Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 1: husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy and best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the bel cast this. I honestly
Speaker 1: thought about opening this episode by singing the song from
Speaker 1: a Walk to Remember, which is another iconic moment in Christianity.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's when Mandy Moore did this movie
Speaker 1: to like, I switched her rep. We will talk about
Speaker 1: because I have a whole I'm like, I think so right,
Speaker 1: because therapy, she's I mean, she's surprisingly versatile. She plays
Speaker 1: Christian angels and Christian devils. So that's range. We have
Speaker 1: to go over the evolution of Mantimore, evolution and devolution. Okay, anyway,
Speaker 1: welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante,
Speaker 1: my Jamie Loftus. I couldn't think of a fun intro.
Speaker 1: I wanted to sing the song from a Walk to Remember?
Speaker 1: Do you remember the words? I don't know the song
Speaker 1: to Remember from a Walker? Because so yeah, my head
Speaker 1: back down and I lift my hand and pray yes.
Speaker 1: And she's like singing this at school and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh my God, this girl would be toast if this
Speaker 1: were real life. And that's the magic of Mandy Moore.
Speaker 1: This is our saved episode. This is not our walk
Speaker 1: to Remember episode. But I'm sure that's that's imminent. It's coming.
Speaker 1: It's just walking. It's walking, not running in it's walking.
Speaker 1: It's slowly mosy ing its way into the Bectel cast catalog.
Speaker 1: But today what is already he is saved. Exclamation point. Yes,
Speaker 1: I love gratuitous punctuation in a movie, only if it's
Speaker 1: an exclamation point. I don't like like this year when
Speaker 1: it was like Emma period, I'm like, let's skip that.
Speaker 1: I loved the movie, but I didn't need the punctuation.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that the title that movie came with
Speaker 1: a period. Yeah, it's it's not it's not alas Emma,
Speaker 1: it's as emma sentence. And I just don't think that's necessary.
Speaker 1: My favorite unnecessary exclamation point is, of course, the one
Speaker 1: included in the title of Mother exclamation point the Darren Aronowsky.
Speaker 1: I like the comma in Titania, but you you just
Speaker 1: need it? Well, sure, that's just that's necessary. Well are
Speaker 1: you leaving out the comma? And I Frankenstein, Jamie, what
Speaker 1: you like? What about that one? That's another iconic movie, Comma,
Speaker 1: you gotta rate the best movie. Punctuation I like, I
Speaker 1: like the exclamation point. I like exclamation point movies. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of other ones. But before we
Speaker 1: get too far down this rabbit holes, introduce our guests.
Speaker 1: Um oh wait, wait, first, Oh my gosh, I'm so
Speaker 1: out of whack exclamation point because I we spent too
Speaker 1: much time talking. There's a lot of Okay, first, we
Speaker 1: have to talk about what this show is and yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so this is the Bechtel Cast. We talk about movies
Speaker 1: using an intersectional feminist lens. We use the Bechtel test
Speaker 1: just as a way to jump start a conversation. And that,
Speaker 1: of course, is a media metric created by queer cartoonist
Speaker 1: Alson Bechtel that requires two people of any marginalized gender
Speaker 1: have to have names, they must speak to each other,
Speaker 1: and it has to be about something other than a man,
Speaker 1: and that conversation has to last at least two lines
Speaker 1: of dialogue by our standards. So that's our rendition of
Speaker 1: the test. There's also there's a question mark. There's sometimes
Speaker 1: movies will be a question like who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?
Speaker 1: And then I think the movie with the most punctuation
Speaker 1: is The Chronicles of Narnia, Colan, the Lion, Comma, The Witch,
Speaker 1: com and Controversial and The Wardrobe. So that's basically what
Speaker 1: we talked about on the show, the punctuation in titles
Speaker 1: of movies. It's a movie grammar podcast. Okay, Well that
Speaker 1: that gives us something to think about, you know, the punctuation.
Speaker 1: It does make you think, oh brother, where art thou?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh brother, Comma, where art thou? Question? Airplane?
Speaker 1: Exclamation point? Exclamation point. This is just the rest of
Speaker 1: the episode. Sorry, Sorry, Ellie and lisare to jump in
Speaker 1: with your favorite movie. Sorry. I was like, I was like,
Speaker 1: do I have to wait? I was It's hard. It
Speaker 1: was for me to not sing the song from what
Speaker 1: I was waiting for them to introduce me. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be a good podcast guest liked it. Ellie. We'll do
Speaker 1: a TikTok later. It'll be fine. We'll do a full
Speaker 1: cover and you it'll be great because you're like a
Speaker 1: legit singer. You are a trained Jamie kind of bitchy
Speaker 1: to lead the podcast, with but good. We both thought yea,
Speaker 1: honestly you your rendition was gorgeous, beautiful. I thought you
Speaker 1: were a trained singer, so absolutely, you know I'm not
Speaker 1: a training ball. I mean, as Caitlin said, for some reason,
Speaker 1: I'm not a trained singer. But okay, well you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm the Mandy Moore of this episode. I'm the bitchy,
Speaker 1: mean girl. Okay, you're being a real Hilary Faye so
Speaker 1: rude full of christ love. Do you sing on Do
Speaker 1: you sing on TikTok? Ellie? Yes? I do? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd read that. Yeah, if you want to check out
Speaker 1: my TikTok, I actually do like vocal lessons on my TikTok,
Speaker 1: So yeah, teach people how to riff. So if you
Speaker 1: want to learn how to riff, I love it, just
Speaker 1: check it out. Yeah hell yeah, I've learned a lot
Speaker 1: from your Instagram as well, So yes, I put I
Speaker 1: basically just take my TikTok and put it on Instagram.
Speaker 1: But yes, okay, well let me let us introduce you properly.
Speaker 1: So our guests today are co hosts of Sweet Bitter,
Speaker 1: a new podcast about Sappho, who is the first known
Speaker 1: woman in European literary tradition and also where the word
Speaker 1: lesbian comes from. It's Ellie Bridgida and Lisa Charlotte. Hello, Lli,
Speaker 1: we're officially here. Everything I said before it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having us, of course, And Ellie,
Speaker 1: welcome back. You were one of two guests on our
Speaker 1: episode about debs more punctuation, so so much punctuation. That's yeah,
Speaker 1: that's like a heavy four four periods after every letter.
Speaker 1: It is a joy to be back. Oh wait, we're back.
Speaker 1: Exclamation point a dinosaur story? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, because
Speaker 1: that's one too. Anyway. Uh, the informant you're in cycling
Speaker 1: encyclopedic knowledge of punctuation movies is so impressive. I have
Speaker 1: a listical in front of me. I thought, this is
Speaker 1: from your head. Yeah. I was like, there's to say
Speaker 1: another bitchy comment. There's no way Jamie's just pulling these,
Speaker 1: just being a mega bitch. I uh, mastering Commander, what
Speaker 1: if I mean that implies that I've seen all these movies.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I gun to my head, could not tell
Speaker 1: you who's in? Is Matt Damon the informant? I believe
Speaker 1: so question. I have no idea, Birds of Prey, Colon
Speaker 1: and a fantabulous emancipation of one Harleyan there. It's surprising
Speaker 1: there's only one piece of punctuation in that very long title.
Speaker 1: It's so long, so many words. No exclamation. Isn't when
Speaker 1: Harry met Sally? That's like dot dot dot right? Really
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm pretty sure is that mean? Okay,
Speaker 1: let's fact check? Yes, yes, really, yeah, when Harry met
Speaker 1: Sally ellipses No kidding. I never knew that. It's because
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be like that. Yeah, unnecessary, that don't need it?
Speaker 1: But what can you do? And Saved you need it?
Speaker 1: Saved it's necessary. So let's talk about Saved. Um, what
Speaker 1: is your relationship your history with the movie? Elie? Why
Speaker 1: don't we start with you? So this is I've seen
Speaker 1: this movie a very very long time ago, and I
Speaker 1: barely remembered it, to be honest, I was like, I
Speaker 1: know it's hilarious, but I can't really remember it. And
Speaker 1: then Lisa and I did a rewatch where we watched
Speaker 1: it and basically, like live, we're live texting each other,
Speaker 1: and as an adult watching this film, I saw so
Speaker 1: much more than I ever remembered, so it was great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I could appreciate the satire a bit more. I think,
Speaker 1: of course, what about you, Lisa. Um. I think this
Speaker 1: came out in my last year of high school and
Speaker 1: I loved it. My my dad used to rent videos
Speaker 1: and we used to get like the preview movies, you know,
Speaker 1: ahead of time on like VHS. So cool. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: and be of everybody. Um and so I was a
Speaker 1: massive fan. I really loved jenem Alone from Life as
Speaker 1: a House of All Things. I don't know why I
Speaker 1: love that movie as a teenager, but I really did.
Speaker 1: And I was into Hayden Christensen and I have to
Speaker 1: live with that, you know, we were all there. There
Speaker 1: was a time. Jennem Alone has very like chris In
Speaker 1: Stewart before Christin Stewart was Christin Stewart energy for me?
Speaker 1: How is she not gay? I just I keep looking
Speaker 1: it up to see if she's gay, because it feels
Speaker 1: like she's gay. Is she not? No, she's not gay.
Speaker 1: She's had a lot of lesbian love scenes. Apparently she's
Speaker 1: really gay. Energy. I keep I keep checking. Wait, I'm
Speaker 1: looking it up because I had to. It says she's
Speaker 1: bisexual online. Oh yes, BiCon and she also was raised
Speaker 1: by two moms. Amazing, So that's why you just feel
Speaker 1: it coming off of her. Absolutely, she was raised by
Speaker 1: two moms and then she was also what is that term,
Speaker 1: m she she was also emancipated, emancipated from her two moms. Oh,
Speaker 1: I didn't know any of this backstory her her life.
Speaker 1: I had never looked up general Alon's life story before
Speaker 1: researching for this episode, if you can believe it, And
Speaker 1: she's had a very interesting life. She's like she's been
Speaker 1: through a lot and she's out on the other side
Speaker 1: starring in indie movies. I think good for her. Caitlin,
Speaker 1: what's your history was saved? My history was saved? Is
Speaker 1: I'd seen it? I think twice before this, once in college,
Speaker 1: must have been not long after it came out. I
Speaker 1: think I was like a freshman or sophomore, So I
Speaker 1: think I saw it around the time it came out,
Speaker 1: and then I think I just caught it again at
Speaker 1: some point a few years later. I enjoyed rewatching it.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about it, and uh, yeah, Jamie,
Speaker 1: what's your relationship with it? I think, like Elliot, I
Speaker 1: hadn't seen it in a really long time, but I
Speaker 1: I've saw it a couple of times in like middle
Speaker 1: school and high school, at like sleepovers and with friends
Speaker 1: and stuff. Um, I feel like it was a good
Speaker 1: sleepover movie. And I really liked Mandy Moore, so I
Speaker 1: would see her entire uvra, whether it's music, whether it's movies.
