1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: This episode contains discussion of crimes involving sexual violence and murder. 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: It also deals with suicide. Listener discretion is advised. If 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: you or someone you know is having thoughts of suicide, 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: caller text nine to eight eight to reach the suicide 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: and Crisis lifeline. 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 2: This is part two of our two part series on 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 2: the murder of fifteen year old Danny Houchens. If you 8 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 2: haven't already, go back and listen to part one. It 9 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 2: tells the story of how investigators cracked the thirty year 10 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 2: old cold case and tried to bring a hunter and 11 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: BLM biologist named Paul Hutchinson to justice. But they never 12 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: got the chance to prosecute the case in court because 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 2: after their initial interview, Paul drove to the outskirts of 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 2: town and shot himself. Our story picks up there. Paul's 15 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: suicide was his final act of cowardice. He saved himself 16 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: the pain of facing his family, friends, and co workers, 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: not to mention Danny's family. Meanwhile, his actions introduced a 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: whole new level of pain and confusion to those who 19 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: knew him and cared about him. Those people have been 20 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: left to grapple with questions without the opportunity to ever 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 2: have them answered. Paul's immediate family declined to speak with 22 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: us for this podcast, but his nephew, Zach Hutchinson reached out. 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: Zach is the son of Paul's older brother, and he 24 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 2: knew Paul before he left. 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 3: For the Marine Corps. 26 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: That's the detail of Paul's life we'll get to in 27 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: a few minutes. Zach says he had many fond memories 28 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: of hunting and fishing with his uncle, and he never 29 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 2: saw the side of Paul that could rape and murder 30 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 2: a fifteen year old. 31 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 4: It's been really difficult because it's kind of like when 32 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 4: you find out your hero is a fraud. 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 5: This guy was like one. 34 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 4: Of the most pure versions of a role model that 35 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 4: I had growing up my whole life, and then when 36 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 4: this came out, I just felt like it was all 37 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 4: a fraud. It's not like something where I can just 38 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 4: say there's like an exac feel And I mean, I've 39 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 4: been angry and I've been sad, and I've had a 40 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 4: lot of remorse for what I have been or why 41 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 4: this happened, and like, I've thought a lot about all 42 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 4: of this stuff, and I have a lot of empathy 43 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 4: for the victim's family and everything they went through. I mean, 44 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 4: it's terrible to have our name associated with such a 45 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 4: atrocity like this. 46 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: That association has made it difficult for Paul's family, especially 47 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: his wife and kids who live in Dylan. I've been 48 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 2: told that their house has been vandalized and that threats 49 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,119 Speaker 2: forced them to call off Paul's memorial service. Zach said 50 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: he hasn't heard from them since the news came out 51 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: about Danny, but he understands the reaction from their community. 52 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 6: I think it's a really natural thing for the public 53 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 6: in general to need somebody to blame that still here 54 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 6: so they get all of the anger and frustration that 55 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 6: should have been directed towards Paul, and instead his kids 56 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 6: and wife have to take. 57 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 5: The brunch of all that. 58 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: Christy Hutchinson, Paul's wife, hasn't spoken to the media, but 59 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: she did leave a note on what used to be 60 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: Paul's obituary on the funeral home website. She said, quote, 61 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: we are sly heartbroken to learn this news, and our 62 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: hearts go out to the Houchen's family. It is good 63 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 2: to know that they will at last be able to 64 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 2: find the closure that they deserve. Our own family was 65 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 2: already reeling from dealing with Paul's suicide in twenty four 66 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 2: years of marriage. There was never any hint that something 67 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 2: like this could be lurking in the background. Paul was 68 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: an exceptional husband and father. This latest news makes our 69 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: grieving so much more complicated. Of course, his family weren't 70 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: the only people to be confused and disturbed by Paul's actions. 71 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: We heard from many people who had hunted with Paul 72 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: from all across the country. Some had hunted with him 73 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: for years, while others had only gone out with him 74 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: a few times. Many remembered that he was always happy 75 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: to share hunting tips and tactics, and he was active 76 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: on forums like hunt talk and various Facebook groups. 77 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 3: One hunter named. 78 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 2: Bryant Jones were called bumping into Paul while hunting elk 79 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: in a remote area he thought no one else knew about. 80 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: Bryant invited him to share his campsite, but Paul said 81 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 2: he wanted to hunt alone. Bryant lives in the same 82 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: county as Paul, and they saw each other again a 83 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: few times after that. He said in an email quote, 84 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: we always seem to share a commonality of elk and hunting, 85 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: a sense of respect, knowing he had the same drive 86 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 2: and passion for ELK that I did. And after all, 87 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: we shared a secret hunting spot that neither of us 88 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 2: were willing to share with just anyone. I guess you 89 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 2: could say Paul was good at keeping secrets. Another hunter 90 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: named Heath Smith described a kind of interaction we heard 91 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: a lot during the course of this investigation. Heath met 92 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: Paul on a Facebook group dedicated to turkey hunting. 