1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Hi, it's West Kasova. We're taking a break today for 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: the US holiday. Here's one of our favorite episodes that 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: you may have missed. Thanks for listening. We'll be back 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: tomorrow with another new Big Take. You're walking through pools 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: of water, little underground streams. It really is one of 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: the most extreme environments that I've ever been in. From 7 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio, it's the Big Take. 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: I'm West Cosova. Each weekday we dig into one important story, 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: and today the worldwide hunt for copper. Soon there might 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: not be enough of it to feed our insatiable demand. 11 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: The soundclip you heard at the top of the show. 12 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: That was Bloomberg reporter Matthew Hill. He traveled to a 13 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: huge copper mine in Zambia in Southern Africa, and he's 14 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: here to tell the incredible story of what it takes 15 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: to get copper out of the ground and into your 16 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: computer or your car, the wiring in your house. I 17 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: talked to Matt in just a bit, but first let's 18 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: talk about why copper matters so much. Because I'll admit 19 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: I don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about 20 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: the global copper supply, and I suspect you might not either. 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: In fact, our producer Michael Falero went out onto the 22 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: street in Washington, d C. To measure people's copper i Q. 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: He asked them a simple question. A smartphone and air conditioner, 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: an extension cord in a car? What material do they 25 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: all share? Is plastic mercury motherboard? Why is um aluminium copper? 26 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: All right, it's not a trick question. Don't ever think 27 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: it right. I absolutely would have failed that quiz, So 28 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: I feel a bit better that most of those folks 29 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: did too. If we're looking towards a future of clean energy, 30 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: clean electricity, copper is a critical ingredient and we'll need 31 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: more and more of it. So we asked a couple 32 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: of people who do spend a lot of time worrying 33 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 1: about the global copper supply to explain what a big 34 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: deal it is. Von Lee is a metals in mining 35 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: reporter for Bloomberg based in New York. One thing is 36 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,959 Speaker 1: that if you're believing this electrification story, then copper really 37 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: has the the feature for that, because copper has the 38 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 1: most conductivity of all metals. Basically, not only your evs 39 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: need copper, but power grids, energy storage, wing turbines, solar panels. 40 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: They all need copper because copper is simply is kind 41 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: of the best metal for electrification. So how much copper 42 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: does the world need? Well, think about this. The average 43 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 1: car contains sixty pounds of copper. That's about twenty nine kilos. 44 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: For an electric vehicle or e V, it can be 45 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: a lot more. Here's James Atwood, a senior commodities reporter 46 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg based in Santiago, Chile, one of the world's 47 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: biggest copper producers. In an electric vehicle, it can be 48 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: double or as much as four times that amount because 49 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: of the reach out to batteries and it's electric gup, 50 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: basically anything with word electric, and it means it's going 51 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: to be a bit of copper, and you know whatever, 52 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: The prices of copper go up, and then people look 53 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: at things like aluminium and even plastic as alternatives of 54 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: substitutes for copper, but there's no easy substitutes for the copper. Globally, 55 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: minds produce about twenty one million metric tons of copper 56 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: each year, and in a little more than a decade 57 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: the world's demand is expected to more than double. I 58 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: sat down with a van and aims to hear more 59 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: about what's at stake. Yes, I mean copies right now 60 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: is sitting on about seven five hundred dollars a ton. 61 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: It was more than ten thousand dollars early this year. 62 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: There are several analysts who are looking at more like 63 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand in the not too disti future. So doubling 64 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: prices so that obviously that has a varying on water inflation, 65 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: the potential to be a constraints on economic growth, but 66 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: it also has a potential to be a constraint on 67 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: net zero targets. How long does it take to make 68 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: a new mind. Let's say today I have all the 69 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: money in the world and I want to get a big, 70 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 1: rich vein of copper, and I know where it is 71 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: and have the permits. How long will it take? It 72 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: takes about eight to ten years, give or a take. 73 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: You need to build a mind. That takes years, and 74 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: for a mind to be fully operating, that's a multi 75 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: year process. That's why we are saying people are worried 76 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: that we don't have enough investment right now because down 77 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: the line and next five years or so, we will 78 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: be needing all the copper. And that's why if we 79 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: don't have investment now, then we will be running out 80 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: of copper really soon. Do you envision a sort of 81 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: a balance here where we need copper for renewable sources 82 