WEBVTT - #521 Jason Flom with John "Divine G" Whitfield

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<v Speaker 1>On March twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight, outside of the

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<v Speaker 1>Brookline Housing Project, a drug deal went bad, resulting in

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<v Speaker 1>the shooting death of a guy named Jimmy CALIBERA Soon,

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<v Speaker 1>a notorious thief and cyrial informant named Richard Doyle ran

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<v Speaker 1>into one of the assailants, a guy named Howard Wesley,

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<v Speaker 1>and after their encounter, Doyle claimed that a guy who

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<v Speaker 1>lived at the Brookline Houses named John Whitfield, also known

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<v Speaker 1>as Divine G, was one of his shooters, and while

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<v Speaker 1>Harold Wesley admitted his own involvement, he vehemently denied Divines,

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<v Speaker 1>but Wesley died in jail before getting to say so

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<v Speaker 1>at Divines trial. This is wrongful Conviction. You're listening to

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<v Speaker 1>Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this and all the

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<v Speaker 1>LoVa for Good podcasts one week early and ad free

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<v Speaker 1>All right, welcome to a very special edition of Wrongful Conviction.

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<v Speaker 1>And I say that in all sincerity. We have not

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<v Speaker 1>one but two of my personal heroes here today. Jeffrey Deskovic,

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<v Speaker 1>who's been on the show before as an exonery. Now

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<v Speaker 1>he's back as the attorney for a man who's yet

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<v Speaker 1>to be exonerated, but is as innocent as could be

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<v Speaker 1>and will be exonerated with your expert help. Is that

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<v Speaker 1>fair to say, Jeff, you're to say, Jeff Deskovic, welcome

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<v Speaker 1>back to wrongful conviction.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much. And I do want to share

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<v Speaker 2>that I do represent the Vine also in collaboration with

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<v Speaker 2>Oscar Michelin.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's ironic that as other lawyers named Oscar because

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<v Speaker 1>the Vine was just nominated for an Oscar for his

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<v Speaker 1>film Sing Sing, So he's got Oscar covered in every direction.

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<v Speaker 1>Were you actually nominated for an Oscar or the film

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<v Speaker 1>was nominated?

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<v Speaker 3>No, I was nominated for Adaptive screen Well that's why

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<v Speaker 3>I went to the Oscars. You can't go to the

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<v Speaker 3>Oscars unless you're nominated, right, specifically, Yeah, sat next to

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<v Speaker 3>Ray find during the class photos.

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<v Speaker 4>It's incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this man is just different. Twenty five years

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<v Speaker 1>in prison, Oscar nominated, accomplished author, playwright. I mean he's

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<v Speaker 1>a healer, right, I mean, this is a guy who

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<v Speaker 1>brought peace to a place that desperately needed it through creativity.

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<v Speaker 1>Divine is out shopping a number of new screenplays that

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<v Speaker 1>he's written. All of us are looking forward to seeing

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<v Speaker 1>where you go next, because this guy is truly the limit.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry if I'm embarrassing you right now, but Divine, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just really honored that you're here on our show.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm honored to be here, man, thank you for inviting me.

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<v Speaker 4>And this is a New York story. You were born

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<v Speaker 4>in New York, right like me?

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, East New York is where I actually was born

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<v Speaker 3>and had lived in Kanas and Brownsville.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm a Brooklyn Night one hundred percent.

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<v Speaker 1>And you grew up in a time when New York,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in those areas, was experiencing a lot of turmoil.

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<v Speaker 1>But you, somehow or other, even back then, were working

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<v Speaker 1>on developing your artistic side. Right, Can you can tell

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<v Speaker 1>us a little bit about growing up in your teenage

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<v Speaker 1>years and what that was all like before everything went

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<v Speaker 1>off the rails.

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<v Speaker 3>I was kind of like a good kid. I was

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<v Speaker 3>one of them adventurous kids. I was all into really

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<v Speaker 3>positive and productive things. And I was around about eleven

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<v Speaker 3>twelve years old. I was so fascinated with Bruce Lee.

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<v Speaker 3>I used to make eight millimeters karate movies. Me and

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<v Speaker 3>my friend Frank Johnson, we used to make these karate

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<v Speaker 3>movies in charge our friends like a quarter a dollar.

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<v Speaker 3>That was an early state of my artistic energy. And

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<v Speaker 3>then I eventually started dancing. I became a really efficient dancer.

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<v Speaker 3>I actually I was recruited by a dance group called Realism,

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<v Speaker 3>and it was a semi professional group. I appeared on

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<v Speaker 3>television with Stephanie Mills. Y'all probably may remember the show

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<v Speaker 3>called Soap Factory Disco.

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<v Speaker 4>In nineteen seventy nine. It was an old show.

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<v Speaker 3>I appeared on two episodes with Stephanie Mills when she

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<v Speaker 3>was singing her song put Your Body in It.

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<v Speaker 4>I did shows with Neil.

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<v Speaker 3>Ward, Instant Funk, and a variety of other popular groups,

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<v Speaker 3>and I was pretty good at dancing.

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<v Speaker 4>Then.

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<v Speaker 3>At that time I also became a DJ and eventually

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<v Speaker 3>became probably one of Brookline's most famous DJs. It was

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<v Speaker 3>a group I had called mix Machine. Actually in the

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<v Speaker 3>movie sing scene they mentioned it. Coleman Domingo says, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>they used to call me mix Machine, and they mentioned

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<v Speaker 3>that name several times. And because of the dancing, eventually

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<v Speaker 3>I went to High School Performing Arts, and for those

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<v Speaker 3>who know high School Performing Arts, that's the fame school,

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<v Speaker 3>the famous Fame.

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<v Speaker 4>School from the movie Fan Yeah, from the movie Fame.

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<v Speaker 3>They filmed it in that particular school where I was at.

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<v Speaker 3>I really wanted to go there for acting, so I

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<v Speaker 3>got in with dance and I wanted to switch over

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<v Speaker 3>to acting. But eventually I left high school performing arts.

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<v Speaker 3>I just couldn't deal with all of the teasing, the bullying,

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<v Speaker 3>and I wasn't the type of person who really respond

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<v Speaker 3>well to abuse. I mean, I knew martial arts, I

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<v Speaker 3>got into a lot of so eventually I moved on

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<v Speaker 3>and went to Kanarsi High School, where I ultimately graduated.

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<v Speaker 4>While all that was going on, I.

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<v Speaker 3>Always kept a after school job, worked on the weekends

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<v Speaker 3>because as a DJ, I needed money to buy the records,

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<v Speaker 3>to buy the equipment, to keep things updated. That was

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<v Speaker 3>basically my life before my life, like you said, went

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<v Speaker 3>off the rails. And then I got into this accident.

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<v Speaker 3>It was severe, woke up in the hospital. It was

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<v Speaker 3>really damaged pretty bad. I couldn't work, and eventually I

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<v Speaker 3>even tried to go back to work. I started delivering pizzas.

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<v Speaker 3>I was Abdomino's pizza delivery boy, and eventually I had

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<v Speaker 3>to quit that job because of the injuries. It was

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<v Speaker 3>so much on me and the doctors telling them, you

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<v Speaker 3>can't work. My lawyer's telling me, you can't work. You

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<v Speaker 3>gotta let these injuries heal. Time go by, I couldn't

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<v Speaker 3>get unemployment, I couldn't get certain monies, and then I

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<v Speaker 3>made probably the biggest mistake of my life.

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<v Speaker 4>All my friends was in the game.

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<v Speaker 3>Hustling out in the street, and I was always able

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<v Speaker 3>to avoid it. But after that accident, I said, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>when I'm a sneak, out sell some drugs, and it

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<v Speaker 3>backfired on me. I didn't last two weeks on the

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<v Speaker 3>streets because I had no idea what I was doing.

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<v Speaker 3>I had copped out to the drug possession. I went

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<v Speaker 3>up state for one to three and out of the

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<v Speaker 3>clear blue Scott They brought me back down the Riker's

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<v Speaker 3>Allen and recharged me for a homicide, a homicide I

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<v Speaker 3>had absolutely nothing to do with.