Speaker 1: I was engaging with the whole Mandy Moore cannon at
Speaker 1: this time, so I definitely thought it. I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I think that this was for I didn't grow up
Speaker 1: with Home Alone. I don't even know why, but I
Speaker 1: remember that this was the first movie I saw Macaulay
Speaker 1: Culkin and everyone was like, oh my god, Kevin, and
Speaker 1: I was like, who's Kevin? And then my friends laughed
Speaker 1: as we all laugh now bringing back back memory. So
Speaker 1: here my friends are again, a million years later, still laughing. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I hadn't seen it in at least
Speaker 1: ten years. I feel like a lot of it holds up.
Speaker 1: I think that what's most interesting for me is what
Speaker 1: this filmmaker has done since, because I feel like his
Speaker 1: work has since gotten quite bad. Where this movie, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's parts of it that are very steeped in their time,
Speaker 1: but I I generally liked it. Well, should I recap
Speaker 1: it and then we'll go from there. Yeah? Do it? Wait?
Speaker 1: Did you who found the fun nepotism in this movie?
Speaker 1: I did? Yes. Susan Surrandon's daughter is Eva A Moor
Speaker 1: and that is who plays Cassandra Edelstein. Wow. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: then like once you know it and you see her again,
Speaker 1: like I see it. That is she looks like Susan
Speaker 1: Surandon very much, absolutely floored. And Jenna Malone played I
Speaker 1: think Susan Surrandon's stepdaughter and step mom. Oh I saw
Speaker 1: step mom a lot because my crush was in it.
Speaker 1: Mandy Moore again anymore, Many Moore was one of my crushes.
Speaker 1: This was Liam Aiken. I don't even know who that
Speaker 1: is who. He played the boy in a series of
Speaker 1: Unfortunate events deep cut problem um. Anyways, there's all sorts
Speaker 1: of weird connection. I thought that that was fun nepotism,
Speaker 1: and she was good, so I didn't even care. She's
Speaker 1: one of the best parts of the whole movie. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: she's incredible. Oh right, So the story of Staved, we
Speaker 1: meet Mary. That's Gennle Malone. She comes from a devout,
Speaker 1: born again Christian family. Her mother is Lillian played by
Speaker 1: Mary Louise Parker, who I think, isn't that another crush
Speaker 1: of yours? Jamie, isn't she a crush of everybody's? Yes,
Speaker 1: she's so thirsty in this movie. She is really This
Speaker 1: is like an interesting moment for Mary Louise Parker where
Speaker 1: she I just want all of her tank tops and
Speaker 1: I want to give her a little kiss. She's also
Speaker 1: coloring her head the whole film. Yes, it's very funny,
Speaker 1: so many different and I feel like my mom had
Speaker 1: each and every one of those hairstyles at one point.
Speaker 1: Mine is the blonde, but like all the different like
Speaker 1: layering's like moms were layering into tell you for they
Speaker 1: couldn't be stopped. It's true. Okay. So Mary is about
Speaker 1: to be a senior at a Christian high school. Everything
Speaker 1: seems great for Mary until her Christian boyfriend Dean tells
Speaker 1: her that he thinks that he is gay, and she
Speaker 1: like reacts. She bumps her head, and then she sees
Speaker 1: a vision of Jesus telling her that she needs to
Speaker 1: save Dean, which falls into something we talked about yesterday Caitlin,
Speaker 1: which was the coming of age movie about a young
Speaker 1: woman must always feature her underwater, having some sort of
Speaker 1: realization about the fragility of her own life, specifically in
Speaker 1: a swimming pool. Yes, in a swimming pool, and this
Speaker 1: one cuts right to the Jays. I'm like, okay, this
Speaker 1: is a coming of age movie confirmed from the first scene.
Speaker 1: So as she's like underwater, she sees this vision of
Speaker 1: Jesus and she thinks the way that she's going to
Speaker 1: be able to save Dean is to have hetero sex
Speaker 1: with him, which they do and she thinks it worked,
Speaker 1: and obviously it doesn't, uh, And then she goes about
Speaker 1: her life as if everything is fine. She heads to
Speaker 1: school with her friends, the fellow you know her her
Speaker 1: fellow Christian Jewels, who are Hillary Faye which is Mandy
Speaker 1: Moore and Veronica played by Elizabeth Tye. And then we
Speaker 1: also meet Hillary Faye's brother Roland and that's McAuley culkin.
Speaker 1: But Dean, her boyfriend, doesn't join them at school because
Speaker 1: his parents found out found like a gay porn mag
Speaker 1: in his room and he gets sent to Mercy House,
Speaker 1: which is basically like a like gay conversion therapy place.
Speaker 1: Not always works so well. I know. Also Mercy House,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's like a catch all. They're basically like,
Speaker 1: if your kid is doing anything bad, to send them
Speaker 1: to mercy House. Yeah, they mentioned like drugs, alcohol, use
Speaker 1: teen pregnancy stuff, but yeah, I think the one they
Speaker 1: use is de gayification. Yes, it always works, especially when
Speaker 1: you put gay people together to make them not get
Speaker 1: in the same bedroom and have them bunk together. It
Speaker 1: always works, turns them immediately straight. Jk um. So Mary
Speaker 1: is disappointed by this. They get to school and we
Speaker 1: also meet Castandra Edelstein, and she is the only Jewish
Speaker 1: student at this Christian school. She smokes, she's punk rock,
Speaker 1: she doesn't follow the rules, she misbehaves, she's not like
Speaker 1: the other girl. She's not like the Christians because she's
Speaker 1: not a Christian because she's Jewish. Therefore, like it's like
Speaker 1: it's honestly, so many of them, it's all satire, but
Speaker 1: so many of the things in this this movie you
Speaker 1: just want to like hit your head. Yeah, it's like,
Speaker 1: oh God, she's Jewish, therefore she smokes, Therefore she's therefore
Speaker 1: a cigarette. Yeah, you're just like right. There's also this
Speaker 1: new kid at school, Patrick played by Patrick Fuget, and
Speaker 1: he is the son of the new principal pastor skip
Speaker 1: and Mary is like, oh, who's that Patrick Fuguet. Did
Speaker 1: anyone in the middle of the movie be like, oh,
Speaker 1: almost famous. Yes, it took just like wait, who hoo
Speaker 1: hoo hoo who it's literally the same haircut. I was like,
Speaker 1: there was no excuse for me not figuring that out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had the same experience. So but Mary takes an
Speaker 1: interest in him, and he takes an interest in Mary. Um,
Speaker 1: I know. And then one day Mary finds out that
Speaker 1: she is gregnant with a little Greg with a little Greg.
Speaker 1: Oh no stand out line. Please let it be cancer.
Speaker 1: How horrible. She would rather have cancer than be pregnant
Speaker 1: because of Christianity, because Christianity her. That was a very
Speaker 1: funny moment because she's watching this lifetime movie about this
Speaker 1: woman who thinks she's pregnant, but it turns out she
Speaker 1: has cancer and then um, and then Mary is just like,
Speaker 1: please let it be cancer, Please let it be cancer. Yes.
Speaker 1: Valerie Bertonelli in that movie, right, we see Valerie Burtonelli
Speaker 1: many times recurring character. She's a looming presence. Yes. Um okay. So,
Speaker 1: so Mary has found out that she is gregnant with
Speaker 1: a Greg and around this time Hillary Faye has outed
Speaker 1: Dean to the school under the pretense of like, well,
Speaker 1: we have to pray for him kind of thing, and
Speaker 1: all of this causes Mary to start to question her faith. Um.
Speaker 1: It's also around this time that Patrick asks Mary out
Speaker 1: on a date. She declines, and then Cassandra and Roland
Speaker 1: start dating. And then Cassandra catches on to Mary being pregnant,
Speaker 1: and she's like, you know what, I'm going to help you.
Speaker 1: She takes her shopping for clothes that will help her
Speaker 1: conceal her gregnancy and makes Hillary Faye pay for it. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's great, I do love how like it turns everything
Speaker 1: on its head of okay, like the Hillary Faye, this
Speaker 1: perfect Christian is actually a really mean person who outs people,
Speaker 1: who does all these things. And the one person at
Speaker 1: school who's supposed to be the bad girl is the
Speaker 1: one who's helping. Yeah, yeah, who's helping this girl who
Speaker 1: needs help? Like she's actually a good person. Yes, iconic,
Speaker 1: I love Cassandra. Yeah, so they become friends along in
Speaker 1: Roland there, it's like a nice little trio. And meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Hillary Faye is horrified by all of this. She doesn't
Speaker 1: know that Mary is gregnant yet, but she's still trying
Speaker 1: to perform exorcisms on her and constantly trying to save
Speaker 1: her and save Cassandra. So Cassandra, annoyed by this, spreads
Speaker 1: this old, unflattering photo of Hillary Faye around the school,
Speaker 1: which she is mortified by. So Hillary Faye, to retaliate,
Speaker 1: vandalizes the school and frames it on Cassandra and Roland
Speaker 1: and Mary by planting the spray paint cans in their lockers.
Speaker 1: And then when Mary's locker gets searched, they also find
Speaker 1: the ultrasound of her baby Greg and then everyone, so
Speaker 1: everyone finds out that she's pregnant so to list. So
Speaker 1: then Cassandra and I think also Mary gets expelled or
Speaker 1: maybe just Cassandra gets expelled, but they're all they're all
Speaker 1: punished and they're not allowed to go to prom. But
Speaker 1: Mary is like kicked out of the group. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: then like Pastor Skip like wants her to go to
Speaker 1: Mercy House. And then like Mary Louise Parker's like having
Speaker 1: a whole thing where she's like should I send her?
Speaker 1: Should I not? That ultimatum? How dare you right? Well?
Speaker 1: Also Pastor Skip and Mary Louise Parker, I'm like I
Speaker 1: don't know her actual name. I think her name is Lillian.
Speaker 1: Lillian we're dating before that, right, and even though Pastor
Speaker 1: Skip has a wife, right right, talk about a couple,
Speaker 1: I couldn't be rooting for less. Yes, I'm rooting for
Speaker 1: Lillian like to be her own independent woman. I want
Speaker 1: how to be laid is what I want. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: not by Pastor Skip. I want her to be like
Speaker 1: a not shitty pain. Aren't There's there's a lot of
Speaker 1: she needs some support. Yeah, I'm like you. She just
Speaker 1: fully was like, oh my daughter is gregnant. Didn't notice? Notice?
Speaker 1: Better sent her away. I'm like, excellent parent. So our
Speaker 1: friends are not allowed to go to prom, but they
Speaker 1: decided to go anyway because they figure out that it
Speaker 1: was Hilary Faye who bought the spray paint. So Cassandra
Speaker 1: and Roland as a couple, and then Mary and her
Speaker 1: day Patrick all go to prom, as do some kids
Speaker 1: from Mercy House, including Dean. So at prom, Pastor Skip
Speaker 1: is like, you, you can't be here. God is judging you.
Speaker 1: He doesn't like what you're doing with your lives. And
Speaker 1: then Mary and Patrick are like Pastor Skip, you need
Speaker 1: to loosen up, dude, Like your standards are too high.
