WEBVTT - The Future of Gender, Part 2 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.160 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:15.520 Forward Thinking. Hey, and welcome to Forward Thinking. I am 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.360 Joe McCormick and I'm Lauren Folcabama. And this is going 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:20.160 to be part two of an episode that we had 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:22.760 to divide in half because it went very long. So 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:25.720 if you have not heard part one of our episode 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:27.560 on the future of gender, it was the one that 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:29.600 came out just right before this one. You should go 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.400 back and check that out first. Yes, and uh, we 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:38.400 we have joining us today, Raquel Willis. Yes, we were 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:43.440 definitely from over achievers. My name is Raquel Willis. I 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:48.000 am a digital publisher here at how Stuff Works dot com, 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.680 and i am also a writer and activist. I'm glad 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.120 to be here. We are so glad to have you. 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.680 So yes, so we're going into part two right now. 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.960 Another thing that is import to look at in terms 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.560 of the role of technology and post genderism is technology 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:09.440 that would allow us to continue the human race as usual, 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.560 even if we got to a point where people were 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:17.600 altering their bodies, say to uh, not necessarily be men 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:20.640 or women in the traditional sense, to be something else, 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.240 to be whatever it is they want to be, right Yeah, 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:25.800 let's let's get out of that headspace and back into 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:30.280 the squishy, squishy meat space because because of course meat, 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:37.200 it's electrical part the body is electrical to anyway, the 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:41.000 ability to control whether, uh and and when and how 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.280 a person wants to have kids is so huge to 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.480 post genderism because of course, for some people, being a 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:52.680 biological father or mother is core to their gender experience, 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:57.040 and for others, definitely never doing that is equally core 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:01.960 to their gender experience. UM So you know, okay, looking 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:07.200 at reproductive planning, which isn't new. UM I just pulled 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.320 up a pretty great article from the Indian Journal of 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.240 Urology that details the use of condoms to prevent STDs 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.680 and pregnancy, and it cites the first known documentation of 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:20.360 a condom from circa three thousand b c e. It 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:26.880 was a goats bladder. Nice. Yeah, modern technology is great, 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:33.880 you guys. Uh. In the more recent past, uh advances 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.000 in materials technology, we don't have to use goat bladders anymore. 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.600 And uh and and biology and hormone therapy have made 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:47.040 contraception and abortion very effective and safe and occasionally even affordable. UH. 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.880 In in the next few years, along those lines, new 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:53.520 forms of male birth control techniques are expected to hit 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:59.640 the public market. Various things that can can either prevent 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.040 erm uh from leaving the vast deference allowing liquid but 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.520 not sperm um to be ejaculated, and also um uh 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:11.800 male hormonal hormonal pills are are kind of sort of 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:16.440 in the works. Um. Then then you've got the fertilization 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.359 half of of baby making um And of course, in 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.880 vitro fertilization is one of those just absolute modern medical 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.080 miracles that increases a person's choice in in how and 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:30.160 when to have children. Um Uh. Donor eggs or donor 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.120 sperm can be combined with your own genetic material. Uh. 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:35.480 You can even have a surrogate of volunteer carry a 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.440 baby to term for you. But all of these methods 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:42.560 involve using someone else's DNA at some point in the process. 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:45.640 So what if you and a partner or partners who 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:49.320 cannot biologically have children together but want to have children 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.840 together uh, also want those children to be a combination 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.760 of your own DNA seems feasible or seems like a 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.600 reasonable thing to to want at the very least, and 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.320 some searchers are are working on methods to create viable 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:08.040 eggs from male tissue and viable sperm cells from female tissue. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:13.360 And it's a it's not really working terrifically well just yet. 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.640 Some some methods are using stem cells and others are 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:19.599 focusing on on other different ways to coke cells of 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.560 one type, like like skin cells into becoming reproductive cells. 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.680 The latter has worked in mice actually, but humans are 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.800 a lot more complex than mice. And uh so you know, 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:35.080 maybe maybe someday it could work on the gestation and 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:39.320 birth end of the spectrum. Uh, there are oh, there's 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.160 there's there's a lot of interesting things going on. There's 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:47.000 um uterus transplants. In a Swedish woman bought a brought 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.279 a baby to term and a transplant and uterus for 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:55.200 the first time. Um the woman was was born with functioning, 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:59.239 functioning ovaries, but no uterus. So, uh, if it's possible 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.960 in a female body, could it some baby possible in 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.640 a male body? Mm hmmm. It's complicated, No one knows 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.640 the but it's hypothetically not impossible. Yeah. And another thing 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.000 that's not impossible is that you might not need a 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.359 body at all. Yes, yes, what about a method for 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.880 bringing babies to term? That doesn't even involve a human carrier. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.280 Researchers have in fact grown embryos for up to fourteen 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.720 days in vitro in in labs. Uh. And right now 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.839 it's it's ethics rather than physics that are dictating the 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.479 course of this kind of research. Um, although really, I 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.320 mean partially because of the ethics of it, no one, 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:40.560 no one knows whether we have the technological and medical 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.080 know how to bring a baby to term in a 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:47.440 holy artificial womb. But of course we use our bodies, 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.320 are gendered bodies for more than just baby making. Um. 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:56.280 You know, there's there's also the physical, your physical appearance, 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.440 how you want to look and and furthermore, how you 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:04.000 want your genitals to be and uh. And there are 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.680 currently some some cultural and medical taboos in our society 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:12.960 about using surgery to change our bodies selectively, like you know, 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.880 like like no one's going to disk someone forgetting facial 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.880 reconstruction after a car accident, But if a woman wants 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:20.960 to change her breast size or a man wants to 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:26.040 change his jawline, people have opinions about that. Oh yeah, 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.760 I guess that is a thing I didn't think about 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.679 contributing to this, but people people are kind of judge 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.040 e about using surgery to change the way you look, 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.680 But that would be a kind of inherent aspect of 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:42.040 post genderism, right likely not necessarily surgery always, but having 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:49.160 various methods of controlling different physical expressions of gender, right right. Uh. 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:53.120 And you know, partially I think this this taboo is 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.440 because of the inherent medical risks involved with with with 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.240 some of these treatments, especially surgery. You know, like you've 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.760 got anesthesia and infection and possible rejection of tissues or 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.640 implants or whatever. But um, I don't know, do you guys? 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:09.279 Another question I wanted to ask you all, like, like, 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.040 do you think that as we improve our medical capacity 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.640 to do these things, like, we will see a greater 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:19.640 acceptance of selective surgeries start happening. Well, you know, the 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:25.280 interesting thing is, I'm actually working on an essay about, um, 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.560 how we kind of think about elective surgeries, cosmetic surgeries 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:33.600 and and things like that. But I I think we 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.560 are going to see a greater acceptance of of surgeries 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.240 and and cosmetic surgeries. Um. I think we're going to 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.000 get to a point where we kind of are more 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.960 understanding of the nuance of choice, right, and that there 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:50.200 can be a lot of benefits even if they aren't 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:55.480 kind of the stereotypical, UM life saving benefits that we 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.360 usually think of. Um. You know, if you think of 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.600 self esteem and think of ways in which it will 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:06.000 make a person, um, just happier to exist, I think 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.240 those can be some very valid benefits. Oh yeah, I'd 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:12.360 argue that those are absolutely life saving benefits. The quality 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.400 of life issues are are pretty important. Yeah, I'm I'm 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.040 feeling hypocritical now. I totally agree with you. But at 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:21.120 the same time I think about it, I've like, I've 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:26.240 totally made fun of people's hair plugs before, um, and 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:30.600 I'm now kind of regretting that. I'm sorry. Well, and 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:35.240 I think that you know, that is not necessarily something 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:39.559 to be apologetic about. UM. I think you know it's human, right, 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.440 It's human that we have our own judgments and and 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:46.880 we have our own kind of meters on what is 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:50.920 a successful or good or or solid surgery and what 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.280 you know, why would you do that? Why would you 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.080 do that to yourself? Right? Either it looks bad or like, 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.800 oh you're so vain for wanting to change your sickle appearance, right, Right, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:03.960 And and of course if you think about things even 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:08.880 as simple as ash tattoos, right, those are permanent changes, 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.240 and and our ideas on that versus surgery may be 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.960 a bit different, a bit different depending on who you're 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.079 talking to. I think tattoos are are a great example 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.400 of the ways that we have well I think really 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.920 fundamentally in the United States changed how we approach that. 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:28.600 I mean, like in the past twenty or thirty years, 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.280 a few decades ago. I think tattoo tattoos, like if 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.080 you weren't in prison or in the military or something 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.880 like that, people would really harshly judge you for tattoos. Uh. 