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<v Speaker 1>It was about two months before Divine began his one

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<v Speaker 1>to three year bid for possession that this homicide had

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<v Speaker 1>occurred on March twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight, somewhere along

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<v Speaker 1>the stretch of one hundred and eighth Street that ran

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<v Speaker 1>through the Brookline Projects and much of what we know

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<v Speaker 1>comes from a recorded statement with one of the assailants,

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<v Speaker 1>a guy named Harold Wesley.

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<v Speaker 3>From what I understand, it was a drug deal gone bad.

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<v Speaker 3>It was between Shatik, Harold Wesley, an individual named Patrick,

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<v Speaker 3>and this guy named Jim. Harold Wesley calls him Jim Carabella,

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<v Speaker 3>but his actual name, according to the police reports, was

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<v Speaker 3>Rudolph MIGLARISI. What happened is the old Shatique drugs or something,

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<v Speaker 3>and Shatik wanted to drug ugs or the money, and

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<v Speaker 3>they started arguing over it, and Shatig says that he

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<v Speaker 3>pulls the gun, shoots him in the head, and then

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<v Speaker 3>he made Patrick stand there and pull the trigger. Then

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<v Speaker 3>they run and Harold Wessey says that he sees a

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<v Speaker 3>woman who was dressed in some sort of green coat

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<v Speaker 3>or something. That was Marjorie Shack, whom he says she

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<v Speaker 3>lived in that building on the third floor.

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<v Speaker 1>Divine only found out about this recording and Marjorie Shack

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<v Speaker 1>long after he had been convicted.

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<v Speaker 4>Come to find out.

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<v Speaker 3>We eventually tracked her down and Marjorie Shack also confirms

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<v Speaker 3>that she told the.

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<v Speaker 4>Police it wasn't me.

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<v Speaker 3>The police kept showing up pictures of me trying to

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<v Speaker 3>convince her that it was me, and she said, no,

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<v Speaker 3>it's not him, it's not him. The night that had happened,

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<v Speaker 3>I was across town at my stepfather's house over there

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<v Speaker 3>on Buffalo Avenue, and that night I remember coming in

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<v Speaker 3>and because the crime happened in the back of my building,

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<v Speaker 3>I've seen all the police ropes and police cars in

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<v Speaker 3>the back of my building, so obviously I knew something happened.

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<v Speaker 3>Next day, I'm hearing rumors in the neighborhood. Yo, some

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<v Speaker 3>guys from out of the neighborhood shots guy in the

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<v Speaker 3>back of the building.

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<v Speaker 1>So the neighborhood was buzzing. But it doesn't appear that

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<v Speaker 1>anyone cooperated until Harold Wesley had a run in with

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<v Speaker 1>police that June.

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<v Speaker 3>Harold Wesley had got arrested for possession of drugs, a

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<v Speaker 3>shotgun and the weed, and when the police pulled him over,

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<v Speaker 3>he was about to have a shootout with the police.

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<v Speaker 3>Somehow the shootout was avoided. Howld Wessey goes in custody.

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<v Speaker 3>Now he wants to cut a deal with the Feds.

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<v Speaker 3>So now atf steps in and this is how the

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<v Speaker 3>audio tape came about. He's on this audio tape trying

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<v Speaker 3>to cut this deal with the Feds, and now this

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<v Speaker 3>guy starts talking about every crime and everything he knew

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<v Speaker 3>in the neighborhood. And he's jumping all over the place too.

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<v Speaker 3>He's not focusing on one thing. He's talking about this thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Then he jumps to this, then he jumps from here.

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<v Speaker 3>He's jumping from there, and it's kind of discombobulated when

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<v Speaker 3>you read the tape. And onside one of the tape

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<v Speaker 3>he mentions me he's mentioned me about a conflict with drugs,

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<v Speaker 3>had been with some guy named R and Jr. That

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<v Speaker 3>he was trying to get me to pay him to

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<v Speaker 3>deal with JR and R. So somehow the police thought

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<v Speaker 3>that he was saying that the JR and R was

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<v Speaker 3>Jim Carabella.

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<v Speaker 4>So they got that whole thing all screwed up.

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<v Speaker 3>So by the time you get to side to of

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<v Speaker 3>the tape, you can see that they're confused. See, the

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<v Speaker 3>police already knew that it was Shatique and Patrick that

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<v Speaker 3>did it, so they confirmed that. But then he said,

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<v Speaker 3>well then what about Divine, Well did Divine order it?

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<v Speaker 3>And then Harold West They cleared it up conclusively. By

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<v Speaker 3>the end of the tape, he said, no, Divine didn't

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<v Speaker 3>order it. Even he was getting frustrated with ATF agent.

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<v Speaker 3>His name is Bob Hamilton. He was getting really frustrated

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<v Speaker 3>with him, like, well, why you keep bringing up this

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<v Speaker 3>divine character when I'm talking about something else.

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<v Speaker 1>And while this recording happened and Wesley was in custody,

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<v Speaker 1>a guy named Richard Doyle and his friend Scott Bell

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<v Speaker 1>were arrested for burglarizing the home of someone named mar

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<v Speaker 1>Sigliano as for a possession of crack. And Doyle knew

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<v Speaker 1>Divine from the projects, but they never got along, so

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<v Speaker 1>that's a bit of bad luck. When Doyle ran into

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<v Speaker 1>Harold Wesley.

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<v Speaker 3>Richard Doyle saw Harold Wesley's shatik in the ballpins, and

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<v Speaker 3>because they knew each other, they started talking. Now, I

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<v Speaker 3>guess what Shatik must have told him. Yo, They must

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<v Speaker 3>have thinked, this is the vine, because you can see

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<v Speaker 3>on the tape that they actually kept pressing Harold, that

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<v Speaker 3>kept mentioning my name, and Harold kept telling him no,

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<v Speaker 3>not the vine, not the vine. Then Richard Doyle came

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<v Speaker 3>to Scott Belly and said, yo, listen, I got a

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<v Speaker 3>way for us to get out, we can say we

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<v Speaker 3>saw Devine did this crime.

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Doyle got the idea that he was going to

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<v Speaker 2>get both of them out of jail by falsely implicating

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<v Speaker 2>Divine for a homicide.

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<v Speaker 3>Because Richard Doyle is a professional informant, He's been doing

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<v Speaker 3>this for a while. He testified in Pencil and Jeffrey's case,

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<v Speaker 3>he testified and Gary Reedy's case, but he testified in

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<v Speaker 3>multiple cases.

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<v Speaker 4>So he has a history of this and he knows

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<v Speaker 4>that if you.

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<v Speaker 3>Come up with this type of information that prosecutors love

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<v Speaker 3>you for this and you can get out of jail.

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<v Speaker 3>So Scott Bello says, no, I'm not doing that, No,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not doing that. So Richard Doyle goes on about

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<v Speaker 3>his business and Scott Belli sees him talking to a

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<v Speaker 3>man in a suit and the next thing you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they walking out of prison. Then, after Richard Doyle gets

0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.640
<v Speaker 3>out a week later, miraculously, he goes to the police

0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.120
<v Speaker 3>station claiming to be an eye witness to this.

0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:28.120
<v Speaker 1>So, on the strength of this serial informants word, Divine

0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:32.000
<v Speaker 1>was transferred from Upstate to Rikers to face this homicide charge,

0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.559
<v Speaker 1>even though Harold Wesley had already cleared his name.

0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.200
<v Speaker 3>The minute I went on Rikers Island, like about three

0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:42.400
<v Speaker 3>days later, he committed suicide in Brooklyn House of Detention. Well,

0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.959
<v Speaker 3>they say he committed suicide. I did a four year

0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.640
<v Speaker 3>request and got all of the documents. They said that

0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:51.240
<v Speaker 3>they found him with the rope that allegedly hung him

0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.760
<v Speaker 3>under his mattress. So in essence, he hung himself, took

0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:56.960
<v Speaker 3>the rope off his neck and put it under his mattress.

0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:58.800
<v Speaker 4>So you figure that out.

0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.400
<v Speaker 1>But like I said, I didn't even know about Harold

0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:04.440
<v Speaker 1>was the or this confession tape until after his conviction,

0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.120
<v Speaker 1>let alone what he was about to face a trial.

