Speaker 1: This podcast contains discussions of sexual activity that may be
Speaker 1: disturbing for some listeners. Please take care while listening. I
Speaker 1: know a lot of people would sink, oh, you're just
Speaker 1: upset that you got caught. No, as truly feel like
Speaker 1: a disgusting person that, knowing better, I allowed myself to
Speaker 1: get wrapped up in that, and that I didn't stop it.
Speaker 1: I should have. I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a
Speaker 1: Betrayal Episode five absolution. After Jennifer met with the sexual
Speaker 1: assault victim, she was ready to take on the next
Speaker 1: step finding out more about the other relationships Spencer had
Speaker 1: during their marriage. From the very beginning, we talked about
Speaker 1: you potentially sitting down with the other women. Why do
Speaker 1: you want to take that on? When I first found
Speaker 1: out about these other women, I was enraged. I mean
Speaker 1: I was calling them every name in the book. A
Speaker 1: few of these women I know. Fast forward three years later,
Speaker 1: and I've learned so much about Spence. You know, the
Speaker 1: last time I reached out to some of these women
Speaker 1: was days after Spence went to jail, and I found
Speaker 1: out I was not very nice at the time. I
Speaker 1: remember one woman, she has two teenage daughters, and I
Speaker 1: told her, I hope you raise your daughters better than this.
Speaker 1: You're angry, very angry, very angry. I still didn't realize
Speaker 1: who he was. He was another person with these women.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to pull all the pieces together, kind
Speaker 1: of get all of the questions I still want answered
Speaker 1: answered so that I can put all of this past me.
Speaker 1: While serving in the Air National Guard, Spencer had a
Speaker 1: long time affair with one of his bandmates. To protect
Speaker 1: her privacy, recalling her Hope it's not her real name.
Speaker 1: Jennifer emailed Hope but didn't hear anything back from her,
Speaker 1: so our producer Carrie reached out and a dialogue began.
Speaker 1: Hope was terrified, but also wanted to be helpful. There
Speaker 1: was so much she wanted to say, but the idea
Speaker 1: of reliving any of this was almost unbearable for her.
Speaker 1: Jennifer and Hope agreed to talk, but minutes before the
Speaker 1: agreed upon time, Hope texta that she felt sick. It
Speaker 1: was emotionally too much. Cole almost didn't happen, but she
Speaker 1: mustered up the courage. What did you think when you
Speaker 1: got my email? I mean, I was really surprised since
Speaker 1: it had been so long since we had last been
Speaker 1: in contact, and then I just kind of felt the
Speaker 1: wave of emotions come over me again, you know the same,
Speaker 1: the guilt, the fear. When this first all happened, I
Speaker 1: just felt like I was completely exposed as a terrible person,
Speaker 1: and I felt like my world was literally crashing down
Speaker 1: around me. What year did you guys start in the
Speaker 1: Air Force together? Twenty fifteen or sixteenth, somewhere around that point.
Speaker 1: So I know this might be uncomfortable for you to
Speaker 1: tell me, But how did he start this? I believe
Speaker 1: it was with a text message. I remember it being
Speaker 1: the fourth of July midnight parade in Gatlinburg, and we
Speaker 1: were on the bus back to base and I got
Speaker 1: this text message. I don't even remember what the initial
Speaker 1: start of the conversation was, but then a comment was
Speaker 1: made about well you're beautiful, something to that extent, and
Speaker 1: that's kind of where it started. Here's an attractive guy
Speaker 1: telling me I'm pretty That came out of nowhere, because
Speaker 1: even at that point, I don't even remember really ever
Speaker 1: talking or having a conversation with him prior to that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I knew that he was new in the
Speaker 1: band and where he had come from. That kind of thing.
Speaker 1: But from how I remember, it was like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's hang out and talk. And then the next thing
Speaker 1: I know, it's happening so quickly that I was confused.
