1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: On March twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight, outside of the 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: Brookline Housing Project, a drug deal went bad, resulting in 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: the shooting death of a guy named Jimmy CALIBERA Soon, 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: a notorious thief and cyrial informant named Richard Doyle ran 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: into one of the assailants, a guy named Howard Wesley, 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: and after their encounter, Doyle claimed that a guy who 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: lived at the Brookline Houses named John Whitfield, also known 8 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: as Divine G, was one of his shooters, and while 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: Harold Wesley admitted his own involvement, he vehemently denied Divines, 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: but Wesley died in jail before getting to say so 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: at Divines trial. This is wrongful Conviction. You're listening to 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,840 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this and all the 13 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: LoVa for Good podcasts one week early and ad free 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. 15 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: All right, welcome to a very special edition of Wrongful Conviction. 16 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: And I say that in all sincerity. We have not 17 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: one but two of my personal heroes here today. Jeffrey Deskovic, 18 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: who's been on the show before as an exonery. Now 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: he's back as the attorney for a man who's yet 20 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: to be exonerated, but is as innocent as could be 21 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: and will be exonerated with your expert help. Is that 22 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: fair to say, Jeff, you're to say, Jeff Deskovic, welcome 23 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: back to wrongful conviction. 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 2: Thank you very much. And I do want to share 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: that I do represent the Vine also in collaboration with 26 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 2: Oscar Michelin. 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: And that's ironic that as other lawyers named Oscar because 28 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: the Vine was just nominated for an Oscar for his 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: film Sing Sing, So he's got Oscar covered in every direction. 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: Were you actually nominated for an Oscar or the film 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: was nominated? 32 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: No, I was nominated for Adaptive screen Well that's why 33 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 3: I went to the Oscars. You can't go to the 34 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 3: Oscars unless you're nominated, right, specifically, Yeah, sat next to 35 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 3: Ray find during the class photos. 36 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 4: It's incredible. 37 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 1: I mean, this man is just different. Twenty five years 38 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: in prison, Oscar nominated, accomplished author, playwright. I mean he's 39 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: a healer, right, I mean, this is a guy who 40 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: brought peace to a place that desperately needed it through creativity. 41 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: Divine is out shopping a number of new screenplays that 42 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: he's written. All of us are looking forward to seeing 43 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: where you go next, because this guy is truly the limit. 44 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: Sorry if I'm embarrassing you right now, but Divine, I'm 45 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: just really honored that you're here on our show. 46 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 4: I'm honored to be here, man, thank you for inviting me. 47 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 4: And this is a New York story. You were born 48 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 4: in New York, right like me? 49 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 3: Absolutely, East New York is where I actually was born 50 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 3: and had lived in Kanas and Brownsville. 51 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 4: I'm a Brooklyn Night one hundred percent. 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: And you grew up in a time when New York, 53 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,119 Speaker 1: especially in those areas, was experiencing a lot of turmoil. 54 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: But you, somehow or other, even back then, were working 55 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: on developing your artistic side. Right, Can you can tell 56 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: us a little bit about growing up in your teenage 57 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: years and what that was all like before everything went 58 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: off the rails. 59 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 3: I was kind of like a good kid. I was 60 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 3: one of them adventurous kids. I was all into really 61 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: positive and productive things. And I was around about eleven 62 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 3: twelve years old. I was so fascinated with Bruce Lee. 63 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 3: I used to make eight millimeters karate movies. Me and 64 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 3: my friend Frank Johnson, we used to make these karate 65 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 3: movies in charge our friends like a quarter a dollar. 66 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 3: That was an early state of my artistic energy. And 67 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: then I eventually started dancing. I became a really efficient dancer. 68 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 3: I actually I was recruited by a dance group called Realism, 69 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 3: and it was a semi professional group. I appeared on 70 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: television with Stephanie Mills. Y'all probably may remember the show 71 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: called Soap Factory Disco. 72 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 4: In nineteen seventy nine. It was an old show. 73 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 3: I appeared on two episodes with Stephanie Mills when she 74 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 3: was singing her song put Your Body in It. 75 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 4: I did shows with Neil. 76 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 3: Ward, Instant Funk, and a variety of other popular groups, 77 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: and I was pretty good at dancing. 78 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 4: Then. 79 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:14,119 Speaker 3: At that time I also became a DJ and eventually 80 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: became probably one of Brookline's most famous DJs. It was 81 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 3: a group I had called mix Machine. Actually in the 82 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 3: movie sing scene they mentioned it. Coleman Domingo says, yeah, 83 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 3: they used to call me mix Machine, and they mentioned 84 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 3: that name several times. And because of the dancing, eventually 85 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 3: I went to High School Performing Arts, and for those 86 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 3: who know high School Performing Arts, that's the fame school, 87 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 3: the famous Fame. 88 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 4: School from the movie Fan Yeah, from the movie Fame. 89 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 3: They filmed it in that particular school where I was at. 90 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 3: I really wanted to go there for acting, so I 91 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 3: got in with dance and I wanted to switch over 92 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: to acting. But eventually I left high school performing arts. 93 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 3: I just couldn't deal with all of the teasing, the bullying, 94 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 3: and I wasn't the type of person who really respond 95 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 3: well to abuse. I mean, I knew martial arts, I 96 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: got into a lot of so eventually I moved on 97 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: and went to Kanarsi High School, where I ultimately graduated. 98 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 4: While all that was going on, I. 99 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 3: Always kept a after school job, worked on the weekends 100 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 3: because as a DJ, I needed money to buy the records, 101 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 3: to buy the equipment, to keep things updated. That was 102 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 3: basically my life before my life, like you said, went 103 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 3: off the rails. And then I got into this accident. 