1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hey their listeners. For this bonus episode, we wanted to 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: reach out to an expert, someone who knows a thing 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: or two about what adoptees experience when they reach out 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: to their birth family, or what happens when someone finds 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,319 Speaker 1: out they're adopted later in life, like Steve Patterson. Then 6 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: our producer Kate Mischkin taught with doctor Amanda Baten, a 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in New York City who's worked with adoptees, 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: adoptive families, and has adopted ourself. We were lucky to 9 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: sit down with them. 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: This is chapter twelve, Doctor Amanda Beten on adoption. Just 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: to start out, would you mind telling us who you 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 2: are and what kind of work you do. 13 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 3: My name's Amanda Beten. I'm a licensed psychologist in New 14 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 3: York City, and I'm also a professor at Montclair State University, 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 3: where I also serve as the doctoral program director. At 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 3: Montclair State, we train future counselors, and in the doctoral 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 3: program we train counselor educators, those who are going to 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 3: be professors. Training future counselors, it's very matter. And then 19 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 3: in my practice, I have a clinical practice in New 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 3: York where I work with primarily adult adoptees and adoptive families. 21 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you're if you're open to telling me 22 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 2: a little bit about how your own experience has informed 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: your practice. 24 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 3: I think you know, having grown up as a transracial 25 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 3: international adoptee myself, of course, I understand a lot of 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 3: the struggles. I know what they look like at various points. 27 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 3: I've been working with adoptees for over twenty five years. 28 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 3: I have a lot of stories, a lot of histories 29 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 3: that people have shared that some of which overlap with 30 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 3: mine and some which diverge completely. I try to make 31 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: sure that I have very good sense of what's my 32 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: history and what's theirs, not to confuse them, but I 33 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 3: definitely can see that there's a lot of shared experiences. 34 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 3: I shared history of how adoptees have an internal message 35 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: system that they might use to themselves about what it 36 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 3: means to be adopted. For kids and adolescents can be 37 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 3: hard to articulate, so some of what I do is 38 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 3: really helping them find words to explain their experience and 39 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 3: to normalize it, to recognize it. They weren't the only 40 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 3: ones who had that experience, and therefore it can be 41 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: very empowering to recognize like there's a real community out 42 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: there that can share some of this. 43 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: I was wondering if just something we could start out with. 44 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: Is some reasons adoptees seek out therapy in general? 45 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 3: Oh sure, I think everyone is always looking to understand 46 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 3: themselves a little bit better, looking for support when things 47 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 3: might get a little challenging or tough. The adults that 48 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 3: I see primarily have come for various reasons. Sometimes it's 49 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 3: the traditional reasons we understand is different kinds of mood 50 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 3: disorders like depression or anxiety, But a lot of it's 51 00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 3: about identity. Understanding themselves is people of color understanding themselves 52 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 3: as adopted people. Many of them have been in therapy 53 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 3: with other clinicians who don't have adoption backgrounds, and so 54 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 3: in many of those cases, they might say that person 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: was supportive and kind, but maybe didn't quite understand the 56 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: nuances of adoption, or they felt they had to teach 57 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 3: them so much that it wasn't as helpful as they 58 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: wanted it to be. And more recently, sometimes it's also 59 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 3: about connections with you know, relationship issues, romantic kinds of relationships, 60 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 3: friendships and relationships with adoptive family members and birth family searches. 61 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: Those are all different reasons that people might seek therapy. 62 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: And so I just want to clarify, for the most part, 63 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: you're talking to folks who have been adopted. You're not 64 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: necessarily talking to the adoptive families. 65 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: I do work with some adoptive families, so whenever I'm 66 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 3: working with adult adoptees, at times we'll find it might 67 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 3: be very useful for them to have session where they 68 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: bring in their parents. We're working on them developing agency 69 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: to be able to express what they want, and me 70 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: to serve in the role of helping improve communication, help 71 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 3: the adopted person advocate for themselves, help interpret some of 72 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 3: the things that the parents may struggle to understand because 73 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 3: they didn't live it in the same way. 74 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: What's a big misconception about adoption. 