Speaker 1: God made us all different and that's okay. Meanwhile, and
Speaker 1: this is the most fun part of the movie if
Speaker 1: you ask me, Hilary Faye is freaking out, and then
Speaker 1: she drives her van into the big like Jesus statue
Speaker 1: thing outside the school. Then Mary starts to go into
Speaker 1: labor cut to the hospital she's given birth, and then
Speaker 1: in her voice over at the end, she's like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I probably misinterpreted God's message to me about saving Dean,
Speaker 1: but I do think there is a God or something
Speaker 1: out there or something inside. I can feel it, and
Speaker 1: that is the story beautiful. So let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break and then come right back to discuss where to
Speaker 1: begin with Saved. There's so much interesting steph in here.
Speaker 1: I feel like there I was looking in too, like
Speaker 1: just religious satire in general, because I feel like there's
Speaker 1: definitely not a lot of like teen like religious satire
Speaker 1: directed at teenagers specifically, um and then it kind of
Speaker 1: happens more on TV than in movies. And then I
Speaker 1: went to the religious satire Wikipedia page and also found
Speaker 1: that this is kind of neither here nor there, except
Speaker 1: to mention that the religious satire category is just overwhelmed
Speaker 1: with white guys just so, like half of the entries
Speaker 1: are like and then Trey Parker and Matt Stone did this,
Speaker 1: and everyone look like what like, so, um, you know,
Speaker 1: there's definitely room for other people in this in the
Speaker 1: religious satire genres. If you're listening and you're not a
Speaker 1: white guy, you know, think about it. Not surprising that
Speaker 1: that's the case on the Wikipedia page, especially because, like
Speaker 1: watching this movie, one of the biggest things was there
Speaker 1: for sure could be more diversity. It's an entirely white
Speaker 1: cast obviously, like some of the students in the background
Speaker 1: parts are people of color, but they don't have names. Well,
Speaker 1: and there's um Veronica, like Veronica, and there's Veronica, yes,
Speaker 1: and she almost nothing about I mean, unfortunately, I feel
Speaker 1: like we know a little bit more about her than
Speaker 1: we would about like some non white characters, which is
Speaker 1: set the bar is on the floor, especially if we're
Speaker 1: talking about two thousand four, because we know a little
Speaker 1: bit about her background. But like she you could cut
Speaker 1: her out of the script in a second and nothing,
Speaker 1: but nothing would change and everything we know about her
Speaker 1: you could say in a sentence, which the movie also
Speaker 1: says in a sentence it's like she was adopted from
Speaker 1: Vietnam by parents who were there doing missionary work. The
Speaker 1: like that's it, that's it, that's it. Yeah, Well that
Speaker 1: kind of relates to another sort of I guess preliminary
Speaker 1: note about this movie, which is it is unlike a
Speaker 1: lot of teen movies which are not religious satires. There's
Speaker 1: an interesting intersection here with it being a teen comedy
Speaker 1: slash like religious satire, which I enjoyed that about the movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's also it does fall into a lot of
Speaker 1: other kind of teen movie tropes. Still. For example, you've
Speaker 1: got the mean girl who's mean, You've got a hetero
Speaker 1: teen romance being a major subplot. You've got the movie
Speaker 1: ending in prom and Prom being like where the climactic
Speaker 1: sequence takes place. You've got well, at the point where
Speaker 1: once they were at prom, I'm like, well, if we're
Speaker 1: doing this trope, she better she might as well have
Speaker 1: the baby at prom. And then thankfully she goes into
Speaker 1: labor at prom, because I'm like, if you're really going
Speaker 1: to bring a very pregnant teen the prom, she better
Speaker 1: go into labor. Like we've got why subvert that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: the only thing that's missing is like everyone bands together
Speaker 1: and votes her prom queen. But that's the only thing,
Speaker 1: that's the only thing that's right. Justice Mary. Yeah, why
Speaker 1: didn't she get pro queen. Also, in addition to it
Speaker 1: being a very white cast, it's also another thing that
Speaker 1: we see in a lot of teen movies is they're
Speaker 1: all middle to upper middle class. Yeah, well they're at
Speaker 1: like a private school to write like, yeah, I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: if it's a it's a religious school, then yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it is fully troped out with a lot of that,
Speaker 1: like even that, and even it's weird because there are
Speaker 1: like some subversions inside of this movie, but there's like
Speaker 1: subversions that still exist inside of the troupe, like it
Speaker 1: appeares to the trope. But it also for example, there's
Speaker 1: a clothes trying on montage, but it's not so that
Speaker 1: the teen girl can look really cute or like find
Speaker 1: the cutest prom dress. It's so she can find clothes
Speaker 1: that we feel, yeah, I like or the I mean
Speaker 1: this was I mean, I'm curious as to what everybody thinks.
Speaker 1: This was like a romance subplot that I didn't think
Speaker 1: overwhelmed everything else. And I didn't hate it. I didn't
Speaker 1: like dislike Patrick Wheeler on like Patrick's skateboard or what
Speaker 1: I was, like Patrick's skateboard, Um, Like I thought Patrick's
Speaker 1: skateboard was at least like a pretty respectful sweetheart towards
Speaker 1: Jenna Malone. And that's you know, in a two thousand
Speaker 1: and fourteen movie, you never know how the insert head
Speaker 1: or real love interest is going to behave, And I
Speaker 1: was like, well, Patrick is at least a sweetheart, and
Speaker 1: he's like, he is unproblematic. King. My favorite is when
Speaker 1: he um, he falls over and his friend handing the
Speaker 1: skateboard and he's like, he's like he's still really cool
Speaker 1: about it, yeah, and like shout out to his friend
Speaker 1: for helping in the friend is a sweetie exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's never really he's never displaying any like of that
Speaker 1: kind of machiesemo toxic masculinity that a lot of teen
Speaker 1: boys are like have on constant display. And even I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed that he like challenges his dad at the end,
Speaker 1: and it's constantly just kind of challenging the institution of
Speaker 1: Christianity and and like still identifying as Christian, but like,
Speaker 1: but he doesn't judge, He doesn't like judge Mary for
Speaker 1: her pregnancy when she tells him to like back off
Speaker 1: and she's not interested, he does back off, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: He respects her boundaries, He is nice to her, he
Speaker 1: treats her well, which all of these things should just
Speaker 1: be standard behavior. But considering that, like so many teen
Speaker 1: movies show teen boys being so horrendously cruel and awful
Speaker 1: to teen girls, like I always think of, I think
Speaker 1: my like go to example for like how horrible a
Speaker 1: boy can be to a girl in a teen movie
Speaker 1: is Heath Ledger to Julia Stiles in Ten Things I
Speaker 1: Hate About You, which is like liket that, But I did.
Speaker 1: I generally found Patrick to be a nice boy who
Speaker 1: and I for that reason I didn't mind that love
Speaker 1: story because he treats her well. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: do think you could probably take him out of the baby.
Speaker 1: But I also, like it did seem like Mary wanted
Speaker 1: to be with someone who she was genuinely into, and
Speaker 1: like I was sweet and respectful to her. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: all right, you know what, Patrick, sweetie, date Patrick. He's
Speaker 1: gonna raise He's gonna help you raise your child. They're
Speaker 1: gonna be like this cute little like because Dean also,
Speaker 1: like after was like I want to be in the
Speaker 1: in the kid's life, and it's like the four of
Speaker 1: them is this cute little like, yeah, I have hope
Speaker 1: for the future of like that four. So I want
Speaker 1: to co parenting. That baby has four parents because Dean's
Speaker 1: boyfriend also is like, I'm here to He's in the
Speaker 1: picture at the end. He like, if you're posing for
Speaker 1: the picture, you're one of the parents that parenting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that kid has five parents. Um, it's going to be
Speaker 1: just fine. Little greg who is um girl? I think
Speaker 1: a girl? Yeah, Gregina, but exactly um so, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: they at very least even the stuff that fell into
Speaker 1: tropes wasn't so outrageously like the worst of the trope
Speaker 1: the same kind of the same. I mean, Hillary Fay,
Speaker 1: there's a lot there in terms of her arc. I
Speaker 1: did at least appreciate that by the end she got
Speaker 1: some kind of come upance and it was clear that
Speaker 1: she was not the world's worst person in a way
Speaker 1: that sometimes I mean, if we're talking just in strictly category,
Speaker 1: Mandy Moore villains at the end of Princess Diaries, gonna
Speaker 1: you know, who knows she's burning in hell? Maybe like
Speaker 1: we don't really know she doesn't necessarily alert, like she
Speaker 1: doesn't get any sort of redemption of like, oh well,
Speaker 1: this is where she was coming from, Like and Hillary Faye.
Speaker 1: For all the problematic parts of her story that we'll
Speaker 1: get to at least at the end, I feel like
Speaker 1: she has like a humbling moment. She has to admit
Speaker 1: that she's wrong, and she like accepts the help um
Speaker 1: people who don't need to be nice to her but
Speaker 1: are aka her brethren. Condra. Yeah, I mean I feel
Speaker 1: like she also has the punishment of that hair. So
Speaker 1: the hair is so bad. Most of my comments to
Speaker 1: Ali throughout the which is like, I just can't It's
Speaker 1: just is it a wig? It has to be. I
Speaker 1: cannot imagine Mandy Moore having that hair in real life.
Speaker 1: It was two thousand and four. She might have it, couldn't.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm on the fence she many more.
Speaker 1: I just I don't. I'm first of all, I've had
Speaker 1: a crush seven. So there's that. I used to have
Speaker 1: a poster of her. I think I've said this to
Speaker 1: Eu Caitland before. I had used to have a poster
Speaker 1: of Mandy Moore on my wall when I was like
Speaker 1: in elementary school, that I thought was like looking at
Speaker 1: me while I was asleep. Oh my gosh, So Mandy
Speaker 1: Moore was your guardian angel. Well, I got scared of
Speaker 1: it and I took it down, or or the ghost
Speaker 1: hunting her house either or she was looking at me
Speaker 1: too hard and I had to take it down. But
Speaker 1: it was a big fan. Did I tell you that
Speaker 1: I met her and she did a show at NERD
Speaker 1: Molt Like, yeah, she was really nice and she did
Speaker 1: it confirmed she's amazing. Oh my god, she seems amazing.
Speaker 1: She I like, I mean, and and this is like
Speaker 1: a very interesting time in her career where she was
Speaker 1: singing like bubble gum pop. She was like in the
Speaker 1: Britney Spears is an available position kind of pop wise,
Speaker 1: but then she started. Then she did a Walk to
Speaker 1: Remember iconic Christian movie Canon where she played a character
Speaker 1: named Jamie. And then she did Princess Diaries where she
Speaker 1: established that she knows how the mata rozzo and that
Speaker 1: she's a bully, and then she pays up on that
Speaker 1: again and saved. She plays a bully and a Christian
Speaker 1: really well. And I feel like I wonder if the
Speaker 1: director Brian Danilely was like I've seen her as a Christian.
