WEBVTT - Episode 50: The Bechdel Test 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.880 Hello, Hello, Hello, welcome to another edition of d I 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:16.240 am one half of your host Danny Fan isn't sitting 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:21.239 across from me as always as if you way, how 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.439 are you doing? I'm doing good? If you were you 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.520 asking me or were you asking the audience collectively? And 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.160 you know I was asking the royal We everyone involved, 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.880 front to back, side to side, up and down all around. Yeah, 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:38.919 how are you doing? How are you feeling? Maybe you 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.480 know today was a rough day and you were along 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.599 with me for it. And you know, people can keep 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.800 up with my life on social media, so I know 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.680 Danny was going through hard stuff. Meanwhile, I was playing 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:55.640 Apex Legends all day. Your your your struggle was also 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.920 hard you uh you know you'd be you know. Something 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.200 to note is they released a new hero out uh 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:08.240 called Octane, who is Latin x h yeah and he 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:11.440 uh he's also disabled. He has to uh metal legs 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.280 and he runs real fast. Now you know they've been 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:19.160 It's it's funny because they've been effortlessly diversifying the game, 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.840 like they have Bloodhound, who is uh non binary. You 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.400 have uh, you know Gibraltar, who is a you know, 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:32.400 Maori gay biker. Uh you know, so so you know 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.479 all that stuff, all that stuff that and and it's 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:39.720 people in the real world are what's fun about it 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.720 is it's such a good game that no one's been 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.400 complaining too much about it. I was there's someone I 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:47.640 still don't know if it's a joke or not, honestly 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.240 don't care. But the one white male character is this 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:55.280 guy who who drops like this toxic bombs. And so 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:57.680 someone made a YouTube video that was like, the one 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.960 white male is the toxic white male read between the lines. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.640 There's like it's funny because it's like, oh man, this 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:06.520 is a great character if it is. But we live 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.920 in a time where you just can't tell. But if 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.240 you're doing a character, good job. If you're not, you 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.960 know what I mean. Um, I wanted to introduce our guests. 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:21.680 They are both They are in our studio here there 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:25.000 at our how stuff work stuff. I heart media studio. 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:36.640 There we go podcast studio works. What we are Disney. Um. 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.359 That's Caitlin Dante and Jimmy Loftus of Bechtel Cast. Thank 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:44.680 you for joining us. Yeah, we today are talking about 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:48.960 the Bechtel Tests. Yeah, really excited about it. Me and Caitlin. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.679 We're matching. We both have pesta. You're the same. Yeah, 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:59.520 we take a picture. Yeah, let's do it. Look my Instagram, 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.359 always trying to show the looks and always trying to 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:07.480 show the friends. I was on y'all's podcast Were You 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.280 on It? Black Panther episode lauded as one of the 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:17.400 best episodes of their podcast, people that Yes, look I was. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:19.600 You caught me out a good time. I was charged 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:21.960 up on Black Panther Energy. I was doing voices, I 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.400 was re enacting scenes. It is the most ridiculous I've 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.480 been on any podcast ever. You're reenacting full scenes, like 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.560 playing every single part I was going to. I was 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:39.640 on the Lota Croft tomb Raider episode and introduced the 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:44.840 cast to women in fridges watches, Uh yeah, fridging the 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:47.760 doom fridging and how gayl Simone came up with that 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:49.640 whole website. If you don't know what that is, it's 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.720 essentially when a female character is killed to further the 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:56.040 plot of a male character, which is very common, and 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:58.680 that website still exists. It's really cute because I think 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.960 it still has like almost n these ish looking software too. 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.880 It like a space Jam website. Yeah, I think they 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:07.880 did that with Captain Marvel too. They made it like 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.720 nineties for her website. Yeah, so we are talking about 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:14.920 the Bechdel tests. Wh Why did y all decide that 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:19.760 you wanted to make a podcast about this? Caitlin, Well, 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:24.400 I suppose it was my idea, Bragg, But basically, I 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.640 am a huge film buff, to the extent that I 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:32.760 stupidly got two different degrees in film and spent you know, 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:35.799 tens of thousands of dollars on an education and film 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.280 and uh yeah, I mean movies. Movies are life for me, 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:47.400 umnestly crazy, I mean brave, really really brave. Yeah, everyone 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:51.480 started hashtaging Caitlin brave. Um. So I love movies and 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.719 I wanted to talk about them and kind of reconcile 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.440 the fact that a lot of my favorite movies treat 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:01.279 women horribly, or at least the movies that I grew 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:04.960 up with and just had become accustomed to watch. Some 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.280 of those that you discovered, like, oh crap, I love 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:12.880 me awful, but I didn't didn't have the representation of 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:17.720 women