WEBVTT - CHAPTER TWELVE: Dr. Amanda Baden On Adoption 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:03.840 Hey their listeners. For this bonus episode, we wanted to 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.600 reach out to an expert, someone who knows a thing 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.440 or two about what adoptees experience when they reach out 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.320 to their birth family, or what happens when someone finds 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.319 out they're adopted later in life, like Steve Patterson. Then 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:20.760 our producer Kate Mischkin taught with doctor Amanda Baten, a 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:23.720 licensed psychologist in New York City who's worked with adoptees, 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:27.360 adoptive families, and has adopted ourself. We were lucky to 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:32.960 sit down with them. 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:39.320 This is chapter twelve, Doctor Amanda Beten on adoption. Just 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:41.080 to start out, would you mind telling us who you 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:42.479 are and what kind of work you do. 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.559 My name's Amanda Beten. I'm a licensed psychologist in New 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:51.440 York City, and I'm also a professor at Montclair State University, 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.360 where I also serve as the doctoral program director. At 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:59.080 Montclair State, we train future counselors, and in the doctoral 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.400 program we train counselor educators, those who are going to 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:06.080 be professors. Training future counselors, it's very matter. And then 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:08.679 in my practice, I have a clinical practice in New 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:13.520 York where I work with primarily adult adoptees and adoptive families. 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.560 I'm wondering if you're if you're open to telling me 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:19.040 a little bit about how your own experience has informed 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:19.880 your practice. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.760 I think you know, having grown up as a transracial 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:27.520 international adoptee myself, of course, I understand a lot of 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:30.280 the struggles. I know what they look like at various points. 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.240 I've been working with adoptees for over twenty five years. 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.120 I have a lot of stories, a lot of histories 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.600 that people have shared that some of which overlap with 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.880 mine and some which diverge completely. I try to make 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:47.280 sure that I have very good sense of what's my 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:51.600 history and what's theirs, not to confuse them, but I 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.680 definitely can see that there's a lot of shared experiences. 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:59.960 I shared history of how adoptees have an internal message 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.160 system that they might use to themselves about what it 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:06.800 means to be adopted. For kids and adolescents can be 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.040 hard to articulate, so some of what I do is 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:14.840 really helping them find words to explain their experience and 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.440 to normalize it, to recognize it. They weren't the only 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.520 ones who had that experience, and therefore it can be 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.760 very empowering to recognize like there's a real community out 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:26.760 there that can share some of this. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.760 I was wondering if just something we could start out with. 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.600 Is some reasons adoptees seek out therapy in general? 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.320 Oh sure, I think everyone is always looking to understand 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.680 themselves a little bit better, looking for support when things 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.400 might get a little challenging or tough. The adults that 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.560 I see primarily have come for various reasons. Sometimes it's 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.960 the traditional reasons we understand is different kinds of mood 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.560 disorders like depression or anxiety, But a lot of it's 0:02:55.560 --> 0:03:00.920 about identity. Understanding themselves is people of color understanding themselves 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:07.120 as adopted people. Many of them have been in therapy 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:12.240 with other clinicians who don't have adoption backgrounds, and so 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:16.239 in many of those cases, they might say that person 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.880 was supportive and kind, but maybe didn't quite understand the 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:24.200 nuances of adoption, or they felt they had to teach 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.880 them so much that it wasn't as helpful as they 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.040 wanted it to be. And more recently, sometimes it's also 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:35.640 about connections with you know, relationship issues, romantic kinds of relationships, 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:40.600 friendships and relationships with adoptive family members and birth family searches. 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.600 Those are all different reasons that people might seek therapy. 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:46.320 And so I just want to clarify, for the most part, 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:49.080 you're talking to folks who have been adopted. You're not 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.400 necessarily talking to the adoptive families. 0:03:51.760 --> 0:03:54.720 I do work with some adoptive families, so whenever I'm 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.440 working with adult adoptees, at times we'll find it might 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.760 be very useful for them to have session where they 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.760 bring in their parents. We're working on them developing agency 0:04:05.000 --> 0:04:07.400 to be able to express what they want, and me 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:12.240 to serve in the role of helping improve communication, help 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:17.599 the adopted person advocate for themselves, help interpret some of 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.960 the things that the parents may struggle to understand because 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:22.960 they didn't live it in the same way. 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.279 What's a big misconception about adoption. 