0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.200
<v Speaker 4>I didn't know who actually was accusing me of it.

0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:11.720
<v Speaker 4>And to the day of trial.

0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:15.160
<v Speaker 3>It was a tactic that they used called trial by ambush.

0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:16.040
<v Speaker 4>They would hide.

0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.160
<v Speaker 3>All of the evidence from you and then on a

0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:20.240
<v Speaker 3>day of trial they come in there with a two

0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.240
<v Speaker 3>foot stack of documents and say here. And that's when

0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.200
<v Speaker 3>I discovered that it was this notorious crackhead. I mean,

0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:31.319
<v Speaker 3>he was the crackhead extraordinary in Brookline projects and he

0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.160
<v Speaker 3>accused me of this homicide.

0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:37.319
<v Speaker 2>And here's where discovery laws being inadequate before, which is

0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.200
<v Speaker 2>why we're fighting to try to maintain them now comes

0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.800
<v Speaker 2>into play. Okay, because this tape that Divine has mentioned,

0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:46.440
<v Speaker 2>the tape went missing many years later they claimed it

0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.800
<v Speaker 2>was missing. But if it had been automatic discovery right away,

0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 2>very early in the process, then Divine's lawyer could have

0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.200
<v Speaker 2>had that tape, It could have used that at the

0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.439
<v Speaker 2>trial and almost certainly would have gotten an acquittal.

0:12:58.840 --> 0:12:59.520
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely.

0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.720
<v Speaker 1>Discovery laws in New York changed from trial by ambush

0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:09.280
<v Speaker 1>to automatic discovery in twenty twenty, and right now various

0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:14.240
<v Speaker 1>nefarious forces are working to repeal this vital reform. They

0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.160
<v Speaker 1>want to take us back to an era when a

0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:21.600
<v Speaker 1>request for discovery was both over and underwhelming. As Divine described,

0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.760
<v Speaker 1>a defendant would literally receive a volume of documents that

0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.360
<v Speaker 1>would be near impossible or impossible even to digest on

0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.439
<v Speaker 1>the eve of or during trial. But also the prosecutor

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.040
<v Speaker 1>would get to decide what was going to be given

0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.680
<v Speaker 1>to the defense. Right. I mean, it's the wolf guarding

0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.920
<v Speaker 1>the henhouse, and I don't have to tell our audience

0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.960
<v Speaker 1>what a Brady violation is. And in Divine's case, that

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.800
<v Speaker 1>meant Carol Wesley's confession, any mention of Marjorie Shack or

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.320
<v Speaker 1>the deal made with Richard Doyle, who claimed that he'd

0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.760
<v Speaker 1>witness Wesley and Divine shoot MILLIASI under a street lamp

0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.280
<v Speaker 1>from thirty five feet away, and then he'd run to

0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 1>a nearby stay order to retrieve receipts for some unknown reason,

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.000
<v Speaker 1>and returned to the scene with a store clerk named

0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Wayne Harris.

0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.440
<v Speaker 2>And Wayne Harris says, no, I never saw him that night,

0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:11.840
<v Speaker 2>But in terms of his credibility here in this case,

0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:16.880
<v Speaker 2>there's three provable lies. There's another twelve very likely lies.

0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.760
<v Speaker 1>Doyle testified that his burglary charges had been dismissed before

0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.840
<v Speaker 1>he'd come forward because the burglary victim's nephew, sal Mar Sigliano,

0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.920
<v Speaker 1>had directed he and Scott Bell to do it. He

0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:32.200
<v Speaker 1>also testified that he'd received no benefit for his testimony,

0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.880
<v Speaker 1>even though it was later discovered that the burglary charge

0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.160
<v Speaker 1>was pending through his grand jury testimony, as well as

0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.280
<v Speaker 1>an armed robbery charge in Nassau County that also just

0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.960
<v Speaker 1>poof went away. He also said that after he'd gotten

0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.120
<v Speaker 1>out of jail in June of eighty eight, that he

0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:50.480
<v Speaker 1>was approached by armed men who he didn't know, implying

0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.240
<v Speaker 1>possible witness tampering, but according to police reports written by

0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 1>the lead detective, Robert Lincoln, he knew who that armed

0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:00.240
<v Speaker 1>person was and was unrelated to this case. Doyle also

0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.640
<v Speaker 1>claimed to have been sober for months, but on the

0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:05.360
<v Speaker 1>night he been arrested, one of the charges was for

0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:09.080
<v Speaker 1>possession of crack. In addition to Doyle, the jury heard

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.120
<v Speaker 1>from the medical examiner about the cause of death, Harold

0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Wesley's arresting officer about the gun he found in Wesley's trunk,

0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.480
<v Speaker 1>and then a ballistic expert linked that gun to bullets

0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:20.680
<v Speaker 1>recovered from the scene.

0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.040
<v Speaker 2>The whole case against the Vines is based on this

0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.800
<v Speaker 2>one and formant the trial judge, you know, Judge Edgido

0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.720
<v Speaker 2>at the sentencing even says that this whole case just

0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.520
<v Speaker 2>comes down to Richard Doyle's credibility.

0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.720
<v Speaker 4>He said, without Richard Doyle, there was no case.

0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:39.160
<v Speaker 1>And you end up getting sentenced to concurrent terms right

0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.680
<v Speaker 1>of twenty five years to life, five to fifteen years,

0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.680
<v Speaker 1>and two to a third to seven years.

0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.720
<v Speaker 3>I mean, listen, man, it's a nightmare beyond description. You

0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 3>know when they read it out, you know, the whole

0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 3>courtroom exploded. I exploded, you know I didn't do it,

0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:58.680
<v Speaker 3>screaming it was just a nightmare.

0:15:58.680 --> 0:15:59.520
<v Speaker 4>I couldn't believe it.

0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.600
<v Speaker 3>Family was crying, I was crying. It was just the

0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:22.800
<v Speaker 3>shark of all sharks. At the time in Clinton, Attica,

0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.600
<v Speaker 3>green Haven, that was a very racist jail. They got

0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.680
<v Speaker 3>active clanmen in Greenhn and at the time in Auburn.

0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:31.880
<v Speaker 4>I did my rounds.

0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:34.360
<v Speaker 3>But when I got to Sing Sing Sing Sing was

0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.160
<v Speaker 3>terrible too because they had a lot of drug wars,

0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:39.680
<v Speaker 3>a lot of gang violence, a lot of just a lot.

0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:41.480
<v Speaker 4>Of prisons are just violent, period.

0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:43.480
<v Speaker 3>But when I got to Sing Sing, it was a

0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:46.480
<v Speaker 3>blessing in disguise because Sing Sing is close to the city,

0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.960
<v Speaker 3>so they were more acclimated to have programs and people

0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.760
<v Speaker 3>were more able from the city to come up to

0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 3>the jails. So I seen it as an opportunity. I

0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:59.760
<v Speaker 3>was on an all out mission. Being sentenced to twenty

0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.120
<v Speaker 3>five years to life can bring something to you that

0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.920
<v Speaker 3>you don't even know that you got waking up every

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.439
<v Speaker 3>morning into a nightmare. When you go to sleep, you

0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.360
<v Speaker 3>out of the nightmare, you dreaming you free, and then

0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:12.120
<v Speaker 3>you wake up.

0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.480
<v Speaker 4>It was like every morning, Uh, here go this nightmare again.

0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:16.680
<v Speaker 4>Here we go again.

0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.480
<v Speaker 3>So that gave me that fire. I got into the NAACPA.

0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:24.800
<v Speaker 3>I eventually went to college, eventually got a master's degree, started.

0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:29.439
<v Speaker 4>RTA and rehabilitation through RTA is rehabilitation through the arts.

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:29.720
<v Speaker 4>You know.

0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.600
<v Speaker 3>It was just a lot going on, and I became

0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.200
<v Speaker 3>a jail house lawyer man that was very efficient.

0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:36.600
<v Speaker 4>I learned how to do motions.