104 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 3: It was severe, woke up in the hospital. It was 105 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 3: really damaged pretty bad. I couldn't work, and eventually I 106 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 3: even tried to go back to work. I started delivering pizzas. 107 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 3: I was Abdomino's pizza delivery boy, and eventually I had 108 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 3: to quit that job because of the injuries. It was 109 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 3: so much on me and the doctors telling them, you 110 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: can't work. My lawyer's telling me, you can't work. You 111 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 3: gotta let these injuries heal. Time go by, I couldn't 112 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 3: get unemployment, I couldn't get certain monies, and then I 113 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 3: made probably the biggest mistake of my life. 114 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 4: All my friends was in the game. 115 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 3: Hustling out in the street, and I was always able 116 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 3: to avoid it. But after that accident, I said, you know, 117 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 3: when I'm a sneak, out sell some drugs, and it 118 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: backfired on me. I didn't last two weeks on the 119 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 3: streets because I had no idea what I was doing. 120 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 3: I had copped out to the drug possession. I went 121 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: up state for one to three and out of the 122 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 3: clear blue Scott They brought me back down the Riker's 123 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 3: Allen and recharged me for a homicide, a homicide I 124 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 3: had absolutely nothing to do with. 125 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: It was about two months before Divine began his one 126 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: to three year bid for possession that this homicide had 127 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: occurred on March twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight, somewhere along 128 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: the stretch of one hundred and eighth Street that ran 129 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: through the Brookline Projects and much of what we know 130 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: comes from a recorded statement with one of the assailants, 131 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: a guy named Harold Wesley. 132 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 3: From what I understand, it was a drug deal gone bad. 133 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 3: It was between Shatik, Harold Wesley, an individual named Patrick, 134 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 3: and this guy named Jim. Harold Wesley calls him Jim Carabella, 135 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 3: but his actual name, according to the police reports, was 136 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 3: Rudolph MIGLARISI. What happened is the old Shatique drugs or something, 137 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 3: and Shatik wanted to drug ugs or the money, and 138 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 3: they started arguing over it, and Shatig says that he 139 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 3: pulls the gun, shoots him in the head, and then 140 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 3: he made Patrick stand there and pull the trigger. Then 141 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: they run and Harold Wessey says that he sees a 142 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: woman who was dressed in some sort of green coat 143 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: or something. That was Marjorie Shack, whom he says she 144 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: lived in that building on the third floor. 145 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: Divine only found out about this recording and Marjorie Shack 146 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: long after he had been convicted. 147 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 4: Come to find out. 148 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 3: We eventually tracked her down and Marjorie Shack also confirms 149 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 3: that she told the. 150 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 4: Police it wasn't me. 151 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: The police kept showing up pictures of me trying to 152 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 3: convince her that it was me, and she said, no, 153 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 3: it's not him, it's not him. The night that had happened, 154 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: I was across town at my stepfather's house over there 155 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: on Buffalo Avenue, and that night I remember coming in 156 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 3: and because the crime happened in the back of my building, 157 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 3: I've seen all the police ropes and police cars in 158 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 3: the back of my building, so obviously I knew something happened. 159 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 3: Next day, I'm hearing rumors in the neighborhood. Yo, some 160 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: guys from out of the neighborhood shots guy in the 161 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 3: back of the building. 162 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: So the neighborhood was buzzing. But it doesn't appear that 163 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: anyone cooperated until Harold Wesley had a run in with 164 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: police that June. 165 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 3: Harold Wesley had got arrested for possession of drugs, a 166 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 3: shotgun and the weed, and when the police pulled him over, 167 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: he was about to have a shootout with the police. 168 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 3: Somehow the shootout was avoided. Howld Wessey goes in custody. 169 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: Now he wants to cut a deal with the Feds. 170 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 3: So now atf steps in and this is how the 171 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: audio tape came about. He's on this audio tape trying 172 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 3: to cut this deal with the Feds, and now this 173 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: guy starts talking about every crime and everything he knew 174 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 3: in the neighborhood. And he's jumping all over the place too. 175 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 3: He's not focusing on one thing. He's talking about this thing. 176 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 3: Then he jumps to this, then he jumps from here. 177 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 3: He's jumping from there, and it's kind of discombobulated when 178 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 3: you read the tape. And onside one of the tape 179 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 3: he mentions me he's mentioned me about a conflict with drugs, 180 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 3: had been with some guy named R and Jr. That 181 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 3: he was trying to get me to pay him to 182 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 3: deal with JR and R. So somehow the police thought 183 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 3: that he was saying that the JR and R was 184 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: Jim Carabella. 185 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 4: So they got that whole thing all screwed up. 186 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 3: So by the time you get to side to of 187 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: the tape, you can see that they're confused. See, the 188 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 3: police already knew that it was Shatique and Patrick that 189 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 3: did it, so they confirmed that. But then he said, 190 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 3: well then what about Divine, Well did Divine order it? 191 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 3: And then Harold West They cleared it up conclusively. By 192 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 3: the end of the tape, he said, no, Divine didn't 193 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 3: order it. Even he was getting frustrated with ATF agent. 194 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: His name is Bob Hamilton. He was getting really frustrated 195 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 3: with him, like, well, why you keep bringing up this 196 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: divine character when I'm talking about something else. 197 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: And while this recording happened and Wesley was in custody, 198 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: a guy named Richard Doyle and his friend Scott Bell 199 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: were arrested for burglarizing the home of someone named mar 200 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: Sigliano as for a possession of crack. And Doyle knew 201 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: Divine from the projects, but they never got along, so 202 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: that's a bit of bad luck. When Doyle ran into 203 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: Harold Wesley. 