1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that it was eight years ago 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: this week when I did perhaps one of the most 3 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: important interviews of my career. That was when I sat 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: down with Governor Sarah Palin, who was here in New 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: York City for the UN General Assembly because she was 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: running for Vice President of the United States. As we remember, 7 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: she was John McCain's running mate, and she had done 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: a few sit down interviews actually too, but had really 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: limited them to major network interviews. So this was a 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: very big deal for me because it was a big 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: opportunity to sort of peel the layers of the onion 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: and discover what made Sarah Palin tick. And I couldn't 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: have done it without the help of my trustee colleague, 14 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: Brian Goldsmith. Brian is one of the martest guys I know. 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: He's sort of my consigulary. Did I say that right, Brian? 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: Sigiliary See, I have to ask Brian everything. What where 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: would I be without him? I've just seen The Godfather 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: too many times. He's more You're more of a godson 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: than a godfather because you're only thirty four years old. 20 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: Let's be honest, Brian, did you realize that it was 21 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: eight years ago this week when we actually well I 22 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: actually you were in the room where it happened, as 23 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 1: they said in Hamilton's, and sat down and interviewed Governor 24 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: Sarah Palin. I didn't realize it was eight years ago 25 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: this week until you mentioned it a few minutes ago. 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: Of course, that interview gets mentioned all the time. I 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: think it's probably one of the two most significant political 28 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: interviews ever done on television, the other being wait, what's 29 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: the other Brian Roger MUD's infamous interview of Ted Kennedy 30 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 1: in which he couldn't answer the question very complicated question 31 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: why are you running for president? The question something wasn't it? 32 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: It was. The questions were a little more nuanced and 33 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: complicated for Governor Palin. But what struck me in the 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: aftermath of that interview, considering all the criticism that she got, 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: is that not a single big name Republican, not a 36 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: single McCain aid or advisor, said to you any of 37 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: these questions were unfair or unwarranted. It was really all 38 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: about her answers. She kind of buried herself as a 39 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 1: national political candidate in a single interview, which was a 40 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: pretty remarkable thing to watch. Let's take our listeners behind 41 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: the scenes a little bit, because we spent many days 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: in what we call in my apartment, my daughters and 43 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: I our red room. Now listeners don't think it's like 44 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: the red room of pain in fifty Shades of Gray. 45 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: It's anything, but it happens to be a dense slash 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: library ray that I painted this kind of not very 47 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: nice shade of kind of rose. When I bought this 48 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: apartment after my husband passed away in nine I wanted 49 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: this to be a happy place to raise my girls, 50 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: who were only six and two at the time, and 51 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: so Brian, we spent a lot of time in that room, 52 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: really going through the kinds of questions we thought would 53 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: be important to ask Governor Palent And I think you 54 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,119 Speaker 1: and I, what do you remember from those days other 55 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: than you couldn't wait to get out of my apartment 56 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: wanting to open the window to that library fresh It 57 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: was only it's only on the second floor, so good 58 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: luck with that. I remember the two of us thinking, uh, 59 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: this is somebody who only had been a governor for 60 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: about eighteen months at the time. Before that was a 61 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: small town mayor, and here she was in a position 62 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: to be one heart beat away from the most powerful 63 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: office on Earth, and so we didn't want to hold 64 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: her to an artificially high standard or to a different standard, 65 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: but we did want to hold her to the same 66 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: standard as other people who had sought that office before. 67 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: We wanted to give our viewers who didn't know much 68 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: about Sarah Palin, a sense of of who she was, 69 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: what she believed, and how she would approach this extraordinarily 70 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: important job. And we we divvied up the interview between 71 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:36,799 Speaker 1: foreign policy questions, economic policy questions, and questions about social issues. 72 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: So the first one was really focused on foreign policy 73 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: and economic issues. And then later I did a second 74 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: interview in Ohio when she was there for a campaign appearance, 75 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: and that's when I asked that question that seems to 76 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: be so remembered in this interview. Despite the fact that 77 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: we talked about Iran and nuclear weapons, we talked about taxes, 78 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: we talked about all kinds of issues. We were walking 79 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: and getting what's called b roll to cover the interview, 80 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 1: and that's when I asked her, when it came to 81 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: her world views, what newspapers and magazines had she read 82 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: on a regular basis that helped sort of shape her perspective, 83 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: and that's when she said, I were all most of them, 84 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: again with a great appreciation for the press, for the media, 85 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 1: like we I mean specifically, I'm curious that you know 86 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: all of them, any of them that have been in 87 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: front of me over all these years. Um, I have them. 88 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: I have a vast variety of sources where we get 89 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: to our news to Alaska isn't a foreign country where 90 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: it's kind of suggested, it seems like, wow, how could 91 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: you keep in touch with with the rest of Washington. 