Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session four fifty three of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls podcasts. We'll get right into our
Speaker 1: conversation after word from our sponsors. The ability to express
Speaker 1: ourselves through speech remains one of the most important ways
Speaker 1: we communicate. It's at the root of how we connect,
Speaker 1: understand each other, and even how we explore our own identities.
Speaker 1: From childhood, we learn that what we say and how
Speaker 1: we're able to say it can impact how we move
Speaker 1: through the world. Speech pathologists help those of us who
Speaker 1: experience challenges in expressing our thoughts in processing language, and
Speaker 1: as important as this work is, there are still disparities
Speaker 1: in who receives care. A recent study from twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four found that black patients are about thirteen percent less
Speaker 1: likely to receive speech language pathology services than white patients,
Speaker 1: even after accounting for differences in health and demographic factors.
Speaker 1: That's why I'm excited to welcome doctor don Ellis. She's
Speaker 1: a speech language pathologist, advocate, and educator whose journey led
Speaker 1: her to a career helping children, families, and communities communicate
Speaker 1: with confidence. In this conversation, we explore language development, identity,
Speaker 1: and how communication intersects with mental health, particularly for black
Speaker 1: women and families. If something resonates with you while enjoying
Speaker 1: our conversation, please share with us on social media using
Speaker 1: the hashtag TBG in session, or join us over in
Speaker 1: our patreons and talk more about the episode. You can
Speaker 1: join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Hi, doctor Ellis, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today. Hi, thank you for having me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to chat with you. So can you
Speaker 1: start by telling us about your journey in speech and
Speaker 1: language pathology and what drew you to this field.
Speaker 2: Sure. So when people ask this question, I think about
Speaker 2: my Cotilion book that in there, my under my picture
Speaker 2: I had listed I wanted to be a child physists.
Speaker 2: Not sure what that is. But fast forward to going
Speaker 2: to college. I was accepted into cal State Fresno, and
Speaker 2: when my parents got there to drop me off, they
Speaker 2: said they had their quota of black students. The letter
Speaker 2: hadn't reached them yet, and so I could not enroll,
Speaker 2: I couldn't stay. And so I'm not sure and I
Speaker 2: would tease my mom how this happened. But on the
Speaker 2: way home, they stopped at Bakersfail College and they knew
Speaker 2: that they had dorms and they had a space. Someone
Speaker 2: didn't show up in the dorms, and so they left
Speaker 2: me there and they were like, oh, we'll get her
Speaker 2: enrolled and all of her aid and everything will transfer
Speaker 2: because it was this state school. And so my work
Speaker 2: study job was in the handicapped Service center and I
Speaker 2: was assigned to the speech language pathologists. Wow. And so
Speaker 2: I always say, God makes no mistakes. And so then
Speaker 2: I finished my two years they and transfer to cal
Speaker 2: State University Northbridge, where I got my bachelor's in Communicative
Speaker 2: Sciences and Disorders and then onto Howard University where I
Speaker 2: got my master's at my doctorate.
Speaker 1: Wow, that is quite a story. I love that it
Speaker 1: has come full circle for you. Actually it has been
Speaker 1: a field that you have thrived in. So what did
Speaker 1: you intend to major in when you were going to college?
Speaker 2: I knew I wanted to work with children, and so,
Speaker 2: like I said, I don't know what a physiologist was
Speaker 2: what I put in that or answered that question, but
Speaker 2: probably I was thinking psychology. I was probably thinking child psychology.
Speaker 2: But I knew I wanted to work with children. So
Speaker 2: at Howard they had a grant from Department of Ed
Speaker 2: Office Special ED program, which is another full circle moment
Speaker 2: because I later in my career I became one of
Speaker 2: the competition managers for that program at Department of Ed.
Speaker 2: But it was specializing in zero to five. So that
Speaker 2: was when the law had changed, the Individuals with Disabilities
Speaker 2: Education Act where it went down to age zero, so
Speaker 2: it started from at three to twenty one and the
Speaker 2: law had changed. And so what the department event put
Speaker 2: out programs which I now know to make sure that
Speaker 2: people are trained both what we call pre service, which
Speaker 2: is at the university level, and in service, which would
Speaker 2: be what you're a professional and getting like continuing education units.
Speaker 2: But through my masters, I was trained in pediatrics, so
Speaker 2: we had to take twelve more units and have more
Speaker 2: clinical hours in that birth to five population.
Speaker 1: Got it. And so what does a typical day look
Speaker 1: like for you as a special language pathologist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so now it's a little different from the work
Speaker 2: that I do. But I have a private practice and
Speaker 2: I'm also associate director of Technical Assistance Center. So my
Speaker 2: private practice, I mainly my caseload is with individuals with
Speaker 2: developmental with intellectual and developmental disabilities. So I see some
Speaker 2: clients via telehealth and home health. And that home health
Speaker 2: the clients can be in their natural home with their
Speaker 2: parent or guardian, or they could live in supportive living
Speaker 2: like a group home. So I try to focus like
Speaker 2: one specific day for doing home health when I'm out
Speaker 2: in the community going into the homes to see clients.
