Speaker 1: Earlier this summer, my father, Jonathan and my stepmam Marylyn
Speaker 1: came to visit me in nowrk New Jersey. They were
Speaker 1: coming to spend some quality time with me and my son,
Speaker 1: but their timing couldn't have been better. I had news
Speaker 1: to share, so I sat them down at my kitchen table.
Speaker 1: All right, So I'm so excited to be able to
Speaker 1: talk to you guys. Because anyway, so I was sitting there.
Speaker 1: Two days earlier, I had gottenn email on ancestry dot
Speaker 1: com from someone saying he was a distant cousin and
Speaker 1: that he has something to tell me our family and
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's family. So I asked him, Hey, you know,
Speaker 1: nice to hear from you. I see we have some
Speaker 1: matches in common. Do you know something that I don't know?
Speaker 1: This cousin his name is Dennis. He lives in California.
Speaker 1: He'd heard I've been trying to find out if Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace and I were actually related. So he started telling
Speaker 1: me certain ancestors I should look at. He said, let's
Speaker 1: start with your matches to the days you matched Stephen
Speaker 1: Day and Patria Day. So I began following the line back,
Speaker 1: trying to figure out who he was leading me to.
Speaker 1: Now I had never even heard of the Days, But
Speaker 1: as I look up the tree, I see my great
Speaker 1: grandmother Isilina, the mother of my papa. She was born
Speaker 1: in Bravakabovia but came over to America in nineteen twenty
Speaker 1: a young mother with two small children. She passed on
Speaker 1: before I was born, so I never met her. But
Speaker 1: really I don't know much about my family beyond my
Speaker 1: papa's generation. Like my great grandmother Isilina, they were no
Speaker 1: longer alive by the time I arrived. And he says,
Speaker 1: I wonder why we didn't match it. I'm like, what
Speaker 1: is he talking about? So I do a search to
Speaker 1: figure out what this guy is talking about. Tatta, I
Speaker 1: now have the answer.
Speaker 2: But here's the thing.
Speaker 1: See, there was someone else connected to the Days, someone
Speaker 1: also very important to me, someone I've been searching for.
Speaker 1: Someone my newfound cousin, Dennis wanted me to see. So
Speaker 1: with my parents sitting there, I finally hear the news
Speaker 1: I've been looking for for years. So essentially, Daddy Grace
Speaker 1: would have been your grandmother's cousin. So her father and
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's father were first cousins.
Speaker 3: Wow, that is crazy.
Speaker 1: Wow, Wow, that's right. I felt it all along. Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace and I we're family. I'm Marcy Depina and from
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts and Force the media group.
Speaker 2: This is sweet.
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace, We're glad.
Speaker 4: We're being happy, Power, You're glad at.
Speaker 2: Last last roll until.
Speaker 4: Happen Crown and I cried, We're.
Speaker 5: Go.
Speaker 1: Before we talk more about this revelation, let's back up
Speaker 1: to early January nineteen sixty. The year rang in a
Speaker 1: feeling of change. There was a sense that something big
Speaker 1: was happening. Cameroon had just become an independent nation, and
Speaker 1: sixteen more African countries would follow. Later that year, JFK
Speaker 1: had announced he was running for president. Two hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty Black residents of Greenville, South Carolina, peacefully protested the
Speaker 1: segregation of the town's airport and yes, you better believe
Speaker 1: there was and still is, a house of prayer in
Speaker 1: Greenville and Motown's first hit record, Barrett Strong's money That's
Speaker 1: what I Want, was just about to enter the Billboard
Speaker 1: one hundred, changing the sound of pop music forever. Though
Speaker 1: he was almost eighty years old, Daddy Grace seemed to
Speaker 1: be at the height of his power, he still traveled frequently,
Speaker 1: still preached. He was still very much a leader of
Speaker 1: a thriving church. There's a letter he wrote to his congregation,
Speaker 1: dated January eighth, nineteen sixty, from Los Angeles. He did
Speaker 1: this kind of thing, often, sending missives to his followers
Speaker 1: from wherever he was in the world, checking in on them,
Speaker 1: making sure that they were on the right path. He writes,
Speaker 1: as my time on the West Coast is far spent.
Speaker 1: I must leave. I am expecting to leave Los Angeles, California,
Speaker 1: early Tuesday morning, January twelfth. Be ready because I am
Speaker 1: still flying. This is my sixth week here and I
Speaker 1: must go on to another kingdom. He then reminds his
Speaker 1: congregation that God is there to guide them and signs
Speaker 1: the letter much love to all Daddy. The letter is
Speaker 1: like many he wrote, but the date January eighth, nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty is significant. Later that day, while at home Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace suffered a major heart attack. He refused medical attention,
Speaker 1: but finally, as he lay in a semicoma, elders from
Speaker 1: the church took him to the Metropolitan Hospital. So when
Speaker 1: I read that letter, now I have to wonder did
Speaker 1: he know what was about to happen. He told his
Speaker 1: congregation he planned to leave Los Angeles in a few
Speaker 1: days time on January twelfth, to go to another kingdom.