92 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: Do you see maybe thinking and doing when you live 93 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: up there Alaska? Believe me, Alaska is like a Mike 94 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: And it's funny, Katie. I remember exactly how you thought 95 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: of that question. We were on her campaign plane, UM, 96 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: flying with her to that event in Ohio, and we 97 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: could see into the first class cabin where Palin and 98 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: her aids were sitting, and we could see her reading 99 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: the New York Times. And I remember you're saying, Oh, 100 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: that's interesting. You sort of wouldn't expect her to read 101 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: the New York Times necessarily because she was and is 102 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: a very conservative politician. I wonder what else she reads? 103 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: Would that be an interesting question? And I don't remember that. 104 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: I don't even remember that that conversation, Brian, I remember that, 105 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: and I remember we didn't even write it down as 106 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: part of the written questions because we just thought it 107 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't yield a particularly interesting answer. Um, And so you 108 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: just threw it in as part of what we call 109 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: the walk and talk, not thinking that we would. I mean, 110 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 1: I imagine you didn't think we would even use the 111 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: audio of it. Yeah, I I wasn't sure. And it 112 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: was interesting because I think her her aids realized that 113 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: it was not going well. And you actually saw someone 114 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: emailing something on their BlackBerry what was that? And I 115 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: did during the very first interview you conducted with her 116 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: in New York during u N Week, we were in 117 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: a hotel room and it was very kind of close 118 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: quarters along the side of that room while you were 119 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: conducting the interview, and I peered over in a nosy way, 120 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: and I saw what a very senior McCain aid was 121 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: typing on his BlackBerry. I think to Steve Schmidt, if 122 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, who was running the campaign, and he 123 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: said disaster, disaster expletive, So they knew, they knew that 124 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: it was bad. I think we knew that it was bad. 125 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: I don't think any of us knew how iconic and 126 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: damaging the interview would be and how it would resonate 127 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: even all these years later. I think people stop you 128 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: to mention that interview more than any other, uh, any 129 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: other work you've done if if well, that that and 130 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: my that and my colonoscopy. This was just a different 131 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 1: kind of colonoscopy. Bryan. By the way, By the way, 132 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't sure how this interview would be 133 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: interpreted or received by the general public. I thought those 134 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: who liked Governor Palin would like her more because her authentic, 135 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: kind of homespun style, and I thought those who disliked 136 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: her would dislike her even more. What I didn't realize 137 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: was this wide swath of undecided voters, what kind of 138 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: impact it would have on them in terms of their 139 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: comfort level supporting someone who seemed to be out of 140 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: her depth when it came to major policy issues. Well, 141 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: one thing that interview showed loud and clear, Brian, is 142 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: that vice presidential candidates can make or break a campaign. Usually, 143 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 1: usually the rule is nobody votes for president, but sometimes 144 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: they do, or sometimes they vote against somebody's choice. For 145 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: vice president. And there is evidence that Palin hurt McCain, 146 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: but I think you were just about to do a 147 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: wonderful transition to art. That's okay. Bill Weld is running 148 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 1: for vice president. He is an old political hand, or 149 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: a political hand of long standing UM Governor Weld was 150 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: a two time governor of the state of Massachusetts, and 151 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: in nineties he lost a Senate race to John Kerry. 152 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: Then he was nominated by Bill Clinton to be ambassador 153 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: to Mexico. In late May. Our guests in mid May 154 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: May seventeen, to be exact, Gary Johnson named Bill Weld 155 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: as his running mate for the Libertarian ticket for president 156 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: of the United States. And Bill Weld is here to 157 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: talk about that. Hi, Governor, how are you, Katie. It's 158 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: a great pleasure. Thanks for having me. Well, this is 159 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: a very exciting time for you. But the clock is 160 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: tick game. What the hell are you doing this for? 161 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: Governor Weld. You know I have a bad character, I 162 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: guess because I really enjoy this stuff, and this year, 163 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: of all years, to have a chance to participate in 164 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: that with a guy I've known for a long time, 165 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: Governor Gary Johnson. He and I overlapped as governors and 166 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: think the world of and we have very similar backgrounds, 167 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, fiscally conservative, socially inclusive and uh, you know, 168 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: the two establishment party candidates are leaving a little bit 169 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: of room in the middle for an alternative. A matter 170 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: of fact, that's an understatement, kind of a six lane highway. Well, 171 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: we're going to get into sort of a lot of 172 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: the issues and your perspective on this campaign in a moment, 173 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: but I want listeners to have a better idea of 174 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: who you are and why you're here. As Admiral Stockdale 175 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: famously cent during one of those debates. Um, you may 176 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: not be originally from Boston, but I think you're kind 177 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: of the ultimate Boston Brahmin, wouldn't you say so? I 178 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: don't know about that. I was raised in Long Island, 179 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: New arc and uh went to school in Massachusetts, never 180 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: really left, but my family was from Massachusetts on on 181 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: both sides up until the nineteenth century. Yeah, I think 182 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: that's kind of an understatement. Your ancestor, I've read Edmund 183 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: Weld was among the earliest students ever at Harvard College 184 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:24,599 Speaker 1: class of sixteen fifty, where two buildings and two professorships 185 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: are named for your family. Wasn't Edman Weld the one 186 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: who was expelled for stealing horses. There was there was 187 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: a sheep in there. I I read something about that. 188 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: I didn't know what farm animals he got into trouble for, though. Well, 189 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: I was attacked by the local uh Irish Senate president 190 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: who gave St. Patrick's Day breakfast for my ancestors having 191 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: come over on the Mayflower. And I said, no, that's 192 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: not true at all. Uh They sent the servants over 193 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: to get the cottage ready for them, and after that, 194 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: After that, I didn't hear anything more much about that issue. 