WEBVTT - Hitler’s Olympics, Part 4: Outcast in Olympia

0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:18.000
<v Speaker 1>Pushkin. Let's begin today's episode with a poem penned in

0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.639
<v Speaker 1>the early part of the last century called Ode to Sport.

0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.840
<v Speaker 1>It was written by a short French aristocrat with a

0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:30.440
<v Speaker 1>mouth obscuringly large mustache and a deeply idiosyncratic view of antiquity,

0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:34.760
<v Speaker 1>the creator of the modern Olympic Games, the Baron Pierre

0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:36.320
<v Speaker 1>de Coubertain.

0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh Sport, you are progress. To serve you, a man

0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:47.319
<v Speaker 2>must improve himself, both physically and spiritually. You force him

0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.760
<v Speaker 2>to abide by a greater discipline. You demand that he

0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:52.680
<v Speaker 2>avoid all excess.

0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:55.160
<v Speaker 1>I didn't say it was a good poem.

0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.360
<v Speaker 2>You teach him wise rules which allow him to exert

0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:04.200
<v Speaker 2>himself with the maximum of intensity without compromising his good health.

0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.279
<v Speaker 1>Ot to sport is terrible, just awful. So of course

0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:11.039
<v Speaker 1>we're going to be playing a lot of it. But

0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:15.320
<v Speaker 1>the palm also matters, because it's a time capsule. De

0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:17.679
<v Speaker 1>kouper Tank believed that the Olympics should be a kind

0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.840
<v Speaker 1>of modern religion, embodying the aristocratic values of amateurism, no

0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.200
<v Speaker 1>money for sport and internationalism.

0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh Sport, you are peace. You promote happy relations between peoples,

0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.000
<v Speaker 2>bringing them together in their shared devotion to a strength

0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.680
<v Speaker 2>which is controlled, organized and self disciplined.

0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.400
<v Speaker 1>The Martin Games got their start in eighteen ninety six

0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:48.720
<v Speaker 1>in Athens. Of course, four years later in Paris, they'd

0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.080
<v Speaker 1>included the most dignified upper crust of sports, such as

0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.360
<v Speaker 1>pigeon shooting, croquet, and not to be forgotten, the horse

0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:02.120
<v Speaker 1>long jump. But the earliest games fell short of the

0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.200
<v Speaker 1>Baron's epic vision. Mainly they kept happening at world's fares,

0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.280
<v Speaker 1>and it's hard to convey a deep connection to antiquity

0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.720
<v Speaker 1>when you're handing out medals next to, say, the gigantic

0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.440
<v Speaker 1>butter statue of Teddy Roosevelt riding a horse. But that

0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:26.280
<v Speaker 1>all changed in nineteen twelve. Picture the opening day of

0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:30.120
<v Speaker 1>the Stockholm Olympics. That year. Trumpets blared as members of

0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.240
<v Speaker 1>the Swedish royal family paraded their way to their box.

0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.960
<v Speaker 1>International Olympic Committee members in silk hats and frock coats

0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:43.320
<v Speaker 1>processed in ornate facial hair abounded. Thousands of men and

0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.640
<v Speaker 1>women athletes strode into the stadium to stand before the

0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:51.640
<v Speaker 1>Swedish King. The Baron de Kubertan was there too, and

0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:56.120
<v Speaker 1>there wasn't a butter statue in sight. These were the

0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.359
<v Speaker 1>first games with athletes from every continent except for Antarctica,

0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.880
<v Speaker 1>introduced epic sports like the decathlon, and per the Baron's wishes,

0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:06.760
<v Speaker 1>there was an arts competition, which meant there was an

0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:11.359
<v Speaker 1>Olympic gold medal for literature, one in nineteen twelve by

0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.520
<v Speaker 1>a poem written under a pseudonym by the Baron himself,

0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:17.200
<v Speaker 1>ode to sport.

0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Yours is a prudent, well considered audacity.

0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.200
<v Speaker 1>These games were a turning point. But for our purposes

0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:28.120
<v Speaker 1>they mattered not because of the athletic or artistic triumphs,

0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.920
<v Speaker 1>or the absence of carved butter. No, they mattered because

0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:34.840
<v Speaker 1>of one young man in that mass of thousands of athletes,

0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.800
<v Speaker 1>standing on the field, facing the King into kober Tan,

0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.080
<v Speaker 1>a young man in round wire spectacles who had an

0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.800
<v Speaker 1>appointment that day with faith, a fate that would later

0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.520
<v Speaker 1>put him in the position to save the modern Olympics,

0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.240
<v Speaker 1>and that would twenty four years later cost him his soul,

0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.400
<v Speaker 1>a young man named Avery Brundage.

0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:07.960
<v Speaker 3>Welcome to Revisionist History, my show about things overlooked and misunderstood.

0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.920
<v Speaker 3>I'm Malcolm Gladwell. This is episode four of our series

0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:16.080
<v Speaker 3>on the Berlin Olympics in nineteen thirty six Hitler's Olympics.

0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.760
<v Speaker 3>Over the past two episodes, I introduced you to one

0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.159
<v Speaker 3>of my all time favorite historical figures, Charles Hitchcock Cheryl,

0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.880
<v Speaker 3>the patrician dufus who met Hitler and told the world, Hey,

0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.400
<v Speaker 3>this guy's all right, let's play sports with him. But today,

0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.320
<v Speaker 3>in the show by Colleague bend A, daph Haffrey brings

0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.760
<v Speaker 3>us the story of the man who really made the

0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.120
<v Speaker 3>games happen, and not only the nineteen thirty six Games,

0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.120
<v Speaker 3>but the Olympics as we know them today. The one,

0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:49.440
<v Speaker 3>the only Avery Brundage.

0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.520
<v Speaker 1>We meet again, Yeah, to discuss yet another member of

0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.440
<v Speaker 1>the International Olympic Committee.

0:04:56.480 --> 0:05:02.240
<v Speaker 3>The most he is the most complet the most important,

0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.320
<v Speaker 3>and when I say complicated, I mean that unlike Cheryl,

0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:13.800
<v Speaker 3>he's not a dufus and he's not a cardboard villain.

0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.080
<v Speaker 3>I feel like the mid century was full of men

0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:21.760
<v Speaker 3>like this. Fiction was full of men like this. The

0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:27.040
<v Speaker 3>architect in in Coward Runtad and I RAN's the Fountainhead.

0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.880
<v Speaker 1>He's also just like an epic epic figure. I think

0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:31.880
<v Speaker 1>we have to start, we have to begin in an

0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:37.640
<v Speaker 1>epic register. Yes, honestly, it's best if he introduces himself, ladies.

0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.640
<v Speaker 4>And gentlemen of the press. Usually I'm introduced as the

0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:47.119
<v Speaker 4>last living amateur, something like the tattooed man.

0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:51.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, that's every brandage late in life. Speaking to

0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:52.800
<v Speaker 1>some reporters in Japan, a.

0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.839
<v Speaker 4>Journalist friend of mine in Chicago, one of the most

0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:05.000
<v Speaker 4>sophisticated and cynical columnists there, visited Olympia not so long ago,

0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.440
<v Speaker 4>and I was amazed to pick up the paper in

0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:16.760
<v Speaker 4>Chicago shortly thereafter and see a headline Brundage may be right.

0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:23.119
<v Speaker 4>After all, this man was so impressed by the atmosphere

0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:28.560
<v Speaker 4>at ancient Olympia that he was almost converted. I don't

0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.400
<v Speaker 4>know how long it lasted, but for the moment he

0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:36.960
<v Speaker 4>was converted to the Olympic spirit.