Speaker 1: I've seen her as a bully. What if let's put
Speaker 1: them together, sim bully mash up. We know she can
Speaker 1: do both. Yes, she's so versatile. So it was right
Speaker 1: after Princess Diaries that she did Saved. In the timeline,
Speaker 1: it was a couple of years after because Princess Diris
Speaker 1: is OH one, this is OH four. I don't know
Speaker 1: what she was doing in between them. Possibly more incredible
Speaker 1: pop music. I'm sure more pop mus to get it,
Speaker 1: because her name is Mandy Moore. Yes, she I don't
Speaker 1: know what she was doing. Oh, she was in a movie.
Speaker 1: Oh I did see this movie. She was in two
Speaker 1: movies that I saw. Yikes. Uh. So she did Princess Diaries,
Speaker 1: then to Remember So sorry, she did Bully, then Christian.
Speaker 1: Then she did something called How to Deal, which I
Speaker 1: saw but I don't remember what it was, and then
Speaker 1: Chasing Liberty which she played the first Daughter, unlike First Daughter,
Speaker 1: which came out the same year, and that was Katie Holmes.
Speaker 1: And then she did Saved. A wild couple of years
Speaker 1: for Mandy and her part was was supposed to originally
Speaker 1: be played by Anne Hathaway. Saved. It's just like The
Speaker 1: Princess Diaries. Anne Hathaway was going to be Hilary Fay. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: until she dropped out to do possibly Ellen Chant that.
Speaker 1: I couldn't figure out what she dropped out to do. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that that happened. Sorry, Anne, but me,
Speaker 1: Andy's just perfect in this It's perfect, and Anne has
Speaker 1: ranged as well. But I'm happy that Mandy Moore is
Speaker 1: in that disrespect to Anne, but Mandy, Yeah, we wouldn't
Speaker 1: have the Mandy Moore. God only knows. Which is just perfect? Right?
Speaker 1: Is that the ending credits? It's the beginning then it's like,
Speaker 1: this is a Mandy Moore film. We just want to
Speaker 1: let you know. When we were watching it, I was like,
Speaker 1: because it's just her voice and you don't see anyone.
Speaker 1: I was and I literally was like voice of an angel.
Speaker 1: That's many Moore. I knew it was her. She was
Speaker 1: well in the original posters for this movie. She is
Speaker 1: like in the center, even though that doesn't even make
Speaker 1: sense for the movie, like it was built like Mandy.
Speaker 1: I probably because she was still a pop star and
Speaker 1: she was the most famous person at that point. She's
Speaker 1: always in the center of every movie. She's in yeah, right,
Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, but speaking to the Hillary fake character,
Speaker 1: that does bring me to a plot point that I
Speaker 1: forgot about ages very poorly and has a very strange
Speaker 1: place in the Brian Daniele film career Cannon, which is
Speaker 1: the extremely played for laughs fat phobic plot points slash prank.
Speaker 1: This sucks. So this comes up, and again it's so
Speaker 1: frustrating because it could so easily have been anything else
Speaker 1: or not even happened, and the movie would be no different.
Speaker 1: But they essentially have this plot point where Roland mcaulay
Speaker 1: culkins character tells Cassandra and Mary, oh well, she as
Speaker 1: a like as a young teen, was fat and she
Speaker 1: was sent to fat camp and she doesn't want anybody
Speaker 1: to know that. They do a big joke about it,
Speaker 1: and then they prank her. Our heroes pull a very
Speaker 1: fat phobic prank, and we're supposed to be like, woohoo, right,
Speaker 1: this across the board doesn't work, superdated and embarrassing to
Speaker 1: watch now. It also plays out in Brian Danely's film Cannon,
Speaker 1: because he goes on to direct a bunch of episodes
Speaker 1: of Insatiable that, like famously fat phobic um Netflix series
Speaker 1: starring Debbie Ryan. So this is like a he has
Speaker 1: a very checkered film. Like a lot of the projects
Speaker 1: he's worked on in various ways, um usually as a director,
Speaker 1: sometimes as a producer are problematique. They're just that whole
Speaker 1: part just like made me feel so itchy. It's gross.
Speaker 1: It's gross. Yeah, it's just really really bad, and I
Speaker 1: agree ages horribly truly. It reminds me a lot of
Speaker 1: I think the closest like pop culture touch point to
Speaker 1: that is like a joke from Friends that went the
Speaker 1: entire series that was the exact same joke about Courtney
Speaker 1: Cox about Monica, and it's the exact same joke and
Speaker 1: it played out the exact same way every time that like, oh,
Speaker 1: this like extremely skinny woman used to not be how embarrassing,
Speaker 1: let's laugh at her, and with the assumption that the
Speaker 1: audience is laughing with us because we're monsters and it's
Speaker 1: two thousand four. Yeah. So yeah. Also some of their
Speaker 1: language choices as well. Yeah I'm not I don't remember
Speaker 1: where it was, but they said the R word a
Speaker 1: couple of times in the first scene, and then I
Speaker 1: think at least once later on as well. There's definitely
Speaker 1: some some language that gets used. It's obviously there's like
Speaker 1: homophobic slayers as well, Like there's a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: And this is not in defense of the language, but
Speaker 1: I think that that will get used in this movie
Speaker 1: movie to kind of let you let the audience know
Speaker 1: which characters we're supposed to be rooting for and not,
Speaker 1: because it's usually Hilary Faye and her posse who is
Speaker 1: saying a lot of problematic stuff, whether it's homophobic, whether
Speaker 1: it's ablest, and that's to let the audience know, oh,
Speaker 1: we don't like her, she's mean, she's bad, which again
Speaker 1: makes the fat phobic plot point. So yeah, frustrating because
Speaker 1: the heroes do it and we're supposed to be like ya,
Speaker 1: like Jena Malone and Susan Sarandon's daughter, like yeah, two
Speaker 1: thousand four. And I do want to talk about the
Speaker 1: disability aspect of the film because we have Roland who
Speaker 1: is a disabled character. He uses a wheelchair, so we
Speaker 1: have visibility of disability, but as we've seen in a
Speaker 1: lot of media throughout the years, characters played by a
Speaker 1: non disabled actor. And I found a few quotes from
Speaker 1: a review of the film from Disability Studies Quarterly by
Speaker 1: Beth Holler that focuses on disability representation in this movie.
Speaker 1: Let's see so here we go quote. This independent film
Speaker 1: from two thousand four does a good job of upending
Speaker 1: the usual disability stereotypes in film. Although it uses a
Speaker 1: non disabled actor for the role of wheelchair user Roland
Speaker 1: Macaulay Culkin in a well acted performance, it shows the
Speaker 1: character as an average teenager. Another quote. Roland is established
Speaker 1: early as a sarcastic cynic, but not in the vein
Speaker 1: of a bitter disabled person, because he doesn't buy into
Speaker 1: the extreme version of Christianity practiced by his sister and
Speaker 1: others at the high school. So part of this review
Speaker 1: is um commending the film for making Rowland and average
Speaker 1: teenager who just happens to be in a wheelchair, not
Speaker 1: just an average teenager, not like the other boy. Also
Speaker 1: like a cool teenager. I would say, like, he's actually
Speaker 1: pretty awesome. Yeah, that was my other my two crushes
Speaker 1: in this movie Mandy Moore because of course legally had to.
Speaker 1: But then the like Roland's character because he's a cool
Speaker 1: bad boy. He's like, I don't know, I feel like
Speaker 1: in two thousand four year like atheism, what like sexy Yeah,
Speaker 1: I also don't like going to youth group. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then just a couple more quotes from this review. Um,
Speaker 1: the Roland Cassandra relationship is a step forward in disability imagery.
Speaker 1: He is never pathetic or pitiful, and although she is
Speaker 1: a rebel, Cassandra makes it clear she is not with
Speaker 1: him as a form of rebellion. When Mary asks her
Speaker 1: if it bothers her that Roland can't walk, Cassandra explains,
Speaker 1: he gets me, and I get him. The Roland Cassandra
Speaker 1: relationship shows a deep connection that is emotional and physical,
Speaker 1: which is rarely seen with disabled characters in film and television.
Speaker 1: McAuley Culkin plays Roland well, handling the wheelchair with finesse
Speaker 1: and giving the character a growing sense of self as
Speaker 1: he settles into a romantic relationship and a supportive friend relationship. Unquote. So, Um,
Speaker 1: this review was written in two thousand four, so it
Speaker 1: is the two thousand five I think, so it's at
Speaker 1: least fifteen years old. Um, I'd be interested to see
Speaker 1: a more contemporary perspective on this film. So, for any
Speaker 1: of our listeners who use a wheelchair, how do you
Speaker 1: feel the representation of um, this physical disability was in
Speaker 1: this film and be interested to know. But as far
Speaker 1: as I could tell, like the this review said, I
Speaker 1: appreciated that Roland is like he's given a romantic storyline,
Speaker 1: the best one, the best one, yes, so the one
Speaker 1: I'm like rooting for the most. This is again something
Speaker 1: that you rarely see in popular media. So it's his
Speaker 1: story isn't about being in a wheelchair like he is
Speaker 1: in one exactly, like a struggle he's overcoming or whatever.
Speaker 1: It's just a human person. Definitely, I and I mean
Speaker 1: I certainly I think that, like I mean, I think
Speaker 1: it's kind of a generally held the opinion that more
Speaker 1: disabled actors should be playing these parts. Definitely in context
Speaker 1: in two thousand and four, being that they did not
Speaker 1: cast a disabled actor, I feel like Macaulay Culkin did
Speaker 1: a good job and they I mean, again, I'm interested
Speaker 1: in in disabled perspectives on this, but it seems like
Speaker 1: he did his homework by like from all the research
Speaker 1: I did, and like what his process was. And this
Speaker 1: was kind of like the beginning of a comeback for
Speaker 1: him as well, because it look like a ten year
Speaker 1: break from acting. I think this was like one of
Speaker 1: his first big film roles. As like an adults and
Speaker 1: he's great potty monster. Was that around the time it
Speaker 1: was I think of the year before this. Yeah, Mcaulay Culkin,
Speaker 1: I love so great. Yes, I mean I do think
Speaker 1: he did a great job with the role. And that
Speaker 1: that love story with Cassandra Rocks, I know, it's so sweet.
Speaker 1: Actuality is right because they have this nice um moment
Speaker 1: towards the end where he's saying, like he's talking about
Speaker 1: like him trying to figure out, oh, are we together
Speaker 1: because like I was depending on you, and no, that's
Speaker 1: not it and that's not what I want. I'm with
Speaker 1: you because I like you and we get each other,
Speaker 1: and she's like I want I like you too, I
Speaker 1: want you to and it's like this this nic and
Speaker 1: she and I like that. It's like a little inversion
Speaker 1: but like she has to like go after him, which
Speaker 1: almost which I feel like it's usually the opposite. And
Speaker 1: it's so I forgot how much I was like affected
Speaker 1: by their like love story when I was like junior high.
Speaker 1: But it's so nice and then prom outfits just yeah,
Speaker 1: they're matching. They're sweet and there and and I like
Speaker 1: because I mean generally I like Cassandra's character a lot too.