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.039 I think the most common misconception is that people think 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:36.360 they understand what adoption is because they've heard stories and 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.400 seen movies. Almost all Disney movies have an adoption theme 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:44.520 of some sort. So these arcs tell these stories I 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.680 think that can problematize adoption and also make it seem 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.720 so rainbows and flowers and stars like it's so wonderful 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.280 all the time. And the fact is adoptions complex and 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.400 the issues are complex. So a lot of times I 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.800 think people think if a child's been adopted, that they're lucky, 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:06.560 that they should be grateful, that the adoptive parents have 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:10.680 done a wonderful thing, that they're do gooders, and look 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.880 what a wonderful life they've been given. Those kinds of 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:18.040 things I think come into play a lot because it 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:22.080 calls into question motives for adopting. It calls into question 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.360 things like how an adoptee's supposed to process and think 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:30.680 about their experience. That can make it hard, because if 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.479 they have this message that they should never complain and 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.120 never be unhappy and never grieve anything that's related to 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.839 their adoption, then that is going to become a big 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.680 barrier in the relationship they have with their families and 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.520 in their own processing and navigating of the feelings that 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:49.239 come with adoption. 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.200 I want to travel back in time a little bit, 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:54.440 to the nineteen seventies. That's kind of where the sort 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.240 that we're focused on takes place. In our story. This 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.359 man didn't know that he was adopted to very late 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.000 in life. He stumbled upon a Manila envelope with the 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.839 name he was assigned at birth, but really didn't ask 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:12.039 any further questions, and finally, when his adoptive father died 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.839 in twenty nineteen, he started kind of unpacking. So I 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.320 was wondering, you know, back in the seventies, how common 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.120 was that for adopted children to not be told that 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.279 they were adopted and to have kept it a secret. 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.400 I wish I could tell you explicitly, because again, we 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.440 don't have numbers on these kinds of things. We would 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:34.080 not be able to estimate who's telling and who's not telling. 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.040 I can say, though, that it still. 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.400 Happens, and why do you think that happens. 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.080 I think that there's a lot of answers to that, 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:46.520 and they're somewhat individual to the parent to some degree. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.080 But I think the standard answers people give are that 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:54.680 they want the adopted person to understand it fully, they 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.160 don't know when a good time is to tell them. 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.760 They think it will upset them and make them feel 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:04.359 less part of the family. These are all kind of 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.400 common answers, but I also think that there's a lot 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:13.080 of fear involved, a fear that the child may not 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.360 feel part of the family. They may have questions, they 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.840 may want to reach out and find birth family. There's 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:23.800 an attempt to if you pretend that we're all biologically related, 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.800 then we'll all pretend and everything will be the same. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.119 I think that some folks might frame it as having 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.520 protected the child, when we know that's not always the 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:42.360 sole motivator or necessarily an accurate explanation. I've actually worked 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:47.040 with a person once who had suspected for many years 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.400 that they were adopted and had been looking into this 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.000 for years, and there had been denials and denials and 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:58.320 denials from the adoptive parents, and the person finally confronted 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:00.320 the parent and said, look, I'm about to do this 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.800 DNA test. It's going to come out, so here's your 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:05.960 chance to tell me. And this this person was in 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:09.360 their fifties at the time. The adoptive parents still refused, 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:14.320 and of course the DNA test proved it, and they 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.840 finally had to have the conversation. Ultimately, I don't know 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.520 if they actually had a logical stream of thought around 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.480 how this might play out or not, but they had 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.480 been locked into this narrative for over fifty years. 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.360 I canmuchure it's hard to break that after fifty years 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:34.720 telling the same story based on your experience and your expertise, 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:36.760 when is a good time to tell a kid. 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.040 That's a great question. And we have a lot of 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:42.520 colleagues who do adoption research as well, and one of 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.439 them who's quite well known in the field, David Brezinski, 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:49.640 had sent two independent researchers to me to say, hey, 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.719 maybe Amanda will do this study with you, because they 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:57.120 were both what they called late discovery adoptees LDAs, and 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.520 so they came to me with this idea and I 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:04.040 was entruy. So what we did was we did a 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:09.160 survey to look at the impact of when you found 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:13.720 out you were adopted, and the results were very compelling. 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.280 What we basically found out was that if an adopted 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.559 person has a memory of finding out they were adopted, 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:25.560 then that's already a little late for them. They've already 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:30.439 experienced some distress. So we looked at whether distress, satisfaction 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:35.160 with life, and coping mechanisms how they all impacted this. 