1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: This podcast contains discussions of sexual activity that may be 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: disturbing for some listeners. 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 2: Please take care while listening. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 3: I know a lot of people with Saint Poe. You're 5 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 3: just upset that you got caught and no act truly 6 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 3: feel like a disgusting person. But knowing better, I allowed 7 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 3: myself to get wrapped up in that, and that I 8 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 3: didn't stop it. 9 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: I should have. 10 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: I'm Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Episode five Absolution. 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: After Jennifer met with the sexual assault victim, she was 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: ready to take on the next step finding out more 13 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: about the other relationships Spencer had during their marriage. From 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: the very beginning, we talked about you potentially sitting down 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: with the other women. 16 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 4: Why do you want to take that on? 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 2: When I first found out about these other women, I 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 2: was enraged. I mean I was calling them every name 19 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 2: in the book. A few of these women I know. 20 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: Fast forward three years later, and I've learned so much 21 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: about Spence. You know, the last time I reached out 22 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: to some of these women was days after Spence went 23 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: to jail, and I found out I was not very 24 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 2: nice at the time. I remember one woman, she has 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: two teenage daughters, and I told her, I hope you 26 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 2: raise your daughters better than this. 27 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 4: You were angry, very angry, very angry. 28 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 2: I still didn't realize who he was. He was another 29 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: person with these women. I'm just trying to pull all 30 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: the pieces together, kind of get all of the questions 31 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 2: I still want answered answered so that I can put 32 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 2: all of this past me. 33 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: While serving in the Air National Guard, Spencer had a 34 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: long time affair with one of his bandmates. To protect 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 1: her privacy, recalling her Hope it's not her real name. 36 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: Jennifer emailed Hope but didn't hear anything back from her, 37 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: so our producer Carrie reached out and a dialogue began. 38 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: Hope was terrified, but also wanted to be helpful. There 39 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: was so much she wanted to say, but the idea 40 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: of reliving any of this was almost. 41 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: Unbearable for her. 42 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: Jennifer and Hope agreed to talk, but minutes before the 43 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: agreed upon time, Hope texted that she felt sick. It 44 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: was emotionally too much. Call almost didn't happen, but she 45 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: mustered up the courage. 46 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: What did you think when you got my email? 47 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 3: I mean, I was really surprised since it had been 48 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 3: so long since we had last been in contact, and 49 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 3: then I just kind of felt the wave of emotions 50 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 3: come over me again, you know the same, the guilt, 51 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 3: the fear. When this first all happened, I just felt 52 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 3: like I was completely exposed as a terrible person and 53 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 3: felt like my world was literally crashing down around me. 54 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: What year did you guys start in the Air Force together? 55 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 3: Twenty fifteen or sixteenth, somewhere around that point. 56 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: So I know this might be uncomfortable for you to 57 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: tell me, but how did he start this? 58 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 3: I believe it was with a text message. I remember 59 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: it being the fourth of July midnight parade in Gatlinburg, 60 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 3: and we were on the bus back to base and 61 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 3: I got this text message. I don't even remember what 62 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 3: the initial start of the conversation was, but then a 63 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: comment was made about well you're beautiful, something to that extent, 64 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 3: and that's kind of where it started. Here's an attractive 65 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 3: guy telling me I'm pretty That came out of nowhere, 66 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 3: because even at that point I don't even remember really 67 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 3: ever talking or having a conversation with him prior to that. 68 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: I mean, I knew that he was new in the 69 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 3: band and where he had come from. That kind of thing. 70 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 3: But from how I remember, it was like, Okay, well, 71 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 3: let's hang out and talk. And then the next thing 72 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: I know, it's happening so quickly that I was confused. 73 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 3: I was like, what is this? I thought we were 74 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 3: just hanging out talking, and then there we were, and 75 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 3: I remember feeling like, oh my god, what's happening. But 76 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: then at the same time, I didn't do anything to 77 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 3: stop it. 78 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: Did a majority of it happen when you guys were 79 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 2: away on those weekends in Knoxville. 