204 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 3: Richard Doyle saw Harold Wesley's shatik in the ballpins, and 205 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 3: because they knew each other, they started talking. Now, I 206 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: guess what Shatik must have told him. Yo, They must 207 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 3: have thinked, this is the vine, because you can see 208 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: on the tape that they actually kept pressing Harold, that 209 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 3: kept mentioning my name, and Harold kept telling him no, 210 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 3: not the vine, not the vine. Then Richard Doyle came 211 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: to Scott Belly and said, yo, listen, I got a 212 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 3: way for us to get out, we can say we 213 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 3: saw Devine did this crime. 214 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 2: Richard Doyle got the idea that he was going to 215 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 2: get both of them out of jail by falsely implicating 216 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: Divine for a homicide. 217 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 3: Because Richard Doyle is a professional informant, He's been doing 218 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 3: this for a while. He testified in Pencil and Jeffrey's case, 219 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 3: he testified and Gary Reedy's case, but he testified in 220 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 3: multiple cases. 221 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 4: So he has a history of this and he knows 222 00:10:58,800 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 4: that if you. 223 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 3: Come up with this type of information that prosecutors love 224 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 3: you for this and you can get out of jail. 225 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 3: So Scott Bello says, no, I'm not doing that, No, 226 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 3: I'm not doing that. So Richard Doyle goes on about 227 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 3: his business and Scott Belli sees him talking to a 228 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 3: man in a suit and the next thing you know, 229 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 3: they walking out of prison. Then, after Richard Doyle gets 230 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: out a week later, miraculously, he goes to the police 231 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: station claiming to be an eye witness to this. 232 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: So, on the strength of this serial informants word, Divine 233 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: was transferred from Upstate to Rikers to face this homicide charge, 234 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: even though Harold Wesley had already cleared his name. 235 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 3: The minute I went on Rikers Island, like about three 236 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 3: days later, he committed suicide in Brooklyn House of Detention. Well, 237 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 3: they say he committed suicide. I did a four year 238 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 3: request and got all of the documents. They said that 239 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 3: they found him with the rope that allegedly hung him 240 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 3: under his mattress. So in essence, he hung himself, took 241 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 3: the rope off his neck and put it under his mattress. 242 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 4: So you figure that out. 243 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: But like I said, I didn't even know about Harold 244 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: was the or this confession tape until after his conviction, 245 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: let alone what he was about to face a trial. 246 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 4: I didn't know who actually was accusing me of it. 247 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 4: And to the day of trial. 248 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 3: It was a tactic that they used called trial by ambush. 249 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 4: They would hide. 250 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 3: All of the evidence from you and then on a 251 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 3: day of trial they come in there with a two 252 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 3: foot stack of documents and say here. And that's when 253 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 3: I discovered that it was this notorious crackhead. I mean, 254 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 3: he was the crackhead extraordinary in Brookline projects and he 255 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 3: accused me of this homicide. 256 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 2: And here's where discovery laws being inadequate before, which is 257 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 2: why we're fighting to try to maintain them now comes 258 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 2: into play. Okay, because this tape that Divine has mentioned, 259 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: the tape went missing many years later they claimed it 260 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: was missing. But if it had been automatic discovery right away, 261 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: very early in the process, then Divine's lawyer could have 262 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: had that tape, It could have used that at the 263 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: trial and almost certainly would have gotten an acquittal. 264 00:12:58,840 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 265 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 1: Discovery laws in New York changed from trial by ambush 266 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: to automatic discovery in twenty twenty, and right now various 267 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: nefarious forces are working to repeal this vital reform. They 268 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: want to take us back to an era when a 269 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: request for discovery was both over and underwhelming. As Divine described, 270 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: a defendant would literally receive a volume of documents that 271 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: would be near impossible or impossible even to digest on 272 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 1: the eve of or during trial. But also the prosecutor 273 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: would get to decide what was going to be given 274 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: to the defense. Right. I mean, it's the wolf guarding 275 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: the henhouse, and I don't have to tell our audience 276 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: what a Brady violation is. And in Divine's case, that 277 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: meant Carol Wesley's confession, any mention of Marjorie Shack or 278 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: the deal made with Richard Doyle, who claimed that he'd 279 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: witness Wesley and Divine shoot MILLIASI under a street lamp 280 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: from thirty five feet away, and then he'd run to 281 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: a nearby stay order to retrieve receipts for some unknown reason, 282 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: and returned to the scene with a store clerk named 283 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: Wayne Harris. 284 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: And Wayne Harris says, no, I never saw him that night, 285 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: But in terms of his credibility here in this case, 286 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: there's three provable lies. There's another twelve very likely lies. 287 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: Doyle testified that his burglary charges had been dismissed before 288 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: he'd come forward because the burglary victim's nephew, sal Mar Sigliano, 289 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: had directed he and Scott Bell to do it. He 290 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: also testified that he'd received no benefit for his testimony, 291 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: even though it was later discovered that the burglary charge 292 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: was pending through his grand jury testimony, as well as 293 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: an armed robbery charge in Nassau County that also just 294 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: poof went away. He also said that after he'd gotten 295 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: out of jail in June of eighty eight, that he 296 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: was approached by armed men who he didn't know, implying 297 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: possible witness tampering, but according to police reports written by 298 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: the lead detective, Robert Lincoln, he knew who that armed 299 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: person was and was unrelated to this case. Doyle also 300 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: claimed to have been sober for months, but on the 301 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: night he been arrested, one of the charges was for 302 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: possession of crack. In addition to Doyle, the jury heard 303 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: from the medical examiner about the cause of death, Harold 304 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: Wesley's arresting officer about the gun he found in Wesley's trunk, 305 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: and then a ballistic expert linked that gun to bullets 306 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: recovered from the scene. 