93 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 5: I asked a question about some states, and he was 94 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 5: super helpful. He reached out and said, Hey, you know, 95 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 5: I hunt all over the country. I'm trying to kill 96 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 5: a turkey in all forty nine states. I do hunt swaps. 97 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 5: You know, where are you going? How can I help you? 98 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 5: You know, I'll point you in the right direction. Basically 99 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 5: super nice. 100 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: Paul agreed to take Heath turkey hunting in Montana in 101 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 2: the hopes that Heath would return the favor and host 102 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: Paul in his home state of Illinois. Heith and his 103 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: cousin traveled up to Montana in twenty twenty two, and 104 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: they planned to hunt along the Yellowstone. At this point, 105 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 2: he'd been messaging with Paul and calling him on the 106 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 2: phone for almost two years, which is why he felt 107 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: comfortable making this joke that in retrospect is not funny. 108 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 5: I actually remember on making a joke when we got 109 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 5: in the truck, kind of hey, Paul, where our families 110 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 5: are worried about us? You know, they think you might 111 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 5: be a killer. Kind of joke. We all had a 112 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 5: laugh and down the road we went. 113 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 2: Heith says they had a great time. They killed a 114 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: few turkeys and agreed to host Paul in Illinois. The 115 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: next spring, Heath got a camper from his cousin and 116 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 2: they parked it in Heath's driveway for Paul to sleep in. 117 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: I asked, Heith, what you're probably thinking looking back? Did 118 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: Paul say or do anything that he now sees in 119 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 2: a new light? He said their interactions with him were 120 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: always positive, but at the same time I. 121 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 5: Could see there being another side of him, Like he 122 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 5: was definitely an awkward dude. Like I said, my wife 123 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 5: has the Spidey sense, you know, when he left, she 124 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 5: definitely had the hebegbis And maybe we just were kind 125 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 5: of blind to it. I don't know. 126 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: This description of Paul as awkward or off putting was 127 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: echoed by another hunter from the mid Atlantic region who 128 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 2: swapped waterfowling trips with Paul. In the early twenty tens, 129 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: he traveled up to Great Falls, Montana, and Paul was 130 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: supposed to pick him up from the airport, but he 131 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: never showed. Paul eventually showed up and they hunted with 132 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 2: him for a few days, but then he vanished. This 133 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: hunter says they woke up one morning and Paul wasn't 134 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: in his hotel room and his truck was gone. They 135 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,799 Speaker 2: tried calling him, but he never responded. This hunter also 136 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 2: commented that to him, Paul's anti social behavior was noticeable 137 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: enough that he wasn't surprised to learn about his crimes. 138 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: Of course, not all socially awkward people are murderers, and 139 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 2: everyone has a bad day or a bad week, but 140 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 2: the fact that Paul traveled so much to hunt and 141 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: had so much opportunity to be alone with people in 142 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: the wilderness is obviously concerning. We also heard from several 143 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: of Paul's coworkers who spent time with them as part 144 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: of their work for the Bureau of Land Management. These 145 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: individuals would go out with Paul, often by themselves, into 146 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: the mountains around Dylan to do fish population surveys. Using 147 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: a method called electro shocking, where fish are stunned by 148 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: an electric current and then can be collected in a net. 149 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: When Tom Elfmott heard about this, he had a recommendation 150 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 2: for BLM law enforcement. 151 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 7: I recommended to the BLM law enforcement that they go 152 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 7: back and they interview female interns who worked for the 153 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 7: BLM in the summers with him for the least the 154 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 7: past five years to see if there was anything appropriate 155 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 7: inappropriate that went on that he might have done, like hey, look, 156 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 7: if you really want a full time job with BLM. 157 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 3: Know we're out here in the middle of the woods, 158 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 3: so you gotta do this or you gotta do that. 159 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: We spoke with two of these young women, both of 160 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: whom you heard in the intro to Part one. Jordan 161 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 2: Walker told us she went into the mountains with Paul 162 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 2: and had a terrible time. She said he was impatient 163 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: as she struggled to catch the electro shocked fish, and 164 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: the experience made her decide to pursue something other than 165 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: fishery science. 166 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 8: So when I went out there, I didn't know what 167 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 8: I was doing, and he was We were shocking fish 168 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 8: that day, and I would have to grab him and 169 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 8: put them in a bucket. Well, I couldn't see all 170 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 8: those little one inch brown ones in the muddy water, 171 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 8: and so he was getting super super upset with me. 172 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 2: Nothing else happened that day, but Jordan was understandably upset 173 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: when she heard about what Paul had done. 174 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 8: I was at a little spooked, for sure. I guess 175 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 8: I've just kind of looked back on the day and 176 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 8: I was like, man, anything could have happened to me. 177 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 8: I had no clue where where I was or whatever, 178 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 8: and I'm sure most people didn't know exactly where we were. 179 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 8: It would have been easy to get away with anything. Really. 