0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.000
<v Speaker 3>I learned how to do this because at that point

0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.760
<v Speaker 3>I knew that my entire life depended on me finding

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:44.680
<v Speaker 3>a way to do it. And I'm not rich. I'm

0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.360
<v Speaker 3>a poor person. My family's poor. We don't have lawyers,

0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:49.560
<v Speaker 3>we don't have money for that. So I went in

0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.600
<v Speaker 3>that lawyer liberry and I learned, and ultimately I do

0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:57.160
<v Speaker 3>legal writing. I ended up becoming a very efficient novelist

0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.920
<v Speaker 3>writer because I said, once the court thought rubber stamping it,

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.119
<v Speaker 3>I said, I gotta come up with some kind of

0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:03.119
<v Speaker 3>way to fight this.

0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.000
<v Speaker 4>Well writing, what can I do? I can write, and

0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:07.000
<v Speaker 4>ultimately my.

0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.760
<v Speaker 3>Memoir The Whitfield Files, won a National Writing Award.

0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:12.919
<v Speaker 4>It's a Pen award, right, Yeah, there's a Pen Award.

0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.800
<v Speaker 1>In addition to his Oscar nomination, Divine won the prestigious

0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:20.160
<v Speaker 1>Pan Award four count of four times. So we're gonna

0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.639
<v Speaker 1>link all of that in the episode description. He was

0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.159
<v Speaker 1>and still is stunningly prolific.

0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.840
<v Speaker 3>It shocked me at times when I sat back and

0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.760
<v Speaker 3>realized one time, I wrote three novels in one year,

0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.440
<v Speaker 3>did a four to forty article seventy eight, and was

0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:38.960
<v Speaker 3>running RTA, and was the president of the NAACP sponsoring

0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:43.600
<v Speaker 3>culture war in his classes Black History Month classes GED classes.

0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:45.639
<v Speaker 3>People used to ask how do you do it? And

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:47.760
<v Speaker 3>one of the ways I used to do it. I

0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:52.640
<v Speaker 3>had a meticulous checklist system. Every year I would write

0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.040
<v Speaker 3>out what I'm gonna do for this year, and then

0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.639
<v Speaker 3>every month I would break them down into months, a

0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.960
<v Speaker 3>checklist in months, and then a checkliss in weeks, and

0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.080
<v Speaker 3>a checklist in days, and every day I would check

0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:08.439
<v Speaker 3>off those. So every day of my life that was living, breathing.

0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:11.480
<v Speaker 3>It was about doing something. If there was a moment

0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.679
<v Speaker 3>I wasn't doing something, was it was misery. It was

0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.240
<v Speaker 3>like I lived by just staying proactive and moving.

0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.159
<v Speaker 1>And he brought that drive and organizational prowess to his

0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.280
<v Speaker 1>appellate fight as a pro say litigant, meaning he was

0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.600
<v Speaker 1>on his own without an attorney, and after his initial

0:19:27.640 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 1>appeals were denied, his first post conviction motion, known as

0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.359
<v Speaker 1>a four to forty in New York, was based on

0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:36.680
<v Speaker 1>Doyle's perjured testimony that his burglary charges had been dismissed

0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.639
<v Speaker 1>before he even spoke to police about this, and that

0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.120
<v Speaker 1>he'd received no benefit. But Divine found out that Doyle's

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.760
<v Speaker 1>charges hadn't been dismissed until after his grand jury testimony.

0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.440
<v Speaker 1>This was a Brady violation as well as false testimony,

0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.680
<v Speaker 1>and in addition, Scott Bell gave an affidavit about Doyle's

0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.720
<v Speaker 1>plan to falsely accused Divine who he didn't like, to

0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.560
<v Speaker 1>get their charges dismissed, and there was also an affidavit

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.920
<v Speaker 1>from the burglary victim, Salmar Sigliano about how he tried

0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:07.720
<v Speaker 1>to press charges but nothing ever materialized. Yet somehow, the

0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:12.119
<v Speaker 1>motion was denied in nineteen ninety six, so Divine moved

0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.080
<v Speaker 1>on to federal habeas and filed a Foyer request with

0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.320
<v Speaker 1>the King County DA, which turned up a disclosure for

0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 1>him that mentioned a tape.

0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.200
<v Speaker 3>When I finally realized that there was a tape, they

0:20:24.480 --> 0:20:28.040
<v Speaker 3>adamantly insist that there was no tape that exists. I

0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.280
<v Speaker 3>did an article seventy eight to try to compel them Finally,

0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.919
<v Speaker 3>a judge in King's County said, you either have to

0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.480
<v Speaker 3>produce that tape or you're going to have to do

0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.480
<v Speaker 3>a very detailed APPI dated explaining why this tape doesn't exist.

0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.880
<v Speaker 3>These documents says that this tape exists. I eventually had

0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.040
<v Speaker 3>to do a motion to have him held in contempt

0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.000
<v Speaker 3>the court. I was doing all of this pro say,

0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 3>and the judge granted it.

0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:54.359
<v Speaker 4>Then and only then did all.

0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:56.400
<v Speaker 3>Of a sudden, out of the clear blue sky the

0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.480
<v Speaker 3>mailman that does the mail, the mail officer comes to

0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:01.840
<v Speaker 3>my gate with a tape and lays it here and

0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:02.879
<v Speaker 3>have me signed for it.

0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.760
<v Speaker 4>I'm like, wow, so they did have the tape.

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.560
<v Speaker 3>They lied to The judge kept telling the no tape exists,

0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.480
<v Speaker 3>No tape exists. Yah, this is nothing, and I'm looking

0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:15.120
<v Speaker 3>and then we finally, when I listened to the tape,

0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:17.800
<v Speaker 3>I said, I see why they did this.

0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Day Harold Wesley, when he was being questioned by the HF,

0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.480
<v Speaker 2>he mentioned that he did the crime with Patrick from

0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.160
<v Speaker 2>Queen's Divines from Brooklyn. His name's not Patrick.

0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:31.159
<v Speaker 3>I couldn't sleep for three days after listening to this tape,

0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.520
<v Speaker 3>shocked by the fact that these people had this tape

0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:38.120
<v Speaker 3>in their possession, with this man telling them I wasn't

0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.040
<v Speaker 3>a shooter and I didn't order it. So that's what

0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:45.399
<v Speaker 3>turns this case until a grecious misconduct. You're listening to

0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.479
<v Speaker 3>this tape. This man is exonerating me, and you're hiding it,

0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:49.760
<v Speaker 3>and this is malicious.

0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:52.680
<v Speaker 1>So they had that tape, and they had every reason

0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:54.760
<v Speaker 1>to believe that they should go look for this guy Patrick.

0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:57.320
<v Speaker 1>Of course, from the very beginning, did they know Patrick's

0:21:57.320 --> 0:21:59.520
<v Speaker 1>identity or just Patrick from Queen's.

0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.200
<v Speaker 3>Nobody was able to track them down. I mean, that's

0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:06.760
<v Speaker 3>the full extent of what we know Patrick from Queens.

0:22:07.359 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 1>At this point, Divine pursued a success of four forty

0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:13.479
<v Speaker 1>with Brady material that would have definitely changed the verdict.

0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:15.520
<v Speaker 1>It should have been a slam dunk, but it was

0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:20.199
<v Speaker 1>inexplicably denied, as was his amended federal habeas and a

0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.240
<v Speaker 1>slough of successive four forties. But Divine was able to

0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:26.840
<v Speaker 1>put the demoralizing legal system in the background, not only

0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:29.720
<v Speaker 1>for himself but for others as well, when he co

0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.199
<v Speaker 1>founded what turned out to be the subject of his

0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:37.000
<v Speaker 1>OSCAR nominated screenplay, And of course I'm referring to RTA

0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:39.680
<v Speaker 1>or rehabilitation through the arts.

0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:42.199
<v Speaker 3>One of the things that I vowed that if I

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:45.080
<v Speaker 3>got to stay here in this place, I'm gonna find

0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.000
<v Speaker 3>every way in my powers to make sure that any

0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:51.080
<v Speaker 3>and everybody that I can touch make sure that they

0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:52.360
<v Speaker 3>get out and don't come back.

0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:53.520
<v Speaker 4>I'm gonna find a way.

0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:56.560
<v Speaker 3>To strip the system of the thing that they needed most.