Speaker 1: He kept that promise because in the early hours of
Speaker 1: January twelfth, nineteen sixty, Daddy Grace took his very last breath,
Speaker 1: and he did make one final voyage east. A few
Speaker 1: days later, Daddy Grace's body left Los Angeles. It was
Speaker 1: raining as the train pulled out of the station, which
Speaker 1: followers took as a sign it often rained during convocations,
Speaker 1: but Daddy Grace had said that water was a blessing.
Speaker 1: In his native kabovid Rien is always celebrated as a blessing.
Speaker 1: Six separate viewings were planned all on the East Coast
Speaker 1: in house of prayer strongholds like Charlotte, Washington, d C. Nork,
Speaker 1: and of course, New Bedford. The procession was covered in
Speaker 1: newspapers like the Boston Globe and the Charlotte Observer, as
Speaker 1: well as in a six page spread in Ebony. Men
Speaker 1: in fresh pressed white shirts stood guard around the bronze coffin,
Speaker 1: reported to cost twenty thousand dollars. Thousands of people both
Speaker 1: the religious and the curious black and white came to
Speaker 1: view the body and pay their respects.
Speaker 6: My father would not have been happy if he knew
Speaker 6: that that wrote it had taken me. I didn't say
Speaker 6: a word.
Speaker 1: I thought Judy was one of those people. She was
Speaker 1: a nursing student in Connecticut in nineteen sixty, but happened
Speaker 1: to be back in Massachusetts at the same time the
Speaker 1: funeral was happening in New Bedford. Her whole life, she'd
Speaker 1: heard so much about this man, all the whispers, all
Speaker 1: the criticism, and now here he was. My great aunt Rhoda,
Speaker 1: always an adventurous type, told Aunt Judy they were making
Speaker 1: a stop at the House of Prayer for the public viewing,
Speaker 1: and they weren't going to tell their family they were going.
Speaker 6: There was quite a procession, and then there was music,
Speaker 6: and there was a smell of food, and.
Speaker 1: They were curious, so they entered the church with the
Speaker 1: rest of the crowd to see Daddy Grace his body
Speaker 1: in repose.
Speaker 6: I can see him now, and his body was under
Speaker 6: a really sick glass, and he had like a green
Speaker 6: suit that looked like it was cut away, you know,
Speaker 6: the tails, and had braided piping around the edges of
Speaker 6: the lapel and so forth, and his hair was down
Speaker 6: to his shoulder lengths.
Speaker 1: But what she remembered most still to this day were
Speaker 1: his hands.
Speaker 6: It looked very uncomfortable and didn't look like normally you
Speaker 6: see the hands folded, but they were just on his thighs,
Speaker 6: and he had long nails, and they loaves were painted gold.
Speaker 6: It was just seemed like, you know, this is not appropriate,
Speaker 6: this isn't very reverent.
Speaker 1: I was actually quite shocked when my Aunt Judy told
Speaker 1: me the story. I know my grandfather would not have approved,
Speaker 1: and it was surprising to hear that my beloved Aunt
Speaker 1: Rhoda insisted that they go. I wondered why from everything
Speaker 1: I had heard my Papa, Aunt Roda's brother seemed to
Speaker 1: be so against Daddy Grace, his church and the influence
Speaker 1: on other family members, And of course that lingering story
Speaker 1: of how this self described boyfriend of the world tried
Speaker 1: to learn my nana his wife to join his congregation.
Speaker 1: So what motivated Aunt Rhoda to pay her respects to
Speaker 1: a man the family had tried so hard to distance
Speaker 1: themselves from. The idea of it all got my head spinning.
Speaker 1: The years after Daddy Grace's death were not easy ones
Speaker 1: for the United House of Prayer. It was reported that
Speaker 1: Bishop Grace's estate was worth between sixteen and twenty five
Speaker 1: million dollars when he died. Many people assumed that this
Speaker 1: was an exaggeration, but it's hard to know. Up until
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's death, the House of Prayer didn't file regular
Speaker 1: annual tax returns. That's common for registered religious organizations in
Speaker 1: the US, but for the IRS, it certainly made it
Speaker 1: very difficult to understand the House of Prayer's finances, as
Speaker 1: well as the economic relationship between Daddy Grace and his church.
Speaker 1: The church's real estate holdings were also complicated. Daddy Grace
Speaker 1: liked to exaggerate how much he paid for things when
Speaker 1: it suited him, and his bookkeeping was, shall we say, confusing.
Speaker 1: He and the church had a bunch of different lawyers
Speaker 1: and tax advisors, but not one person knew everything. The
Speaker 1: IRS was clearly not a fan of Daddy Grace's complicated
Speaker 1: business structures. They were certain he hadn't paid enough taxes.
Speaker 1: They didn't believe he was running a legitimate church. They
Speaker 1: had been after Daddy Grace since the nineteen thirties, and
Speaker 1: a month after he passed away, the IRS sued his
Speaker 1: estate for almost six million dollars. It was a big
Speaker 1: enough lawsuit that it made the Washington Post as well
Speaker 1: as into the discussion in a US House of Representative subcommittee.