75 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 3: I think the most common misconception is that people think 76 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 3: they understand what adoption is because they've heard stories and 77 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 3: seen movies. Almost all Disney movies have an adoption theme 78 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 3: of some sort. So these arcs tell these stories I 79 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 3: think that can problematize adoption and also make it seem 80 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 3: so rainbows and flowers and stars like it's so wonderful 81 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 3: all the time. And the fact is adoptions complex and 82 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 3: the issues are complex. So a lot of times I 83 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 3: think people think if a child's been adopted, that they're lucky, 84 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 3: that they should be grateful, that the adoptive parents have 85 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 3: done a wonderful thing, that they're do gooders, and look 86 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: what a wonderful life they've been given. Those kinds of 87 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 3: things I think come into play a lot because it 88 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 3: calls into question motives for adopting. It calls into question 89 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 3: things like how an adoptee's supposed to process and think 90 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 3: about their experience. That can make it hard, because if 91 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 3: they have this message that they should never complain and 92 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: never be unhappy and never grieve anything that's related to 93 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 3: their adoption, then that is going to become a big 94 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 3: barrier in the relationship they have with their families and 95 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: in their own processing and navigating of the feelings that 96 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:49,239 Speaker 3: come with adoption. 97 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: I want to travel back in time a little bit, 98 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: to the nineteen seventies. That's kind of where the sort 99 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: that we're focused on takes place. In our story. This 100 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 2: man didn't know that he was adopted to very late 101 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: in life. He stumbled upon a Manila envelope with the 102 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: name he was assigned at birth, but really didn't ask 103 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: any further questions, and finally, when his adoptive father died 104 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, he started kind of unpacking. So I 105 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: was wondering, you know, back in the seventies, how common 106 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: was that for adopted children to not be told that 107 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 2: they were adopted and to have kept it a secret. 108 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: I wish I could tell you explicitly, because again, we 109 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: don't have numbers on these kinds of things. We would 110 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 3: not be able to estimate who's telling and who's not telling. 111 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 3: I can say, though, that it still. 112 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: Happens, and why do you think that happens. 113 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: I think that there's a lot of answers to that, 114 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: and they're somewhat individual to the parent to some degree. 115 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: But I think the standard answers people give are that 116 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: they want the adopted person to understand it fully, they 117 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 3: don't know when a good time is to tell them. 118 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 3: They think it will upset them and make them feel 119 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 3: less part of the family. These are all kind of 120 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 3: common answers, but I also think that there's a lot 121 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 3: of fear involved, a fear that the child may not 122 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 3: feel part of the family. They may have questions, they 123 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: may want to reach out and find birth family. There's 124 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 3: an attempt to if you pretend that we're all biologically related, 125 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 3: then we'll all pretend and everything will be the same. 126 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,119 Speaker 3: I think that some folks might frame it as having 127 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 3: protected the child, when we know that's not always the 128 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 3: sole motivator or necessarily an accurate explanation. I've actually worked 129 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 3: with a person once who had suspected for many years 130 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: that they were adopted and had been looking into this 131 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 3: for years, and there had been denials and denials and 132 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: denials from the adoptive parents, and the person finally confronted 133 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 3: the parent and said, look, I'm about to do this 134 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 3: DNA test. It's going to come out, so here's your 135 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 3: chance to tell me. And this this person was in 136 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 3: their fifties at the time. The adoptive parents still refused, 137 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 3: and of course the DNA test proved it, and they 138 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: finally had to have the conversation. Ultimately, I don't know 139 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: if they actually had a logical stream of thought around 140 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: how this might play out or not, but they had 141 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: been locked into this narrative for over fifty years. 142 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: I canmuchure it's hard to break that after fifty years 143 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: telling the same story based on your experience and your expertise, 144 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: when is a good time to tell a kid. 145 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 3: That's a great question. And we have a lot of 146 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: colleagues who do adoption research as well, and one of 147 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 3: them who's quite well known in the field, David Brezinski, 148 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 3: had sent two independent researchers to me to say, hey, 149 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 3: maybe Amanda will do this study with you, because they 150 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: were both what they called late discovery adoptees LDAs, and 151 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: so they came to me with this idea and I 152 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: was entruy. So what we did was we did a 153 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: survey to look at the impact of when you found 154 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: out you were adopted, and the results were very compelling. 