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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Wait for Shelly. I know that your Center for your

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Speaker 2: Maine Economy puts out these regular newsletters and alerts about

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Speaker 2: particular issues that your organization is working on. And when

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Speaker 2: this guy used a snowmobile to batter a wolf and

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Speaker 2: then took it into a bar and tortured it while

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Speaker 2: on video in front of his drinking buddies, that was

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Speaker 2: just about the limit for anyone, no matter how you

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Speaker 2: feel about wolves.

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Speaker 3: Right, Oh, I mean to run over an animal with

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Speaker 3: a seven hundred pound machine, just as an act of malice,

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Speaker 3: crushing the animal, injuring the animal a young adolescent female grievously,

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Speaker 3: and then to take possession and to be smiling and

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Speaker 3: parading the animal around later in a bar. I mean

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Speaker 3: it's masochistic. I mean it's rather, it's not massacres. It's

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Speaker 3: a sadistic And the truth is, George, the guy's got

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Speaker 3: a mental health issue. And we know that people who

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Speaker 3: commit acts of animal cruelty are inclined to repeat them.

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Speaker 3: They're inclined also to exhibit violence toward people. You know,

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Speaker 3: if someone like that is behaving that way, I wouldn't

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Speaker 3: feel very safe if I were a spouse or a

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Speaker 3: child in that household. And we see it all the time,

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Speaker 3: a correlation between domestic violence and animal cruelty. This is

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Speaker 3: animal cruelty. Animal cruelty doesn't justify the domesticated dog or

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Speaker 3: a domesticated cat or a horse. It also applies to

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Speaker 3: wild animals.

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Speaker 2: What happened to that guy. I mean, for a long time,

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Speaker 2: it looked like they were just going to let it go.

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Speaker 2: There are there charges.

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Speaker 3: Pending, charges are pending. I credit the district attorney in

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Speaker 3: Sublet County. After quite a long time, he pulled together

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Speaker 3: a grand jury and this man, Cody Roberts, was indicted.

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Speaker 3: I'll note that he was a trophy hunter of mountain lions.

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Speaker 3: He used packs of dogs, he was very familiar with

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Speaker 3: killing wildlife, and very unsporting and kind of intentionally cruel

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Speaker 3: way is, and you know, people said that he was

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Speaker 3: violent toward other people. There was one report that he

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Speaker 3: almost you know, beat a man to death in a

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Speaker 3: bar at one point. So you're dealing with people who

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Speaker 3: are a menace to society. This is why our slogan

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Speaker 3: at the center of remain economy and animal wellness action

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Speaker 3: is helping animals helps us all. When we're good to animals,

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Speaker 3: we create a better society. If someone can abuse and

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Speaker 3: misuse their power in this way against an animal, cause

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Speaker 3: him to suffer just for their amusement or for some

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Speaker 3: kind of sick pleasure, that's the real indicator. George, you

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Speaker 3: know this issue so well. You've done so much reporting

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Speaker 3: on this issue with Channel eight in Las Vegas through

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Speaker 3: the years. You know that more than half of the

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Speaker 3: young men who were school shooters. Animal cruelty is part

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Speaker 3: of the file. When we allow people to do these things,

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Speaker 3: we are just waiting for them to explode in some

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Speaker 3: oilar setting and hurt other animals or worse people, children, wives, girlfriends.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this all runs together. And for those people

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Speaker 3: who say animals don't matter, wake up. You know they

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Speaker 3: are our equals in terms of their capacity to suffer.

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Speaker 3: They suffer just like we suffer. They have lives that

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Speaker 3: matter to them. To kill them for no good reason

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Speaker 3: is sickening, it's revolting. It's out of alignment with our traditions.

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Speaker 3: In America, the first anti cruelty laws were passed in

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Speaker 3: the eighteen thirties. All fifty states have anti cruelty laws.

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Speaker 3: The goal for any thinking rational person is to logically

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Speaker 3: apply anti cruelty standards. And when you think about that,

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Speaker 3: that's why this man, Cody Roberts and Wyoming should be

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Speaker 3: convicted of a felony active animal cruelty for what he did.

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Speaker 2: You know, think about these states Idaho, Montana, Wyoming alone

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Speaker 2: ask a big, wide open spaces, wilderness areas, room enough

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Speaker 2: for plenty of people and wolves and cows. And yet

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Speaker 2: those are the places that they seem to want to

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Speaker 2: kill wolves the most. I've seen protests marches where guys

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Speaker 2: are carrying signs in favor of more more deaths of wolves.