yet, right, Um. The Big Three were like for me, 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.440 it was like the like trilogies of Back to the Future, 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.200 Indiana Jones, and Star Wars like those were like the 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:29.400 crux of my childhood movie development. Uh and then just 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:36.120 any I mean most movies since and before those were 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:39.119 also not great to women. So I just I wanted 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:43.280 to kind of examine these movies more closely, just any 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:47.640 movie that has had like a big cultural impact and uh, 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:50.320 you know, take a look at them and figure out, 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:55.960 you know, maybe how much media is responsible for the 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.600 patriarchy still being a thing. Um. And so yeah, we 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.240 just to I I asked Jamie if she wanted to 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.840 collaborate with me on this idea, and she was very down. 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.160 And two and a half years later, here we are, 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.280 Oh my gosh, that sounds about the same as krilling it. 0:06:13.400 --> 0:06:15.480 And eventually nerdifficent. I was like, hey, you want to 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:19.440 do this. I was like, yeah, yeah, good idea. And 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.720 I had seen, like, I have not seen a lot 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.520 of well now I have when the podcast started, I 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:28.600 had not seen like most of I had also technically 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:34.480 onto film school, but technically I went, but I've majored 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.680 in radio, so I had also had to use the 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:49.880 medium more radio worth it thousands in debt. Uh. But yeah, 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.720 and I hadn't seen most of the movies that we 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.000 covered and so it was like an in real time education. 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:58.880 But I think it helps to get those two different 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.520 perspectives from like me, who like is apologetic to a 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.360 lot of these movies and then you're like, oh, I'm 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.520 just seeing them for the first time and wow, they're 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.680 not good. Yeah that makes sense, Yeah, because you're watching 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.600 them with like an air of nostalgia too. Yeah. So 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.200 for people that don't know what is the Bechdel test 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.360 is our favorite thing to explain to the Bechdel Test. 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:23.720 We can get into the history of it, but just 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.960 like the version and the way that we use it, 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.960 because there's a few different like permutations of it. But 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:33.440 it's a test that is applied to media, usually movies 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:37.400 and TV, in which a movie that passes the Bechtel 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:41.320 test has a scene with two female identifying characters who 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.120 have names, who talk to each other about something other 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.520 than a man for at least two lines of dialogue. 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.440 That's our version. That's our version. There's a bunch of 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.200 different versions. They're simpler ones, there's more demanding ones, but 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.239 that's the one we use, okay. Yeah, And it originally 0:07:56.320 --> 0:08:00.559 started from Alison Bechdel, right, who wrote in a comic 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.520 strip that was Dikes to Watch out for that appeared 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.640 in nine and we'll have a link to the actual 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.160 comics so y'all can see it. But it was essentially 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:11.120 two women that were trying to go see a movie 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:13.640 and had that same thing where they were saying, I 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:15.600 only go to see a movie if it satisfies three 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.800 basic requirements, when it has to have at least two 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.040 women in it who talked to each other and about 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.679 something other than a man. And then it ends with saying, 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.040 the last movie I saw was Alien. Yes, that was 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:30.040 like that, which is funny because that movie barely passes 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.959 the Bee. So because they're talking about the alien and 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:39.280 or protocol on the shipsina monster as with every like 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:43.640 major sci fi movie as a vaginal monster because yourgina's 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:48.160 are scary, scary, so wild. And then there's just to 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.880 give a little bit more context on that is Alison 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:55.240 Bechdel is a queer cartoonist. A lot of her work 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.120 has been about, you know, her identity as a queer woman. 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.439 And if you've seen fun Home, which is like a 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.760 very famous comic book and musical, now that that was 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:09.480 all her. Yeah, And in the context, this test derives 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:14.040 from it's these two women who basically they they've established 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:18.200 these kind of guidelines for this test because they there's 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:22.160 so little representation of queer women in movies that they 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:24.760 are like, oh, well, if two women are in a 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.360 movie and they're not talking about men, that kind of 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.800 allows me to ship them together and pretend that I 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.679 am seeing like two queer women on screen. So like, 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.719 that's a little bit more of the context that has 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.160 gone largely ignored in conversations about the Bechtel tests, like 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:44.239 as it's been sort of appropriated to more like mainstream 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:48.120 entertainment stuff. But and and yeah, like unlike I mean, 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.720 I guess sort of like a lot of these metrics 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.040 that have come more into the conversation in the past 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:57.080 ten years, it wasn't originally intended to be a metric. 