0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.120
<v Speaker 1>Conversion to the Olympic Spirit was Avery, Brundage's great obsession.

0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:46.440
<v Speaker 1>The Olympic religion never had a better evangelist. But our

0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:49.880
<v Speaker 1>series isn't only concerned with the Olympic Games. The bigger

0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.800
<v Speaker 1>question here is why do some people see evil for

0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.679
<v Speaker 1>what it is when others can't or won't. Dorothy Thompson

0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.560
<v Speaker 1>could see the dangers of Nazism because she was born

0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.919
<v Speaker 1>to a marginalized group herself. She was a woman poor

0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Charles Cheryl loved Hitler. He was born upper crust and

0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:11.000
<v Speaker 1>only cared to stay that way. Brundage, though, looks a

0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.480
<v Speaker 1>lot more like Thompson than Cheryl. At first. He starts

0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.200
<v Speaker 1>out as an underdog, and you're gonna want to root

0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:21.520
<v Speaker 1>for him, but in the end, well, we'll get there.

0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.640
<v Speaker 1>Avery Brundage grew up poor in Chicago around the turn

0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.920
<v Speaker 1>of the twentieth century. It was the classic gloomy first

0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.720
<v Speaker 1>act of an American dream, waking up in the dark

0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.480
<v Speaker 1>to work as a paper boy, commuting seven miles each

0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.520
<v Speaker 1>way to school. Father who leaves when he's five and

0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:44.000
<v Speaker 1>dies alone, the victim as the newspaper reads of business reverses.

0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.480
<v Speaker 1>Brundage was brilliant and maybe a little haunted by failure.

0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.960
<v Speaker 1>He was always top of his class, winning national prizes,

0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:56.600
<v Speaker 1>and always passionate about sports. Crucially sports you could play alone,

0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.920
<v Speaker 1>like track and field. But poor kid remembers his school

0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.320
<v Speaker 1>didn't have sports facilities. He made his own discus out

0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.840
<v Speaker 1>of an iron washer, he used a rock for shot put,

0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:11.080
<v Speaker 1>and he practiced long jumping in an abandoned lot. When

0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.440
<v Speaker 1>I imagine Avery Brandage's early life. I picture him from

0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.640
<v Speaker 1>a distance, a little boy in glasses, alone on an

0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.040
<v Speaker 1>empty parcel of land, jumping again and again into the

0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.040
<v Speaker 1>same hole, trying to beat himself.

0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:29.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh, sport, you are joy to the sorrowful. You can

0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.320
<v Speaker 2>even bring salutary diversion from their distress.

0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:36.920
<v Speaker 1>He studied engineering in college, and he was a track star.

0:08:37.400 --> 0:08:39.880
<v Speaker 1>Not because he was amazing at any event in particular,

0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.840
<v Speaker 1>but because he was so relentless in training that he

0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.760
<v Speaker 1>was pretty good at them all. Mainly though he did

0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.880
<v Speaker 1>a million extracurriculars, he just wants to be in the club,

0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.959
<v Speaker 1>better yet to lead the club. He's like the kid

0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:56.640
<v Speaker 1>in that movie Rushmore yearbook board member, fraternity member, literary

0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:01.000
<v Speaker 1>magazine editor in chief, chairman of the sea, your stag dance.

0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Same deal with sports. He's all about sports organizations. It's

0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:08.120
<v Speaker 1>not enough for him to be on the track team.

0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.240
<v Speaker 1>He's got to be on the governing body so he

0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.840
<v Speaker 1>can pass the rule that students who aren't on varsity

0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.080
<v Speaker 1>teams can't wear the school of colors. So if you're

0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:19.160
<v Speaker 1>a student at the University of Illinois in Brundage's time,

0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:21.640
<v Speaker 1>and you're not a track star. He doesn't want you

0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.680
<v Speaker 1>wearing orange and blue. This, I think is a good

0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:30.120
<v Speaker 1>illustration of the first rule of Avery Brundage's universe. There

0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:34.080
<v Speaker 1>must be rules, even with food. Like when he's older,

0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.360
<v Speaker 1>he only eats one lunch every day, and it's an

0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.000
<v Speaker 1>egg sandwich with bacon, a side of tomato, and a

0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.640
<v Speaker 1>baked apple, which is like the most Midwestern thing I've

0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.359
<v Speaker 1>ever heard. The world of Avery Brandage is rule bound,

0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.800
<v Speaker 1>and a rule bound world is a world of task.

0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.000
<v Speaker 1>If Charles Cheryl is the classic International Olympic Committee member

0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.839
<v Speaker 1>born at the top of the pyramid, Avery Brundage is

0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.400
<v Speaker 1>born just a bit above the bottom. He knows it,

0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.400
<v Speaker 1>and he knows what it's going to take to get

0:09:59.440 --> 0:09:59.920
<v Speaker 1>to the top.

0:10:00.720 --> 0:10:03.600
<v Speaker 3>In all of the interviews I've read with him, he

0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:06.800
<v Speaker 3>always made a point of talking about how unpopular he was.

0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.320
<v Speaker 1>Malcolm and I have spent hours psychoanalyzing this man.

0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:13.080
<v Speaker 3>There's a version of that where the person owns it.

0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.640
<v Speaker 3>But it's not that it's this kind of grim determination that,

0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.640
<v Speaker 3>of course all of the weaklings out there don't understand

0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:22.839
<v Speaker 3>what I'm doing. That's why I'm who I am, That's

0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:23.640
<v Speaker 3>why I'm special.

0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:26.480
<v Speaker 1>I found a typewritten note from Brendage that kind of

0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.840
<v Speaker 1>backs this up. It's in his archive, part of some

0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.920
<v Speaker 1>ideas he had for an autobiography he never published. He

0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:35.760
<v Speaker 1>reads one summer vacation, when in college, had a political

0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.199
<v Speaker 1>job in an office containing two hundred or three hundred appointees.

0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:43.080
<v Speaker 1>Became very unpopular because, in order to keep busy, I

0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.680
<v Speaker 1>did not only all my own work, but all the

0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.240
<v Speaker 1>work of the score of others. The boss began to

0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.760
<v Speaker 1>think that if I stayed there much longer, there would

0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.360
<v Speaker 1>be no work left. When I took a day off

0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.520
<v Speaker 1>to go to the ballpark because I had nothing to do,

0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:01.000
<v Speaker 1>I got fired. So this sounds ridiculu us, but I

0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:04.800
<v Speaker 1>actually believe it. And more importantly, I don't think he

0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.560
<v Speaker 1>realizes how unlikable this story makes him sound. But it

0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.880
<v Speaker 1>illustrates another one of his rules. If you're the best,

0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.920
<v Speaker 1>you'll be hated by the rest. That's just the fact.

0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.840
<v Speaker 1>But after college, our man discovered that the real world

0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:22.840
<v Speaker 1>didn't play by his rules. He worked as a construction superintendent,

0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.600
<v Speaker 1>which was a really bad industry for a man of principle.

0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.600
<v Speaker 1>Right away, he was inspecting materials for an architect's new building,

0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.320
<v Speaker 1>the first shipment of stone had major flaws. He tried

0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.320
<v Speaker 1>to send it back and the supplier said, better think twice.

0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.800
<v Speaker 1>This stuff comes from their architect's nephew. Things did not

0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:41.000
<v Speaker 1>improve from there.

0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.560
<v Speaker 4>It was a criticism of the climate which exists in

0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.600
<v Speaker 4>the world today, and it is, as I say, a

0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.360
<v Speaker 4>very sad commentary on our so called civilization.