Speaker 1: It's like I it is, I don't know. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm not Christian. I didn't grow up particularly religious at all.
Speaker 1: I like went to church, but I didn't I a
Speaker 1: lot of this. The hyper Christian plot poise in this
Speaker 1: movie didn't super hit for me because I wasn't really
Speaker 1: entrenched in anything other than um Mandy Moore and pictures
Speaker 1: of her on Google Images. But it was I mean
Speaker 1: Cassandra's character. I like Cassandra's character a lot because she's
Speaker 1: introduced as like a stock rebel character that ends up
Speaker 1: having like all of this depth and a lot more
Speaker 1: and like part of what ends up making her not
Speaker 1: like the other girls is that, like she has more
Speaker 1: compassion than most of the people at the school. And
Speaker 1: I really liked where it was like Mary for so
Speaker 1: much of the movie seemed to have like all these
Speaker 1: had a number of women in her life, but no
Speaker 1: one who she was really like connecting with, And and
Speaker 1: then that person ends up being Cassandra, and it's so
Speaker 1: nice to watch their friendship kind of like develop. When
Speaker 1: Cassandra it seems like Cassandra is about to bully her,
Speaker 1: which is what Mary's used to, but then she hugs
Speaker 1: her and then I cry. Well, going back a little
Speaker 1: bit to the religious point of it, I personally like,
Speaker 1: I went to a Catholic school when I was younger,
Speaker 1: but I'm from Boston, and I feel like Catholic schools
Speaker 1: in Boston are like Catholic schools in Boston, but they're
Speaker 1: not like this school. Like, if that makes sense at
Speaker 1: least mine, I don't know. It's not exactly the same. However,
Speaker 1: in college, my roommate when she got to college was
Speaker 1: not very religious, and she wasn't very religious when she
Speaker 1: got to college because she was raised super super conservative
Speaker 1: religious in in Raleigh in North Carolina, went to a
Speaker 1: Baptist school. Her brother was gay. He came out in
Speaker 1: high school and they expelled him. And this was in
Speaker 1: twenty so like the stuff that they're talking about it
Speaker 1: it's like from two thousand four. But it also like
Speaker 1: is people's lived experience. And I think that's what's so
Speaker 1: great about the film, and that they're showing you this
Speaker 1: is a real lived experience and like, let's make fun
Speaker 1: of it because it's absolutely ridiculous that this is happening.
Speaker 1: And at the end, let's like make sure we're pushing
Speaker 1: home the message that God made everyone different and that's beautiful,
Speaker 1: but it is also still like it hits you different
Speaker 1: when you know that this is stuff that still happens. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I read that the director and co writer Brian Dannally
Speaker 1: based everything that happens in the film off of things
Speaker 1: he either witnessed while attending a I think he went
Speaker 1: to a Baptist high school or had heard other people's experiences,
Speaker 1: so he didn't like make anything up. This was all
Speaker 1: just like this was like stuff that he saw or
Speaker 1: stuff that that other people had seen. And also he's
Speaker 1: a queer director who like came out and got disowned
Speaker 1: by his parents and like went through and then was
Speaker 1: later accepted by his parents. And it was I I
Speaker 1: had never watched this movie with that context. I was
Speaker 1: like when I was in high school, I wasn't like
Speaker 1: who directed this? I would just like look at all
Speaker 1: the pretty people. Um, But yeah, watching it where it's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I would guess I I don't have like
Speaker 1: a specific quote for him, but I would guess that
Speaker 1: a lot of like Dean's character is like him relaying
Speaker 1: some of his own experience or like cathartic re revisiting
Speaker 1: it where he came out in high school in a
Speaker 1: very religious family and was disowned and then like went
Speaker 1: on to have this very successful career leader. So I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I viewed Dean in a in a
Speaker 1: I mean, I always liked Dean because what's not to like.
Speaker 1: But it was cool to know that that's kind of
Speaker 1: like a director, like pulling from his direct experience too.
Speaker 1: That was cool. One thing I was hoping for more
Speaker 1: of in the movie was like us cutting back to
Speaker 1: Dean at mercy House and like seeing what he was
Speaker 1: going through there. I would have liked to see more
Speaker 1: of that. I guess that's what the movie. But I'm
Speaker 1: a Cheerleader is for. So if you're like, I want
Speaker 1: to see more of that, like, WA's that movie? I
Speaker 1: was getting big But I'm a cheerleader vibes from mercy
Speaker 1: House in general. But I love what we got that
Speaker 1: just he plays it so well, like the Himich so cute.
Speaker 1: And then there I forgot. I don't know why, but
Speaker 1: I forgot that they come to the prom at the end,
Speaker 1: and that great. Like I don't know any movie that
Speaker 1: comes out in the early two thousand's, You're like, this
Speaker 1: could go really badly at any second. But then it doesn't,
Speaker 1: and it goes like beautifully and you're like yeah, Dean,
Speaker 1: and Dean is like, oh, you're pregnant. Wow, we're so fertile,
Speaker 1: or like whatever. He I'm a daddy, Like I'm so happy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then everyone and then they hug and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is so nice. I love that this This kid
Speaker 1: has so many parents, it's overwhelmed. And then old of these,
Speaker 1: like seventeen year old is just ready for it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: seen year olds are like, let's be parents, Let's do this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let me raise another manse child. This is gonna go great.
Speaker 1: Like mcaulay culkin and Susan Surrandon's daughter, They're like, we
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with any of this, and yet
Speaker 1: we were also the parents. Are they're the godparents? Maybe yes? Maybe?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Let's take another a quick break and
Speaker 1: then we'll come back for more discussion and we're back.
Speaker 1: We haven't talked that much about Mary, right, everything else,
Speaker 1: all the side plus, Yeah, I've not talked about Mary
Speaker 1: that much. But I love Mary. One thing I really
Speaker 1: appreciate about her is that she looks like a normal teenager,
Speaker 1: and I just think we don't get enough of that,
Speaker 1: like she's got acne, her hair is sometimes greasy, and
Speaker 1: I'm just like, yes, this is how teenagers are so refreshing.
Speaker 1: It was really cool to see acne on screen, like
Speaker 1: remember that from watching it for the first time, because
Speaker 1: like when the way that they like and I wonder
Speaker 1: if this was like an intentional thing, but like the
Speaker 1: way that they covered up Jenna Malone's like chin acne
Speaker 1: was like the way that I would have, which was
Speaker 1: like with a concealer that was not my shade. I
Speaker 1: think it was an intentional choice, Yes, I hope, so
Speaker 1: otherwise I'm like dragging the makeup department. But I would
Speaker 1: always like cover up my chen acte with like a
Speaker 1: shade that was like lighter than my shade, so it
Speaker 1: was almost like an arrow being like check out what's
Speaker 1: going on down here. That was something that struck me
Speaker 1: about eighth grade two that like they Kayla in that
Speaker 1: movie has visible acne and there's like no attempt to
Speaker 1: buy the production by the makeup department to cover it
Speaker 1: up because guess what teens have acne? And something behind
Speaker 1: the scenes fact that I found that really just like
Speaker 1: warmed my heart was so gener alone and Mandy Moore
Speaker 1: are the same age, but they're coming from a pretty
Speaker 1: different place where like genem Alone at this time is
Speaker 1: like an indie darling and Mandy Moore is like this
Speaker 1: international pop star. So they're like same age but from
Speaker 1: different world. And there was like this genlem Alone quote
Speaker 1: that was like I was really skeptical and I was
Speaker 1: like kind of frustrated that the cast a pop star
Speaker 1: in this movie. But then Maddy and are friends and
Speaker 1: she was so nice and she like asked me for
Speaker 1: tips on acting and was like trying to become a
Speaker 1: better actor and liked genlem alonees of work. I was like,
Speaker 1: that's so wholesome and may be so happy. I love that. So,
Speaker 1: Hilary Fay in real life they're actually friends. They're actually friends,
Speaker 1: or they at least were for the one month this
Speaker 1: movie is shooting. Still sweet, maybe smile, but I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I like I like Mary as a character a lot.
Speaker 1: I like her arc as well, where you know, she
Speaker 1: starts out not really questioning anything about kind of the
Speaker 1: religious institution that she was raised in, and then when
Speaker 1: a few things happened, like her boyfriend being disowned for
Speaker 1: being gay and her getting pregnant, she starts to question
Speaker 1: her faith, and not in a way she ultimately ends
Speaker 1: up not believing in her religion anymore, or not believing
Speaker 1: in God anymore or anything like that. It's more that
Speaker 1: she just becomes more of a critical thinker about it.
Speaker 1: Because what I like about this movie, and even though,
Speaker 1: like I was raised as an atheist, I'm still an atheist.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate anything that is critical of organized religion
Speaker 1: because I think there's a fair amount to be critical of.
Speaker 1: But the message of this movie is not like, don't
Speaker 1: be a Christian. It's more just calling out the hypocrisy
Speaker 1: that sometimes coincides with some Christian people's behaviors and attitudes.
Speaker 1: And I think this movie is very helpful in that
Speaker 1: way because it still gives people permission to believe whatever
Speaker 1: they want to believe. It just encourages people to be
Speaker 1: analytical about what they believe and to practice compassion over
Speaker 1: judgment and things like that. And Like, as someone who
Speaker 1: was raised with like in Catholicism, with Christians, I agree
Speaker 1: that it is like when you're in that community, Like
Speaker 1: for for me, my community was always accepting, So it's
Speaker 1: like you can still have all of the positive things
Speaker 1: about Christianity, which is what Mary's trying to say, like
Speaker 1: if God tells us to love everyone, why don't we
Speaker 1: love Dean? And it's like more questioning, Okay, well, why
Speaker 1: are the people around me telling telling me these things?
Speaker 1: And why is? Why are they why are these messages
Speaker 1: of love being distorted? And then it's like even if
Speaker 1: you don't believe in Christianity or you don't believe in
Speaker 1: a God, that's fine, but you can believe in loving
Speaker 1: other people. That's universal. Yeah. I really appreciated that angle
Speaker 1: where it was like almost like I feel like in
Speaker 1: some movies and this isn't even really a criticism because
Speaker 1: I don't like dislike this choice, but sometimes it's like
Speaker 1: the the lead character is so headstrong and so unlike
Speaker 1: the other that you're like, it's almost like an intellectual
Speaker 1: Mary Sue situation where you're like, wait, how did they
Speaker 1: arrive at this conclusion? Like I agree, but I'm like old,
Speaker 1: so how did they get there? At age you know, fifteen?