195 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: They just thought that was so funny. Well, and most 196 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: politicians tried to claim to have been born in a 197 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: in a log cabin they built themselves. So I think 198 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: your your honesty was pretty refreshing there. It wasn't even honest, 199 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: but I got away with it. Were you? Kennedy? Ask 200 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: in terms of politics being ingrained in you from a 201 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: very early age, how did you get into this old 202 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: crazy business? Well, you know, I didn't think I was 203 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: gonna be uh in politics growing up. I thought I 204 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: was gonna be a Latin teacher. But it is true 205 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: that my father was active in Republican politics in eastern 206 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: Long Island, and uh, you know he took me to 207 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: meet people and go to Rally's age, you know, fourteen fifteen. 208 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: So to that extent, uh, I knew that politics was 209 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: considered to be a noble calling in our family put 210 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: it that way from both my parents. And you got 211 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: your start in politics as a lawyer, not as an 212 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: elected official. You were appointed, as I recalled by President 213 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: Reagan to be U S Attorney for Massachusetts. What was 214 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: that experience like, Well, that was, to effect, possibly the 215 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: best job I ever had. That's the federal prosecutor from Massachusetts. 216 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: And I went on from there to be head of 217 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: the Criminal Division of the Justice Department in Washington. So 218 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: I had a lot of law enforcement experience under Reagan. 219 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: My first job in quote politics close quote was actually 220 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: working as a staffer for a center Javits of New York, 221 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: writing foreign policy speeches. That's before I even went to 222 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: law school. And my second job was sharing in office 223 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: with a young Yale law grad named Hillary Rodham on 224 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: the Nixon impeachment, the House Judiciary Judiciary staff, and we 225 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: literally wrote the book or the pamphlet on what constitutes 226 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: grounds for impeachment of a president, and whatever happened to her, 227 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 1: she's gone on to great things. But I'll tell you 228 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: a funny story. So twenty five years after that, we 229 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: did that in seventy three, seventy four. So I think January, 230 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: I get a call from John Podesta, who's in the 231 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: White House as chief of staff at that and he says, 232 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: looks like they're going to proceed against my guy. And 233 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: we've looked around, uh, and it seems that there are 234 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 1: only two people in the country who really know a 235 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: lot a lot about what the law of impeachment is, 236 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: and the other one is very much disqualified by interest. 237 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: So you're going to have to testify as an expert 238 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: witness on the law, which I did. And what did 239 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: you think of Hillary Rodham back in the day? What 240 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: were your impressions of her as a young lawyer. Well, 241 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: she's obviously smart and disciplined, and I've over the years 242 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: always described her as a great kid. And the truth 243 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 1: is we were both kids then, we were both in 244 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: our twenties. What what sort of stood out to you, 245 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: I mean, other than the fact that she was smart, 246 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: Can you give us more insights into sort of how 247 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: she operated, her character, her sense of humor her whatever. 248 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: I would say both good. Both character and sense of 249 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: humor good. And Uh, she presented as a straight not 250 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: as a Nixon hater. There were some people on that 251 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: staff who just couldn't wait to bring down Dick Nixon 252 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: and perhaps shouldn't have been on that staff. But no, 253 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: I would say she was pretty straightforward. You then moved 254 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: home to Boston, following your stint in the Reagan Justice Department, 255 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: and ran for governor as a Republican in a state 256 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: where I think fewer than of the registered voters at 257 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: the time were Republicans. What was that like? Well, I 258 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: was I was beaten very badly at the state Republican 259 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: convention uh in the spring of nineteen ninety and just 260 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: got lucky. Uh. In September, the race kind of broke 261 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: my way, so I won the primary by a little bit. Uh. 262 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: And then the Democratic Party split right down the middle, 263 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: and Uh, the fellow who had beaten me for attorney 264 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: general twelve years earlier, very badly beaten me, uh did 265 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: not get the nomination, and John Silver, who was the 266 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: president of Boston University did. He was ahead of me 267 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: most most of the way, but then he had a 268 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: couple of blow ups on TV with Natalie Jacobson and 269 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: then Leslie Stall in the closing ten days of the campaign. 270 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: And I think we won by one point something like that. 271 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: But it was class. I remember interviewing him when I 272 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: was at NBC and he was running, uh, and and 273 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: I remember how ornery he was and how what a 274 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: short fuse he had, and it didn't really work well 275 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: for him when it came to talking to reporters or 276 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: doing interviews. You know, in a way he was very good, uh, 277 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: very good copy was h uh. And we you know, 278 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: we we were too people who were not afraid of 279 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: the microphone. Can you describe a little bit the experience 280 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: of being governor of Massachusetts, being a Republican who was 281 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: successful in an overwhelmingly democratic place. Well, I mean it 282 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: was a tremendously enjoyable experience. I had very good staff, 283 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: led by Charlie Baker, who is now the governor of Massachusetts. 