1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,440
Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast am on

2
00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,080
Speaker 1: iHeart radio. Kings and queens of that era are did

3
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:13,240
Speaker 1: they get arret readings? No, I think of the early

4
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:19,000
Speaker 1: era it was it was more um, it was more

5
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:24,360
Speaker 1: for the kind of the gift in the artwork, in

6
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:32,240
Speaker 1: the they were. It was the noble people um uh

7
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,720
Speaker 1: enjoyed the you know, in a way there's they interpreted

8
00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:42,320
Speaker 1: it through uh nobility and kind of the themes of

9
00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,280
Speaker 1: their of their time. They didn't really understand much about

10
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:54,880
Speaker 1: the metaphysical side of tarot. That came later when it

11
00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,880
Speaker 1: when it when it moved to France, and the more

12
00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:07,600
Speaker 1: the magicians and metaphysicians started discovering that the symbols really

13
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,680
Speaker 1: were connected to a lot of the ancient mystery schools

14
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 1: and metaphysical sorts of teachings, and then it became more

15
00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:23,800
Speaker 1: interested interesting to the occult and spiritual types of people

16
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: and and like that. So carol didn't really take off

17
00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:35,160
Speaker 1: as a givunatory tool, I believe until about the eighteenth century.

18
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,840
Speaker 1: Was it ever used like a parlor game where you know,

19
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 1: in those days they didn't have radio and television. Yeah,

20
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,600
Speaker 1: I believe, I believe so I believe it was used

21
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,720
Speaker 1: as more of a parlor game or a collectible sort

22
00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:56,000
Speaker 1: of thing, you know, these gilded decks. They'd hire some

23
00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 1: of the finest artists in like Milan and uh in

24
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 1: various centers to produce these these beau beautiful deck of cards. Um,

25
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 1: and they may have they may have played games with them.

26
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,040
Speaker 1: I'm not really all that knowledgeable about the early history

27
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,640
Speaker 1: of that period with tarow, but it was not really

28
00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:25,359
Speaker 1: used for divination until several centuries later. Did they have

29
00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,120
Speaker 1: special readers of the tarot? I mean, did you have

30
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,080
Speaker 1: to be specially trained in those days? I guess you

31
00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:38,720
Speaker 1: do now. Well, Um, I think all of the the

32
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,560
Speaker 1: tarot readers, etc. You know, it was. It was believed

33
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,480
Speaker 1: that the Gypsies brought the taro to Europe, but that's

34
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:52,920
Speaker 1: been uh debunked that theory. The the Gypsies may have

35
00:02:53,400 --> 00:03:00,840
Speaker 1: been reading standard playing cards early, I believe, but I

36
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:06,560
Speaker 1: don't think the Gypsies actually started using tara until the

37
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:13,640
Speaker 1: early twentieth century, is from what I understand. But yeah,

38
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,359
Speaker 1: I mean, the more interesting part of it is that

39
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,959
Speaker 1: no one knows exactly who the first designers were. And

40
00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:31,880
Speaker 1: I have my own theories about that, so there's you know,

41
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 1: some people say it came from the ancient Egyptians, or

42
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:44,760
Speaker 1: some people say it came from the Arabs. Some believe

43
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,920
Speaker 1: it came all the way from China or India. M

44
00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of competing theories about that, but I

45
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: don't think that question has been settled yet. How about

46
00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 1: the church, What did the church ever say about tara

47
00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,640
Speaker 1: in those days? That's interesting because, um, you know, people

48
00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,600
Speaker 1: kind of wrongly, as I understand, it, believed that the

49
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,240
Speaker 1: Church m outlawed the use of taro, but that that's

50
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,480
Speaker 1: not true. They did, they did sanction against playing cards

51
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,120
Speaker 1: and gambling, but that I don't believe that the tarot.

52
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,599
Speaker 1: You know, when the taro first appeared in Renaissance Italy. Um,

53
00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:32,320
Speaker 1: I don't believe there there was any injunction against taro

54
00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,560
Speaker 1: from what I've read in tarot history. Has taro ever

55
00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,560
Speaker 1: been looked at art as part of witchcraft or anything

56
00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 1: like that? It has? What is it? Yeah? And and

57
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,760
Speaker 1: and there are plenty of people today that that use

58
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 1: it for um wicker or witchcraft or that sort of thing.