307 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 2: The whole case against the Vines is based on this 308 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: one and formant the trial judge, you know, Judge Edgido 309 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: at the sentencing even says that this whole case just 310 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: comes down to Richard Doyle's credibility. 311 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 4: He said, without Richard Doyle, there was no case. 312 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: And you end up getting sentenced to concurrent terms right 313 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: of twenty five years to life, five to fifteen years, 314 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: and two to a third to seven years. 315 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 3: I mean, listen, man, it's a nightmare beyond description. You 316 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 3: know when they read it out, you know, the whole 317 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: courtroom exploded. I exploded, you know I didn't do it, 318 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 3: screaming it was just a nightmare. 319 00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 4: I couldn't believe it. 320 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: Family was crying, I was crying. It was just the 321 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 3: shark of all sharks. At the time in Clinton, Attica, 322 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 3: green Haven, that was a very racist jail. They got 323 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 3: active clanmen in Greenhn and at the time in Auburn. 324 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 4: I did my rounds. 325 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 3: But when I got to Sing Sing Sing Sing was 326 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 3: terrible too because they had a lot of drug wars, 327 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: a lot of gang violence, a lot of just a lot. 328 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 4: Of prisons are just violent, period. 329 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 3: But when I got to Sing Sing, it was a 330 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 3: blessing in disguise because Sing Sing is close to the city, 331 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 3: so they were more acclimated to have programs and people 332 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 3: were more able from the city to come up to 333 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 3: the jails. So I seen it as an opportunity. I 334 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: was on an all out mission. Being sentenced to twenty 335 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 3: five years to life can bring something to you that 336 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 3: you don't even know that you got waking up every 337 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 3: morning into a nightmare. When you go to sleep, you 338 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 3: out of the nightmare, you dreaming you free, and then 339 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 3: you wake up. 340 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 4: It was like every morning, Uh, here go this nightmare again. 341 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 4: Here we go again. 342 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 3: So that gave me that fire. I got into the NAACPA. 343 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 3: I eventually went to college, eventually got a master's degree, started. 344 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 4: RTA and rehabilitation through RTA is rehabilitation through the arts. 345 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 4: You know. 346 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 3: It was just a lot going on, and I became 347 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 3: a jail house lawyer man that was very efficient. 348 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: I learned how to do motions. 349 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 3: I learned how to do this because at that point 350 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: I knew that my entire life depended on me finding 351 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 3: a way to do it. And I'm not rich. I'm 352 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 3: a poor person. My family's poor. We don't have lawyers, 353 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: we don't have money for that. So I went in 354 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 3: that lawyer liberry and I learned, and ultimately I do 355 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 3: legal writing. I ended up becoming a very efficient novelist 356 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 3: writer because I said, once the court thought rubber stamping it, 357 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 3: I said, I gotta come up with some kind of 358 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 3: way to fight this. 359 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 4: Well writing, what can I do? I can write, and 360 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 4: ultimately my. 361 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: Memoir The Whitfield Files, won a National Writing Award. 362 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 4: It's a Pen award, right, Yeah, there's a Pen Award. 363 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: In addition to his Oscar nomination, Divine won the prestigious 364 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: Pan Award four count of four times. So we're gonna 365 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: link all of that in the episode description. He was 366 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: and still is stunningly prolific. 367 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 3: It shocked me at times when I sat back and 368 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: realized one time, I wrote three novels in one year, 369 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 3: did a four to forty article seventy eight, and was 370 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 3: running RTA, and was the president of the NAACP sponsoring 371 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 3: culture war in his classes Black History Month classes GED classes. 372 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 3: People used to ask how do you do it? And 373 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 3: one of the ways I used to do it. I 374 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 3: had a meticulous checklist system. Every year I would write 375 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 3: out what I'm gonna do for this year, and then 376 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 3: every month I would break them down into months, a 377 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 3: checklist in months, and then a checkliss in weeks, and 378 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 3: a checklist in days, and every day I would check 379 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 3: off those. So every day of my life that was living, breathing. 380 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 3: It was about doing something. If there was a moment 381 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 3: I wasn't doing something, was it was misery. It was 382 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 3: like I lived by just staying proactive and moving. 383 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: And he brought that drive and organizational prowess to his 384 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: appellate fight as a pro say litigant, meaning he was 385 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: on his own without an attorney, and after his initial 386 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: appeals were denied, his first post conviction motion, known as 387 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: a four to forty in New York, was based on 388 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: Doyle's perjured testimony that his burglary charges had been dismissed 389 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: before he even spoke to police about this, and that 390 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: he'd received no benefit. But Divine found out that Doyle's 391 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: charges hadn't been dismissed until after his grand jury testimony. 392 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: This was a Brady violation as well as false testimony, 393 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: and in addition, Scott Bell gave an affidavit about Doyle's 394 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: plan to falsely accused Divine who he didn't like, to 395 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: get their charges dismissed, and there was also an affidavit 396 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: from the burglary victim, Salmar Sigliano about how he tried 397 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: to press charges but nothing ever materialized. Yet somehow, the 398 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: motion was denied in nineteen ninety six, so Divine moved 399 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: on to federal habeas and filed a Foyer request with 400 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: the King County DA, which turned up a disclosure for 401 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: him that mentioned a tape. 402 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 3: When I finally realized that there was a tape, they 403 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 3: adamantly insist that there was no tape that exists. I 404 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 3: did an article seventy eight to try to compel them Finally, 405 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 3: a judge in King's County said, you either have to 406 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 3: produce that tape or you're going to have to do 407 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: a very detailed APPI dated explaining why this tape doesn't exist. 