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.240 But if you account for the coping mechanisms that people have, 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:42.880 adults have more coping mechanisms, that the impact of finding 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:47.360 out that you're adopted after the age of three gradually increases. 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:53.240 The older you get, the more distress. So what it 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:58.800 meant to me was that memory really sits in people's minds. 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.640 In my role as a faculty member, I teach a 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:06.600 course on multicultural counseling, and when I do bring in 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.920 adoption into the course, I do a little quiz for 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.800 them and I ask them at what age do they 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.200 think a child should be told they're adopted. What's fascinated 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.959 me about it is that there was this range. There's 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.559 always a few students who say immediately at birth, as 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:28.119 soon as you can, but there's far more who say five, eight, fifteen, 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:33.440 eighteen or never, which really surprised me. And then my 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.600 explanation my response to them would be, so I don't 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.559 think a child needs to understand all of the complexity 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:42.959 of adoption to understand that they were born in someone 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:48.160 else's body and that there's another family out there. And 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:53.680 if you wait until they're three, five, ten, how many 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.240 times have you had to lie to your child? Most 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.560 of the LDAs they often talk about the awareness that 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.480 they'd been betrayed and lied to. It's much harder to 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.760 keep these secrets, and we know secrets have a way 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:12.280 of coming out often, so we try and help families 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:16.360 recognize that if you can't be honest with your child 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.040 about their history, you're going to create wedges from the 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.840 very beginning that's going to make it hard to have 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.160 just an honest relationship with them. 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.520 Okay, So, in general, how do late discovery adoptees differ 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:31.720 from other adoptees. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.840 Well, I think the difference is more in they have 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:39.120 a late start. One of the things we struggled with 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:43.560 when designing the study was how we wanted to define late, 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.920 and our study finding showed that, yeah, four is already 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:51.360 a little late. So I think that the difference will 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:54.319 depend to some degree on when they find out. Because 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.160 the person that you're doing this podcast about, he's just 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.840 now identifying as an adopted person and now just diving 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.120 into that world and has maybe changing all the things 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:09.680 he's had to think about who he was and where 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:15.280 he came from. Whereas adoptees who've known forever have had 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.640 a head start in that. That doesn't mean they've always 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.720 gotten there or done the work or had effective progress 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.040 with it, but they've had the opportunities in some cases 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:30.120 to join adoption communities, to be with other adopted people 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.880 to start incorporating that into their identity from a very 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.480 early age. And the challenge is not being able to 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:43.040 incorporate that into your identity means it may feel like 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.840 your identity has to alter drastically from what you thought 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.120 it was. And knowing that there's this other family out 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:56.079 there who may or may not have ever wanted to 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.120 reconnect or something like that can throw people into a 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:00.600 tail spin. 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.000 In your experience, how typical is it for an adopt 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.600 you to discover that they were adopted, you know, finding 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.959 paperwork or some other way, but to not raise it 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.760 with their adoptive parents. 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.440 I think that there's definitely communication problems in all families, 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.640 and I think that some folks are more willing to 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:29.080 have those challenging and difficult conversations than others. Someone who 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:34.160 has not had a practice of that and maybe more unwilling. 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:34.199 To do it. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:36.880 And sometimes people want to close the door on something 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:38.319 that doesn't fit into their narrative. 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.920 Yeah, two people in this story is that they knew 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:43.240 and they just didn't want to rock the boat. They 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:47.600 didn't want to hurt their adoptive parents' feelings. 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.360 That goes with the grateful narrative too. Who am I 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.880 to question and challenge them? I don't want to rock 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.280 the boat. Maybe I don't want to deal with it either, 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:02.800 or maybe I like pretending because bringing that up is 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.320 going to change a lot, and it's going to force 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:10.280 some change and a lot of times, as humans, we 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:15.720 avoid discomfort, we avoid change, and that's where denial comes 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:17.080 into play a lot. 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.920 So I'm wondering if that's something we would recommend. Seeking 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:21.480 out records and finding a birth family. 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:26.440 Great question. I never say that one answer fits for everyone. 