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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 3: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 3: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 2: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, how are you? Paul?

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Speaker 3: I am doing very good. What's been going on with you?

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Speaker 1: I've been watching a lot of TV.

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Speaker 2: You know, for someone who has about seven jobs and

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Speaker 2: two kids and parents and friends, I watch an incredible

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Speaker 2: amount of television, usually at four or five in the morning. Wow,

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Speaker 2: and I watch don't true crime? I watch a lot

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Speaker 2: of true crime. I like grifters, I watch murder. You know.

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Speaker 2: The whole thing, which is how my career started is

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Speaker 2: I wanted to write books about war for a very

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Speaker 2: long time Civil War American Revolutionary War, and a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine finally just said, do you watch true crime?

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Speaker 2: Why don't you just write about true crime? And I

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Speaker 2: thought maybe I should do that, and I know that's

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Speaker 2: a different way to get into it. Yours is a

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Speaker 2: much more natural transition, I think, you know, because of

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Speaker 2: your job into our genre. Do you watch TV or

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Speaker 2: listen to shows at all?

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Speaker 3: You know, when I was younger, I did watch, you know,

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Speaker 3: some true crime shows. It's hard to explain, but I've

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Speaker 3: got my own cases, so it's tough for me to

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Speaker 3: sit down and consume another case that's just for entertainment purposes.

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Speaker 3: And it's not like I haven't you know, I watched

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Speaker 3: the night Stalker series, you know, in terms of the

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Speaker 3: investigation into catching Richard Ramirez, and I thought it was,

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Speaker 3: you know, fairly well done. And I know those two detectives.

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Speaker 3: In fact, Gil Coreo and I have become somewhat buds

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Speaker 3: over the past year with some of the events that

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Speaker 3: we've been at together. But to sit down, because I

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Speaker 3: have people hitting me up all the time about all

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Speaker 3: these true crime cases and what I think about them,

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Speaker 3: and I just don't have that mental energy to sit

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Speaker 3: down and consume that content at the level I need

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Speaker 3: to to form opinions. I save that mental energy for

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Speaker 3: when I am working a case, whether it is for

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Speaker 3: a show, for a podcast, or where I'm still consulting

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Speaker 3: with law enforcement. I don't even read novels right now.

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Speaker 3: You know. It's something I need to get back into

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Speaker 3: doing because I enjoy them. But I just got to

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Speaker 3: where it just was too taxing, you know, in terms

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Speaker 3: of splitting my attention between the cases and reading, I

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Speaker 3: just decided to all focus in and read the case files.

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Speaker 2: I do quite a bit of reading, but some stories certainly,

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Speaker 2: of course, we have to do a love research, and

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Speaker 2: I have to do a love reading for our show.

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Speaker 2: I do like to read a lot about the latest

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Speaker 2: forensic things that are happening, are the latest techniques or

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Speaker 2: in this case, what we have coming up is about

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Speaker 2: false confessions. I've read a lot about false confessions. I

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Speaker 2: find it really interesting. And there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: shows out there, true crime shows that are committed completely

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Speaker 2: to false confessions. How much do false confessions come up

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Speaker 2: for you?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, at least within the cases that I worked,

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Speaker 3: because I focused in on unsolved cases, and there are

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Speaker 3: instances in some of these unsolved cases in which somebody's

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Speaker 3: coming in and making a false confession, or an associate

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Speaker 3: of that person is pointing the finger saying he told

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Speaker 3: me he's responsible for her death right and that the

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Speaker 3: details and the investigation showed that that's just actually wrong.

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Speaker 3: But I can say, like legitimately right now, I'm involved

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Speaker 3: in a false confession case. It's an innocence project case,

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Speaker 3: and I do believe that it is a false confession,

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Speaker 3: and through an assessment of the crime scene, I can

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Speaker 3: show how that is a false confession and it's lacking

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Speaker 3: the necessary details that the killer would naturally divulge in

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Speaker 3: order to be able to say I committed this crime,

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Speaker 3: and that the interviewers should have pursued during the initial

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Speaker 3: interviews because it's obvious stuff that this guy should know

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Speaker 3: about this, and they failed to do it.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: When we talk about confessions in this case, we'll see

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Speaker 2: if it lines up with your idea of how you

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Speaker 2: can tell approximately whether this is a false confession in

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Speaker 2: one of your cases or not. So this story takes

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Speaker 2: place in eighteen ninety five in Virginia, So let's go

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Speaker 2: ahead and set the scene. Let's be atmospheric, because I

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Speaker 2: love being atmospheric. It's just before dusk in the summertime,

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Speaker 2: eighteen ninety five in rural Lunenburg County, Virginia, which I've

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Speaker 2: never been to. And I'm going to just take a

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Speaker 2: wild guess and say, you have also never been to

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Speaker 2: Lunenburg County, Virginia.

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of it. If I was there, it

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Speaker 3: was a place I passed through and didn't know where

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Speaker 3: I was at.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I love Virginia. I think it is a

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Speaker 2: wonderful place to be, and I've done several stories in Virginia,

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Speaker 2: so I like to set the scene just because I

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Speaker 2: think it's such a beautiful area and this is summertime,

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Speaker 2: which I'm sure is lovely. It's June fourteenth, right before dusk,

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Speaker 2: as I said, And this is a story where we

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Speaker 2: talk about false confessions, but race also matters. It's an

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Speaker 2: unusual time period after the Civil War, and this is

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Speaker 2: a time period where this area of Virginia is actually

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Speaker 2: a lot more integrated than you might think. It will

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Speaker 2: not be at some point later in the future, but

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Speaker 2: for right now. When there's a crime that occurs, you

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Speaker 2: will oftentimes have white residents and black residents try to

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Speaker 2: come to the rescue. At the same time, they're supporting

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Speaker 2: each other's neighbors and friends. So it feels like this

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Speaker 2: very unusual time period. But when you hear more about it,

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Speaker 2: you'll see what I mean. There are a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who try to help in this situation. It is

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Speaker 2: almost night time in the summertime in Virginia, and we

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Speaker 2: are on a farmhouse, where I feel like we find

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Speaker 2: ourselves in the eighteen hundreds, an awful lot in farmhouses

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Speaker 2: or on rural property. I think because these are cases

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Speaker 2: that are they feel very unusual, like a violation of

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Speaker 2: innocence and the countryside of the quiet. And I've told

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Speaker 2: you that, you know, I grew up in a farmhouse

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Speaker 2: and I was just scared to death of the countryside

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Speaker 2: at night. It was so quiet, nothing but moonlight and

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Speaker 2: stars and really creepy, which I loved, but creepy for me.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that's why I gravitate towards these

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Speaker 2: kinds of stories that just feel like we're not in

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Speaker 2: a big city. It just feels so startling, like a

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Speaker 2: huge violation.

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Speaker 3: It dawns on me from just you think about the

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Speaker 3: volume of crimes in a big city, any one crime

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Speaker 3: just kind of gets lost in the numbers, versus you

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Speaker 3: have in this rural location. You have one crime, and

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Speaker 3: if it's unusual, I'm sure it just stands out to

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Speaker 3: the residence and there's a lot of concern. But here

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Speaker 3: you're painting almost what sounds like this idellic picture being,

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Speaker 3: you know, in a farmhouse in the middle of the

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Speaker 3: night and the stars and you're getting reaped out by that. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're afraid of the boogeyman or the monster coming out

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Speaker 3: of the shadows, aren't you?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely? I am.

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Speaker 2: And my stepmother was no help when I lived out there.

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Speaker 2: She would just spook me constantly about how you know

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Speaker 2: I talk about that in the ghost club, and how

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Speaker 2: haunted our farmhouse was. And one Halloween she took the

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Speaker 2: chain off of her chainsaw and started the chainsaw house

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Speaker 2: side my window. It's endearing now, but I don't think

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Speaker 2: it was when I was twelve. Yeah, literally, So I

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Speaker 2: also think that the idea of the countryside and the

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Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds, where you know, a man's handshake was all

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Speaker 2: you really needed. You also have people in the countryside

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Speaker 2: we think of as not high risk victims versus people

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Speaker 2: in Manhattan, New York or Chicago in this time period.

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Speaker 2: And we do have one non high risk victim in

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Speaker 2: this case.

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Speaker 3: And when you think about an offender out in a

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Speaker 3: rural location, you don't have the population to blend into.

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Speaker 3: In addition, this type of location the victim pool because

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Speaker 3: they are, as you said, they're somewhat isolated. You know,

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Speaker 3: they're creeped out at night, you know, the Boogeyman's going

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Speaker 3: to come in the middle of the night. I imagine most,

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Speaker 3: if not everybody living in this community probably has the

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Speaker 3: shotgun by the front door. Yeah, you know, so that

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Speaker 3: elevates the risk to an offender who wants to do

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Speaker 3: bad things.

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Speaker 2: But I can also tell you the front door is unlocked.