Speaker 2: And then I have virtual clients, you know via telehealth,
Speaker 2: and some clients that I see via telehealth. I also
Speaker 2: I do like a hybrid model, so I make sure
Speaker 2: that I see them like once a quarter, once a
Speaker 2: month in person. So that's pretty much like a typical day.
Speaker 2: In between that there's a lot of planning, there's billing,
Speaker 2: there's I do service work. So I do a lot
Speaker 2: of service work with my national professional organization, so I
Speaker 2: may I sit on a committee right now, I'm on
Speaker 2: the Committee of Ambassadors with the American Speed, Language and
Speaker 2: Hearing Association, and I am the Speech Language Pathologist representative
Speaker 2: for the District of Columbia. So in that there's a
Speaker 2: lot of work just doing advocacy work. And then I'm
Speaker 2: also the associate director of DREAM, which is a national
Speaker 2: technical assistance center that supports minority serving institutions, including HBCUs
Speaker 2: and tribal colleges to help them write applications and build
Speaker 2: capacity to get federal funds to train personnel under the
Speaker 2: Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
Speaker 1: Beautiful, You're a very busy woman.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I get to do a lot of things that
Speaker 2: I love to do and that have just built upon
Speaker 2: my experience over the years.
Speaker 1: Mm hm. So I feel like I've only i think
Speaker 1: historically heard about speech and language pathologists as a part
Speaker 1: of like elementary school, but clearly the work that you
Speaker 1: do spans much later into life as well. So you've
Speaker 1: already talked about working in schools, having a private practice.
Speaker 1: What other kinds of career paths might have speech language
Speaker 1: pathologies be able to explore.
Speaker 2: Sure, And that's a great question. So I think about
Speaker 2: my own career path where I started working in schools,
Speaker 2: in early intervention, which is in community based settings, going
Speaker 2: into home, also at daycares, in hospitals, so that's some
Speaker 2: of the places that you can work hospitals, rehabilitation, in
Speaker 2: the home. I've been on faculty both at Oklahoma State
Speaker 2: University and Galadette University, also adjuncts here in the area
Speaker 2: like Howard University of District of Columbia, and also I
Speaker 2: worked for my national professional association, the American Speech Language
Speaker 2: and Hearing Association, where I worked in their research department
Speaker 2: where I was the director and manager of federal funds,
Speaker 2: which gave me federal experience, and then working you know,
Speaker 2: in federal service for the government. Living here in the
Speaker 2: District of Columbia, I had the mindset that I wanted
Speaker 2: to work in all of these because there are some
Speaker 2: really unique opportunities being here in the nation's capital. So
Speaker 2: I wanted to touch all of those and so I
Speaker 2: felt like I was successful doing that. But you can
Speaker 2: be in academia you can work at the university level
Speaker 2: as a faculty member or a clinical educator where you
Speaker 2: are supervising students doing like practicum because usually the university
Speaker 2: settings have a speech and hearing clinic where scholars or
Speaker 2: students get their experience first in the clinic before going
Speaker 2: out to like a practicum site. There's just so many
Speaker 2: opportunities in different settings that people can work in. I
Speaker 2: have friends that are colleagues in private practice that also
Speaker 2: work with, say, actors on modification of a dialect for
Speaker 2: a role in a movie. There are some that work
Speaker 2: in the corporate setting that may want to help people
Speaker 2: communicate better. That's a job that's more of an elective.
Speaker 2: It's not a deficit, but it's something that corporations may
Speaker 2: want to offer as a benefit to people, and just
Speaker 2: not to accent or dialect reduction, but also just to
Speaker 2: be an overall better and more effective communicator.
Speaker 1: So, doctor ellis, what are some of the common speech
Speaker 1: and language and communication disorders that we might be both
Speaker 1: familiar with, but maybe some that we also aren't familiar with.
Speaker 2: Yes, so when we talk about speech, we think of production, articulation,
Speaker 2: motor planning, voice fluency. All of those fall under speech
Speaker 2: and talk about familiarity versus non familiar One of the
Speaker 2: things we like to talk about fluency, which most people
Speaker 2: may know as stuttering. We don't like to use that
Speaker 2: term because we don't want to label individuals, but mainly
Speaker 2: refer to the characteristic of the speech, which is a
Speaker 2: disruption in the flow. So we talk about fluency disorders.
Speaker 2: When we think of receptive language, what we understand expressive language,
Speaker 2: you know what we're able our words or grammar are sentences.
Speaker 2: Then there's vocabulary, grammar, and pragmatics, which is more social
Speaker 2: communication and how you use the language in a social context,
Speaker 2: and then communication overall social communication, we can talk about
Speaker 2: alternative and assistive devices, agnitiative and alternative devices. That's part
Speaker 2: of communication, so people that may use a device to communicate,
Speaker 2: and then cognitive communication, memory and attention, executive function, and
Speaker 2: multimodal communication, sign language, people using gestures, body language. Those
Speaker 2: are some of the areas that communication could be effective.
Speaker 2: Might seek out a speech language pathologist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so such a wide variety, right, And I think
Speaker 1: when you hear it broken down that way, you realize,
Speaker 1: like how many parts there are to speech in communication.