180 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: Jordan wasn't the only newbie to go into the mountains 181 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 2: with Paul that summer. She told me that Paul's usual 182 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 2: partner had left the BLM unexpectedly, and so Paul needed 183 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 2: people to come out and help him. According to Jordan, 184 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 2: there was some discussion in the BLM office about why 185 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 2: this man left. 186 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 8: I know some people were wondering what happened to the 187 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 8: person that worked with him for ten years. Paul was 188 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 8: saying some stuff afterwards, like you can't tell people anything, 189 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 8: and they were just kind of wondering what happened with 190 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 8: him because I know you'd like that job. 191 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: We reached out to Paul's work partner, but he declined 192 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: to be interviewed for this podcast. This partner never came 193 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: up in Tom's interview with Paul, but he did mention 194 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 2: having to work with new seasonal employees, so. 195 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 3: You train him up. 196 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 5: Is he kind of doing an internship? 197 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 8: Is that what it is? 198 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 9: No seasonal technician? 199 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: Well, they break him in just for certain times of 200 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 3: the year or something. 201 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 9: Yeah, we got for the summer and there's a young 202 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 9: lady working with him and neither No, they didn't know 203 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 9: what they're doing. 204 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, Jordan was eighteen years old this summer. She spent 205 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 2: that day with Paul. Another young woman who spoke to 206 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 2: us anonymously due to fear of professional repercussions, described a 207 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 2: much better experience with a fifty five year old man. 208 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: This woman, who will call Molly, had never been electro fishing, 209 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: but she says Paul was pleasant to be around, if 210 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: a little reserved. 211 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 10: He had some embarrassing stories about my supervisor to tell, 212 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 10: just as far as like teaching him how to snow 213 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 10: machine and all that good stuff. And then the thing 214 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 10: that we actually were able to talk about a whole 215 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 10: bunch was his family and his kids. 216 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: The day was uneventful otherwise, and Molly was grateful to 217 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: put electro fishing experience on her resume, but her good 218 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: day with Paul made what he did to Danny even 219 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: more confusing. 220 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 10: So there were two like really hard things for me initially, 221 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 10: the first being how do I interact with coworkers in 222 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 10: the future that I don't know very well or even 223 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 10: that I do know very well. Right, in these jobs, 224 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 10: you go out for sometimes a week or so at 225 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 10: a time in places with no service. You have to 226 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 10: trust the people that you're out there with. So like 227 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 10: coming to terms with like not being afraid was something 228 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 10: that I had to go through. And then the other 229 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 10: thing that I had to think about a lot was 230 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 10: like this idea of how do the actions of your 231 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,239 Speaker 10: mentors or the people who are teaching you things change 232 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 10: your experience or does it change your experience? 233 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 5: Right? 234 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 10: So, like Paul is the one who taught me how 235 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 10: to electrofish, and that was kind of huge for getting 236 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 10: me to where I am today. And so just like, yeah, 237 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 10: wrestling with that question of like does that change where 238 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 10: I am? And like the path that got me here, 239 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 10: you know, we. 240 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: Spoke with unofficial with knowledge of Paul's case, who was 241 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: also granted anonymity due to professional repercussions of talking to us. 242 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: This person told us that there were a number of 243 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: seasonal employees who worked with Paul but then never returned 244 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: to the BLM. This person said the reason those seasonal 245 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: workers didn't return is because they were quote creeped out 246 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: by him. At the same time, Paul's coworkers never formally 247 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 2: complained about him to the BLM. This could be exonerating 248 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: or it could be suspicious. It's easy to lodge a 249 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: complaint with the agency, so officials were surprised to learn 250 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: that no one had ever complained about Paul. We asked 251 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: the BLM to confirm these details about Paul's personnel record, 252 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 2: but the agency declined to comment. After the break, we 253 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 2: look to the future. Stephanie tells me about her fight 254 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: to improve Montana's law enforcement system. We hear from a 255 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 2: forensic psychologist about whether Paul could have committed other crimes, 256 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: and Steve Vernella gives us an inside look at how 257 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: this story has impact did hunters and anglers in the 258 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 2: Boseman area. 259 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 3: That's next on Blood Trails Part six. 260 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: Moving forward, It's been a little over a year since 261 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: Paul killed himself on July twenty fourth, twenty twenty four, 262 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 2: but this story is far from over. Stephanie has launched 263 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: an advocacy campaign to address what she describes as serious 264 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: flaws in Montana's law enforcement capabilities. Here she is during 265 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: a press conference shortly after the resolution. 266 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 3: Of the case. 267 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 11: Call and write to your legislators. Demand adequate funding for 268 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 11: the Montana State Crime Lab. Demand a news system of 269 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 11: peer review for law enforcement when a violent rape and 270 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 11: murder happens in their jurisdiction. Demand a centralized database of 271 00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 11: cold cases in this state. We must demand better for 272 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 11: victims of sexual assault and murder in Montana. 