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Speaker 2: There's no lock on the door. I grew up with

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Speaker 2: no lock on the door in the countryside, and in

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Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds they wouldn't have either. But you're right,

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Speaker 2: they probably would have had a gun. So this is

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Speaker 2: nighttime and we're on the Pollard's farm and the Powers

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Speaker 2: were a couple that was not particularly unusual. There was

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Speaker 2: an age difference between them. Edward, who was the husband,

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Speaker 2: was seventy two and his wife was fifty six.

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Speaker 1: Her name was Lucy.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you how she was found, because Lucy

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Speaker 2: is our victim in this case. She's been slain halfway

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Speaker 2: between the house and the chicken coop, which is just

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Speaker 2: a short walk away, and Edward is the one who

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Speaker 2: was the one who discovered her. He was working at

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Speaker 2: a nearby farm as a farmer, and he does not

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Speaker 2: see his wife being attacked. He doesn't hear a call

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Speaker 2: for help. He probably would have been able to hear that,

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Speaker 2: you know, if it were some blood curdling scream.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't that far away.

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Speaker 2: But he is the one who discovers her body right

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Speaker 2: before nighttime, and he sees her he sees all of

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Speaker 2: this blood and I'll tell you about injuries in a minute.

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Speaker 2: He runs inside the house. He does a quick scan

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Speaker 2: to see if there's anything out of place, or if

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Speaker 2: there's somebody in the house. What's happening? Why is my

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Speaker 2: wife dead? Between the house and the chicken coop? And

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Speaker 2: then he does something that I love bringing up little

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Speaker 2: historical markers here. He runs to a bell and it's

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Speaker 2: the kind of bell that I had growing up on

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Speaker 2: my farm where you know it said the dinner bell

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Speaker 2: to call the kids in. He rings the bell frantically.

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Speaker 2: To people in the countryside in the eighteen hundreds, everybody

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Speaker 2: knew what that meant. There was like a Morris Code

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Speaker 2: sort of with bells.

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Speaker 1: There was the.

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Speaker 2: Bell, you kids need to get back inside. There's the bell,

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Speaker 2: it's dinner time, and the frantic bell is and it's

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Speaker 2: an emergency and so everyone comes running. And I thought

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Speaker 2: that that was really interesting, just to bring up that

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Speaker 2: there were ways of alerting people, just so that everyone knew.

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Speaker 2: There's obviously no phones or anything like that, and if.

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Speaker 1: You scream, you might not be heard.

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Speaker 2: But if you bring in one of those big bells

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Speaker 2: long enough and hard enough, everybody's going to hear. So

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Speaker 2: anything about that emergency tactic.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, well that's fascinating. I didn't know about this

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Speaker 3: bell system. But think about today. You know now with

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Speaker 3: home security systems. Let's say the house alarm goes off.

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Speaker 3: How many people pay attention to that and go running

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Speaker 3: to the house with the house alarm going off? Nobody does, right,

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Speaker 3: So obviously there was greater community involvement at that point

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Speaker 3: in time because they recognize that that was something that

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Speaker 3: somebody had to manually be doing. That versus inadvertently tripping

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Speaker 3: because you set your alarm and you accidentally open the

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Speaker 3: front door.

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Speaker 2: Yep, and boy, there is a pretty big response. So

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Speaker 2: when the neighbors come running, there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who report to the scene. Black neighbors, white neighbors,

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Speaker 2: who all come together and you know, this seems like

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Speaker 2: a big emergency. When they arrive, they find Edward. He's

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Speaker 2: described as gray eyed and stricken. He's in shock, and

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Speaker 2: reportedly he lies down beside his wife's body, which is

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Speaker 2: just steps from their front door, all through the night

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Speaker 2: until dawn. Do you judge people who could be suspects

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Speaker 2: at the scene of the crime. How much credence do

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Speaker 2: you put into Boy, he's not behaving the way a

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Speaker 2: grieving husband should behave, or he's overreacting, or that nine

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Speaker 2: to one one call sounded really over dramatic.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe in any of them?

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Speaker 3: I definitely pay attention to it. Now we know and

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Speaker 3: I've seen this. You know where people respond to trauma differently,

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Speaker 3: you know, whether be very grief stricken and screaming and

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Speaker 3: you know, collapsing. I've seen that level of response. But

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Speaker 3: then also individuals that seem this person seems a little

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Speaker 3: too calm for what I would expect. It's just something

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Speaker 3: to pay attention to, and sometimes it ends up being, oh,

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Speaker 3: the reason they're so calm as well, this wasn't a

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Speaker 3: big traumatic event for them. And we've had cases that

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Speaker 3: we've talked about where sometimes the actual killer plays up

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Speaker 3: acts grief stricken when they in fact are the ones

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Speaker 3: that have been involved in the death of a loved

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Speaker 3: one or whatever. So, yeah, you know, but the laying

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Speaker 3: down next to his wife's body, though, that's an interesting

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Speaker 3: behavior I know of some case is out of my jurisdiction,

253
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Speaker 3: not cases that I've been involved with, but I know

254
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Speaker 3: about in which the family member or associate of the

255
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Speaker 3: person killed did a similar act, not for that long,

256
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Speaker 3: but that was part of their emotional, you know, kind

257
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Speaker 3: of last connection with this person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Another odd thing that I want to pick your brain

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Speaker 2: about a little bit here is when Lucy is found,

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Speaker 2: she's just a few steps from her house and her

262
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Speaker 2: feet they say, this is odd, pointing towards the northeast

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Speaker 2: corner of the house. That's not the odd part. That

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Speaker 2: detail is a little weird to me, but that's not

265
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Speaker 2: the odd part. The odd part is that her eyes

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Speaker 2: are wide open. Now she has been killed with an axe.

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Speaker 1: Ye do those two things? Tally?

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Speaker 2: I have no idea why somebody is found with their

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Speaker 2: eyes closed or with their eyes wide open. Is that

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Speaker 2: like a muscle thing when they die or what happens?

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Speaker 3: You know? I actually don't know what the phenomena is.

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Speaker 3: But I've seen it both ways. I've seen many, many

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Speaker 3: dead bodies whose eyes are wide open, and I would

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Speaker 3: say that's more typical. But I've also seen the dead

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Speaker 3: bodies with the eyes completely closed, and maybe a pathologist

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Speaker 3: would be able to answer what is going on there,

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Speaker 3: But I don't have an answer for it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, it strikes the media and the eighteen hundreds

279
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Speaker 2: is very creepy that her eyes are wide open, and

280
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Speaker 2: there's of course blood everywhere. So there's a historian name

281
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Speaker 2: Suzanne Websock who wrote a book called a Murder in

282
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Speaker 2: Virginia that's very comprehensive about this story. She describes a

283
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Speaker 2: very gory and gruesome scene. So this is what she

284
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Speaker 2: writes in the book. There are three predominant pools of blood.

285
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Speaker 1: In the yard.

286
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Speaker 2: Each one is eighteen inches from the other. The largest pool,

287
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Speaker 2: of course, is underneath Lucy's resting body. She has defensive wounds,

288
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Speaker 2: which are multiple gashes also on the left side of

289
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Speaker 2: her face, and her head cuts on her arms, left

290
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 2: ear was almost chopped off, and it's reported that her

291
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 2: glasses are knocked sideways with one of the lenses punched out.

292
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Speaker 2: And there are several broken eggs strewn about the yard.

293
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Speaker 2: So we're assuming she made it all the way to

294
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Speaker 2: the chicken coop, gathered some eggs, and then was attacked

295
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,080
Speaker 2: on her way from the chicken coop, just almost into

296
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Speaker 2: the house. When she's attacked. This is a scene eighteen

297
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 2: inches apart. Three pools of blood. They find the axe,

298
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Speaker 2: which is the family's axe. It's the Pollard's axe. So

299
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Speaker 2: she's had multiple times with this axe, and she's moving.

300
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Speaker 2: Is that why there are three pools of blood in

301
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Speaker 2: the yard?

302
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Speaker 3: Yes, the moving. Now, when you have the pools of blood,

303
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,800
Speaker 3: this is where you have a bleeding source at that

304
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,440
Speaker 3: location for a period of time to cause the blood

305
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 3: to pool there. Now, I can't tell you how long

306
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,800
Speaker 3: that is because you don't know how fast the blood

307
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:58,200
Speaker 3: is actually flowing if you will at any particular location. Now,

308
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,120
Speaker 3: part of the evaluation of these pools of blood is

309
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,359
Speaker 3: are they distinct? Are there dripped patterns in between leading

310
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Speaker 3: from one to another? Where now you can sequence Okay,

311
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Speaker 3: this pool of blood is where she was first, to

312
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,919
Speaker 3: the second one to the third one. It also indicates

313
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Speaker 3: that there is a upwards elevation of whatever the bleeding

314
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 3: source is between pools of blood. Now is this because

315
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,159
Speaker 3: the victim herself was able to move or is the

316
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,760
Speaker 3: offender moving the victim? That's part of assessing. I mean,

317
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 3: many people dismiss pools of blood, but they can be

318
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:38,320
Speaker 3: very very important to help establish sequence of events and

319
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,280
Speaker 3: offenders actions at the scene. Now she has defensive wounds.