Speaker 1: So maybe we just start with like fluency, right, which
Speaker 1: you talked about, used to be known as stuttering, but
Speaker 1: the more appropriate term now is a fluency concern. When
Speaker 1: you talk about fluency, is this typically a physiological kind
Speaker 1: of concern? Is it more social emotional? Like? What is
Speaker 1: typically the cause of a fluency concern? Yeah, it can be.
Speaker 2: All of the above or parts of that. So I
Speaker 2: think about when we look at children. Children can in
Speaker 2: the developmental stages of language, especially at ages like three
Speaker 2: and four, their receptive language always exceeds expressive. So children
Speaker 2: are going to understand more than they're able to get out.
Speaker 2: And so when they're trying to get all their thoughts
Speaker 2: together and express that, and sometimes they know what they
Speaker 2: want to say, but they don't don't have the words,
Speaker 2: that can't put it into words, and that might sound
Speaker 2: disfluent to a parent. So often we get oh, my
Speaker 2: child's stuttering, you know. So first the thing is like, okay,
Speaker 2: let's you know, we counsel parents, like we want to
Speaker 2: talk about the characteristics and not label it. You don't
Speaker 2: want to call attention to it because then that makes
Speaker 2: the child self conscious about it, and you know, let's
Speaker 2: give it time for maturation, for development, and you may
Speaker 2: see those disfluencies go away. You don't be a good
Speaker 2: model yourself is slowing down your speech and helping them
Speaker 2: find the words by just modeling those words, not scolding
Speaker 2: or shaming someone about not being able to get their
Speaker 2: words out. But then we can see where there could
Speaker 2: be an issue as time develops an age and a
Speaker 2: person may still have those disfluencies. Sometimes it could be
Speaker 2: related to trauma like adverse childhood experiences. Not all the time,
Speaker 2: but it can be you know, something comes up, you
Speaker 2: saw something, or you get in a situation where you
Speaker 2: feel stressed. So therefore, and it could be a stressful environment.
Speaker 2: And then it develops more into a pattern, and then
Speaker 2: we see adults that as you get older, the individual
Speaker 2: has maintained those patterns and may need to seek therapy
Speaker 2: for just ways to modify and to control that. And
Speaker 2: sometimes that also involves counseling, especially if there is some
Speaker 2: trauma identify with how a person may have begun to
Speaker 2: have some disfluencies.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, are there particular
Speaker 1: concerns that you feel like are often misdiagnosed or overlooked,
Speaker 1: especially in the black community. When we're thinking about Speacian
Speaker 1: language and communication disorders.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just acceptance awareness. So under a lot of times
Speaker 2: people aren't aware of a speech language pathologist, and people
Speaker 2: think about speech only, but they don't think about the
Speaker 2: language part or the cognitive and how all that works together.
Speaker 2: So when we look in the school setting, their research
Speaker 2: and you can look like there may be an over
Speaker 2: diagnosis or overrepresentation of black children in special led programs.
Speaker 2: But also there's some research that suggests that there is
Speaker 2: an underidentification of people of color with speech and language disorders,
Speaker 2: because when you look at individuals that are incarcerated, often
Speaker 2: there is some evidence that there is a disability, whether
Speaker 2: it's diagnosed or undiagnosed, that there's something going on there.
Speaker 2: So there's two schools of thought there, you know, and
Speaker 2: both could be true in different contexts. That's the same time.
Speaker 2: But I think just the awareness and the acceptance that
Speaker 2: my child may need to get help. And we're talking
Speaker 2: about children here, because on the adult side, there are
Speaker 2: things that happen like stroke, close head injury, traumatic brain injury,
Speaker 2: which then you're in a medical setting where these services
Speaker 2: speech OT or PT are presented to you based upon
Speaker 2: your needs, but when we're talking about children and youth
Speaker 2: sometimes there's acceptance. There's also I think we're coming out
Speaker 2: of this. The stigma associated with someone that may have
Speaker 2: a disability, that a communication disorder is part of this.
Speaker 2: And I was just thinking about yesterday. I was in
Speaker 2: New York and I saw Purpose and it was there
Speaker 2: some underlying issues in the play about people not being
Speaker 2: diagnosed about ural divergence and wanting to keep that hush
Speaker 2: hush about what my child may be experiencing. So I
Speaker 2: think there's that shame sometimes in that stigma. But the
Speaker 2: more that we're aware, the more that there's awareness of
Speaker 2: individuals across the board with disabilities, the more acceptance there is,
Speaker 2: and the more acceptance there is to get help and
Speaker 2: not feel that shame because my child is not perfect,
Speaker 2: so I kind of want to keep it hush. And
Speaker 2: I saw I was a girl Scout leader and when
Speaker 2: my kids were younger, and I would have parents that
Speaker 2: would not want to identify and they didn't have to,
Speaker 2: that was their choice. But being in the field, it's
Speaker 2: like I knew how to deal with that, but other leaders,
Speaker 2: when it's not identify, may not and you're taking a
Speaker 2: child out like on a camping trip or something like that.