155 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: What we basically found out was that if an adopted 156 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 3: person has a memory of finding out they were adopted, 157 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 3: then that's already a little late for them. They've already 158 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 3: experienced some distress. So we looked at whether distress, satisfaction 159 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 3: with life, and coping mechanisms how they all impacted this. 160 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: But if you account for the coping mechanisms that people have, 161 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 3: adults have more coping mechanisms, that the impact of finding 162 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 3: out that you're adopted after the age of three gradually increases. 163 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 3: The older you get, the more distress. So what it 164 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: meant to me was that memory really sits in people's minds. 165 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: In my role as a faculty member, I teach a 166 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 3: course on multicultural counseling, and when I do bring in 167 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 3: adoption into the course, I do a little quiz for 168 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 3: them and I ask them at what age do they 169 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 3: think a child should be told they're adopted. What's fascinated 170 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 3: me about it is that there was this range. There's 171 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 3: always a few students who say immediately at birth, as 172 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:28,119 Speaker 3: soon as you can, but there's far more who say five, eight, fifteen, 173 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 3: eighteen or never, which really surprised me. And then my 174 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 3: explanation my response to them would be, so I don't 175 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,559 Speaker 3: think a child needs to understand all of the complexity 176 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 3: of adoption to understand that they were born in someone 177 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 3: else's body and that there's another family out there. And 178 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 3: if you wait until they're three, five, ten, how many 179 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: times have you had to lie to your child? Most 180 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 3: of the LDAs they often talk about the awareness that 181 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: they'd been betrayed and lied to. It's much harder to 182 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 3: keep these secrets, and we know secrets have a way 183 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 3: of coming out often, so we try and help families 184 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: recognize that if you can't be honest with your child 185 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 3: about their history, you're going to create wedges from the 186 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 3: very beginning that's going to make it hard to have 187 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 3: just an honest relationship with them. 188 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 2: Okay, So, in general, how do late discovery adoptees differ 189 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: from other adoptees. 190 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 3: Well, I think the difference is more in they have 191 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 3: a late start. One of the things we struggled with 192 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 3: when designing the study was how we wanted to define late, 193 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 3: and our study finding showed that, yeah, four is already 194 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: a little late. So I think that the difference will 195 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 3: depend to some degree on when they find out. Because 196 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 3: the person that you're doing this podcast about, he's just 197 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 3: now identifying as an adopted person and now just diving 198 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 3: into that world and has maybe changing all the things 199 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 3: he's had to think about who he was and where 200 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 3: he came from. Whereas adoptees who've known forever have had 201 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 3: a head start in that. That doesn't mean they've always 202 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 3: gotten there or done the work or had effective progress 203 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 3: with it, but they've had the opportunities in some cases 204 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 3: to join adoption communities, to be with other adopted people 205 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 3: to start incorporating that into their identity from a very 206 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 3: early age. And the challenge is not being able to 207 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: incorporate that into your identity means it may feel like 208 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 3: your identity has to alter drastically from what you thought 209 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: it was. And knowing that there's this other family out 210 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 3: there who may or may not have ever wanted to 211 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 3: reconnect or something like that can throw people into a 212 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 3: tail spin. 213 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: In your experience, how typical is it for an adopt 214 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: you to discover that they were adopted, you know, finding 215 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 2: paperwork or some other way, but to not raise it 216 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: with their adoptive parents. 217 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 3: I think that there's definitely communication problems in all families, 218 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 3: and I think that some folks are more willing to 219 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 3: have those challenging and difficult conversations than others. Someone who 220 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 3: has not had a practice of that and maybe more unwilling. 221 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 2: To do it. 222 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 3: And sometimes people want to close the door on something 223 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 3: that doesn't fit into their narrative. 224 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, two people in this story is that they knew 225 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: and they just didn't want to rock the boat. They 226 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: didn't want to hurt their adoptive parents' feelings. 227 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: That goes with the grateful narrative too. Who am I 228 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 3: to question and challenge them? I don't want to rock 229 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 3: the boat. Maybe I don't want to deal with it either, 230 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: or maybe I like pretending because bringing that up is 231 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 3: going to change a lot, and it's going to force 232 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 3: some change and a lot of times, as humans, we 233 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 3: avoid discomfort, we avoid change, and that's where denial comes 234 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 3: into play a lot. 235 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: So I'm wondering if that's something we would recommend. Seeking 236 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 2: out records and finding a birth family. 