1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's an old Bible 2 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: verse that talks about a man whose quiver is full, 3 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: it is truly blessed. Now, I've always taken that to 4 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: mean that a man that's been blessed with children as 5 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: a man that throughout his days will be happy and whole. 6 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: In this case, we have a man that took those 7 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: errors out of the quiver and literally snapped them into 8 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: discarding them like they were nothing more than rubbish. I'm 9 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this his body Backs. I'm joined 10 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: today with my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of 11 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Wouldn't answer, grace, Jackie, what can you tell 12 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: us about this case? Joe, This is a particularly difficult 13 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: case to talk about. Timothy Jones Jr. Had five children, 14 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: children treated very poorly. Jones killed his children one at 15 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: a time, and then traveled with their bodies across the South. 16 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: Let me lay out for you the order that these 17 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: children died. Jones, thirty seven years old, exercised his six 18 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: year old boy, Natant, until he died. It began with 19 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: a broken electrical outlet in the home. The father again, Jones, 20 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: thirty seven made the boy run around their home until 21 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: he collapsed. The oldest child eight year old Mara, and 22 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: then there was seven year old Alliance strangled to death 23 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: by their father. Then he choked two year old Gabriel 24 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: and one year old Abigail as well. After the children 25 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: were dead, Jones wrapped the bodies in plastic and then 26 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 1: drove around the southeast for nine days before dumping their bodies. 27 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: It's hard to understand, Joe, how someone can hurt another human, 28 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: let alone their five children. Give me an idea. This 29 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: poor child, a six year old brand was made to exercise. 30 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: Tell me what was going on with his body? You know, Jackie, 31 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: we've we've covered cases like this in the past where 32 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: we have individuals that just absolutely collapse as a result 33 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: of total and physical exhaustion. And when you begin to 34 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: think of the physiology of say a young child, you 35 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: you think that they can, you know, kind of go 36 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: on forever and ever. That there I'm not gonna say 37 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: necessarily bulletproof, but their young bodies are not inhibited by 38 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: some of the factors that come along with age. But 39 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's a potential for terminal event with 40 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: any child whatsoever, And so when you begin to press 41 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: a child into this constant state of movement. And he 42 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: he actually did this. He uh Jones actually described how 43 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: he would make this child run in place, run around 44 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: the exterior other mobile home, and then do something called 45 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: wall sits, which is where he makes the child sit 46 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: with his back like he's sitting in an imaginary chair 47 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: with his back placed against the wall. And it puts 48 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: incredible strain upon upon the skeleton and the muscles. And 49 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: not just that, but you have to also factor in 50 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: this idea of fear. Can you imagine this little child, 51 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: he is at the mercy of this grown man telling 52 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: him how worthless he is, how how he's possessed, perhaps 53 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: by demons. This has been brought up at some point 54 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: in time, and the adrenaline is pumping in this little 55 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: boy's body and he's sitting there in total and complete fear. 56 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: So you've got these two factors that make up a 57 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: perfect storm here physiologically where you are wearing this child 58 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: down physically and then emotionally and mentally. He's being driven 59 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: to exhaustion just by this this overdose of things like 60 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: dopamine and adrenaline, and of course, at some point in time, 61 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: you're going to collapse as a result of of of 62 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,799 Speaker 1: total exhaustion. Not to mention, there's also been a hint 63 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: that there was some type of striking that was going 64 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: on with this little boy. But like you had said, 65 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: and it's kind of gives a hint as to what 66 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: what wound up happening here. These children were down Jackie 67 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: for almost nine days. So it's really really difficult Joe, 68 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: what happened to this child? Explain it to me specifically? 69 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: What does it actually mean? What does it do to 70 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: your body to break you down? Are we talking about 71 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: lack of water? Are we talking about his heart stopped? 72 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: What is it that actually killed him? Well, when you 73 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: begin to think about it, our our body is like 74 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: a little engine, isn't it, And so it requires fuel, 75 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: it requires lubrication, those sorts of things, and at a 76 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: at a a cellular level, our bodies require things like 77 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: electro lights. We hear about that electro light replacement, and athletes, 78 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: you know, even high high speed athletes, have to have 79 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: electro lights. They drink all of these sports drinks in 80 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: order to replace them. You can have a compromise of 81 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: your sodium levels, for instance, and this goes to things 82 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: that lead to things like cardiac arrest. So when you're 83 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: being deprived of these these basic elements and also included 84 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: this is like potass um These are being consumed by 85 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: your body, this little engine in your body the entire 86 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: time until you reach a point where you're going to 87 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: have a rhythm event with your heart that's going to 88 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: cause you to go into cardiac arrest. It's it's unsustainable. 