Speaker 2: And there are things that could be really helpful if
Speaker 2: you knew, and that you can make accommodations for and
Speaker 2: make it work. But just hoping that the more awareness
Speaker 2: of people with disabilities and you know, including the communication
Speaker 2: disorder and the fact that that doesn't mean that something
Speaker 2: is wrong or is that you can't fully participate in society,
Speaker 2: I think is key.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know. And as you're talking, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about like my two little ones, Like when I would
Speaker 1: be filling out paperwork at the pediatrician, I remember questions
Speaker 1: around like have they shared their first words? And like
Speaker 1: they are all these milestones, and I'm thinking like beyond
Speaker 1: like your pediatrician, and maybe if like a teacher or
Speaker 1: somebody recognizes, like, hey, there may be some calls for
Speaker 1: concern here, like what kinds of things should parents or
Speaker 1: caregivers be paying attention to well on the look up
Speaker 1: for that there may be something going on that might
Speaker 1: require some additional treatment.
Speaker 2: This is a great question too, because I don't have
Speaker 2: grandchildren right now, but a lot of my friends are
Speaker 2: having aired first grandchild, and I get a lot of
Speaker 2: cause about hey, can you come over and observe or
Speaker 2: this is going on, and sometimes it starts with the grandparent,
Speaker 2: you know, but and I haven't done that throughout my career.
Speaker 2: But being aware of what the developmental milestones are, knowing
Speaker 2: that a child's development and acquisition of sounds could be
Speaker 2: through like age six to eight. So s is a
Speaker 2: later developing sound or thch is a later developing sound.
Speaker 2: So if they're using an easier sound to produce a
Speaker 2: word than you know, rabbit for rabbit, then that's okay,
Speaker 2: Like that's okay, They're not expected to produce that sound yet.
Speaker 2: So being aware of what like milestones are, especially for sounds,
Speaker 2: that's like one of the biggest one. Also not comparing.
Speaker 2: We hear this throughout life. Right, she has a cousin
Speaker 2: the same age and she is talking so much better,
Speaker 2: but then also realizing that she's more repeating things. There
Speaker 2: is nothing wrong, but it's just not the same. It's
Speaker 2: hard not to compare, but every child is different. So
Speaker 2: just knowing what the milestones are, just making sure that
Speaker 2: you are asking questions. And in a couple of these scenarios,
Speaker 2: teachers have said or daycare like, hey, what does so
Speaker 2: and so speech sound like at home? Or how are
Speaker 2: they talking at home? Also in two days world, when
Speaker 2: we're thinking about children that maybe three four thinking about
Speaker 2: COVID babies, you know everybody was isolated so during that time,
Speaker 2: and you hear a parents say, oh, she was a
Speaker 2: co baby. So not saying that things are delayed, but
Speaker 2: we know that when children are around other children, they
Speaker 2: begin to pick up things, they begin to communicate on
Speaker 2: their level with their peers. So that's another thing. Being
Speaker 2: involved in play groups and talking to other parents, not
Speaker 2: in a comparison way, but just to get information. But
Speaker 2: of course all the things we hear about, continue to
Speaker 2: read and expose your child to opportunities in everyday life,
Speaker 2: going to the grocery store, talking, playing outside, just natural
Speaker 2: things beyond technology and screen time. Not saying that that's bad,
Speaker 2: but just early on putting limits on it and knowing
Speaker 2: what to do. But it's just more being aware. And
Speaker 2: if you do, don't wait, because for a child time
Speaker 2: three months seems like half a year or a year
Speaker 2: in growth. So if you do have concern, don't wait.
Speaker 2: There's child fine in every state, every county which you
Speaker 2: can call, and if you don't know where to go,
Speaker 2: help to get started with Hey, I have these concerns,
Speaker 2: and how do I get started to figure out if
Speaker 2: I need to do something further to give my child
Speaker 2: the support they need.
Speaker 1: Our speech and language pathology is typically covered by insurance.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so that's a good question. So yes, if
Speaker 2: there is a disorder, and so that's going to be
Speaker 2: the key thing if you go the private route. So
Speaker 2: that's why I encourage parents when they do if their
Speaker 2: child is under five, to use the resources like child
Speaker 2: Fine and Early Start or whatever it's called in your area,
Speaker 2: because you're entitled to those services through the school system.
Speaker 2: So that's the place that I would always recommend that
Speaker 2: people start if your child is diagnosed. And each county,
Speaker 2: each state has their own criteria of how they determine eligibility.
Speaker 2: So if your child is determined eligible for services and
Speaker 2: I'm talking about now speech, occupational therapy, physical therapy for
Speaker 2: the birth to five, then you can get those services
Speaker 2: through the school system and for zero to two in
Speaker 2: the home, so they can come to your home or
Speaker 2: community based setting to provide those services. Some parents want
Speaker 2: to go private services might be limited through childflying based
Speaker 2: upon the eligibility criteria and the percentage that they may
Speaker 2: see a delay. We talk about delays in those early
Speaker 2: years versus disorders if there is some evidence of hearing
Speaker 2: loss of course there and hearing laws we know can
Speaker 2: delay language acquisition, the acquisition of sounds. You don't get
Speaker 2: the feedback like everybody gets, so you're not really sure
Speaker 2: when the sound doesn't sound right. And that's for adults too,
Speaker 2: so that would be covered. Of course, there's a whole
Speaker 2: process this, but usually when it comes to insurance, there
Speaker 2: has to be a delay or disorder identified and whatever
Speaker 2: that eligibility looks like for that insurance carrier. M.