59
00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,600
Speaker 1: That's not my particular interest. But as a matter of fact,

60
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:04,839
Speaker 1: I think currently they're this kind of resurgence of some

61
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,640
Speaker 1: you know, there's it's a very wide community. There's people

62
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,120
Speaker 1: that you know, you you in the taro world. It's

63
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,680
Speaker 1: comprised of you know, artists and spiritual people and then

64
00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:22,120
Speaker 1: metaphysics and occultists and of you know, wiccans and witches

65
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 1: and um. Now I'm a psychologist, as you know, Georgia,

66
00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,880
Speaker 1: and so I tend to view use the taro for

67
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:38,640
Speaker 1: its symbolism and as a symbolic tool, much like dream

68
00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:43,039
Speaker 1: work and UM. I think that the taro is very

69
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:50,800
Speaker 1: rich in UM psychological UH imagery and UH can be

70
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,720
Speaker 1: used to help a person pull out a lot of

71
00:05:54,560 --> 00:06:01,800
Speaker 1: repressed material as well as open up new possibility or

72
00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:08,000
Speaker 1: have visual markers that describe what they're feeling that words

73
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:13,800
Speaker 1: can't really capture correctly. So there are many different approaches

74
00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:18,560
Speaker 1: to the tarot and is. It's hard to lump it

75
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 1: in any single school. You are one of the most

76
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,640
Speaker 1: authoritative persons with the Terrell. How did you get involved

77
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,760
Speaker 1: with it in the first first place, believe it or not?

78
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 1: In graduate school really, but I went to a very alternate,

79
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 1: very interesting I went to the in San Francisco. I

80
00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,839
Speaker 1: went to the California Institute of Asian Studies that was

81
00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,359
Speaker 1: the school before it's changed and grew into the California

82
00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,560
Speaker 1: sort of Integral Studies, which maybe some people are more

83
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,799
Speaker 1: familiar with, But it was kind of an East West

84
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:59,880
Speaker 1: graduate school where people came to study, you know, Eastern

85
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:06,960
Speaker 1: spirituality and religion as well as Western psychology, transpersonal psychology,

86
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,800
Speaker 1: and Unian psychology. And I took a weekend seminar by

87
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:17,200
Speaker 1: actually a scholar of Indian philosophy who also happened to

88
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,200
Speaker 1: be very interested in the tarot. I took a weekend

89
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 1: workshop with her, and it was fabulous, and I thought

90
00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,720
Speaker 1: it was so interesting and it had so much potential

91
00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:32,480
Speaker 1: as a psychological instrument that I ended up writing my

92
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:38,960
Speaker 1: doctoral dissertation on the use of Tarot cards in psychotherapy

93
00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,160
Speaker 1: or how that might be approached in many different ways,

94
00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 1: by comparing tarot readings to dream interpretations and then psychological

95
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,200
Speaker 1: projective testing to see if the tarot cards could actually

96
00:07:54,200 --> 00:08:00,240
Speaker 1: be as effective as some of these other tools that psychologists,

97
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 1: the projective tests and dream analysis, and found that in

98
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:12,160
Speaker 1: many areas, the tarot was just as effective, if not

99
00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 1: more effective, but the difference being the tarot comes magically

100
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:24,720
Speaker 1: the taro comes from random selection and and somehow by

101
00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 1: just selecting cards in the procedure of reading, one is

102
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:37,200
Speaker 1: able to pull out as much relevant psychological information as

103
00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,800
Speaker 1: they might from a test, which is asking the person

104
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,320
Speaker 1: or at least revealing the person's revealing through their dreams

105
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 1: their experience is remarkable. It is really a tool that's

106
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:57,559
Speaker 1: based totally on synchronicity is actually as effective as some

107
00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,319
Speaker 1: of these other psychological tools. So that really interested me

108
00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,240
Speaker 1: in it. Now, when we take calls next hour art

109
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,440
Speaker 1: and you're going to pull a card for are you

110
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:12,160
Speaker 1: going to pull one card or three? No? Three? Three cards? Okay?

111
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,520
Speaker 1: Which is what you've always done, right whatever the ktrs

112
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,520
Speaker 1: bread I call yeah, absolutely in those days, when and

113
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,560
Speaker 1: when you pull the three cards, do you need all

114
00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:28,600
Speaker 1: three together or are each one separate? In terms of

115
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,000
Speaker 1: what the reading is, well, the three positions the first

116
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,160
Speaker 1: card will represent whatever they ask. Whatever the question you

117
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,040
Speaker 1: can ask me about you know shadow people and uh,

118
00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,040
Speaker 1: you know the dark state, or you can ask me

119
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: about am I going to get the job next week?

120
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,839
Speaker 1: Or should I leave my husband? Doesn't matter whatever question

121
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,600
Speaker 1: you ask, um I will the first position will say

122
00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,679
Speaker 1: the way it appears the second position will say what's

123
00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,640
Speaker 1: really going on? And the position will say what needs

124
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,120
Speaker 1: to come out now or what you need to attend

125
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,560
Speaker 1: to now? And I'll just read the cards, you know,

126
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,840
Speaker 1: and it's always pretty interesting what comes out. I think,

127
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,200
Speaker 1: how accurate are the Terot cards when combined with a reading?