Speaker 1: Perhaps my dad's assessment of Daddy Grace being like Donald
Speaker 1: Trump was not too far off. And on the religious front,
Speaker 1: things were complicated too. Though there was a detailed package
Speaker 1: of church by laws, there wasn't a clear succession plan.
Speaker 1: Soon after Daddy Grace's death, elders from the church voted
Speaker 1: on a new leader, Walter McCullough, who joined the House
Speaker 1: of Prayer as a young man and once had been
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's chauffeur. The vote, however, was instantly challenged other
Speaker 1: people wanted to lead the church and argued their case.
Speaker 1: Bishop McCullough was eventually voted back in, but those years
Speaker 1: were chaotic, and the IRIS drama tied up funds and
Speaker 1: limited the new bishop's ability to travel and make moves,
Speaker 1: and as happens in many families, most contentious was Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace's will, which had been written in nineteen forty eight
Speaker 1: and not updated since he divided. Around seventy thousand dollars
Speaker 1: among twelve of his family members, some siblings, nieces, and
Speaker 1: two children. The rest went to the church. As you
Speaker 1: might imagine, many people weren't happy about this. His first wife, Jeanie,
Speaker 1: and daughter Irene sued Daddy Grace's estate. They eventually settled
Speaker 1: for a reported two hundred thousand dollars each. His son
Speaker 1: Marcellino also sued, but his case, for one reason or another,
Speaker 1: was dismissed. Some members of his family even signed a
Speaker 1: publishing contract, perhaps hoping to capitalize on Daddy Grace's story.
Speaker 1: But as far as I know, the book never came out,
Speaker 1: and despite all the turmoil, the church persisted. From a
Speaker 1: spiritual perspective, the church claimed that the spirit of Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace jumped into the body of the new bishop, now
Speaker 1: called Daddy McCullough, and this ordained him to lead with
Speaker 1: the same power and authority. The foundational bylaws that Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace established were the blueprint for the doctrine and business
Speaker 1: of the church. Although these were rocky times, the house
Speaker 1: that Daddy built stood firm. When Daddy Grace died, a
Speaker 1: lot of things were left unanswered for his congregation, his family,
Speaker 1: the public, and the Cape Verdian community, A lot of
Speaker 1: things were unanswered for me too. Now I had proof
Speaker 1: that we were related through my father's great grandfather, Jose
Speaker 1: and Cararasan de Grasa Gonzelsh. Stick with me, but here
Speaker 1: it goes. Jose and Daddy Grace's father were first cousins.
Speaker 1: Simply put, if you trace down through the generations, Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace is my second cousin, three times removed on the
Speaker 1: Depina side of my family. My father didn't even know
Speaker 1: his great grandfather Jose, but he did know Jose's daughter,
Speaker 1: his grandmother Iselina, She was also Daddy Grace's second cousin.
Speaker 1: All of these family members lived within walking distance of
Speaker 1: each other on the island of Brava, which at the
Speaker 1: time in the late eighteen hundreds had a population of
Speaker 1: around eight thousand people. But if Isilena knew Daddy Grace
Speaker 1: was family, she kept it to herself. As far as
Speaker 1: I know, she never told anyone.
Speaker 3: But why the more we share, or that you're sharing
Speaker 3: with us about our ancestry and connection to SDG makes
Speaker 3: me come to the realization that the Penis were fairly
Speaker 3: secretive and that there are some deep, deep secrets within
Speaker 3: the family.
Speaker 2: That's my dad again.
Speaker 1: I was talking to him and my stepmom trying to
Speaker 1: understand why we had only just learned about this connection.
Speaker 3: How again with Isilina not know? I mean, again, the
Speaker 3: place is only this big.
Speaker 1: I mean, the only thing I can come up with
Speaker 1: is that they just didn't want to admit that they
Speaker 1: were related to them. That's the only thing that I
Speaker 1: can come up with, because some of the family members
Speaker 1: clearly felt like this church was wacky and they didn't
Speaker 1: want anything to do with it. You know, cap Verdian's
Speaker 1: are our reputation is everything, so it's like right.
Speaker 3: And at that time, I could imagine that, you know,
Speaker 3: between the work situation, trying to raise a family to
Speaker 3: stay employed, you didn't want to mess with that. You
Speaker 3: were already a foreigner and a foreigner of color. You
Speaker 3: don't want to bring any of that to you, you know.
Speaker 7: And we also have to remember that we're part of
Speaker 7: a time when everybody reveals everything about themselves, and there's
Speaker 7: just all this where even my own parents and certainly
Speaker 7: my grandparents U they just they kept things to themselves.
Speaker 7: But that was with us social mores and it's just
Speaker 7: deliberately not putting everything out there the way we do
Speaker 7: now in terms of identity and personal problems, and so
Speaker 7: the fact that Somethina never talked about it doesn't mean
Speaker 7: that she didn't know.