0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:59.359
<v Speaker 3>That was kind of like my fire, like, if I

0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.000
<v Speaker 3>can help them, these guys stay out because Gods was

0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:04.920
<v Speaker 3>coming back and it was hurting me. It was like, Wow,

0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:07.480
<v Speaker 3>I'm trying so hard to get out of this place,

0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.879
<v Speaker 3>and so you guys are coming right back. So that

0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:13.520
<v Speaker 3>was the creation of RTA, finding a way to make

0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:15.560
<v Speaker 3>sure that when these guys got out, they stayed out.

0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:19.679
<v Speaker 1>And our audience will recall hearing about RTA from Jermaine Archer,

0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:24.520
<v Speaker 1>Eric Clisson, Johnny and Capier JJ Velasquez JJ, who actually

0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:27.840
<v Speaker 1>plays himself in the Oscar nominated film Sing Sing. It's

0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:31.560
<v Speaker 1>a theater group in the most unlikely place, a maximum

0:23:31.560 --> 0:23:34.359
<v Speaker 1>security prison where guys have to do more than just

0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:36.360
<v Speaker 1>wear a tough face to survive.

0:23:36.760 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 4>I saw the power of art.

0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:40.280
<v Speaker 3>You got to remember, like I explained to you earlier,

0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:43.679
<v Speaker 3>I've been in entertainer, My Whole Life, movies, dancing on

0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:45.280
<v Speaker 3>TV DJ.

0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:46.040
<v Speaker 4>And the whole work.

0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:51.040
<v Speaker 3>So arts are what I describe as an explosive expression

0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:55.840
<v Speaker 3>of humanity. It has this amazing way of allowing people

0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:58.960
<v Speaker 3>to relax and to be comfortable with each other, to

0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:00.680
<v Speaker 3>sometimes take the mass off.

0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:02.919
<v Speaker 4>It wasn't easy. Now they don't think it was a

0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:06.040
<v Speaker 4>walk in the park. But we had a strong steering committee,

0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:08.359
<v Speaker 4>the founders of this program. We had some good guys

0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:10.720
<v Speaker 4>and we will shout them out, which man.

0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:17.119
<v Speaker 3>Dino Belaud, David Wayne Peto, Shorty King, Herm.

0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:19.000
<v Speaker 4>You know, this is just quite a few, It's a

0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:19.440
<v Speaker 4>few more.

0:24:19.480 --> 0:24:23.760
<v Speaker 3>It was we had a strong network of good, solid

0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:27.520
<v Speaker 3>people that were well respected in the system. So when

0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:30.720
<v Speaker 3>you've seen a guy like Diano or Blaud or Shorty

0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:33.800
<v Speaker 3>King and me update, they're like, wow, these guys was

0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:36.960
<v Speaker 3>walking the yards of Attica and Clinton and these guys

0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:39.760
<v Speaker 3>as stand up dudes, And it would give other people

0:24:39.800 --> 0:24:42.800
<v Speaker 3>permission to say, damn, if they can do it, we

0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:45.480
<v Speaker 3>want to do it because subconsciously a lot of people

0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:49.000
<v Speaker 3>really want to do like things that's open, and we

0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:50.560
<v Speaker 3>give them permission to explore.

0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:54.040
<v Speaker 4>Then in our program, since it's about.

0:24:53.760 --> 0:24:57.320
<v Speaker 3>Healing, it's about brotherhood, it's about camaraderie.

0:24:57.640 --> 0:24:59.240
<v Speaker 4>When you came in, we kind of.

0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:01.840
<v Speaker 3>Prepped you that, bruh, you're gonna be dealing with some

0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:05.800
<v Speaker 3>unfamiliar behavior around here because you're gonna have to open up.

0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:08.000
<v Speaker 3>We're gonna have to learn how to work with each other.

0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.359
<v Speaker 3>And once we've built it into the program, it just

0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:15.800
<v Speaker 3>started to blossom and work. And one of the criterias

0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:18.560
<v Speaker 3>that we always had that was built into the program

0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:21.800
<v Speaker 3>is that if anybody leaves Sing Sing, go start it

0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:24.040
<v Speaker 3>up wherever you go. We want to share it with

0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:26.119
<v Speaker 3>as many people as we can. And we got like

0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:30.239
<v Speaker 3>eight different facilities with RTA, and now it's expanded all

0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:33.840
<v Speaker 3>the way to Ohio and in California based.

0:25:33.560 --> 0:25:34.960
<v Speaker 4>On the movie, so it's expanded.

0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:37.920
<v Speaker 3>We really would love to have this thing available all

0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:39.800
<v Speaker 3>across the country if it was up to me.

0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:43.280
<v Speaker 1>And what have been the results of this program in

0:25:43.359 --> 0:25:45.679
<v Speaker 1>terms of violence and recidivism.

0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:49.679
<v Speaker 3>Listen, RTA has a recidivism level of three percent in

0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:53.760
<v Speaker 3>comparison to sixty percent of the national average of prisoners

0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:56.560
<v Speaker 3>who leave and don't get this type of program or

0:25:56.560 --> 0:25:59.840
<v Speaker 3>this type of involvement. Sixty percent of them come back

0:25:59.880 --> 0:26:03.520
<v Speaker 3>with than three years. So I think RTA gave certain

0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:06.800
<v Speaker 3>segments of society something to live for, because when they

0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:10.119
<v Speaker 3>wanted to get into RTA, we used to kind of

0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:11.679
<v Speaker 3>tell them, Okay, you got to stay out of trouble

0:26:11.720 --> 0:26:13.720
<v Speaker 3>for this amount of time, and we would give them

0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:15.760
<v Speaker 3>an incentive they want to stay out of trouble.

0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:20.359
<v Speaker 1>Three recentivism made I want to just let that linger

0:26:20.440 --> 0:26:21.040
<v Speaker 1>for a second.

0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:23.080
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, why you think I wrote so much?

0:26:23.119 --> 0:26:25.720
<v Speaker 3>Because every time when I started writing a novel, I

0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:29.480
<v Speaker 3>was enmeshed in those stories, creating these characters in these

0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:32.400
<v Speaker 3>worlds and these images. I was escaping, and every time

0:26:32.440 --> 0:26:34.840
<v Speaker 3>I touched the stage it was therapeutic.

0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:35.680
<v Speaker 4>It was cathartic.

0:26:35.760 --> 0:26:39.280
<v Speaker 3>It was like that moment when I'm becoming the character

0:26:39.480 --> 0:26:43.000
<v Speaker 3>on stage, in that world of the character, I was free.

0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:45.840
<v Speaker 4>I had to have that freedom.

0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:48.320
<v Speaker 3>Because when we had to go back to ourselves, it

0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:50.480
<v Speaker 3>was like, well, the nightmare begins again.

0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:52.840
<v Speaker 4>And RTA was that escapism.

0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:56.280
<v Speaker 3>And the beautiful thing about RTA we were able to

0:26:56.359 --> 0:27:12.680
<v Speaker 3>find love amongst so much hate, plain and simpers. Ultimately,

0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:16.720
<v Speaker 3>as the movie sing scene depicts, I eventually got a

0:27:16.800 --> 0:27:20.480
<v Speaker 3>clemency heart from Governor Elliot, Spitzer, who was considering me

0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:23.480
<v Speaker 3>for a full parton. If you could get a governor

0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:26.159
<v Speaker 3>to look at this and consider you for a full parton,

0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:27.600
<v Speaker 3>it has to be something there.

0:27:27.960 --> 0:27:31.359
<v Speaker 1>And according to Divine, the clemency board was confused as

0:27:31.440 --> 0:27:34.919
<v Speaker 1>to what they were missing about this evidence. Why hadn't

0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:37.960
<v Speaker 1>an appellate court granted belief, which, by the way, are

0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:41.280
<v Speaker 1>great fucking questions. But they let their disbelief and uncertainty

0:27:41.359 --> 0:27:45.040
<v Speaker 1>lead them to deny clemency for Divine. And so again

0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:48.520
<v Speaker 1>Divine went back to the drawing board, hiring an investigator

0:27:48.560 --> 0:27:51.199
<v Speaker 1>who found out about Richard Doyle's arm robbery charge in

0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:54.359
<v Speaker 1>Nasau County that was also dismissed around the time of

0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:57.560
<v Speaker 1>his testimony. So a success of four point forty was filed,

0:27:57.600 --> 0:28:00.560
<v Speaker 1>and you guessed it, that was denied too, at which

0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:04.080
<v Speaker 1>point Divine wrote to the newly formed Deskovic Foundation.