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Speaker 2: They're all already authorized to kill like ninety percent of them.

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Speaker 2: I think in those states in the past they've shot

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Speaker 2: them out of helicopters. They can bait them and trap them,

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Speaker 2: and you know, put something right outside of a place

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Speaker 2: like Yellowstone and loure them mountain shoot them. I saw

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Speaker 2: a sign that one guy was carrying's hands smoke a

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Speaker 2: pack a day, meaning you know, kill a whole pack

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Speaker 2: of wolves that you can get away with it. You

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Speaker 2: shoot one wolf, you could kill a pack. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you could starve the pups that are that are left

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Speaker 2: behind waiting for their parent to come back. It's unimaginable cruelty.

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Speaker 2: I think that people just don't think about Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now, I think that these people try to attach a

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Speaker 3: social benefit to what they're doing. Oh, we're protecting people

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Speaker 3: from attacks, even though there have been no attacks on

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Speaker 3: people by wolves in the lower forty eight States in

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Speaker 3: one hundred years. They say that, oh, they're a threat

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Speaker 3: to livestock. When you have a relative handful of animals

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Speaker 3: being killed by wolves that you can deter by using

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Speaker 3: guard dogs and other methods. We also can selectively kill

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Speaker 3: individual problem wolves rather than just randomly kill animals in

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Speaker 3: the wilderness who are not bothering anybody and who are

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Speaker 3: bringing ecological services to those areas. So I think, as

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Speaker 3: a matter of psychology, George, people try to excuse their

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Speaker 3: animal cruelty acts by attaching again some value to their

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Speaker 3: work when it's really something else at work. And I

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Speaker 3: really think that these people think of the wolves or

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Speaker 3: the mountain lions as competitors. They think of themselves as predators.

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Speaker 3: They think of these non human predators as competitors, and

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Speaker 3: they want to wipe them out. I mean, they won't

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Speaker 3: be satisfied until they're basically all gone or they're just

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Speaker 3: you know, congregated in a national park and non on

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Speaker 3: national for US, non on Bureau management lands, certainly non

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Speaker 3: in private property. Again, seven thousand wolves in the entire

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Speaker 3: two billion acres of the United States of America. We

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Speaker 3: have three hundred and forty million people. Seven thousand is

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Speaker 3: a tiny number. It's about the number of pandas in China,

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Speaker 3: and we think of them as highly endangered.

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Speaker 4: And I know you're gonna want some them after hearing this.

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Speaker 4: This is an amazing story. We've got Steven and Malachi

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Speaker 4: Gregory in Nelson, New Zealand. I understand that Malachi, who

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Speaker 4: is eight almost nine years old now, was suffering with

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Speaker 4: not just one or two warts, but I mean as

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Speaker 4: significant outbreak of warts all over his body, so significant

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Speaker 4: it impacted his ability to really function.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he was having trouble even holding a pencil a

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Speaker 5: to right Epici's book. Actually, they got me thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not surprised.

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Speaker 4: It is an amazing Ammuino modulator, So I can see

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Speaker 4: that it would work. And so at what point did

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Speaker 4: you see that there was actually improvement? It's really going

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Speaker 4: to work well.

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Speaker 5: We really started to notice it around twelve weeks. You

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Speaker 5: can see these things actually getting smaller and smaller and

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Speaker 5: then going down to with just little red monks. The

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Speaker 5: whole things are gone and we're talking about what's you

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Speaker 5: know one the size of the warner.

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Speaker 1: I thought, no.

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Speaker 5: Way, that's gonna Wow. That's just been miraculous to see

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Speaker 5: them get into a pair of shoes.

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Speaker 4: Yes, how wonderful.

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Speaker 5: It's great to see. I'm so happy and yes.

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Speaker 4: Opt it absolutely wonderful.

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Speaker 1: Friends that have seen it, that is blown away.

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Speaker 4: TI, this is awesome.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is awesome.

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Speaker 6: Another amazing story. Why we're talking about Carnivora. Call them

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Speaker 6: to awaken your immune system and protect yourself now called

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Speaker 6: one eight sixty six eight three six eighty seven thirty five.