Speaker 1: So you've already talked a little bit about like the
Speaker 1: different dialect we may have because we maybe grow up
Speaker 1: in different regions. Right, How do you differentiate the difference
Speaker 1: between like a dialect or somebody's like natural way of
Speaker 1: speaking versus somebody that's something that's a delay or a deficiency.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so good question. We talk about delay or disorder.
Speaker 2: We also see this in individuals whose primary language may
Speaker 2: not be English, so it's important to know sound like
Speaker 2: how they're functioning in l one the primary language versus
Speaker 2: the secondary language. But also when we're talking about a dialect,
Speaker 2: so speaking a second language, is different. But when we're
Speaker 2: talking about a dialect, it's important to know what the
Speaker 2: features are to know if it's a difference or versus
Speaker 2: a disord. So also just because someone doesn't sound like us,
Speaker 2: or they move to a different region and they sound different,
Speaker 2: does not mean that it's a disorder. And when we're
Speaker 2: talking about school age, how is it affecting their academic performance?
Speaker 2: That's gonna be really important. So we all know their
Speaker 2: Southern dialect. There's New England dialects, there's dialects. I came
Speaker 2: from California to Howard. I went to school in a valley,
Speaker 2: so I was I had valley speech. That's what they
Speaker 2: told me. But also when I was at Northridge, parents
Speaker 2: would bring their kids into the clinic wanting this valley
Speaker 2: speech worked on and stuff. So that was like I
Speaker 2: was a student then, But I do remember that. But
Speaker 2: different regions, different areas. Even here in the DMV, you're
Speaker 2: gonna hear different what we call prosodic patterns, tone, maybe
Speaker 2: even different morphological patterns. We see that in African American English.
Speaker 2: There's also Southern White English. There's so many different ones.
Speaker 2: Is it affecting your academic performance? Is it affecting your
Speaker 2: work performance in some way, and that could be objective,
Speaker 2: you know, how your speech is, but it's really up
Speaker 2: to how is the listener perceiving and are they perceiving
Speaker 2: a difference based upon what they sound like, and are
Speaker 2: they really having trouble with understanding or is it just
Speaker 2: they may not like the way the person sounds or
Speaker 2: it doesn't sound like.
Speaker 1: Them mm hmmmmmm. You know, as you're talking a to Ellice,
Speaker 1: it reminds me of the importance of having a variety
Speaker 1: of practitioners in the field because there's so often a
Speaker 1: connection between like what the presentation of a voice sounds like,
Speaker 1: in connecting that to like intellect in ways that are
Speaker 1: not accurate, and it sounds like that is what you're
Speaker 1: speaking to.
Speaker 2: Yes, And just because someone has a disfluency let's go
Speaker 2: back there, or someone doesn't sound like you, does not
Speaker 2: mean that it equates to intellect, you know, And I
Speaker 2: think that over time that's what has happened. Sometimes it's
Speaker 2: the majority, and the majority wants people to sound like
Speaker 2: what they sound like, and so therefore they perceive it
Speaker 2: to be People are less educated, and there are studies
Speaker 2: where there's unfamiliar listeners and people listen to just a
Speaker 2: recording or a voice and they rate maybe their education
Speaker 2: level or a number of things. And of course those
Speaker 2: that don't sound like the majority or maybe rate it lower.
Speaker 2: But when you look at qualifications, they could be higher,
Speaker 2: you know. And this is like in a study, but
Speaker 2: it's just rating people based upon how they sound as
Speaker 2: opposed to to who they are and what they bring
Speaker 2: to the table.
Speaker 1: Right, So, I wonder if you can talk about how
Speaker 1: growing up with a speech or a communication disorder impact
Speaker 1: somebody's mental health. I'm thinking things like self worth. You
Speaker 1: already mentioned a little bit about anxiety, Like what does
Speaker 1: this do for somebody's vision of themselves?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it can cause people to feel less than
Speaker 2: not comfortable with themselves. They lack confidence. And it could
Speaker 2: also be communication disorders, but other disabilities like ADHD. We
Speaker 2: talked about disfluencies. It could bring upon anxiety. People that
Speaker 2: may have issues with processing or social anxiety and they
Speaker 2: go into a room and we all know people stand
Speaker 2: up to start to speak and you just freeze. I
Speaker 2: know there are some people that may have OCD that
Speaker 2: also can bring about some of these disfluencies or or
Speaker 2: a lag in their communication, their responsiveness because they're processing,
Speaker 2: they're trying to get their thoughts together. That also happens
Speaker 2: with we said with people with disfluencies. They need that minute,
Speaker 2: or they're in a situation where they are traumatized, there's
Speaker 2: people there they may for whatever reason, all of these
Speaker 2: things plan to come into play where you're not getting
Speaker 2: enough sleep or you're not functioning at your best, and
Speaker 2: then you go into a situation and you're like frozen
Speaker 2: or you're tired, you're not getting your words together. So
Speaker 2: all of those things can come into play for individuals
Speaker 2: that may have a communication disorder and just not feeling
Speaker 2: real confident or I don't sound like this person, or
Speaker 2: people use big vocabulary or words and you may think
Speaker 2: my vocabulary is not the same. So therefore I'm not
Speaker 2: going to show up as I can because I'm not
Speaker 2: measuring up to others that may be in my environment.