89 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: And this child, Jackie, remember it's child's only six years old, 90 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: and he is being forced by the one person that 91 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: is in total troll of his life at that moment 92 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: time and each day, day in and day out. He 93 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: knows no other master if you will, so he's going 94 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: to do specifically what he's told to do because if 95 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: he doesn't, he knows the price is going to be high. 96 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: He'll be forced to sit against the wall, or worse, 97 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: maybe he'll be beaten over and over again. You mentioned 98 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: electro lights. What exactly does that mean? Because you hear 99 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: it all the time you as a parent, your child 100 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: gets sick, has diarrhea, has a stomach virus, has a cold, 101 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: we worry about making sure their electrolyts levels are okay. 102 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: But what does that actually mean, when you have an 103 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: electrolt deficiency. This goes to kind of the receptors in 104 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: your body that are uh that at a physiological level, 105 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: that are telling, uh, telling the mechanisms within your body, say, 106 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: for instance, uh your heart uh to beat, and so 107 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: these become compromised to the point where your heart actually 108 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: seizes after a period of time when they're deprived of them. 109 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: So at an elemental le double all of these are 110 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: being drained away everything just like I mentioned potassium, uh, sodium, 111 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: and of course uh this complex of electrolytes. So everything 112 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: kind of seizes up and compromises to the point where 113 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: the child is not gonna have what is actually referred 114 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: to as a classic heart attack where we have a 115 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: blockage in our heart, because the child is six years old, 116 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: is not going to have have blockage or atheroscrotic cardiovascular 117 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: disease where they're gonna have what's called a myo cardial infarction. 118 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: This is going to be a rhythm event where the 119 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: heart actually begins to spasm and in a moment in 120 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: just like a twinkling of the eyes, suddenly the heart 121 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: stops after it begins to kind of seize, and the 122 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: child collapses, and of course oxygen and blood's not flowing 123 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: through the through the body anymore, so the child's gonna die. 124 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: If the child had received immediate medical attention, could he 125 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: have been saved. Yeah, he could have been saved. And 126 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, that's really the tragedy of all of this. 127 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: I think it probably if Jones, at some point in 128 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: time had maybe just shown one sintilla of mercy to 129 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: this little boy. He could have set him down and 130 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: given him a breather, maybe given him some something like 131 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: a sports drink, maybe water, just water in and of itself, 132 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: because the child is also becoming dehydrated at this point, 133 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: just to give him a rest, maybe for twenty minutes, 134 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: you know that that little window there where if he 135 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: had been granted just a little bit of rest, but 136 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: he may have been able to endure. But just like 137 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: my analogy with a motor vehicle, he ran this child 138 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: to the point where the engine essentially blew and the 139 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: child had had no chance of recovering from this. And 140 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: what's really a shame is that as as this was 141 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: going on, I can almost tell you what happened. This 142 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: child visibly, and I mean visibly, went into a seizure 143 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: in front in in front of his father, this man 144 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: who was supposed to be taking care of him. This 145 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: child ease right there. You can imagine, the body goes rigid, 146 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: the thumbs are tucked back. Uh. You'll you'll see them 147 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: begin gas for air. They're kind of vibrating and shaking 148 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: on the ground until there's nothing but just dead silence. 149 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: How long would it have taken for this child to collapse? 150 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: And there were talking an hour, two hours or all day? 151 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: I think that this is probably in totality, um, if 152 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: you're going to run this child to death. I think 153 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 1: that there has been mentioned in this case that this 154 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: may have gone on in excess of two hours at 155 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 1: one point in time, and that would probably be sufficient 156 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: uh to do this. In and again, when you have 157 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: this lethal combination of this pumping of adrenaline, the deprivation 158 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: of nutrients, and the necessary elemental essentials that we require 159 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 1: as human beings, Um, it is a train wreck waiting 160 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: to happen. And and listen, there's also something else that 161 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: you have to factor in here. Uh. And again, I 162 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: don't know if they were able to assess this in 163 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: the Ton's body, but I'm thinking that there was probably 164 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: ongoing what's referred to as deprivation along the way, where 165 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: probably food and water for protracted period of time, I mean, 166 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: like days beforehand, we're probably being withheld from him. So 167 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: you have this kind of event that's going on, and 168 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: the father is just kind of sitting back waiting, waiting 169 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: for the roverbial straw that broke the candle's back. And 170 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 1: as it turned out, you know, he accused the child 171 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: of short circuiting you know, the electrical system in the house. Uh, 172 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 1: and and put that on this little six year old boy. 173 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: Can you imagine? You know, he had actually claimed that 174 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: the child had blown four sockets, you know, other than 175 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, sticking a paper clip in a socket. Right now, 176 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 1: I couldn't even tell you how to blow a socket 177 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: in a house. How much more so does that apply 178 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: to a six year old child? And that's that is 179 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: what the father was allegedly accusing the son of. And 180 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: the father actually admitted to it. So I would have 181 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: to imagine too that the size of a six year 182 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: old played a large part in this too, because you know, 183 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: six year old, how much do you weigh? Fifty pounds? 184 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: If that yeah, it would be And again you know, 185 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: uh as as adults, we have a certain a certain 186 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: level of energy stores, and you know that's considered be 187 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: like fats for instance, that we carry on board in 188 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: our body, and so we have we have sufficient energy 189 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: that we can call upon. And if we keep balancing, 190 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: we're moving, we might be able to avoid saving to say, 191 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: having some kind of cardiac problem, as long as we 192 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: don't get into extreme where essentially the needle is in 193 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: the red. If you will well this child, if he's 194 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: deprived of nutrients, if he's deprived of the bare essentials, 195 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: and this has been going on not just in the 196 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: acute that means sudden, but chronically where he's being denied food, 197 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: all it's going to take is to push his little 198 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: body closer and closer and closer to that red line. 199 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: And it's at that point that he can't recover from that. 200 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: And it would not I think that it probably would 201 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: not matter even if you had an e er physician 202 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: there with a crash cart where they're trying to revive 203 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: this child. I just don't see how they could have 204 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: done it, because the child had just literally been run ragged. Jackie. 205 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: We've we've actually talked about just one of these precious 206 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: little children and uh, and how that child, Naton came 207 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: to his death. But you know, Jackie, therefore their children 208 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: here for other children that this man had been gifted with, 209 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: and they have a story to tell as well, don't 210 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: they do? Joe, eight year old Mara and seven year 211 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: old Alliance were strangled by Jones with his bare hands. 212 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: That means most likely that he was looking the children 213 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: in the face when he killed them. Yeah, and that's 214 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: that's what makes this kind of manual. And this is 215 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: in fact manual strangulation where you're talking about the utilization 216 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: of your bare hands, uh to choke, to choke another 217 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: human being to death. And there's many different types of 218 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: manual strangulation, but we have to assume that this was 219 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: probably a throttling where you use both hands, you grab 220 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: the neck on the antire which means the front, and 221 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: you begin to squeeze, squeeze down until the child in 222 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: In these cases, as a matter of fact, where these 223 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: two children were both completely deprived of oxygen, there's two 224 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: mechanisms at work here that can happen. Jackie. We have 225 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 1: the mechanism of the squeez using that actually shuts down 226 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: the blood flow to the brain and it it it 227 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: causes a condition with the brain, uh that that deprives 228 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: it of oxygen eated blood that rises up out of 229 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: the corroated vessels. So you're clamping those vessels down and 230 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: and absolutely the brain begins to kind of almost strangulate 231 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: as a result of of lack of blood supply. Then 232 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: you have another thing that happens with manual strangulation, and 233 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: that is when you have the trachea, the layern x, 234 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: the structures that are kind of firm that are in 235 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: in our throat. You begin to think like the structure 236 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: of the Adam's apple, for instance, and of course the 237 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: infamous highoid bone that's it's very high. What happens with 238 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: this is that in addition to the blood vessels being 239 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: clamped off, you're actually closing down or clamping down the 240 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: the the airflow that's coming in through the nose, through 241 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: the mouth and is is going to DeLonge where this 242 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: blood oxygen exchange takes place. And so that you've got 243 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: these both of these mechanisms working at the same time, 244 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: and so if one isn't effective, then the other might be, 245 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: and then you wind up with a combination of both 246 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: and of course, the end is always lethal. How much 247 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: pressure does it take to do this? And how was 248 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: he physically able to do this? It doesn't take much 249 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: with these these tender young necks of these children. Remember 250 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: these children are not very old, they're not very robust. 