80 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: Yes, there was no consistency to it, but yeah, the 81 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 3: majority of it was on those weekends. 82 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: Oh sorry, this is you know. I just have to 83 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 2: take a deep breath every once in a while. How 84 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: were you able to keep it a secret from everyone 85 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: or was it not a secret. 86 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: I don't know of anybody at the time that knew, 87 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 3: at least from my end of things. I mean I 88 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 3: confided in my closest girlfriend in the unit afterwards, and 89 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: if she knew, she didn't let on like she knew. 90 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 2: Did you still date other people or were you guys 91 00:05:58,120 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: kind of exclusive? 92 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 3: No, I would, I mean I didn't date a lot 93 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 3: during that period, but I mean just casual dating, nothing serious. 94 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 2: For me, And was that because you guys, did you 95 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: have an agreement? 96 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 3: No, no, no real agreement. There were what I thought 97 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 3: were joking comments, you know here and there, you know, 98 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: your mind kind of thing, but I didn't take that seriously. 99 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 3: But there was no direct you know, I don't want 100 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 3: you to see other people. 101 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 2: I mean, this went on for several years. How did 102 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 2: you view this relationship? 103 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: I guess just I felt. I see how I put 104 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 3: this because it's not very kind towards myself, but just 105 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 3: like I was being used whenever there was a need. 106 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 3: But I really thought that he loved me. He had 107 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 3: me convinced that he did. I mean, he he told 108 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 3: me so. 109 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: If he was showing you that he loved you, why 110 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: did you still feel used? 111 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 3: I guess because there wasn't like a definitive thing that 112 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 3: we were, and two or three months would go by 113 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 3: and I wouldn't hear anything or you know, nothing like that, 114 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, here we are again. 115 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 3: I guess maybe that's that's why I felt that way. 116 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: Do you feel like you loved him? 117 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 3: I think I loved the way he made me feel 118 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 3: about myself more than him as a person. But at 119 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 3: that time in my life, I very much needed to 120 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: feel loved and wanted, you know, I think that's what 121 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 3: I held on to more than anything. 122 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: When you look at it now, do you feel like 123 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: he manipulated you? 124 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I said a lot about that this morning, thinking 125 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 3: about things and knowing my personality and at that time 126 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: in my life. You know, the deployment group, I guess 127 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: really sticks out in my mind because I wasn't nearly 128 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 3: as talented as any of the rest of them in 129 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 3: the group. The entire time I was in the group, 130 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 3: I was like, I don't have anything to offer, but 131 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 3: I felt like he made it a point to push 132 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 3: for me to be in the band. I don't really 133 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 3: know how I got a proof. I don't know the 134 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 3: channels that it went through. But even at the same time, 135 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 3: I knew like they're way more qualified people than me, 136 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: So I guess I felt like maybe that was the 137 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: only reason that I was in the group, and that 138 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 3: may me feel like I owed him something. Here I'm 139 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 3: having this awesome opportunity and I knew like I shouldn't 140 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 3: be going, But just thinking today that may have been 141 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 3: part of it. And then just you know, the innocent 142 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 3: comments or walking by and brush up against me kind 143 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 3: of thing, which you know, reading about grooming specifically, those 144 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 3: are some of the ways that it's done. And there 145 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 3: were a lot of instances like that, just randomly out 146 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 3: of nowhere kind of thing. 147 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 2: And that's the kind of stuff I'm curious about, you know, 148 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: because I'm just starting to kind of learn about that 149 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: grooming process as well. Is that how it starts, just 150 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: like you know, the walking by and like tap you 151 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 2: on the shoulder or I don't know, I mean, is 152 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: that how he was? 153 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 3: Yes? I mean a lot of times there were just 154 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 3: those I mean not completely blatant obvious things to realize, 155 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: you know, to notice, but probably to everyone else around 156 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: wouldn't be obvious. 