0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:56.199
<v Speaker 1>To quote from his unpublished autobiography, Like most young men

0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:58.880
<v Speaker 1>who think about it, I was disturbed by the gross

0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:02.360
<v Speaker 1>social and economic injustices in the imperfect world in which

0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:06.559
<v Speaker 1>we live, and all the inequity, trouble and misery caused

0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.880
<v Speaker 1>by the cupidity, the ignorance, and the stupidity of the

0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:14.880
<v Speaker 1>peculiar people occasionally thrown into power and authority, as his

0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.520
<v Speaker 1>biographer Alan Gutman put it, from uneasy involvement in the

0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:26.120
<v Speaker 1>imperfect world, Brundage found refuge in amateur athletics. While Brundage

0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.280
<v Speaker 1>was making his way in business, he kept up his

0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:33.240
<v Speaker 1>track and field training, discus shot put running. He got

0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:36.920
<v Speaker 1>so good that in nineteen twelve he got the telegram

0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.360
<v Speaker 1>that would change his life, an invitation from the US

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.720
<v Speaker 1>Olympic Committee.

0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:46.959
<v Speaker 4>I was a member of the United States team in

0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:47.800
<v Speaker 4>nineteen twelve.

0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.600
<v Speaker 1>At this point, Avery Brundage was still living with his mom.

0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.800
<v Speaker 1>Illinois was the center of his universe. But as soon

0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.600
<v Speaker 1>as he got that telegram, he quit his job and

0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.400
<v Speaker 1>headed to New York. Then he climbed aboard the glamorous

0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.000
<v Speaker 1>SS Finland with all the other athletes for ten days

0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.719
<v Speaker 1>of all you can eat meals underneath the ornate, filigreed

0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:12.679
<v Speaker 1>sunroof of the dining saloon. This was more like it

0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.959
<v Speaker 1>when he arrived at the Games in Stockholm in nineteen twelve.

0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 1>It was a world away from Chicago. In that unpublished autobiography,

0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.839
<v Speaker 1>he wrote, I shall never forget. As the steamer picked

0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.640
<v Speaker 1>its way cautiously through the alluring archipelago to the anchorage,

0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 1>it was approximately ten o'clock in the evening, and the

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.320
<v Speaker 1>sun was about to set behind us. The myriad of

0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 1>beautiful pine clad islands with neat and well cared for

0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 1>homes with flower gardens, the winding channels containing scores of

0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.240
<v Speaker 1>boats of all shapes and sizes, and the rosy glow

0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:52.000
<v Speaker 1>of the setting sun presented a picture of fairyland. I

0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:59.520
<v Speaker 1>shall always remember. I've read a lot of Avery Brundage,

0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.439
<v Speaker 1>and let me tell you, fairyland is not the kind

0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.959
<v Speaker 1>of word he uses. The man was in love. It

0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:09.800
<v Speaker 1>was midsummer in Stockholm, and the days were surreal and long,

0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.480
<v Speaker 1>with only an hour or two of darkness. Flags fluttered

0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:17.640
<v Speaker 1>in streets, flanked by balconies bursting with flowers. Avery was

0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.080
<v Speaker 1>swept up in a whirl of Olympic parties, banquets, balls,

0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:25.560
<v Speaker 1>garden parties, concerts, receptions and entertainments. He rubbed shoulders with

0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.120
<v Speaker 1>royalty for a few days. He wasn't the poor kid

0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:32.640
<v Speaker 1>from corrupt Chicago anymore. He was an Olympian.

0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:38.160
<v Speaker 3>Well, the dime store psychological reading of this.

0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.520
<v Speaker 1>Can't we at least upgrade ourselves to like dollar dollar

0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:46.120
<v Speaker 1>store dollars our dollar general psychoanalysis? You know, all right,

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:46.520
<v Speaker 1>he is.

0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.520
<v Speaker 3>He's the hic from Chicago, right, grows up without a

0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 3>dad in some you know, cold water flat somewhere in Chicago,

0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:55.720
<v Speaker 3>makes his own way in the world. He's not really,

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.920
<v Speaker 3>he's not worldly. When he goes to the nineteen twelve Olympic,

0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.520
<v Speaker 3>I think it's the first time he's left the United States. Yeah,

0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.080
<v Speaker 3>Cheryl crosses the Atlantic eighty two times in the course

0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.920
<v Speaker 3>of his life, and you know, he some part of

0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.920
<v Speaker 3>him desperately wants to be He just gets a glimpse

0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.880
<v Speaker 3>of this, this kind of the fabulous life these other

0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.760
<v Speaker 3>people are leading, and I just think he some part

0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.000
<v Speaker 3>of just like I want that.

0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:27.320
<v Speaker 1>He wanted this perfect world of sport because of how

0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:29.880
<v Speaker 1>angry he was about the corruption in the real world,

0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.880
<v Speaker 1>for bribes and the nepotism. The Olympic religion said, sports

0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:39.200
<v Speaker 1>are the opposite. They're objective, they're fair, they're meritocratic. And

0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:41.120
<v Speaker 1>I know it sounds like a lot, but if you

0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.120
<v Speaker 1>don't believe me, then let's consult that gold medal winning

0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:49.760
<v Speaker 1>poem by the founder of the modern Olympics.

0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh sport, The perfect equity for which men strive in

0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:58.280
<v Speaker 2>vain in their social institutions is your constant companion. No

0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.920
<v Speaker 2>one can jump a centimeter higher than the height he

0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.240
<v Speaker 2>can jump, nor run a minute longer than the length

0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.760
<v Speaker 2>he can run. The limits of his success are determined

0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.360
<v Speaker 2>solely by his own physical and moral strength.

0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.120
<v Speaker 1>Obviously, I think this poem is hilarious, but it's basically

0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.000
<v Speaker 1>the worldview that Avery Brandage adopted at the Games in

0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:20.880
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twelve.

0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:26.040
<v Speaker 2>Oh Sport Pleasure of the Gods essence of life. You

0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.280
<v Speaker 2>appeared suddenly in the midst of the.

0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:32.080
<v Speaker 5>Gray clearing, which writhes with the drudgery of modern existence,

0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:37.440
<v Speaker 5>like the radiant messenger of a past age, when mankind

0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:39.640
<v Speaker 5>still smiled.

0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:44.000
<v Speaker 2>And the glimmer of dawn lit up the mountaintops, and

0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 2>flecks of light dotted the ground in the gloomy forests.

0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Brandage had come from the gray clearing, which writh with

0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.960
<v Speaker 1>the drudgery of modern existence. A radiant messenger of a

0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:02.240
<v Speaker 1>past age has send him a telegraph, beckoning him out

0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.159
<v Speaker 1>to where the glimmer of dawn lit up the mountaintops.

0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.880
<v Speaker 1>The Olympics were above money in politics. At the Games,

0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Avery Brundage's exceptionalism, his hard work might finally be recognized.

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:22.800
<v Speaker 1>Maybe there'd be medals, but already there was prestige, respect access.

0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.879
<v Speaker 1>I want you to picture in your mind again the

0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:31.919
<v Speaker 1>opening day at Stockholm, young Avery Brandage, bespectacled, glowing in

0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:35.320
<v Speaker 1>the heart of modern Olympia. His world has just gotten

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.800
<v Speaker 1>ten times bigger. He's under the gaze of the King

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.920
<v Speaker 1>of Sweden. Somewhere in the stands is the Baron to

0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:46.440
<v Speaker 1>Cooper ten He's caught the Olympic religion, and now he's

0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:47.280
<v Speaker 1>going to run with it.