Speaker 2: And that can be how you think about it, but
Speaker 2: that is not always true.
Speaker 1: What might it look like for an adult to work
Speaker 1: with a speech in language pathologist, Like is that an option?
Speaker 1: Like maybe you didn't realize as a child that there
Speaker 1: were these concerns, but you realize it as an adult,
Speaker 1: does it make sense to work with a speech in
Speaker 1: language pathologists then or is there some different treatment railte.
Speaker 2: At that point? As an adult, it's elective unless you
Speaker 2: had like post stroke or we're talking about traumatic brain injury,
Speaker 2: Parkinson's dementia, things like that. But yeah, like as an adult,
Speaker 2: it would be elective therapy. You know, it would not
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it couldn't be approved by insurance, but
Speaker 2: this is something later on. So but it's pretty much
Speaker 2: going to be elective therapy. And yes, it's finding out
Speaker 2: what is it that you want to achieve, What is
Speaker 2: it that you feel that you you want to address,
Speaker 2: or what responses are you getting from your communication partner
Speaker 2: that you feel that you may want to change, And
Speaker 2: so looking at it that way, and like I said,
Speaker 2: it's elective. So it depends upon the person and some
Speaker 2: of that. Like we are not counselors, but we're trained
Speaker 2: in some aspects of counseling. You know, usually there's a
Speaker 2: counseling course that the program that you have to take
Speaker 2: because it is getting at that root and building confidence.
Speaker 2: So some of my adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities,
Speaker 2: which is different that I work with those that are
Speaker 2: able to use some language, we work on confidence and
Speaker 2: we go out in the community. We may go to
Speaker 2: a place to order practice ordering food or asking questions
Speaker 2: in the community and getting them comfortable in the community
Speaker 2: around people, and just the feedback that they're getting once
Speaker 2: people realize, Okay, this person may not communicate, but they're
Speaker 2: here and they're a consumer and I want to help them.
Speaker 2: And so what ends up happening is that the adult
Speaker 2: with the disability is getting positive feedback and that's building
Speaker 2: their confidence to make them want to participate more in
Speaker 2: the community and use their communication skills.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break are other strategies
Speaker 1: for building confidence that you can share with people who
Speaker 1: maybe you're wanting to work on this.
Speaker 2: Just self acceptance, like this is who I am. Sometimes
Speaker 2: I think about it like I wore bracest I have
Speaker 2: a gap. That's who I am and I love it now.
Speaker 2: And my mom would say, oh, you didn't wear your retainer.
Speaker 2: You didn't wear your retainer. But I don't want to
Speaker 2: close the gap. Some people might and that's their choice.
Speaker 2: But I'm confident in my smile and how my gift
Speaker 2: shows up in my life. If my personality. So the
Speaker 2: same with your speech. And that is also if you
Speaker 2: just wanted to be confident in however you speak, if
Speaker 2: you have a Southern dialect, if people tell you, oh,
Speaker 2: you sound like whatever it is, you sound like, you
Speaker 2: don't sound black. We used to hear that a lot
Speaker 2: on the telephone, you know, on telephone you come in,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, you didn't sound like It's like asking
Speaker 2: questions like, well, what does that sound like to you?
Speaker 2: And just being comfortable in who you are and just
Speaker 2: knowing that we are all uniquely and wonderfully made. But
Speaker 2: if you do choose to address your communication different then
Speaker 2: that's your choice and you have a choice. But a
Speaker 2: lot of it is building that confidence with self acceptance
Speaker 2: only that everyone is not perfect everyone, just like we
Speaker 2: say everybody. Life is not how it is on social media,
Speaker 2: So just how people show up and present themselves that
Speaker 2: this is who you are and embrace who you are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what does treatment typically look like, doctor Ellis,
Speaker 1: Let's say that you are working with maybe a child
Speaker 1: who has some disfluency. What will treatment look like and
Speaker 1: how might that be different working with kids versus adults?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so with children, there's different exercises. We talk about breathing,
Speaker 2: depending upon if the child's ready for breathing exercise. Also
Speaker 2: taking words, breaking it down one syllable at a time
Speaker 2: or is that phone name? Also identifying which are there
Speaker 2: particular sounds that they're more just fluent on than others,
Speaker 2: having them being maybe some voice recording, having them listen
Speaker 2: and differentiate, because once you're aware, then it gets a
Speaker 2: little easier to work on. So differentiation and when something
Speaker 2: may sound disfluent and when it's more fluent. So just
Speaker 2: building some self awareness so then they're able to kind
Speaker 2: of listen for that and address it. But kind of
Speaker 2: very easy. Working on rate. If they're a fast talker,
Speaker 2: that may result in some disfluencies, then working on the
Speaker 2: rate of speech. So it depends upon what areas of
Speaker 2: disfluent speech they have. So now when we talk about adults,
Speaker 2: it may be starting with some history and knowing when
Speaker 2: this first start, trying to see if there is something
Speaker 2: there that may have triggered, and then having the adult
Speaker 2: think of when are your most disfluent moments, So being
Speaker 2: able to identify when are they most disfluent and if
Speaker 2: there are certain situations, so being situational awareness and working
Speaker 2: on those types of things and then moving more to
Speaker 2: exercises that will help them easy talk, flow, doing breathing
Speaker 2: before going into a sentence, if it's a certain sound.