157 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 2: I have to ask, and this is not easy for me, 158 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: but was his marriage ever talked about? Or was I 159 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: ever brought up? 160 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 3: I don't remember much conversation other than you know, like 161 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 3: where you were working at the time. I mean, I 162 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 3: knew that you traveled a lot, and then just bits 163 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 3: of conversation like when you guys opened the coffee shower, 164 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 3: but nothing super personal. I remember that there was never 165 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 3: any indication on his part that what we were doing 166 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 3: was wrong. I felt it. I knew it. I mentioned it. 167 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: When you mentioned it. What was his response? 168 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: Just the reiteration of how he felt about me. I mean, 169 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 3: he really never openly talked about the marriage. 170 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 2: I feel like if I was with someone over the 171 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 2: span of four years, I would be emotionally invested and 172 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: I would have questions for him about why he's doing this. 173 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 2: I mean, did he talk about like he was going 174 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 2: to get divorced? 175 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 3: Ever, I guess if you're asking if I felt like 176 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: he was ever gonna divorce to be with me, we 177 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 3: never discussed that. And again, I guess from relationships in 178 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 3: my past, I didn't feel like I was worth having 179 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 3: in any kind of long term because most of the 180 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 3: people in my life in relationships left me, and so 181 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 3: maybe I've never even considered or accepted that of him. 182 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 3: Your discussed a future with me, And I know that 183 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: makes me sound terrible, like you're you're a fool for 184 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 3: being what someone like this. 185 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: No, I think he preyed on you and did make 186 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 2: you feel so good. That happens to a lot of people. 187 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 2: We get sucked in. I am in no way attacking you. 188 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: I have empathy for you. This still causing you pain 189 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: in your life. 190 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 3: Looking back, there was definitely more to it. Now. 191 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 2: So when you would see me, was it uncomfortable? 192 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 3: It was? I felt completely guilty and horrible. Yeah, it 193 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 3: felt weird. I didn't know how to act or how 194 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 3: to be. 195 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: It was just also shocking, you know, first the student 196 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: and then somebody I knew. Obviously, you know that he 197 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: got convicted. 198 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: Right. 199 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: Do you remember how you found out about his arrest. 200 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: I do. I had pulled up in the parking lot 201 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 3: at work. It was in the evening, and a friend 202 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: from the band text and said, have you heard about Spencer. 203 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 3: I was like, no, what's going on? And they went 204 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 3: on to tell me, you know, well, he's been arrested. 205 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 3: I was completely shocked. It's like, surely that can't be. 206 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 3: But I know that there wouldn't be an arrest weren't 207 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 3: of that nature and that seriousness without there being some 208 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 3: truth to it. So I guess part of me knew, Okay, yeah, 209 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 3: I can see. 210 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: This, you could. 211 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 3: I mean I guess based on some of the experiences 212 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 3: that I had, part of me could see that that 213 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: was probably true. There were things that were asked of 214 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 3: me that I was absolutely not comfortable with, and I 215 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: feel like I was forced to play a role that 216 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 3: was not me. There would be certain looks that just 217 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 3: made me feel different. In cunning words, I guess. 218 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 2: You know, obviously he had a side to him that 219 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: I never knew anything about. Did you see a side 220 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 2: to him that you didn't expect? 221 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a very dominating side to him. Just 222 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 3: some of the physical quests they were foreign to me. 223 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 3: Looking back, I remember a couple of times where you know, 224 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 3: he would kind of put his hands around my throat 225 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 3: and push down. That kind of caught me off guard. Yeah, 226 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 3: you had a lot of fantasies that he wanted played 227 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 3: out different things at different times, and I don't really 228 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 3: want to be very specific, but there was a time 229 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 3: where you know, yeah, you know, I want you to 230 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 3: be this way when I come in. I just didn't 231 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: know anything about a lot of that, so I didn't 232 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 3: know how to be other than just comply. 