408 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 3: These documents says that this tape exists. I eventually had 409 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 3: to do a motion to have him held in contempt 410 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 3: the court. I was doing all of this pro say, 411 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 3: and the judge granted it. 412 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 4: Then and only then did all. 413 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 3: Of a sudden, out of the clear blue sky the 414 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: mailman that does the mail, the mail officer comes to 415 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: my gate with a tape and lays it here and 416 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 3: have me signed for it. 417 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 4: I'm like, wow, so they did have the tape. 418 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 3: They lied to The judge kept telling the no tape exists, 419 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 3: No tape exists. Yah, this is nothing, and I'm looking 420 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 3: and then we finally, when I listened to the tape, 421 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 3: I said, I see why they did this. 422 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 2: Day Harold Wesley, when he was being questioned by the HF, 423 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 2: he mentioned that he did the crime with Patrick from 424 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: Queen's Divines from Brooklyn. His name's not Patrick. 425 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 3: I couldn't sleep for three days after listening to this tape, 426 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 3: shocked by the fact that these people had this tape 427 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 3: in their possession, with this man telling them I wasn't 428 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 3: a shooter and I didn't order it. So that's what 429 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 3: turns this case until a grecious misconduct. You're listening to 430 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,479 Speaker 3: this tape. This man is exonerating me, and you're hiding it, 431 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 3: and this is malicious. 432 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 1: So they had that tape, and they had every reason 433 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: to believe that they should go look for this guy Patrick. 434 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: Of course, from the very beginning, did they know Patrick's 435 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: identity or just Patrick from Queen's. 436 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 3: Nobody was able to track them down. I mean, that's 437 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 3: the full extent of what we know Patrick from Queens. 438 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 1: At this point, Divine pursued a success of four forty 439 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,479 Speaker 1: with Brady material that would have definitely changed the verdict. 440 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: It should have been a slam dunk, but it was 441 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,199 Speaker 1: inexplicably denied, as was his amended federal habeas and a 442 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: slough of successive four forties. But Divine was able to 443 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: put the demoralizing legal system in the background, not only 444 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: for himself but for others as well, when he co 445 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: founded what turned out to be the subject of his 446 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated screenplay, And of course I'm referring to RTA 447 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: or rehabilitation through the arts. 448 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 3: One of the things that I vowed that if I 449 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 3: got to stay here in this place, I'm gonna find 450 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 3: every way in my powers to make sure that any 451 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 3: and everybody that I can touch make sure that they 452 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 3: get out and don't come back. 453 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 4: I'm gonna find a way. 454 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 3: To strip the system of the thing that they needed most. 455 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 3: That was kind of like my fire, like, if I 456 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 3: can help them, these guys stay out because Gods was 457 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 3: coming back and it was hurting me. It was like, Wow, 458 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 3: I'm trying so hard to get out of this place, 459 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 3: and so you guys are coming right back. So that 460 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 3: was the creation of RTA, finding a way to make 461 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 3: sure that when these guys got out, they stayed out. 462 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: And our audience will recall hearing about RTA from Jermaine Archer, 463 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: Eric Clisson, Johnny and Capier JJ Velasquez JJ, who actually 464 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: plays himself in the Oscar nominated film Sing Sing. It's 465 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: a theater group in the most unlikely place, a maximum 466 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: security prison where guys have to do more than just 467 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: wear a tough face to survive. 468 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 4: I saw the power of art. 469 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 3: You got to remember, like I explained to you earlier, 470 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 3: I've been in entertainer, My Whole Life, movies, dancing on 471 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: TV DJ. 472 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 4: And the whole work. 473 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 3: So arts are what I describe as an explosive expression 474 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 3: of humanity. It has this amazing way of allowing people 475 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 3: to relax and to be comfortable with each other, to 476 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 3: sometimes take the mass off. 477 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 4: It wasn't easy. Now they don't think it was a 478 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 4: walk in the park. But we had a strong steering committee, 479 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 4: the founders of this program. We had some good guys 480 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 4: and we will shout them out, which man. 481 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 3: Dino Belaud, David Wayne Peto, Shorty King, Herm. 482 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 4: You know, this is just quite a few, It's a 483 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 4: few more. 484 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 3: It was we had a strong network of good, solid 485 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 3: people that were well respected in the system. So when 486 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 3: you've seen a guy like Diano or Blaud or Shorty 487 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 3: King and me update, they're like, wow, these guys was 488 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 3: walking the yards of Attica and Clinton and these guys 489 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 3: as stand up dudes, And it would give other people 490 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 3: permission to say, damn, if they can do it, we 491 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 3: want to do it because subconsciously a lot of people 492 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 3: really want to do like things that's open, and we 493 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 3: give them permission to explore. 494 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 4: Then in our program, since it's about. 495 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 3: Healing, it's about brotherhood, it's about camaraderie. 496 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 4: When you came in, we kind of. 497 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 3: Prepped you that, bruh, you're gonna be dealing with some 498 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 3: unfamiliar behavior around here because you're gonna have to open up. 499 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 3: We're gonna have to learn how to work with each other. 500 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 3: And once we've built it into the program, it just 501 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 3: started to blossom and work. And one of the criterias 502 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 3: that we always had that was built into the program 503 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 3: is that if anybody leaves Sing Sing, go start it 504 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 3: up wherever you go. We want to share it with 505 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 3: as many people as we can. And we got like 506 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 3: eight different facilities with RTA, and now it's expanded all 507 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 3: the way to Ohio and in California based. 508 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 4: On the movie, so it's expanded. 509 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 3: We really would love to have this thing available all 510 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: across the country if it was up to me. 511 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: And what have been the results of this program in 512 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: terms of violence and recidivism. 