273 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 12: Thank you. 274 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: The Montana State Legislature has so far declined to increase 275 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: funding for law enforcement or institute a cold case database, 276 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: but Stephanie is currently raising money to found a volunteer 277 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 2: case review committee with the Montana Peace Officers Association, and 278 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 2: she's gaining traction. 279 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 11: If victims families like me don't fight for victims and 280 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 11: families like who's going to I'll see through the accountability 281 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 11: and justice for my sister. But the next phase for 282 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 11: me is really figuring out how I try to make 283 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 11: it better. 284 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: And Stephanie says she's fighting for justice for her sister. 285 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: She doesn't just mean that figuratively on behalf of her 286 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: sister's estate. She told me she plans to file a 287 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: wrongful death lawsuit against Paul Hutchinson's estate. 288 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 11: What is really important to me going forward is that 289 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 11: other rapists and murderers don't think that the pathway of 290 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 11: taking your own life is a viable pathway to dodge 291 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 11: accountability for your violence and your crimes. So I'm going 292 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 11: to see that accountability through. 293 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: I asked Stephanie what she would say to someone who 294 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 2: would question the justice of suing the Hutchinson family when 295 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: they're not the ones who committed the crime. 296 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 11: I have certainly had people approach me with the sentiment 297 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 11: that Paul Hutchinson's family is a victim are victims too 298 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 11: of what he did. And while that may be true, 299 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 11: the victimization of Paul Hutchinson's family is not my responsibility. 300 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 11: The victimization of the Hutchins family and of Danielle Houchins 301 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 11: is my responsibility. And at the end of the day, 302 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 11: victims who have birthdays are less of a victim than 303 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,119 Speaker 11: victims who don't. 304 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 2: Zach Hutchinson, Paul's nephew, does believe Paul's wife and kids 305 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: were victims. At the same time, he understands why Stephanie 306 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: and Danny's family filed the lawsuit. 307 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 4: I think that's a perfectly natural response to them, because again, 308 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 4: it's really difficult to have anger towards somebody that's dead. 309 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 4: It's really difficult to have accountability to somebody who is unaccountable. 310 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 5: So I mean, I think that that's a very natural reaction. 311 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: Of course, the biggest question, the one that we may 312 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: never have a good answer to, is whether Danny was 313 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: Paul Hutchinson's only victim. Galaton County Sheriff Dan Springer told 314 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: me that they've submitted Paul's case profile to local, state, 315 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 2: and federal databases. If they find Paul's DNA on another 316 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: victim or law enforcement in another jurisdiction see similarities between 317 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 2: Danny's death and other cold cases, they'll be able to 318 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: flag it. So far as far as Sheriff Springer knows, 319 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: there haven't been any connections made to other victims, but 320 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean they aren't out there to help me 321 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: shed more light on this question, I reached out to 322 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 2: doctor Jeff Kalshevsky. Doctor Koallshevski is a forensic psychologist with 323 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: a doctorate from the University of Iowa. He's basically spent 324 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 2: his entire career talking to criminals. He worked in prisons 325 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 2: for a long time doing psychological evaluations, and he spent 326 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 2: the last quarter century in private practice doing the same 327 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: thing in other criminal cases. If you've committed a crime 328 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 2: and want to plead insanity, he's the guy you have 329 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: to convince that you're not competent to stand trial. I 330 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: asked doctor Kolshewsky whether, in his professional opinion, someone could 331 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 2: rape and murder a fifteen year old girl and then 332 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: go on to live a crime free life. 333 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 12: That's a tough question, because, let me tell you, I've 334 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 12: talked to people who've done terrible, egregious things like this. 335 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 12: Kaikark And said they always fantasized about doing it, and 336 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 12: then they did it, and the fantasy did not meet 337 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 12: up to the reality, and then it became a proverbial 338 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 12: skeleton in their closet, and then they were caught many 339 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 12: years later. I think we don't know enough about the 340 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 12: case hat to really go in either direction. 341 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: Doctor Kolshevski never interviewed Paul and hasn't seen the case file, 342 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 2: so he didn't want to speak definitively on this question. However, 343 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 2: he does host a YouTube channel where he offers his 344 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: opinion on high profile cases and criminals, and he was 345 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 2: willing to give me his general thoughts based on his 346 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: decades of experience interviewing inmates. One of the things that 347 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 2: stood out to doctor Kolshewski was Paul's military career when 348 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 2: he served for four years in the Marine Corps. 349 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 12: I'd really be interested in what happened during his military career, 350 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 12: you know, was there anything there were there any misconducts 351 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 12: where was he stationed to Because I've had some cases where, unfortunately, 352 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 12: if someone has a twisted sexual paraphilia or perversion, I've 353 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 12: had cases where these guys were in the military and 354 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 12: they were in third world countries where they could engage 355 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,479 Speaker 12: in some of that stuff without being caught, and then 356 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 12: once they're out of the military, that paraphilia is strong 357 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 12: and they can't really exercise that as easily here as 358 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 12: they could say in a third world country. If that 359 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 12: appetite is wetted and that parophilia becomes strong. Unfortunately, sometimes 360 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 12: it's just a matter of time before it comes out, 361 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 12: and it could be an opportunity like what happened in 362 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 12: this case. 363 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 2: I haven't seen Paul's military record myself, but Tom Elfmont 364 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: was able to secure a copy. He told me Paul 365 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: did basic training at Camp Le June in North Carolina 366 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 2: and was stationed for a time in Alaska. Paul was 367 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 2: in the infantry, but he never served in combat and 368 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 2: didn't get into any official trouble. Tom asked Paul about 369 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: his military service during that initial interview. 