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.480 Now that I don't know, it seems like everybody accepts 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:45.400 tattoos now I never hear really anything about it. Would 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:47.640 you all agree? Yeah? I think that that other than 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.800 for for like like religious purposes, like like some kind 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.280 of traditional concept like that that is that is more 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:58.960 handed down, um than than uh widely pop cultural. Yeah, 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:01.400 everyone's pretty chill with it. Yeah. So, I mean I 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:05.280 wonder if if all different kinds of surgeries and body 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:08.320 modification of all sorts will end up going the way 0:10:08.320 --> 0:10:11.040 of tattoos, where it's just not really a thing people 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.760 bad and eye at anymore. Yeah, and whether I mean, 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:15.680 I feel like whenever you read about that kind of 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:17.680 thing in science fiction, like in like in Hunger Games, 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.160 I don't know if you guys have rested any of 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.560 that media. But but but in the Capital, uh, there's 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.080 a group of people who have chosen to very dramatically 0:10:26.240 --> 0:10:28.720 change their bodies. And it's and it's written about in 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:32.200 this kind of in this very negative way, like as 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.480 though they have like destroyed their own soul through the 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.480 destruction of that flesh kind of kind of thing. But 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:39.560 I but I don't think that's going to be how 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:44.600 it's going to be, right, And and just the I 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.720 think the other contexts right of that is is this 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.560 kind of um indictment of capitalism, right in this idea 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.400 that oh, you know, we've gone so far as a 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:58.440 culture that these things that shouldn't be important to people 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:03.040 are now important because ways in which purport ourselves are 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:08.880 completely unnatural and should be you know, avoided at our call. Yeah, 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.520 how dare we all care about our appearance, which is 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:17.680 only what everyone around us judges a spy? Right, um? Uh? 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.679 And and and getting getting into the parts of our 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:24.520 bodies that most people don't see all the time. I 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.520 wanted to talk for a minute about about penis and 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:33.720 vagina transplants, because the difficulties in creating functional genitals are 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:38.040 are perhaps obviously even greater than the challenges in in 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:43.199 cosmetic surgeries. But we're starting to see really amazing, hopeful 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:47.600 work being done. Researchers have had success in implanting vaginas 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.760 and women who were born without them. They created the 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.240 kind of like a like a scaffold in the lab, 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.560 like a protein scaffold, and then college and scaffold, and 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.800 then grew the tissue into it from the patient's own 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:04.280 samples and then successfully implanted them. Um uh and and 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.720 they're and they're they're functional, they work, they do what 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.040 they're supposed to do. Um. Also, the world's second successful 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.760 penis transplant happened earlier this year. I could talk to 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.920 y'all a whole bunch about that for a while. Yeah, yeah, 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.640 I had. I had a really interesting two days where 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.040 I was covering the topic for a for the video 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.920 show now that we do. And so my entire Google 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:30.120 search history was a fire orble offense at many other companies, 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:36.160 I'm sure, but but but but yeah, currently these these 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.440 options are not being offered to the trans community. I 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.520 think partially because they're still so early in development and 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:47.240 and honestly because of some really unfortunate transphobia in parts 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.480 of the medical community. But UM, but I really think 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:53.480 and and further more personally hope that a few more 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.320 years worth of research and and cultural advancement will see 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.560 these options being made available to more people who who 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.760 wants selective elective surgeries. Yeah, and and you know, the 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.440 thing is is that there actually have been UM a 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:11.600 lot of successes and within the trans community when it 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:16.040 comes to what is typically considered sexual reassignment surgery or 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:21.880 gender reassignment surgery or UM whatever name that there are 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:26.200 so many different names that people use UM for these surgeries. UM, 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.960 but we are really seeing ways in which UM people 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:35.920 are using UM or the actual kind of original materials 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.720 from what everybody a person is born with to kind 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:43.679 of make UM functional genitals that are to their liking 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:47.840 UM so that it can be through different forms of 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:52.320 skin grass things like that. You know, people can grow 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.920 organs on other parts of their bodies and then use 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.880 them in that process. So it's really kind of interesting 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.920 what is being done in the medical community are specifically 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:09.400 around trans healthcare. Yeah, totally. But of course, a really 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.040 interesting option in the future if we're thinking about a 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:16.959 post gender world, is not even uh, not even creating 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:23.400 the traditional normal working of one traditional sex or another, 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.760 but sort of creating all new different ways for your 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.480 body to look and be shaped. Yeah, yeah, yeah, what 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.320 if you don't want normal what if you don't want 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:34.640 a normal penis of regina? I mean, I mean, I 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:36.880 wonder if we're ever going to come around to a 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:40.560 time where there will be a social allowance, like a 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:46.120 societal acceptance of people choosing surgeries that are completely different 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.680 from you know, the good old, good old sex binary. Yeah, 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.040 I know. One I've read about is the idea of 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:57.480 people wanting, for example, androgynous genitalia. Absolutely, yeah, one that 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.520 