Speaker 2: A lot of times it's looking for the right word,
Speaker 2: so you're trying to process and which may be causing
Speaker 2: some dysfluency. So it's coming up with strategy. So that's
Speaker 2: how it might differ from a child versus an adult.
Speaker 1: And what kinds of things can loved ones do to
Speaker 1: support somebody who maybe has a communication difference.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just embrace, don't think about stigma, don't think about shaming. Rushing.
Speaker 2: That's another thing. Giving people their time and their space,
Speaker 2: not finishing their sentences, So giving them that time to communicate,
Speaker 2: talking with them about how they feel and asking how
Speaker 2: they can support them, not ordering for them or when
Speaker 2: you go out, not being their spokesperson, but also letting
Speaker 2: them have the opportunity and also making sure that other
Speaker 2: family members and friends and support are also giving them
Speaker 2: that same opportunity because a lot of times we just
Speaker 2: want to hurry up, So let me just hurry up
Speaker 2: in order for you, let me just finish your sentence.
Speaker 2: But we've probably seen scenarios where with children when a
Speaker 2: sibling when one is learning to talk to the other,
Speaker 2: as the interpreter for the child to the parent, Oh
Speaker 2: he said blah blah blah blah blah, and that's natural
Speaker 2: as a kid. But if that happens, it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: thank you, thank you for helping out. But let's hear
Speaker 2: from but you know, making it a very normal process.
Speaker 2: Let's hear what he has to say. And being inclusive
Speaker 2: to not leaving someone out because you think that they're
Speaker 2: not going to respond in time or they're just being
Speaker 2: passed over like they may not have something to say.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. What strategy do you think you can offer
Speaker 1: it for? How to to create an inclusive workspace for
Speaker 1: people who may be have a variety of differences of communication.
Speaker 2: Yeah, being accepted of everybody's communication style, including everyone in
Speaker 2: opportunities to present or speak or be a part of
Speaker 2: a team a presentation offering things I think about universal design,
Speaker 2: like what helps someone helps everyone? So can you use
Speaker 2: close captions when there is a video? How are you
Speaker 2: presenting information? Are you considering people that learn better auditorily
Speaker 2: and visually? Are we asking questions on how the staff
Speaker 2: are in the workplace, how people may get their information better,
Speaker 2: people having opportunities to process what you've presented. So if
Speaker 2: there is professional development, it's like how fast are you
Speaker 2: expecting to implement these strategies or new work processes and
Speaker 2: are you giving people support to making sure that they
Speaker 2: know how to implement that. So I always like to
Speaker 2: talk about just like the universal design, like the door
Speaker 2: that automatically opens that may help someone with a physical disability,
Speaker 2: really helps everyone. So when we think about the whole
Speaker 2: and just listening and asking those questions and making sure
Speaker 2: that individuals with disabilities are present in your workplace. So
Speaker 2: I do a lot of advocacy work with ableism and
Speaker 2: presentations with another colleague and also agencies for employment in
Speaker 2: the area that help people get employment. So thinking about
Speaker 2: things like I know the employment agencies do this when
Speaker 2: we present together. They talk about crafting a specialized interview,
Speaker 2: so making sure that people have time and the interview,
Speaker 2: you know, if you provide an an hour or how
Speaker 2: you present the information. Also giving the individuals the opportunity
Speaker 2: to do a day of work, so can they come
Speaker 2: and do a half day of work. So these are
Speaker 2: things I think about that we talk about when helping
Speaker 2: individuals with disabilities seek and get employment, but really are
Speaker 2: helpful for everyone. Like a job interview can be an hour,
Speaker 2: but what does that look like if someone were to
Speaker 2: do some work for half a day. I mean, they're
Speaker 2: going to show you more that what they can do
Speaker 2: than in within that hour and on their resume. So
Speaker 2: just making sure that you have these opportunities that are
Speaker 2: inclusive with COVID and using more technologies and flexibilities and schedules.
Speaker 2: But when we consider that for everyone, then it can benefit.
Speaker 2: But definitely looking at the accommodations and needs of individuals
Speaker 2: with disabilities. The same with standing desks. I remember you
Speaker 2: had to get an accommodation for a standard desk when
Speaker 2: I was in federal service. But now that's just like
Speaker 2: routine because we know that standing is better for us. Right,
Speaker 2: So it's those types of things that universal design that
Speaker 2: can help everyone.