251 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: This is a grown man. He's got large, probably muscled hands. Uh, 252 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: and it's not going to take very much to overcome 253 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,119 Speaker 1: a child. And let me throw in one little aside 254 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: here relative to Jones. Jones was interviewed and one of 255 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: the investigators actually asked this man said, did the kids? 256 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: Did the kids struggle? Did they fight back? And his 257 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: mounts was chilling, absolutely chilling. He in this is paraphrasing, 258 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: he said, sure, wouldn't anybody, And just allow that to 259 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: kind of seat down into your mind just for a second, 260 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: that the dead could be that callous when he's describing 261 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: squeezing literally squeezing the life out of both of these children, um, 262 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: in those moments, and it really, you know, to your 263 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: other question, it really doesn't. It doesn't take very long 264 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: if you will, to uh compromise or defeat the structures 265 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: of the neck. You know, the way our bodies are 266 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: are put together. Uh, they're meant to function in in 267 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: kind of difficult circumstances, when it's cold outside, when it's hot, 268 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: when we when we're sick, all these sorts of things. 269 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: But when you begin to compromise the structure, the muscles, 270 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: all the supportive tissues, these airways and certainly these vessels 271 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: that supply oxygen and blood, it's not going to take 272 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: much with a small child, and I would imagine that 273 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: the whole event, uh, for both of these kids was 274 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: probably took no more than four to five minutes with 275 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: each child. If that one thing that's that's kind of uh, 276 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: that's kind of heartbreaking in this particular case is the 277 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: fact that one of the kids, one of the kids 278 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: actually is reported to have looked at his father as 279 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: his dad is about to kill him and he said, Daddy, 280 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: I love you. Can you imagine that is heartbreaking? Job 281 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 1: just chilling, Yes, it is, Jackie. And the fact that 282 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: he would do this, and then you know, you have 283 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: to you have to try to and it's a scary 284 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: thing to do. You you kind of have to try 285 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: to get into his mind. First off, why in the 286 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: world would you want to And make no bones about 287 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: this is a physical assault that results that stemming from 288 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: the fact that he had essentially brought about the death 289 00:17:54,680 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: of Natan simply through exhaustion and deprivation. He is purposed. 290 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: He has purposed in his mind to begin to kill 291 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: these children one by one. And it's a very rudimentary 292 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: way to do it. It's not like he took the 293 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: child out in some kind of complex event and and 294 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: and and ended their lives collectively. What what he did 295 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: here was at a very primal level. I mean, just 296 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 1: think about it. This is very intimate, and you really 297 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: set something key here. When someone is choking another person, 298 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: there's a high probability you're gonna be face to face, 299 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: and it's one of the most intimate things that you 300 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: can do as far as the perpetration of a murder. 301 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: You're looking at them eye to eye. It's not like 302 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: they're great extended arms length. More than likely they're held close, 303 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: the elbows are vent. They're being drawn into their body 304 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: and just being squeezed. They're trying to apply the perpetrators 305 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,479 Speaker 1: trying to apply as much pressure as possible. And this 306 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: is another thing that that he would have born witness 307 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: to Jackie. It wasn't just kind of looking into the 308 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: eyes of these children as life left them, You're gonna 309 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: see physiological changes in in the appearance of your children. Okay, 310 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: So what happens here is that as you're beginning to 311 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: squeeze the head, the head, because as I always say, 312 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: the head is the most vascular area of the body, 313 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: the blood is backing up in the head, and so 314 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 1: the head turns, actually it turns this kind of lovacious 315 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: to purple color. The eyes begin to protrude about sometimes 316 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: the tongue will protrude. Many times people that are being choked, uh, 317 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: will actually bite their tongue and the tongue protrudes out 318 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: is clinched between the teeth, and it's all of this 319 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: is just this response that your body is struggling for 320 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: for air. And so he would have literally born witness 321 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: to this as he hovered over each child, and this 322 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: is flesh upon flesh. He is taking his hands, these 323 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 1: hands that were supposed to in there to protect these 324 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: kids over the years, these hands that we're supposed to 325 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: provide love and care, and he uses them to literally 326 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: constrict the life out of each one of these kids. 327 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: Other than that infamous hyoid bone that we have talked 328 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: about at great length, in other cases that can be 329 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,120 Speaker 1: easily broken with pressure on it. Given the size difference 330 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: between this man's hands and the necks of these children, 331 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: would we have seen other broken bones in their spine, 332 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: in their net region. Yeah, not necessarily broken bones. And 333 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: I want our listeners to understand this. It's not necessarily 334 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: you know. I think that a lot of us have 335 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: this idea that the snapping of necks, if you will, 336 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 1: and that's that's kind of something that Hollywood does. Um, 337 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: what's really critical here is not so much the hioid. 