370 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 7: You know, I liked it. 371 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 9: If they would have given me what I wanted, I 372 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 9: would have relisted. I had I had fun. You look back, 373 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 9: did you either want to deserve? 374 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 5: Yeah? 375 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 8: I did. 376 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 9: You know, so you look back at boot camp, and 377 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 9: it's one thing when you look back, that stuff was funny. 378 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 2: Yeah when you were there. 379 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: What you want to do? 380 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 9: I wanted to I wanted to go Security Forces, and 381 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 9: you got to pick. There's a hardship and then there's 382 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 9: what they called the gravy tour. I actually wanted two 383 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 9: of the hardships I wanted. I spent six months in 384 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 9: South America. I want to go back to South America. Yeah, 385 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 9: they wouldn't do it. 386 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: We don't know why Paul was in South America or 387 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 2: why he wanted to go back. We also can't say 388 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 2: for sure whether or not Paul's time in the military 389 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 2: had anything to do with his subsequent behavior. Zach Hutchinson 390 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 2: believes his uncle's time in the Marines may have changed him, 391 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: but right now we don't have any direct evidence that 392 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 2: suggests it did. Doctor Karlschewski was also interested in Paul's 393 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: response to being confronted, probably for the very first time, 394 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 2: about Danny. 395 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 12: One thing that was a bit surprising for me was 396 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 12: a suicide, particularly with a guy who is a skilled 397 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 12: and experienced outdoorsman. He could have tried to sort of 398 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 12: make a run for it, and just that how upset 399 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 12: he became after he saw that photo. If he was 400 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 12: a serial killer, this is sort of odd to say 401 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 12: he wasn't really that good at it and didn't have 402 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 12: much of a stomach for it, because a lot of 403 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 12: times with these experienced serial killers, when they're presented and 404 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 12: faced with the evidence or information about the victim, they 405 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 12: don't have an emotional reaction like that. 406 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 2: To say that Paul may not have been a serial 407 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 2: killer is hardly exonerating, and doctor Kelshewsky pointed out that 408 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: there have been serial killers who aren't psychopaths who do 409 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: feel empathy. It's also true that no one really knows 410 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: why Paul committed suicide. He may have done it because 411 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: he was upset about Danny, or he may have had 412 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: another reason. But if we're trying to figure out whether 413 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 2: Paul victimized other people, his decision to take his own 414 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 2: life is another factor that doctor kel Schevsky would consider. 415 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 2: I also pose this question to Tom, who knows Paul's 416 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 2: file better than anyone. 417 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 7: I would think that the propensity would be for him 418 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 7: to have done other things. But he may have just 419 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 7: committed rapes. He may have just done in decent exposure 420 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 7: where he's in the woods and some woman's walking her 421 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 7: dog along a canal or something. He could be responsible 422 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 7: for other sex crimes, but the murder was probably because 423 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 7: he panicked and Danny was trying to get away and 424 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 7: he killed her. 425 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 2: Tom shared two pieces of information from his investigation that 426 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: led him to believe in Paul's propensity towards sexual crimes. 427 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 7: One of the telling things was I reached out to 428 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 7: his fiance who lived with him in nineteen ninety six, 429 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 7: and I asked her, did you ever recognize or see 430 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 7: any abnormal or unus usual sexual behaviors. 431 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 3: On his part? 432 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 7: And she declined to answer, and then just never called 433 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 7: me back after that. And the other thing was after 434 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 7: his funeral, his sister called his wife and it was 435 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 7: then reported to the sheriff and Dylan that he made 436 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 7: an advance on their ten year old his ten year 437 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 7: old niece years and years ago in an attempt to 438 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 7: molest her, and they never reported it to the police. 439 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 7: So it's still a mystery. But you know, if I 440 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 7: got a phone call today from a small sheriff's department 441 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 7: in East Texas and they said, you know, we went 442 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 7: through our files and in nineteen ninety five or eight 443 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 7: or two thousand and one, we found a woman who 444 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 7: was raped along a river, and we checked and we 445 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 7: found out Paul had a turkey hunting license in tech 446 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 7: just at that time. 447 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 3: It wouldn't surprise me. 448 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: At all if there are any other victims out there. 449 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 2: Doctor Kolshewski believes the fact pattern in those cases will 450 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 2: be similar to what happened along the Gallatin River. 451 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 12: If the person is a serial killer and they develop 452 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 12: a career as a killer. They tend to use similar methods. 453 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 12: It may change over time, but similar methods. They tend 454 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 12: to pick similar victims. They tend to pick similar settings. 