284 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: He was my secretary in both health and then later finance. Uh. 285 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: And I brought a bunch of people over from the U. S. 286 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: Attorney's Office who were very experienced investigators, prosecutors. Uh. Nobody 287 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: came near us with any improper suggestions because they knew 288 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: we were all federal prosecutors, so that was a plus. 289 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: We were able to cut taxes twenty one times and 290 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: never have a tax increase. And that you asked about 291 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: the first term and the experience, that's that's the dominant 292 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: feature of the first term is taxes went down, spending 293 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: went down. We actually cut spending in real dollars. And 294 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: when the small and medium business community saw that they 295 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: had the confidence to add jobs. So we went from 296 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: being the state with the highest unemployment rate among the 297 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: then eleven industrial states in the country at the beginning 298 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: of my first term to having the lowest unemployment rate 299 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: among those eleven states at the end of my first term. 300 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: That's where the big reelect came from. It was the economy. 301 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: It wasn't because we were such great guys. Let's talk 302 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: about you say that you agree with the Governor Johnson 303 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: in terms of you'd like to limit foreign intervention for 304 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: regime change, But are you really comfortable as a libertarian 305 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: or you are more libertarian ish? No, I'm I'm running 306 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: as myself. I'm not running with a copy of the 307 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: Libertarian platform in my pocket anymore than I ran with 308 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: a copy of the Republican Platform in my pocket when 309 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: I was running as a Republican. I mean I never 310 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: bought into the Republican social policies. They were you know, 311 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: they were anti abortion. I was pro choice. They were 312 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: so so at best about gays and lesbians. I was 313 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: out there for the entire decade of the nineties on 314 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: gay and lesbian issues, promoting civil rights, promoting marriage equality. 315 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: Um you know I I I also think that we 316 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: have to be darn sure that we maintain and demonstrate 317 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 1: military supremacy for the United States and both naval and 318 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: air power, because I know that people all over the 319 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: world look at that like hawks. I know you said 320 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: that you don't follow the Libertarian platform to the letter. 321 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: On the other hand, you're running mate. Gary Johnson has 322 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: taken a number of positions personally where there seems to 323 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: be some difference between the two of you. Can I 324 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 1: kind of go through Can we go through a few 325 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: Johnson's positions and get your views? Um in he advocated 326 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: cutting the federal government nearly in half at cut Do 327 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: you think that that's realistic? I think we're aiming at 328 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 1: now and I often have said before I teamed up 329 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: with Gary Johnson. I've never seen a layer of government 330 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: that didn't have ten or excess spending in it. And 331 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the words people always use waste, fraud, 332 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: and abuse. I'm talking about programs that shouldn't be there 333 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: in the first place, and ill conceived programs like what 334 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: bureaucracy that nobody can tell you quite what they do. 335 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's probably even more of that 336 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: at the federal level than there is at the state level. 337 00:19:53,600 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: But what who's head? Uh? No, my my, uh. The 338 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: guy I follow here is actually a Democrat named David 339 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: Osborne who wrote a book called Laboratories of Democracy about 340 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: how the states can experiment with things. And his recommendation, 341 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: which I've always followed, and I think probably Charlie Baker 342 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: after me has followed, is to zero base the budget. 343 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: You you don't assume that you have last year's appropriation 344 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: plus five percent, which is what they assume in Washington. 345 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: You assume every account is zero starting off, and then 346 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: you look at the results of last year, and if 347 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: the result of this preventive health program was marvelous outcomes 348 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: and saved lots of money and improve people's lives, you 349 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: might multiply that appropriation by twelve. You know, none of 350 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: this tem percent across the board stuff. Then you get 351 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: to bureaucracy, and it could be the Department of Education, 352 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: it could be the Department of Commerce, it could be 353 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: Homeland Security. Uh, you know, uh, we we have our thoughts, 354 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: but you want to examine them and that that might 355 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: be a zero. So that's that's how you really get 356 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: budget savings. And I did as governor in Massachusetts cut 357 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: spending in real dollars from year to year at at 358 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 1: the beginning when I took office, and each of Gary 359 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: Johnson and Bill wild were rated the most fiscally conservative 360 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: governor in the United States back in the nineties. And 361 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: that's something that's got to be done now in Washington. 362 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: And both the establishment party candidates have said, oh no, 363 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: we're gonna not gonna touch entitlements. We're gonna bigger this, 364 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: bigger that. Um, we're not so sure about that. Let 365 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: me go down this laundry list. If I could governor 366 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: maybe you can just give me a year or nay 367 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: a thumbs upper thumbs down on some of Gary Johnson's 368 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: positions marijuana legalization, yea or nay. Yeah, I'm okay, with 369 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: that treated like alcohol, I think alcohol is probably more 370 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: more harmful than marijuana. Deep six common Core, Oh very 371 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: much so. And the reason I say that is, Uh, 372 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: we put in high stakes tests in fourth, eighth, and 373 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: tenth grade in Massachuset assets and after they kicked in, 374 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: Massachusetts was number one in the country and reading in 375 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: math every single year. And if we went to common 376 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: Core and mass it would be a real downturn. You know, 377 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: if I had been the governor of Mississippi or Louisiana, 378 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: I might I might feel differently, but I don't want 379 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: to be part of a race to the bottom when 380 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: I'm on top. No government involvement in fighting climate change. 