338 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: But if you remember when I was talking, uh, talking 339 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: about the layern nex itself, the area where where our 340 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: oxygen travels through. This is a what's referred to as 341 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: a cardilaginous body. If if folks at home will kind 342 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: of touch your nose, you have a cartilaginous area to 343 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 1: your nose. It's below the bony structure and it's it's 344 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: comprised of cardilaginous bodies in there. And did you know 345 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: with cartilage cartilage fractures as well. Okay, uh, And and 346 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: so just if you've ever had a friend that's had 347 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: like an injured meniscus in their knee, that's something that's 348 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: kind of common. That's a cartilaginous body. It's not actually 349 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: ossified like a bony structure, so these will actually fracture, 350 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: and when they do fracture, this essentially breaks down the 351 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: windpipe to the point where it doesn't function any longer. 352 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 1: So at autopsy, when we go into these structures, what 353 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: we're looking for our little focal areas of hemorrhage. Because 354 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: you have what covers the laynix right here. You have 355 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: what are called strap muscles, and they're these kind of 356 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: criss cross muscles that lie across this area and its 357 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: pressure is applied to them, they developed little areas or 358 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: focal areas of hemorrhage. Now this is different than PATIKII. 359 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: We hear about Patiki I a lot, and I'll get 360 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: to that in just a second, but you'll see hemorrhage 361 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: in the strap muscles that overlie these structures in the neck. Now, 362 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: going to particularly what happens with them, well, this is 363 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: this occurs when do you remember when I talked about 364 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: the congestion in the head. There's no blood return here, 365 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: so the blood is seeking areas where it can kind 366 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: of seep out. For instance, because of the intense pressure 367 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: in the eyes. It's most noticeable because the vessels in 368 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: the eyes are very dainty, they're very fragile. And remember 369 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 1: they're called vessels, they're not they're not storage units. Okay, 370 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: They're meant to move blood, not store blood. So more 371 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: pressure is built up on the inner walls of these 372 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: little these little capitlaier beds, and they explode and we 373 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: get these little pen prick hemorrhages. They are called particular hemorrhages. 374 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: And so that's something else that we're going to look for, 375 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: particularly in the eyes. Sometimes you'll see them along the 376 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: gum line as well, and UH and sometimes they will 377 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: actually appear on the lungs, depend upon how much pressure 378 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: is being exerted and how much the individual is struggling. 379 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: We have two other children to talk about, two year 380 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: old Gabriel and one year old Abigail. They were choked 381 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: with a belt because Timothy Jones hands were too big 382 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: for him to be able to do a manual strangulation. 383 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,479 Speaker 1: What would have been the difference in their deaths? This 384 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: is an important UH delineation to make between a manual 385 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: strangulation and what's referred to as a literature strangulation. Now, 386 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: literature can be made out of any number of things, 387 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: and I've seen them made with wire. I've seen them 388 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: made with with baling rope like you see with bales 389 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: of hay tied up. Electrical cord is very common, and 390 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: then you've got woven woven rope. But you know, one 391 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: of the most common things that we see utilized as 392 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: a weapon, uh and also as a means for people 393 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: to take their own lives are actually belts. You know 394 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: why because most people possess a belt of some kind, 395 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: and so it's something that has utility, it's something that's 396 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: within reach. So yeah, his hands probably these are very 397 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: tiny children. I mean, you know, if if I remember correctly, 398 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: uh Abigail Elane, she she was only one, and of 399 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: course Gabriel was only to just think about how diminutive 400 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: they are in comparison to a grown man, and so yeah, 401 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: he probably couldn't get both of his hands or wrapped 402 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: around their necks. So he's going to use what is 403 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: at his disposal. He may have even taken this belt 404 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: off of his own waste to facilitate this. Now, this 405 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: is gonna be a ligature strangulation. So this is gonna 406 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: look when we do the examination. From a forensic standpoint, 407 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: it's gonna look completely different than the presentation that you'll 408 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: have when someone is actually throttled or choked with with 409 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: bare hands or strangled with bare hands, you'll have widespread 410 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the soft tissues underlying skin and the muscles 411 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: with the hands. But with literature, it's very very specif effect. 