Speaker 1: I was like, what is this? I thought we were
Speaker 1: just hanging out talking, and then there we were. You know,
Speaker 1: I remember feeling like, oh my god, what's happening? But
Speaker 1: then at the same time, I didn't do anything to
Speaker 1: stop it. Did a majority of it happen when you
Speaker 1: guys were away on those weekends in Knoxville. Yes, there
Speaker 1: was no consistency to it, but yeah, the majority of
Speaker 1: it was on those weekends. Sorry, this is you know,
Speaker 1: I just have to take a deep breath every once
Speaker 1: in a while. How were you able to keep it
Speaker 1: a secret from everyone or was it not a secret?
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody at the time that knew,
Speaker 1: at least from my end of things. I mean I
Speaker 1: confided in my closest girlfriend in the unit afterwards, and
Speaker 1: if she knew, she didn't let on like she knew.
Speaker 1: Did you still date other people or were you guys
Speaker 1: kind of exclusive? No, I would, I mean I didn't
Speaker 1: date a lot during that period, but I mean just
Speaker 1: casual dating. Nothing serious for me? And was that because
Speaker 1: you guys, did you have an agreement? No? No, no
Speaker 1: real agreement. Um, there were what I thought were joking comments,
Speaker 1: you know here and there, you know your mind kind
Speaker 1: of thing, but I didn't take that seriously. But there
Speaker 1: was no direct you know, I don't want you to
Speaker 1: see other people. I mean, this went on for several years.
Speaker 1: How did you view this relationship? I guess I felt.
Speaker 1: I see how how I put this, because it's not
Speaker 1: very kind forwards myself, But um, just like I was
Speaker 1: being used whenever there was a need. But I really
Speaker 1: thought that he loved me. He had me convinced that
Speaker 1: he did. I mean, he he told me so. If
Speaker 1: he was showing you that he loved you, why did
Speaker 1: you still feel used? I guess because there wasn't like
Speaker 1: a definitive thing that we were and two or three
Speaker 1: months and would go by and I wouldn't hear anything
Speaker 1: or you know, nothing like that, and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, here we are again. I guess maybe that's
Speaker 1: that's why I felt that way. Do you feel like
Speaker 1: you loved him? I think I loved the way he
Speaker 1: made me feel about myself more than him as a person.
Speaker 1: But at that time of my life, I very much
Speaker 1: needed to feel loved and wanted, you know, I think
Speaker 1: that's what I held onto more than anything. When you
Speaker 1: look at it now, do you feel like he manipulated you? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I thought a lot about that this morning, thinking about
Speaker 1: things and knowing my personality and at that time in
Speaker 1: my life. You know, the deployment group, I guess really
Speaker 1: sticks out in my mind because I wasn't nearly as
Speaker 1: talented as any of the rest of them in the group.
Speaker 1: The entire time I was in the group, I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't have anything to offer, but I felt like
Speaker 1: he made it a point to push for me to
Speaker 1: be in the band. I don't really know how I
Speaker 1: got approved. I don't know the channels that it went through,
Speaker 1: but even at at the same time, I knew like
Speaker 1: they're way more qualified people than me, So I guess
Speaker 1: I felt like maybe that was the only reason that
Speaker 1: I was in the group, and that may me feel
Speaker 1: like I owed him something. Here I'm having this awesome
Speaker 1: opportunity and I knew like I shouldn't be going, But
Speaker 1: just thinking today that may have been part of it.