128
00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,560
Speaker 1: What would you say? What I would say is one

129
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:28,959
Speaker 1: hundred percent, but with several caveats. One the first important

130
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,920
Speaker 1: thing is the person has to be sincere, because the

131
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,719
Speaker 1: person is like, not a yank in my chain, or

132
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,199
Speaker 1: are just thinking it's the silly Pollard game, right, the

133
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,560
Speaker 1: cards won't work. The second point that I say is

134
00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:50,320
Speaker 1: one hundred accurate but accurate. But accurate is a misnomer.

135
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,800
Speaker 1: Accurate doesn't mean anything accurate compared to what compared to

136
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 1: a person's own opinion about what's going on. The better

137
00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 1: word than accurate is relevant. And there I would say

138
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:10,400
Speaker 1: on relevant because it has to be, because we all

139
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,920
Speaker 1: our minds are nothing more than walking Tarot decks, and

140
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:21,320
Speaker 1: we just get to look at several little parts in

141
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:26,199
Speaker 1: any reading, and they're always relevant because the Tarot is us.

142
00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:28,640
Speaker 1: The Tarot is a part of us, and we get

143
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,240
Speaker 1: to look through a window and look at certain parts

144
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 1: of us. And that's always relevant. Now, where is the

145
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,199
Speaker 1: strength of the tarrot? Was it the reader or the

146
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,440
Speaker 1: personnel for a person's with you? Do they pull those cards? Yes?

147
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,760
Speaker 1: They do guide them into selection, even over the phone.

148
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,000
Speaker 1: If people want to call me to set up an

149
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: appointment with me, I have a method of where a

150
00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,720
Speaker 1: person will actually select it through me. I have a

151
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 1: way that they can do it guiding my hand. We

152
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,520
Speaker 1: won't have time for that tonight. I will just um,

153
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,599
Speaker 1: you just do it instincts okay. And then nowadays with zoom,

154
00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,320
Speaker 1: what if they have a tarot deck, you're on the

155
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,480
Speaker 1: other end, and they have their cards, and you tell

156
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,760
Speaker 1: them to pick three cards and they do and show

157
00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,319
Speaker 1: them to you. I do it all the time. That

158
00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 1: works that way, doesn't it? Oh? Of course? Of course.

159
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 1: Ultimately the secret is George, it doesn't matter. It's going

160
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 1: to work anyway you want to do it, and it's

161
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 1: I just trust it and I m you'll say, but

162
00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,360
Speaker 1: I think it's valuable if the person does select their

163
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: own cards rather than the reader, only insofar as they

164
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 1: have more they get a more investment in the answer

165
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:56,400
Speaker 1: because they feel that they're more involved with the process.

166
00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,360
Speaker 1: And that's a good thing. But if they empower the reader,

167
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,760
Speaker 1: or say myself tonight, UM that I am. You know,

168
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,400
Speaker 1: I'm just totally going to trust my intuition and just

169
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,720
Speaker 1: go to the card that my hand seems to want

170
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,800
Speaker 1: to go to. Um, it's about the same thing. It

171
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't really matter. Why do the terol cards

172
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,600
Speaker 1: have the amount of cards they have on the deck. Well,

173
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,439
Speaker 1: this is a big question, one that my last book

174
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 1: on the subject is has debated. Um. Well, we have

175
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,200
Speaker 1: the minor arconna, you know, the to king and those

176
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,559
Speaker 1: are numbered you know, one, two, three, four, five, etc.

177
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,719
Speaker 1: But the courts, but the trumps, or let me say,

178
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,960
Speaker 1: the higher keys, um the number twenty two? Um? I

179
00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,640
Speaker 1: challenge that. And I believe there should be twenty seven cards,

180
00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,440
Speaker 1: not twenty two, because I believe if you really penetrate

181
00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:59,680
Speaker 1: the inner metallogic of the major arcana, you'll see that

182
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:05,520
Speaker 1: it makes the most sense with three rows of nine.

183
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,319
Speaker 1: And when you lay it out, and I call that

184
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 1: the matrix, when you lay it out in that matrix,

185
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 1: you'll see that there's an incredible interconnection between each of

186
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,760
Speaker 1: those rows to tell a story or a pathway. There's

187
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,240
Speaker 1: nine different pathways in the major arcona that is not

188
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 1: as obvious in the current dispensation as we say, where

189
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,680
Speaker 1: there's only twenty two cards and the third row is short.

190
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,480
Speaker 1: Five cards in my deck Cairo, the nine paths which

191
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,480
Speaker 1: you've seen, I've read your cards with it in which

192
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:48,720
Speaker 1: well used tonight it will include the five new emerging

193
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:55,680
Speaker 1: archetypes that after three years of deep study and work

194
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:02,000
Speaker 1: on it, I believe are the missing tyro cards. Interesting

195
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:06,400
Speaker 1: take on, It's fascinating. It truly is remarkable. Listen to

196
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 1: more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one am

197
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 1: Eastern and go to Coast to Coast am dot com

198
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:13,280
Speaker 1: for more