0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:08.080
<v Speaker 2>Divine had wrote, my organization. I mean, people remember me

0:28:08.119 --> 0:28:10.800
<v Speaker 2>from other episode, but in brief, I did sixteen years

0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:14.800
<v Speaker 2>in prison myself for a murdering rate before DNA exonerated me,

0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:17.800
<v Speaker 2>and eventually I went to law school and became an attorney,

0:28:17.800 --> 0:28:20.320
<v Speaker 2>started the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for justice.

0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:22.320
<v Speaker 4>So with your own money, with.

0:28:22.119 --> 0:28:25.000
<v Speaker 2>My own money, Yes, that's true. So Divine wrote us,

0:28:25.040 --> 0:28:27.960
<v Speaker 2>and we evaluated his case and we determined he was innocent,

0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:31.400
<v Speaker 2>and we saw a potential route to exoneration. But while

0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:34.000
<v Speaker 2>we were doing investigative work, he had a parole board

0:28:34.040 --> 0:28:36.280
<v Speaker 2>appearance coming. And it's always our policy to try to

0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:39.320
<v Speaker 2>get our clients out however it is we can, so

0:28:39.360 --> 0:28:42.520
<v Speaker 2>that they could be free while the long, often uncertain

0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:46.520
<v Speaker 2>road to exoneration takes place. So we wrote a letter

0:28:46.560 --> 0:28:49.960
<v Speaker 2>to the parole board which outlined all the primary and

0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:53.280
<v Speaker 2>secondary reasons why we believed in Divine's innocence. And as

0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:55.959
<v Speaker 2>people probably know listening to your podcast, if you maintain

0:28:56.000 --> 0:28:59.600
<v Speaker 2>your innocence rather than expressing remorse and take responsibility, you'd

0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:03.480
<v Speaker 2>almost always denied parole. So it already unjust prison stay

0:29:03.560 --> 0:29:04.320
<v Speaker 2>gets extended.

0:29:04.760 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 1>But he was paroled, and that was twenty twelve. So

0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:13.720
<v Speaker 1>while an attorney with Jeff's Foundation, Rita Deve hired an

0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.520
<v Speaker 1>investigator and worked on his case, Divine continued some of

0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:20.360
<v Speaker 1>the work he'd been doing inside as a youth counselor.

0:29:20.560 --> 0:29:23.200
<v Speaker 1>When his past connection to the arts scene in New

0:29:23.280 --> 0:29:27.240
<v Speaker 1>York afforded him an incredible, almost unreal opportunity.

0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:30.680
<v Speaker 3>When I got out of prison right in twenty twelve,

0:29:30.800 --> 0:29:32.800
<v Speaker 3>Lil Wayne's road manager approached me.

0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:34.240
<v Speaker 4>It's this guy named Ei.

0:29:34.520 --> 0:29:36.440
<v Speaker 3>Actually, when I was a DJ, I used to look

0:29:36.440 --> 0:29:38.400
<v Speaker 3>out for him and his little sister let him come

0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 3>behind the ropes and stuff, and e I knew I

0:29:40.480 --> 0:29:43.080
<v Speaker 3>was innocent too, and everybody knew I caught a bad deal.

0:29:43.200 --> 0:29:45.600
<v Speaker 3>So when I got out, he came and picked me

0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:47.840
<v Speaker 3>up a Bentley, gave me some money and said, yo,

0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:49.640
<v Speaker 3>you want to go on my tour with Lil Wayne.

0:29:49.760 --> 0:29:52.040
<v Speaker 3>I said, damn right, I want to go. He said, listen,

0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:55.280
<v Speaker 3>I'll let you be a stage manager. If you can

0:29:55.320 --> 0:29:58.200
<v Speaker 3>get on, this tour is yours. At first, they wasn't

0:29:58.240 --> 0:30:00.520
<v Speaker 3>gonna let me go. The pro office admits, you crazy.

0:30:00.560 --> 0:30:02.520
<v Speaker 3>You just got out of prison for murder.

0:30:02.560 --> 0:30:05.480
<v Speaker 4>You think you going on a tour with a famous rapper?

0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:08.200
<v Speaker 4>Are you crazy? I said, man, all right, cool.

0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:11.440
<v Speaker 3>I've did an article seventy eight folled a major lawsuit.

0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:14.520
<v Speaker 3>Then I got some media people involved, and I did

0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:17.800
<v Speaker 3>emergency court for seeding, which is called an injunction. So

0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:19.959
<v Speaker 3>they did it like within a week. I was in

0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:22.400
<v Speaker 3>front of the judge and I went on that tour.

0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:22.640
<v Speaker 1>Man.

0:30:22.680 --> 0:30:25.400
<v Speaker 4>It was like the best seven months of my life. Man.

0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:28.320
<v Speaker 3>And all that came about just because when I was

0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:31.240
<v Speaker 3>a DJ, when I was young, I had this history

0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:32.840
<v Speaker 3>of just looking out for people.

0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:36.000
<v Speaker 1>And thankfully Jeff and Rider were looking out for Divine

0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:39.160
<v Speaker 1>as well. Obviously, Harold Wesley was deceased, but they got

0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:41.240
<v Speaker 1>in touch with his brother Ralph, who gave an affid

0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:43.800
<v Speaker 1>David that his brother told him the same story that

0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:47.480
<v Speaker 1>he killed familiar Racey with Patrick from Queen's. They'd also

0:30:47.560 --> 0:30:50.080
<v Speaker 1>tracked down the woman in the green coat and Divine's

0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:51.960
<v Speaker 1>ali by witness by Endevory.

0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:55.520
<v Speaker 2>So in terms of Divine's innocence, there's a tape we

0:30:55.680 --> 0:30:59.640
<v Speaker 2>just mentioned Wesley confessed to his brother. Okay, there's also

0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:04.160
<v Speaker 2>Divine's alibi. He was with Bryant Devery Marjorie Shack, who

0:31:04.240 --> 0:31:06.720
<v Speaker 2>knew Divine from the neighborhood. She said she heard the

0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:10.120
<v Speaker 2>gunshots and people running, that they passed by her, that

0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:13.760
<v Speaker 2>it was not Divine. Her story is corroborated by another

0:31:13.880 --> 0:31:17.840
<v Speaker 2>witness who also didn't see anybody, but corroborated the direction

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:20.080
<v Speaker 2>that the perpetrators were running from. So we got all

0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:25.840
<v Speaker 2>this evidence of his innocence juxtaposed with one informant Okay crackhead,

0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:30.000
<v Speaker 2>three lies, many other lies contradicted by witnesses. I mean,

0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:31.240
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't make any sense.

0:31:31.720 --> 0:31:34.120
<v Speaker 1>But instead of filing another four to forty, they applied

0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:37.360
<v Speaker 1>to the King's County Conviction Integrity Unit in twenty eighteen,

0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:42.320
<v Speaker 1>who allegedly reinvestigated Divine's case. But by twenty twenty three

0:31:42.400 --> 0:31:46.400
<v Speaker 1>there was still no relief. And at this point Oscar

0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:47.720
<v Speaker 1>michelin enjoined the team.

0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:51.280
<v Speaker 2>Five years had passed by without the Conviction Review Unit

0:31:51.360 --> 0:31:54.720
<v Speaker 2>doing anything. So from there we had a meeting with

0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:57.760
<v Speaker 2>the then head of the Conviction Review Unit, Charles Lenahan,

0:31:57.960 --> 0:32:00.720
<v Speaker 2>and the line attorney, and Elenahan said, look, I haven't

0:32:00.720 --> 0:32:03.160
<v Speaker 2>read the case, but I took the meeting as a courtesy,

0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:06.200
<v Speaker 2>but I have the line attorney here, and she was

0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:10.080
<v Speaker 2>intimating like they just hit brick walls, and like she

0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:12.520
<v Speaker 2>wanted to say. She was on the verge of saying

0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:15.680
<v Speaker 2>we're going to close the case. But I'm fast on

0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:18.400
<v Speaker 2>my feet sometimes, and I saw what she was about

0:32:18.440 --> 0:32:20.840
<v Speaker 2>to do, and if she had gotten that sentence out,

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:23.440
<v Speaker 2>politically it would have been hard for the unit chief

0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:26.840
<v Speaker 2>to overrule her. So I jumped in and I said, well,

0:32:26.920 --> 0:32:29.760
<v Speaker 2>what about this witness? What about that witness? Did you

0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:31.480
<v Speaker 2>talk to this one? Did you talk to that one?