320
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Speaker 3: You know, she is warding off being attacked. So this

321
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,680
Speaker 3: is she's at least early on in the attack recognizing

322
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Speaker 3: she's under threat and is trying to protect herself. But

323
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Speaker 3: at a certain point she is completely either overpowered or

324
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Speaker 3: you know, the injuries cause her to be able to

325
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Speaker 3: not defend herself any further, which sometimes could be due

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Speaker 3: to loss of consciousness with a device like an axe,

327
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Speaker 3: it's just like with a gunshot. Sometimes there's injuries that

328
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,000
Speaker 3: are so devastating that the victim who's still conscious but

329
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,320
Speaker 3: can no longer move her limbs or other parts of

330
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Speaker 3: the body just due to the types of injuries.

331
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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about limbs, because that's an interesting point.

332
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Speaker 2: She has all of these injuries all over her body.

333
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,680
Speaker 2: Ear almost chopped off, glasses knocked around everywhere, broken eggs

334
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Speaker 2: all over the yard, so ambushed on her way back home.

335
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Speaker 2: As we said, here's what's weird. She's on her back,

336
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,240
Speaker 2: her eyes are open, and her hands are neatly laid

337
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 2: on her breast, presumably by the killer, not in a

338
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:54,200
Speaker 2: sexual way, in a just a neatly composed way. Edward,

339
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,200
Speaker 2: the husband and the neighbors who respond, No one says

340
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,239
Speaker 2: we did it. They found her life like that. So

341
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 2: we're presuming that this happened before brigamoris sets in. The

342
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,359
Speaker 2: killer had to have done it right, or would she

343
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,360
Speaker 2: have ever naturally done that herself.

344
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 3: No, it's weird. This is a form of posing. Why

345
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,680
Speaker 3: is the killer doing that? There can be a variety

346
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 3: of reasons. Sometimes this type of posing is a form

347
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 3: of haunting, you know, in terms of I have you know,

348
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 3: accomplished this, and now I am you know, manipulating the

349
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,479
Speaker 3: body in order to be able to basically show that

350
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,920
Speaker 3: I have control here and whoever's finding the body and

351
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,920
Speaker 3: law enforcement. You don't there is in terms of this

352
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,360
Speaker 3: type of posing, with the way that she is being

353
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 3: laid out, almost as if it's like she's in a coffin.

354
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 3: Sounds like, you know, Is that the message that the

355
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 3: offender is trying to pass on is you know, I

356
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 3: have taken her life and this is how she's going

357
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 3: to be Or is this a rest in peace type

358
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:11,480
Speaker 3: of scenario where the offender is in some ways demonstrating

359
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 3: a level of regret and respect to the victim. So

360
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 3: this is part of evaluating. Now, okay, what is the

361
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,639
Speaker 3: offender's true motive by taking this unnecessary action. He doesn't

362
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,639
Speaker 3: need to pose her to accomplish the crime. This is

363
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 3: significant to the offender. Why is he doing it? And

364
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,320
Speaker 3: if it's the latter, then that tells me that he

365
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 3: has some and I'm saying he generally right now, I'm

366
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,199
Speaker 3: just going to assume male offender. I should say that

367
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,520
Speaker 3: the offender has some sort of connection and cares about

368
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 3: the victim. We see this when the offender will cover

369
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,120
Speaker 3: the victim in terms of hiding the victim from his

370
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 3: view because he doesn't like what he's done to the

371
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 3: victim and doesn't want to see it right this posing

372
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 3: right now. I don't know what motive the offender has,

373
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 3: but it's hugely significant. Once the a suspect is identified,

374
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 3: then you start to see a domino effect in terms

375
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,439
Speaker 3: of explaining you know, what the suspect was thinking and

376
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,880
Speaker 3: feeling during the commission and after the post offense behavior.

377
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 3: In terms of what the offender was feeling after this crime.

378
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: Well, a couple of interesting things. I mean, first of all,

379
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 2: I'm keeping my eye on Edward because he's the most

380
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: obvious suspect. He's farming nearby, but there's no real alibi there.

381
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 2: He's out in there, in the middle of nowhere. He immediately,

382
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: if you remember, ran inside the house after he saw

383
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 2: Lucy on the ground. He ran inside the house to

384
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 2: see if there was anything gone. Yeah, there was something gone,

385
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: eight hundred dollars, which in eighteen ninety five was a

386
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 2: huge amount of money. It's about twenty eight thousand dollars now.

387
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: It's their whole life savings, and he hit it. I know,

388
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 2: you want to know where this money is because yes,

389
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,880
Speaker 2: it's important to see if the offender went in and

390
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: snatched this because they knew where it was. It was

391
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 2: in a liquor cabinet, which is unusual, So somebody knew

392
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: where this money was. I just think it's weird that

393
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: Edward's first instinct before he even rang the bell was

394
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,439
Speaker 2: to go in and look to see where that money is.

395
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 3: I think, you know, so, Edward, he's a seventy two

396
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 3: year old farmer, right, yep. My first thought is that

397
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 3: this is somebody who has seen a lot of death

398
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:29,239
Speaker 3: of animals, and so he probably very quickly recognized that

399
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,479
Speaker 3: Lucy was dead. And then the next thought, of course,

400
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 3: was this life savings inside his house?

401
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:37,479
Speaker 2: You know?

402
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 3: Is this why she was killed? One of the details

403
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 3: I need to know is did the offender ransack as

404
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 3: if searching, or did they go straight to the liquor

405
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 3: cabinet and grab this cash.

406
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: This is what's missing.

407
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 2: Investigators after interviewing Edward, after he had calmed down right

408
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: and Lucy was taken away, they say, tell us what's gone,

409
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 2: and he said eight hundred dollars in twenty.

410
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: Dollar bills, which was unusual.

411
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: I can't really think of what I mean, one hundred

412
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 2: dollar bills now or not that unusual? Some obscure denomination

413
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: of bills that would be unusual. Now, twenty dollars bills

414
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 2: were very unusual in the eighteen hundreds. He kept eight

415
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: hundred dollars in twenty dollar bills. He had about seventy

416
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 2: dollars worth of gold, He had a one hundred dollars bond,

417
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: you know, certificate, He had some jewelry. These were all

418
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 2: things that were missing. And he also thought that some

419
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 2: of Lucy's dresses could be missing from her closet. Now

420
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: Edward is also not one hundred percent sure how many

421
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 2: dresses his wife actually owns, but he thought maybe, so

422
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 2: this is a significant amount. It's all in the same

423
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 2: place in the liquor cabinet. So either the person who

424
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 2: broke in got really, really lucky, or they know more

425
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 2: about the farmhouse than the average person would.

426
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 3: Right, And so this is where you know, at least

427
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,199
Speaker 3: one of the suspects, Pools is going to be, you know,

428
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 3: determining who had knowledge about where these valuables were hidden

429
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: inside the house.

430
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: And right now, for me, that's Edward.

431
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: We don't know anything else except this is a guy

432
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: who claims that he found his wife dead and that

433
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 2: he has money missing. There were insurance policies this could

434
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 2: be insurance fraud coupled with murder at this point, we

435
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:25,959
Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, that's a great way to get

436
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 2: rid of your wife and cash in on some insurance.

437
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 3: Well, this is where now it's really evaluating Edward in

438
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 3: terms of his statements. You know, you mentioned that he

439
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 3: didn't have an alibi because he was out, you know, farming,

440
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 3: But of course were there witnesses that saw him out farming?

441
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: Can you start tracking down to be able to correlate

442
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 3: that and assess that based on when he's saying he's

443
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 3: out there versus you know, what does the evidence show

444
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 3: and how long Lucy likely had been dead.

445
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk a little bit more about the relationship

446
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: because then we can kind of get into victimology a

447
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: little bit. So Edward seems to be a good husband.

448
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 2: They seem to have gotten along well. They had both

449
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: been married previously and had then found each other later

450
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 2: in life after losing their previous spouses to natural causes.

451
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: And you know, you had mentioned that Edward at this

452
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 2: time period he would have seen a lot of death

453
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: of animals and certainly if people, people did not live

454
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: particularly long in this time period, I mean into their

455
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,479
Speaker 2: forties maybe, so you're right, I still think it's weird

456
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 2: that he I mean, it's almost like checking on your

457
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: safety deposit box or you're safe before you pick up

458
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 2: the phone and call nine one one. That's how it

459
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: feels to me. But I also try not to judge

460
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 2: too much the way people react in an emergency, because

461
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: I've never had that kind of an emergency before, so

462
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,360
Speaker 2: I don't know how I would react. I would hope

463
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 2: I would ring the bell first, and then I would

464
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 2: check on the money.

465
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't. You know, it is maybe a

466
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 3: little bit concerning. However, right now, I'm not putting too

467
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 3: much weight on that sequence, Okay, you know, just without

468
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 3: having more context in terms of the facts of the

469
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 3: case and background and stuff.

470
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so Edward has a reputation of marrying up, nothing

471
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: wrong with that, but with every wife, he's been married

472
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: three times. With each wife he has acquired more assets.