455 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 12: They do become a bit creatures a habit because one 456 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 12: of the reinforcements they get from this act is kind 457 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 12: of carrying out those habits and rituals. So looking for 458 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 12: those kind of things will be important. 459 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: Part seven Close to home For us here at meat Eater, 460 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: this story hits a little too close for comfort. The 461 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: crime took place just outside of Bozeman, at a fishing 462 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: access many of us have been to. The perpetrator worked 463 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: for the Bureau of Land Manage, an agency that's familiar 464 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: to many of us and whose employees we know and 465 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 2: interact with all the time. When we posted on Instagram 466 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: that we were looking to speak with people who knew Paul, 467 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 2: we received dozens of emails. We all run in the 468 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 2: same circles, and so we're trying to make sense of 469 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: this along with other members of our community. 470 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 13: It just, all of a sudden just felt very central 471 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 13: to our town, central to our communities, central to hunters 472 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 13: and anglers that live in this area. 473 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: That's me Eater founder Steve Ranella. He's the one who 474 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: first told me about this case and suggested that we 475 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 2: cover it in an episode of Blood Trails. I sat 476 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: down with him to talk about why the story jumped 477 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: out of him and why he felt like we had 478 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 2: a duty to try to understand and process what happened. 479 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 13: Me and Paul, you know, we came I came from Michigan, 480 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 13: he came from New England. We moved to mont at 481 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 13: the same time. We're both interested in hunting, We're both 482 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 13: interested in fishing, We're both fur trappers, hung out in 483 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,719 Speaker 13: the same places. I've been to this river access a 484 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 13: ton of times where the murder took place. There are 485 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 13: a ton of times I know it very well. I 486 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 13: know the town very well, and so in that way, 487 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 13: you know, there was like an alignment, like I could 488 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 13: easily picture the enthusiasm of an outdoorsman moving out west 489 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 13: at that time and what that felt like. So I 490 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 13: understood it. Even though we didn't know each other, we 491 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 13: knew the same people. He worked for an agency where 492 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 13: I have friends that work at the agency that I 493 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 13: have professional collaborations with the agency. He worked on fisheries 494 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 13: projects that it sounds so weird to say he worked 495 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 13: on fisheries projects that I like benefited from I probably 496 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,679 Speaker 13: read and digested research he did. So it was like 497 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 13: it was a very much a fishing story. It was 498 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 13: an outdoor story. It was about a place that you know, 499 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 13: I knew well, people I knew well, and so it 500 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 13: felt to me like very like we had every right 501 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 13: almost that we had a obligation to talk about this story. 502 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and hunting, I mean turned out to be a 503 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: really big part of the story that I don't think 504 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: a lot of other outlets really touched on his travel 505 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: for hunting and the concern that that, you know, brought 506 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 2: to mind for investigators. He's out there in the woods 507 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: a lot alone in remote areas in other states. You 508 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 2: mentioned the fishing access site. Could you describe that site. 509 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 3: A little bit? We didn't. 510 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 2: We didn't get into that a lot in the podcast. 511 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,479 Speaker 2: I mean, for me, it's a little surprising because this 512 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: happened apparently around like noon, like maybe late morning, early afternoon, 513 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 2: and if you're not from there or you've never been there, 514 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 2: I think it's maybe unusual or surprising that that could 515 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 2: have happened in the middle of the day. Presumably there 516 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 2: was there was noise, there was screaming. Could you just 517 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 2: sort of paint a picture of what that area is like. 518 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 13: Yeah, First off, point out that that area, like most 519 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 13: areas in the Gallton Valley area, has changed tremendously over 520 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 13: the years. I would have first been at that access 521 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 13: site around the same time, you know, I would have 522 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 13: started hanging out there. I moved to Bozeman in the 523 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 13: year two thousand. I was living in Missoula starting in 524 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 13: nineteen ninety six. But you know, there's quite a number 525 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 13: of river access sites they're in. They tend to be 526 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 13: around here in these big valley bottoms, you know, braided 527 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 13: river channels. 528 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 3: Lots of cottonwood, lots of brush. 529 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 13: So even though they are around habitations, they might be 530 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 13: very close to busy roads, there's still a lot of 531 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 13: solitude around them. The other thing about river access sites 532 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 13: is Montana has great stream access law, So as long 533 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 13: as you can access the river legally, you can go 534 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 13: anywhere as long as you stay within the high water mark. 535 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 13: So one of the great draws of river access sites 536 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 13: is it gives you a legal point of entry into 537 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 13: a river and then you can wade up and down 538 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 13: wherever you want to go. If you pull into a 539 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 13: river access site and you see a half dozen cars there, 540 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,719 Speaker 13: you might then use that river access site and go 541 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 13: fish for an hour, not run into the people, because 542 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 13: people disperse round there's a lot of you know, there's 543 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 