0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:03.560
<v Speaker 3>The trick I think to understanding every bondage is imagine

0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:08.280
<v Speaker 3>you're in you're in Chicago and it's nineteen twenty five,

0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:12.680
<v Speaker 3>and you know, it's the Roaring twenties, and you meet

0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:17.840
<v Speaker 3>this guy in his penthouse apartment on you know, you know,

0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.760
<v Speaker 3>it's Lakeshore Drive, and he looks out the window and

0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:22.359
<v Speaker 3>he says, I built that, and I built that, and

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:24.439
<v Speaker 3>I built that, and I built that, and you know

0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.040
<v Speaker 3>where I grew up And he points way way way

0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.840
<v Speaker 3>off into the furthest end of Chicago in a place

0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.000
<v Speaker 3>you can barely make out. And then you think to yourself,

0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:39.600
<v Speaker 3>you know, oh my god, like he did this. You

0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.720
<v Speaker 3>have to get yourself in that kind of place to

0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.200
<v Speaker 3>appreciate every bondage.

0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.760
<v Speaker 1>Early last spring, I headed to Chicago to meet up

0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:49.880
<v Speaker 1>with Liz Patterson and Julia Backrock.

0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:52.639
<v Speaker 6>So I'm just getting back on the main drive. You

0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:55.760
<v Speaker 6>that makes sense, Yes, yes, we need to head south.

0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.160
<v Speaker 1>So they're both architectural historians, and they've done a lot

0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.879
<v Speaker 1>of work studying the buildings Avery Brundage built when he

0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.080
<v Speaker 1>was back from those games, creating his construction empire in

0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.160
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen twenties and thirties.

0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:12.520
<v Speaker 6>Fourteen forty eight and fifteen forty at Lower Lake Shore Rio.

0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:13.159
<v Speaker 2>We won.

0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 1>We just passed. Yeah, we pretty much just spent a

0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:19.600
<v Speaker 1>day driving around Chicago. I a New Yorker living in

0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.280
<v Speaker 1>a shoe box, kept being like a three bedroom costs what,

0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.040
<v Speaker 1>and they every few minutes would be like Brundage built that, Oh,

0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:28.000
<v Speaker 1>and that, and also that.

0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.960
<v Speaker 6>Julia I realized that we drove right by a couple

0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.360
<v Speaker 6>of the other Brandage building's in there. I think that's

0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:37.080
<v Speaker 6>gonna have to be okay, Yeah, rather.

0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:42.680
<v Speaker 1>Every down Avery Brandage didn't win a medal at the

0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.119
<v Speaker 1>nineteen twelve Olympics, but he did find his life's calling.

0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.240
<v Speaker 1>He glimpsed the world held up by two pillars sport

0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.200
<v Speaker 1>and wealth. He wanted both, so when he got back

0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:58.399
<v Speaker 1>from the Games, he got to work first the money.

0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Took his engineering decree and built buildings for Illinois Life

0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.680
<v Speaker 1>Insurance Company Public Life Insurance Company. He built the Canada

0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.320
<v Speaker 1>dry ginger Ale plant and the gigantic Chicago Ford Motor

0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:13.639
<v Speaker 1>Company plant on the banks of the River. And he

0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:17.119
<v Speaker 1>did it all by working harder and smarter than his competition.

0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.760
<v Speaker 6>So the concrete work I think people were starting to

0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:28.480
<v Speaker 6>use a lot of they're called salamanders, but heaters inside

0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:31.399
<v Speaker 6>to get as much out of the winter months as

0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:35.720
<v Speaker 6>they could. But he found ways to position them better

0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:39.920
<v Speaker 6>so that everything kept warmer, and then the concrete could

0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:41.880
<v Speaker 6>be poured and cured more quickly.

0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.920
<v Speaker 1>And Brndage was honest. When he finished a project under budget,

0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.240
<v Speaker 1>he returned the extra money the jobs just like the

0:20:50.280 --> 0:20:55.240
<v Speaker 1>concrete came pouring in. He built the twenty third Street Viaduct,

0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.320
<v Speaker 1>the glamorous Shoreland Hotel, and a huge number of luxury

0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:03.560
<v Speaker 1>apartments on Lake Shore Drive, Chicago's most desirable address.

0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.320
<v Speaker 6>He definitely got a lot of all the work that

0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:08.120
<v Speaker 6>was going on during that period.

0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:10.920
<v Speaker 1>How much of Chicago was built in that period.

0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:14.119
<v Speaker 6>Oh, thousands and thousands of building permits were issued in

0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:14.680
<v Speaker 6>the twenties.

0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:16.760
<v Speaker 1>But he was also a bit of a local celebrity

0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:18.919
<v Speaker 1>if you search him in local papers.

0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.640
<v Speaker 6>He was definitely a known commodity in Chicago.

0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.480
<v Speaker 1>Every Rundage made of fortune, but the fame and the

0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:30.560
<v Speaker 1>wealth were a means to an end. Rundage was trying

0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:34.480
<v Speaker 1>to buy a ticket back to Olympia, to Fairyland. He

0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.919
<v Speaker 1>became a leader in amateur sport, like to Kubertin, an

0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 1>evangelist for the Olympic cause, but with a harder edge.

0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 1>He once wrote, not to develop the latent possibilities of

0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.679
<v Speaker 1>the human body as a crime, since it certainly violates

0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:53.600
<v Speaker 1>the law of nature. Once again, rules and laws. If

0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.760
<v Speaker 1>Charles Hitchcock Cheryl is the prototypical member of the IOC,

0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:00.040
<v Speaker 1>cheerfully enjoying life at the top of the pyramid, I

0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.960
<v Speaker 1>just never quite has the ease of being born to privilege.

0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.359
<v Speaker 1>He's all about striving and self discipline and the discipline

0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:12.000
<v Speaker 1>of others to shore up his position. By nineteen twenty eight,

0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:15.800
<v Speaker 1>Brundage was president of the American Olympic Committee, and given

0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.919
<v Speaker 1>everything that was to happen next, I have to believe

0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:22.320
<v Speaker 1>he'd already set his sights on the International Olympic Committee,

0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:23.440
<v Speaker 1>the IOC.

0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:29.880
<v Speaker 3>So this is the great paradox of Brundage. So here's

0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.879
<v Speaker 3>a guy who was resolutely not of the world of

0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 3>the IOC. The OC is a bunch of pampered aristocrats

0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:40.520
<v Speaker 3>whose best days are behind them. He's from Chicago, He's

0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:44.840
<v Speaker 3>made millions building big buildings. He has a mixture of

0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:51.159
<v Speaker 3>envy and a desire to join this crowd, but at

0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:54.679
<v Speaker 3>the same time he must have contempt for them everything

0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:55.520
<v Speaker 3>he aspises.

0:22:55.840 --> 0:22:59.119
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I think he does. I think some of it

0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:01.879
<v Speaker 1>is a some of it is just he understands that

0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:05.080
<v Speaker 1>they have something that he lacks, and he wants the

0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.719
<v Speaker 1>psychological security of being, you know, one of the as

0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.800
<v Speaker 1>kuber Tack calls them, trusted men. He wants to know

0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.280
<v Speaker 1>that within a very strict hierarchy he is at the top.

0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:18.919
<v Speaker 1>But I think the more complicated thing about him is

0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:22.120
<v Speaker 1>I also believe that he probably hates these people. It's like,

0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:23.919
<v Speaker 1>like you said, he probably knows that he can kind

0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:24.960
<v Speaker 1>of eat them for lunch.