513 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 3: Listen, RTA has a recidivism level of three percent in 514 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 3: comparison to sixty percent of the national average of prisoners 515 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 3: who leave and don't get this type of program or 516 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 3: this type of involvement. Sixty percent of them come back 517 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 3: with than three years. So I think RTA gave certain 518 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 3: segments of society something to live for, because when they 519 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 3: wanted to get into RTA, we used to kind of 520 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 3: tell them, Okay, you got to stay out of trouble 521 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 3: for this amount of time, and we would give them 522 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 3: an incentive they want to stay out of trouble. 523 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: Three recentivism made I want to just let that linger 524 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: for a second. 525 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, why you think I wrote so much? 526 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: Because every time when I started writing a novel, I 527 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 3: was enmeshed in those stories, creating these characters in these 528 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 3: worlds and these images. I was escaping, and every time 529 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 3: I touched the stage it was therapeutic. 530 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 4: It was cathartic. 531 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 3: It was like that moment when I'm becoming the character 532 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 3: on stage, in that world of the character, I was free. 533 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 4: I had to have that freedom. 534 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: Because when we had to go back to ourselves, it 535 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: was like, well, the nightmare begins again. 536 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 4: And RTA was that escapism. 537 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 3: And the beautiful thing about RTA we were able to 538 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 3: find love amongst so much hate, plain and simpers. Ultimately, 539 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 3: as the movie sing scene depicts, I eventually got a 540 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 3: clemency heart from Governor Elliot, Spitzer, who was considering me 541 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 3: for a full parton. If you could get a governor 542 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 3: to look at this and consider you for a full parton, 543 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 3: it has to be something there. 544 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: And according to Divine, the clemency board was confused as 545 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: to what they were missing about this evidence. Why hadn't 546 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: an appellate court granted belief, which, by the way, are 547 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: great fucking questions. But they let their disbelief and uncertainty 548 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: lead them to deny clemency for Divine. And so again 549 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: Divine went back to the drawing board, hiring an investigator 550 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 1: who found out about Richard Doyle's arm robbery charge in 551 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: Nasau County that was also dismissed around the time of 552 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: his testimony. So a success of four point forty was filed, 553 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: and you guessed it, that was denied too, at which 554 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: point Divine wrote to the newly formed Deskovic Foundation. 555 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: Divine had wrote, my organization. I mean, people remember me 556 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: from other episode, but in brief, I did sixteen years 557 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 2: in prison myself for a murdering rate before DNA exonerated me, 558 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 2: and eventually I went to law school and became an attorney, 559 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 2: started the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for justice. 560 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 4: So with your own money, with. 561 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 2: My own money, Yes, that's true. So Divine wrote us, 562 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: and we evaluated his case and we determined he was innocent, 563 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 2: and we saw a potential route to exoneration. But while 564 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: we were doing investigative work, he had a parole board 565 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 2: appearance coming. And it's always our policy to try to 566 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 2: get our clients out however it is we can, so 567 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: that they could be free while the long, often uncertain 568 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 2: road to exoneration takes place. So we wrote a letter 569 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: to the parole board which outlined all the primary and 570 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: secondary reasons why we believed in Divine's innocence. And as 571 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,959 Speaker 2: people probably know listening to your podcast, if you maintain 572 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 2: your innocence rather than expressing remorse and take responsibility, you'd 573 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: almost always denied parole. So it already unjust prison stay 574 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: gets extended. 575 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: But he was paroled, and that was twenty twelve. So 576 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,720 Speaker 1: while an attorney with Jeff's Foundation, Rita Deve hired an 577 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: investigator and worked on his case, Divine continued some of 578 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: the work he'd been doing inside as a youth counselor. 579 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: When his past connection to the arts scene in New 580 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: York afforded him an incredible, almost unreal opportunity. 581 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 3: When I got out of prison right in twenty twelve, 582 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 3: Lil Wayne's road manager approached me. 583 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 4: It's this guy named Ei. 584 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 3: Actually, when I was a DJ, I used to look 585 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 3: out for him and his little sister let him come 586 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 3: behind the ropes and stuff, and e I knew I 587 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 3: was innocent too, and everybody knew I caught a bad deal. 588 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: So when I got out, he came and picked me 589 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 3: up a Bentley, gave me some money and said, yo, 590 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 3: you want to go on my tour with Lil Wayne. 591 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 3: I said, damn right, I want to go. He said, listen, 592 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 3: I'll let you be a stage manager. If you can 593 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 3: get on, this tour is yours. At first, they wasn't 594 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 3: gonna let me go. The pro office admits, you crazy. 595 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 3: You just got out of prison for murder. 596 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 4: You think you going on a tour with a famous rapper? 597 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 4: Are you crazy? I said, man, all right, cool. 598 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 3: I've did an article seventy eight folled a major lawsuit. 599 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 3: Then I got some media people involved, and I did 600 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 3: emergency court for seeding, which is called an injunction. So 601 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,959 Speaker 3: they did it like within a week. I was in 602 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 3: front of the judge and I went on that tour. 603 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: Man. 604 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 4: It was like the best seven months of my life. Man. 605 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 3: And all that came about just because when I was 606 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 3: a DJ, when I was young, I had this history 607 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 3: of just looking out for people. 608 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: And thankfully Jeff and Rider were looking out for Divine 609 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: as well. Obviously, Harold Wesley was deceased, but they got 610 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: in touch with his brother Ralph, who gave an affid 611 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: David that his brother told him the same story that 612 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: he killed familiar Racey with Patrick from Queen's. They'd also 613 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: tracked down the woman in the green coat and Divine's 614 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: ali by witness by Endevory. 