Speaker 1: I think my dad and stepmom are right. My family
Speaker 1: must have known about this connection, but they didn't want
Speaker 1: to publicly admit it. I was glad to have that
Speaker 1: confirmation that there was a blood relation, and I still
Speaker 1: wanted to learn more about the man himself. I couldn't
Speaker 1: believe he was actually so terrible, just a little eccentric.
Speaker 1: With so many people that loved him, he couldn't be
Speaker 1: that bad. But who knows, Maybe I was wrong. The
Speaker 1: problem was I was having a really hard time finding
Speaker 1: anyone who actually knew him personally. Daddy Grace died in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty, so at this point many of the people
Speaker 1: who knew him have already passed away, and those who
Speaker 1: were still around, like his grandson who was a pastor
Speaker 1: of a different church, or my cousin who was one
Speaker 1: of Daddy Grace's maids when she was a young girl,
Speaker 1: didn't want to be interviewed. I tried the connections I
Speaker 1: made at the United House of Prayer, but they have
Speaker 1: a very strict media policy, and because of that, no
Speaker 1: one would speak to me on the record. I'd almost
Speaker 1: given up hope, but finally I found them.
Speaker 8: My name is Marilyn Gonsiles. You have a nickname, Yes,
Speaker 8: it's Footfe.
Speaker 2: Yes, I heard you had a nickname Fuffy? Who calls
Speaker 2: you Fuffy?
Speaker 8: Everybody?
Speaker 1: Can I call you f fee?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 8: You may.
Speaker 2: I love that. The Cape Verdian nicknames. I have one too, Yeah,
Speaker 2: my father's TOOKIESA.
Speaker 8: I love that.
Speaker 1: So first, if you could just tell me what is
Speaker 1: your relation to Daddy Grace.
Speaker 8: I'm his great niece. My grandmother and Daddy Grace they
Speaker 8: were brother and sisters.
Speaker 1: Fuffy is eighty years old, but she looks much younger.
Speaker 1: She still lives in New Bedford, the city she grew
Speaker 1: up in, in the historic home that Daddy Grace purchased
Speaker 1: for her grandmother, Sylvia. She's elegant and gracious, and the
Speaker 1: moment I stepped into her house, she offered me some
Speaker 1: coffee and Langresa rolls. When she was a little girl,
Speaker 1: she'd seen a lot of Daddy Grace. She'd seen him preach,
Speaker 1: eaten meals with him. Her grandmother, Sylvia, was Daddy Grace's
Speaker 1: right hand traveling with him frequently, preparing his meals and
Speaker 1: assisting in the spiritual leadership of the church bands and kitchens.
Speaker 1: What are some memories that you might have of him.
Speaker 8: Well as a young child growing up, I remember Daddy
Speaker 8: Grace coming to New Bedford quite frequently, and he bought
Speaker 8: this beautiful oh home on County Street, beautiful mansion. It
Speaker 8: was a huge place. I used to enjoy going there,
Speaker 8: just to go around the grounds, the gazebo, and he
Speaker 8: had a pony. And I remember my mother and my
Speaker 8: aunt Marie, they were the cooks when he came home,
Speaker 8: and I would help them set the table for Daddy
Speaker 8: Grace and he would always have company come and sit
Speaker 8: with him to eat.
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace seemed to be constantly on the move, traveling
Speaker 1: around the country visiting his congregations, but New Bedford always
Speaker 1: held a special place in his heart, especially during Convocation season,
Speaker 1: the church's annual celebration July.
Speaker 8: It would be the start of Convocation and a lot
Speaker 8: of people would come from the South and he'd have
Speaker 8: services at the House of Prayer and it was always
Speaker 8: open seven days a week. Had to go to church.
Speaker 8: I used to go to church every night with my
Speaker 8: grandmother and I always enjoyed the services, you know, the
Speaker 8: music and his preaching, and he was very charismatic. Really,
Speaker 8: the services that the House of Prayer were really invigorating
Speaker 8: a lot of the young people that lived in the neighborhood.
Speaker 8: They would be outside dancing while the music was playing,
Speaker 8: you know, in the House of Prayer, and the numbers
Speaker 8: were shouting and having a good time.
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you a little bit about
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace as a religious person. Can you tell me
Speaker 1: a little bit about his faith?
Speaker 8: Well, he was very religious and when he preached, he
Speaker 8: would quote from the Bible without looking at it, and
Speaker 8: he was a good preacher. He enjoyed his services because
Speaker 8: he was interesting and he would explain everything that was
Speaker 8: in the Bible to you so you could understand it.
Speaker 8: He loved people, he really did, and he just, I
Speaker 8: don't know, like a magnet. They loved him, you know,
Speaker 8: and he would go to different homes and pray for them.
Speaker 1: But what I really wanted to know from Fuffey, what
Speaker 1: was Daddy Grace like beyond his public persona Who was
Speaker 1: he to his family? So I have to ask you
Speaker 1: this because I'm curious, did Daddy Grace have a Cape
Speaker 1: Verdian nickname.
Speaker 8: No, not that I know. Well, his name was Charles
Speaker 8: Emmanuel Grace, but you know, my Grahama called him Charlie.