0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:27.160
<v Speaker 3>I was thinking about this in the context the transition

0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:31.200
<v Speaker 3>from Ryl to Brundage is a transition from the nineteenth

0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:35.280
<v Speaker 3>to the twentieth century. The nineteenth century is the you know,

0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:39.840
<v Speaker 3>the world of the aristocrats who are fundamentally unimpressive at

0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:42.720
<v Speaker 3>the end of the day, and who who you know,

0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:44.800
<v Speaker 3>are in power just by virtue of the fact that

0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 3>they were born into some landed gentry family. And that

0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.560
<v Speaker 3>is the world of the IOC. He's like, he's the

0:23:50.640 --> 0:23:53.600
<v Speaker 3>twentieth century guy. He is and he is everything that

0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:57.800
<v Speaker 3>is in some ways fantastic about the twentieth century. It's

0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:04.399
<v Speaker 3>a self made, driven, ambitious visionary who just gets stuff done.

0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:08.080
<v Speaker 3>The man built half the Scotland of Chicago. But he's like,

0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:10.080
<v Speaker 3>there's something real here.

0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:10.640
<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.199
<v Speaker 1>It's also like a faith in a meritocracy, like you

0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:17.400
<v Speaker 1>have this, like all of these structures of the meritocracy

0:24:17.400 --> 0:24:19.080
<v Speaker 1>of like, well, we actually want to find the best

0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:21.200
<v Speaker 1>people and elevate them. We don't just want to accept

0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:23.920
<v Speaker 1>whoever's been born to the highest class. And I feel

0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:27.320
<v Speaker 1>like he is. He believes that there's a pathway through

0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:31.720
<v Speaker 1>his brains to power and glory. But he's also maybe

0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:35.399
<v Speaker 1>he's still obsessed enough with the sort of nineteenth century

0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:39.320
<v Speaker 1>aristocratic idea where he knows these guys still have some

0:24:39.400 --> 0:24:41.840
<v Speaker 1>ineffable thing that he does not, and he wants it.

0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.520
<v Speaker 1>Here's a man who has everything, millions, a construction empire,

0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:50.560
<v Speaker 1>gorgeous lake front housing, but I think he's still dreaming

0:24:50.920 --> 0:24:54.160
<v Speaker 1>of the IOC. The problem is he, in so many

0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:57.560
<v Speaker 1>ways does not fit in there. And obviously Malcolm and

0:24:57.640 --> 0:25:00.480
<v Speaker 1>I are obsessed with one of those ways. In particular,

0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:05.520
<v Speaker 1>here we have a photo of the IOC in nineteen

0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:15.320
<v Speaker 1>thirty and what do we got we got mustache, mustache, mustache, mustache, mustache, mustache, mustache, mustache, mustache,

0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:19.320
<v Speaker 1>be and beard. They all have these very luxuriant mustaches.

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:21.879
<v Speaker 1>And Avery Brandage crucially does not.

0:25:21.880 --> 0:25:24.480
<v Speaker 7>Have the mustache, and wouldn't.

0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:27.760
<v Speaker 1>But Avery Brandage wants into the club, mustache or not.

0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:31.520
<v Speaker 1>He wants it intensely, and I think he wants it

0:25:31.560 --> 0:25:34.720
<v Speaker 1>so badly, not just because he's running towards the Olympics,

0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:38.920
<v Speaker 1>but because he's running away from his shame, shame about

0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:43.159
<v Speaker 1>his origins, but also shame about what happened on the

0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:46.880
<v Speaker 1>field in the Stockholm Olympics in nineteen twelve. I never

0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:49.880
<v Speaker 1>actually told you about that, did I. We'll be right

0:25:49.920 --> 0:26:02.320
<v Speaker 1>back In later years. An Olympic evangelist, Avery Brendage was

0:26:02.359 --> 0:26:05.440
<v Speaker 1>particularly fond of a quote from the Baron Pierre de

0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:09.480
<v Speaker 1>coubertin the French Founder of the modern Olympics. Forgive me,

0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:13.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna do his accent now. The important thing in

0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:17.880
<v Speaker 1>life is not triumph, but the struggle. The inessential thing

0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:22.680
<v Speaker 1>is not to have conquered, but to have thought well.

0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:25.720
<v Speaker 1>And no event is so full of struggle as Avery

0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:29.719
<v Speaker 1>Brandage's main event in the nineteen twelve Olympics the decathlon.

0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:35.800
<v Speaker 3>It is in lore, the most difficult event in the Olympics, right,

0:26:35.920 --> 0:26:38.600
<v Speaker 3>It's everyone else is doing one event. The decathlete must

0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:41.800
<v Speaker 3>do ten at all of the events. Nine of the

0:26:41.840 --> 0:26:49.000
<v Speaker 3>ten events are all events that are require speed and strength. Right,

0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:51.720
<v Speaker 3>So you open with one hundred meters a sprint, You

0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:54.400
<v Speaker 3>do the long jump, the shop quote, the high jump,

0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:57.000
<v Speaker 3>the forward of meters. That's the first day. Those are

0:26:57.040 --> 0:27:01.280
<v Speaker 3>all events that suit one kind of athlete, the you know,

0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:05.040
<v Speaker 3>think about a fast twitch yeah, the football linebacker. We

0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:08.760
<v Speaker 3>kill those first five, right, and then day two starts.

0:27:08.800 --> 0:27:11.560
<v Speaker 3>Now you wake up on day two, you're exhausted and

0:27:11.600 --> 0:27:14.760
<v Speaker 3>you're sore. You've just done five times what a normal

0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:17.119
<v Speaker 3>athlete does in the Olympics. So now you have to

0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:18.880
<v Speaker 3>go back to the track, and then you do the

0:27:19.000 --> 0:27:22.720
<v Speaker 3>one hundred and ten meter hurdles again speed and strength.

0:27:22.920 --> 0:27:26.639
<v Speaker 3>The discus throw speed and strength, the pole vault speed

0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:30.240
<v Speaker 3>and strength, the javelin throws speed and strength. We've done

0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:33.439
<v Speaker 3>nine events now, and now we get to the fifteen

0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:36.960
<v Speaker 3>hundred meters, which is not speed and it's not strength.

0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:40.600
<v Speaker 3>It's middle distance. It requires a completely different set of

0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:47.760
<v Speaker 3>physical gifts. Right, So all decathletes have this crisis, which

0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:51.159
<v Speaker 3>is they're almost all linebacker types. Who are you have

0:27:51.240 --> 0:27:53.320
<v Speaker 3>to be? You got to master the first nine events,

0:27:53.520 --> 0:27:56.200
<v Speaker 3>but then at the moment when you are most exhausted,

0:27:56.280 --> 0:27:58.560
<v Speaker 3>at the end of the second day, you must do

0:27:58.640 --> 0:28:03.320
<v Speaker 3>a sport, an event for which you are wholly unsuited. Right,

0:28:03.400 --> 0:28:05.640
<v Speaker 3>You've got to be a distance runner. And you watch,

0:28:05.720 --> 0:28:08.560
<v Speaker 3>if you watch it, what happens is you watch them

0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:13.000
<v Speaker 3>all just die before your eyes. They're exhausted, they can't

0:28:13.040 --> 0:28:15.600
<v Speaker 3>do this, they hate it, they're terrified of it. And

0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:18.480
<v Speaker 3>you watch them lump, these big guys lumber around the track.

0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:22.040
<v Speaker 3>It's the only event in the entire Olympics where people

0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:26.560
<v Speaker 3>are doing something that they're not good at, right, the only.