412 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: And let's say, let's just think about a belt. Let's 413 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: think that maybe this is a two inch width belt. Well, 414 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: you're gonna have what are called margins, which will be 415 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: those areas that define the out the outside of the belt. 416 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 1: So just imagine a belt overlying a surface, so as 417 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: it squeezed down on an area the outer boundaries, it 418 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: almost looks like if you're looking at it from an 419 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: aerial shot, it almost looks like a road. When you're 420 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: looking down at it, you'll see the outer boundaries of 421 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: that road or the belt overlying the neck, and you'll 422 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: have hemorrhage there. And sometimes it will be abraided, you know, 423 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: like we you have an abraided uh, an abraided knee. 424 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: You can an abrasion, Well, that will happen on the 425 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: neck with the ligature because the person is struggling. All right, 426 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: you had this friction between the surface of the skin 427 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: and actually just contacting area with the ligature that's being utilized, 428 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: and so you'll have this kind of rubbed area there 429 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: as well. Now, how does this work, Well, there's a 430 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: couple of ways of the ligature can work. You can 431 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: use two hands with it where you essentially put it 432 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: around the neck kind of uh reverse order, if you will, 433 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: and then tighten it really quick and strangle the person 434 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: from the rear. Or with a belt, because it's got 435 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: a buckle, the individual can wrap the belt around an 436 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: individual's neck and then run the end of the belt 437 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: through the buckle and essentially sent it down and it 438 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: makes almost like a noose where you're standing above them. 439 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: And you know, in a case like this where you've 440 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: got these two very tiny, tiny, uh little children, that 441 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: is not beyond uh reason there that that this is 442 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: a way that this would have been done, you should 443 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: just kind of sentch the belt down on there. Now, 444 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: are you're gonna see the same things uh physiologically, Yeah, 445 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: you'll see a lot of the same things, uh that 446 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: you see with a manual strangulation. There'll still be patiti 447 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: you'll have underlying hemorrhage and soft tissue. But it's gonna 448 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 1: be very uniformed. When you have bare hands, it will 449 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,080 Speaker 1: be spread everywhere, but with a belt in this case, 450 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: it'll be very uniform. It will be defined. And even 451 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: when you what we call reflect the skin of the neck, 452 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,439 Speaker 1: you'll be able to make out that outline many times 453 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 1: on the surface of the muscles as well. Um. And 454 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: so you're also going to have associated patitii where the 455 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: little vessels again just like with a manual strangulation, are 456 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: gonna burst in the eyes. And in addition to that, um, 457 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: you're you're going to see potentially if he did in fact, 458 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: since this this is kind of horrific to think about, 459 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: not that this isn't already, but you will many times 460 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 1: see a buckle mark on the on the back of 461 00:27:32,960 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: the neck as well. So you kill your five children, 462 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: and one of the most intimate ways that you can 463 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: possibly do in the house that you sheltered them in, 464 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: what do you do with their bodies? In Jackie, the 465 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: story just gets more bizaars it goes along, it does. 466 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: Joe Timothy Jones Jr. At this point, after killing his 467 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: five children, ages one through eight, wraps their bodies in plastic, 468 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: places them in his car, and drives across the South 469 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: for nine days before he dumps their bodies in the 470 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: trunk of his vehicle. For nine days with five bodies. Yeah, 471 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm thinking, you know, what in the 472 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: world are you doing? And Jackie, let me correct you 473 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: about something you had mentioned that he wrapped them in plastic. 474 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: He didn't wrap them in plastic. He put these little 475 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: bodies in garbage bags. And I think that's emblematic of 476 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: the way he kind of viewed them. He viewed them 477 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: as nothing more than refuse, if you will. And he 478 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: spent this this protracted period of time running up and 479 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: down the road in a mad fear, trying to figure out, 480 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 1: what in the world am I gonna do with these bodies? 481 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: How am I not going to draw attention to myself? 482 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: And all the while you can't stop nature, can you. 483 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: All the while, as he's driving down the road in 484 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: this escalade that he's driving, those bodies are riding with him, 485 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: these precious little angels, what's left of them sweating inside 486 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: of these bags, because that's what happens to bodies like 487 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: this when they're actually encased in plastic. It's speeding up 488 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: the process of decomposition. So let's just think about that 489 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: just for a second. All the while, every single day, 490 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: every moment, every second that ticks off of that clock, 491 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: these bodies are progressing further and further and further down 492 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: to post mortem timeline. And that means that changes are 493 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: going on at at a molecular level. The bodies are 494 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: essentially going through what's referred to as autolytic changes, and 495 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: kind of let me explain to you what that is, 496 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: auto meaning self. The body is kind of in a 497 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: state of self digestion, is what's happening. Remember, at a 498 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: at a cellular level, cellular respiration has ceased, so the 499 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: body begins to break down. It's literally beginning to consume 500 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: itself after this period of time, and with that, all 501 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: of these gases are created and you get this horrible 502 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: odor that rises up out of each one of these children. 