615 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: So in terms of Divine's innocence, there's a tape we 616 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: just mentioned Wesley confessed to his brother. Okay, there's also 617 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 2: Divine's alibi. He was with Bryant Devery Marjorie Shack, who 618 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: knew Divine from the neighborhood. She said she heard the 619 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 2: gunshots and people running, that they passed by her, that 620 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: it was not Divine. Her story is corroborated by another 621 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 2: witness who also didn't see anybody, but corroborated the direction 622 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 2: that the perpetrators were running from. So we got all 623 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: this evidence of his innocence juxtaposed with one informant Okay crackhead, 624 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: three lies, many other lies contradicted by witnesses. I mean, 625 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 2: it doesn't make any sense. 626 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: But instead of filing another four to forty, they applied 627 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: to the King's County Conviction Integrity Unit in twenty eighteen, 628 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: who allegedly reinvestigated Divine's case. But by twenty twenty three 629 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: there was still no relief. And at this point Oscar 630 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: michelin enjoined the team. 631 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 2: Five years had passed by without the Conviction Review Unit 632 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: doing anything. So from there we had a meeting with 633 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 2: the then head of the Conviction Review Unit, Charles Lenahan, 634 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 2: and the line attorney, and Elenahan said, look, I haven't 635 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 2: read the case, but I took the meeting as a courtesy, 636 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: but I have the line attorney here, and she was 637 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 2: intimating like they just hit brick walls, and like she 638 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: wanted to say. She was on the verge of saying 639 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: we're going to close the case. But I'm fast on 640 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 2: my feet sometimes, and I saw what she was about 641 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 2: to do, and if she had gotten that sentence out, 642 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: politically it would have been hard for the unit chief 643 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 2: to overrule her. So I jumped in and I said, well, 644 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: what about this witness? What about that witness? Did you 645 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: talk to this one? Did you talk to that one? 646 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: No? 647 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: So I ignore her and say that the unit chief, Well, 648 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 2: how can you guys be about ready to close his 649 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 2: case when there's all these witnesses that you haven't spoken to. Look, 650 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 2: can we submit a twelfth page report to you outlining 651 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: all the evidence of Divine's innocence. We'll have complete references 652 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: to the record, and we'll contrast that with this one informant. 653 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 2: So he gave us the okay, and so sixty hours later, 654 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 2: you know, a twelve page memo was sent to the 655 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: conviction review unit. A year goes by and again nothing happens. 656 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: And the next thing we know, we're getting word that 657 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: he's leaving the unit, going to go into a private practice, 658 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 2: And we naturally reached out to him again, kind of 659 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: in desperation because we really don't know who the new 660 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 2: unit chief is going to be. And so we just 661 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: read the report and at the end of the day, 662 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: he did nothing. The most he did was had the 663 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: case assigned to a different lawyer. The lawyer that had 664 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: did nothing left the unit. I guess she was never 665 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: enthusiastic about doing conviction review to begin with, but he 666 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 2: assigned it to somebody else and Oscar emailed him. I 667 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: piggybacked off of it. I did like a short reiteration 668 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: of all the evidence of his innocence. I reattached the 669 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 2: report and we heard nothing. And so it's been two years. 670 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 2: They appear to not be working at all on Divine's case. 671 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: So our strategy at this point is we're doing as 672 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 2: much media as we can. We have a petition for 673 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 2: Divine which calls for the Brooklyn District Attorney to order 674 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 2: his conviction of unit, just to make a decision. It's 675 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: been seven years. Just make a decision. It's been seven 676 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 2: years already now, So people listening like to sign the petition, 677 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: spread it around. We certainly need that. The website is 678 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 2: fredivine g dot org. We're hoping that if we get 679 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,959 Speaker 2: enough petition signatures that die Gonzalez will order the unit 680 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: to make a decision. We could pull his case from 681 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 2: the unit right now if we wanted to, and file 682 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 2: a post conviction motion and litigate. That's going to take 683 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 2: about two years, okay, and maybe we win. We're supposed 684 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: to win by everything, that's right, but he might not. 685 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 2: But we don't want Divine to walk around with this 686 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: conviction for another two years that it's going to take. 687 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 2: Hence trying to gather petition signatures. 688 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: It's freedivineg dot org. We'll have it linked in the 689 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: episode description as well. So sign the petition in the 690 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: hopes that Kings County will finally do right by Divine 691 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: and if not, they'll move on to another four to 692 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 1: forty to resolve a case for which Divine should have 693 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: never gone to trial in the first place. Additionally, a 694 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: case in which the current discovery laws might have given 695 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: Divine a fighting chance. 696 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 2: We helped myself in many organizations and advocates when we 697 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 2: helped improve the discovery laws. All the information had to 698 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 2: be turned over automatically within the first two weeks, and 699 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 2: if the prosecutor didn't have everything together in the first 700 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 2: two weeks, they had another two weeks. Anything passed a 701 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 2: month they would have to get a court order to extend. Okay. 702 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 2: So that's how we improved it. 703 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: Laws that are right now under attack. 704 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 2: Well, the District Attorney's Association and a lot of law 705 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 2: enforcement they did a campaign of fear mongering all of 706 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 2: a sudden, Now we're not can build of solve crimes. 707 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,799 Speaker 2: People aren't going to want to come forward. Now we're 708 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 2: going to have witness intimidation, witnesses being killed. Which was 709 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 2: all just a bunch of rhetoric. Because New Jersey, a 710 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: border state to New York Okay, has had automatic open 711 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 2: file discovery for many years, and as I often joke 712 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: in order to make the policy point, we don't have 713 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 2: bodies floating up and down the Hudson River, Okay. So 714 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: there's all a bunch of fear mongering. 