0:28:26.720 --> 0:28:30.600
<v Speaker 1>Event that's interesting. Yeah, And in nineteen twelve it was

0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:31.720
<v Speaker 1>the most dramatic event.

0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:35.000
<v Speaker 8>King Gustav of Sweden officiates at the opening of the

0:28:35.000 --> 0:28:40.200
<v Speaker 8>newly built Olympic Stadium in Stockholm. It is the sixth

0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:43.080
<v Speaker 8>revival of the modern Olympic Games.

0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:48.080
<v Speaker 1>July thirteenth, nineteen twelve, seven days after the opening ceremony,

0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:50.479
<v Speaker 1>and a twenty four year old Avery Brandage is on

0:28:50.520 --> 0:28:51.800
<v Speaker 1>the field unsmiling.

0:28:52.920 --> 0:29:01.720
<v Speaker 8>But decathlon was designed to epitomize the Olympic theme Sidius altius, fortius, swifter, stronger.

0:29:03.920 --> 0:29:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Remember, Brundage had quit his job in Chicago to compete

0:29:07.000 --> 0:29:09.840
<v Speaker 1>in these games. Over the past couple of weeks. He'd

0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:12.600
<v Speaker 1>moved in a class of wealth and privilege he'd never

0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:15.520
<v Speaker 1>even seen before, and were fully in the realm of

0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:19.320
<v Speaker 1>my speculation here, But I think he wanted in permanently.

0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:22.680
<v Speaker 1>So now the competition takes on a whole different meaning.

0:29:22.760 --> 0:29:25.680
<v Speaker 1>Right on the field, all those aristocrats are about to

0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:28.520
<v Speaker 1>see what he was made of. Maybe he thought he'd

0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:33.000
<v Speaker 1>impress them, and maybe that all fell apart when he

0:29:33.040 --> 0:29:37.800
<v Speaker 1>saw Jim Thorpe compete. Jim Thorpe is one of the

0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:41.520
<v Speaker 1>greatest athletes of all time. A tall, Native American man

0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:45.120
<v Speaker 1>with a singular ability in football, baseball, track and field.

0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:47.840
<v Speaker 1>He was a natural choice for a decathlon, even though

0:29:47.880 --> 0:29:50.840
<v Speaker 1>he wasn't even intocathlete. He was so green he didn't

0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:53.440
<v Speaker 1>even know how to throw a javelin at the qualifying rounds,

0:29:54.000 --> 0:29:57.880
<v Speaker 1>and yet in Stockholm, seven events in, he was already

0:29:57.960 --> 0:30:01.480
<v Speaker 1>five hundred and seventy nine points ahead of everyone else.

0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:05.520
<v Speaker 1>For three days, Brundage had strained to catch up to

0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:09.080
<v Speaker 1>Thorpe through the pouring rain, in the hot sun, and

0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:11.320
<v Speaker 1>on the last day of the contest, probably in the

0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:13.800
<v Speaker 1>back of his mind he was thinking about the Olympic

0:30:13.840 --> 0:30:17.040
<v Speaker 1>marathon runner who had died earlier that day from sunstroke.

0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:21.040
<v Speaker 1>And out of the decathlon's ten events, the absolute worst

0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:23.760
<v Speaker 1>was up ahead the fifteen hundred meter.

0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:28.280
<v Speaker 3>So these huge guys are running as I'm a fifteen

0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:31.440
<v Speaker 3>nine meter runner, the times they are running are they're

0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:35.360
<v Speaker 3>absurdly slow, like absurdly slow, and they're just in such

0:30:35.400 --> 0:30:37.320
<v Speaker 3>pain and agony and they can't wait to be over.

0:30:37.520 --> 0:30:40.120
<v Speaker 3>And when they crossed the finish line, like it's this

0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:42.760
<v Speaker 3>moment of like just it's just relief. It doesn't even

0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.240
<v Speaker 3>matter if you win, you cross it, you just thank

0:30:45.560 --> 0:30:46.280
<v Speaker 3>god it's over.

0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:50.320
<v Speaker 1>This is really interesting then, because that it's it's embarrassing

0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.800
<v Speaker 1>to do the fifteen hundred Oh, it's modifying and that

0:30:53.960 --> 0:30:58.080
<v Speaker 1>is and what does Avery Brundage date above all.

0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:01.040
<v Speaker 3>Is being embarrassed, right, Soage, if you look at the

0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:05.480
<v Speaker 3>nineteen twelve De Catalon, he's actually doing really well events

0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:08.960
<v Speaker 3>one through eight. He's a speed and strength guy. He's

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:13.000
<v Speaker 3>like comfortably in like seventh, eighth, ninth, place. He's in

0:31:13.080 --> 0:31:14.680
<v Speaker 3>the thick of things. He's not gonna win, but he's

0:31:14.720 --> 0:31:17.480
<v Speaker 3>in the thick of things. He gets to event number nine,

0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:22.280
<v Speaker 3>the javelin doesn't do it. He drops out.

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Jim Thorpe was so far ahead of him that Avery

0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:29.160
<v Speaker 1>Brandage in front of King Gustave and the Baron Pierre

0:31:29.240 --> 0:31:32.720
<v Speaker 1>de Coubertin threw in the towel, or he threw in

0:31:32.800 --> 0:31:36.120
<v Speaker 1>the javelin, or I mean he didn't throw the javelin.

0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:36.680
<v Speaker 1>You get it.

0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:38.280
<v Speaker 2>He quit now.

0:31:38.320 --> 0:31:40.000
<v Speaker 3>He question is why did you drop out in the javelin?

0:31:40.040 --> 0:31:43.480
<v Speaker 3>The javelin is not physically demanding, and the answer is

0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:45.680
<v Speaker 3>he drops out of the javelin because he's terrified of

0:31:45.720 --> 0:31:47.640
<v Speaker 3>the fifty note of Peters, the way they all are.

0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:50.280
<v Speaker 3>He can't face it. It's haunting him. He's on event

0:31:50.360 --> 0:31:52.480
<v Speaker 3>number nine and he knows Event number ten is the

0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:55.960
<v Speaker 3>thing where he will be humiliated before a stadium full

0:31:56.000 --> 0:32:00.560
<v Speaker 3>of spectators. He's exhausted, he's cold, he's tired whatever.

0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:04.400
<v Speaker 1>All those royals he's just met over the last something.

0:32:04.240 --> 0:32:07.080
<v Speaker 3>They're watching and he he's just like, I can't do it.

0:32:07.560 --> 0:32:11.080
<v Speaker 3>And he you know, this man who has sworn to

0:32:11.240 --> 0:32:16.800
<v Speaker 3>uphold an ethic of competition of putting you know, uh,

0:32:17.000 --> 0:32:22.760
<v Speaker 3>effort and courage first and questions of your own ego second.

0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:26.320
<v Speaker 3>That's the Olympus, The whole Olympic model of competition, right,

0:32:26.360 --> 0:32:30.040
<v Speaker 3>the game is that the participation is everything right, the spirit.

0:32:30.280 --> 0:32:32.680
<v Speaker 3>He just betrays it all. He's like, effort, I can't

0:32:32.680 --> 0:32:36.160
<v Speaker 3>do it, and and he just sort of SLINKs away,

0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:42.400
<v Speaker 3>and it's it is It's really impossible to communicate. I

0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:45.920
<v Speaker 3>think how deeply humiliating that is. Because it's your it's

0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:50.000
<v Speaker 3>your ultimate test. Everything is building towards that final moment,

0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:52.080
<v Speaker 3>and he just he just quits.