13: privacy in solitude to be had there. And even though 544 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 13: it is near town, it's closer to Belgrade, Montana than 545 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 13: Bozeman proper. It's totally plausible that midday a couple of 546 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 13: people could be there and you could have a crime 547 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 13: like this play out over fifteen minutes or twenty minutes 548 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 13: or even an hour and have no witnesses to it, 549 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 13: even though you probably listening to cars driving by on 550 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 13: the bridge, And that would still be true today of 551 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 13: most of the river access sites around here. 552 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 3: There's no part of that that's surprising at all. 553 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: As someone who you know, you go out, but you 554 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 2: also go out with your family, with your wife and 555 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 2: your kids. How do you deal with that possibility of 556 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: someone being out there who doesn't have a criminal record, 557 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: isn't a wanted killer, right, just stumbling upon the wrong 558 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: person at the wrong time, with those vulnerable people that 559 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: you might be with. 560 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 13: Man, even knowing this, it's not a thing we pay 561 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 13: attention to as parents. We talk a lot about water safety. 562 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 13: We taught our kids a swim a young age. We 563 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 13: kind of brush up now and then in certain areas. 564 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 13: We brush up now and then on the best protocol 565 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 13: around in Grizzly Bear country. Spatial awareness, taking no to landmarks, 566 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 13: to understand where you're at, paying attention. 567 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 3: To what's going on. 568 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 13: But we never ever talk about being attacked by a 569 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 13: human being. And I have a lot of people who 570 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 13: live with kids and raise families around here, and I'm 571 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 13: telling you, in any conversations I have, it doesn't come up. Yeah, 572 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 13: it doesn't come up. 573 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 5: Yeah. 574 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 13: You know, people might joke right like, oh, you know, 575 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 13: a guy in a van by the river kind of joke. 576 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 13: But no, no, I would say in this community, like, 577 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 13: being attacked by a human being is not a thing 578 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,479 Speaker 13: that takes up a lot of psychological space. 579 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 3: But that's again, that's for me. 580 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 13: If you're if I was a woman in my teens 581 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 13: or twenties hanging out and I like to go to 582 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 13: river access sites by myself off the fish. To be 583 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 13: honest with you, like I can't get in. I don't 584 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 13: know what that experience is like, but I would think 585 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 13: that you'd get a very different answer from them. 586 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I'm sure everyone in the Belgrade area was 587 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: terrified in the months and years after this happened. I mean, 588 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 2: a girl was murdered, they didn't find the killer. Is 589 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: he still out there? Will he do this again? Is 590 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 2: it safe to be outside by yourself? It's funny to 591 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: terrorize the public and then go work for an agency 592 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: that's supposed to help facilitate outdoor recreation. You know, it's 593 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 2: more than a little ironic. I want to transition from 594 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: the story itself to a little inside baseball on how 595 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 2: we reported this case. One of the reasons we were 596 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 2: able to connect with so many people who knew Paul 597 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: is because you posted about it on your Instagram. Both 598 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 2: of us had the opportunity to speak with a lot 599 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 2: of people, many of whom eventually decided they didn't want 600 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: to participate. What was your experience like speaking with some 601 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 2: of those individuals. 602 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 13: Right when I graduated from high school, I had jury 603 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 13: duty in Mousketon County, Michigan, and I remember it was 604 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 13: a drug trial with a crack cocaine dealer and we 605 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 13: came back with a guilty verdict, And at that time, 606 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 13: that was a life sentence for the guy, and they 607 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 13: hauled the defendant away and the judge, I remember. 608 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 3: The guy's name was Mike Cobbs. Judge Mike Cobbs. 609 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 13: He asked all of us jurors to stay, and he 610 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 13: said he wanted to speak with us. And then he 611 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 13: went and told us all these all the non admissible evidence, 612 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 13: so all the things they couldn't bring up in trial 613 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 13: because of double jeopardy, just that this whole bunch of 614 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 13: sordid details about the defendant. His point was, if you 615 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 13: ever feel bad about what you did sending him to jail, 616 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 13: I want you to consider these things. I want you 617 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 13: to know the truth of these things that we couldn't 618 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 13: present in the trial. And I thought about that often 619 00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 13: when we were looking at this story here, because man 620 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 13: Jordan talked to I talked to a number of people 621 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 13: who knew Paul who didn't want us to share any information. 622 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 13: People would decline to speak, and oftentimes people would speak 623 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 13: and then tell you all these details but say, but 624 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 13: I don't want you to share that, like they don't 625 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,959 Speaker 13: want investigators to know, they don't want the family to know. 626 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: Whatever. 627 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 13: They would tell you to clear their conscious of things. 628 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 13: But then say you couldn't share it, and then putting 629 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 13: a project like this together, it gets frustrating because there 630 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 13: are details that we know about Paul that would illuminate 631 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 13: this or shed light on this we're not able to 632 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 13: put out there. That's frustrating. You know, you want to 633 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 13: be like the judge who just is able to lay 634 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 13: it all out, but you're prevented to out of needing 635 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 13: to honor anonymity. 