Speaker 1: Oh see, I didn't know that. That's interesting. And what
Speaker 1: did you call him dad?
Speaker 9: Dad?
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, the family, we all called him dad.
Speaker 1: But Fuffy pointed out that this name dad Daddy was
Speaker 1: controversial even within the New Bedford Cape Verdian community.
Speaker 8: They said, why why do people have to call him
Speaker 8: daddy Grace, He's not your father. He was criticized mainly
Speaker 8: by his own people. Cape Verdian people. A lot of
Speaker 8: them didn't believe in him. They didn't believe what he
Speaker 8: was doing was right, and at times, you know, and
Speaker 8: people made fun of him way he dressed as long
Speaker 8: hair as nails. There were people in the family that
Speaker 8: didn't want to be recognized that they were related to him.
Speaker 8: But you know, I love the way he dressed. I
Speaker 8: loved his suits they were beautiful, and his big top hats.
Speaker 1: That's one of the things that I love the most
Speaker 1: about him was that he seemed unapologetic. He seemed to
Speaker 1: just be himself. He was and you know, growing up
Speaker 1: in a Cape Verdian community.
Speaker 2: I know how harsh Cape Verdians can be.
Speaker 1: And all it takes is one time for people to
Speaker 1: say something about you and it sticks with you for
Speaker 1: the rest of your life exactly.
Speaker 2: And I know how you know tough that can be.
Speaker 1: So I always wondered how he may have felt about
Speaker 1: having that criticism from his own people.
Speaker 2: That must have been difficult for him.
Speaker 8: He felt bad about that. He says, my own people
Speaker 8: don't treat me right. Why And it was said, I know.
Speaker 8: I had to be hurting for him, but he just
Speaker 8: kept plugging and a lung and just built the churches everywhere.
Speaker 8: It was all the church people.
Speaker 1: Though I was hoping Fuffy might be able to tell
Speaker 1: me about his friends or some hidden pastime Daddy Grace had,
Speaker 1: I wasn't totally surprised to hear this. He had a
Speaker 1: strained relationship with much of his family. His two marriages
Speaker 1: had ended in divorce, and he was partially estranged from
Speaker 1: his two children the family. He had strong relationships with
Speaker 1: people like Fuffy's grandmother, his sister Sylvia. They were all
Speaker 1: members of the church. He was good to those relatives.
Speaker 1: He purchased a large building in New Bedford for his
Speaker 1: family to run businesses out of He bought homes for
Speaker 1: his parents, his nieces and nephews, his siblings, or would
Speaker 1: support them financially, but his focus and his life was
Speaker 1: the church. I just had one final question for Fuffy.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that you would like the world to
Speaker 1: know about Daddy Grace that maybe people don't know about?
Speaker 8: Well? I would appreciate it if people would really respect
Speaker 8: who he was and respect what he did. He didn't
Speaker 8: do it for himself, and just wish that they would
Speaker 8: remember him as a generous, kind person and religious man,
Speaker 8: which he was, and not criticize what he did or
Speaker 8: make fun of what he did. I just want him
Speaker 8: to be remembered as a decent human being, which he was.
Speaker 1: Right before I finished up this episode, I was able
Speaker 1: to speak to another one of Daddy Grace's great nieces,
Speaker 1: Marlene Tavars. Marlene is ninety years old now and has
Speaker 1: spent much of her life working in New Bedford as
Speaker 1: a housing activist, something she says she got from Daddy Grace,
Speaker 1: who also worked to make sure his congregation had affordable homes.
Speaker 1: Welcome me into her home in the housing development she
Speaker 1: helped build in nineteen seventy four, and immediately we felt
Speaker 1: like family. I met her only daughter and her great grandson.
Speaker 1: We spent time looking over family photos and her collection
Speaker 1: of articles, documents, and books about her family, including Daddy Grace.
Speaker 1: Her grandfather, Caesar is the same Caesar Grace that lived
Speaker 1: right across from my great grandfather, Nola Locke. He had
Speaker 1: helped Daddy Grace build the very first House of Prayer
Speaker 1: in West Wareham. Marlene grew up in the House of
Speaker 1: Prayer and had a special connection with her great uncle.
Speaker 9: I loved him. I think of him as my grandfather.
Speaker 9: I've renumber one morning, early in the morning, he got up,
Speaker 9: came to the apartment and made me breakfast, made hot
Speaker 9: chocolate and everything. And usually people who would make him
Speaker 9: breakfast instead he made alice.
Speaker 2: It's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yes, you'd never think of Daddy Grace like that, right,
Speaker 1: because you know, everybody always says, oh, he has all
Speaker 1: these people attending to him.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's so beautiful.
Speaker 9: Yes, make it hot chocolate.
Speaker 2: Yeah it must have been sweet.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: But Marlene remembers seeing the stories about him and the press,
Speaker 1: the lies, the exaggerations, not at all reflective of the
Speaker 1: man that she knew.
Speaker 9: And I used to say, oh, man, I know, but
Speaker 9: I know, I wish I could get out there and
Speaker 9: straighten it out and everything.