Speaker 1: And then just you know, the innocent comments or walking
Speaker 1: by and brush up against me kind of thing, which
Speaker 1: you know, reading about grooming specifically, those are some of
Speaker 1: the ways that it's done. And there were a lot
Speaker 1: of instances like that, just randomly out of nowhere kind
Speaker 1: of thing. And that's the kind of stuff I'm curious about,
Speaker 1: you know, because I'm just starting to kind of learn
Speaker 1: about that grooming process as well. Is that how it starts,
Speaker 1: just like you know, the walking by and like tap
Speaker 1: you on the shoulder or I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 1: is that how he was? Yes, I mean a lot
Speaker 1: of times there were just those I mean not completely
Speaker 1: blatant obvious things to realize, you know, to notice, but
Speaker 1: probably to everyone else around wouldn't be obvious. I have
Speaker 1: to ask, and this is not easy for me, but
Speaker 1: was his marriage ever talked about? Or was I ever
Speaker 1: brought up? I don't remember much conversation other than you know,
Speaker 1: like where you were working at the time. I mean,
Speaker 1: I knew that you traveled a lot, and then just
Speaker 1: bits of conversation like when you guys opened the coffee shop,
Speaker 1: but nothing super personal. I remember that there was never
Speaker 1: any indication on his part that what we were doing
Speaker 1: was wrong. I felt it. I knew it. I mentioned
Speaker 1: it when you mentioned it. What was his response? Just
Speaker 1: the reiteration of how he felt about me. I mean,
Speaker 1: he really never openly talked about the marriage. I feel
Speaker 1: like if I was with someone over the span of
Speaker 1: four years, I would be emotionally invested and I would
Speaker 1: have questions for him about why he's doing this. I mean,
Speaker 1: did he talk about like he was going to get divorced? Ever,
Speaker 1: I guess if you're asking if I felt like he
Speaker 1: was ever going to divorce to be with me, we
Speaker 1: never discussed that. And again, I guess from relationships in
Speaker 1: my past, I didn't feel like I was worth having
Speaker 1: in any kind of long term because most of the
Speaker 1: people in my life and relationships left me, And so
Speaker 1: maybe I've never even considered or expected that of him.
Speaker 1: I mean of your disgust a future with me, and
Speaker 1: I know that makes me sound terrible, like you're a
Speaker 1: fool for being with someone like this. No, I think
Speaker 1: he preyed on you and did make you feel so good.
Speaker 1: That happens to a lot of people. We get sucked in.
Speaker 1: I am in no way attacking you. I have empathy
Speaker 1: for you. This still causing you pain in your life,
Speaker 1: looking back, there is definitely more to it. So when
Speaker 1: you would see me, was it uncomfortable? It was? I
Speaker 1: felt completely guilty and horrible. Yeah, it felt weird. I
Speaker 1: didn't know how to act or how to be. It
Speaker 1: was just also shocking, you know, first the student and
Speaker 1: then somebody I knew. Obviously you know that he got convicted. Right.
Speaker 1: Do you remember how you found out about his arrest?
Speaker 1: I do. I had pulled up in the parking lot
Speaker 1: at work. It was in the evening, and a friend
Speaker 1: from the band text and said, have you heard about Sensor?
Speaker 1: I was like, no, what's going on? And they went
Speaker 1: on to tell me, you know, when he's been arrested.
Speaker 1: I was completely shocked. It's like, surely that can't be.
Speaker 1: But I know that there wouldn't be an arrest weren't
Speaker 1: of that nature and that seriousness without there being some
Speaker 1: truth to it. So I guess part of me knew, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can see this, you could. I mean I guess
Speaker 1: based on some of the experiences that I had, and
Speaker 1: part of me could see that that was probably true.
Speaker 1: There were things that were asked of me that I
Speaker 1: was absolutely not comfortable with, and I feel like I
Speaker 1: was forced to play a role that was not me.
Speaker 1: There would be certain looks that just made me feel different.
Speaker 1: In cunning words, I guess you know, obviously he had
Speaker 1: a side to him that I never knew anything about.
Speaker 1: Did you see a side to him that you didn't expect? Yeah,
Speaker 1: there was a very dominating side to him. Just some
Speaker 1: of the physical quests they were foreign to me. Looking back,
Speaker 1: I remember a couple of times where you know, he
Speaker 1: would kind of put his hands around my throat and
Speaker 1: pushed down. That kind of caught me off guard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he you had a lot of fantasies that he wanted
Speaker 1: played out different things at different times, And I don't
Speaker 1: really want to be very specific, but there was a
Speaker 1: time where you know, yes, you know, I want you
Speaker 1: to be this way when I come in. I just
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about a lot of that, so I
Speaker 1: didn't know how to be other than just comply. When
Speaker 1: you think about Spence, what do you think of now
Speaker 1: or how do you see him now? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Part of me is angry at him for dragging me
Speaker 1: through all of this. That's not to say that I
Speaker 1: don't take for responsibility for my actions, but years later,
Speaker 1: I still get very emotional about it and still have
Speaker 1: so much guilt and shame and next thing, mad at him.