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.080 Back in the seventies and eighties, even the nineties, the 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:36.400 prevailing perspective was that any adopted person who wanted to 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.880 find their birth parents probably was dysfunctional in some way, 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:47.360 unhappy with their families, had some issues. Now the tables 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:52.320 have turned completely and the perspective is if you don't 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.640 want to find your birth families, then you must be 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.880 in denial or something like that. So there's a lot 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.320 of pressure either way. Adoptees are all pathologize and they 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.000 can't win completely. But I don't think there's a blanket 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.480 yes or no. I think the individual needs to really 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.040 think about what they want from that, whether they're ready 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:16.080 for it. I highly recommend therapy counseling for someone who's 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:20.880 considering it, because I've worked with lots of adoptees who 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.280 went in with this mission to do the detective work 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.640 and find the birth family and then had no idea 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:29.720 what they wanted to do with that relationship or how 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.440 to approach it, and it became challenging and painful for 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.680 both sides because here the birth family thinks, oh, they 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:39.960 want to know me and want to connect, but they're 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.880 withdrawing and they're withholding, and it's very confusing. The communication 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:49.000 is challenging. So anyone who's an LDA would benefit from 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.840 finding community, and if they're able to and willing to 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.920 get some therapy from someone who understands this experience, it 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:01.880 can be very beneficial to them. 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.080 So once you go on that journey and you find 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.520 your birth mother and she can't answer all your questions, 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.600 I wonder how that might impact your sense of self. 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.280 I think that you know, when you do find a 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.120 birth family member, you're never going to have all your 0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:22.680 questions answered. You know, even when you're born to your parents, 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.240 they can't answer everything. There's some mystery that's always going 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.720 to be involved. But the sense of self is sometimes 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:35.000 how we make a sense of what we're hearing. Sometimes 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:40.840 adoptees make their interpretation of the relinquishment is about them. 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.000 They think it's some deficit they have or some punishment 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.480 for themselves, when in fact, most relinquishments are about the 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:53.880 problems that the birth parents are having. Yeah, and these 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.280 are adult problems. When you go into a union, it's 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.040 going to be hard because there are back and white answers. 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.520 And I wonder if we can talk about the adoptive 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:06.399 parents a little bit. I can imagine might be a 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.320 challenging time for an adoptive parent when their child is 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.280 seeking out the birth parents and siblings they never knew 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.919 they had. I'm wondering what kind of feelings this might 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.120 bring up for adoptive parents. 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:21.760 I'm guessing they would feel frustrated that they had to 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.960 reveal the truth, maybe they never intended to, or maybe 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.880 they feel some shame about it. I think a lot 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.639 of adoptive parents who keep these secrets don't come and 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.160 present for therapy. They may not be willing to confront 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:39.320 what's happening. One of the reasons that they may have 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:43.399 decided to keep this secret has been their own insecurity 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:48.640 about their status as parents, as rightful parents, as true parents, 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.000 and so I would guess that it would raise a 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.760 lot of those issues again for them. I've heard many 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.280 adoptive parents say they didn't want to share their child, 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.040 they want to erase the idea that birth parents even exist, 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.720 And in those cases we could say with fair certainty 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.959 that those adoptive parents have not worked through their own 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.400 issues around deciding to adopt. 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.159 What suggestions might you have for someone who wants to 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.439 find the courage to say they'd like to get to 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:27.320 know their birth family, but doesn't necessarily want to disappoint 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.360 their adoptive parents or hurt someone's feelings. 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.200 I'd say that therapy can be a good start, because 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:39.160 sometimes with the work of a solid therapist, they can 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.560 help them find the words, and sometimes the therapists can 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:47.679 even help navigate that discussion. Whenever you come against something 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:52.359 that feels like a barrier, what often helps is to 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:55.720 empathize with the other perspective and then try and inform 0:18:55.760 --> 0:19:01.679 that perspective. So what I might suggest someone do is 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:07.400 empathize with their parents' fears and their anxieties and insecurities, 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:11.840 because they may feel that they're going to lose their child, 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.879 or something's going to shift and change for the worse 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.560 without recognizing that it often can shift for the better 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.960 if they can stay open and engaged in loving about it. 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.000 There's a lot of documentaries that exist, a lot of 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:32.160 movies that exist that can be a great conversation starters, 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.480 where then you can talk about this process and how 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:39.080 these parents, Why were those parents so engaged in this search? 