715 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 4: Now. 716 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: Aside from the fear mongering, the other complaint is they're 717 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: trying to say that because of the discovery laws, that 718 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 2: many cases are being dismissed by judges because the prosecutors 719 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 2: are not turning over the information and timely manner. So, 720 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: first of all, that's not true statistically, and second of all, 721 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 2: to the extent that any case gets dismissed, why not 722 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 2: get on the prosecutor meet your deadlines, right. And so 723 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 2: the latest and greatest on that Governor Hokele now wants 724 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 2: to repeal the discovery law. They want to try to 725 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: modify it. First of all, they want to say that 726 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 2: a defense attorney would only have thirty five days now 727 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 2: to complain that you haven't gotten all the evidence turned over. Right, 728 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 2: that makes no sense because to me, whether it's on 729 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 2: day one or day two hundred, whenever it is that 730 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 2: you realize that you haven't been given all the discovery material, 731 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 2: you should be able to make a complaint, put that 732 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 2: on the record, object, etc. So that's one aspect of it. 733 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 2: Second thing is they want to go back to where 734 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 2: instead of turning over everything, they want the prosecutors to 735 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 2: look through the file and determine what can be helpful 736 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,879 Speaker 2: to the defense and turn that over, which is part 737 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 2: of the problem. 738 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 4: Before the wolf was guarding the henhouse. 739 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 2: Exactly right, and that was all under Brady. 740 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 4: Now. 741 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 2: The second aspect of it is called Rosario material, and 742 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 2: in a common sense way of talking about it, the 743 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: prosecutor would only have to turn over information pertaining to 744 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 2: witnesses that they were planning to call at a hearing 745 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 2: or at a trial. They would often do that on 746 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 2: the eve of a hearing, on the eve of a trial, 747 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: So not only is there not enough time to read 748 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 2: through the material, investigate, interview witnesses, incorporate that into your strategy. 749 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: But also if they didn't want you to know about 750 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 2: a witness, just don't call them at the hearing or 751 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: the trial, and they wouldn't have to turn anything over. 752 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 2: So that's the way that. 753 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: It was as opposed to a civil case where you 754 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: have to turn over everything. 755 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,320 Speaker 4: Correct, if you and I have a business dispute. 756 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 1: Literally you have to turn over everything, and all that 757 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 1: systake is money, And here you're dealing with somebody's freedom, 758 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:17,399 Speaker 1: their life right. 759 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 2: When I brought a federal civil rights lawsuit in connection 760 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 2: with my being wrongfully imprisoned, I had more discovery rights 761 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: as a plaintiff bringing the lawsuit than what I did 762 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 2: when I was a criminal defendant defending myself against the 763 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: false charges. 764 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 4: Exactly. 765 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: So we're going to put links in the episode description 766 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: for people to sign petitions, call the governor. 767 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 2: They can also email their elected official, the assemblymen, their 768 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 2: senators that represent them and say, look, we don't want 769 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 2: discovery rollbacks, okay, we want the system to be fair. 770 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 2: We want people who are charged to know exactly what 771 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 2: the evidence is against them so that they can prepare 772 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 2: a defense, so that we can reduce the likelihood of 773 00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: wrongful convictions. 774 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: Exactly, because I could happen to Jeff, if it could 775 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: happen to Divine, it could happen to you. I mean, 776 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: that's really the truth or somebody you love. Correct, So 777 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: if you do it for no other reason than that, 778 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,360 Speaker 1: do it. But we should all care about making the 779 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: system fairer and better for everyone. And now return to 780 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: closing arguments. I'm going to just kick back and. 781 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 4: Not say another word. 782 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: Just listen to anything else you feel is left unsaid, 783 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: and tradition holds that, Jeff, since you're the attorney this time, 784 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: you go first, and then Divine will take us off 785 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 1: into the sunset. 786 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 2: Seven years to wait for a conviction review unit to 787 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,719 Speaker 2: make a decision. Are you going to agree to overturn 788 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 2: or not? It's simply not justice. That's unreasonable. Diaganzalis order 789 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 2: your conviction review unit to make a decision on Divine 790 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 2: with Field's case. 791 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 3: I would like to echo that seven years is a 792 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 3: bit extreme. It doesn't take that much time to just 793 00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 3: simply make a decision. 794 00:39:58,840 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 4: Seven years. 795 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 3: I'm quite sure if you had any intentions of investigating this, 796 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 3: you've had sufficient amount of time to do it. I 797 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 3: also want to just put great emphasis on the fact 798 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 3: that Arts is life saving. Also, I want to remind 799 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 3: everyone the site is fredivindg dot org. 800 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:18,879 Speaker 4: Please read the evidence of the. 801 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 3: Innocence, sign the petition and encourage others to sign that petition. 802 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 4: It's not a hard task to do. That would be 803 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 4: highly appreciated. Thank you. 804 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ron for Conviction. You can 805 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts 806 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava 807 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank 808 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: our production team Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well 809 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and 810 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: Jeff Kleiber. The music in this production was supplied by 811 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,480 Speaker 1: three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to 812 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: follow us across all social media platforms Alava for Good 813 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on 814 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: Instagram at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production 815 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company 816 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: Number One. 817 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,240 Speaker 4: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported 818 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 4: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed 819 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 4: by the individuals featured in this show are their own 820 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 4: and do not necessarily reflect those of Lava for Good.