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Speaker 6: That's one eight six six eight three six eighty seven

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Speaker 6: thirty five. Or visit carnivora dot com c A r

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Speaker 6: niv O r A carnivora dot com.

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Speaker 2: I remember in your book The Maane Economy you wrote

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Speaker 2: some years ago about how businesses that have cruelty built

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Speaker 2: in they're not going to make it, and that you know,

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Speaker 2: it makes economic sense to care about animal welfare issues,

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Speaker 2: and Yellowstone is an example. I mean, I've seen these

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Speaker 2: studies where their tourism went up by tens of millions

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Speaker 2: of dollars because people want to go there and hear wolves,

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Speaker 2: howlan and the wilderness.

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Speaker 3: George, we love our dogs, you know. It's two thirds

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Speaker 3: of American households have them. Most of us who have

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Speaker 3: dogs in our lives. So if we're fortunate enough to

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Speaker 3: have them, treat them as members of the families. How

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Speaker 3: could you want to protect a dog and recognize their

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Speaker 3: attributes They're smarts, see what or an amazing creature the

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Speaker 3: dog is, and then have a completely different attitude about

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Speaker 3: the wolf. They're both canines, they're both beautiful, they're both smart,

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Speaker 3: they're both social. I don't get it from a kind

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Speaker 3: of rational perspective. I get it just from kind of

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Speaker 3: a deep psychological perspective and human fears, basic human instincts

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Speaker 3: which can be overcome and should be overcome. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is one of the things that separated humans from

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Speaker 3: other animals, frankly, is that we have sociability. We can

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Speaker 3: live in a community of five thousand people, or ten

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Speaker 3: thousand people, or one hundred thousand or a million. Chimpanzees

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Speaker 3: and other animals don't have that level of sociability, and

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Speaker 3: that was always kind of a limit on how they

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Speaker 3: could change their environment and how they could organize their communities.

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Speaker 3: We humans are remarkable, We are exceptional. We are distinct

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Speaker 3: in so many ways. But one of the ways that

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Speaker 3: we're distinct is we have rationality and reason in space,

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Speaker 3: and we have logical thinking. But none of that is

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Speaker 3: in evidence when you have people who are massacring wolves

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Speaker 3: out of some irrational fear that's not grounded on any

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Speaker 3: practical basis and just amounts to hatred being unleashed. And

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Speaker 3: that's the only thing you can say about what's happening

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Speaker 3: in Wyoming, where it's legal to run animals like wolves

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Speaker 3: over with snowmobiles, where you can chase them with packs

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Speaker 3: of dogs and set up an animal fighting situation where

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Speaker 3: you can use next there so you can hunt them

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Speaker 3: at night. There is there are no protections in Idaho

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Speaker 3: and Wyoming outside of the national parks. I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: three hundred and sixty five days a year. The wolves

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Speaker 3: don't deserve this treatment, they really don't.

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Speaker 2: What can your organizations do, what can regular people do

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Speaker 2: to affect what's going on with wolves? I guess pressure

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Speaker 2: on the USDA, and that's that program you know that

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Speaker 2: seems to be impervious to political pressure. Republican Democrat administration

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Speaker 2: doesn't seem to matter. They just keep going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we have sued the government to block the delisting.

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Speaker 3: So by supporting groups like the Center for Humane Economy

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Speaker 3: and Animal Wellness Action, you enable us to hire attorneys

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Speaker 3: where we can make the case in court show that

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Speaker 3: the government's violating the law, that seven thousand wolves scattered

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Speaker 3: across vast areas with so many threats, people poaching them.

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Speaker 3: You know, these hunting and trapping programs, the damage control programs,

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Speaker 3: they're not secure. So that's why we keep winning at court.

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Speaker 3: But we also have to block federal efforts in Congress

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Speaker 3: to remove the protections for wolves in the northern Great

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Speaker 3: Lake States and some of the other interior West states.

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Speaker 3: So Lauren Bobert passed the bill very narrowly. If we

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Speaker 3: had thousands more Americans contacting the representatives, we could have

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Speaker 3: defeated that bill. It's now in the Senate. We need

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Speaker 3: people to contact their US senators. Don't have the Congress

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Speaker 3: cherry pick of species off the list of threatening a

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Speaker 3: dangered species. It's supposed to be a science based process

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Speaker 3: where you're evaluating the numbers and looking at actual scarcity

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Speaker 3: issues and the connectivity the populations, their viability and the

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Speaker 3: long run. And that's not happening when you have people

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Speaker 3: like Representative Bobert and others just repeating these irrational views

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Speaker 3: about wolves that oh, they're marauding livestock, they're cold blooded killers.