473
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 2: So Lucy was the daughter of a planter, which was

474
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 2: in Virginia, would have been a lot of money, probably tobacco,

475
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 2: and when they married, he really elevated to high society.

476
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: So this could be another reason, you know that, being said,

477
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: they only have it looks like a little over one

478
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: thousand dollars maybe worth of cash, So they're not millionaires

479
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: by any means in eighteen ninety five. But it would

480
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: not be surprising. I know I keep coming back to Edward,

481
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: but wouldn't be surprising if that was somehow a motive.

482
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: But when the police interview all of their friends and family,

483
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: they said, we have never heard one word about abuse.

484
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,959
Speaker 2: We've never heard one word about acrimony between the two

485
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: of them. He is a curmudgeon, and he is contankerous,

486
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: and he's not always well liked by his peers. He

487
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: loans people money and then of course is kind of

488
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: a jerk about getting the money back. So it wouldn't

489
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: be surprising if you have somebody who's in debt to

490
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 2: him and doesn't want to pay the debt back to

491
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 2: send a message. Or maybe we have the wrong victim

492
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: and Edward was the one who was targeted. Lucy seems

493
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 2: well liked Edward not so much so we could have

494
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: not a mistaken identity case, but a wrong victim case

495
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 2: on our hands here too.

496
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 3: Right now, you know, one of the things I'm wondering

497
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 3: about is at what time, what was Lucy's routine when

498
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 3: she would go to the henhouse in order to get

499
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 3: the eggs. You know, is this o dark thirty? It's

500
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: very dark out. Would an offender be able to plainly

501
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: see her under the whatever conditions are, whether you know,

502
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 3: full moon or if there's any type of lighting or

503
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 3: you know, whatever they're doing. Yeah, But also if Edward

504
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 3: was the victim, I would think even under these dark conditions,

505
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 3: that would be obvious. You know, Edward being a man

506
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 3: versus Lucy would be obvious to the offender. So it

507
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 3: seems like if the offender was targeting a victim, it

508
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: was likely a female victim. And then if it's mistaken identity,

509
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 3: it would have been another female. But then why on

510
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: this particular property? Right, These properties are so spaced out,

511
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 3: it seems like it'd be far stretched for the offender

512
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 3: to go to the wrong location. Right.

513
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 2: What I was thinking was, Okay, it's almost desk. Anyone

514
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: who knows anything about farming knows that probably Edward's heading back.

515
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: If he's out farming, you know, people are coming back

516
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: in for supper and to light the candles and kind

517
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: of get ready for the evening. So he's sort of

518
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: taking a chance. If it's a male, and that's a

519
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: big question in this case.

520
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and that's where I think earlier I said,

521
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 3: even though I was saying he has an offender, it's just,

522
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: you know, that's just by almost nomenclature versus forming an

523
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: opinion as to who the offender is. Yep, you said

524
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: the axe was found, the murder weapon was found. Where

525
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 3: was it found?

526
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: Well, that's also something that's a little nugget of information

527
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: that's interesting. So they find the axe where it always is,

528
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: which is leaning up against a tree.

529
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: It's bloody.

530
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: I'll give you a silly little note that the investigators

531
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: say is that the axe is bloody. But they said, boy,

532
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: but we matched the blade just to make sure, we

533
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 2: matched the blade to Lucy's wounds, and it matched perfectly. Okay,

534
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: nineteenth century forensics. I guess they just took the axe

535
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: and laid it into her wound and figured out this

536
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: must be it, even though it's stripping blood.

537
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: And that's probably not very funny to everybody.

538
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: But I just thought, okay, well, at least you're trying

539
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: to cover your bases out there in rural Virginia in

540
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: eighteen ninety five.

541
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 3: Right, you know, obviously we don't want to see that

542
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 3: type of contamination. But that is something is you know,

543
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 3: this axe with I'm assuming it's the blade, you know,

544
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 3: is that consistent with whatever they're seeing? Obviously that blade

545
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 3: in can produce a wide variety of different types of

546
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 3: wounds and lengths of wounds. But if they have you know,

547
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: full length wound, you know, like the head of the

548
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 3: axe was buried into her skull, now you get somewhat

549
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 3: of a you know, an idea on the length of

550
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 3: this blade, and that they must have seen that and said, yes,

551
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 3: this length of blade on the victim's own residence is

552
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: consistent with what is being done with the types of

553
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 3: wounds we're seeing to her head or to her whatever

554
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 3: part of her body.

555
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: And another note, so you know, I have a little

556
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: column in my head for Edward and against Edward as

557
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: a suspect. Here the seventy two year old husband in

558
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: the This could be Edward column.

559
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: This is his ax.

560
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: So if this is a stranger or somebody coming with

561
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: ill intent, they're using a weapon on the property, they're

562
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: not bringing their own weapon to this and then they

563
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 2: leave it behind, and of course snow fingerprints that they're

564
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: able to pick up. And it's somebody who knows where

565
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: the money and all of these valuables are in the

566
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: liquor cabinet. So again I keep circling back to this

567
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 2: feels like a husband, but that's not where this investigation goes.

568
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: What do you think about using an axe that's on

569
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: the property and just assuming that there's something there that's available,

570
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 2: even though it's always kept there, that is consistent, it's

571
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: always there, no, you know.

572
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: In many instances, offenders rely upon whatever is present within

573
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 3: the victim's residents or on the victim's property in order

574
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 3: to commit crimes. DeAngelo did in Golden State killer case.

575
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 3: He would, of course, he brought his own gun, but

576
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 3: he frequently would grab knives out of the victim's own

577
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 3: kitchen drawers in order to use those to threaten the victims.

578
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: Many offenders do that they use shoelaces from the DiAngelo

579
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: did this too, use shoelaces from the victim's own shoes

580
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 3: as bindings. Let's say this offender is going to the

581
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: victim's property with the intent to kill. Then the offender

582
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: is relying upon their own devices to find something on

583
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 3: the property. And this is a farmhouse. There's probably so

584
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: many different types of implements related to caring for the

585
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 3: animals or related to farming the land, that the offender

586
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: is confident that they will have something in order to

587
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: be able to use with violence. And they walk on

588
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 3: the property and there's an axe leaning up against a tree.

589
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 3: So I don't put really any weight on this aspect

590
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: the offender using the victim's own acts to assess who

591
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 3: the suspect might be. I put more weight on the

592
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 3: offender's knowledge of where the valuables were hidden inside the house.

593
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: Okay, well, let's talk about the people who respond. You

594
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: have both black people and white people responding to the

595
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: frantic bell ringing of Edward that evening. There's a forty

596
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: seven year old black woman named Mary Abernathy. There is

597
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 2: a twenty three year old woman named Pokey Barnes. And

598
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: we have a middle aged black woman whose also.

599
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: Name is Mary.

600
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 2: Her name is Mary Barnes, and Mary Barnes and Pokey

601
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: Barnes are mother and daughter. And this will all become

602
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 2: a little clearer later on. Just know that you've got

603
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: three women who are responding. They're all black, and they

604
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 2: all have worked around the Pollard property. So the forty

605
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: seven year old woman Mary Abernathy had been in the

606
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: Pollard's home the day of Lucy's murder earlier that day,

607
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: and aside from whoever killed her, it seems like Mary

608
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: Abernathy is the last person to see Lucy alive. You know,

609
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: she did some work around the house and then left

610
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: and said goodbye and that's it, and then got you know,

611
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: Pokey Barnes and her mother, and Pokey had been walking

612
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: near the property that day.

613
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: She's twenty three.

614
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: And then Mary, her mother, had been working at the

615
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: home also in the garden area that day. So these

616
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 2: are three women who have all been on the property

617
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 2: in the last day or so, but nobody's a suspect

618
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: right now.

619
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, does Mary Abernathy say when she last saw Lucy.

620
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: Way before she was murdered. But you know, also Edward

621
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: says he's been gone all day long in the farm.

622
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: So we're left with Lucy home much of the day,

623
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 2: either alone or in the company of women working in

624
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: the garden or in the house. So it's kind of

625
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: a busy time. Another person who showed up is a

626
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: white man and his name is Herbert Thompson. His mother

627
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: is a very good friend of the Pollards, and that

628
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: the mother is actually related to Lucy through someone's previous marriage.

629
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 2: And when Lucy's body was edward, Edward wanted Martha Thompson,

630
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 2: the family friend, to come, and she said she couldn't.

631
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 2: When Martha can't come, instead, she sends her oldest son,

632
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 2: Bill Peaches, and he comes in her place. And we

633
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 2: just have various people who are all responding to this

634
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: bell ringing. So the investigators come and there are not

635
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: very many clues. As we've talked about, You've got an

636
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: accet's really bloody. You've got Lucy laying on the ground

637
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: with her arms crossed over her chest, her eyes open,

638
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: lots of open wounds, pools of blood. In two or

639
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 2: three different places, they find two sets of shoeprints which

640
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: begin at a nearby spring and stop about seventy five

641
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: yards from where Lucy was killed. I still get confused

642
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: by this fact. So seventy five yards from where Lucy

643
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 2: was killed, what happened the rest of the way? Why

644
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: are these shoe prints stopping? And to me, that just

645
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 2: means it's useless. What's the point of a shoeprints that

646
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 2: aren't that aren't standing over them? This woman's body, right

647
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: or am I totally misguided here?