233 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: When you think about Spence, what do you think of 234 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: now or how do you see him now? 235 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: I don't know. Part of me is angry at him 236 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 3: for dragging me through all of this. That's not to 237 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,359 Speaker 3: say that I don't take full responsibility for my actions, 238 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 3: but years later, I still get very emotional about it. 239 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: And still have so much guilt and shame and next me, 240 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: mad Adam. 241 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: You have every right to be mad at him. 242 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 3: I mean, there's a person in a band that he 243 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 3: has written letters to asking if I'm okay, Like, don't 244 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 3: ask about me, Like, just don't leave me out of it. 245 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 2: You obviously take responsibility for your decisions, but in a way, 246 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: and I hope you're not offended by this word, but 247 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 2: I almost see you as a victim. Does that make sense? 248 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 3: I think so, I do. 249 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: Many years later. Why do you think you still feel 250 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: so bad about this? 251 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a Christian. I was raised to know 252 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: right or wrong, and I just feel like I let 253 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 3: so many people down. It's just my nature. I'm a 254 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 3: people pleaser to a fault, and I can't stand the 255 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 3: thought of somebody being disappointed in me, or to know 256 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 3: that I've hurt someone deeply. And I know at some 257 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 3: point in my life I have to forgive myself, but 258 00:16:58,640 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: it's just really hard. 259 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 2: Who do you feel like is disappointed in you? Still? 260 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: Obviously the commander of the unit here, I've taken this 261 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 3: pledge to put honesty, integrity into service before self, and 262 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 3: I failed at that. 263 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: What is the shame. Where is that coming from? Is 264 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 2: it just having an affair and getting caught no? 265 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 3: I you know, I know a lot of people would think, oh, 266 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 3: you're just upset that you got caught. No A truly 267 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 3: feel like a disgusting person, But knowing better, I allowed 268 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 3: myself to get wrapped up in that and that I 269 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 3: didn't stop it. 270 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 2: I should have. When you're around the band members, now, 271 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 2: what is that like for you? 272 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 3: I don't know who in the band knows who doesn't. 273 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 3: I assume that everyone does. But thankfully there's some genuinely 274 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 3: good people that realize people make mistake. I was surprised 275 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,959 Speaker 3: at the people that chose to write and communicate and 276 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 3: that until you, nobody has reached out to me to 277 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 3: see how I'm doing with all of it. 278 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: You know, I'm sorry no one's reached out to you. 279 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: I can't believe people in the unit have been writing 280 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: dispense after everything he's done. 281 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 3: Another thing I've never really fully understood was I got 282 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 3: the standoff ish vibes. But then I know that there 283 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 3: were some that were very proactive in defending him, and 284 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: I was outcast. How could these people go and defend 285 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 3: somebody who did this to a child. 286 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: Do you ever get angry about that? I do. 287 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, It's just still unfair, you know, to have the 288 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 3: commander of the unit come into the band building dressed 289 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 3: in a suit, ready to go to headquarters to plead 290 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 3: a case for somebody to get an honorable discharge, and 291 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 3: to not even beat me or be able to really 292 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 3: look at me. 293 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: That's a really shitty thing to do. You're going to 294 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: waltz in there and tell them what a great guy 295 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 2: this person is that's in prison for sexual assault of 296 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: a student six counts. 297 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 3: And I think that's the first time I verbalized that 298 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 3: to anybody. How that has made me feel, especially specifically 299 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 3: with people in the unit. 300 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: Did you ever think that there might be other women? 301 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 3: No? I that never crossed my mind, not to say 302 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 3: that I was something spectacular that he didn't want to 303 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 3: go anywhere else. But now I'm kind of curious, like, 304 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 3: how extensive is this or was I the only idiot 305 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 3: out there that fell for this? 306 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 2: Besides the high school student, there were many other women. 307 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 2: I don't know how that makes you feel. I don't 308 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: mean to hurt you. 309 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: No, I don't think it as that. It's just I'm 310 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: not the only one that hurt you or that was 311 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 3: hurt most likely themselves. 312 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: Have you ever thought about writing him a letter? 