237 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 3: Great question. I never say that one answer fits for everyone. 238 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: Back in the seventies and eighties, even the nineties, the 239 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 3: prevailing perspective was that any adopted person who wanted to 240 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: find their birth parents probably was dysfunctional in some way, 241 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 3: unhappy with their families, had some issues. Now the tables 242 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 3: have turned completely and the perspective is if you don't 243 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 3: want to find your birth families, then you must be 244 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 3: in denial or something like that. So there's a lot 245 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: of pressure either way. Adoptees are all pathologize and they 246 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 3: can't win completely. But I don't think there's a blanket 247 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 3: yes or no. I think the individual needs to really 248 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 3: think about what they want from that, whether they're ready 249 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 3: for it. I highly recommend therapy counseling for someone who's 250 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: considering it, because I've worked with lots of adoptees who 251 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 3: went in with this mission to do the detective work 252 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 3: and find the birth family and then had no idea 253 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: what they wanted to do with that relationship or how 254 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: to approach it, and it became challenging and painful for 255 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: both sides because here the birth family thinks, oh, they 256 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 3: want to know me and want to connect, but they're 257 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 3: withdrawing and they're withholding, and it's very confusing. The communication 258 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 3: is challenging. So anyone who's an LDA would benefit from 259 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 3: finding community, and if they're able to and willing to 260 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 3: get some therapy from someone who understands this experience, it 261 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: can be very beneficial to them. 262 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: So once you go on that journey and you find 263 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: your birth mother and she can't answer all your questions, 264 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: I wonder how that might impact your sense of self. 265 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 3: I think that you know, when you do find a 266 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: birth family member, you're never going to have all your 267 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 3: questions answered. You know, even when you're born to your parents, 268 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 3: they can't answer everything. There's some mystery that's always going 269 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 3: to be involved. But the sense of self is sometimes 270 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 3: how we make a sense of what we're hearing. Sometimes 271 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 3: adoptees make their interpretation of the relinquishment is about them. 272 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 3: They think it's some deficit they have or some punishment 273 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 3: for themselves, when in fact, most relinquishments are about the 274 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 3: problems that the birth parents are having. Yeah, and these 275 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 3: are adult problems. When you go into a union, it's 276 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 3: going to be hard because there are back and white answers. 277 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: And I wonder if we can talk about the adoptive 278 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: parents a little bit. I can imagine might be a 279 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 2: challenging time for an adoptive parent when their child is 280 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: seeking out the birth parents and siblings they never knew 281 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 2: they had. I'm wondering what kind of feelings this might 282 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 2: bring up for adoptive parents. 283 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: I'm guessing they would feel frustrated that they had to 284 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 3: reveal the truth, maybe they never intended to, or maybe 285 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 3: they feel some shame about it. I think a lot 286 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 3: of adoptive parents who keep these secrets don't come and 287 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 3: present for therapy. They may not be willing to confront 288 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 3: what's happening. One of the reasons that they may have 289 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 3: decided to keep this secret has been their own insecurity 290 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 3: about their status as parents, as rightful parents, as true parents, 291 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 3: and so I would guess that it would raise a 292 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: lot of those issues again for them. I've heard many 293 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 3: adoptive parents say they didn't want to share their child, 294 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: they want to erase the idea that birth parents even exist, 295 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 3: And in those cases we could say with fair certainty 296 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,959 Speaker 3: that those adoptive parents have not worked through their own 297 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 3: issues around deciding to adopt. 298 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 2: What suggestions might you have for someone who wants to 299 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 2: find the courage to say they'd like to get to 300 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 2: know their birth family, but doesn't necessarily want to disappoint 301 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: their adoptive parents or hurt someone's feelings. 302 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 3: I'd say that therapy can be a good start, because 303 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 3: sometimes with the work of a solid therapist, they can 304 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: help them find the words, and sometimes the therapists can 305 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 3: even help navigate that discussion. Whenever you come against something 306 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 3: that feels like a barrier, what often helps is to 307 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 3: empathize with the other perspective and then try and inform 308 00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 3: that perspective. So what I might suggest someone do is 309 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 3: empathize with their parents' fears and their anxieties and insecurities, 310 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: because they may feel that they're going to lose their child, 311 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 3: or something's going to shift and change for the worse 312 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 3: without recognizing that it often can shift for the better 313 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 3: if they can stay open and engaged in loving about it. 314 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: There's a lot of documentaries that exist, a lot of 315 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 3: movies that exist that can be a great conversation starters, 316 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 3: where then you can talk about this process and how 317 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 3: these parents, Why were those parents so engaged in this search? 