Speaker 1: You have every right to be mad at him. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a person in the band that he has written
Speaker 1: letters to asking if I'm okay, Like dot, don't ask
Speaker 1: about me. I'm like, just don't leave me out of it.
Speaker 1: You obviously take responsibility for your decisions, but in a way,
Speaker 1: and I hope you're not offended by this word, but
Speaker 1: I almost see you as a victim. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: I think so, I do, many years later. Why do
Speaker 1: you think you still feel so bad about this? I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm a Christian. I was raised to know right for wrong,
Speaker 1: and I just feel like I let so many people down.
Speaker 1: It's just my nature. I'm a people pleaser to a fault,
Speaker 1: and I can't stand the thought of somebody being disappointed
Speaker 1: in me, or to know that I've hurt someone deeply.
Speaker 1: And I know at some point in my life I
Speaker 1: have to forgive myself, but it's just really hard. Who
Speaker 1: do you feel like is disappointed in you? Still obviously
Speaker 1: the commander of the unit here, I've taken this pledge
Speaker 1: to put honesty, integrity into service before self and I
Speaker 1: failed at that. What is the shame? Where is that
Speaker 1: coming from? Is it just having an affair and getting caught? No?
Speaker 1: You know, I know a lot of people would think, oh,
Speaker 1: you're just upset that you got caught. No. I truly
Speaker 1: feel like a disgusting person that, knowing better, I allowed
Speaker 1: myself to get wrapped up in that, and that I
Speaker 1: didn't stop it. I should have. When you're around the
Speaker 1: band members, now, what is that like for you? I
Speaker 1: don't know who in the band knows who doesn't. I
Speaker 1: assume that everyone does. But thankfully there's some genuinely good
Speaker 1: people that realize people make mistakes. I was surprised at
Speaker 1: the people that chose to write and communicate and that
Speaker 1: until you, nobody has reached out to me to see
Speaker 1: how I'm doing with all of it. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry no one's reached out to you. I can't believe
Speaker 1: people in the unit have been writing dispense after everything
Speaker 1: he's done. Another thing I've never really fully understood was
Speaker 1: I got the standoffish figs. But then I know that
Speaker 1: there were some that were very proactive in defending him,
Speaker 1: and I was outcast. How could these people go and
Speaker 1: defend somebody who did this to a child. Do you
Speaker 1: ever get angry about that? I knew, Yeah, it just
Speaker 1: stills unfair, you know, to how the commander of the
Speaker 1: unit come into the band building dressed in a suit,
Speaker 1: ready to go to headquarters to plead a case for
Speaker 1: somebody to get an honorable discharge, and to not even
Speaker 1: beat to me or be able to really look at me.
Speaker 1: That's a really shitty thing to do. You're gonna waltz
Speaker 1: in there and tell them what a great guy this
Speaker 1: person is that's in prison for sexual assaults of a
Speaker 1: student six counts, And I think that's the first time
Speaker 1: I verbalized that to anybody. How that has made me feel,
Speaker 1: especially specifically with people in the unit. Did you ever
Speaker 1: think that there might be other women? No? I never.
Speaker 1: That never crossed my mind, not to say that I
Speaker 1: was something spectacular that he didn't want to go anywhere else.
Speaker 1: But now I'm kind of curious, like, how extensive is
Speaker 1: this or was I the only idiot out there that
Speaker 1: fell for this? Besides the high school student? There were
Speaker 1: many other women. Okay, I don't know how that makes
Speaker 1: you feel. I don't mean to hurt you. No, I
Speaker 1: don't think it is that. It's just I'm not the
Speaker 1: only one that hurt you or that was hurt most
Speaker 1: likely themselves. Have you ever thought about writing him a letter?