Speaker 1: Where it was kind of refreshing and cool to watch
Speaker 1: Mary challenge things in a very kind of like realistic way,
Speaker 1: and at the end, I mean like who knows, maybe
Speaker 1: you know by the time she's like twenty, she's completely
Speaker 1: disavowed Christianity and she's not into it at all. But like,
Speaker 1: it felt all of her choices made sense to me
Speaker 1: more so than in a lot of teen movies, where
Speaker 1: it was just kind of clearly the writer making like,
Speaker 1: uh value statement about like this is how I feel
Speaker 1: people should act, So my teen lead is going to
Speaker 1: act this way. Where it was like because I mean,
Speaker 1: because Brian Daniley is writing from his own experience, He's like, well,
Speaker 1: I feel like he does a pretty good job of
Speaker 1: putting himself in issues of like well, how would a
Speaker 1: girl who grew up so entrenched in these values, like
Speaker 1: what would be her process of working through this? And
Speaker 1: it's like I really liked it. I thought it was
Speaker 1: really sweet and like had a weird amount of love
Speaker 1: for Christians, you know, right, Like most movies would not
Speaker 1: extend because you see, you see enough perspectives from different characters.
Speaker 1: Where you have a character like Hilary Faye who has
Speaker 1: taken her religious beliefs to the extreme, to the point
Speaker 1: where a lot of what she says and does is
Speaker 1: very problematic. Then you have Mary who seems to identify
Speaker 1: as Christians the whole way through the movie, but her
Speaker 1: relationship with Christianity changes throughout the story because of you know,
Speaker 1: different things that happen. Then you have Dean, who also
Speaker 1: remains a Christian throughout the whole movie, despite different fellow
Speaker 1: Christians thinking that he he's living in sin for his sexuality.
Speaker 1: Then you have Roland, who probably was a Christian earlier
Speaker 1: in his youth but then decided he wasn't anymore. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if he specifically identifies as atheist in
Speaker 1: the movie, but he says at one point I'm not
Speaker 1: a Christian. Yeah. Then you have Patrick, who is like
Speaker 1: the pastor's son, who again still identifies as Christian, but
Speaker 1: does more of like kind of the critical thinking that
Speaker 1: Mary comes to do towards the end. And Patrick to
Speaker 1: who like challenges like he challenges his dad, And he
Speaker 1: also said one of the like when I don't know.
Speaker 1: One of the lens that really took me off guard
Speaker 1: on this viewing was like him talking to Jenna Malone
Speaker 1: and being like, well, I think my dad is wrong
Speaker 1: about how he like basically like he says, I think
Speaker 1: it's wrong how my dad views gay students like that's nice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think he says I don't think Dan's sick, yeah
Speaker 1: like or yeah, like, it's the people who are sending
Speaker 1: him there that have the problem, not him. And wait,
Speaker 1: what's I wrote that quote down because I liked it
Speaker 1: a lot. Let me find it here. Oh yeah, Patrick says,
Speaker 1: and I started to root for Patrick definitively. He says,
Speaker 1: Mercy House doesn't exist for the people who get sent there.
Speaker 1: It exists more for the people who do the sending.
Speaker 1: And it's like, yeah, absolutely, Patrick, Yeah, Patrick, Jean Patrick.
Speaker 1: But I think that even if you're not religious, because
Speaker 1: I grew up in an atheist house, but I think
Speaker 1: that every child kind of goes on that journey with
Speaker 1: their parents. I mean, like, my parents have pretty conservative
Speaker 1: values about a lot of things, and there is a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that I said as a teenager or
Speaker 1: thought as a teenager that I just didn't know was
Speaker 1: any different. And I went on my own sort of
Speaker 1: journey of discovery with that as well. And I think
Speaker 1: even that's relatable in its own way. Definitely same. Can
Speaker 1: we talk about Mary Louise Parker and there's some crushes
Speaker 1: in this Lee Is Kenny. I honestly totally forgot her
Speaker 1: entire plot in the ten years that I hadn't seen
Speaker 1: this movie. I do think that she is like a
Speaker 1: pretty exceptionally shitty parent and I was not rooting for
Speaker 1: her at all. And I also think Mary is way
Speaker 1: too nice and forgiving to her She is too Christian
Speaker 1: about it. She should have been like mad at her
Speaker 1: mom or I would have been mad at Mary Louise
Speaker 1: Parker if she was my mom. Where it like she
Speaker 1: didn't notice that her daughter was pregnant, and on top
Speaker 1: of that, when she found out her daughter was pregnant,
Speaker 1: she punished her and made it about herself or like
Speaker 1: allowed her to be persuaded by Pastor's skip that like
Speaker 1: her daughter's pregnancy was somehow about her, and that she
Speaker 1: was going to punish her pregnant daughter because of something
Speaker 1: that she had done that she was not going to
Speaker 1: I was just like, I can't believe this movie made
Speaker 1: me be mad at Mary Louise Parker, but yes, there
Speaker 1: it is. I also think, like I'm on the other
Speaker 1: side of it, I do think they were what they
Speaker 1: were trying to do, which I could understand, is like,
Speaker 1: this is a single mother. Did she get pregnant when
Speaker 1: she was young as well? Is that what we're inferring,
Speaker 1: but she was married. I don't know. I know that
Speaker 1: she was like widowed when her daughter was young, but
Speaker 1: I don't know if she was like if she had
Speaker 1: a baby young or what what that what the implication
Speaker 1: was there? I'm not sure. Wait, Lisa, what were you
Speaker 1: gonna say? I just think she had her young and
Speaker 1: them was widowed. But either way, it seemed like she
Speaker 1: just was She's a woman who just could not handle
Speaker 1: her daughter, and then her daughter basically became her caretaker.
Speaker 1: She has to die her hair a lot. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but you can. I just think she she seems like
Speaker 1: she was very overwhelmed and just and then her daughter
Speaker 1: was more mature than her and basically started taking care
Speaker 1: of her. And she's like, oh, this is how our
Speaker 1: relationship is great and never changed it, which is not
Speaker 1: like she should definitely change it. But that's definitely like
Speaker 1: where I saw it. Yeah, I don't think I saw
Speaker 1: it so problematic because my biological mother is a narcissist,
Speaker 1: So I was like, this is fine. It depends where
Speaker 1: your bar is. My bar is really loves. I think
Speaker 1: I got mad because I have a very narcissistic parent
Speaker 1: that I would just like, yeah, I wanted Mary to
Speaker 1: like push against it more than she did. Ultimately, it's
Speaker 1: Mary Louise Parker, so it's fine, but I can understand.
Speaker 1: She does go like, this baby needs to be raised
Speaker 1: by a mother and a father, and it's like, you mean,
Speaker 1: two teenagers, do you really think they're going to be
Speaker 1: the best candidates to raise a child? Like what are
Speaker 1: you talking Because she's like contemplating sending her away to
Speaker 1: Mercy House, I guess to raise this baby with Dean
Speaker 1: And it's like, what that would be the worst possible idea?
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? I was just mad at her. Well,
Speaker 1: she also like she definitely likes had complete blinders on
Speaker 1: with Pastor's Skip too, just like there's a man who's
Speaker 1: paying attention to me for like she was getting the
Speaker 1: day that's all bit matted. Yeah, Pastor Skip sucks. Also
Speaker 1: there's a whole part with Pastor's Skip, which everything in
Speaker 1: this film is like exposing the hypocrisy. Right. You have
Speaker 1: Pastors Skip who is committing adultery according you know, like
Speaker 1: the Christian values, and he's the one who's like, oh,
Speaker 1: your daughter is needs to go here, when it's like
Speaker 1: just take a look at yourself, like no one should
Speaker 1: be judged in my like, it's like just yeah, so
Speaker 1: and I like that. I mean Patrick pushes up against
Speaker 1: him a little and it's like, mom wanted to divorce.
Speaker 1: You seem to want to not be with her. Why
Speaker 1: are you doing this? And he's like, well, because Jesus
Speaker 1: Christ and so literally she'll live abroad for twenty years
Speaker 1: and they'll still be married and it will bang, Mary
Speaker 1: Louise Bacca, that'll be what's best for your son, Like
Speaker 1: what are you doing? But yeah, I think the Mary
Speaker 1: Louise Parker character is not like the way that she's
Speaker 1: presented in the movie is not like bad writing. I
Speaker 1: think it's more just another indication of like, here's how
Speaker 1: sometimes people are hypocritical or they'll clin you know, they'll
Speaker 1: be like, I'm Christian, but then they don't they don't
Speaker 1: do the Christian thing, or they don't actually be there
Speaker 1: for their daughter when they need her, and you know,
Speaker 1: things like that. So I hope she steps it up
Speaker 1: as a grandmother. Yes, I felt like there was an
Speaker 1: arc towards the end, maybe because yeah, she's the one
Speaker 1: who gets into the ambulance and then I love you daughter,
Speaker 1: and then in the hospital she's like, I'm a grandma.
Speaker 1: I think again, maybe I'm like bringing too much personal
Speaker 1: baggage to the table. But whenever, like a mother daughter
Speaker 1: like conflict is resolved by being like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I thought about it, and I don't regret having you.
Speaker 1: That is not a satisfactory resolution for me. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: Is that not love? I've come to understand that's love,
Speaker 1: and in fact that is seems to be like another
Speaker 1: bar is on the floor of like you know what,
Speaker 1: I actually don't regret that you are currently alive. You're
Speaker 1: just like thanks anything else for any other forgot that line.
Speaker 1: It's soap, that's so bad. That's how they're plot resolves.
Speaker 1: Or she's like, I know it. I made it seem
Speaker 1: like I wish you were never born, but actually I
Speaker 1: don't feel that way. I'm glad you were born. And
Speaker 1: that happens kind of like not infrequently. I can't think
Speaker 1: of another example at the top of my head, but
Speaker 1: it was like it's like teen sometimes, like teen parent stuff,
Speaker 1: especially when there's like a young parent, it plays out
Speaker 1: that way quite frequently, like well I would have done this,
Speaker 1: this isn't this if you weren't born And they're like
Speaker 1: and then you know, five minutes later, girl like I'm
Speaker 1: glad you were born and then they hug like that
Speaker 1: left track. You're like wait what But like, as someone
Speaker 1: who is a result of teen pregnancy, that is literally
Speaker 1: my life. So I like the representation. We're talking about
Speaker 1: representation here, exactly true. Does anyone have any other things
Speaker 1: they want to talk about? I want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about Tia. I feel like she's a character.
Speaker 1: She's so great. We love Heather, Heather like underrated person
Speaker 1: or eye endorsed Bernie every time, married to a comedian
Speaker 1: like really no notes, But I like, I thought that
Speaker 1: was an interesting character because she we've seen this character
Speaker 1: before of like wanting to be in the popular group
Speaker 1: and kind of doing whatever it takes. And she works
Speaker 1: like several jobs so that she can earn money to
Speaker 1: buy a car so she can like offer rides to
Speaker 1: the popular girls, and she just wants to fit in
Speaker 1: and have like but it's a case of she is
Speaker 1: also being mistreated by Hillary Faye because Hillary Fame mistreats
Speaker 1: everyone around her. Uh, and then she's the one to
Speaker 1: expose like, oh yes you did buy those spray paints.
Speaker 1: Redemption for Tia and then she picks up the the
Speaker 1: tr At the end, she's like, can I wear the
Speaker 1: tiar and Hillary faces a great storyline. I love it.