318 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:40,959 Speaker 3: How were they able to make sense that you know, 319 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 3: that can give that opportunity to have some of those 320 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: discussions that they may struggle bringing up themselves. 321 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 2: In that vein. What are some things that people within 322 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: the orbit of the adoptee, you know, everyone in their life, 323 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 2: what can they do to help the adoptee and support them. 324 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 3: I think that it can be helpful to listen, certainly 325 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 3: without a ton of advice giving. I think the advice 326 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 3: giving can often be well meaning, but can sometimes reinforce 327 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 3: a lot of the stereotypes about adoption, and a lot 328 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 3: of advice giving often recreates some of the microaggressions that exist. 329 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 3: Like for example, one of the adoption microaggressions be named 330 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 3: was the phantom birth parents, and that's this idea of 331 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: trying to make them disappear, where the birth parents are 332 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 3: supposed to go off and not think about this. Again, 333 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 3: if everyone just does their role, then everything will be fine. 334 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 3: And it doesn't really work that way, And there's a 335 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 3: lot of adult adoptee communities out there that can be supportive. 336 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 3: I would say for this person, the big challenge a 337 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: lot of times is for them not to get stuck 338 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 3: in their anger and to keep moving through it and 339 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 3: to get the support to move through it. Because what 340 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: we see is someone who's struggling with making sense of 341 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 3: their identity or something getting stuck in that and not 342 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 3: making any movement. 343 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 2: Then yeah, I can definitely see that there's something you 344 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 2: wish people knew about adoption that you've gleaned from your work. 345 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 3: I guess I would say I wish that people would 346 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 3: recognize that adoptees aren't all damaged, that we're not all 347 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 3: the same, that there's just as much diversity among us 348 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 3: as there is in any other group, and that it's 349 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 3: not a sexy narrative to put in every movie, in 350 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 3: every book, even though it seems to be a very 351 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: compelling one to put in every time I'm watching a show. 352 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 3: I'm like, op, yep, there's another one. And so the 353 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 3: point where my family lasts because we see you any 354 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 3: show that's not at all connected to an adoption story, 355 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 3: that narrative still makes its way in as a quick 356 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 3: and dirty way to explain why someone would turn this 357 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 3: way or turn that. 358 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: Way, or you know, yeah, as a narrator to face 359 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 2: in some sort of way. 360 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 3: It really is, and I guess I wish if they're 361 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 3: going to use that that they do it with real 362 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 3: education about it and with real caution, because it does 363 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 3: contribute to the stereotypes and the stigma. 364 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 2: Doctor Rianton, thank you so much for taking the time 365 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 2: to talk to me. This is this is great, no. 366 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 3: Problem, glad to be here. 367 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to doctor Amanda Baden for taking 368 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: the time to share insight. We'll have some links to 369 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: her work in the episode description. Her website is doctor 370 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: Amandabaden dot com. Hello, John Doe has and original productions 371 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: by Revelations Entertainment in association with First and Life Productions. 372 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: From Revelation. Our executive producers are Morgan Freeman and James 373 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: Younger From First to Life. Lindsay Moreno is the executive 374 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 1: producer our producing partner is neo on Home Media. It 375 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: was written and produced by Kate Michigan. Our editor is 376 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: Katherine Saint Louis. She is also nei on Home Media's 377 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: executive editor. Our executive producer is Sherah Morris. Our development 378 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: producer is Ian Lindsay. Our associate producer is Rufaro Faith Maser. 379 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: Rural sound design and mixing by Scott Summerville. Theme and 380 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: original music composed by Jesse Pearlstein. Additional music came from 381 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: Epidemic Sound in Blue Dot Sessions. Frendall Faulton is our 382 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: fact checker. Our production manager is Samantha Allison from my 383 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: Heart Media. Dylan Fagan as our executive producer. 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If you didn't like it and don't do anything. 394 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: But if you did like it, you make sure that 395 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: your rate and review the show. It helps more people 396 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: to find it and hear this wonderful story. Thanks again 397 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: for listening.