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.400 It was just like a joke that she she said, 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.679 it was a quote, a little lesbian joke in an 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:07.079 alternative feminist newspaper um And then like twenty years after 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:09.520 it came out, everyone's like, oh, this is here, it 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.000 is this is the rule and the hard and fast 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:15.280 tests feminism. But it was I mean, at the at 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.320 the time that it was the only thing that anyone 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.000 had it's so strange. It's and we've found, like through 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.880 our podcast that it's definitely it's not the test by 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.400 any means. It's definitely flawed. You can have two women 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:33.240 in a movie talking about some really dark um that 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.880 doesn't test. There's very often they're talking about something extremely 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:41.080 domestic and still pretty starry types um that makes sense 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:48.679 talking and movies are always talking about either clothes, food, 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:58.120 or cooking other domestic chores birth like babies. There are, 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.040 of course exceptions, but we come up on this a 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:01.880 lot where a movie will pass the test and then 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.319 it's like, but they talked about cooking, but there's like, 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.680 but that exchange was so or is this like an 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.760 exchange that's so like just like, hey, what's up? Nothing? 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:17.240 And then they're like, wow, it's a feminist text. Um. Yeah. So. 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:20.200 Alison Bechdel also credited the idea to her friend Liz 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.000 Wallace and the writings of Virginia Wolf. After the test 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:26.559 became more widely discussed in the two thousands, a number 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:29.079 of variants like y'all were saying came out that we 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.480 will also get into. So in her nineteen essay A 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.280 Room of One's Own Virginia Wolf observed about the literature 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.040 of her time with what equivalent would be of the 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:43.640 Bechdel test back then that essentially it was largely the 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:47.120 same thing, largely male. I mean, also who was Who's 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.439 writing most of these roles? You know? Like that for 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.319 because a study of gender portrayals in eight hundred and 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:59.040 fifty five of the most financially successful US films ranging 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.559 from nineteen five d to two thousand and six, And 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.160 they did another study after that, but during that range 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.360 show that there were on average two male characters for 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.440 each female character, a ratio that has remained stable over time. 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.199 Female characters were portrayed as being involved in sex twice 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.440 as often as male characters, and their proportion of scenes 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.120 with explicit sexual content increased over time. Have you all 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.000 seen that as you've had to watch all these because 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.720 you watch like a movie a week for your podcast. Yeah, 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.760 I mean I think we do. It's we rarely cover 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.319 movies that didn't come out post seventy ish. We've only 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.680 done a few older movies. But you can see. I mean, 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.319 I always I feel like I always get harsh feedback 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.559 every time I'm like really critical of eighties movies. But 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:45.760 I think that that is like the eighties and nineties, 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.840 it's sort of had problematic peak um for for stuff 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.839 like that. I've found, I don't what do you think. 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:56.199 I mean, Yeah, it depends on the filmmaker, and it 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:59.079 depends on a few different things. But yeah, there's a 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:04.400 whole swaw of very problematic movies from those eras and 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:09.439 from before and from yesterday. So it's just an ongoing trend. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.000 And the more we watch, I mean, yeah, we definitely 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.800 we're noticing a lot of trends. We're noticing a lot 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:19.079 of tropes in terms of how women are represented and treated. 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.199 I mean the ones that you listed, there's also you know, 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.680 so few women of color in movie in mainstream movies, 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.000 or so few queer women, uh so, a few you know, 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.400 women with disabilities, any any group that's marginalized. It is 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:35.760 rare to see them represented, and when they're represented, it's 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:41.640 always in very specific trophy ways. Yeah, this was a 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.080 conversation that I tried to have on Twitter as civilly 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:51.480 as possible about you know, people people really okay, because 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:55.040 the whole thing with Netflix and Steven Spielberg trying to 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:57.439 basically discredit some of the films that were on there, 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:02.840 including Roma, which won an Academy Award. So my argument 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:06.160 about Netflix, which also just canceled one day at a time, 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.840 so not great. This my argument was before that happened, 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.559 but which was a great representation of both women of 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.400 color and the queer community and veterans. To be honest, um, 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.320 but my issue is that a lot of people are like, oh, 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.040 Netflix doesn't care about about real cinema, and if you did, 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.040 you would have films from the fifties, you know, you 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.400 only have these current films. I'm like, yeah, but okay, 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.480 those films from the fifties didn't really include us at all, 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.560 you know. I'm like, there weren't so great for women 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.080 of color, people of color in general. So the fact 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:41.360 that there's such a wealth of of filmmakers of color 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.160 and specifically women of color that are in a lot 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:48.000 of these Netflix films, to me, it's like, I understand 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.720 what you're saying, but also it is giving a more 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.520 diverse platform for people that didn't previously have it. And 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.840 also we are still considered real film Like to me, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:00.560 when you say that, when you say, oh, they don't 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.400 have real films, what you're saying is Oh, these films 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:04.960 of these people that don't look like me in these 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.560 stories I don't care about. That's why it's not real. 