648
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 3: Well, what's likely happening is is that from this spring

649
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 3: area there was sufficient soil exposed for the shoe impressions

650
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 3: to be left in. But then as they got closer

651
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 3: to the property, you know, maybe there's grass, there's a lawn,

652
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: there's it's rockier, and now you don't get the distinct

653
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: shoe impressions, or it's it's something that it's fundamentally the

654
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 3: surface is just not recording that information. Now, obviously shoe

655
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 3: impressions right there by Mary's body are much more significant.

656
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 3: But if there is shoe impressions that seem to be unusual,

657
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 3: I'm sure this farmland or this property, there's going to

658
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 3: be all sorts of tracks if you will do just

659
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 3: a normal activity that occurs on this property. But if

660
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 3: somebody's saying, well, these isolated two sets of shoe impressions

661
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 3: leading from the spring that are heading straight to the victim,

662
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 3: you know all what that looks unusual. It is something

663
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 3: that you have to pay attention to. But because of

664
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 3: the seventy five yards of blankness, you know, you can't

665
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: say for sure that they're related to her homicide case.

666
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 3: It's just something that is recorded, it's documented, it's noted,

667
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: and there may be investigative leads that could be pursued

668
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 3: as a result of noticing those, but then they just

669
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 3: kind of peter out, and then you end up focusing

670
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: on other things more.

671
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: Important, right, And that's what happens with these shoe prints.

672
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: They just sort of.

673
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: As a lead peter out because there's a big tip

674
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: that comes in. They think it's a big tip. At

675
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: least about twenty miles away from the Pollard's farmhouse, there

676
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 2: is a man who is looking to buy an inexpensive breakfast.

677
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 2: He's a black man named Solomon Marable. And this is

678
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: where racism comes in, and then we'll talk about sexism,

679
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: because they both are all over this story. And the

680
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 2: racism part comes when Solomon Marble has a twenty dollar bill,

681
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: which we said, is I guess like in one thousand

682
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: dollar bill? Is that even a bill?

683
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: Now?

684
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: I don't know what an unusual bill would be, but

685
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: he is laying down a twenty dollar bill to buy

686
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: a breakfast. And it is not only because he's black

687
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 2: that white investigators think this is unusual. It's because he

688
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 2: looks very unkempt, and the transaction catches the attention of

689
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 2: a lot of people. So when the news reports come

690
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 2: out that say that Edward Pollard is missing eight hundred

691
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 2: dollars worth of twenty dollars bills, investigators put two and

692
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: two together and they don't arrest Solomon immediately, but they

693
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: absolutely take a look at him because they say, what

694
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 2: is this man doing with this unusual denomination which he

695
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: should probably not have to begin with.

696
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: It's twenty miles away when.

697
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 3: You think about I mean, we were talking about we

698
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 3: have eight hundred dollars missing and twenty dollar bills that's

699
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 3: really just forty bills. Yeah, I mean, this is something

700
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 3: that's pocketable. It's very easy to have taken and walked

701
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 3: off with it. It really comes down to was this

702
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 3: an appropriate lead to follow? Well, it really comes down

703
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 3: to is this that unusual? You know, because of course

704
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 3: when money is stolen and now you have bills being

705
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 3: spent in an unusual manner to this day, that's going

706
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 3: to be something that law enforcement's going to pay attention to.

707
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: But how much weight can you put on it where

708
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 3: you have to interview this guy?

709
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 1: Yep?

710
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: What's his background? Why do you have this twenty dollars bill?

711
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 3: Do you have other twenty dollars bills on your person

712
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 3: right now? Was this that same day? Was this the

713
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 3: next morning? Did he have a residence nearby where he

714
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 3: could have if he was the one that stole the

715
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 3: eight hundred dollars, you know, could he have hit the

716
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: rest of the cash within his property? Yeah, So there's

717
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: so many things about how they would have to pursue this,

718
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 3: and the distance twenty miles away. What is his access

719
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 3: to the various forms of transportation that were used back then,

720
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 3: you know, could he have covered that distance relatively quickly?

721
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: Here's some answers. I'm trying to keep track of everything

722
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: you asked. Okay, number one, there's a railway that connects

723
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 2: these two areas that he could have hopped on and

724
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:26,799
Speaker 2: off very easily, inaffordably.

725
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 1: Does he have a record? Yes, he does.

726
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 2: It seems it was reported that two years earlier he

727
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: had been put on trial in North Carolina for the

728
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,799
Speaker 2: rape and the murder of a young girl, But he

729
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: was ultimately cleared of any wrongdoing, which is a little

730
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: surprising for a black man in eighteen ninety five in

731
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 2: North Carolina. So there must have really not been any evidence.

732
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying, for

733
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: a presumably a white jewelry or for a white prosecutor

734
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: to just say we don't have enough evidence, there must

735
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: have been no evidence. After that happened, he and his

736
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: wife got the hell out of North Carolina and came

737
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: to Virginia for a fresh start. But now Solomon is

738
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 2: in trouble because he is a man who seems to

739
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 2: be down on his luck with a twenty dollars bill.

740
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 2: And here's another answer to your question. Four days after

741
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 2: the murder. So not months, This is four days on

742
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 2: a railway. He sounds like if Solomon is the guy,

743
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 2: sounds like he committed the crime, he pocketed the money,

744
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: he hopped on the train, got as far away as

745
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: he could, is hungry, and is using this really suspect

746
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 2: twenty dollars bill to buy a cheap breakfast.

747
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's it's weak circumstances at best, right. Yeah,

748
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, I'm sure the pollards didn't record the serial

749
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: numbers on their cash that they had, you know, so

750
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: there's just no way to say this is a twenty

751
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,959
Speaker 3: dollars bill out of the victim's residence. This is where

752
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 3: they just have to They have to show more, you know,

753
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: they have to do more in order to determine whether

754
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 3: or not he's involved in Lucy's homicide or not.

755
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 2: The police are now looking at two different sets of suspects.

756
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: While there's Solomon, which is the man who has the

757
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: twenty dollars bill when he shouldn't have it according to investigators.

758
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 2: But then they start thinking about this and this is,

759
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: in my opinion, very bad profiling. The police officers and

760
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: all their sexism look at this and say, she has

761
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: been hit too many times with an axe. A man

762
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: would have been able to kill her much more quickly.

763
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: It must have been at least one woman who did this,

764
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: because there are dresses that are missing, and they must

765
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 2: have taken the dresses and the money and hit her

766
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: so many times because they are the weaker sex. And

767
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 2: I just thought, boy, you don't know the women I

768
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: know who could have taken care of someone with one whack.

769
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: I could take care of someone with one whack. So

770
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 2: now you know where I'm going. We have three women

771
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 2: who are black who showed up at the property when

772
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 2: the bell rang, and they become suspects too.

773
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, now I will say, you know part of evaluating

774
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 3: a case, you know, looking at the vic the is

775
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 3: is there any information that can discern and show that

776
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 3: there is great disparity between these two combatants? Right? Yeah,

777
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 3: So you know, if absent any weapons, if I have

778
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 3: great physical difference between the offender and the victim, that

779
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 3: offender often is able to so physically dominate the victim

780
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 3: that it's becomes obvious. Versus if I have two equal combatants,

781
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 3: then the struggle takes longer and there can be a

782
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 3: lot more You know that the crime scene itself, in

783
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 3: terms of where the struggle is occurring, demonstrates that this

784
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 3: offender really struggled to control the victim. Now you introduce

785
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 3: a weapon like an axe, and now it's more evaluating, well,

786
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 3: where are these injuries? Was lucy, you know, struggling? Is

787
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 3: she moving around? Because she's not just laying there taking

788
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 3: the blow. She's obviously got defensive injuries, but she's also

789
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 3: moving around. This is going to also mitigate the effectiveness

790
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: of many of the blows. However, to correlate in this

791
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: particular set of circumstances, to correlate it to the physical

792
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 3: dominance of the offender over the victim is negating the

793
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: advantage that this type of weapon gives the offender. And

794
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 3: most certainly, even though I will assess you try to

795
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 3: discern do I have differences in terms of the physical

796
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,479
Speaker 3: capabilities of the offender versus the victim based on what's

797
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 3: going on, to be able to now correlate it to

798
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 3: the actual gender of the victim starts getting very sketchy.

799
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,479
Speaker 2: Well, and I think it's a combination of too many

800
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: hits to be a man. A man would have been

801
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 2: much more efficient. These dresses that Edward Pollard can't even

802
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,800
Speaker 2: really confirm missing, He's just sort of saying, yeah, maybe.

803
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 2: And the need of the offender to be familiar with

804
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 2: the property in order to know where they kept the money,

805
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: and all three of these women had been on the

806
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:17,919
Speaker 2: property that day. We oftentimes in society are in disbelief

807
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,960
Speaker 2: that a woman could commit this kind of violent act.

