WEBVTT - The Psychology of Genre - Lab 090 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:10.000 I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs. 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.600 Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:17.599 science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.560 I had went with a friend to a workout class. 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:28.840 It was like, it was kind of like Orange Theory, 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.720 but it wasn't Orange theory, and everybody in the class 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:35.800 it was basically a white woman over fifty five must 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:41.280 have been of the day then, I mean the day 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.400 that tracks that tracks. Yeah. And so Kendrick and Siss 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:48.880 a song Luther came on, you know and like it's 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.960 hot yeah, and I was like, oh, this is the 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:56.560 right vibe. Yeah, and they were like, oh my goodness. 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:59.000 They were acting like the song was so vulgar. They 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.600 hated it. So one of them was exactly, and so 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:06.080 the instructor was like, okay, let me change the song. 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:08.800 She hits next on her shuffle and the next song 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:12.360 is Messy by Lola Young and that's that song about 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:16.600 that British girls like I'm too messy and I can't 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.560 even say the word. She curses like twenty times in 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.039 the song, and so I was like, you know what, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:23.200 let me look it up there are no curse words 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:28.000 in Luther, but that messy song, I think she curses 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:34.520 twenty times exactly and messy, And I was just like, so, 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:38.200 it's not really about it's not really about the words, right, 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:43.000 it's not, Yeah, because it's not really vulgar. And so 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:47.280 that makes me have a lot of questions about how 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:52.560 our brains are processing these different genres. Mm hmm. That 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.280 sounds like a little psychology. Genre seems to have control 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.280 over our minds, and we definitely need to take a 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:05.640 deeper look into this. Yes, let's jump into the recitation. Okay, 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:07.480 what do we want to know? I want to know 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.320 why we are like this is this biology or psychology? Like, 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.480 what is listening? It's not just happening where you saw it, 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.720 It's happening everywhere. It's happening. When it comes to country music, 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.639 it's happening. When it comes to rap, it's happening people. 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.440 I don't like pop songs, so it's giving. Everybody's got 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:26.840 the same thing going on, whatever it is. Yeah, And 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.240 and what are we trying to gain by boxing everybody 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:33.640 into these different genres? Yeah? I mean what qualifies as 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.040 hip hop or country or R and B or pop? 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.760 You know, like what determines is it the person or 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.920 is it certain beats or certain instruments. And that's not 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.680 even just happening in music, because you remember when the 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.000 Bear one for comedy, like for best Comedy, everybody was 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.000 up and our is not a comedy. Sorry yeah, but 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.760 and they were mad. But I'm like, I mean, maybe 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.120 it's funny to somebody, not me, but yeah, I don't 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.360 think it's funny. But I think people get really tied 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.639 into like the music aspect of this kind of boxing 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:07.120 in that's where I feel like the strongest feelings pop up. 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:09.840 And I also want to know if this is a 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:11.840 new thing or have we always been like this. M 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.000 that's a very good question. I think that's plenty for 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:22.320 us to figure out. Let's jump into the dissection. Let's 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:25.280 start with why our brains group things in categories in 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:30.639 the first place. It's actually evolutionary, that's right, come through biology. 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.240 Human brains have evolved over time to categorize objects, people, 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:39.360 and experiences, and that's just a fundamental cognitive process. Having 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.360 the ability to group similar things together helps us navigate 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.880 complex environments efficiently. Think of it like a mental shortcut 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.320 to get a response. Okay. So like if you think 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:52.000 back to the cavemen, they were able to categorize sounds 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.000 and things that they saw in order to figure out 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.200 if there was danger, and they were able to figure 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.680 that out really quickly. And ever since then, we've been 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:02.720 categor grising everything for the same reasons to create these 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:07.560 shortcuts in our brains. Yes, and that strategy is essential 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.560 for learning and memory, and it helps us easily store 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:15.480 and retrieve information in our brains efficiently. But putting things 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:19.680 in categories isn't always for survival. Like all things in 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.320 this world, some people start making categories to box people 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.200 in yep and box people out. H that's right. In 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:31.720 social context, categorization helps people navigate complex social environments by 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:35.240 grouping people based on shared characteristics such as age, gender, 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.280 or ethnicity. While this can help us with social dynamics 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.440 like you knowing not to cuss in front of my parents, 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:43.960 that's right, I love you at Vicky and Uncle Slug, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.239 I would never that's right, it also has a potential 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.799 lead to stereotyping and prejudice and discrimination in other cases, 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:54.360 and this is what we're exploring in today's lab through 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.360 the music lens with genres today, we have our really 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:59.839 good friend Call, and Call is the host of the 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.360 critically acclaimed podcast Dissect. In Dissect, he takes an album 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:07.760 and he dissects each song line by line. He's done 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:12.680 to Pimp a Butterfly, Blonde, because the Internet, and most recently, 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.880 Mister Morale and the Big Steppers. Back in twenty twenty, 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.200 I had the honor of being dissects first ever co 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.719 host for his season on Beyonce's visual album Lemonade, and 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.640 it was an amazing experience that I will never forget. 