0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:57.240
<v Speaker 1>Avery Rendage is out of the race. Jim Thorpe goes

0:32:57.240 --> 0:32:58.120
<v Speaker 1>on to win the gold.

0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:02.360
<v Speaker 8>Jim Thorpe was so pre the second place finisher was

0:33:02.400 --> 0:33:05.720
<v Speaker 8>more than eight hundred points behind the greatest margin in

0:33:05.800 --> 0:33:07.240
<v Speaker 8>Olympic the Catalan history.

0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:12.080
<v Speaker 1>But for Brandage, the story doesn't end when he leaves

0:33:12.120 --> 0:33:12.560
<v Speaker 1>the field.

0:33:13.680 --> 0:33:17.120
<v Speaker 9>It's my judgment, after studying his whole career, that I

0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:19.560
<v Speaker 9>think he probably was haunted by it and that it

0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:23.360
<v Speaker 9>had a definite impact on how he dealt with Jim

0:33:23.440 --> 0:33:24.720
<v Speaker 9>Thorpe the greater athlete.

0:33:25.240 --> 0:33:28.640
<v Speaker 1>That's David Marinis, Washington Post editor and author of a

0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:31.520
<v Speaker 1>great biography of Jim Thorpe called Path Lit by Lightning.

0:33:32.200 --> 0:33:34.600
<v Speaker 1>We called him up to talk about Brandage and Thorpe

0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:35.600
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen twelve.

0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:41.200
<v Speaker 9>He clearly was jealous of Thorpe, but he also maintained

0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:47.000
<v Speaker 9>throughout his career this definition of amateurism as something that

0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:51.160
<v Speaker 9>was pure and cannot be tainted in any way. So

0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:55.600
<v Speaker 9>from them throughout the decades, he made that his mission

0:33:56.280 --> 0:33:59.080
<v Speaker 9>to make sure that the money didn't get involved in

0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:03.880
<v Speaker 9>it too much, nationalism wasn't involved in it, that these

0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:07.479
<v Speaker 9>athletes were competing simply for the joy of sport.

0:34:09.920 --> 0:34:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Remember Brundage in Japan at the top of this episode

0:34:12.800 --> 0:34:15.920
<v Speaker 1>making that joke about being the last living amateur.

0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:17.520
<v Speaker 4>Something like the tattooed man.

0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:20.080
<v Speaker 1>You know all that it's a joke with a deeper truth.

0:34:21.280 --> 0:34:23.439
<v Speaker 1>Brundage used to love to point out that the word

0:34:23.520 --> 0:34:28.080
<v Speaker 1>amateur doesn't mean what we think it means beginner or hobbyist. Etymologically,

0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:31.880
<v Speaker 1>it derives from the Latin amatore, which means one who loves.

0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:35.480
<v Speaker 1>It's ironic for such a grim guy, but he believed

0:34:35.520 --> 0:34:38.479
<v Speaker 1>so intensely that sport was for the love of the game,

0:34:38.560 --> 0:34:41.920
<v Speaker 1>not money. It was an Olympic principal a rule, and

0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:46.279
<v Speaker 1>we know how Brundage loved rules. Practically speaking, it meant

0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:49.200
<v Speaker 1>that athletes couldn't compete in the Olympics if they made

0:34:49.239 --> 0:34:50.160
<v Speaker 1>money for their sport.

0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:55.440
<v Speaker 9>That's why when Jim tharb was found playing bush league

0:34:55.480 --> 0:34:59.799
<v Speaker 9>baseball for two seasons, making about a dollar a game,

0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:04.239
<v Speaker 9>the sport that he didn't compete in the Olympics, he

0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:05.200
<v Speaker 9>lost his medals.

0:35:05.760 --> 0:35:08.319
<v Speaker 1>Thorpe had won gold medals for the decathlon and the

0:35:08.360 --> 0:35:11.560
<v Speaker 1>pentathlon in Stockholm, but he didn't get to keep them.

0:35:11.920 --> 0:35:14.080
<v Speaker 1>If you look at the official report from the nineteen

0:35:14.120 --> 0:35:18.000
<v Speaker 1>twelve Olympics, everyone ranks one spot higher in the decathlon

0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:22.480
<v Speaker 1>than they ought to because Thorpe got erased from the records. Instead,

0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:24.839
<v Speaker 1>there's this note at the beginning of the results list.

0:35:25.440 --> 0:35:29.360
<v Speaker 1>Mister Thorpe is deserving of the severest condemnation for concealing

0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:32.800
<v Speaker 1>the fact that he had professionalized himself by receiving money

0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:36.920
<v Speaker 1>for playing baseball. The Amateur Athletic Union regrets that it

0:35:37.000 --> 0:35:40.480
<v Speaker 1>permitted mister Thorpe to compete in amateur contests and will

0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:43.759
<v Speaker 1>do everything in its power to secure the return of

0:35:43.840 --> 0:35:47.319
<v Speaker 1>prizes and the readjustment of points won by him and

0:35:47.360 --> 0:35:52.720
<v Speaker 1>will immediately eliminate his records from the books. And decades later,

0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:55.520
<v Speaker 1>when avery Brandage was in control of the Olympic movement,

0:35:55.719 --> 0:35:58.399
<v Speaker 1>it was only his pleasure to enforce that role.

0:35:58.840 --> 0:36:01.680
<v Speaker 9>There were many many attempt to get Thorpe's metals restored,

0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:05.319
<v Speaker 9>and Brundage constantly rejected them and was so jealous of

0:36:05.440 --> 0:36:11.320
<v Speaker 9>Jim Thorpe for decades thereafter that he unjustly refused to

0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:14.120
<v Speaker 9>give back Thorpe's medals after they were taken away.

0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:21.279
<v Speaker 1>So this is the crucial bit about nineteen twelve in Stockholm,

0:36:21.480 --> 0:36:25.120
<v Speaker 1>avery Brandage discovered Olympia a perfect land where he could

0:36:25.120 --> 0:36:28.960
<v Speaker 1>have respect and access and achievement, and there, to his

0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:32.560
<v Speaker 1>enduring shame, in front of everyone who mattered, he violated

0:36:32.600 --> 0:36:35.600
<v Speaker 1>one of its most sacred principles. That quote from the

0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:39.759
<v Speaker 1>Baron de Koper teh struggle over triumph play for the

0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:40.480
<v Speaker 1>love of the game.

0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:45.399
<v Speaker 3>I mean imagine, you know, I think if we had

0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:47.640
<v Speaker 3>to kind of choose one moment in his life as

0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:50.480
<v Speaker 3>being the defining one, it really is that because a

0:36:50.480 --> 0:36:52.120
<v Speaker 3>lot of what we've been talking about, his kind of

0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:56.000
<v Speaker 3>anger and his vindictiveness, it does it's of the sort

0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:59.080
<v Speaker 3>that makes you feel like it's being powered by some deep,

0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:03.560
<v Speaker 3>unconscious shame. Oh yeah, And the first you know, in

0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:06.360
<v Speaker 3>this fallen world that he finds himself in where nothing

0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:11.080
<v Speaker 3>can live up to the Olympics, the first fallen person,

0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:16.160
<v Speaker 3>the central fallen person, is himself, right, even he does

0:37:16.200 --> 0:37:17.520
<v Speaker 3>not live up to the Olympic ideal.

0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Years later, Avery branded wrote about that day, I committed

0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:28.560
<v Speaker 1>an inexcusable error which I was to regret. Ever, after

0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:33.560
<v Speaker 1>this failure to finish the competition was unforgivable.

0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh sport, you are all the.