808
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 2: So for rule police investigators to just say, oh, yeah, totally,

809
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 2: a black woman could pick up an axe and butcher someone.

810
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: That's a little shocking for the eighteen hundreds. But they

811
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 2: must have just thought they were there. They were some

812
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 2: of the last people to see her dresses might be missing,

813
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: the familiar with the property, and they put them all

814
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: under arrest. All three, two Mary's and a Pokey were

815
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:46,959
Speaker 2: all under arrest.

816
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, they just did a round up.

817
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

818
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 3: But even though they're on the property, that doesn't mean

819
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 3: they know where the valuables are, right, you know? So

820
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 3: of course Edward, okay, Edward, who would have known where

821
00:45:58,560 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 3: these valuables are?

822
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: He says he doesn't now because his wife was in

823
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: charge of all the domestic stuff, So he's not sure.

824
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: I believe he's not sure who knows what. But he

825
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 2: knows that they were on the property, and they certainly

826
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,839
Speaker 2: had more knowledge than the average guy who's coming in

827
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: and trying to.

828
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: Rob a rural farm.

829
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 2: And we know that that, you know, compared to New

830
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: York City, And you kick in a door and can

831
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 2: assume that any flat that you find in New York

832
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundreds will have something in there to steal.

833
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 2: In the farmhouse, you're really taking a big chance that

834
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 2: you're not going to have a large man with a

835
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 2: big shotgun facing you when you open up the door.

836
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: Solomon is in a bad position. He cannot explain where

837
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: this twenty dollars bill comes from. And this is where

838
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: we start wondering the tactics that the police are using

839
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: in questioning, because Solomon is not ratting anybody out as

840
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: far as the police by saying, oh, I've been pressured.

841
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: But boyd, does he have a lot.

842
00:46:55,480 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: Of confessions and changes and implications. He said after some

843
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: discussion with the police officers, he says that he saw

844
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 2: both Mary's and Pokey the three women the day that

845
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 2: Lucy was murdered, and they said to him that they

846
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: had something good in store happening, which means they've got

847
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: a plan that they're cooking up to get some money. Now,

848
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: the women are not owning up to the fact that

849
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: they know Solomon at all, and Solomon can't really say

850
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: that he knows them. He's just sort of saying, oh, yeah,

851
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: I saw them in passing. We are vague acquaintances, and

852
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: they just said, oh, I've got something good cooking up here.

853
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: And then he said that he saw them later that

854
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 2: same night with their hands and clothing covered in blood,

855
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,399
Speaker 2: and for whatever reason, one of the women handed him

856
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 2: a twenty dollars bill. I'm presuming to stay quiet about

857
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: seeing all this blood, He says. I have nothing to

858
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 2: do with the murder, but he's implicating these three women

859
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 2: in a very vague way.

860
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: So then comes to me, is this.

861
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 2: Because the police pressuring him, or he's telling the truth,

862
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 2: or is he just trying to get the heat off

863
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: of him in any way possible.

864
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 3: Well, you know, part of the concern that I'm immediately having,

865
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 3: how does he know about these three women? To begin with?

866
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 3: You know, there's no connection between him and these three women.

867
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 3: And now he's bringing up these three women he's been

868
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 3: fed information yep, and then start evaluating the details later on,

869
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 3: he's now saying that these three women have their hands

870
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: and clothing covered in blood. I will tell you that

871
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 3: the killer walked away from the homicide from Lucy unless

872
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 3: that killer is laying down on top of Lucy and

873
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 3: interacting with her after she's been axed, which is unlikely.

874
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,919
Speaker 3: This killer walked away with very minimal blood on them.

875
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 3: What really most people assume, you see a bloody scene,

876
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 3: that the offender is covered in blood. Sometimes yes, but

877
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 3: oftentimes no. You know, and you think about a homicide

878
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 3: with an axe. An axe allows you to strike fatal

879
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 3: injuries on the victim from a distance, and you know,

880
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 3: of course, with multiple blows you have potential cast off

881
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,879
Speaker 3: from the axe. But that might produce a few blood

882
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: droplets dropping down on the offender. If the offender is

883
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 3: standing over Lucy and hitting her multiple times with the axe,

884
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 3: you know, there's a chance that you could have some

885
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 3: spatter low down. But there's no reason this offender is

886
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 3: going to have super bloody hands or blood covering their clothing,

887
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 3: you know. And that's where when I'm assessing Solomon's statement

888
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 3: and saying these three women were covered in blood, I

889
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 3: was like, no, that doesn't make sense the way that

890
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 3: I'm understanding this crime scene and why all three women,

891
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 3: Like did they all three jump on top of Lucy

892
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 3: after she had been you know, axed? That seems very unlikely.

893
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 3: So this is where now I'm evaluating, just with the

894
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 3: little bit that you've told me, the veracity of the

895
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 3: information that Solomon is providing the investigators. And I'm kind

896
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 3: of going, this is bs.

897
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: There is no physical evidence connecting the women. They are

898
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: all arrested along with Solomon. Solomon I think thinks he's

899
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 2: doing himself a favor by fingering these women, and it

900
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. All four of them are under arrest. They're

901
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 2: trying to connect all four of them. There are no

902
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 2: real suspects who are white, and the investigators are really

903
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 2: trained pretty heavily on these four black suspects. They go

904
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: on trial, no attorneys will represent them, which is not

905
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 2: at all surprising to me. In eighteen ninety five in

906
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: rural Virginia. So Pokey, who is one of the defendants,

907
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 2: one of the women, she's the twenty three year old

908
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 2: Poke Barns. She has some really good legal savvy and

909
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: she manages to solidify her alibi in court by bringing

910
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 2: in friends who say she was with us, and she

911
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 2: is able to have it verified where it seems believable.

912
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 2: And still the prosecution is going after them by coming

913
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: back and saying, well, this is what Solomon says, and

914
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 2: we have this witness who says he saw blood. We

915
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 2: believe that part, but we also think that Solomon participated

916
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 2: in this. So they start bringing up incidences that have

917
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 2: happened between the women and Lucy Pollard.

918
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: That sounds like.

919
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 2: Pokey had some bad blood. According to courtroom summaries. In

920
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 2: the August before the murder, so that was the year before,

921
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 2: Lucy had chastised Pokey from coming back on to her

922
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: property because she thought that Pokey was stealing her vegetables,

923
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: and Pokey had said to someone that if she ever

924
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 2: saw Lucy Pollard in the road, she'd shoot her. Now

925
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 2: this is ten months before the murder happens. That being said,

926
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 2: there are people who saw Pokey on the property when

927
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 2: obviously Lucy had told her I don't want you on

928
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: the property. So this is just something to consider when

929
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: people issue threats. I'm not saying that Pokey did any

930
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: of this, or these three women did this, but doesn't

931
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: it to you add a little bit more of like

932
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: a hum to this situation if she has made these threats.

933
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, if Lucy is telling Pokey stay off my property,

934
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 3: and Pokey had made, you know, the statement, that's indicating

935
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 3: that she does not like Lucy, And it's probably just

936
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,480
Speaker 3: a statement, you know, to emphasize how much she doesn't

937
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 3: like Lucy. You know, if I see her out, I'm

938
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 3: going to shoot her. But it establishes that there is

939
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 3: a contentious relationship between these two. And if Pokey is

940
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 3: on Lucy's property the day of her homicide, of course

941
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 3: you're going to pay attention to that. You have to.

942
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: Solomon is having some pretty big issues.

943
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 2: These three women went on had different trials, and he

944
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: testifies at each woman's trial, and his story changes at

945
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 2: every trial. So at Mary Abernathy's trial, he says that

946
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 2: the women actually told him a week in advance that

947
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 2: they were going to kill Lucy, and then at a

948
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: different trial, he says that he actually held down Lucy

949
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 2: while the women murdered her. So he's putting himself at

950
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 2: the scene. I have no clue what Solomon's doing. I

951
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 2: have to either assume that he is having some mental

952
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 2: health issues and doesn't know what he's saying, or that

953
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 2: the police are pressuring him or the district attorneys are

954
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 2: pressuring him to change up his story, depending on who

955
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: he's testifying against.

956
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 3: Right, But this again, now here, if you have Solomon

957
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 3: who is putting himself at the scene at the time

958
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 3: of the homicide, this is where it's like, Okay, tell

959
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 3: us step by step what happened to Lucy and what

960
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 3: did these women do? And then the investigators have to

961
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 3: evaluate all of those statements against the physical evidence, the

962
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 3: crime scene reconstructive aspects to say, yes, this is adding up.

963
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 3: We've got to account for the three blood pools. Okay,

964
00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 3: is Solomon indicating that there was this movement of lou Ucy,

965
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 3: either herself or by the offenders, by these women, to

966
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 3: account for the different locations where Lucy is leading, you know,

967
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 3: also the defensive injuries. How many times was the axe use?

968
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 3: Who's using the axe? Where were they standing while they're

969
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 3: striking Lucy with the axe? How did they initially approach Lucy?

970
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 3: Did they sneak up behind her initially hit her with

971
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 3: the axe? And then all that has to be correlated

972
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 3: with Lucy's injuries, the blood patterns, all of that.