0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:31.840
<v Speaker 1>No?

0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:35.400
<v Speaker 2>So I ignore her and say that the unit chief, Well,

0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:38.040
<v Speaker 2>how can you guys be about ready to close his

0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:41.840
<v Speaker 2>case when there's all these witnesses that you haven't spoken to. Look,

0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:46.000
<v Speaker 2>can we submit a twelfth page report to you outlining

0:32:46.320 --> 0:32:49.320
<v Speaker 2>all the evidence of Divine's innocence. We'll have complete references

0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:52.560
<v Speaker 2>to the record, and we'll contrast that with this one informant.

0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:56.160
<v Speaker 2>So he gave us the okay, and so sixty hours later,

0:32:56.360 --> 0:32:59.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, a twelve page memo was sent to the

0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:03.320
<v Speaker 2>conviction review unit. A year goes by and again nothing happens.

0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:05.280
<v Speaker 2>And the next thing we know, we're getting word that

0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:09.680
<v Speaker 2>he's leaving the unit, going to go into a private practice,

0:33:10.040 --> 0:33:13.000
<v Speaker 2>And we naturally reached out to him again, kind of

0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:16.040
<v Speaker 2>in desperation because we really don't know who the new

0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:19.120
<v Speaker 2>unit chief is going to be. And so we just

0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:22.400
<v Speaker 2>read the report and at the end of the day,

0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:24.520
<v Speaker 2>he did nothing. The most he did was had the

0:33:24.600 --> 0:33:27.560
<v Speaker 2>case assigned to a different lawyer. The lawyer that had

0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:29.640
<v Speaker 2>did nothing left the unit. I guess she was never

0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:33.280
<v Speaker 2>enthusiastic about doing conviction review to begin with, but he

0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:37.600
<v Speaker 2>assigned it to somebody else and Oscar emailed him. I

0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:40.920
<v Speaker 2>piggybacked off of it. I did like a short reiteration

0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:43.200
<v Speaker 2>of all the evidence of his innocence. I reattached the

0:33:43.280 --> 0:33:47.040
<v Speaker 2>report and we heard nothing. And so it's been two years.

0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:51.080
<v Speaker 2>They appear to not be working at all on Divine's case.

0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:54.280
<v Speaker 2>So our strategy at this point is we're doing as

0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:56.760
<v Speaker 2>much media as we can. We have a petition for

0:33:56.920 --> 0:34:00.680
<v Speaker 2>Divine which calls for the Brooklyn District Attorney to order

0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.680
<v Speaker 2>his conviction of unit, just to make a decision. It's

0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:06.200
<v Speaker 2>been seven years. Just make a decision. It's been seven

0:34:06.280 --> 0:34:10.120
<v Speaker 2>years already now, So people listening like to sign the petition,

0:34:10.200 --> 0:34:13.160
<v Speaker 2>spread it around. We certainly need that. The website is

0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:17.000
<v Speaker 2>fredivine g dot org. We're hoping that if we get

0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:20.959
<v Speaker 2>enough petition signatures that die Gonzalez will order the unit

0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:23.440
<v Speaker 2>to make a decision. We could pull his case from

0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:26.840
<v Speaker 2>the unit right now if we wanted to, and file

0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:29.919
<v Speaker 2>a post conviction motion and litigate. That's going to take

0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:33.720
<v Speaker 2>about two years, okay, and maybe we win. We're supposed

0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:36.000
<v Speaker 2>to win by everything, that's right, but he might not.

0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:40.160
<v Speaker 2>But we don't want Divine to walk around with this

0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:43.759
<v Speaker 2>conviction for another two years that it's going to take.

0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:46.600
<v Speaker 2>Hence trying to gather petition signatures.

0:34:46.880 --> 0:34:50.200
<v Speaker 1>It's freedivineg dot org. We'll have it linked in the

0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:53.360
<v Speaker 1>episode description as well. So sign the petition in the

0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:56.640
<v Speaker 1>hopes that Kings County will finally do right by Divine

0:34:56.719 --> 0:34:59.120
<v Speaker 1>and if not, they'll move on to another four to

0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:01.759
<v Speaker 1>forty to resolve a case for which Divine should have

0:35:01.880 --> 0:35:04.719
<v Speaker 1>never gone to trial in the first place. Additionally, a

0:35:04.800 --> 0:35:07.759
<v Speaker 1>case in which the current discovery laws might have given

0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:09.040
<v Speaker 1>Divine a fighting chance.

0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.600
<v Speaker 2>We helped myself in many organizations and advocates when we

0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:15.880
<v Speaker 2>helped improve the discovery laws. All the information had to

0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:19.120
<v Speaker 2>be turned over automatically within the first two weeks, and

0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:22.359
<v Speaker 2>if the prosecutor didn't have everything together in the first

0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:25.719
<v Speaker 2>two weeks, they had another two weeks. Anything passed a

0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:30.680
<v Speaker 2>month they would have to get a court order to extend. Okay.

0:35:30.760 --> 0:35:32.160
<v Speaker 2>So that's how we improved it.

0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Laws that are right now under attack.

0:35:34.600 --> 0:35:37.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, the District Attorney's Association and a lot of law

0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:41.239
<v Speaker 2>enforcement they did a campaign of fear mongering all of

0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:43.480
<v Speaker 2>a sudden, Now we're not can build of solve crimes.

0:35:43.640 --> 0:35:45.799
<v Speaker 2>People aren't going to want to come forward. Now we're

0:35:45.800 --> 0:35:49.080
<v Speaker 2>going to have witness intimidation, witnesses being killed. Which was

0:35:49.120 --> 0:35:51.560
<v Speaker 2>all just a bunch of rhetoric. Because New Jersey, a

0:35:51.640 --> 0:35:54.840
<v Speaker 2>border state to New York Okay, has had automatic open

0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:58.200
<v Speaker 2>file discovery for many years, and as I often joke

0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:00.680
<v Speaker 2>in order to make the policy point, we don't have

0:36:00.760 --> 0:36:04.520
<v Speaker 2>bodies floating up and down the Hudson River, Okay. So

0:36:04.560 --> 0:36:06.120
<v Speaker 2>there's all a bunch of fear mongering.

0:36:06.320 --> 0:36:06.560
<v Speaker 4>Now.

0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Aside from the fear mongering, the other complaint is they're

0:36:09.719 --> 0:36:13.680
<v Speaker 2>trying to say that because of the discovery laws, that

0:36:14.120 --> 0:36:18.640
<v Speaker 2>many cases are being dismissed by judges because the prosecutors

0:36:18.680 --> 0:36:21.640
<v Speaker 2>are not turning over the information and timely manner. So,

0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:25.160
<v Speaker 2>first of all, that's not true statistically, and second of all,

0:36:25.360 --> 0:36:28.360
<v Speaker 2>to the extent that any case gets dismissed, why not

0:36:28.440 --> 0:36:33.000
<v Speaker 2>get on the prosecutor meet your deadlines, right. And so

0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:36.560
<v Speaker 2>the latest and greatest on that Governor Hokele now wants

0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:39.759
<v Speaker 2>to repeal the discovery law. They want to try to

0:36:39.840 --> 0:36:42.080
<v Speaker 2>modify it. First of all, they want to say that

0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:45.640
<v Speaker 2>a defense attorney would only have thirty five days now

0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:49.879
<v Speaker 2>to complain that you haven't gotten all the evidence turned over. Right,

0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:52.719
<v Speaker 2>that makes no sense because to me, whether it's on

0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:56.319
<v Speaker 2>day one or day two hundred, whenever it is that

0:36:56.400 --> 0:36:59.920
<v Speaker 2>you realize that you haven't been given all the discovery material,

0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:02.600
<v Speaker 2>you should be able to make a complaint, put that

0:37:02.640 --> 0:37:06.319
<v Speaker 2>on the record, object, etc. So that's one aspect of it.