Speaker 1: That must been frustrating. But he never really corrected the
Speaker 1: stories either. It seems like he just said, forget it,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna Yeah, he just let them.
Speaker 9: Yeah. Yeah, he never did. He used to know that
Speaker 9: a lot of the stories were not true, that he
Speaker 9: just would love him. Yeah, he said the work out,
Speaker 9: Yeah it did.
Speaker 2: So he had a lot of faith.
Speaker 9: Yes.
Speaker 1: In my conversations with Fuffy and Marlene, one thing that
Speaker 1: stood out to me was that they both talked about
Speaker 1: how generous Daddy Grace was, which is important because I
Speaker 1: don't think he gets enough credit for that. Yes, his
Speaker 1: focus was on making sure his congregation was taken care of,
Speaker 1: but in addition to the church and helping his family,
Speaker 1: he contributed to other things he cared about. For example,
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty seven, Kaboved experienced a terrible drought, one
Speaker 1: of the worst on record, but Daddy Grace during that
Speaker 1: year raised collections to send money back there. I'm certain
Speaker 1: that without that aid, many more people would have died
Speaker 1: during one of the worst famines of the century. He
Speaker 1: also regularly sent bedones or barrels that are stopped to
Speaker 1: supplies back to cableverd.
Speaker 9: Hear a new veford at the waterfront. He have a
Speaker 9: ship and he would go and r and buy stuff
Speaker 9: and full that ship up to center. The old country
Speaker 9: always to death, and he needs to go down the
Speaker 9: waterfront and make sure that everything got on the boat
Speaker 9: and make sure and then wave it goodbye.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 9: I never forgot his people.
Speaker 8: Never.
Speaker 1: That's the kind of information that's been lost amid the
Speaker 1: talks of his riches and flamboyant. That's the kind of
Speaker 1: information that falls to the wayside when people would rather
Speaker 1: sensationalize all the things about Daddy Grace that caused a stir.
Speaker 1: It's the kind of information that gets omitted from history
Speaker 1: when people villainize him as a cult leader and reduce
Speaker 1: him to an opportunist. I wish Daddy Grace would have
Speaker 1: talked more to the press about the charitable deeds that
Speaker 1: he and his church had done, because in some ways,
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace's own silence gave space for rumors to grow.
Speaker 1: I think I understand why Daddy Grace didn't give many interviews.
Speaker 1: He'd seen too many times how his words and actions
Speaker 1: were twisted by the press, but this secrecy is also
Speaker 1: part of his legacy. It's part of what makes him
Speaker 1: an enigma, which has made it that much harder to
Speaker 1: uncover the truth and to find people who could talk
Speaker 1: about the kind of man he actually was, like his
Speaker 1: great nieces Fuffy and Marlene. I mentioned this to my
Speaker 1: cousin Jonathan, the one who first told me the story
Speaker 1: about Nolo Locke threatening Daddy Grace with the acts. Well,
Speaker 1: I have to say that in doing this podcast, a
Speaker 1: lot of people didn't want to talk to me. A
Speaker 1: lot of people that it were either in the church,
Speaker 1: some of our family members didn't want to talk. They'll talk,
Speaker 1: but they don't want to be recorded. They don't want
Speaker 1: to be identified. It's no wonder why with all of
Speaker 1: the controversy around Daddy Grace and him being in the
Speaker 1: papers all the time and it not ever being positive.
Speaker 1: No wonder why nobody wanted to be associated, especially knowing
Speaker 1: how conservative Cape Verdians can be. Daddy Grace to me,
Speaker 1: he reminds me of a couple of people, but he
Speaker 1: reminds me a lot of Muhammad Alley. Oh really, because
Speaker 1: he had these singers and he would say things like,
Speaker 1: apparently he used to brush his hair, and he would
Speaker 1: tell people that if you.
Speaker 2: Bought the palm made that they sold in the story.
Speaker 1: That your hair would be long and pretty like his.
Speaker 1: And he never shunned away from being called wealthy. He
Speaker 1: never shunned it from being called successful. He didn't hide it.
Speaker 1: He was like, yes, I am great. And that makes
Speaker 1: me think of Muhammad Ali because everybody said he was
Speaker 1: cocky and all this other stuff. People didn't like him
Speaker 1: for this right because they didn't like his mouth. But
Speaker 1: he stepped into his greatness and he wasn't afraid of it,
Speaker 1: and he was I don't care who knows, I am
Speaker 1: going to say that I'm the greatest. And he made
Speaker 1: himself the greatest, did He Sure did? And I think
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace was the same exact way. I think he
Speaker 1: made himself great.
Speaker 8: You know what?
Speaker 5: That makes me think of my mother always saying don't
Speaker 5: say I can't do this or I can't do that.
Speaker 5: She's like, you can do these things, and don't just
Speaker 5: burn yourself by cut yourself short. You should be speaking
Speaker 5: these great things in existence for yourself.
Speaker 9: Mm hm.
Speaker 5: Words have power, she said, speak it into existence.