381 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: Something tells me, Governor, you're not that jiggy with that. Yeah, right, 382 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 1: that would be That would be correct. Now. I've been 383 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: quite active in the environmental area, and I would say 384 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: to Ed Crane, who is the head of the Cato Institute, 385 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: even in the old days when I went out to 386 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: his annual meetings, the one part where I, you know, 387 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: get off the bus, uh, is environmental enforcement. Just because 388 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 1: the the economies of scale are so great, you cannot 389 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: rely on the market of individuals and businesses to protect 390 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: us all from environmental degradation, and Gary agrees with that. 391 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: He says, look, the purpose of government, A major purpose 392 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: of government is to restrain people from injuring each other. 393 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: And if if it's you know, one polluter polluting a river, okay, 394 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 1: that's very obvious. But if it's millions of polluters polluting 395 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: the atmosphere, it's the same principle. No demandatory vaccines. Well, um, 396 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: you know I don't have flu shots myself. I represented 397 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: the talking about vaccines for children. Governor, Oh, you mean 398 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: like polio, and that sure, absolutely, that's that's that's fine, discretionary. 399 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: There shouldn't be mandatory vaccines for children, for babies, for infants. No, 400 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: if you mean polio tetan is that sort of thing though, 401 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: that's perfectly fine. Mmr. You know, all sorts of vaccines. 402 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: That's very controversial. You know, I would not agree there 403 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: should be no mandatory vaccines for children. I don't agree 404 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: with that. So you believe there should be mandatory vaccines, 405 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: And I just want to make sure I'm getting this straight. 406 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: He claims the no fly list is error prone and 407 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be used to deny gun purchases. Are you cool? 408 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: With that. You know, I think Gary and I have 409 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: had some influence on each other over the course of 410 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: this year, and uh, I think that I've had some 411 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: influence on his thinking in the foreign policy area. He's 412 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: had some influence on my thinking in UH criminal justice reform, 413 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, treating possessory narcotics offenses, for example, as a 414 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: public health emergency as opposed to UH a fit candidate 415 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: for criminal treatment and lengthy sentences. So if you're on 416 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: the no fly list, do you think you should be 417 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: able to purchase a gun? Well, I think before you 418 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: can purchase a gun, there have to be some further questions, 419 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: like why are you on the no fly list? And 420 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: I think Senator Collins of Maine has proposed to kind 421 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: of compromise legislation that seemed to me when I read 422 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: it to address the situation. Preserve people's rights, but have 423 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: short waiting periods when they get to clear their name 424 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: and say I shouldn't be on this list. All right, 425 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: We're going to go to a break in a moment. 426 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: But the final thing on my little laundry list, raise 427 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: social security retirement to seventy two is what I have 428 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: heard from Gary, and I agree with that, and I 429 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: agree with him very much that if we do nothing 430 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: about Social Security, and I do favor raising the retirement age, 431 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: I do favor imposing a means test. If we do nothing, 432 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: it's not going to be there for the next generation. 433 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: And that's what a lot of all is brew haha 434 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: about the millennials is about. I think they understand that 435 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,199 Speaker 1: if we put our heads in the sand and do 436 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: nothing about the entitlement programs, they won't be there for 437 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: the generation it's now eighteen to thirty four years old. 438 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 1: But do you think it's acceptable for somebody who works 439 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: with his hands or as a laborer, a coal miner, 440 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: if somebody works in a factory for that person to 441 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: have to work to age seventy two before collecting any benefits. Well, 442 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: maybe conjigger with the program to have exceptions, but generally 443 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: people haven't wanted exceptions with Social Security. That's why people 444 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: have opposed the means test. I think that's insane. Why 445 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: shouldn't there be a means test? I mean, let's be honest, 446 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: you don't need social Security, Governor, right, I don't need 447 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: social Security. I'd be happy to say no. It was interesting. 448 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: I used to talk to my mom and dad about it, 449 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: you know, and they were savers and we're very frugal. 450 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: And I'd say, mom and dad, do you really need 451 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: social Security? They're like, yes, we do, but don't. I mean, 452 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: it's just to me, it just seems ridiculous. Yeah. No, 453 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: I mean to say there should be no means test 454 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 1: as a non starter in my book. And yet you know, 455 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: people say, no, we're not going to touch social Security 456 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: in any respect because they think it's a third rail, 457 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: because they don't want to actually talk through the issues. 