it's not necessarily one or the other. It's uh, it's 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.880 it's a different thing altogether. Yeah, going along, you know, 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.760 within within the within the gender. And and at that 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.800 point i'd say sexual spectrum. Um, of course, they're they're 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:13.240 a sexuality exists. It's it's not as visible I think 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.720 is a lot of other sexualities right now, but it 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.360 should you know, if that's how people feel, then that 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.160 is a thing that the rest of us need to respect. Yeah. So, 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.920 one other place where biotechnology is going to play a role, 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.520 possibly in in the post gender future if we get there, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.400 is in neuropharmacology and psychopharmacology. So the basic idea here 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:38.640 is there's a lot of controversy over whether broad differences 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.800 in human thoughts and behaviors between men and women are 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.880 biologically determined by sex in the body or socially prescribed 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.440 by culture. I think it's pretty clear that it's some 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:51.560 mix of the two. But to whatever extent, we discover 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:56.000 that some biological factors do play a role in sexually 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.800 dimorphic behavior tendencies, you know, ways that women usually act, 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:05.200 men usually act. Psychopharmacology and neuropharmacology drugs that affect the 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.440 nervous system in the in the mind and mood, should 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.520 allow us to influence these tendencies voluntarily if we wish 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.280 to do so. Um. But we should also say that 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.720 the brain is complex. We're far from having a full 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.720 understanding of the chemical basis in the brain for you know, 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.480 very complex effects like human behavior. However, we do know something, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:29.920 it's just simple example, hormones. Hormones like oxytocin vasa press 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.560 and testosterone estrogen the ones you've heard of before and 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:39.040 so forth, have some suggested linkages with behaviors associated most 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.120 often with one gender or the other, such as maternal 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:46.360 bonding or dominance and aggression and so forth. Um And 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:48.360 this is one area where I think we may end 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.840 up trailing behind others just because of how complex the 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.800 brain is. But as far as technological control goes, we 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.680 don't know in the end what we're going to find out. 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.560 We may end up discovering that biosex diff princes have 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.120 even less control over human behavior tendencies that we now 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:08.360 believe maybe a gigantic part of how we act is 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.480 actually just culturally influenced. Um Or, we may discover that 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:17.120 there are some fairly strong determinative patterns from from the body, 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.800 but we'll be able to counteract them with hormones and 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:24.760 other pharmacological treatments if we so desire. So these are 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:29.679 the factors that we're dealing with. But but but will 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.679 this happen? I mean, and if it, if it can happen, 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.280 is it is it a good thing? Is it a 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.400 bad thing? Is it something we can place a value 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:44.160 judgment on? I mean, if you I think that, just 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:46.320 based on what we've read for this episode, it seems 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.440 to me that if you continue technological trends in biotech 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.160 on the trajectories they're on today, doesn't seem like there's 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.520 any reason we shouldn't be able to live in a 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:01.040 post gender society. Yeah, it seems very very possible, with 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.800 especially depending on how you define it, because in some 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:08.119 ways you could say that some aspects of post genderism 0:18:08.240 --> 0:18:11.320 or not even that dependent on technology is just about 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:13.320 you know, culture and how we talk about things and 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.160 the aspects that are dependent on technology. The technology doesn't 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.639 seem crazy to me. We're not talking about faster than 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.639 light travel or or time travel or something like that. 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.000 It's basically just things that we say on the show 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:27.040 that we're like, yeah, no, that's never gonna happen. Yeah, 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.920 it's not stuff like that. It's stuff that seems very 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:33.240 reasonable to assume that we can do based on extrapolating 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:36.919 trends in in medicine and medical science today, stuff for 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:39.639 which the groundwork has already been laid. Yeah, And it 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.840 also doesn't seem to me that there's any reason to 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.639 think that that postgenderism would I don't know, destroy humanity 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.040 or something like that, Like, I I don't see any 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.480 reason to think that we necessarily always need gendered biological 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:56.800 reproductive organs and male female pairing in order to reproduce 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:00.520 and produce new generations of humans. Yeah, and and furthermore 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:03.840 that yeah, it's it's, it's it's it's neither going to 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.639 be impossible to continue the human species, uh in a 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.159 post gender society, and neither isn't necessarily going to like 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.000 immediately be the matrix with everyone being grown in vats 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:18.919 and harvested for their energy potential. Yeah. Um, the argument 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.520 against um it not being possible. Yeah, no, we've already 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.520 got all that tech. Uh. I I I guess, I 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.000 guess there could be arguments that the current norms are 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:32.560 too culturally ingrained to ever be changed. But but based 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.680 on past changes to the norm and also to the 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.920 current uh interestingly flexi state of society, I think it's 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:46.879 it's pretty obvious that change is possible and furthermore already happening, right. I. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.280 I think even if we kind of, um take a 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.960 step back and look at how we think of each 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.040 other in a gender way, right, Like, Yeah, we still 0:19:56.040 --> 0:20:01.480 have these categories of man, woman, um, non binary folks, 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:05.040 all of these different categories, even that category right is 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:10.560 an element of this kind of move towards post gender society. Um, 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:15.760 but these concepts are becoming less of a hindrance for us, 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:20.720 Like we're building in protections for people based on gender right, 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:25.200 We're building in um ways in which people can kind 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.200 of live however they want outside of these kind of 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.280 historical limited ideas of what a man can do, what 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:35.600 a woman can do, really, what a human born a 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:39.280 certain way can do? Right, Yeah, absolutely, which which brings 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.240 us I mean, it's it's probably pretty obvious from from 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.000 our conversation, even if this is the only episode of 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:47.479 four Thinking you have ever tuned into and don't know 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:50.919 that we generally hold these kind of personal beliefs. Um, 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:53.960 you know, it's probably pretty obvious that we all in 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.520 this room think that this is a pretty good thing, um. 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:01.480 And and the arguments for it being a good thing 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.240 I think are pretty persuasive. Uh yeah, I mean I 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:07.679 think it breaks down to stuff that that's kind of 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.360 hard for people to give rational reasons for disagreeing with, 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:13.920 and that it just would give people more choice over 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:18.000 deeper facts about themselves. Uh, since it's a voluntary movement. 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:19.880 I mean, we'd be talking about a different thing if 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.880 we were saying we should forcibly eliminate gender gender distinctions. 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.560 Oh yeah, that would be terrible. Why why would anyone 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.760 do that? That would be the worst. Yeah, that's that's 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.960 the opposite of the point of all of this. But yeah, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.160 so I don't know. It seems to me so try 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:39.520 to imagine again a society in which a lot of 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:43.159 these norms have been eroded. Uh, that seems to me 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:46.000 possible that it could lead to less discrimination and less 0:21:46.359 --> 0:21:50.919 unequal power balance and a large array of situations. So like, 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:53.480 what would a society look like if, for example, men 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:58.000 were not on average physically stronger than women. Uh. It 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.000 seems hard for me to personally imagine a bad outcome 0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.080 from that change, though maybe I don't have a very 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:13.040 good imagination. I want to be Serena Williams. Uh, there's 0:22:13.080 --> 0:22:16.560 a lot of sort of just basic person to person 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:20.720 evil in the world that takes place essentially only because 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:23.359 there is a man who's a lot stronger than a 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:27.560 woman that he's with. And if that were not often, 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.680 if that were not the standard, Um, it just seems 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:33.040 like that could very easily create a world where there's 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:38.640 a lot less unequal relationships and less interpersonal violence. Right, 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.959 And and so I guess, you know, kind of on 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:44.800 the flip side, right, what speaks to me a lot 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.639 of times is the expanded options for men. Right, Like, 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:50.640 a lot of times we talk about gender and it's 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.520 it's very much what what women need. Right. But you know, 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:57.439 this is a good thing for men to right. Um, 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:01.640 men will be able to kind of and send these 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:06.720 stereotypical ideas of what is okay for them to do. Right. 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:11.000 We can think about parenting, and we can think about 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.359 this idea that we have long had that you know, 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:18.440 fathers aren't as emotionally connected to their families and things 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:20.880 like that. I don't think that's true. I think men 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:27.200 and fathers have always been capable of this very deep 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:31.000 connection on an emotional level to their families and men 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:34.120 to other people. I think that we have just had 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.480 a lot of societal hang ups around what that looks 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:41.440 like and what, um, I guess what we were told 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:44.240 to be comfortable with, of course, and it and it 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:48.160 turns into a physical problem to for for men. Researchers 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:52.160 found that gender roles. The gender roles that men undertake 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:56.440 lead to shorter life expectancies and poor health in some 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:59.320 measures from you know, like like behavior where they they 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:03.640 see doctors less frequently than women, or engage in riskier behavior, 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:06.640 or participate in more military combat or work in more 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:11.800 hazardous occupations. Uh so post genderism could could erase some 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:14.639 of the pressures that lead to those circumstances, or I 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:20.680 guess at least spread the danger around more, you know. Uh, well, yeah, 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:22.560 I mean it could if you're if you're talking about 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:26.320 removing expectations, So it could be maybe you want to 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:30.840 uh display traditionally male sex traits, but you just don't 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:35.399 want to be expected to do the dangerous construction jobs 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:38.399