Speaker 1: Words do have power. This is one of the mantras
Speaker 1: in my life. Power to transform a poor immigrant from
Speaker 1: Kabuvid into a millionaire. But words also have the power
Speaker 1: to start rumors or to be withheld, to keep secrets.
Speaker 1: I figured my dad would have some perspective on this
Speaker 1: as well. So, you know, one of the things that's
Speaker 1: come up is, you know, why did I want to
Speaker 1: make this podcast and why I wanted to understand the
Speaker 1: connection between our family and Daddy Grace. And the main
Speaker 1: reason why was because of the stories that I heard
Speaker 1: as a kid, like this story that was always swirling
Speaker 1: around this mysterious figure that tried to take Nana on
Speaker 1: the road with him, you know. And so you know,
Speaker 1: there's definitely a connection. But to me, it matters less
Speaker 1: if we're actually related to him or not, Like it's
Speaker 1: less of it's not really about that for me.
Speaker 8: And yes, that's right, it's.
Speaker 3: It's about sharing his legacy. I mean, obviously a very
Speaker 3: very important person to the Cape Ritian community, regardless of
Speaker 3: what people may think. Let's face it, a person of
Speaker 3: color in the early twentieth century doing what he did
Speaker 3: and to be that successful and ultimately help many, many,
Speaker 3: many many people deserves exactly what you were doing.
Speaker 2: I think so too.
Speaker 1: That's why it's important to me because there's so much
Speaker 1: controversy around him, and because so many Cape Verdians really
Speaker 1: were embarrassed by him, and the church is so closed
Speaker 1: and afraid us talking about things that I feel like,
Speaker 1: if I don't talk about this, his story is going
Speaker 1: to get lost completely. And the other thing too, that
Speaker 1: like really has come up for me a lot throughout
Speaker 1: making this is the idea of family history and how
Speaker 1: the elders didn't talk about a lot of stuff like
Speaker 1: I never heard anybody really talk about really where they
Speaker 1: came from or who their people were or and then
Speaker 1: if they didn't pass on those stories to you, then
Speaker 1: how would you be able to pass them on to me?
Speaker 1: And so this idea, especially when slavery's involved and where
Speaker 1: people's origin stories are, you know, completely obscured because of history,
Speaker 1: Like it's so easy to lose your history. I just
Speaker 1: get the feeling that there was like a lot of
Speaker 1: things that maybe were painful, like maybe they left painful
Speaker 1: situations like asking Papa, do you want to go back
Speaker 1: to Copvid and be like no, absolutely not.
Speaker 2: Did he ever talk to you about what it was
Speaker 2: like for him as a little.
Speaker 3: Kid, Yeah, but not that much. Really, he saw nowhere
Speaker 3: to go, nowhere to go. He was able to escape
Speaker 3: and really didn't look back, didn't look back at all.
Speaker 1: This podcast has been way more difficult than I ever thought.
Speaker 1: I thought this was going to be easy. I was like,
Speaker 1: I already know everything there is to know. I have
Speaker 1: family stories, I have this story. I grew up right
Speaker 1: around the corner from the hospital. I know all there
Speaker 1: was to know.
Speaker 2: I really did.
Speaker 1: I thought it was gonna be easy, and it's actually
Speaker 1: been emotional. So it's been hard to delve into the memories,
Speaker 1: but it's also been really.
Speaker 2: Great to do.
Speaker 1: So what do you think it would have been like
Speaker 1: if Nana would have went with Daddy Grace, Like, because
Speaker 1: it sounds like, I don't know, it sounds like she
Speaker 1: might have gone.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that's right. I think that there was
Speaker 3: you know, there was some definite interest in going, and
Speaker 3: her father was new way you were not going. But
Speaker 3: let's face it, I mean, here was a young woman
Speaker 3: who was raising a family, cooking him, washing clothes and
Speaker 3: doing all this stuff. That would have been a nice
Speaker 3: thing for her to.
Speaker 9: Do with some rich man.
Speaker 8: Yeah, right, fancy guard.
Speaker 3: Yeah right, So yeah, I can see how a young
Speaker 3: woman would think that that's fun, like, yeah, let's go
Speaker 3: do this, but a very naive young woman also, So
Speaker 3: I definitely went on. I understand my grandfather's concerned because
Speaker 3: if it was you and I had to make that decision,
Speaker 3: I would make the same decision.
Speaker 1: Chase Staddy Grace sound with an axe, because that's what they.
Speaker 2: Said happened, right, So.
Speaker 3: You know, I get it.
Speaker 1: I get what my dad was saying, because if I'm
Speaker 1: being honest, there has always been something weighing on me
Speaker 1: the entire time that I've been making this podcast.
Speaker 9: My papa.
Speaker 1: He died when I was eight years old, but I
Speaker 1: still look to him for guidance. He had to tested
Speaker 1: Daddy Grace. He thought he was an embarrassment to Cape
Speaker 1: Verdian's and to his family. And so even though I
Speaker 1: didn't agree with him about Daddy Grace, I was worried
Speaker 1: about having his approval. I was hoping my dad might
Speaker 1: have some insight. You know, here I am highlighting the
Speaker 1: story of this man. What if he wasn't a good person,
Speaker 1: What if he was a bad person?