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: of energy and we need for all kinds of other 83 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: things that we're going to need in the future, and 84 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: yet it's dirty to produce. Is there a balance where 85 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: the environmental costs of new mining and extensive extra mining 86 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: from existing minds is outweighed by the benefit down the road, 87 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: or do we eventually come to a point where we're 88 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: gonna need something else besides copper. Yes, I think the 89 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: kind of like environmental and economic benefits outweighed the dirty 90 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: part of copper mining, because I feel like if we 91 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: are really serious about decombronization, we want to electrify the economy, 92 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: there has to be some short term compromise to make 93 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: so that we can achieve long term decobronization. Yes, we 94 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: usually associate money with kind of like dirty you see 95 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: dust and blast explosion and things like that, But the 96 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: benefit of having all the metals in a circular economy 97 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: is really beneficial to this clear energy future. So looking 98 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: down the road, how concerned should people be that copper 99 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: isn't going to be available, that products are gonna rise 100 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: in price as a result of it, or be in 101 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: short supply, and that the move towards non carbon based energy, 102 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: cleaner energy is going to stall out if we cannot 103 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: solve this looming copper shortage. I guess what just has 104 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: to be stuck with fossil fuel for a relatively longer 105 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: period of time, And I guess if you want to 106 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: buy an evy you'll have to pay a lot more 107 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: then if we solve the copper shortage problem. In the 108 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: short term, prices are coming off a bit lower than 109 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: they were. Demand that look needs to and demand that 110 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: looks bleak just as demand weakens or seems to be weakening, 111 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: supplies coming on. That's what's causing this short term pullback. 112 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: But all that changes, according to the analysts that middle 113 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: part of this decade, and that's when the tightness really 114 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: starts becoming more visible and we'll start to bite. But 115 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: when you talk to people kind of in the industry, 116 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: are they worried about what's gonna happen? Yeah, they were 117 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: just saying kind of like, we don't have the investment 118 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: we need for the foreseeable future. So that's going to 119 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: be a huge problem. And I would say if Elon 120 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: Musk is really serious about energy transition, he should invest 121 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: in copper mining. Thank you so much, James Edward. I've 122 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: only really appreciate you taking the time and educating us 123 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: on this big problem. Thank you for having me. After 124 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: the break, I talked with Bloomberg reporter Matthew Hill about 125 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: what it's like to go deep underground in a Zambian 126 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: copper mine. So we've been talking about how important copper 127 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: is to an energy future with fossil fuels for clean energy, 128 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: and one of the big problems is that there is 129 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: going to be a shortage of copper and coming years. 130 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: There is a whole lot of copper in one place, though, 131 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: and that is in Southern Africa and Zambia, in the 132 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: area around the Democratic Republic of Congo. And so you'd think, great, 133 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: they have big minds there. We can get the copper, 134 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: but not so fast. Matthew Hill is joining me now. 135 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: He's Bloomberg recorder based in Umbumbella in eastern South Africa, 136 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: and he has written a story called The Medals for 137 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: Your ev are stuck in a thirty mile African traffic jam, Matt, 138 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks very much for having 139 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 1: me on. So you went to this enormous mind in 140 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: Zambia which produces a whole lot of copper. How much 141 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: copper is there in this region, the Central African copper 142 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: belt that extends from southern Democratic Republic of Congo into 143 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: northern Zambia northwestern Zambia. The area is bigger than the 144 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: size of the country of Portugal, but over the past 145 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: few decades very little of that copper has been exploited. 146 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: Right now, together, Zambia and the Congo only account for 147 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: about twelve of global copper production, but there is the 148 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: potential to produce much much more than that. So there 149 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: are many many tons of copper under the ground, and 150 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: if they can get at it, it could go a 151 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: long way to alleviating a future Kapper shortage exactly. So, 152 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: Um you mentioned Democratic Republic of Congo, which sits right 153 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: on Zambia's border to the north, and between the two 154 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: of them there is an enormous amount of copper and 155 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: a lot of travel between them to get that copper out, 156 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: and that is the subject of your story. You went 157 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: to a very large copper mine in Zambia and show 158 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,719 Speaker 1: just how hard it is to get it out of 159 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: the ground and get it then to where it needs 160 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: to be. Can you describe the mind? What did you 161 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: see there? What was it like? The mind that we 162 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: went to is in a small town called Muffu Lira 163 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: in northern Zambia. Operations they're actually started in the nineteen thirties, 164 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: so it's one of Africa's oldest copper minds. It's also 165 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: one of Africa's deepest copper minds. We went down a 166 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: new shoft just recently built that extends one thousand five 167 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: ms below the Earth's surface. All Right, I gotta ask 168 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: you about this because I've never been down in the 169 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,599 Speaker 1: capermin and frankly, that sounds a little terrifying to me. 170 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: What is it like to write down one of those 171 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: shafts to mine that deep? Yeah, it's quite crazy. You 172 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: get in what the mining folk call a cage um, 173 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: which is just the industrial name for a giant elevator. 