Speaker 1: I think. Also one of my favorite lines in the
Speaker 1: movie is when Pasta Skiff is telling them they need
Speaker 1: to help their friends, and he's like, you've got to
Speaker 1: I don't remember what he says, something like you've got
Speaker 1: to go and be a warrior for the Lord. And
Speaker 1: she looks at him like dead pan serious and goes like,
Speaker 1: shoot her. It's just so well done and so good. Yes, amazing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's so good. How the Matterazzo rocks, and how their
Speaker 1: Matarazzo Mandy More collaborations rock. They're just all very When
Speaker 1: I guess maybe it's I haven't been keeping up, I'm like,
Speaker 1: she should go on, this is us, Yes, start with Mandy,
Speaker 1: bring it back. I wanted to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about Cassandra also. I think we've like we've touched on
Speaker 1: her quite a bit already, but I just really enjoy
Speaker 1: her as a character. We commented on this too, but
Speaker 1: they're like, well she's not She's Jewish and that equals
Speaker 1: punk rocks, smoking, getting drunk at school, like like that
Speaker 1: equals that equals the opposite of religious, which is like
Speaker 1: Jewish is also a religion. So yeah, it feels like
Speaker 1: a very like two thousand four American simplistic interpretation to
Speaker 1: be like the opposite of Christian is Jewish Jewish, You're like, well,
Speaker 1: it's really just a different like so yeah, like well,
Speaker 1: if the writer it's just like this weird false math
Speaker 1: equation where it's like, well, if the opposite of Christian
Speaker 1: is Jewish, in the opposite of what Christians do is
Speaker 1: what a Jewish character would do, which is also like no, no,
Speaker 1: but like interesting attempts. I don't know either way. I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed her character, the part where at the beginning
Speaker 1: when she's like fake speaking in tongues and she's really
Speaker 1: just being like, my hot pussy, it's good. That also
Speaker 1: means that Susan Surandon for sure saw this movie and
Speaker 1: was like I'm sure she was proud. Yeah, like Susan
Speaker 1: Surrandon was in Rocky Horror. Yes, I'm sure she was like, yes,
Speaker 1: following my foot stuff like she sings touch me. It
Speaker 1: was an homage to touch me. That's true. Yes, incredible.
Speaker 1: She also has a rocking bod like that last seme
Speaker 1: and she's chasing. I think that was like a moment
Speaker 1: for me when I was younger, like, oh god, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's definite cleavage. She manages to work past again another
Speaker 1: god awful haircut. I'm like, what is this? What is this?
Speaker 1: May it never return? Oh? But it will? They always do,
Speaker 1: always cycle back. Also shout out to the scene where
Speaker 1: it's right after Dean has come out to Mary and
Speaker 1: then Mary Google's just the word gay, which is so funny.
Speaker 1: And then what comes up is guys ram a lot
Speaker 1: dot com, which I did go to and it like
Speaker 1: directs to I forget what podcast it is, but it
Speaker 1: directs do a YouTube link of a podcast talking about
Speaker 1: this movie, which is really clever, which means that podcast
Speaker 1: bought that domain name that god that's wait, let me
Speaker 1: let me do that right now. They honestly deserve it.
Speaker 1: It's um my brother, my brother's friend, and me is
Speaker 1: the podcast. So shouts out to them and their episode
Speaker 1: on saved, which you can find if you go to
Speaker 1: guys ram a lot dot com bookmarked on my browser.
Speaker 1: That's my favorite thing to do is go to uh.
Speaker 1: If there's a website or an email address in a movie,
Speaker 1: you better believe that I will send an email to
Speaker 1: that email address or go to and go to that,
Speaker 1: or a phone number that doesn't start with five five five.
Speaker 1: You're like, then it was something, And usually it's just
Speaker 1: like I remember that Luke on Gilmore Girls said a
Speaker 1: non five five five number one time and it was
Speaker 1: like donate to Red Cross and I was like, damn it,
Speaker 1: not that someone gave me their phone number. Um. I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about this when we're talking about if
Speaker 1: it passes the Backtel test. Yeah, I think we're there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the exorcism. Maybe we'll start with the exorcism scene. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: I have been contemplating does it pass the Bechdel test
Speaker 1: because it's three girls in the van and they take
Speaker 1: they take Mary and they perform an exorcism on her.
Speaker 1: But they're talking about God and Satan in the exorcism
Speaker 1: and but our God and Satan women. Oh well, I
Speaker 1: like that's open the interpretation. Yeah, I think that, yes,
Speaker 1: it is open to interpretation. But I think these particular
Speaker 1: people's interpretation of God and Satan is that they are men.
Speaker 1: Mandy Moore thinks that they're man, that God is a man.
Speaker 1: But it's also just a ridiculous scene I'm filled with
Speaker 1: the power friends and throws a bible at her. It's
Speaker 1: just so good. Mandy Moore, really, I feel like shines
Speaker 1: in the scene. She's wearing like not a juicy guitar
Speaker 1: track suit, but essentially a juicy guitar track suit, and
Speaker 1: she's with the Halloween out with the with the angel wing.
Speaker 1: She's like the opposite of a walk to remember, whipping
Speaker 1: a bible at someone's ahead Like, it's incredible, a great scene,
Speaker 1: a great thing. And they're also what are they what
Speaker 1: soundtrack are they playing there? I felt like, oh, like parody.
Speaker 1: Isn't Halloween. It's something very spooky. Yeah, it's like hurtying
Speaker 1: like a horror soundtrack when they abduct their friend to
Speaker 1: throw a bible at her head. Yeah, maybe my instinct
Speaker 1: was Halloween, but I also could be quite wrong. I
Speaker 1: don't remember. It's something very ominous and spooky whatever it is,
Speaker 1: seventies horror of he is being parodied, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm so young, I have no idea. Um, I think
Speaker 1: it passes the Bechtel test in other cases though to
Speaker 1: a ton. Yeah, Honestly, like many times recently, forgot to
Speaker 1: pay attention to the Bechtel test. It definitely, I mean,
Speaker 1: it definitely passes quite a bit. I mean I think
Speaker 1: that most of the interactions in this movie are between women.
Speaker 1: I mean there are a lot of you know, women
Speaker 1: aren't getting along, they're not seeing eye to eye quite
Speaker 1: a bit. But that doesn't mean that they're talking about men.
Speaker 1: Like it passes between Mandie Moore and genom Alone, passes
Speaker 1: between genom Alone and Mary Louise Parker, passes between Jenna
Speaker 1: Malone and Susan Sarandon's daughter, didn't use one character name.
Speaker 1: It passes a lot. Yeah, I like trying to pay
Speaker 1: attention to it. And there was one scene where they're
Speaker 1: watching Valerie Burton Elly and I was like, all this passes.
Speaker 1: It was just them talking about the movie. But I
Speaker 1: was like, oh yeah, yeah, it's her and her mom
Speaker 1: just sitting on the couch. This works. You love to
Speaker 1: see it. It does. And for a movie, you know,
Speaker 1: for a movie written by a man, that's not nothing
Speaker 1: and we'll take it. Or yeah, when they're when her
Speaker 1: and Cassandra are talking about her being pregnant in the bathroom, yeah,
Speaker 1: almost that entire scene passes. I guess the where he
Speaker 1: does get murky as God comes up a lot and
Speaker 1: they seem to all be like pro God and Jesus
Speaker 1: are talked about a lot. The Ariana Grande song had
Speaker 1: not yet dropped and it hadn't been introduced into the zeitgeist.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, it's passes um. Let's take a look
Speaker 1: at the film with via the nipple scale zero to
Speaker 1: five nipples based on an examination of the film through
Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens um. This one, it's a little tricky,
Speaker 1: as there are some things, as we discuss, that are
Speaker 1: quite of the time of two thousand four, like problematic
Speaker 1: language that gets used by characters who we are meant
Speaker 1: to be rooting for, the whole fat shaming storyline done
Speaker 1: by characters who we are meant to be rooting for, um,
Speaker 1: things like that that obviously age terribly. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: you have this movie that's satirizing, like religious fundamentalism, specifically
Speaker 1: like Christian attitudes towards queerness and towards premarital sex and
Speaker 1: and and things like that. That uh, the takeaway is like,
Speaker 1: think critically about these things and don't just do whatever
Speaker 1: your religious leaders tell you to do, because sometimes those
Speaker 1: things are harmful and hypocritical and they're doing it anyway, right,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think there's there's a lot of things
Speaker 1: to like about the movie. I think that it does
Speaker 1: still fall into some you know, teen movie tropes and
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, But overall, I enjoy this movie.
Speaker 1: I think it handles most of the things that it's
Speaker 1: trying to tackle pretty well. There's disability visibility, although it's
Speaker 1: not perfect. They didn't cast a disabled actor to play
Speaker 1: the part. I also want to point out that Roland
Speaker 1: is on the poster of this movie, but he appears
Speaker 1: to be standing along with the other main characters who
Speaker 1: also appear to be standing upright, So he's not in
Speaker 1: his wheelchair on the poster, which feels like deliberate erasure
Speaker 1: of his disability, and that is messed up and confusing. Um. So,
Speaker 1: you know, there are missteps like that when it comes
Speaker 1: to the disability representation in this movie, but it also
Speaker 1: feels like it's going in the right direction in other regards,
Speaker 1: especially the movie giving Roland a romantic relationship. I wish
Speaker 1: we would have gotten to know the queer characters better.
Speaker 1: Different things like that where I felt the movie was
Speaker 1: a bit lacking. But overall, I do appreciate that this
Speaker 1: movie is providing commentary on some of the more problematic
Speaker 1: and hypocritical and homophobic attitudes that unfortunately some Christians have.
Speaker 1: I would give this probably like somewhere between a three
Speaker 1: and a three and a half. Maybe I'll just kind
Speaker 1: of split it down the middle three point to five
Speaker 1: because a decimal love quarter nipple. Um, yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: or maybe it deserves more than that. I don't know.
Speaker 1: The nipple scale also doesn't matter. Perfect magic, the perfect
Speaker 1: magic never made a mistake. No. People all the time
Speaker 1: are like, what you give this movie that nipple rating?
Speaker 1: And I'm just like, I don't know, I don't You
Speaker 1: just need to listen to the previous part. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: listen to the episode thing. If you're listening for the end,
Speaker 1: I don't know what to tell you. I'll give it
Speaker 1: as I'll give it a three point five, and I'll
Speaker 1: give one nipple to Marry, one nipple to Cassandra, one
Speaker 1: to Roland, and I'll give my half nipple to Dean.
Speaker 1: And that's how I distribute my nipples today. Please and
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm gonna do three and a half as well.
Speaker 1: I agree with your interpretation, Geel, like like it is, like,
Speaker 1: especially for two thousand four, it's doing a lot right
Speaker 1: that most teen movies we're not doing right at the time.