458 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: And I think Gary and I are not afraid to 459 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: talk through these issues. Well, there's another there's another argument 460 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: about not imposing a means test on Social Security, which 461 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: a lot of Democrats make. You don't want it to 462 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: become a welfare pro Graham that only benefits people who 463 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: are less well off, because then the political constituency for 464 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: social Security declines. To understand, I understand, and people on 465 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: the you know, left left side of things fiscally want 466 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: everything to be an entitlement. And the extreme example of 467 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: Senator Sanders, and I think Senator Clinton has picked up 468 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: a lot of the Sanders program, uh in her primary 469 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 1: tussle with him. Well, speaking of Hillary Clinton. When we 470 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about who your siphony 471 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: votes from, Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump and what you 472 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: think about that. Will be back with more from Bill Well. 473 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: Right after this, we're back with Massachusetts Governor Bill Weld, 474 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: who is currently running for Vice President of the United 475 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: States part of the Libertarian ticket with Gary Johnson. You know, 476 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: I asked for questions Governor Weld from people who follow 477 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: me on Twitter, and many asked, h if you were 478 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: hurting Hillary Clinton and we're actually um enabling a Trump presidency, 479 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: how you would feel about that. First of all, we're 480 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: not out to hurt anybody, unlike the two establishment party candidates, 481 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: who seemingly like the two parties they represent, want to 482 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: kill each other. As near and I can tell, as 483 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 1: I can tell to this point, we draw votes pretty 484 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: equally from the two establishment parties, something of a surprise 485 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: to me. I would have thought they would almost all 486 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: come from Mr Trump, because my appeal would be to 487 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: moderate Republicans, and there's a bunch of moderate Republicans who 488 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: are not too comfortable with Mr Trump and might even 489 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: stay home. Uh. And given you know, our ticket to 490 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: successful but genial Republican governors two terms each, they might 491 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: very well come our way. And I think we're getting 492 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: our share of that. And I think as the weeks 493 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: were on and people focus more intently on the on 494 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: the race and the issues, it will be easier for 495 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: me to make the case that, you know, what Mr 496 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: Trump says about having a closed economy, no foreign trade, uh, 497 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, it just is incoherent. So I 498 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: think as we go on, more votes are going to 499 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: come from Trump. And there seemed to be a little 500 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: bit of a divide on sixty Minutes between you and 501 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: your running mate on this particular issue Trump and and Clinton. 502 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: That is, Steve Croft said you seem less comfortable with 503 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: the idea of Donald Trump as president than Hillary Clinton, 504 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: and you said something like, well, I think you're a 505 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: pretty astute observer, did well in school. You did well 506 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: in school, and and I think Gary Johnson basically said, 507 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: you know, they're equally rotten. So if it if the 508 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: evidence mounts that your candidacy is enabling a Trump presidency, 509 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: would you consider, as Carl Bernstein speculated in the last 510 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: few days, dropping out, Well, you know, I can tell 511 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: there's some nervousness over at Clinton headquarters. Because I've received 512 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: several dozen emails unsolicited from people I don't know, in 513 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: the last two days saying you are a pariah, You're awful, 514 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: You're gonna go down in history, You're worse than Hitler. 515 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: You're going to enable a Trump presidency. Every vote you 516 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: take away millennial from Hillary Clinton is sustaining upon your 517 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: honor and that of your ancestors and your child. I mean, 518 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: very strong stuff, obviously orchestrated. They all came out of 519 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: a clear blue sky. So I know there's some nervousness 520 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: over there, but you know, I would say, go get 521 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: your votes, go hold on your votes. You know, Gary 522 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: and I did not get into this because we wanted 523 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: to please, uh anybody in particular. You know, we certainly 524 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: didn't get into it to please people in other countries. 525 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: By our support of free trade, we think free trade 526 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: benefits the US economy, and I'm pretty sure we're right 527 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,479 Speaker 1: about that. But people say, oh, you know, you're against 528 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: American workers because you're for free trade. I mean, that 529 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: is just totally incoherent. We no matter what your motivation, though, Governor, 530 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: I mean, are you prepared to be seen as a spoiler? 531 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: Sort of the Ralph Nader of this race, if in fact, 532 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: you do siphon votes from Hillary Clinton and help usherinna 533 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: Donald Trump presidency. Are you are you ready for that? 534 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: Because if we do a reality check, let's be honest, 535 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: you're probably not gonna win. Well, we're gonna try. We're 536 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: gonna make our case. And when you get done hearing 537 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: what I have to say about Mr Trump and rounding 538 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: up eleven million people and deporting them, and building a 539 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: wall with Mexico and having a closed, a closed economy 540 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: and no free trade whatsoever, and to bring back the 541 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: smooth Hauly tariffs that brought on the Great Depression, and 542 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: arm the Japanese and the South Koreans with nuclear weapons. 543 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: I mean, the list is almost inexhaustible. Yeah, but Governor, well, 544 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: that's that. That's well and good. But people have been 545 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: criticizing Donald Trump for those very issues four months now 546 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: and it doesn't seem to have a major effect on 547 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 1: his candidacy. So are you being naive by suggesting as 548 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: people become more aware of some of his positions that 549 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: his his support is going to wane because he seems 550 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: to be increasing his support, you know, and and it's 551 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: it's getting close to d Day. Well, I think it 552 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,240 Speaker 1: can only be good for the country, frankly, for people 553 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: to become aware of what alternatives there are in this 554 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: election year. And neither of the other parties represents the 555 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: combination of fiscal responsibility and social inclusiveness that we represent. 