174 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: It really goes quickly. We actually went right down to 175 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: the bottom of the mine. Even though it's in the 176 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 1: middle of the African continent, it's actually below sea level. 177 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: That's how deep it is. It's quite an intense environment 178 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: down there. I mean the rocks just because of the 179 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: sheer pressure you're going so deep below the Earth's surface. 180 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: The temperature of the rocks is forty degrees celsius, which 181 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: for those Americans is very hot. Yeah, I mean that's 182 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: well well into the nineties. It's also one of the 183 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: Earth's wettest copper mines because it's in Central Africa. There's 184 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: a lot of rain during the wet season, and that permeates, 185 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: I mean it takes a long time, but that permeates 186 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: down below the Earth's surface. And you've got these huge 187 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: underground rivers flowing. At this particular mining shop. They have 188 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: to pump up the equivalent of forty seven Olympic sized 189 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: swimming pools worth of water every day, and that's just 190 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: to keep it from flooding the mine shafts exactly. So 191 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: they've got these massive underground pump stations which are just 192 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: constantly pumping up to the surface this water that's flowing down. 193 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like waterfalls and you're walking through pools 194 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: of water, little underground streams. It really is one of 195 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: the most extreme environments that I've ever been in. And 196 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: then how is it cover actually removed. When the miners do, 197 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 1: are they blasting it? Are they using pixar? It must 198 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: be a fairly industrial activity, very much so they blast 199 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: or out of the or being the rocks that contained 200 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: the copper they blasted out. In my hands, I've got 201 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: some of the rocks that have been blasted out of 202 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: the walls here. It's actually quite astounding how you can 203 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: see the copper visibly showing up in the rocks. This 204 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: is the richest copper that this mine has, and it's 205 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: got just slightly more than two grams pop copper per 206 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: ton of rock. So to produce the copper, you've got 207 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: to move a lot of rock, then loaded into dump trucks. 208 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: Those trucks haul it to the shot, which is the 209 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: vertical tunnel that goes down to the bottom where it's 210 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: loaded into cages and then hauled back up to the 211 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: surface where it goes through a whole other process to 212 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: pret use a product that is ninety nine point nine 213 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: nine mine copper, so pretty pure, and that all happens 214 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: on the site of the mine where it is mind 215 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: and refined to that very pure copper, which is then 216 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: essentially a product exactly. It's all within the vicinity of 217 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: the muffule Era mine. How much is that copper worth 218 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: right now in the market if you look at the 219 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: current copper price, which is about seven thousand, five hundred 220 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: dollars per ton, And I must point out that especially 221 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: over the past year, the price has been extremely volatile. 222 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: It reached a new record above ten thousand dollars per 223 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: ton earlier this year um and has since fallen quite 224 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: a bit. But just at the current copper price, you 225 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: are looking at about six hundred and seventy five million dollars. 226 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: You can see why it's worth all this effort you 227 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: just described to get this out of the ground. Absolutely, 228 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: do we know who's buying it where it ends up. 229 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: The majority of that copper probably ends up in China, 230 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: which accounts for about of global copper demand. And that's 231 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: because China produces so much of the world's electronics and 232 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: solar panels and other things where copper is used. Exactly, 233 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: so you can imagine, I mean, when you're talking about 234 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: removing tons of earth at the end, only the tiniest, 235 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: tiniest portion of that is actually copper. Uh, And so 236 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: you are hauling an enormous amount out of the ground 237 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: in order to get very very little, which I guess 238 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: explains why copper is just so expensive in many ways. 239 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: That's the easy pot. There are no shortage of buyers 240 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: for all of that copper. By getting it into their 241 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: hands is a harrowing journey. When we come back, Matt 242 00:15:55,640 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: is going to describe the very long trip by truck 243 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: to get that copper to port. Now, so you went 244 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: down into the mine and you watched how it is 245 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: brought up from deep in the ground and refined into copper, 246 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: and next is trying to get into the hands of 247 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: the people who want to use it. Um, can you 248 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: describe exactly what it takes to do that? Well, it 249 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: must be one of the most difficult jobs in the world, 250 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: if not one of the longest jobs in the world. 