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:26.919 So I'm happy to have you here on the show. 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.760 Call Finally, Yes, finally, I Ken, was I ever on 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:34.320 the first iteration? No? Okay, too busy for us? In 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:40.080 burna Boy videos and things like that. So let's start 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:44.159 with the basics. When you think of music genres, what 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:47.800 are the broad categories that come to your mind? And 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:51.840 how do you personally group music that you're listening to 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:54.480 or when you're exploring new music. 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:58.839 Yeah, I think as a musician and as someone that 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.760 is formally studying music, I think I probably think about 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.560 genre maybe a little bit differently than the common listener, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:10.279 just because with music, every genre or every medium that 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:14.280 has genres you can categorize. You can make the categories 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:16.800 based on an x amount of things, right, Like, so 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:22.039 with music, it could be instruments, it could be certain rhythms, 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.760 it could be certain dialects, you know, and so there's 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:29.839 kind of an infinite amount of potential categorizations that could 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.520 happen within music. As much as genre is meant to simplify, 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.279 it also kind of makes things very complex, which is 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.279 kind of the the economy of a genre, right. It's 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.400 like it's at once very limiting but also very useful, 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.760 and so there's this complex relationship with the new music. 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.799 I think one of the interestings of things about genre 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.919 is that each genre kind of has its own history. 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.600 And so when I'm listening to, like, say a new 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.200 hip hop song, I'm wondering, Okay, what is this artist 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.320 contributing to the genre? How are they adhering to the 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.600 tradition so that we think about it as a hip 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.000 hop song, but also how are they breaking from genre 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.360 or adding something new to the genre, Which is the 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:13.680 only way It's just like language, that's the only way 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.000 it's alive, is that if new things are happening within it. 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.000 So as someone is that is kind of looking at 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.240 the history of music a lot and thinking about it 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.080 and where things are going, where things are being. Those 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.560 are the things I'm kind of thinking about as I'm 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:30.640 listening to new music. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.239 You kind of touched on like genres evolving and growing, 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.040 and when we think about the evolution of rock and 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.400 the rise of new genres, why do you think this 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:43.840 need I don't know if that's broadly by the listeners. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:45.320 I don't know if this is imposed from the music 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:47.080 industry itself, But why do you think this need to 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.680 categorize music is so like prominent? 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.040 You know, it's hard to talk about it without getting 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.600 into deeper questions about humanity, to be honest, because it's 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:03.680 such a reflection of humans tendency to simplify. And I mean, 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:07.400 it's just easier to think about anything if you're able 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.640 to limit it the infinite into something that is you 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.800 can you feel like you have a grasp on right. 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.000 And so I think it's a double edged sword in 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.800 that it's very useful to talk about genres. I think 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.880 it makes conversations easier, it makes it easier to study. 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.280 But we do get in trouble when we oversimplify and 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:31.280 when we use the genre or the category to keep 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.000 people confined, right, And I think that's where we get 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.920 into trouble with genre, is that there are certain unspoken 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.040 rules and expectations that come with it. There are certain 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:46.680 identities that are more prominently respected within it, and it 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.679 ends up getting tangled with in this country, the history 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.520 of this country, and a lot of the genres, the 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.880 way history has been told in this country. It just 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.480 gets kind of tangled up in all of that just 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.240 by the name mature of just being what humans do 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.040 right across all mediums and categories. 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.720 Right. I think it's such a great point that you're 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:12.280 making about humanity because I think what a lot of 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:15.320 people forget when they're listening to music is that the 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:19.360 artists are people with very complex backgrounds that they're also 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.280 bringing to the table as soon as they step up 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:24.320 to the mic. Yeah, Cole, you and I did a 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.640 few seasons of your show dissect on Beyonce's Lemonade Visual 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.440 album and also Black is King, and Beyonce is a 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:34.920 great example of being put into a specific genre where 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.760 it would be like more popular pop music R and B. 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:43.240 And now she has gotten a Grammy for a rap, 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:47.280 She's gotten Grammys for country music. This isn't typical. Can 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:49.839 you talk about artists that you've seen and kind of 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.480 your experience that have been able to push the bounds 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:53.240 of their genre. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.160 Yeah, I think. I mean Beyonce is probably the best 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.640 modern example of someone that is actively in the moment 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.800 trying to break down barriers within genre and making a 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.199 real point about the limitations placed on her and her 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.520 being a representative of this larger thing that's happened in 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.480 this country forever, to the point where when she made 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.640 her Grammy speech about the country artists, she talked about 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.040 genre and specifically said how it's been used and kind 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:25.000 of weaponized against her and people like her and to 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:30.200 keep them contained. And when you study Beyonce's background, it's 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.240 not a surprise that she's making a country influenced album, 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.720 yet given her appearance or and her history in music, 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.760 there's just these unspoken rules and limitations placed upon her. 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:48.000 It's also restoring the roots that have been erased in 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:52.400 these genres and the contributions of black musicians to these genres, 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.560 to dance music to country, and then next everyone's predicting rock, 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:59.800 which makes total sense. TT in our Lemonade season, we 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:04.040 talk talked about artists like sister Rosetta Tharp and these women, 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.320 black women, black musicians that made contributions to rock music 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:11.000 that often get overlooked. And so I think she's doing 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:16.440 a beautiful job at contextualizing so much about genre in 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:17.200 the current moment. 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.000 Cole, you have a degree in music theory, so I 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:23.800 know you can take us way back. Are there any 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.880 classical musicians that broke out of their genres? 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:32.400 Classical musicians. It's interesting because literally named the great classical musician. 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:36.240 We think of your Given, you know, your Mozart, your Beethoven, 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.880 All of them are great because they broke rules, because 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.840 they expanded the limitations of a genre. You know, like 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.640 Beethoven really kind of got sh for we think of 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:50.920 like his famous Fifth Symphony, which literally everyone knows it's 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:53.560 like one of the most enduring pieces of music and history, 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.640 if not the most, and that specific symphony was like 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:01.079 got a lot of backlash because it was so avant garde. 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:04.880 It didn't adhere to the formality of classical music at 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:09.360 the time. And so that's always the challenge of someone 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.440 that is defying genre and categorization is that in the 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.040 moment they typically get a lot of pushback and a 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.679 lot of resistance, and yet those are the ones that 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.960 typically make history ironically, right, it is the ones that 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:27.520 do kind of stick to their guns, believe in their vision, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.040 and push the genre forward, keep things evolving. 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.640 One of our favorite people right now is Doci. She 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.480 is really doing some amazing things in hip hop. Her 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.160 sound is so unique and she's bringing something different and 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.240 exciting to the table we've been waiting for that. 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.200 Give me any excuse to talk about DOCI and I'll 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.880 take it, because she's probably the most exciting artist working 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.800 right now. To me, I think her potential more than 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:08.200 any other young up and coming artist, is as high 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.480 as anyone I could remember. I'm putting her in the 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.760 lane of I don't want to put too much pressure 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.080 on her, but I think she has the potential to 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:20.800 reach a Kendrick Beyonce. I feel like the skill levels there, 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.720 the work ethic is definitely there, and the innovation and 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.520 the willingness to push genre is clearly there if you 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.960 studied her career. Where As to the point now where 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:36.160 people there's like two dochies in that she has this 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.160 hip hop album that just one hip hop album of 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.240 the year. But if you look at everything she's released 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.440 before this, there has been some hip hop songs, but 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:45.280 it's been a lot of pop, a lot of R 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:47.640 and B. What it is is a straight up like 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.520 two thousand's R and B song that could have been 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.040 done by Destiny's Child, and people don't actually relate the two. 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.280 And maybe this speaks to our mentality of putting people 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.960 in these boxes to where we we think someone that 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.440 can make denialis is a river can't make what it is. 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:08.280 Yet she's doing both and articulating and expressing them at 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.839 the highest level. She is making the highest level of pop, 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:14.520 the highest level of hip hop, the highest level of 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.280 R and B, and you're already seeing the backlash of 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.720 she's overrated and we can't put her into a box, 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.120 and so it seems like there's some issues with her 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:32.000 becoming so popular more than anyone. I'm following her trajectory 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.520 extremely close because I think she's one of them ones 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.080 that we're going to remember for a long time, and 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.080 she's only getting started and it's very very exciting. Artists 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:46.640 like her don't come around that often. I'm very excited 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.040 to follow her next fifteen twenty years. 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.440 You know, the things that I've been hearing about Dochi 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.880 that have been really making me angry is that people 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.040 are like, oh, she's stealing so and so style. She 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:01.280 sounds just like I'm like they said Nicki Mina and Dojacat. 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.720 I said, first of all, okay, we have to understand 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.760 that we're not aliens. We've all lived on this planet. 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.640 If I started rapping, I would probably sound like the Jigaman, okay, 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:15.240 because that is the music that I was pumping into 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.200 my ears. So I might, you know, have a similar cadence. 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:23.440 But Doji is sliding on these beats like you. That 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.240 is her. We can look back and see the day 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.600 where hip hop was started. Every artist that has come 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.440 after that has been influenced by the hip hop before them. 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:35.560 So I don't know why she's exempt from that and 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.600 why she can't be inspired and influenced like she's influenced 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.400 by so many hip hop artists, not just Nicki Minaj 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.440 and Dojacat or whoever else. I mean. You hear Busta 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:48.720 rhymes in her music, and see, this is just another problem. 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:50.640 It's just like what we talked about at the top. 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.480 You know, people don't want to expand their minds. They're saying, 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.040 this is what it's like to be a female rapper, 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:58.920 and it can only be one person. So if you're 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.200 a female rapper, you rap and you sound good, you 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.720 must be like Nicki Minaj and y'all both can't exist 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.600 in this box at the same time. It's crazy. 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:07.840 Yeah, there's two things there. I think too. It's like 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:13.200 one that female categorization and genre within hip hop is 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.240 a problem, like to the point where it's like, oh, 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:21.840 this female talented female musician or rapper, Oh, she has 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.280 to sound like Nicki Minaj, you know, like because we 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.280 can't think of we can't think outside. And not to 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.680 say there's not she hasn't been influenced. She's been very 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.440 transparent about that influence. But it's like, if you're going 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.760 to call out the Nicki Minaj influence, also call out 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.320 the bust of rhymes influence, also call out the when 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.440 she's doing the breathing and calling back to nineties hip hop, 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.880 you know, that's a that's a direct citation of what 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.400 was you know, I'm forgetting the guys it was a 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.680 Dougie Fresh forgot I'm figuring a guy's name that made 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:56.200 it famous. But like that was a direct nod to 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:58.840 closer to the roots of hip hop. So it's like, 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.120 we have to get out of this is a perfect 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:07.760 example of how categories and subgenres within a genre can 0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:12.719 really limit our experience of an artist, because yeah, it's 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:16.760 hypocritical to call out one when you're not actually seeing 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:19.879 the full breadth of what she's doing, which is doing 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.560 what every great musician has done before, which is assimilate 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:29.560 all the influences into something new. That's exactly how genres 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:33.840 are pushed forward, is that you have someone that understands 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.800 and represents and embodies the history of the genre, is 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:42.680 able to essentially embody let's say fifty years of hip hop, 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:47.800 and then that's her starting point, and so now she 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.119 can add on to it because she so clearly understands 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.399 and embodies the history, the entire breadth of the history. 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.680 The influences are going to be more apparent in your 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:02.639 earlier work. But just mark my words, listen to her, 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.400 listen to her next album or the album after that, 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.720 and I guarantee you and it's going to be so 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.399 innovative and brand new that this conversation will be mute. 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:17.080 Those are strong words called, right you heard it here first. Okay, 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.960 the genre bending is not new, and the genres and 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:24.000 categories the boxes we're using now aren't the same boxes 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.919 from before. They only exist because people way back stepped 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.040 outside of bounds. I'm curious you've kind of mentioned some 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:35.520 standout examples of people who are genre bending, But you 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:37.480 know now that we see more and more of this 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.560 end not just that we see it, but we see 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:44.120 it being commercially rewarded. I think that's a key component 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.560 of it. Do you think we'll see a shift in 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.159 the way artists show up? And if we do, how 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.879 do you think listeners are going to respond? Are we 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.680 sophisticated enough for that? Do you think? I think? 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:57.480 I mean, I think so. I always look to the 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.440 younger generation, you know, not to be like I mean, 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.040 I'm a millennial talking about gen Z, which is just 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:04.960 kind of cringe on its own, but like you look 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.600 at this, you look at the younger generation, and then 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.679 like they're much more homogenized. They I don't feel like 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.880 they categorize themselves in the same way that even our 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.280 generation did, and definitely not the like ones before us. 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.080 And so I do think it's kind of the job 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.520 of the youth to do exactly that is to push boundaries. 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.720 But what about specific genres themselves? What are the differences 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:30.240 in Western music? 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.639 It's all more or less kind of the same, especially 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.280 as someone that studies it. There's so many similarities within 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:41.359 Western music where the common Western music listener doesn't even 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:45.439 know or think about any other type of music than 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:49.480 Western music. We're so contained within the box of Western 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.640 music that we forget there's this entire other world outside 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:56.560 of it, and so we're forgetting like how similar country 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.640 is to rock, and there's a lot more commonalities within 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.480 the West during music genre then there are differences. We're 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.960 talking like minor differences to the point where the thing 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.399 that I always think is interesting about genre and the 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:12.919 way you can you can see the walls of genre 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.280 crumbled before your eyes is when a country artist covers 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.359 a hip hop song, or a or a R and 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.160 B singer covers a Beatles song. 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.600 I saw a countryman on TikTok covering Jagged Edge and 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:31.240 it was fire. We're gonna put that into stories on Instagram. 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:35.400 Go check our Instagram. 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.800 This is just a chord, progression and melody, and they're 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.960 all using the same twelve Western notes that we use 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:46.720 in our Western tonal system, and the genre is just inflection. 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:50.920 It feels like all this genre stuff is really only 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:56.240 to benefit the award system machine, like they just want 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:57.439 to be able to put folks in a box so 0:20:57.440 --> 0:20:59.960 they can give out one award, Because, like you were saying, 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.480 when we're looking at the US, there's all these different 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:04.679 categories even though they're similar. But then as soon as 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:07.119 you get out of United it they're like international pop. 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:12.760 I'm like, it's world music, and I'm like, wow, yeah, there's. 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.320 A lot of world to cover and they're bringing their 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:18.399 own experiences and influences to the table. How can we 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:20.479 just group them all as international? Right? 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:22.919 And especially when we're talking about art, which is self 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:26.920 expression and artists being traditionally a little bit weird, right, 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.760 Like like you just have to you just have to 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:34.199 accept each expression on their own terms, I think. And 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.200 that's again it brings it back to genre in that 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.919 anytime we categorize or put people in a box, it 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:45.200 ends up just really limiting our perception of what things 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:45.520 can be. 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.400 I don't want to get too far ahead before we 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.359 have a little bit more here about the Western tonal system. 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:05.840 Can you tell us more about that. 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:08.520 Yeah, So I mean in Western music, it's like this, 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:11.879 we have a twelve tone system, which is just you know, 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:16.480 the frequency spectrum is infinite, essentially, right, We essentially have 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:21.560 picked out twelve symmetrical I guess you would say tones 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:25.000 that we then use as are essentially our color palette 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.919 when we're creating music. However, you think about Indian music, 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:33.480 they use a lot more tones than Western tones, and 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:36.200 so when you to our Western ears, that's what makes 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.400 Indian music distinct is because they're working outside of our 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.040 tonal system, and so it sounds like there's all these 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:45.040 in between notes or like bent notes, or or it 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.920 could even sound like out of tune to us. So 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.640 when I say Western music is all essentially the same, 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:55.600 what I mean is like we're speaking the same language, 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.320 and I think we sometimes forget that. It's like there 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:02.680 could be different dialects within us one language, but it's 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:05.000 still the same language and we all are fluent in it. 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:08.919 I love this analogy with music and language because it 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.680 really makes you see genre for what it really is. 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:16.119 It's a marker for geography, a time in history, a 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.040 lived experience, a culture, a lifestyle. 0:23:19.200 --> 0:23:21.719 Yes, if you listen to African drumming and they're doing 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:25.159 polyrhythms and way more complex rhythms than we're used to 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:28.159 with our Western years. It can kind of sound like 0:23:28.320 --> 0:23:31.159