0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:09.440
<v Speaker 2>Second thing is they want to go back to where

0:37:09.680 --> 0:37:13.440
<v Speaker 2>instead of turning over everything, they want the prosecutors to

0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:17.400
<v Speaker 2>look through the file and determine what can be helpful

0:37:17.440 --> 0:37:20.879
<v Speaker 2>to the defense and turn that over, which is part

0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:21.400
<v Speaker 2>of the problem.

0:37:21.480 --> 0:37:23.920
<v Speaker 4>Before the wolf was guarding the henhouse.

0:37:23.760 --> 0:37:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Exactly right, and that was all under Brady.

0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:26.040
<v Speaker 4>Now.

0:37:26.080 --> 0:37:29.760
<v Speaker 2>The second aspect of it is called Rosario material, and

0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:32.520
<v Speaker 2>in a common sense way of talking about it, the

0:37:32.719 --> 0:37:36.880
<v Speaker 2>prosecutor would only have to turn over information pertaining to

0:37:37.000 --> 0:37:40.480
<v Speaker 2>witnesses that they were planning to call at a hearing

0:37:40.880 --> 0:37:43.400
<v Speaker 2>or at a trial. They would often do that on

0:37:43.440 --> 0:37:45.440
<v Speaker 2>the eve of a hearing, on the eve of a trial,

0:37:45.760 --> 0:37:47.600
<v Speaker 2>So not only is there not enough time to read

0:37:47.600 --> 0:37:53.120
<v Speaker 2>through the material, investigate, interview witnesses, incorporate that into your strategy.

0:37:53.480 --> 0:37:56.040
<v Speaker 2>But also if they didn't want you to know about

0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:59.279
<v Speaker 2>a witness, just don't call them at the hearing or

0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:02.200
<v Speaker 2>the trial, and they wouldn't have to turn anything over.

0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:03.640
<v Speaker 2>So that's the way that.

0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:05.680
<v Speaker 1>It was as opposed to a civil case where you

0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:06.840
<v Speaker 1>have to turn over everything.

0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:10.320
<v Speaker 4>Correct, if you and I have a business dispute.

0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:12.799
<v Speaker 1>Literally you have to turn over everything, and all that

0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:16.360
<v Speaker 1>systake is money, And here you're dealing with somebody's freedom,

0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:17.399
<v Speaker 1>their life right.

0:38:17.440 --> 0:38:21.200
<v Speaker 2>When I brought a federal civil rights lawsuit in connection

0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:24.960
<v Speaker 2>with my being wrongfully imprisoned, I had more discovery rights

0:38:25.600 --> 0:38:29.080
<v Speaker 2>as a plaintiff bringing the lawsuit than what I did

0:38:29.120 --> 0:38:32.600
<v Speaker 2>when I was a criminal defendant defending myself against the

0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:33.480
<v Speaker 2>false charges.

0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:34.200
<v Speaker 4>Exactly.

0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:37.560
<v Speaker 1>So we're going to put links in the episode description

0:38:37.719 --> 0:38:41.000
<v Speaker 1>for people to sign petitions, call the governor.

0:38:41.200 --> 0:38:43.960
<v Speaker 2>They can also email their elected official, the assemblymen, their

0:38:44.000 --> 0:38:46.200
<v Speaker 2>senators that represent them and say, look, we don't want

0:38:46.200 --> 0:38:49.120
<v Speaker 2>discovery rollbacks, okay, we want the system to be fair.

0:38:49.360 --> 0:38:52.600
<v Speaker 2>We want people who are charged to know exactly what

0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:55.200
<v Speaker 2>the evidence is against them so that they can prepare

0:38:55.200 --> 0:38:57.799
<v Speaker 2>a defense, so that we can reduce the likelihood of

0:38:57.840 --> 0:38:58.920
<v Speaker 2>wrongful convictions.

0:38:59.160 --> 0:39:01.319
<v Speaker 1>Exactly, because I could happen to Jeff, if it could

0:39:01.320 --> 0:39:04.040
<v Speaker 1>happen to Divine, it could happen to you. I mean,

0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:06.319
<v Speaker 1>that's really the truth or somebody you love. Correct, So

0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:08.080
<v Speaker 1>if you do it for no other reason than that,

0:39:08.239 --> 0:39:10.360
<v Speaker 1>do it. But we should all care about making the

0:39:10.400 --> 0:39:13.560
<v Speaker 1>system fairer and better for everyone. And now return to

0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:18.480
<v Speaker 1>closing arguments. I'm going to just kick back and.

0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:19.319
<v Speaker 4>Not say another word.

0:39:19.520 --> 0:39:23.000
<v Speaker 1>Just listen to anything else you feel is left unsaid,

0:39:23.080 --> 0:39:26.600
<v Speaker 1>and tradition holds that, Jeff, since you're the attorney this time,

0:39:27.000 --> 0:39:30.160
<v Speaker 1>you go first, and then Divine will take us off

0:39:30.160 --> 0:39:31.480
<v Speaker 1>into the sunset.

0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:36.120
<v Speaker 2>Seven years to wait for a conviction review unit to

0:39:36.360 --> 0:39:38.719
<v Speaker 2>make a decision. Are you going to agree to overturn

0:39:38.840 --> 0:39:44.799
<v Speaker 2>or not? It's simply not justice. That's unreasonable. Diaganzalis order

0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:48.200
<v Speaker 2>your conviction review unit to make a decision on Divine

0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:49.040
<v Speaker 2>with Field's case.

0:39:49.880 --> 0:39:53.360
<v Speaker 3>I would like to echo that seven years is a

0:39:53.400 --> 0:39:57.200
<v Speaker 3>bit extreme. It doesn't take that much time to just

0:39:57.320 --> 0:39:58.760
<v Speaker 3>simply make a decision.

0:39:58.840 --> 0:39:59.440
<v Speaker 4>Seven years.

0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:02.759
<v Speaker 3>I'm quite sure if you had any intentions of investigating this,

0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:06.920
<v Speaker 3>you've had sufficient amount of time to do it. I

0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:09.520
<v Speaker 3>also want to just put great emphasis on the fact

0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:13.080
<v Speaker 3>that Arts is life saving. Also, I want to remind

0:40:13.120 --> 0:40:16.840
<v Speaker 3>everyone the site is fredivindg dot org.

0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:18.879
<v Speaker 4>Please read the evidence of the.

0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:23.360
<v Speaker 3>Innocence, sign the petition and encourage others to sign that petition.

0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:26.160
<v Speaker 4>It's not a hard task to do. That would be

0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:28.080
<v Speaker 4>highly appreciated. Thank you.

0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening to Ron for Conviction. You can

0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:39.480
<v Speaker 1>listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts

0:40:39.560 --> 0:40:42.640
<v Speaker 1>one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava

0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:45.480
<v Speaker 1>for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank

0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:48.640
<v Speaker 1>our production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well

0:40:48.680 --> 0:40:51.920
<v Speaker 1>as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and

0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:54.360
<v Speaker 1>Jeff Kleiber. The music in this production was supplied by

0:40:54.400 --> 0:40:57.480
<v Speaker 1>three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to

0:40:57.520 --> 0:41:00.640
<v Speaker 1>follow us across all social media platforms Alava for Good

0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:03.520
<v Speaker 1>and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on

0:41:03.560 --> 0:41:06.880
<v Speaker 1>Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production

0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:10.160
<v Speaker 1>of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company

0:41:10.239 --> 0:41:10.680
<v Speaker 1>Number One.

0:41:10.800 --> 0:41:13.240
<v Speaker 4>We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

0:41:13.239 --> 0:41:16.080
<v Speaker 4>in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed

0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:18.439
<v Speaker 4>by the individuals featured in this show are their own

0:41:18.520 --> 0:41:21.360
<v Speaker 4>and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.