503 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: It's not just one child. You've got five children that 504 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: you're conveying, and each of them are unique in their 505 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: own structure, and they're decomposing, probably at different rates, but 506 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: still all the while decomposing. As Dad is driving down 507 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: the road with their remains in the back and it's 508 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 1: August in the South, Joe, the Deep South. You're right, 509 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: and it's not just the South, it's the Deep South. 510 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: I've lived here in my entire life, Jack, And let 511 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: me tell you something I know about the Deep South 512 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: in August. It's hot. It's hot even if you've got 513 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: the air on when you get out of the car. 514 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 1: Every time you go to refuel, hot air steeps in 515 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: and and that's going to promote this process. We talked 516 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 1: about the autolytic change that's going on within the body. 517 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: Then you've got this kind of puture faction that's going 518 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: on that's an external force on the body. And this 519 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: is this is sped up by heat. It's like it's 520 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: like he's driving down the road in the car almost 521 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: becomes like a convection of and where heat is kind 522 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: of swirling and circulating around him and the remains of 523 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: his children as he's going down the road. These children 524 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: are now breaking down, not just at a molecular level, 525 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: at a cellular level. Rather they're breaking down now externally. 526 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: The bodies are beginning to swell. You got this foul 527 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: odor that's rising up and it permeates everything. Um. I've 528 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: I've actually worked cases in the past, Jackie, where bodies 529 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: were left in cars decomposed and the people came and 530 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: retrieved the bodies, removed them from the cars. And I'm 531 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: talking about a year down range from when the perpetrator 532 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: came back to the scene and removed the body, and 533 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: you could still smell the decomposition in the fabric of 534 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: the car. It's almost impossible to get that smell out. 535 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: So everywhere he goes, everything he does, if he's stopping 536 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: to get a candy bar, if he's stopping to get 537 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: a soda pop, if he's stopping to to get a 538 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: UH to top off his car with gas, everywhere he 539 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: would go, his body would just be infused with the 540 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 1: smell with this aroma of his decomposing children. I cannot 541 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: I can only imagine him going into into a convenience 542 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: store and just walking in unbathed, unshowered, and walking past 543 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: people and them smelling him. And what in the world 544 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: is going on with this guy? Because this is not 545 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: something that you just normally associate with with everyday life. 546 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: This is something and I think that it goes to 547 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: something in our promal, our primal being. It's almost like 548 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: an indication of fear. I think, if you will, there's 549 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: something about it that when people smell this smell, they 550 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: know something horrible has happened at this point in time. 551 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: And if people will alert now, somebody might not say 552 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: anything to you about it, but people would have taken 553 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: notice of him, and still to this day, if you 554 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: could track down his car, that car would still have 555 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: that odor of deafinity. The smell of decomposition Joe that 556 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: you're talking about is one of the reasons that Timothy 557 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: Jones got caught. He was stopped on a routine sobriety check, 558 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: a roadblock, if you will, and an officer was paying 559 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: attention to exactly what you just described. Yes, he was 560 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: Jackie that officer. Can you imaginagine you're it's at night, 561 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: You've got a flashlight, your stand out there, and you've 562 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: got all of your colleagues. This is a sobriety checkpoint. 563 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: They're checking to see if you know, just randomly, if 564 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,919 Speaker 1: people are d u I that are going through there, 565 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, on this on this county road, and all 566 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: of a sudden, this this escalates slowly pulls up and 567 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: you can imagine the guy in the front seat is 568 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: probably nervous he's got the cops there, they've got their flashlights, 569 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,439 Speaker 1: they're checking. They don't know. He doesn't know if they're 570 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: looking for him or if this is just they're just 571 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: randomly checking people. But when that wind that comes down 572 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: in that August heat in Mississippi, because that's where this was, 573 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: that smell would have rolled out of that window. And 574 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: something I can tell you about cops, and I've heard 575 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,360 Speaker 1: this over and over and over again from all of 576 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 1: my friends are in law enforcement, this sort of thing. 