313 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 3: Yes? 314 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 2: And no. 315 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 3: I've been given his address, and every time that I 316 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 3: thought about it, I was like, no, I'm not ready. 317 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 3: Like I first of all, I don't want to give 318 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 3: him the satisfaction of me reaching out. 319 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 2: To him, and then. 320 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 3: Like, what would I say? Maybe it would feel good 321 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 3: to write it and never send it, but yeah, I've 322 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 3: chosen not too. I wish I could forget the whole thing. 323 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 3: I was a person that I don't recognize. I don't 324 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 3: want to remember that person. 325 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 2: This is not the worst thing that has ever happened 326 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: in the world, and if we cannot learn and crow 327 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 2: from the bumps of life, yes, a sad way to 328 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: look at it. You're getting married in two weeks. I 329 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 2: am you must be so excited. 330 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 3: I feel a lot better now that we've gotten through 331 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 3: all of this. I don't feel as afraid. 332 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 2: I guess good and. 333 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,959 Speaker 3: My fiance knows the situation. I think that's really amazing 334 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 3: that he can know me at my lowest points and 335 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 3: all of the the bad decisions and still find it 336 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 3: and it's hard to love me. So I feel very 337 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 3: undeserving of it, but I'm very thankful for it. 338 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: You shouldn't we all deserve that. I mean, I think 339 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: about it too. Am I ever going to meet someone 340 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 2: that is okay with the fact that I was married 341 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: to this guy who got sent to prison? You know, 342 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: I just I don't want you living with this hanging 343 00:21:55,840 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: over your head in any way because it's over. You know, 344 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: it was like a different chapter, but you're about to 345 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: embark on a new chapter. Don't carry this in with it, okay. 346 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: I don't look at this situation like what a bitch. 347 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 2: I can't believe she had an affair. I look at 348 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 2: it as you were caught up in something that was 349 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 2: incredibly manipulative without knowing that somebody was being manipulative. Your 350 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: side of the story, I think is as important as mine. 351 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 2: If anybody's going to learn something from this. You know, 352 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 2: there's somebody else out there who feels shame about an 353 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 2: affair they had, you know I had. 354 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: I appreciate how comfortable you may may feel. 355 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 2: Remember this is not easy for me, but you made 356 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: me feel comfortable as well. And congratulations again. 357 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 3: Thank you. I appreciate that. 358 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: Enjoy and be happy. Do you think you can. 359 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 3: I think I can now I feel more at peace 360 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 3: about it. I think at this point I can at 361 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 3: least try to forgive myself and move forward, beat myself 362 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 3: up over for the rest of my life, for a 363 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: part of my life that is no more well. 364 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,719 Speaker 2: I Hope you know that I don't hold anger or 365 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: bitterness towards you. 366 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, thankful for that. 367 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 4: I wanted to regroup with you on something that Hope 368 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 4: said because I found it really heartbreaking. She mentioned that 369 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 4: she was being snubbed by people in the Air Force. Meanwhile, 370 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 4: there are people in the vand that are going and 371 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 4: speaking on Spence's behalf, and that just felt so. 372 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 3: Hypocritical. 373 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: So after talking with Hope, I feel for her. You know, 374 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 2: she still holds so much shame about what she did, 375 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 2: and so me talking to her, it was really nice 376 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 2: to hear her side of the story because I've read 377 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 2: a lot of correspondence between Hope and Spence, and that 378 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 2: relationship is exactly what I thought. It was him manipulating her, 379 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: telling her he loves her, and having her do things 380 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 2: she's not comfortable with, and you can just see it 381 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: then when I hear that everybody is snubbing her and 382 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 2: making her to feel like she's the bad guy here 383 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: and they go and they defend Spence. It made me 384 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 2: so mad. As soon as I got off the phone, 385 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: I called up one of the leaders that was in 386 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: this band. Great guy, you know, this is part of 387 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 2: our extended family. So I felt comfortable calling him. But 388 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,959 Speaker 2: I confronted him and I was upset and said, I 389 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: heard that you guys all went in and spoke up 390 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 2: on Spence's behalf and tried to say nice things about him, all. 391 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 4: In an efor for an honorable discharge. 392 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, he was really honest about it, didn't get defensive, 393 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 2: and he heard me out and then he explained his side. 394 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 2: The band is like a family, for sure, and so 395 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 2: they look after one another. I didn't understand why they 396 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 2: were looking after Spence so much, though, but what he 397 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 2: told me was everything that they did is for the kids, 398 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: for Spence's family, so that they are not affected any 399 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 2: more than they already are. 400 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 4: So like, if he has an honorable discharge, then he'll 401 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 4: still get a pension or something like that. 402 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 5: I think it's a financial thing, you know, they get benefits, 403 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 5: insurance and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, there's nuance to this, right, 404 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 5: So when he explained it that way, I did understand 405 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 5: their reasoning, and I want, hope to know that that's 406 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 5: the reasoning too. 407 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 4: Maybe that'll help provide some context, and I hope that 408 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 4: they'll be a little bit nicer to her. 409 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: I hope. So what struck me the. 410 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 4: Most from your conversation was her willingness to own it 411 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 4: all and be very self aware of where she was 412 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 4: in the time of her life when she got involved 413 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 4: with your ex husband. It's so stripped down and honest, 414 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 4: and I think a lot of people can relate to 415 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 4: decisions that you make when you're not your best self, 416 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 4: or you don't have the best faculties, like you know, 417 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 4: self worth, and that takes a tremendous amount of courage 418 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 4: and vulnerability to be honest. 419 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 2: She was so brave and talking to me and doing this, 420 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 2: and I'm so glad she did, because yes, she made mistakes, 421 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: and she made some poor choices. There is another side though. 422 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: She was preyed upon, and I think people tend to 423 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: prey on people and manipulate people who are a little 424 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 2: more vulnerable and do need and crave that attention. Hopefully 425 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 2: anybody hearing her story will realize, you know, no way. 426 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 2: I'm worth more. I deserve better and will realize that 427 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: the behavior that some of these people are portraying, it's 428 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 2: not okay. 429 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 4: You talked to the high school student, talk to Hope, 430 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 4: and I know that part of this whole process, You've 431 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 4: wanted to have a face to face with Spencer. Are 432 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 4: you ready to get that ball rolling? 433 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: Yeah? I dread seeing Spence again, I really do, because 434 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 2: I've not seen him since the day he was arrested. 435 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 2: But this is about finding answers and having more clarity 436 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 2: and understanding about who he was and why he did this, 437 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 2: And so yeah, I have to sit down with him 438 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: and talk to him. He promised me he is totally 439 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: willing to talk with me and answer questions. You know, 440 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 2: there may be some he doesn't want to answer, but 441 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: he agreed, he said, totally willing to do this. So 442 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 2: what we're going to. 443 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 4: Try and do is set up like a formal one 444 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 4: on one at the prison. 445 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: Gosh, can you imagine walking into that prison. That is 446 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: going to be one of the scariest moments of my life. 447 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 448 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 2: You know, it's one thing just to talk to him 449 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: from there, but it would be another to walk in 450 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: to this prison. That he's locked up in. Oh my gosh. 451 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 2: I can't wait to be done. I just want to 452 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: have one last conversation with him and then I can 453 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 2: just put this to bed. It's behind me. I don't 454 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: ever need to correspond with him again. 455 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: And still to come this season, Jennifer confronts Spencer. 456 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 2: The last time we talked, you felt as if you 457 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: were fine and cured, and it has gone away. 458 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 3: Hey, I still feel that way. 459 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team, 460 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's 461 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production 462 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership. 463 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: With iHeart Podcasts. 464 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, 465 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced 466 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our iHeart 467 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinchick. Special thanks to 468 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: voice actors Todd Gans and Rocky Aalt. Sound editing and 469 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: mixing done by Matt Tavecio. Betrayal's theme was composed by 470 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: Oliver Bains Music Library provided by my Music. And for 471 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 472 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.