Speaker 1: Yes and no. I've been given his address, and every
Speaker 1: time and I thought about it, I was like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not ready. Like I first of all, I don't
Speaker 1: want to give him the satisfaction of me reaching out
Speaker 1: to him, And then what would I say. Maybe it
Speaker 1: would feel good to write it and never send it,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I've chosen not too. I wish I could
Speaker 1: forget the whole thing. I was a person that I
Speaker 1: don't recognize, and I don't I don't want to remember
Speaker 1: that person. This is not the worst thing that has
Speaker 1: ever happened in the world. And if we cannot learn
Speaker 1: and crow from the bumps of life, yes, a good
Speaker 1: way to look at it. You're getting married in two weeks.
Speaker 1: I am you must be so excited. I feel a
Speaker 1: lot better now that we've gotten through all of this.
Speaker 1: I don't feel as afraid. I guess good and ma
Speaker 1: fiance knows this situation. I think that's truly amazing that
Speaker 1: he can know me at my lowest points and all
Speaker 1: of the bad decisions and still find it, and it's
Speaker 1: hard to love me. So I feel very undeserving of it,
Speaker 1: but I'm very thankful for it. You shouldn't we all
Speaker 1: deserve that. I mean, I think about it too. Am
Speaker 1: I ever going to meet someone that is okay with
Speaker 1: the fact that I was married to this guy who
Speaker 1: got sent to prison? You know? I just I don't
Speaker 1: want you living with this hanging over your head in
Speaker 1: any way because it's over, you know, right, it was
Speaker 1: like a different chapter, but you're about to embark on
Speaker 1: a new chapter. Don't carry this in with it, okay.
Speaker 1: I don't look at this situation like what a bitch.
Speaker 1: I can't believe she had an affair. I look at
Speaker 1: it as you were caught up in something that was
Speaker 1: incredibly manipulative without knowing that somebody was being manipulative. Your
Speaker 1: side of the story, I think is as important as mine.
Speaker 1: If anybody's going to learn something from this, you know,
Speaker 1: there's somebody else out there who feels shame about an
Speaker 1: affair they had, you know. I mean, I appreciate how
Speaker 1: comfortable you've made me feel. Remember this is not easy
Speaker 1: for me, but you made me feel comfortable as well.
Speaker 1: And congratulations again, thank you. I appreciate that, enjoy and
Speaker 1: be happy. Do you think you can? I think I
Speaker 1: can now I feel more that piece about it. I
Speaker 1: think at this point I can at least try to
Speaker 1: forgive myself and move forward, beat myself up over it
Speaker 1: for the rest of my life, for a part of
Speaker 1: my life that is no more. Well, I Hope you
Speaker 1: know that I don't hold anger or bitterness towards you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thankful for that. I wanted to regroup with you on
Speaker 1: something that Hope said because I found it really heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: She mentioned that she was being snubbed by people in
Speaker 1: the air or stand. Meanwhile, there are people in the
Speaker 1: van that are going and speaking on Spence's behalf, and
Speaker 1: that just felt so hypocritical. So after talking with Hope,
Speaker 1: I feel for her. You know, she still holds so
Speaker 1: much shame about what she did, and so me talking
Speaker 1: to her, it was really nice to hear her side
Speaker 1: of the story because I've read a lot of correspondence
Speaker 1: between Hope and Spence, and that relationship is exactly what
Speaker 1: I thought. It was him manipulating her, telling her he
Speaker 1: loves her, and having her do things she's not comfortable with,
Speaker 1: and you can just see it. Then when I hear
Speaker 1: that everybody is snubbing her and making her to feel
Speaker 1: like she's the bad guy here, and they go and
Speaker 1: they defend Spence. It made me so mad. As soon
Speaker 1: as I got off the phone, I called up one
Speaker 1: of the leaders that was in this band. Great guy,
Speaker 1: you know, this is part of our extended family. So
Speaker 1: I felt comfortable calling him. But I confronted him and
Speaker 1: I was upset and said, I heard that you guys
Speaker 1: all went in and spoke up on Spence's behalf and
Speaker 1: tried to say nice things about him, all in an
Speaker 1: effort for an honorable discharge. Yeah. Yeah, he was really
Speaker 1: honest about it, didn't get defensive, and he heard me
Speaker 1: out and then he explained his side. The band is
Speaker 1: like a family, for sure, and so they look after
Speaker 1: one another. I didn't understand why they were looking after
Speaker 1: Spence so much, though, but what he told me, everything
Speaker 1: that they did is for the kids, for Spence's family,
Speaker 1: so that they are not affected any more than they
Speaker 1: already are. So like, if he has an honorable discharge,
Speaker 1: then he'll still get a pension or something like that.