973
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is really complicating things because then his story

974
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 2: changes again. He says at Pokey Barnes's trial, actually, the

975
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: women had nothing to do with this. I'm going to

976
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 2: take partial responsibility, but it wasn't them. It was a

977
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,320
Speaker 2: white man who made me do this. And he's actually

978
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 2: consistent with this one story. He's inconsistent when he talks

979
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 2: about the three women, but he's consistent when he talks

980
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 2: about this mysterious white man. So let me lay out

981
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 2: everything and you tell me if it makes sense, because

982
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,880
Speaker 2: I will give you a little preview here. The historian

983
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: who wrote about this says, if there is a version

984
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: to be believed, she believes this version, not that the

985
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 2: women did it. Not that Solomon did it on his own,

986
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 2: but that there was someone else who was familiar with

987
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: the property who instigated all of this. This is what

988
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 2: Solomon said, really happened, had nothing to do with the women.

989
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 2: He testifies, this white man stopped me while I was

990
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: on my way to the sawmill near Fort Mitchell, and

991
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: he held a pistol to my face, threatening to kill

992
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 2: me if I didn't go with him. He asked me

993
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 2: if I knew anybody in that part of the country,

994
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 2: and specifically mister Pollard. I told him I didn't know

995
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,359
Speaker 2: hardly anybody. He then told me to come with him,

996
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 2: that he, the white man, had a grudge against mister Pollard,

997
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 2: and that he was planning to kill mister or missus Pollard. Okay,

998
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 2: so that's the build up to this. And remember Pollard

999
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 2: is kind of a jerk, and he's loaned out money

1000
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 2: to people and is you know, said I need my

1001
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 2: money back, and he just seems like an unpleasant person.

1002
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 2: Solomon says that he was scared, of course, and he

1003
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 2: follows the white man as instructed. He remembers that they

1004
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: soon arrived at the spring.

1005
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: Now I don't.

1006
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 2: Believe the police had ever released that information, remember the

1007
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:21,720
Speaker 2: footprints at the spring. He turned toward the Pollard farm

1008
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 2: once they got to the spring, and once outside the farmhouse,

1009
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 2: Solomon said, the white man confronted Missus Pollard outside and

1010
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 2: told Solomon to restrain her. He the white man, mysterious

1011
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 2: white man grabs an axe, and he says, I held

1012
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 2: her until the white man came, and he took an axe,

1013
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: and he hit her over the head with the handle

1014
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 2: of the axe and then hit her with the back

1015
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 2: of the axe and with the blade.

1016
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: And killed her.

1017
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,439
Speaker 2: Solomon said that after Lucy was dead, the white man

1018
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 2: forced him to go inside the house, and the man

1019
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 2: found a key unlocks some kind of container or box.

1020
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 2: Solomon says, I don't know anything about this house. I've

1021
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 2: never been inside of it. I think that's what it was.

1022
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: And he retrieved the money he handed Solomon to twenty

1023
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: dollars bills, and he threatened Solomon's life if he ever

1024
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: told anyone what happened. And then the white man said,

1025
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 2: here are the names of three people to blame if

1026
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 2: you need to implicate somebody, if you're caught in any way,

1027
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 2: I know it's a crazy story, then bummy, what do

1028
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 2: you think?

1029
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 3: Well, it's obviously you know this unnamed white man. It's

1030
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 3: a stupid thing to include somebody you don't know, can't

1031
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 3: trust nor control in the future, to be involved in

1032
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 3: a homicide. But let's say this guy was stupid enough

1033
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 3: to do that. Yeah, what of course is catching my

1034
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 3: attention is Solomon mentioning basically a reason for the trails

1035
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 3: of two shoe impressions leading from the spring to the house.

1036
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 3: And if this was not something made public, and if

1037
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 3: it was not something fed to him by law enforcement,

1038
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 3: then that's hugely significant. Now he's also you know, he's

1039
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 3: giving detail in terms of how the homicide occurred. And

1040
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 3: again it's like, Okay, I want to make sure that

1041
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 3: the details of what he's saying about the violence inflicted

1042
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 3: on Lucy adds up with the physical evidence. But the

1043
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 3: other significant thing is he's saying, I've never been inside

1044
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 3: that house until I went in there, because it's man

1045
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 3: had me going there. Now the interviewer needs to be going, Okay, Solomon,

1046
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 3: I know you're not familiar with the house, but tell

1047
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:27,840
Speaker 3: me what you did see. And if Solomon is providing details, well,

1048
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 3: there was a sofa, red colored sofa over to my right,

1049
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,439
Speaker 3: and there was this cabinet that the guy went into,

1050
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 3: and it was described like this. You make him recount

1051
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 3: as much details that he can remember, and if it

1052
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 3: adds up to the inside of the Pollard's residence, that

1053
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 3: is significant. And that's when now I say, okay, now

1054
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 3: Solomon is telling the truth.

1055
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 2: Well, the way this unfolds is fascinating for me, because

1056
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 2: this is so convoluted and all of the different scenarios

1057
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 2: are so confusing, mostly because of Solomon. And the way

1058
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 2: this lays out is once this new version of the

1059
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 2: white man making him do this comes out into the press,

1060
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 2: both black and white Virginia say hell no, this is

1061
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 2: so stupid. The women should not be on trial. There's

1062
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 2: a kind of a in some ways a general agreement

1063
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 2: that there is not enough evidence against these three black women.

1064
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: Now that there's this new story out, how can you

1065
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 2: believe Solomon about anything? So it doesn't matter. They still

1066
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: put the women on trial. They have better defense attorneys

1067
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 2: this time around, and they have various different outcomes to

1068
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 2: are acquitted in one turn some time, and ultimately Solomon

1069
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 2: is put on trial and eventually he is executed. Now

1070
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if there's enough real evidence against Solomon.

1071
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: This twenty dollar thing is weird, But I don't think

1072
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 2: he would be convicted now, do you, because there really

1073
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 2: is no evidence other than the twenty dollar bill that

1074
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 2: he anything at this point except make up a bunch

1075
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 2: of stories.

1076
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 3: It really does, you know, come down to this last

1077
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 3: statement related to this unknown white male. That is where

1078
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 3: the investigation has to try to corroborate, to refute everything

1079
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 3: he is saying in that and actually locating, trying to

1080
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 3: locate physical evidence. Now, if what he is saying is

1081
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 3: the truth and he is holding Lucy while she's being

1082
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 3: hit with the acts, he is a participant in her homicide.

1083
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 3: I mean that's so obviously he's he would be criminally charged,

1084
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 3: but with just the possession of the twenty dollars bill,

1085
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 3: And I think with these statements in this day and age,

1086
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 3: I would say they need to do more in order

1087
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 3: to make a case against him. But in essence, he's

1088
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 3: making him a suspect in her homicide. But they also

1089
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 3: need to identify this white male. I kind of wonder,

1090
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 3: was this white male Edward? So did Edward hire somebody,

1091
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 3: you know, this black man in order to try to

1092
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 3: throw a law enforcement off from him. But how does

1093
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 3: he avoid this Solomon, you know, picking him out and saying, well,

1094
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 3: that's the guy that hired me. And then the interview

1095
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 3: of Edward has to be Okay, there's a white man

1096
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 3: who is so mad at you over debt that he

1097
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 3: is the one that there's possible allegations that that's the

1098
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 3: reason Lucy was killed. Who could that be? That white

1099
01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 3: man should be readibly, you know, somebody that Edward would go,

1100
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 3: that's somebody who doesn't like me because of X, Y

1101
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 3: and Z.

1102
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 2: You know.

1103
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 3: So did they ever identify this white man?

1104
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: Well sort of.

1105
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 2: So Solomon before he was executed, identified this man as

1106
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 2: a man named David James Thompson. The thing with David

1107
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 2: James Thompson is that he had an alibi. He was

1108
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 2: at work. Four other men cooperated the alibi. It doesn't

1109
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 2: seem like he's likely there are other people around. For instance,

1110
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 2: the historian who wrote the book that we talked about,

1111
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 2: she wonders about Martha Thompson, the friend Lucy's friend's son

1112
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 2: who showed up. He would have known about the layout

1113
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,439
Speaker 2: of the farmhouse, she thinks. The historian thinks it's really

1114
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 2: weird that Martha would not have come but sent her

1115
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 2: son instead. And you know there is this sort of

1116
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 2: mystique around him, like, you know, is he Anirdwell, we

1117
01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 2: don't know anything about him except he is a white

1118
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 2: guy who would have known about the space inside the house.

1119
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 2: It was weird that his mom didn't come, who was

1120
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 2: one of her closest friends, and that he came instead.

1121
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:35,040
Speaker 2: That seems incredibly weak. But again we don't know. There's

1122
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:36,919
Speaker 2: just not enough information either way.