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:40.959 How were they able to make sense that you know, 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:45.720 that can give that opportunity to have some of those 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.280 discussions that they may struggle bringing up themselves. 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.960 In that vein. What are some things that people within 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.560 the orbit of the adoptee, you know, everyone in their life, 0:19:56.600 --> 0:19:59.200 what can they do to help the adoptee and support them. 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.360 I think that it can be helpful to listen, certainly 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:08.480 without a ton of advice giving. I think the advice 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:15.920 giving can often be well meaning, but can sometimes reinforce 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.400 a lot of the stereotypes about adoption, and a lot 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:24.640 of advice giving often recreates some of the microaggressions that exist. 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:28.440 Like for example, one of the adoption microaggressions be named 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.679 was the phantom birth parents, and that's this idea of 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.840 trying to make them disappear, where the birth parents are 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.359 supposed to go off and not think about this. Again, 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.960 if everyone just does their role, then everything will be fine. 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.879 And it doesn't really work that way, And there's a 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:48.679 lot of adult adoptee communities out there that can be supportive. 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:53.159 I would say for this person, the big challenge a 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:56.840 lot of times is for them not to get stuck 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:01.479 in their anger and to keep moving through it and 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:03.760 to get the support to move through it. Because what 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:07.840 we see is someone who's struggling with making sense of 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:10.359 their identity or something getting stuck in that and not 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:11.879 making any movement. 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:16.199 Then yeah, I can definitely see that there's something you 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.680 wish people knew about adoption that you've gleaned from your work. 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.720 I guess I would say I wish that people would 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.719 recognize that adoptees aren't all damaged, that we're not all 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:33.679 the same, that there's just as much diversity among us 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:38.240 as there is in any other group, and that it's 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.439 not a sexy narrative to put in every movie, in 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.760 every book, even though it seems to be a very 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:48.160 compelling one to put in every time I'm watching a show. 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:51.920 I'm like, op, yep, there's another one. And so the 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.840 point where my family lasts because we see you any 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.960 show that's not at all connected to an adoption story, 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.320 that narrative still makes its way in as a quick 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:06.640 and dirty way to explain why someone would turn this 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:07.640 way or turn that. 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.960 Way, or you know, yeah, as a narrator to face 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:11.720 in some sort of way. 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.240 It really is, and I guess I wish if they're 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:19.440 going to use that that they do it with real 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:24.120 education about it and with real caution, because it does 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:27.120 contribute to the stereotypes and the stigma. 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:29.880 Doctor Rianton, thank you so much for taking the time 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:31.640 to talk to me. This is this is great, no. 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:32.920 Problem, glad to be here. 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.040 Thank you so much to doctor Amanda Baden for taking 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:40.879 the time to share insight. We'll have some links to 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:43.800 her work in the episode description. Her website is doctor 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:50.040 Amandabaden dot com. Hello, John Doe has and original productions 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:53.919 by Revelations Entertainment in association with First and Life Productions. 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.160 From Revelation. Our executive producers are Morgan Freeman and James 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:02.119 Younger From First to Life. Lindsay Moreno is the executive 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.439 producer our producing partner is neo on Home Media. It 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.320 was written and produced by Kate Michigan. Our editor is 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:11.280 Katherine Saint Louis. She is also nei on Home Media's 0:23:11.280 --> 0:23:15.560 executive editor. Our executive producer is Sherah Morris. Our development 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:20.560 producer is Ian Lindsay. Our associate producer is Rufaro Faith Maser. 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:24.240 Rural sound design and mixing by Scott Summerville. Theme and 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:27.919 original music composed by Jesse Pearlstein. Additional music came from 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:31.199 Epidemic Sound in Blue Dot Sessions. Frendall Faulton is our 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:35.159 fact checker. Our production manager is Samantha Allison from my 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:39.040 Heart Media. Dylan Fagan as our executive producer. Special thanks 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:41.920 to Adelia Ruben at ne On Hume and Carrie Lieberman 0:23:42.040 --> 0:23:45.959 and Will Pearson at iHeartMedia. I'm Todd Matthews. You can 0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.800 learn more about name us at NamUs dot com. The 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:51.640 number for the National Center for Missing Exploited Children's Call 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:54.560 Center is one eight hundred the loss That's one eight 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:59.080 hundred eight four three five six seven eight. The National 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:02.000 Sexual Assault hot Line from the Rate Abuse and Incest 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.880 National Network is one one hundred sixty five six four 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:08.760 six seventy three. Okay, guys, this is the end of 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:11.560 the show. If you didn't like it and don't do anything. 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:13.639 But if you did like it, you make sure that 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.000 your rate and review the show. It helps more people 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:18.520 to find it and hear this wonderful story. Thanks again 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:19.040 for listening.