556 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 1: So that's really my answer to that whole line of attack. Well, 557 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: I'll give you a theory that was positive by somebody 558 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: who knows you, who said the following, and you can 559 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: tell me whether you think this is true or not. 560 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: This person said you were gonna be another Republican who 561 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: endorsed Hillary because you have a long and warm relationship 562 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: with her, and then Johnson called you out of the 563 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: clear blue sky, said you know you could be his 564 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: running mate. It gave you an opportunity to put yourself 565 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: and your issues kind of back on on center stage. 566 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: And you thought, as you said, that you would take 567 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: more votes from Trump than from Clinton, so kind of 568 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: a win win all around. Is any of that accurate. 569 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: I can't remember having a specific plan at any point 570 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: to endorse Mrs Clinton. The part about Trump is true, 571 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: but a specific plan. Did you have any intention of 572 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: endorsing Hillary Clinton? I don't recall that coming up before 573 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: Gary called me no. I mean, it's it's no secret 574 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: that I think she's qualified to be president. Now I 575 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: do not think Donald Trump is qualified to be president. 576 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: So if push comes to shove, will you drop out? 577 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: As if if in fact you that's absolutely not I've 578 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: never called on anybody else to drop out of a 579 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: political race or not run in the first place, and 580 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: equally not not persuaded to listen to that kind of counsel, 581 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: even from you know, well meaning folks. And in addition 582 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: to the orchestrated emails I've got, I've heard from some 583 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: New York friends of mine that they're worried about Mrs 584 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,399 Speaker 1: Clinton and that's that's a lot has been written about 585 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: that in recent days. It's called bed wedding. But you know, 586 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: is that it's yeah, nervousness about the Clinton prospects. Uh 587 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: and uh, I don't know. I guess I'm old school 588 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 1: of Massachusetts politics. Never never let him see you sweat 589 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,839 Speaker 1: or r r P. I guess Mitt Romney and other 590 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: leading anti Trump Republicans have said, Hey, if Bill Weld 591 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: were on the top of the ticket, we'd support them. 592 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: But Gary Johnson not so much. And I have to 593 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: ask you about some of his gaffs. He didn't know 594 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: what Aleppo was, as you saw, and you talked about 595 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: that on Sixty Minutes. He was asked by Mike Barnacle 596 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: on on Morning Joe, what would you do if you 597 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: were elected? About Aleppo? About Aleppo? And what is Aleppo? 598 00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: You're kidding? Aleppo is in Syria. It's the It's the 599 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: epicenter of the refugee crisis. Okay, got it? Got it? 600 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: And apparently, according to the New Yorker, he had never 601 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: heard of Harriet Tubman. Is that? Could that be? Maybe 602 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: she's better known in the East than the West. I 603 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 1: don't know. I will tell you I hear a lot 604 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: in Massachusetts, in New York from old friends of mine. 605 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: You should be on top of the ticket. And when 606 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 1: I get west of the Mississippi with Gary, guess who 607 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: gets mobbed at the airports. It's not me, And we 608 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: don't hear anything about flipping the ticket. But until January 609 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: you're running mate. Mr Johnson was CEO of a marijuana company. 610 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: You know, he hadn't heard of of Aleppo. As Katie mentioned, 611 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: Do you think he's ready and qualified on day one 612 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: to be president? Gary is? Gary is very sharp, and 613 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: he showed a lot of sand and grit in New 614 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: Mexico and kind of shocked the establishment there by winning. 615 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: He was at one percent when he started. He had 616 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: a big impact Fishly. He vetoed seven and fifties spending bills, 617 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: and he was overridden twice, and the legislature was pretty 618 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: close to two to one Democratic. So he knows how 619 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,479 Speaker 1: to talk to the people and make things stick. Uh, 620 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: he does not have uh, you know, an Oscar wild 621 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: facility with language. But you know, I thought I was 622 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: a pretty good chess player, and uh, Gary and I 623 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: have now played twice and he beat me both times, 624 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: and I had master points and he taught himself. So 625 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: and then you look at some of his other characteristics, 626 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: like driving himself as an athlete. He's a professional quality 627 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: ironman triathlete and has climbed the tallest mountain and all 628 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: seven continents. So he's a driven individual. And he's got 629 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: a backflip on sixty minutes that was quite a diving 630 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: board with no no spring in it. But he's a 631 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 1: driven person. And obviously he's run for president Nined States twice. Now. 632 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: He has plenty of ambition. He also has plenty of humility, 633 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: and and people sometimes mistake that for something else, goofiness 634 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: or something. They say, how come this guy isn't saying 635 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 1: I'm the greatest. You know, he's talking around the use. 636 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 1: Why does he just come out and say I'm the greatest. Well, 637 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 1: you'll never hear that from Gary Johnson. He's very I 638 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: would would you say that he's a bit quirky? Is 639 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,360 Speaker 1: that a fear? Think he's quirky? I think I'm a 640 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: bit quirky. They're they're different quirks. But I think the 641 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: overwhelming thing about Gary is his humility. He reminds me 642 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: in many ways of Abraham Lincoln, who Uh you know 643 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: what I asked Gary, how do you climb these mountains? 644 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: He said, I put one foot in front of the other. 645 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: That's how I do all my athletics stuff. And Lincoln, 646 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: you may remember, was asked how how long should a 647 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: man's legs be because Lincoln was very tall, and they 648 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: wanted him to say long like mine, and he said 649 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: long enough to reach the ground. So they both have 650 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: kind of homespun wisdom. And uh, I I refer to 651 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: Gary as honest Gary on the campaign trail. It's the 652 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: one undertaking we made to each other when Leslie and 653 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: I flew out and shook with him on the deal 654 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: after he and I talked on the telephone, is We're 655 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: gonna tell the truth to each other and and to 656 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: the public throughout this campaign. And Gary is obsessed with 657 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: telling the truth, which is why sometimes he seems painfully honest. 