Speaker 1: I think it's a financial thing, you know. They get benefits,
Speaker 1: insurance and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, there's nuance to this, right.
Speaker 1: So when he explained it that way, I did understand
Speaker 1: their reasoning, and I want, hope to know that that's
Speaker 1: the reasoning too. Maybe that'll help provide some context, and
Speaker 1: I hope that they'll be a little bit nicer to her.
Speaker 1: I hope. So what struck me the most from your
Speaker 1: conversation was her willingness to own it all and be
Speaker 1: very self aware of where she was in the time
Speaker 1: of her life when she got involved with your ex husband.
Speaker 1: It's so stripped down and honest, and I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people can relate to decisions that you make
Speaker 1: when you're not your best self or you don't have
Speaker 1: the best faculties, like you know, self worth, and that
Speaker 1: takes a tremendous amount of courage and vulnerability to be honest.
Speaker 1: She was so brave and talking to me and doing this,
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad she did, because yes, she made
Speaker 1: mistakes and she made some poor choices. There is another
Speaker 1: side though. She was preyed upon, and I think people
Speaker 1: tend to prey on people and manipulate people who are
Speaker 1: a little more vulnerable and do need and crave that attention.
Speaker 1: Hopefully anybody hearing her story will realize, you know, no way,
Speaker 1: I'm working more, I deserve better, and will realize that
Speaker 1: the behavior that some of these people are portraying, it's
Speaker 1: not okay. You talked to the high school student, talk
Speaker 1: to Hope, and I know that part of this whole process,
Speaker 1: You've wanted to have a face to face with Spencer.
Speaker 1: Are you ready to get that ball rolling? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: dread seeing Spence again, I really do, because I've not
Speaker 1: seen him since the day he was arrested. But this
Speaker 1: is about finding answers and having more clarity and understanding
Speaker 1: about who he was and why he did this, and
Speaker 1: so yeah, I have to sit down with him and
Speaker 1: talk to him. He promised me he is totally willing
Speaker 1: to talk with me and answer questions. You know, there
Speaker 1: may be some he doesn't want to answer, but he agreed,
Speaker 1: he said, totally willing to do this. So what we're
Speaker 1: going to try and do is set up like a
Speaker 1: formal one on one in the prison. Gosh, can you
Speaker 1: imagine walking into that prison. That is going to be
Speaker 1: one of the scariest moments of my life. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's one thing just to talk to him from there,
Speaker 1: but it would be another to walk in to this
Speaker 1: prison that he's locked up in. Oh my gosh. I
Speaker 1: can't wait to be done. I just want to have
Speaker 1: one last conversation with him and then I can just
Speaker 1: put this to bed. It's behind me. I don't ever
Speaker 1: need to correspond with him again. And still to come
Speaker 1: this season, Jennifer confront Spencer. The last time we talked,
Speaker 1: you felt as if you were fine and cured, and
Speaker 1: it has gone away. Hey, I still feel that way.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. That's
Speaker 1: Betrayal po d at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a
Speaker 1: production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,
Speaker 1: in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced
Speaker 1: by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by
Speaker 1: me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carry Hartman, also
Speaker 1: produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry
Speaker 1: and Jessica Krinchek. Special thanks to voice actors Todd Gans
Speaker 1: and Rocky y'all. Sound editing and mixing done by Matt Devechio.
Speaker 1: Betrayal's theme was composed by Oliver Bain's music library provided
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