251 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: To complete. Watch should be a relatively simple task. From 252 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: the Democratic Republic of Congo, the mind's just north of 253 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: the Zambian border there, which are actually much bigger than 254 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: the Zambian minds in terms of production. You are looking 255 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: at about three thousand kilometers down to the port of Durban, 256 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: just off South Africa's east coast, which has always been 257 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: the most important port for copper exports out of the 258 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: Central African copper belt for both Zambia as well as 259 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: the Democratic Republic of Congo. That three thousand kilometer journey 260 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: this year, it's taken more than thirty days, and that 261 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: trip is incredibly long. And Heroin, can you describe it? 262 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: Because you and a long this route and you saw 263 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: what it's like to transport copper. One of the most 264 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: interesting things I've ever seen in my life is the 265 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: Kasumber Lesser border between Zambia and the Congo. That in 266 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: essence is where the biggest problem is. Um You've got 267 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: on the Zambian side a queue of trucks waiting to 268 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: cross into the Democratic Republic of Congo about fifty kilometers long. 269 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,160 Speaker 1: So that's where the title of your story comes. That's 270 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: about thirty two miles. So there's thirty two mile long 271 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: queue of trucks all just waiting to get underwet. Yeah, 272 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: and these drivers are there for days. I mean as 273 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: as long as a week it takes to cross that border. 274 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: Why does it take so long across the border? The 275 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: growth in production out of the copper mines in the 276 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of Congo has been so large that the 277 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: customs officials haven't been able to keep up, So it 278 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: takes that long just to get your papers and make 279 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,239 Speaker 1: it all officials so that you can then just hit 280 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 1: the road exactly. The border process is extremely slow and 281 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: these drivers spend as long as a week waiting in 282 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: these queues. So what are they doing? I mean they're 283 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: sitting in trucks. Where do they sleep? How do they eat? 284 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: What is the scene like there? Everything's just centered around 285 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 1: the cow and of their truck. That's their home. And 286 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: bear in mind that there's this is rural rural Africa. 287 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: In many stretches of of the queue, there's not even villages. 288 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: So these these drivers are just sitting chatting to the 289 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: other drivers. There's no toilets, there's no showers, there's no 290 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: real formal shops or restaurants. This is rural Africa that 291 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: these guys are sitting in. End. I mean the temperatures 292 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: there in the summertime get extremely hot. And in your 293 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: story you talk about how a whole informal economy has 294 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: grown up around serving these drivers needs at the Kasumber 295 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 1: Lesser border itself. It's extremely interesting because you've you've got 296 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: this hive of activity that sprung up around um just 297 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: this cross border commerce between the Zambie and Congo, a 298 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: lot of it being almost all of it being because 299 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: of the mining industry. So you've got guys walking around 300 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: in modified, heavily modified bicycles. They don't even have seats. 301 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: They just built to transport goods, water, cookies, or even 302 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: charcoal that the truck drivers and other people used to 303 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: cook their food. There's just this whole hive of informal 304 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: economy that's trying to make money off the truck drivers 305 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: who have not much choice of how to fill their 306 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: bellies or where to get drinking water and that sort 307 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: of thing. You talked to a lot of the drivers 308 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: while they were just sitting there waiting to get underway. 309 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: What did they have to say about their lives. Well, 310 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: they are very appreciative of how and the scriptive of 311 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: how tough their jobs are. Most of them are very 312 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: eager to speak to me because they have an incredibly 313 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: difficult job and they want to tell people about that. 314 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: One of the things that the drivers were most eager 315 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: to speak about is just how dangerous it is for 316 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: them to cross into the Democratic Republic of Congo. They 317 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: complained bitterly about police corruption there, basically police demanding that 318 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: they pay bribes. It's number one corruption and because the 319 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: police there, even if you haven't done nothing, they can 320 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: even come to your truck and my brother, ah, I 321 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 