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.880 In your nineteen fifties film is real cinema. And to me, 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.200 it's like, no, that there's a clear just like there's 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.360 a clear issue of why you're saying that that you 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:17.800 don't you don't care about our stories as much, or 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:21.160 you don't care about you know, these these filmmakers. Well, 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.280 I feel like anytime you put real in front of, 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:26.600 like as a descriptor in front of any subject, it's 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.840 usually followed by some bs like real women have curl, 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:34.120 really don't cry. Real blank, you know, like it's it's 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.440 a nothing term and it's something used to be elitist, 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.360 you know, and because usually when the person is using 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.240 real blankety blank blank blank, it usually means the latter. 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.960 So it's like real films. No, a real film is 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.680 any film made, work put into it. Because if if 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.000 you've ever tried to shoot anything, not even necessarily a film, 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.760 you know how much of a labor of love and collaboration. 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.880 It is so too for anyone, you know, to disc 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.400 credit anything because they think it's cool and edgy, because 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.640 it's in black and white, you know what I'm saying, Like, 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.200 like Clerks did it in black and white, and they 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.160 didn't have to be in the fifties. I think also 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:12.440 we're not. I mean when you look at to the 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:17.240 amount of people who are are allowed to have theatrical releases, 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.080 because that's essentially what he was saying is, oh, no, 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:21.200 the film should have to have a theatrical release. Well, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:23.520 think about who gets that type of funding, and think 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.960 about the stories that don't get that funding, you know, 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:28.240 in the studio and the and it's nice that we're 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.080 able so many eyes on Netflix are able to see 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.440 our stories and are able to see the work of 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:36.400 these filmmakers, and it's unfortunate. Of course they want to 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.080 have theatrical releases. It doesn't mean the studio is going 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.000 to help them with that. Yeah. I think what it 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.760 all comes down to is this just that old head mentality, 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.240 which is all funny because as I explained that there's 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:49.760 still going to be some like light irony stuff because 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:51.840 like I feel like a lot of old head mentality 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.280 is this idea that now it's becoming easier to do 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.920 what I worked hard to do. The reason that's irony 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.680 is because especially a lot of creative spaces. Uh. You know. 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.360 The reason you're right, the reason there are a lot 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.960 of these issues are because it's primarily dominated by white men, 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.320 specifically older white men who have been in the game 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.000 for longer than The reason they've been in the game 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.399 for longer is because they've had this ability to like 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.800 whenever I hear like a story of this filmmaker who 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.760 had a camera at like three, and he always got 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.840 it like my my dad would never let me touch 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.560 a camera because we didn't have the money to burn 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:31.680 on me wasting the family camera like I didn't, so 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:33.440 you have. And and then also I was talking about 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:35.520 this a little bit in the E Sports episode, and 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:37.959 I think it's kind of the same, the same kind 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.440 of symptom of it, where it's like there's all these risks, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.159 like for me to pursue my career, it was it 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:48.680 caused like a real huge, big blow up in my 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.560 family for me to you know, my dad comes here 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.920 from Nigeria and he wants me to be something that 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.960 is guaranteed to make money, like a doctor or a lawyer, 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.000 or an accountant or a pharmacist. You know. I I 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.119 used to want to draw and I got talked out 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.640 of going to college for art because he said there's 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:07.520 no money in that. So when you think of that 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:13.040 mentality from parents who and usually families uh from poverty, 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.639 like even you know, even like some white families. And 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.000 then you add like a layer to it where like 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:21.520 say you are a person of color, or if you 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.840 are a female or a woman, uh, you know, sorry, 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:26.720 it's a black thing. You know, you have to move 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.879 it out my vernacular. Uh, if you're a woman and 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.920 you're like expected to like especially like a lot of 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.720 immigrant families are like you when you're a woman, it's 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.080 like you have to make yourself presentable for a husband. 