577 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: And I know it anyway because I'm a death investigator. 578 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: But they always say, they say, once you smell the 579 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: smell of death, you'll never forget it as long as 580 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 1: you live. And when that cop approached that window and 581 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: he stuck his head in there to ask this fellow, 582 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,439 Speaker 1: Mr Jones, how's it going this evening, that smell rolled 583 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 1: out and it hit that cop right in the nose, 584 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: and he knew instantaneously that something was afoot, something horrible. 585 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 1: And it's at that point in time they pulled Jones 586 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: out of the vehicle and they were asking, who are 587 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: you and why is your vehicle smell like this? Where 588 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: were the children, Joe? You know, where where he was 589 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: found was just into Mississippi out of Alabama. Uh, Jackie, 590 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,360 Speaker 1: there's any number of roads that you know that connect 591 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: these two states are adjoining. You can go down the 592 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: corridor and you you go from Alabama directly into Mississippi. 593 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: But Jones turns out he had gone down what has 594 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: been previously described as a logging road. And if you 595 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 1: don't know what a logging road is, it's it's very 596 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: very rough. It's it's generally more or less like a 597 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: path where big trucks go in and they pull out 598 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: pine trees that are being harvested for pulp wood. And 599 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: he had found one of these roads, and he decided 600 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: while he was still in our Obama that he was 601 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: going to go down one of these logging roads. There's 602 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: a lot of brush on either side, and he deposited 603 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: these these poor little precious children, their their bodies. And 604 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 1: you know, I've seen the crime scene images of these, Jackie. 605 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: He he didn't just simply take the bags and bury them. 606 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: He didn't, you know, lay them out in some respect 607 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: respectable way. He took these kids and he just created 608 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: a pile. Remember what I said earlier, These children were 609 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: in garbage bags and that's what it looked like. It 610 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,360 Speaker 1: looked like piles of garbage that someone had just deposited 611 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: in a rural area and then driven off. And what's 612 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: very sad is that with Mirra, the oldest child, I 613 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: hate to even say this, wild animals had gotten into 614 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: her bag and had begun to feast on her, feast 615 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: on her remains. And that's the horror of this because 616 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: his shouldren not only did he not protect them in life, 617 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: not only did he destroy them in life and take 618 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: their lives away from them, he failed miserably protecting them 619 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: in death because they are subject to all of the 620 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: elements surrounding them everything, and when a decomposing body is 621 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: in the wild like this, just one, now we've got five, 622 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,279 Speaker 1: you're this is sending off signals to every bit of 623 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: the wildlife around there, everything from foxes to raccoons, to 624 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: possum anything or wild dogs, anything that is going to 625 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: feast on flesh is going to be out there. And 626 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: that's what happened to these children's bodies. To this day, 627 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: to this day, Jackie, there are still police officers and 628 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: prosecutors that are having a very very difficult time getting 629 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: these cases out of their minds. I can certainly understand 630 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: why that would be Joe, while the only true justice 631 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: would be for these children to still be alive. Jones 632 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: was arrested and tried, found guilty, and has been sentenced 633 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,959 Speaker 1: to death in South Carolina, Jackie. What sets this case 634 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 1: apart from every other case that that I've covered is 635 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 1: the fact that this these homicides. Let me rephrase that 636 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 1: these murders, because this is what this is. These are murders, 637 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 1: brutal murders. These took place in South Carolina. I've never 638 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: seen a case where you had such what's called the 639 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: inter agency cooperation. Did you know that when those with 640 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: the state police in Alabama found and located these bodies, 641 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 1: they had the courtesy to contact the authorities in South 642 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: Carolina and request their crime scene unit. All the way 643 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: in South Carolina, this is a good five or six 644 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: hundred miles away, They blocked traffic on I twenty and 645 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: they held it. They held that crime scene until c. S. 646 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,399 Speaker 1: I from South Carolina could drive all the way from 647 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: there to the far western part in this rural, isolated 648 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: area of Alabama in order to process this scene. And 649 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: when the police arrived there, the sun was going down. 650 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: It was getting dark and they couldn't process us the 651 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 1: scene immediately. They had to wait till the next morning. 652 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: But during that time they began to make plans, and 653 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: all of these agencies got together and worked and wound 654 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: up getting a conviction in this case. And Mr Jones 655 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: right now he sits on Death Road in South Carolina. 656 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.