1123
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this really, I mean again, it comes down

1124
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 3: that this is where the crime scene is so informative

1125
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 3: about you know, who the offender might be. And if

1126
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 3: this offender is going into this house and going straight

1127
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 3: to the liquor cabinet, it's not like drawers are being

1128
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 3: pulled out and they're searching. If literally they go straight

1129
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 3: to where the cash and the valuables are and walk

1130
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 3: out of that house, that person has knowledge, yep. And

1131
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 3: then it's how does that person have knowledge? Who did

1132
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 3: the pollards in trust with that knowledge? Whether it be

1133
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 3: Lucy or Edward, that's a suspect. Pool. Did they have

1134
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 3: people that would come in to clean this location? Is

1135
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:22,560
Speaker 3: their family that could potentially have knowledge and who could

1136
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 3: have obtained maybe second hand knowledge, because that's sometimes what

1137
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 3: happens is that somebody is talking and saying, oh, the

1138
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 3: Pollards they have a ton of cash in the liquor cabinet,

1139
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 3: and then somebody goes, well, I'm going to go get that,

1140
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 3: and they run across Lucy in the process of going

1141
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:40,280
Speaker 3: and getting that. You know, right now, this man what

1142
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:41,439
Speaker 3: was his name, the white man.

1143
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 2: There's two Thompson's that are important, David James Thompson and

1144
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 2: his brother Herbert Thompson. And here's what's interesting about them.

1145
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 2: They're both in debt, and they're in debt to Edward

1146
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 2: Pollard to a certain extent. They also are just in

1147
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 2: debt in general. And David James took out a twenty

1148
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 2: four hour loan on the exact day that Lucy was

1149
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 2: murdered that he had to pay back the next day.

1150
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 3: But he's the one that has an alibi, right, But.

1151
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 2: His brother didn't. The brother was the one who responded.

1152
01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 2: So here's the thing that's confusing. Solomon points to David

1153
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 2: James Thompson and says he's the one who did it.

1154
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 2: David James says, I've got an alibi. But the historian

1155
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 2: wonders if Solomon mixed up the brothers because the police

1156
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 2: never pursued Herbert. But these two guys are in debt,

1157
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 2: a lot of debt, more than just the eight hundred dollars,

1158
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,240
Speaker 2: But eight hundred dollars would have helped.

1159
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 1: You know.

1160
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 2: The historian found out Lipsock is her name. She found

1161
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 2: out that Edward Pollard was among the many people who

1162
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 2: had loaned Herbert Thompson the money. So actually, one of

1163
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 2: the things that I think is important with this story

1164
01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 2: is consistency. And let me give you the stats that

1165
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 2: Maren had looked at that I thought was really interesting.

1166
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 2: When we have Solomon, with all of these false confessions,

1167
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 2: telling these stories over and over and over again. Solomon

1168
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 2: implicated these three women eight times over a period of

1169
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 2: five weeks, but the testimony was inconsistent every time he

1170
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 2: told the story about the three black women. But the

1171
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 2: story about the white man who could be one of

1172
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 2: the Thompson's, probably Herbert Thompson, was consistent all the way through.

1173
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 2: Nine versions of that white man's story were recorded over

1174
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 2: a period of eleven months, and most of them were

1175
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 2: after these trials, after the women got off or served

1176
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 2: a little bit of time. And that was it and

1177
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 2: before he was executed, So he was consistent with the

1178
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:35,160
Speaker 2: white man's story. He was inconsistent with the black women's story.

1179
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 2: He's inconsistent just in general because he keeps recanting. But

1180
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 2: if we're going to believe something, two brothers in debt

1181
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 2: who are in debt to Edward Pollard, who know probably

1182
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 2: the layout of the inside of the farmhouse, who know

1183
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 2: there's an axe there, seem like pretty good suspects. And

1184
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 2: I know, it seems crazy to think one of them

1185
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:58,360
Speaker 2: would just pick up this stranger, this black man on

1186
01:05:58,400 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 2: the road and say you have to do this.

1187
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 1: But boy, just.

1188
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 2: Twenty or thirty years after the Civil War, it wouldn't

1189
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 2: shock me at all that he was just simply viewed

1190
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:08,919
Speaker 2: as property, like you're going to do what I say,

1191
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 2: because that has what happened for so long, So that

1192
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 2: wouldn't surprise me at all, and that they could sufficiently

1193
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 2: scare him to be quiet.

1194
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 3: Sure, you know, I think you know. The important aspect

1195
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:25,160
Speaker 3: is in Solomon's statement related to the circumstances of how

1196
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 3: he and the white man approached the house, how Lucy

1197
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 3: was killed, how the white man and Solomon went into

1198
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 3: the house and grabbed the valuables. The details seemed to

1199
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 3: add up with the factual aspects of the case, you know.

1200
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 3: So that's where obviously a prior to those statements, he's

1201
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 3: trying to implicate these three women, and that's well law

1202
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:50,919
Speaker 3: enforcement had focused on those three women. So that's where

1203
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 3: it seems like there probably was some undue influence by

1204
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 3: the investigators to get Solomon to point the finger at

1205
01:06:58,040 --> 01:07:02,600
Speaker 3: the three women. And his inconsistent and see is showing

1206
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 3: that he's not remembering details. He's made details up or

1207
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 3: has been told details that he's now forgetting and is

1208
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 3: trying to substitute each time he has to tell this

1209
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 3: version of events. If Solomon's statements are right, and he's

1210
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 3: he is involved with holding Lucy while she is being

1211
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 3: hit with the acts, if he's going in to rob

1212
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 3: the Pollard residence during the commission of a homicide, then

1213
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 3: he is absolutely culpable for the crime. But there is

1214
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 3: still an outstanding offender, a white male, that law enforcement

1215
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 3: is absolutely obligated to identify and if they can and

1216
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 3: build a case to charge with this crime. And it

1217
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 3: doesn't sound like that happened.

1218
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have Herbert Thompson who died not long

1219
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 2: after all of this happened, at age thirty one. We

1220
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 2: don't know why he was in debt. His brother James

1221
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,920
Speaker 2: was in debt. I mean, it was all a big mess.

1222
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 2: Pokey and her mother kind of disappeared after the trials,

1223
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 2: after they were released, but Mary Abernathy went on to

1224
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 2: live a long life. She died in the nineteen twenties. Edward,

1225
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 2: this is what's said. Edward Pollard died a year after

1226
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 2: his wife died of what sounds like colon cancer. So

1227
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 2: this is a really sad story. I'm sure that he

1228
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:20,680
Speaker 2: was incredibly frustrated. I mean this dragged on and on

1229
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 2: and on over an eleventh month period. So if you

1230
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 2: do the math, I think Edward died just a couple

1231
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 2: of months after Solomon was executed. So inconsistencies with witnesses,

1232
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 2: with offenders, with suspects, all of that is a challenge

1233
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 2: for our legal system and to find out what the

1234
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 2: truth is. I think you're right, it wasn't just Solomon.

1235
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 2: Somebody got away with murder, and I think the historian's

1236
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 2: probably right has to do with these two brothers. But

1237
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 2: we'll never know.

1238
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 3: But this is something that I you know, when I

1239
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 3: talk about cases, I always always, whether it be investigators,

1240
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 3: crime scene investigators, if there is an inconsistency, if there's

1241
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 3: something that doesn't seem to be adding up, that's when

1242
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 3: you have to step back and try to figure out why.

1243
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 3: You know, if I go into a crime scene and

1244
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:09,839
Speaker 3: I've been told this is what happened, you know, by patrol,

1245
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:13,720
Speaker 3: right because and oftentimes patrol doesn't have accurate information. They've

1246
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:16,200
Speaker 3: just got what they know at that moment in time,

1247
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:18,720
Speaker 3: and I'm evaluating the crime scene, I'm going, oh, no,

1248
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:19,759
Speaker 3: this is very different.

1249
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 1: Yep.

1250
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 3: That's hugely important. That's where you know, I'm communicating with

1251
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 3: the investigators saying no, no, no, this is not what

1252
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 3: the crime scene is saying happened. There's a different version

1253
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 3: of the story and a more correct version of the

1254
01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 3: story based on the physical evidence. And in this case,

1255
01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 3: we have inconsistencies all across the board, you know, up

1256
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 3: until the point that Solomon is fingering.

1257
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:49,600
Speaker 1: The white man, who Now I need a break.

1258
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 3: And I will say, and there's plenty of examples that

1259
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,800
Speaker 3: women are very very capable of killing other people with

1260
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:00,360
Speaker 3: an axe. Yep, it's happened.

1261
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 1: With everything possible.

1262
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 2: Yep. Yes, Well we'll talk about another case. Thanks for

1263
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 2: joining me on this one.

1264
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,240
Speaker 3: Paul, Now, this was fascinating. Thanks a ton Kate.

1265
01:10:14,439 --> 01:10:16,479
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production.

1266
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:20,120
Speaker 3: For sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot

1267
01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones Sources.

1268
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1269
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,040
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kaveleen Clardawsa.

1270
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:30,920
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Leona Scuilacci.

1271
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:33,560
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1272
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:35,839
Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1273
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1274
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1275
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 2: Buried Bones Pod.

1276
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1277
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1278
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

1279
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:56,560
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1280
01:10:56,560 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now for kol