Speaker 1: I'm glad it was like successful. I'm glad that it
Speaker 1: got like for such a like you know, pretty like
Speaker 1: low budget movie. It has so many really like popular
Speaker 1: actors and performances that are really good. Um, it's a
Speaker 1: super super white movie. I feel like it's like one
Speaker 1: of it's most glaring flaws, which is also extremely two
Speaker 1: thousand four of it to do. That said, there there's
Speaker 1: a lot that it does right, and it's I feel
Speaker 1: like kind of in I'm trying to think if like, um,
Speaker 1: teen movie has done what Saved did as well since
Speaker 1: and I can't really think of one. So it's kind
Speaker 1: of in a league of its own in that way.
Speaker 1: And I really enjoyed rewatching it. Um and I still
Speaker 1: have a crush on Mandy Moore and three and a
Speaker 1: half nipples one to Marry Louise Parker, one to Mandy Moore,
Speaker 1: one of maccullague Culkin when all my crushes and then
Speaker 1: the other half goes to genlem Alone, who I hope
Speaker 1: it's doing great. Yes, yeah, Um, I feel like I
Speaker 1: want to be a different nipple, just because just to
Speaker 1: be different, even though I feel like a three point
Speaker 1: five is pretty fair. But I'm just gonna go with
Speaker 1: four nipples so i can give full nipples to everyone. Um.
Speaker 1: I agree with all of the problematic stuff about it,
Speaker 1: which is why I can't really give it more. Um.
Speaker 1: But I also feel like two thousand four, it's like
Speaker 1: judging it by the time the Year of National Treasure,
Speaker 1: we were different people. Yes, I also feel like we
Speaker 1: haven't really talked about this as much, but I give
Speaker 1: it points for having like a teen lead who is pregnant,
Speaker 1: Like we didn't really talk about like, like that's the
Speaker 1: big thing with the movie that I feel like we
Speaker 1: didn't talk about Mary as much. Um. So that being said,
Speaker 1: I'll give a nipple to Marry two Dean, to Tiya
Speaker 1: who hasn't gone to nipple yet, and to Valerie Burton
Speaker 1: Elly for being on screen sometimes during the film. Hell yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: nice And you're totally right, Ellie, we did not talk
Speaker 1: about this. But teen pregnancy is something that we have
Speaker 1: a difficult relationship with as a society. It is generally
Speaker 1: very shamed by society and then more recently by the media.
Speaker 1: Kind of exploited with like the whole teen mom expanded
Speaker 1: universe and stuff like that. Totally totally, and you know,
Speaker 1: while it's not an ideal situation, I think it's like
Speaker 1: very much worth reframing how we think about teen pregnancy
Speaker 1: because it usually happens because teenagers are not provided with
Speaker 1: the education and resources they need about how to prevent pregnancy,
Speaker 1: because comprehensive sex education is not a thing that is
Speaker 1: commonly taught in schools in the US, and no matter
Speaker 1: how many times proving that sex education lowers the rates
Speaker 1: of teen pregnancy, and by withholding information and resources and tools,
Speaker 1: you are perhaps doing people a disservice, just imagine, right,
Speaker 1: especially because like in a Christian school like the one
Speaker 1: featured in the movie, they are almost certainly doing if
Speaker 1: they do have any sex education at all, it's probably
Speaker 1: abstinence only sex education, which is like basically what I
Speaker 1: got when I was in high school, which which kind
Speaker 1: of extends to fearmongering. Reminds me of the scene in
Speaker 1: Mean Girls of like if you have sex, you will
Speaker 1: die right there, So I mean, I think, yeah, if
Speaker 1: if you want to hear a more a longer conversation
Speaker 1: about how teen pregnancy are treated in movies. I would
Speaker 1: direct you to our Juno episode on the Matrion. I
Speaker 1: think is maybe the longest conversation we've had about it indeed. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think it's it's worth just kind of
Speaker 1: re evaluating. I've had to do some of my own
Speaker 1: kind of re evaluating how I feel about teen pregnancy, um,
Speaker 1: because you know, it's it's our broken education system that's
Speaker 1: really mostly at fault for why teen pregnancy is a thing.
Speaker 1: One of the issues that in particular that shaming the
Speaker 1: individual does worse than nothing and I and I like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, in the case of this movie, it kind
Speaker 1: of like ends ideally, but that Yeah, that like the
Speaker 1: teen and question had a wonderful support system, and not
Speaker 1: all teenagers are that lucky, but it but it is
Speaker 1: nice to see that shown of um, that a baby
Speaker 1: needs a support system, not the nuclear American family that
Speaker 1: we're shown so often for sure. Yeah. Anyway, Lisa, what
Speaker 1: about you for your nipple rating? I definitely had three
Speaker 1: point five as well, So I'm going to just go
Speaker 1: back to being a shape and following. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a good it's a good rating. It's popular because it's right,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, exactly like a popular thing, right, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm also going to give one to Tia. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: give one to Jni Mary Louise Paka. I think she
Speaker 1: deserves it. I'm going to give one to Save the Musical,
Speaker 1: which we didn't discuss but that exists found on YouTube,
Speaker 1: which is um like John Dawest is in it, like, um,
Speaker 1: Tripp Vanderbilt from Gossip Girl he plays. Are you talking
Speaker 1: about Aaron Tibate, Yes, yes, yes, I'm like Aaron Tibate.
Speaker 1: Also is Eron Tibate like he was on Broadway before
Speaker 1: he was in Gossip CRP. I know, but I don't
Speaker 1: know his name. I just know him as Trip Vanderbilt,
Speaker 1: all right, Um. And then I'm going to give half
Speaker 1: to the guy who gives Patrick a skateboard because he's
Speaker 1: he's a friend. Yes, I love that his last name
Speaker 1: is Wheeler and therefore a skateboard like all of the
Speaker 1: we didn't really talk about it, but the way characters
Speaker 1: are named is so like goofy silly satire names like
Speaker 1: obviously Mary. But then you know Patrick's skateboard is the character. Um,
Speaker 1: and you got a hand at to Patrick's skateboard. He
Speaker 1: has a skateboard pastor skip just sounds like a youth pastor,
Speaker 1: and I was just like folly on board with like, Yep,
Speaker 1: that sounds like a youth pastor to me. Tia the
Speaker 1: name of my h boyfriend's childhood dog. So coincidence impossible. Definitely,
Speaker 1: definitely not Lilian. I'm sure it's a reference to something
Speaker 1: that I is out of my pay grade intellectually. Isn't
Speaker 1: Lilian the original evil woman in the Bible? Or is
Speaker 1: that Lili? It's but still probably close. That might be.
Speaker 1: Probably she's the temptress. Everyone who listens to Russia who
Speaker 1: is like into mythology is like, it's like, you know nothing,
Speaker 1: stop talking right now. Probably it's a method. I don't know. Also,
Speaker 1: I'm going to take my nipple away from Mary and
Speaker 1: give it to Veronica because she deserved way more. She
Speaker 1: deserved what she thought she deserves anything she got nothing side,
Speaker 1: But thank you Ellie and Lisa for being here. What
Speaker 1: a treat, Thank you for having us. Where can people
Speaker 1: check out your stuff and tell us about the pod? Yes, Lisa,
Speaker 1: do you want to take it? Or you want me
Speaker 1: to take it? I was just gonna let you take
Speaker 1: it all right. So we're really excited about our new podcast.
Speaker 1: It's called Sweetbetter. It's all about Sappho, who, to be honest,
Speaker 1: like as a feminist, not enough people know about Sappho,
Speaker 1: just like as a literary figure who was a woman.
Speaker 1: You know about Homer, like you learn about all of
Speaker 1: these ancient Greek poets, and we don't really learn that
Speaker 1: much about Sappho. So Lisa heard an episode of Buffering
Speaker 1: where our other host, Elise, was on and they were
Speaker 1: talking about Sappho, and Lisa, do you want to take
Speaker 1: it from there? That you were like, I stalked her
Speaker 1: on the Internet and was like, can we make a
Speaker 1: podcast about this? One's because I want to listen to
Speaker 1: one and it doesn't exist and it's such a cool
Speaker 1: story and I can't believe I didn't know it, So, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: don't listen to anybody's stalking and creeping on the internet
Speaker 1: gets to you everywhere. Yes, yes, And so from there
Speaker 1: we all just met on the Internet and put together
Speaker 1: this show because we all think Safa was really cool
Speaker 1: and we think anyone who listens to the show will
Speaker 1: agree with us. So I hope you check it out.
Speaker 1: We also write and perform a song for each show.
Speaker 1: So that's a fun thing that we decided to do.
Speaker 1: That adds to our workload. Yeah, because well, because Sapho
Speaker 1: is a poet, but actually all of her poems were
Speaker 1: meant to be sung. So we take the poems and
Speaker 1: we turn them into songs. But they're more contemporary pop
Speaker 1: songs what we envisioned they might be if Sappho was
Speaker 1: around now, sort of like how Mandy Moore was just
Speaker 1: a poet, but her poetry is just meant to be
Speaker 1: sung exactly, bring it all around, perfect exclamation point. Okay,
Speaker 1: and oh the Mandy Moore I will say, the Mandy
Speaker 1: Moore rule in movies is if Mandy Moore is in
Speaker 1: the movie, does she get to sing a musical number
Speaker 1: to remind you that she's Mandy Moore? And this movie
Speaker 1: follows the Mandy Moore rule because she sings a few
Speaker 1: times and it's never too it's never like a walk
Speaker 1: to remember invasive, but it is. And she sings in
Speaker 1: Princess Diaries too, she sings. Stupid Cutist is my favorite
Speaker 1: iconic everything. I love her so much. She's so perfect.
Speaker 1: Is there a movie she has not had a song
Speaker 1: in it? I wonder. I'm like, I'm trying to remember
Speaker 1: back to how to Deal which looking up the poster
Speaker 1: her worst haircut. Yeah, and I don't think she sings
Speaker 1: in the in the one way she's the president's daughter,
Speaker 1: but like maybe she's on the soundtrack, you know, maybeundtrack.
Speaker 1: You just don't know, but yeah, well you can find
Speaker 1: I'm like, also, I don't even say no if I
Speaker 1: said where you can find it. You can find at
Speaker 1: sweet Bitter podcast dot com correct or sweep Better pod,
Speaker 1: yes that's correct, or at sweet Bitter Pod on Instagram
Speaker 1: and Twitter, and we're in all of the podcast apps.
Speaker 1: And make sure you're write sweet better as one word,
Speaker 1: because if you write it as too, we won't come up.
Speaker 1: Oh good to know sad times got to be specific. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you again so much both of you for for
Speaker 1: being here and talking about Saved. You can find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe
Speaker 1: to our Patreon ak Matreon. Why don't you It's five
Speaker 1: dollars a month and it gets you to bonus episodes
Speaker 1: every single month, plus access to the entire back catalog
Speaker 1: you love to see it, and then you can get
Speaker 1: our merch on t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast,
Speaker 1: and we also have masks if you need a mask,
Speaker 1: which you do because you're a good person, aren't you,
Speaker 1: see and find out there. Yes, and uh, I think
Speaker 1: this episode we've all been saved, so that's safe. We
Speaker 1: saved exclamation point. Let's change it to the back dol cast.
Speaker 1: The back cast by