Speaker 2: What if?
Speaker 1: And then I thought about Papa and how much he
Speaker 1: means to me, and would he have been upset with
Speaker 1: me that I'm making this you know podcast? And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I would never want to disappoint him
Speaker 1: or do something.
Speaker 3: Right being the man that he was about being honest
Speaker 3: and truthful, and he would support the idea of seeking
Speaker 3: the truth.
Speaker 1: I hope so, because that's the goal, right, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to prop Daddy Grace up to be somebody that
Speaker 1: he's not. I mean, I want to tell the story
Speaker 1: accurately but without judgment, and just present the facts and
Speaker 1: allow people to have their own, you know, understanding an
Speaker 1: opinion of him.
Speaker 2: What do you think about me in this pod?
Speaker 3: I think it's fantastic to take on the challenge of
Speaker 3: a man who wasn't very well documented and to find
Speaker 3: what kind of person he actually was and tell the
Speaker 3: story is.
Speaker 7: Honorable.
Speaker 3: So that's what I think.
Speaker 2: Thanks Dad, Thank you, I love you.
Speaker 10: The other folks, you can fash by goodbye, but you
Speaker 10: can't fash by the House of prep for all people
Speaker 10: and then get into heaven.
Speaker 1: On January seventh, nineteen sixty, the day before his heart attack,
Speaker 1: Daddy Grease recorded a live sermon on record. Technically It
Speaker 1: was called you Must be Born Again, but most people
Speaker 1: call it the Last Sermon. It was played as his
Speaker 1: eulogy in New Bedford.
Speaker 2: Church.
Speaker 1: Officials said no one but Daddy Grace should speak at
Speaker 1: his own funeral. He has a light Keith verdie In accent.
Speaker 1: It reminds me of my papa's voice and a lot
Speaker 1: of the old timers in the family.
Speaker 4: We want to speak a little more, a little more language.
Speaker 4: Wag him up, ay man.
Speaker 10: When we all get said, we don't full of one another?
Speaker 11: Do it because we brothers and sisters. We don't work hard.
Speaker 11: We're a little bit together. Stretch because you put yours here,
Speaker 11: I put mine here.
Speaker 1: I still have so many questions for Daddy Grace, like
Speaker 1: what he thought about the keep verdie In community's rejection
Speaker 1: of him, how he felt about his life and his
Speaker 1: purpose and reconciling being a human being and a man
Speaker 1: with a spiritual mission, if he was happy about how
Speaker 1: things turned out, if he might have done things differently,
Speaker 1: what he thinks about how the church carried on with things,
Speaker 1: and more importantly, what he might think about me and
Speaker 1: me doing this podcast and telling his story, and how
Speaker 1: he felt about my immediate family, my Nana, my Papa,
Speaker 1: my Nola Locke. I might not ever get those answers
Speaker 1: because Daddy Grace didn't write a memoir, He never gave
Speaker 1: personal interviews, his family never did end up publishing any
Speaker 1: books about him and his church, the United House of
Speaker 1: Prayer for All People. It's pretty closed off to anyone
Speaker 1: who isn't a member. Except for this sermon. We don't
Speaker 1: have much of Daddy Grace's voice.
Speaker 4: You got little how's the prayer?
Speaker 11: Bick empower alta albapri kick start all up for gaver.
Speaker 4: Oh, we'll have genre. But my little bet, your little bet.
Speaker 1: But I do hope now that in my own way,
Speaker 1: I've given Daddy Grace a way to tell his story.
Speaker 1: Sweet Daddy Grace is a production of iHeart Podcasts and
Speaker 1: Force and Media Group. This show is hosted by Me
Speaker 1: Marcy Depina. It's written and produced by Marissa Brown and Me.
Speaker 1: Our story editors are Darryl Stewart, Duncan Riedel, and Zarren Burnett. Editing,
Speaker 1: sound design and theme music by Jonathan Washington, Additional editing
Speaker 1: by Matt Russell. Show cover art by Viviana Salgado of
Speaker 1: Studio Creative Group. Fact checking by Austin Thompson. Our executive
Speaker 1: producers are Marcy Depina and Jason English. Special Thanks to
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Nikki Ettore, Ali Perry, Tamika Campbell, and Lulu
Speaker 1: Phillip of iHeartMedia, and all of my family members who
Speaker 1: talk to me for this show, my ancestors, the United
Speaker 1: House of Prayer for All People, and the countless number
Speaker 1: of people who shared their memories of Sweet Daddy Grace
Speaker 1: with me. Thanks also to doctor Marie Dollam and doctor
Speaker 1: Danielle brun Sigler, whose academic work on Sweet Daddy Grace
Speaker 1: has been incredibly helpful. And finally, I want to thank
Speaker 1: Bishop Grace himself for choosing me to tell his story.
Speaker 1: For more information on Bishop Charles M. Grace, check out
Speaker 1: the website Sweet Daddy Grace and follow me at Marcy
Speaker 1: Depina on all social platforms