1: can see your light is not okay. He hasn't even 322 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: checked the truck. So you must have something on the 323 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:42,120 Speaker 1: on the road. No money, ah, you can die. There's 324 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 1: also a problem of crime. When the drivers are sitting 325 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: there with their trucks are sort of like sitting nuts 326 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: for thieves. Yeah, exactly. Um And a few of the 327 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: drives that I spoke to raise that issue, one of 328 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: them said that he basically has to sleep with one 329 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 1: eye open because especially this year, with the rocketing price 330 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: of diesel UM, that's also made the diesel in their 331 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: trucks a very lucrative target for thieves. You does sleep 332 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: like absolutely pink because sometimes when you hear someone who 333 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: move around that outside, you wake up. And then if 334 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 1: they're able to make it through and it reaches port, 335 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: then what happens Earlier this year, the port of Durban 336 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: in South Africa, which is the port that the mining 337 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: companies rely on more than any other in the region 338 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: to export their copper, that the port of Durbon was 339 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: hit by floods not seen in decades. The floods not 340 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: only killed more than four people, but they caused severe 341 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: damage to the port. The damage that these floods caused 342 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 1: has only made matters worse. When I visited the port 343 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: earlier this year, it was still recovering from the floods. 344 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: They washed away roads and damaged warehouses. It's very difficult 345 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: to explain how bad the damage was. So if these 346 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: drivers are waiting as long as two weeks just to 347 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: get out of Congo and into Zambia, and then they 348 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: have to go on this very dangerous and long trek 349 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: down to port, how long does it on average take 350 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: to get a load of copper from the mind to 351 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: the port? From the companies that I spoke to this year, 352 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: they considered about a month of fairly average time. Matt 353 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: Is the world's demand increases for this copper, it seems 354 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: like this is not a process that can go on 355 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: and forever. They're going to have to do something about 356 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: this to make it more efficient. Is there anything actually 357 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: being done to ease the supply eyeline from the mind 358 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: to the ports so that it is not this just 359 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: like mad Max like story that you've described here, This 360 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: is the billion dollar question. So far, what companies have 361 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: been doing to try solve the problem of congestion is 362 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: to throw more trucks at it, which of course only 363 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: makes more congestion. Ultimately, the most sustainable solution is to 364 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: improve rail connectivity. That's what a lot of the mining 365 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: companies have been saying. They need to be able to 366 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: move more of the logistics onto rail. But building rail 367 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: is expensive and it takes a long time. Is there 368 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: actually plans to do that now? I mean, the Congolese 369 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: government a few months ago unveiled an investment plan of 370 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: about fifty eight billion dollars to upgrade their countries infrastructure. 371 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: A lot of that is required both road and rail. 372 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: The Zambian government already has a railway line connecting the 373 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: copper belt to the port of Darius Salem in Tanzania, 374 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: but that's fallen into complete disrepair, so that's going to 375 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: take a lot of investment to get the upper end 376 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: and running again. There's also a railway connectivity from the 377 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: Zambian copper belt to the port of Durban, but once 378 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: again that's going to need a lot of investment. It's 379 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: not that there will be one solution, but probably a 380 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: number of different solutions which will require investment from both 381 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 1: the governments involved as well as private companies to make 382 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: sure that there is a sustainable way to get the 383 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: copper out of this resource that the world desperately needs 384 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: over the next couple of decades to the places that 385 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: needed Matt Hill, thanks for coming on the show. Thank 386 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: you very much for having me up. Really enjoy talking 387 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: about this. You can read more about Matthew Hill's journey 388 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: to the Zambie and coppermine and see photos of his 389 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: trip at Bloomberg dot com. That's also where you'll find 390 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: the latest reporting from Yvon Lee and James Atwood. Thanks 391 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: for listening to us here at The Big Take, the 392 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For more 393 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: shows from my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, 394 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Read today's story and 395 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 1: subscribe to our daily newsletter at Bloomberg dot com slash 396 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,160 Speaker 1: Big Take, and we'd love to hear from you. Email 397 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: us with questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg 398 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take is 399 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our producers 400 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: are Moe Barrow and Michael Falerro Hill de Garcia is 401 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin. I'm Westcosova. Have 402 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: a great weekend.