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.040 You need to. You can't intimidate them. So like me 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:44.600 trying to go into this field that is like, yeah, 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.600 I could be in this for thirty years and nothing happens. 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.280 Luckily for me, things have been happening and my dad 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.040 has been able to sigh release and now he's bragging 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.960 as if I did get a doctorates. But but that's 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.280 what you know, people of color and women are usually 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.480 facing where it's like because I don't have anyone to 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.920 point to and hopefully now you know, you know, even 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.119 on my stream, you know, he means it jokingly, but 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.520 hopefully like you know someone he's like, he's like, you know, 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.600 I can show you like, um, this guy Draco, he's 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:15.920 he's Nigerian, he's in the UK, and he's like, I 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:18.280 can show my mom that you have dreads and and 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.800 she'll let me get dreads. Because that's really how it works. 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.000 That's you know, when you can point to a Steven Spielberg, 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:28.200 Peter Jackson, any name, any one of them and be like, look, 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.520 that's who I want to be, and your parents are like, oh, yeah, 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:32.760 you know you are a young white kid and yeah 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.879 you look like that. But if if I'm like, you know, 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.440 I'm like, hey, I want to be like Steven Spielberg 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.200 Peter Jackson, there's all this baggage where my dad's like, well, no, 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.080 you're not like them, you you you gotta go, you 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.480 gotta do the lawyer. And then you add even more 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.440 compound that's from an immigrant perspective, where like some people 0:19:51.480 --> 0:19:52.760 who grow up in the hood and think the only 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:57.520 way out is basketball, sports or or or wrapping those 0:19:57.800 --> 0:19:59.800 those are the only two options. So of course, yeah, 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.000 this is going to be dominated by this. And then 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:04.880 you add in the effects of like, okay, you got 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.399 like college you know, bonds, so you got like Emmerson mafia. 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.399 If you wrote for the what you McCall it the 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:14.919 you know what I'm talking about, But what's the comedy 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:18.360 thing over there that's real big, right for the Lampoon. 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.360 You have all these connections, and you have this expectation 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.040 where you have these these these like Ivy League folks 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:29.399 in these rooms, um show runners who who think that, oh, 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:31.960 I'm good because I went to an Ivy League school 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:33.960 and not necessarily because they're funny, and they may have 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:36.399 a person of color or a woman in front of 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:38.760 them who is genuinely funny, but they're like, well, they 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.640 didn't go to Emerson, they didn't go to an Ivy 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.080 League school, they didn't write for the National Lampoon. And 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.000 that's my like bar for comedy. When it's like, oh no, 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:49.879 it's this whole funny thing like that's you know, and 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:52.240 it and it gets even more insulting. I'm doing a 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:54.720 tangent ran again, but it gets even more insulting when 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.720 you see like how often people pluck from black Twitter 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.200 memes and pluck from the things that we are saying 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.200 and use it in their bs and then uh, and 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:06.840 then still have the goal to not want to hire 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.320 black people for some BS bar that we can't reach 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.680 because even then, ivye have a hard time letting in 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.120 black people. And I and when I say black people, 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:19.160 I mean black people. Africans get in higher on average, 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:21.440 just so they can say they're letting in black people, 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.920 but they're letting in Africans. And there goes a whole 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.680 another baggage that I can but anyway to reel it 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:31.119 all in that is that I don't barely scratch the 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:34.800 surface of the baggage. But that's what is up against 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:39.640 all of people of color and women, and that type 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.040 of stuff isn't carried. And that's generally what people talk about, 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:45.040 just in case someone needs to hear this, When they 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:47.560 mean privilege, that doesn't mean that you didn't have a 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:49.200 hard life. That doesn't mean that you may not have 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:51.159 been poor. But if you were poor and white, you 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:53.320 still have a better chance of getting at Harvard than 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.200 a poor and black person. It's just simple facts, and 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:00.520 there's data to back that up. Affirmative action help no 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.760 one but white women, straight up. And it's and it's 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.400 and that's just why let's just stick to the back. 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.359 But I would say to go to end that point 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:13.720 is essentially that is what studios are more willing to 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:15.560 take a risk on, their less willing to take a 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.720 risk on filmmakers of color, and they're less willing to 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.840 take a risk on stories from people of color. And 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.280 that has been shown throughout these decades and even now, 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:27.200 which is a conversation that we've had in the last 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:30.200 couple of podcasts, we're still dealing with that. So all 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:31.840