0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:43.000
<v Speaker 1>So what did Avery Brendan do with that shame? He

0:37:43.040 --> 0:37:46.600
<v Speaker 1>tries to earn his way back into Olympia. He goes

0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:49.440
<v Speaker 1>home to Illinois, He trains harder than ever, he builds

0:37:49.440 --> 0:37:52.040
<v Speaker 1>his empire, and he rises in the ranks of amateur

0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:55.440
<v Speaker 1>sports until he's the president of the American Olympic Committee,

0:37:55.920 --> 0:38:00.440
<v Speaker 1>one step below the International Olympic Committee. And then, finally,

0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:04.920
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen thirty four, Avery Brundage got another life changing

0:38:05.000 --> 0:38:10.359
<v Speaker 1>letter from a member of the IOC. It starts innocuously enough,

0:38:10.880 --> 0:38:15.640
<v Speaker 1>grousing about Irish cyclists trips to Rome, questions of amateurism

0:38:15.920 --> 0:38:19.760
<v Speaker 1>and then in the last paragraph of the last page,

0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:24.400
<v Speaker 1>a surprise, if there is a candidacy from the IOC

0:38:24.760 --> 0:38:28.520
<v Speaker 1>for the United States, the IOC member wrote, cannot I

0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:32.080
<v Speaker 1>then propose you? You are the one who knows most

0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:34.840
<v Speaker 1>of the sports in the US, and you certainly ought

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:38.279
<v Speaker 1>to be a member of the IOC. It was a

0:38:38.360 --> 0:38:43.160
<v Speaker 1>dream come true. But at that exact moment, the very

0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:46.160
<v Speaker 1>foundation of the Olympic faith that Brundage had taken as

0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:48.840
<v Speaker 1>his own in Stockholm, that sport was a perfect world,

0:38:49.000 --> 0:38:51.720
<v Speaker 1>removed from all the politics and corruption of the real one,

0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:54.680
<v Speaker 1>was facing an existential threat.

0:38:55.719 --> 0:39:00.239
<v Speaker 10>In the spring of nineteen thirty three, I had a

0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:05.040
<v Speaker 10>letter from my sports club. You are no longer welcome

0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:08.840
<v Speaker 10>here because you're Jewish Heil Hitler.

0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:13.400
<v Speaker 1>Soon he would face the choice of whether to preserve

0:39:13.440 --> 0:39:17.279
<v Speaker 1>their beauty and honor their principles. The Olympic Games had

0:39:17.280 --> 0:39:20.239
<v Speaker 1>to pull out of Nazi Germany. Wouldn't it be a

0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:26.560
<v Speaker 1>contradiction to have his fairyland, his Olympia there? Or maybe not?

0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:30.960
<v Speaker 1>It depends how closely you read that gold medal winning.

0:39:30.719 --> 0:39:37.359
<v Speaker 2>Poem, Oh sport, you are fecundity. You strive directly and

0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:43.719
<v Speaker 2>nobly towards perfection of the race, destroying unhealthy seed and

0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:57.239
<v Speaker 2>correcting the flaws which threaten its essential purity.

0:39:58.480 --> 0:40:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Revisionist History is produced by me Ben Matta Haffrey, Tolly Emlin,

0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:05.799
<v Speaker 1>and Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor is Sarah Nix. Fact

0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:09.760
<v Speaker 1>checking by Arthur Gomperts and J. L. Goldfine. Original scoring

0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:13.759
<v Speaker 1>by Luis Gara, Mastering by Flawn Williams, Sarah Briguer and

0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:17.759
<v Speaker 1>Jake Gorski. Ode to Sport was read by Ethan Herschenfeld.

0:40:18.239 --> 0:40:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith.

0:40:24.120 --> 0:40:27.480
<v Speaker 1>Special thanks on this episode to Karen Chakerji and Stephen

0:40:27.520 --> 0:40:42.759
<v Speaker 1>when I'm Ben, mattap Haffrey. Oh, before we go, one

0:40:42.920 --> 0:40:44.920
<v Speaker 1>last thing. We couldn't find a home for it in

0:40:44.960 --> 0:40:46.960
<v Speaker 1>this episode, but we really need to be on the

0:40:47.000 --> 0:40:49.800
<v Speaker 1>record with our takes about the portrayal of Avery Brandage

0:40:49.800 --> 0:40:54.000
<v Speaker 1>in the twenty sixteen film Race, specifically the question of

0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:56.080
<v Speaker 1>playing him with a mustache.

0:40:56.480 --> 0:41:00.480
<v Speaker 7>So you watch this movie, this movie, WHOA, This movie

0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:04.400
<v Speaker 7>is so bad and we have most most importantly Jeremy

0:41:04.440 --> 0:41:08.640
<v Speaker 7>Irons as Avery Broontage first off, but.

0:41:08.880 --> 0:41:13.040
<v Speaker 1>One of the most fantastically miscasts. Yes, yes, yes he's Yeah,

0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:16.120
<v Speaker 1>what do they do in in race? Jeremy Irons plays

0:41:16.160 --> 0:41:17.040
<v Speaker 1>him with a mustache.

0:41:17.160 --> 0:41:19.920
<v Speaker 3>It's just like, it's just there's violence to them. And

0:41:19.960 --> 0:41:23.320
<v Speaker 3>he wouldn't Rundage wouldn't have a mustache because the mustache

0:41:23.360 --> 0:41:27.200
<v Speaker 3>is the signifier for a certain kind of dandified elite. Yeah,

0:41:27.480 --> 0:41:31.160
<v Speaker 3>and every Bondage is not dandified.

0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:33.279
<v Speaker 1>If he had a mustache, he would call it a

0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:34.960
<v Speaker 1>flavor saver.

0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:38.040
<v Speaker 3>He's like a guy from the streets of Chicago.

0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:38.480
<v Speaker 8>This.

0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:41.040
<v Speaker 1>I also think part of it about Jeremy Irons is

0:41:41.040 --> 0:41:44.359
<v Speaker 1>I want to like, he's a real weirdo and he's

0:41:44.360 --> 0:41:47.520
<v Speaker 1>got these strange views about incest and gay marriage.

0:41:47.960 --> 0:41:52.359
<v Speaker 3>I mean, taxwise is an interesting one because you see,

0:41:53.160 --> 0:41:55.319
<v Speaker 3>could a father not marry his son?

0:41:58.000 --> 0:41:58.120
<v Speaker 2>Uh?

0:41:58.160 --> 0:41:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Will are laws against incest?

0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:01.439
<v Speaker 2>It's not incest between men.

0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:04.920
<v Speaker 3>I'm just saying the left turn into tax policy.

0:42:06.280 --> 0:42:09.960
<v Speaker 7>He could be, he could be, he could be Sheryl

0:42:10.840 --> 0:42:11.720
<v Speaker 7>not married.

0:42:13.560 --> 0:42:18.120
<v Speaker 1>I just love I think all of that weirdness is

0:42:18.239 --> 0:42:22.080
<v Speaker 1>present in his portrayal of Avery Brandage. Complicated man, but

0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:23.000
<v Speaker 1>not a weird man.

0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:23.839
<v Speaker 7>Not weird man.

0:42:24.280 --> 0:42:26.920
<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, not weird in that way. Yeah. They always

0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:30.120
<v Speaker 3>like it's funny how they get it, you know, and

0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:35.120
<v Speaker 3>what's the Irons version of brandage is less interesting in

0:42:35.200 --> 0:42:39.600
<v Speaker 3>the real brandage. And that's the that whenever Hollywood makes

0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:45.120
<v Speaker 3>that mistake, that's where I lose patience with them.