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Speaker 3: There's much more to the situation than this, and there

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Speaker 3: are many more threats to livestock like sheep and calves

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Speaker 3: than wolves. Other wild animals are much more dangerous. No mind,

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Speaker 3: all of that's dwarfed by weather and disease.

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Speaker 2: So much of this going on on public lands outside

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Speaker 2: of the national parks. I mean, the same issues that

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Speaker 2: you and I have talked about before with wild horses

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Speaker 2: on millions and tens of millions of acres of public land.

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Speaker 2: You know, thousands of wild horses versus millions of cattle

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Speaker 2: horses are seen as some invasive species that might have

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Speaker 2: come here from Mars or something. While you know, do

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Speaker 2: you remember all those prehistoric cows, the giant herds of

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Speaker 2: prehistoric cows that roamed across North America got neither do I?

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Speaker 2: We brought him here from somewhere else. But cows are

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Speaker 2: pre eminent, and wolves, horses. Now bison, you know, we

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Speaker 2: almost pretty much wiped out bison. Now I've seen this

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Speaker 2: recent ruling by b Alemit. Yeah, bison, we don't have

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Speaker 2: really room for them. We need to have room for

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Speaker 2: cows out there. Public land should be for all the public.

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Speaker 3: It's intolerance, George, right, And you asked a question early

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Speaker 3: on who's driving this. I mean the ranchers are, and

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Speaker 3: you know there are many responsible ranchers in the United States,

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Speaker 3: and you know, it's hard work. There's nobility in the

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Speaker 3: profession in many ways. But it's also not their land.

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Speaker 3: It's the public's land. And we have other values than

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Speaker 3: just raising a very small percentage of cattle on these

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Speaker 3: public lands. It's it's about two percent of all cattle

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Speaker 3: raised in the United States are on these vast tracks

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Speaker 3: of Western lands, two hundred and sixty million acres of

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Speaker 3: them land, a bunch of the US Forest Service land,

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Speaker 3: the National Forests about one hundred and ninety million acres.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's some you know, other federal lands that

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Speaker 3: they're grazed on. It's like we're killing the wild horses.

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Speaker 3: We're killing the wolves. We're not allowing the bison to

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Speaker 3: be there because we just exhibit this intolerance. We haven't

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Speaker 3: learned from our nineteenth century massacre of all these species.

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Speaker 3: We denuded our landscape of the animals who were the

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Speaker 3: native species. I mean, you had sixty million bison in

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Speaker 3: the midsection of the country, you know, between the Great

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Speaker 3: Plains and the Rockies, and you know, we have a

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Speaker 3: remnant population of those animals. We have, you know, seventy

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Speaker 3: or eighty thousand wild horses. When you look at the

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Speaker 3: historical populations on these lands of tens of millions of

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Speaker 3: bison and millions and millions of elk and deer, we've

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Speaker 3: got just the smattering of these animals on these lands,

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Speaker 3: and we're arguing that there are too many or we

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Speaker 3: can't tolerate them. It's just our arrogance, it's our territorialism,

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Speaker 3: it's our inability to cope and live with other species.

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Speaker 3: You know, we have a million to two and a

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Speaker 3: half million species on this planet. We have a small

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Speaker 3: fourteen mile life zone. If you look at the biotic

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Speaker 3: community in this vast universe, the community of life that

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Speaker 3: we know about that we can document. It's just fourteen miles,

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Speaker 3: seven miles below sea level and seven miles above where

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Speaker 3: the highest birds fly, and where you have animals who

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Speaker 3: can live in the extreme depths of the ocean. This

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Speaker 3: is fourteen fourteen miles of life in this universe, this

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Speaker 3: solar system. You know, it's three point five billion miles

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Speaker 3: to Pluto, it's two hundred and thirty thirty four thousand

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Speaker 3: miles to the Moon, and we just have a little

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Speaker 3: vertical zone of life. Can't we tolerate somebody's animals, who

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Speaker 3: in riches world, who entertain us, who amuse us, who

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Speaker 3: inspire awe in us, who we snow deliver incredible balance

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Speaker 3: in nature and ecological services. I'm just shocked at the

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Speaker 3: intolerance of people.

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