636 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, in a trial, they have rules about what's admissible, 637 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: what's not admissible, what can they talk about, what can 638 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 2: they not And when you're reporting a story, you also 639 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 2: have rules. If people say something to you and then 640 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: say I don't want you to report that, and then 641 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 2: you go and report it, you know, there can be 642 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 2: some pretty negative consequences. So we have to abide by 643 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: some of those rules, and sometimes it can be a 644 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 2: little frustrating. And you know, some of the people, like 645 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 2: you heard, you know you've heard in the episode, they 646 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 2: wanted to talk to us, but only anonymously. And sometimes 647 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: it sort of makes sense, like the they work in 648 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 2: a similar field, they worry about professional repercussions. Some people, 649 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: it seemed like, just didn't want their name associated with 650 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 2: this at all. Some people's reasons are a bit more selfish, 651 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: I think, and we also ran into that. 652 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 3: As we explored the story. 653 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 13: One of the things I kept coming back to again 654 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 13: and again in my mind, this individual Paul, he loved 655 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 13: a lot of the things I love. I love to 656 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 13: hunt turkeys. Here's this guy, he loved to hunt turkeys. 657 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 13: I like trap and he liked trapping. I love to 658 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 13: hunt man. I like listening to El Bugle. I like 659 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 13: all this right and too. But I always wonder, even 660 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 13: though I understand the joy of those things, I kept wondering, like, 661 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 13: how could someone ever find or retain joy in those 662 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 13: things knowing what they had done after he'd done it, 663 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 13: having done what he did, after he did it, the 664 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 13: only suitable thing to do is what he ultimately did, 665 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 13: which was to kill himself. But the fact that you 666 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 13: could live all those years. 667 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:25,479 Speaker 3: And like. 668 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 13: Take pictures of yourself hunting turkeys and enjoy that kind 669 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 13: of stuff, Like, how like what kind of depravity is 670 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 13: in somebody that they could find joy in anything in 671 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 13: life knowing that you had just out of some kind 672 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,320 Speaker 13: of blind rage or blind lust, like killed a teenage 673 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 13: girl and walked away from her dead body it's it's 674 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 13: like such an obvious thing to wonder, but I kept warning, like, 675 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 13: what is in a person that they can then enjoy 676 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 13: their life? 677 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and not just want to end it? 678 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, or enjoy their kids have kids that are about 679 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 2: that age. And that's one of the things that the 680 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 2: investigators in their interview with Paul really kind of hammered 681 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: him on that you have a daughter, right, how would 682 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,479 Speaker 2: you feel if this happened to her? And I don't 683 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,919 Speaker 2: know if that's what drove him to do what he did, 684 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 2: but it's hard to imagine that didn't have any effect. 685 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 2: But as you say, he lived his whole life with that. 686 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 2: I don't you know, why would it have an effect? 687 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 9: Right? 688 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 5: Then? 689 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:38,280 Speaker 3: Who knows? 690 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 5: No? 691 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 3: Who knows? 692 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 2: It seems fitting to end this episode with a question. 693 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: This case brought much needed closure to the Houchin's family. 694 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 2: They finally figured out who killed their daughter and sister, 695 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 2: and the killer was, in some measure brought to justice. 696 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 2: But we'll never know why Paul did what he did 697 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 2: or what he was thinking and feeling in the years 698 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 2: after he murdered Danny. We can't get inside his head, 699 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: not that we'd really want to, but the person he 700 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:12,240 Speaker 2: presented to the world was inconsistent. Some people we spoke 701 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 2: with said they weren't surprised, they knew there was something 702 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 2: off about that guy. Others really liked him and said 703 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 2: they were shocked by what he'd done. But it's this 704 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 2: inconsistency that makes him ordinary, and in that way all 705 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 2: the more terrifying. 706 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 3: He wasn't a villain from a superhero movie. 707 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 2: With an evil laugh and an evil eye. And he 708 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 2: wasn't a genius con man who fooled everyone with his 709 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 2: charming smile and winning ways. He was just a dude, 710 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 2: a dude he might meet at the store or your 711 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 2: kid's soccer game, strike up a friendship, and go hunting with. 712 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 3: We can't suspect everyone. 713 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 2: We don't know of horrible crimes, but Paul's story is 714 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 2: a reminder that you never really know what kind of 715 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 2: monster might be lurking just below the surface. 716 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 3: Yes, thanks for listening to this episode of Blood Trails. 717 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 2: If you'd like to see images related to this case, 718 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 2: including images of Danny and hunting photos of Paul, head 719 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 2: over to the meeater dot com slash blood Trails and 720 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 2: click on the case file for this episode. If you 721 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: have a tip, about this case or another case you 722 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 2: think we should cover. Send us an email at blood 723 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 2: Trails at the meeteater dot com. That's b l o 724 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 2: O D t R a I L S at the 725 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 2: meeater dot com. See you next time, and stay safe 726 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:41,479 Speaker 2: out there.