00:26:41,716 Speaker 1: you feel like she's sort of stroking his face that 478 00:26:41,756 --> 00:26:45,316 Speaker 1: she can kind of really picture him and kind of 479 00:26:45,356 --> 00:26:48,996 Speaker 1: embody him. And that's a direct kind of connection with 480 00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:51,996 Speaker 1: him that she will use forever. And I think in 481 00:26:52,116 --> 00:26:55,476 Speaker 1: society we want our friends, or our family or ourselves 482 00:26:55,516 --> 00:26:58,796 Speaker 1: to get over it, get past these difficult feelings, and 483 00:26:58,876 --> 00:27:01,556 Speaker 1: it's you know that it's the paradox is by allowing 484 00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:06,636 Speaker 1: them is how you do overtime heal and recover and 485 00:27:06,716 --> 00:27:09,796 Speaker 1: have hope again and love again and live again. But 486 00:27:09,916 --> 00:27:12,876 Speaker 1: it's allowing them to find their way through you that 487 00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:16,916 Speaker 1: changes you into your changed, kind of new version of 488 00:27:16,956 --> 00:27:19,836 Speaker 1: yourself once this person has died. And I love this 489 00:27:19,916 --> 00:27:22,596 Speaker 1: idea of the new version of yourself because I think 490 00:27:22,876 --> 00:27:24,716 Speaker 1: there's this concept that you know, once we go through 491 00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:26,836 Speaker 1: this process, we want to be us before we get 492 00:27:26,876 --> 00:27:29,556 Speaker 1: this bad news. But that's also not how grief works. 493 00:27:29,596 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 1: It kind of comes with this growth too completely, and 494 00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:36,356 Speaker 1: you know, we're never the same. I mean, you're probably 495 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:38,796 Speaker 1: a bit different today than you were yesterday or a 496 00:27:38,796 --> 00:27:42,036 Speaker 1: week ago. That we are. We're wired to evolve and grow, 497 00:27:42,396 --> 00:27:45,876 Speaker 1: and when we befriend it and don't fight it, it 498 00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:49,236 Speaker 1: can change us. And there's this idea of post traumatic 499 00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:52,556 Speaker 1: growth that it never denies the level of the loss 500 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:55,436 Speaker 1: or the depth of the pain and the suffering. But 501 00:27:55,476 --> 00:27:58,236 Speaker 1: what people have find is that when they have found 502 00:27:58,276 --> 00:28:01,556 Speaker 1: that they can survive what they thought they could never survive, 503 00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:05,276 Speaker 1: that they would never overcome, they've allowed themselves to feel 504 00:28:05,276 --> 00:28:10,276 Speaker 1: pain at levels that were beyond their expectation, their perception 505 00:28:10,356 --> 00:28:14,916 Speaker 1: of themselves, their resilience, their robustness, what matters to them 506 00:28:14,916 --> 00:28:19,956 Speaker 1: in life. Feels that they've been expanded and they feel 507 00:28:20,076 --> 00:28:22,956 Speaker 1: changed by it, and they wouldn't want the thing to 508 00:28:22,996 --> 00:28:27,596 Speaker 1: have happened, but they would term that as internal growth. 509 00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:32,156 Speaker 1: Paradox of grief is that we could only move through 510 00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:35,276 Speaker 1: it once we stop fighting it. But I know firsthand 511 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:39,116 Speaker 1: that letting grief in is easier said than done. Thankfully, 512 00:28:39,276 --> 00:28:41,396 Speaker 1: Julia has come up with a set of strategies or 513 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:44,436 Speaker 1: how you can support yourself while experiencing the feelings that 514 00:28:44,516 --> 00:28:47,636 Speaker 1: come up during the grieving process. You'll hear about all 515 00:28:47,676 --> 00:28:50,436 Speaker 1: of these strategies in part two of my conversation with 516 00:28:50,516 --> 00:28:54,516 Speaker 1: Julia Samuel. If you like this show and others from 517 00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:59,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. As a special 518 00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:02,236 Speaker 1: gift to Pushkin Plus subscribers, I'll be sharing a series 519 00:29:02,236 --> 00:29:05,316 Speaker 1: of six guided meditations to help you practice the lessons 520 00:29:05,356 --> 00:29:08,316 Speaker 1: we've learned from our experts. To check them out, look 521 00:29:08,356 --> 00:29:15,356 Speaker 1: for Pushkin plus us on Apple podcast subscriptions. The Happiness 522 00:29:15,436 --> 00:29:18,276 Speaker 1: Lab is co written and produced by Ryan Dilley, Emily 523 00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:22,316 Speaker 1: Anne Vaughan, and Courtney Guerino. Our original music was composed 524 00:29:22,316 --> 00:29:25,916 Speaker 1: by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing, and mastering by 525 00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:30,476 Speaker 1: Evan Viola. Special thanks to Milabelle, Heather Faine, John Schnars, 526 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:35,316 Speaker 1: Carlie Migliori, Christina Sullivan, Brandt Haynes, Maggie Taylor, Eric Sandler, 527 00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:40,436 Speaker 1: Nicole Morano, Royston Preserve, Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Davis. 528 00:29:41,236 --> 00:29:43,836 Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab is brought to you by Pushkin Industries 529 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:47,796 Speaker 1: and me Doctor Laurie Santos. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 530 00:29:47,956 --> 00:29:51,356 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 531 00:29:51,396 --> 00:29:54,596 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts.