Speaker 1: This podcast contains discussions of sexual activity that may be
Speaker 1: disturbing for some listeners.
Speaker 2: Please take care while listening.
Speaker 3: I know a lot of people with Saint Poe. You're
Speaker 3: just upset that you got caught and no act truly
Speaker 3: feel like a disgusting person. But knowing better, I allowed
Speaker 3: myself to get wrapped up in that, and that I
Speaker 3: didn't stop it.
Speaker 2: I should have.
Speaker 1: I'm Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode five Absolution.
Speaker 1: After Jennifer met with the sexual assault victim, she was
Speaker 1: ready to take on the next step finding out more
Speaker 1: about the other relationships Spencer had during their marriage. From
Speaker 1: the very beginning, we talked about you potentially sitting down
Speaker 1: with the other women.
Speaker 4: Why do you want to take that on?
Speaker 2: When I first found out about these other women, I
Speaker 2: was enraged. I mean I was calling them every name
Speaker 2: in the book. A few of these women I know.
Speaker 2: Fast forward three years later, and I've learned so much
Speaker 2: about Spence. You know, the last time I reached out
Speaker 2: to some of these women was days after Spence went
Speaker 2: to jail, and I found out I was not very
Speaker 2: nice at the time. I remember one woman, she has
Speaker 2: two teenage daughters, and I told her, I hope you
Speaker 2: raise your daughters better than this.
Speaker 4: You were angry, very angry, very angry.
Speaker 2: I still didn't realize who he was. He was another
Speaker 2: person with these women. I'm just trying to pull all
Speaker 2: the pieces together, kind of get all of the questions
Speaker 2: I still want answered answered so that I can put
Speaker 2: all of this past me.
Speaker 1: While serving in the Air National Guard, Spencer had a
Speaker 1: long time affair with one of his bandmates. To protect
Speaker 1: her privacy, recalling her Hope it's not her real name.
Speaker 1: Jennifer emailed Hope but didn't hear anything back from her,
Speaker 1: so our producer Carrie reached out and a dialogue began.
Speaker 1: Hope was terrified, but also wanted to be helpful. There
Speaker 1: was so much she wanted to say, but the idea
Speaker 1: of reliving any of this was almost.
Speaker 2: Unbearable for her.
Speaker 1: Jennifer and Hope agreed to talk, but minutes before the
Speaker 1: agreed upon time, Hope texted that she felt sick. It
Speaker 1: was emotionally too much. Call almost didn't happen, but she
Speaker 1: mustered up the courage.
Speaker 2: What did you think when you got my email?
Speaker 3: I mean, I was really surprised since it had been
Speaker 3: so long since we had last been in contact, and
Speaker 3: then I just kind of felt the wave of emotions
Speaker 3: come over me again, you know the same, the guilt,
Speaker 3: the fear. When this first all happened, I just felt
Speaker 3: like I was completely exposed as a terrible person and
Speaker 3: felt like my world was literally crashing down around me.
Speaker 2: What year did you guys start in the Air Force together?
Speaker 3: Twenty fifteen or sixteenth, somewhere around that point.
Speaker 2: So I know this might be uncomfortable for you to
Speaker 2: tell me, but how did he start this?
Speaker 3: I believe it was with a text message. I remember
Speaker 3: it being the fourth of July midnight parade in Gatlinburg,
Speaker 3: and we were on the bus back to base and
Speaker 3: I got this text message. I don't even remember what
Speaker 3: the initial start of the conversation was, but then a
Speaker 3: comment was made about well you're beautiful, something to that extent,
Speaker 3: and that's kind of where it started. Here's an attractive
Speaker 3: guy telling me I'm pretty That came out of nowhere,
Speaker 3: because even at that point I don't even remember really
Speaker 3: ever talking or having a conversation with him prior to that.
Speaker 3: I mean, I knew that he was new in the
Speaker 3: band and where he had come from. That kind of thing.
Speaker 3: But from how I remember, it was like, Okay, well,
Speaker 3: let's hang out and talk. And then the next thing
Speaker 3: I know, it's happening so quickly that I was confused.
Speaker 3: I was like, what is this? I thought we were
Speaker 3: just hanging out talking, and then there we were, and
Speaker 3: I remember feeling like, oh my god, what's happening. But
Speaker 3: then at the same time, I didn't do anything to
Speaker 3: stop it.
Speaker 2: Did a majority of it happen when you guys were
Speaker 2: away on those weekends in Knoxville.
Speaker 3: Yes, there was no consistency to it, but yeah, the
Speaker 3: majority of it was on those weekends.
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, this is you know. I just have to
Speaker 2: take a deep breath every once in a while. How
Speaker 2: were you able to keep it a secret from everyone
Speaker 2: or was it not a secret.
Speaker 3: I don't know of anybody at the time that knew,
Speaker 3: at least from my end of things. I mean I
Speaker 3: confided in my closest girlfriend in the unit afterwards, and
Speaker 3: if she knew, she didn't let on like she knew.
Speaker 2: Did you still date other people or were you guys
Speaker 2: kind of exclusive?
Speaker 3: No, I would, I mean I didn't date a lot
Speaker 3: during that period, but I mean just casual dating, nothing serious.
Speaker 2: For me, And was that because you guys, did you
Speaker 2: have an agreement?
Speaker 3: No, no, no real agreement. There were what I thought
Speaker 3: were joking comments, you know here and there, you know,
Speaker 3: your mind kind of thing, but I didn't take that seriously.
Speaker 3: But there was no direct you know, I don't want
Speaker 3: you to see other people.
Speaker 2: I mean, this went on for several years. How did
Speaker 2: you view this relationship?
Speaker 3: I guess just I felt. I see how I put
Speaker 3: this because it's not very kind towards myself, but just
Speaker 3: like I was being used whenever there was a need.
Speaker 3: But I really thought that he loved me. He had
Speaker 3: me convinced that he did. I mean, he he told
Speaker 3: me so.
Speaker 2: If he was showing you that he loved you, why
Speaker 2: did you still feel used?
Speaker 3: I guess because there wasn't like a definitive thing that
Speaker 3: we were, and two or three months would go by
Speaker 3: and I wouldn't hear anything or you know, nothing like that,
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, here we are again.
Speaker 3: I guess maybe that's that's why I felt that way.
Speaker 2: Do you feel like you loved him?
Speaker 3: I think I loved the way he made me feel
Speaker 3: about myself more than him as a person. But at
Speaker 3: that time in my life, I very much needed to
Speaker 3: feel loved and wanted, you know, I think that's what
Speaker 3: I held on to more than anything.
Speaker 2: When you look at it now, do you feel like
Speaker 2: he manipulated you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I said a lot about that this morning, thinking
Speaker 3: about things and knowing my personality and at that time
Speaker 3: in my life. You know, the deployment group, I guess
Speaker 3: really sticks out in my mind because I wasn't nearly
Speaker 3: as talented as any of the rest of them in
Speaker 3: the group. The entire time I was in the group,
Speaker 3: I was like, I don't have anything to offer, but
Speaker 3: I felt like he made it a point to push
Speaker 3: for me to be in the band. I don't really
Speaker 3: know how I got a proof. I don't know the
Speaker 3: channels that it went through. But even at the same time,
Speaker 3: I knew like they're way more qualified people than me,
Speaker 3: So I guess I felt like maybe that was the
Speaker 3: only reason that I was in the group, and that
Speaker 3: may me feel like I owed him something. Here I'm
Speaker 3: having this awesome opportunity and I knew like I shouldn't
Speaker 3: be going, But just thinking today that may have been
Speaker 3: part of it. And then just you know, the innocent
Speaker 3: comments or walking by and brush up against me kind
Speaker 3: of thing, which you know, reading about grooming specifically, those
Speaker 3: are some of the ways that it's done. And there
Speaker 3: were a lot of instances like that, just randomly out
Speaker 3: of nowhere kind of thing.
Speaker 2: And that's the kind of stuff I'm curious about, you know,
Speaker 2: because I'm just starting to kind of learn about that
Speaker 2: grooming process as well. Is that how it starts, just
Speaker 2: like you know, the walking by and like tap you
Speaker 2: on the shoulder or I don't know, I mean, is
Speaker 2: that how he was?
Speaker 3: Yes? I mean a lot of times there were just
Speaker 3: those I mean not completely blatant obvious things to realize,
Speaker 3: you know, to notice, but probably to everyone else around
Speaker 3: wouldn't be obvious.
Speaker 2: I have to ask, and this is not easy for me,
Speaker 2: but was his marriage ever talked about? Or was I
Speaker 2: ever brought up?
Speaker 3: I don't remember much conversation other than you know, like
Speaker 3: where you were working at the time. I mean, I
Speaker 3: knew that you traveled a lot, and then just bits
Speaker 3: of conversation like when you guys opened the coffee shower,
Speaker 3: but nothing super personal. I remember that there was never
Speaker 3: any indication on his part that what we were doing
Speaker 3: was wrong. I felt it. I knew it. I mentioned it.
Speaker 2: When you mentioned it. What was his response?
Speaker 3: Just the reiteration of how he felt about me. I mean,
Speaker 3: he really never openly talked about the marriage.
Speaker 2: I feel like if I was with someone over the
Speaker 2: span of four years, I would be emotionally invested and
Speaker 2: I would have questions for him about why he's doing this.
Speaker 2: I mean, did he talk about like he was going
Speaker 2: to get divorced?
Speaker 3: Ever, I guess if you're asking if I felt like
Speaker 3: he was ever gonna divorce to be with me, we
Speaker 3: never discussed that. And again, I guess from relationships in
Speaker 3: my past, I didn't feel like I was worth having
Speaker 3: in any kind of long term because most of the
Speaker 3: people in my life in relationships left me, and so
Speaker 3: maybe I've never even considered or accepted that of him.
Speaker 3: Your discussed a future with me, And I know that
Speaker 3: makes me sound terrible, like you're you're a fool for
Speaker 3: being what someone like this.
Speaker 2: No, I think he preyed on you and did make
Speaker 2: you feel so good. That happens to a lot of people.
Speaker 2: We get sucked in. I am in no way attacking you.
Speaker 2: I have empathy for you. This still causing you pain
Speaker 2: in your life.
Speaker 3: Looking back, there was definitely more to it. Now.
Speaker 2: So when you would see me, was it uncomfortable?
Speaker 3: It was? I felt completely guilty and horrible. Yeah, it
Speaker 3: felt weird. I didn't know how to act or how
Speaker 3: to be.
Speaker 2: It was just also shocking, you know, first the student
Speaker 2: and then somebody I knew. Obviously, you know that he
Speaker 2: got convicted.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Do you remember how you found out about his arrest.
Speaker 3: I do. I had pulled up in the parking lot
Speaker 3: at work. It was in the evening, and a friend
Speaker 3: from the band text and said, have you heard about Spencer.
Speaker 3: I was like, no, what's going on? And they went
Speaker 3: on to tell me, you know, well, he's been arrested.
Speaker 3: I was completely shocked. It's like, surely that can't be.
Speaker 3: But I know that there wouldn't be an arrest weren't
Speaker 3: of that nature and that seriousness without there being some
Speaker 3: truth to it. So I guess part of me knew, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 3: I can see.
Speaker 2: This, you could.
Speaker 3: I mean I guess based on some of the experiences
Speaker 3: that I had, part of me could see that that
Speaker 3: was probably true. There were things that were asked of
Speaker 3: me that I was absolutely not comfortable with, and I
Speaker 3: feel like I was forced to play a role that
Speaker 3: was not me. There would be certain looks that just
Speaker 3: made me feel different. In cunning words, I guess.
Speaker 2: You know, obviously he had a side to him that
Speaker 2: I never knew anything about. Did you see a side
Speaker 2: to him that you didn't expect?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a very dominating side to him. Just
Speaker 3: some of the physical quests they were foreign to me.
Speaker 3: Looking back, I remember a couple of times where you know,
Speaker 3: he would kind of put his hands around my throat
Speaker 3: and push down. That kind of caught me off guard. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you had a lot of fantasies that he wanted played
Speaker 3: out different things at different times, and I don't really
Speaker 3: want to be very specific, but there was a time
Speaker 3: where you know, yeah, you know, I want you to
Speaker 3: be this way when I come in. I just didn't
Speaker 3: know anything about a lot of that, so I didn't
Speaker 3: know how to be other than just comply.
Speaker 2: When you think about Spence, what do you think of
Speaker 2: now or how do you see him now?
Speaker 3: I don't know. Part of me is angry at him
Speaker 3: for dragging me through all of this. That's not to
Speaker 3: say that I don't take full responsibility for my actions,
Speaker 3: but years later, I still get very emotional about it.
Speaker 3: And still have so much guilt and shame and next me,
Speaker 3: mad Adam.
Speaker 2: You have every right to be mad at him.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a person in a band that he
Speaker 3: has written letters to asking if I'm okay, Like, don't
Speaker 3: ask about me, Like, just don't leave me out of it.
Speaker 2: You obviously take responsibility for your decisions, but in a way,
Speaker 2: and I hope you're not offended by this word, but
Speaker 2: I almost see you as a victim. Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: I think so, I do.
Speaker 2: Many years later. Why do you think you still feel
Speaker 2: so bad about this?
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a Christian. I was raised to know
Speaker 3: right or wrong, and I just feel like I let
Speaker 3: so many people down. It's just my nature. I'm a
Speaker 3: people pleaser to a fault, and I can't stand the
Speaker 3: thought of somebody being disappointed in me, or to know
Speaker 3: that I've hurt someone deeply. And I know at some
Speaker 3: point in my life I have to forgive myself, but
Speaker 3: it's just really hard.
Speaker 2: Who do you feel like is disappointed in you? Still?
Speaker 3: Obviously the commander of the unit here, I've taken this
Speaker 3: pledge to put honesty, integrity into service before self, and
Speaker 3: I failed at that.
Speaker 2: What is the shame. Where is that coming from? Is
Speaker 2: it just having an affair and getting caught no?
Speaker 3: I you know, I know a lot of people would think, oh,
Speaker 3: you're just upset that you got caught. No A truly
Speaker 3: feel like a disgusting person, But knowing better, I allowed
Speaker 3: myself to get wrapped up in that and that I
Speaker 3: didn't stop it.
Speaker 2: I should have. When you're around the band members, now,
Speaker 2: what is that like for you?
Speaker 3: I don't know who in the band knows who doesn't.
Speaker 3: I assume that everyone does. But thankfully there's some genuinely
Speaker 3: good people that realize people make mistake. I was surprised
Speaker 3: at the people that chose to write and communicate and
Speaker 3: that until you, nobody has reached out to me to
Speaker 3: see how I'm doing with all of it.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm sorry no one's reached out to you.
Speaker 2: I can't believe people in the unit have been writing
Speaker 2: dispense after everything he's done.
Speaker 3: Another thing I've never really fully understood was I got
Speaker 3: the standoff ish vibes. But then I know that there
Speaker 3: were some that were very proactive in defending him, and
Speaker 3: I was outcast. How could these people go and defend
Speaker 3: somebody who did this to a child.
Speaker 2: Do you ever get angry about that? I do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's just still unfair, you know, to have the
Speaker 3: commander of the unit come into the band building dressed
Speaker 3: in a suit, ready to go to headquarters to plead
Speaker 3: a case for somebody to get an honorable discharge, and
Speaker 3: to not even beat me or be able to really
Speaker 3: look at me.
Speaker 2: That's a really shitty thing to do. You're going to
Speaker 2: waltz in there and tell them what a great guy
Speaker 2: this person is that's in prison for sexual assault of
Speaker 2: a student six counts.
Speaker 3: And I think that's the first time I verbalized that
Speaker 3: to anybody. How that has made me feel, especially specifically
Speaker 3: with people in the unit.
Speaker 2: Did you ever think that there might be other women?
Speaker 3: No? I that never crossed my mind, not to say
Speaker 3: that I was something spectacular that he didn't want to
Speaker 3: go anywhere else. But now I'm kind of curious, like,
Speaker 3: how extensive is this or was I the only idiot
Speaker 3: out there that fell for this?
Speaker 2: Besides the high school student, there were many other women.
Speaker 2: I don't know how that makes you feel. I don't
Speaker 2: mean to hurt you.
Speaker 3: No, I don't think it as that. It's just I'm
Speaker 3: not the only one that hurt you or that was
Speaker 3: hurt most likely themselves.
Speaker 2: Have you ever thought about writing him a letter?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: And no.
Speaker 3: I've been given his address, and every time that I
Speaker 3: thought about it, I was like, no, I'm not ready.
Speaker 3: Like I first of all, I don't want to give
Speaker 3: him the satisfaction of me reaching out.
Speaker 2: To him, and then.
Speaker 3: Like, what would I say? Maybe it would feel good
Speaker 3: to write it and never send it, but yeah, I've
Speaker 3: chosen not too. I wish I could forget the whole thing.
Speaker 3: I was a person that I don't recognize. I don't
Speaker 3: want to remember that person.
Speaker 2: This is not the worst thing that has ever happened
Speaker 2: in the world, and if we cannot learn and crow
Speaker 2: from the bumps of life, yes, a sad way to
Speaker 2: look at it. You're getting married in two weeks. I
Speaker 2: am you must be so excited.
Speaker 3: I feel a lot better now that we've gotten through
Speaker 3: all of this. I don't feel as afraid.
Speaker 2: I guess good and.
Speaker 3: My fiance knows the situation. I think that's really amazing
Speaker 3: that he can know me at my lowest points and
Speaker 3: all of the the bad decisions and still find it
Speaker 3: and it's hard to love me. So I feel very
Speaker 3: undeserving of it, but I'm very thankful for it.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't we all deserve that. I mean, I think
Speaker 2: about it too. Am I ever going to meet someone
Speaker 2: that is okay with the fact that I was married
Speaker 2: to this guy who got sent to prison? You know,
Speaker 2: I just I don't want you living with this hanging
Speaker 2: over your head in any way because it's over. You know,
Speaker 2: it was like a different chapter, but you're about to
Speaker 2: embark on a new chapter. Don't carry this in with it, okay.
Speaker 2: I don't look at this situation like what a bitch.
Speaker 2: I can't believe she had an affair. I look at
Speaker 2: it as you were caught up in something that was
Speaker 2: incredibly manipulative without knowing that somebody was being manipulative. Your
Speaker 2: side of the story, I think is as important as mine.
Speaker 2: If anybody's going to learn something from this. You know,
Speaker 2: there's somebody else out there who feels shame about an
Speaker 2: affair they had, you know I had.
Speaker 3: I appreciate how comfortable you may may feel.
Speaker 2: Remember this is not easy for me, but you made
Speaker 2: me feel comfortable as well. And congratulations again.
Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2: Enjoy and be happy. Do you think you can.
Speaker 3: I think I can now I feel more at peace
Speaker 3: about it. I think at this point I can at
Speaker 3: least try to forgive myself and move forward, beat myself
Speaker 3: up over for the rest of my life, for a
Speaker 3: part of my life that is no more well.
Speaker 2: I Hope you know that I don't hold anger or
Speaker 2: bitterness towards you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thankful for that.
Speaker 4: I wanted to regroup with you on something that Hope
Speaker 4: said because I found it really heartbreaking. She mentioned that
Speaker 4: she was being snubbed by people in the Air Force. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: there are people in the vand that are going and
Speaker 4: speaking on Spence's behalf, and that just felt so.
Speaker 3: Hypocritical.
Speaker 2: So after talking with Hope, I feel for her. You know,
Speaker 2: she still holds so much shame about what she did,
Speaker 2: and so me talking to her, it was really nice
Speaker 2: to hear her side of the story because I've read
Speaker 2: a lot of correspondence between Hope and Spence, and that
Speaker 2: relationship is exactly what I thought. It was him manipulating her,
Speaker 2: telling her he loves her, and having her do things
Speaker 2: she's not comfortable with, and you can just see it
Speaker 2: then when I hear that everybody is snubbing her and
Speaker 2: making her to feel like she's the bad guy here
Speaker 2: and they go and they defend Spence. It made me
Speaker 2: so mad. As soon as I got off the phone,
Speaker 2: I called up one of the leaders that was in
Speaker 2: this band. Great guy, you know, this is part of
Speaker 2: our extended family. So I felt comfortable calling him. But
Speaker 2: I confronted him and I was upset and said, I
Speaker 2: heard that you guys all went in and spoke up
Speaker 2: on Spence's behalf and tried to say nice things about him, all.
Speaker 4: In an efor for an honorable discharge.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he was really honest about it, didn't get defensive,
Speaker 2: and he heard me out and then he explained his side.
Speaker 2: The band is like a family, for sure, and so
Speaker 2: they look after one another. I didn't understand why they
Speaker 2: were looking after Spence so much, though, but what he
Speaker 2: told me was everything that they did is for the kids,
Speaker 2: for Spence's family, so that they are not affected any
Speaker 2: more than they already are.
Speaker 4: So like, if he has an honorable discharge, then he'll
Speaker 4: still get a pension or something like that.
Speaker 5: I think it's a financial thing, you know, they get benefits,
Speaker 5: insurance and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, there's nuance to this, right,
Speaker 5: So when he explained it that way, I did understand
Speaker 5: their reasoning, and I want, hope to know that that's
Speaker 5: the reasoning too.
Speaker 4: Maybe that'll help provide some context, and I hope that
Speaker 4: they'll be a little bit nicer to her.
Speaker 2: I hope. So what struck me the.
Speaker 4: Most from your conversation was her willingness to own it
Speaker 4: all and be very self aware of where she was
Speaker 4: in the time of her life when she got involved
Speaker 4: with your ex husband. It's so stripped down and honest,
Speaker 4: and I think a lot of people can relate to
Speaker 4: decisions that you make when you're not your best self,
Speaker 4: or you don't have the best faculties, like you know,
Speaker 4: self worth, and that takes a tremendous amount of courage
Speaker 4: and vulnerability to be honest.
Speaker 2: She was so brave and talking to me and doing this,
Speaker 2: and I'm so glad she did, because yes, she made mistakes,
Speaker 2: and she made some poor choices. There is another side though.
Speaker 2: She was preyed upon, and I think people tend to
Speaker 2: prey on people and manipulate people who are a little
Speaker 2: more vulnerable and do need and crave that attention. Hopefully
Speaker 2: anybody hearing her story will realize, you know, no way.
Speaker 2: I'm worth more. I deserve better and will realize that
Speaker 2: the behavior that some of these people are portraying, it's
Speaker 2: not okay.
Speaker 4: You talked to the high school student, talk to Hope,
Speaker 4: and I know that part of this whole process, You've
Speaker 4: wanted to have a face to face with Spencer. Are
Speaker 4: you ready to get that ball rolling?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I dread seeing Spence again, I really do, because
Speaker 2: I've not seen him since the day he was arrested.
Speaker 2: But this is about finding answers and having more clarity
Speaker 2: and understanding about who he was and why he did this,
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I have to sit down with him
Speaker 2: and talk to him. He promised me he is totally
Speaker 2: willing to talk with me and answer questions. You know,
Speaker 2: there may be some he doesn't want to answer, but
Speaker 2: he agreed, he said, totally willing to do this. So
Speaker 2: what we're going to.
Speaker 4: Try and do is set up like a formal one
Speaker 4: on one at the prison.
Speaker 2: Gosh, can you imagine walking into that prison. That is
Speaker 2: going to be one of the scariest moments of my life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, it's one thing just to talk to him
Speaker 2: from there, but it would be another to walk in
Speaker 2: to this prison. That he's locked up in. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to be done. I just want to
Speaker 2: have one last conversation with him and then I can
Speaker 2: just put this to bed. It's behind me. I don't
Speaker 2: ever need to correspond with him again.
Speaker 1: And still to come this season, Jennifer confronts Spencer.
Speaker 2: The last time we talked, you felt as if you
Speaker 2: were fine and cured, and it has gone away.
Speaker 3: Hey, I still feel that way.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership.
Speaker 2: With iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
Speaker 1: by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart
Speaker 1: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: voice actors Todd Gans and Rocky Aalt. Sound editing and
Speaker 1: mixing done by Matt Tavecio. Betrayal's theme was composed by
Speaker 1: Oliver Bains Music Library provided by my Music. And for
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