Speaker 1: What kinds of accommodations do you want to make sure
Speaker 1: that college students are aware of, so any communication accommodations
Speaker 1: that they can use if they have a speech or
Speaker 1: language disorder.
Speaker 2: Yes, making sure that when you hit campus that you
Speaker 2: are going to the if it's the Office of Disabilities
Speaker 2: or whatever that office is called on campus that you
Speaker 2: are getting your accommodations, do not wait until you need them.
Speaker 2: And I say that because often what happens is students
Speaker 2: don't want to identify. Right it's a new environment and
Speaker 2: they just don't you know, they are making friends or
Speaker 2: they don't want to identify. But when you do that,
Speaker 2: it's on the record, and then they get into class
Speaker 2: situation and then they tell the teacher, oh why or
Speaker 2: the professor I need but I have this disability. I
Speaker 2: need accommodations. Well that's all find and good, but unless
Speaker 2: they're getting some instruction from that office, they're not going
Speaker 2: to be able to adhere to what you say. And
Speaker 2: then often what happens by the time you do decide
Speaker 2: you need it. If you go and your documentation is
Speaker 2: outside of a it used to be a three year period,
Speaker 2: then you may need a whole nother assessment. And now
Speaker 2: if you're away from home, you're in a different place,
Speaker 2: you're having to navigate that on top of getting the accommodation.
Speaker 2: So that's why I try to tell the students and
Speaker 2: advocate go to the office and get that letter or
Speaker 2: whatever that looks like, and make sure your teachers are informed.
Speaker 2: It's better to have it so you can use it
Speaker 2: when you need it instead of trying to go through
Speaker 2: the process as you're taking the test, or as you're
Speaker 2: falling behind, or whatever the case may be with your assignments.
Speaker 1: Ata Ellis, this has been so incredibly helpful. Can you
Speaker 1: share with us where can we find you? What is
Speaker 1: your website as well as any social media handles you'd
Speaker 1: like to share.
Speaker 2: My company is not on social media. I do have
Speaker 2: a website aurorasun Services dot com that's just about my
Speaker 2: private practice and consulting some of the type of the
Speaker 2: work I do. I'm on LinkedIn under Don Carrol Ellis.
Speaker 2: You'll see speech language pathologists. Also the Dream Center, which
Speaker 2: I'm the associate director. The Dream at Dreams Tha Center
Speaker 2: is on Instagram. They're also on Facebook and social media.
Speaker 2: So if you want to find out more about Dream.
Speaker 2: If there's any faculty, we support university programs at MSIs,
Speaker 2: HBCUs and tribal colleges that prepare personnel under IDA, so
Speaker 2: the Individuals with Disabilities Education Acts, so that's psychologists, social workers,
Speaker 2: speech language pathologists, occupational therapists, special led teachers. So if
Speaker 2: there's a faculty out there who wants to write a
Speaker 2: grand who's interested in finding out more about that. There's
Speaker 2: personnel shortages and especially shortages of persons of color in
Speaker 2: all of these fields. So and that's in the statue,
Speaker 2: which is why why we're still funded that we want
Speaker 2: to fill that gap of personnel shortages and also make
Speaker 2: sure that we're feeling those training personnel from underrepresentative groups.
Speaker 1: Will be sure to include all of that in the
Speaker 1: show notes so that people know how to reach out
Speaker 1: to you they're interested in learning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and another thing I would say, the American Speech
Speaker 2: Language and Hearing Association has lots of tools and resources
Speaker 2: for parents, and this is open to the community, not
Speaker 2: behind the member wall, but for parents that want to
Speaker 2: just know more about how my child hears and talks
Speaker 2: and those sorts of things. All of that is a
Speaker 2: available at ASHA dot org and you can research information
Speaker 2: about communication disorders across the lifespan.
Speaker 1: Perfect thank you for them. I'm sure lots of people
Speaker 1: will appreciate that resource. So one more question for you
Speaker 1: that's not super related to the topic, but still something
Speaker 1: we length to know. What's one piece of advice that
Speaker 1: you would give to your eighteen year old self.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, just really to embrace who I was becoming.
Speaker 2: There wasn't not a lot of people like me, and
Speaker 2: there still isn't in the field. Even though I learned
Speaker 2: how to sign at Bakersfield College when I was eighteen
Speaker 2: and then went to cal State Northridge where there's the
Speaker 2: National Center for the Death. There's a lot of a
Speaker 2: big population of deafness, which all that experience led to
Speaker 2: me being on faculty at Galadat. But just embrace who
Speaker 2: I was becoming and knowing that I belonged in those
Speaker 2: spaces where there were not people like me.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. I'm so glad Doctor Ellis was
Speaker 1: able to join us and share her expertise for this conversation.
Speaker 1: To learn more about her and her work, visit the
Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session
Speaker 1: four fifty three, and don't forget to text us episodes
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Speaker 1: for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content and much more.
Speaker 1: We can't wait to see you inside. This episode was
Speaker 1: produced by Elise Ellis, Inde Tubu and Tyree Rush. Editing
Speaker 1: was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
Speaker 1: joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing
Speaker 1: this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.