658 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: And yet when I mentioned Gary Johnson to people I 659 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 1: know who aren't following the day to day of politics, 660 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: the first word, inevitably that comes up is some variant 661 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: of pothead. How do you respond to that, is, do 662 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: you think that just sort of a bias we have 663 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 1: toward alcohol against marijuana, or do you think there's a 664 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: sense that you know, he's been on drugs for too long. No, 665 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: he's he's got a mind like a steel trap. Honestly, 666 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: I've been in a lot of plotting and scheming conversations 667 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: with him, and this guy has a rat trap mind. 668 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 1: It's just that, you know, I said I was out 669 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: there by myself for the decade of the nineties on 670 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: gay and lesbian issues. Gary was out there by himself 671 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: on legalizing marijuana for a decade as well. It was 672 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,759 Speaker 1: a decade after that. Uh, and so he came to 673 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: be identified with that. And while there are a hundred 674 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: million Americans who have smoked marijuana, there are a lot 675 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: who happen and to them it's just so alien, even 676 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 1: if they're knocking back a couple of stiff ones every evening. 677 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: So it's I think, fear of the unknown. But if 678 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: you look at and I say, Gary has influenced me 679 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: on some issues, this is one of them. If you 680 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: look at the statistics, uh, you know, you have a 681 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,839 Speaker 1: legal prescription uh pills killing thirty thousand people a year 682 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: and marijuana killing I don't know how many people zero 683 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: a year. That's a factor that's worth taking into account. 684 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: And can I ask you, Governor, why you think we're 685 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: in the state we're in when it comes to this campaign. 686 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: Why do you think Donald Trump has caught fire? And 687 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: why is he enjoying really such uh, you know, such 688 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: support across the country. And I suggest, by the way, 689 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: I would recommend you not use the phrase basket of deplorables. 690 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: Just why I don't. I don't know why he's gotten 691 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: as far as he has. I aim to find out 692 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 1: between now and November eight, because we're going to have 693 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,439 Speaker 1: even if not in the debates and we could still 694 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: get in the second third debates. We're going to have 695 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: a seat at the table and uh a platform to 696 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: voice analyzes and you know, but certainly you must have 697 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: some idea, Governor. I mean, you're you're an astute observer 698 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: of politics for many decades. Now, Well, what is he 699 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 1: what is he appealing to? You know? What he's doing 700 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: with almost every breath is to try to set group 701 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,919 Speaker 1: against group and set people's teeth on edge against each 702 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: other and stir up negative emotions, uh, beginning with envy, 703 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: than going on to resentment and ultimately hatred not too 704 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: not too strong a word with his treatment of Muslim 705 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: uh so, and he's had some success there by appealing 706 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 1: to the very worst angels of our nature. Uh. And 707 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 1: it's a sad thing. So I think the more sunlight 708 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: that can be shined on that the better. And I'm 709 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,280 Speaker 1: gonna be there trying to do that in the next 710 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: next seven weeks. But it's the most uh negative and 711 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: unappealing uh run of statements and initiatives and feints and 712 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: dodges and lies and prevarications, uh that I've seen in 713 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: my lifetime. And as you said, I've been around politics 714 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: for a while. It doesn't seem too it doesn't seem 715 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: to stick. I mean, the sort of the teflon candidate 716 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: is is such an overused phrase, but I mean he 717 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,399 Speaker 1: is beyond Teflon. It seems to me. Well, let's hope 718 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: that when people are windows shopping that they're willing to 719 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: put up with a lot for some entertainment value, but 720 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: then at the end of the day, when they have 721 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,280 Speaker 1: to actually walk in the booth and cast a vote, 722 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: that they'll be focused more on the merits. But it's iking. 723 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: You've described all the reasons that he's hateful and terrible 724 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: and his policies are gonna potentially start a new depression. 725 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: And you even compared his immigration planned to crystal knocked, 726 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: which for people who do worse or worse. And yet 727 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: he's tied with the Democratic nominee. So where is this 728 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,960 Speaker 1: coming from? I mean, go figure. He he retweeted pictures 729 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: of George Lincoln Rockwell, Uh, you're too young to remember 730 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,920 Speaker 1: he was the founder of the American Nazi Party. So 731 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: Mr Trump gets called on this, why are you retreating 732 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: retweeting George Lincoln Rockwell, Oh, it's nothing. Uh, it was 733 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: an accident and it was a joke. Don't worry about it, baloney, 734 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: it's a dog whistle. And uh, you know, the white 735 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: supremacists will say, yeah, we know Donald is with us, 736 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: and you know we don't care that he took it 737 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: back and said he wasn't serious about tweeting the picture 738 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: of the founder. So it's just, uh, it's a terrible 739 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: campaign on on so many levels that it sets new standards, 740 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 1: low standards for American politics. And speaking of low standards, 741 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: I think Trump's only response to you personally was when 742 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,399 Speaker 1: you made the crystal knocked comment. His campaign put out 743 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: a statement in which he said, and I'm quoting here, 744 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,359 Speaker 1: I don't talk about his alcoholism, so why would he 745 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 1: talk about my foolishly perceived fascism. Yeah, well, um, if 746 00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,879 Speaker 1: that if he wants to plead guilty to fascism, I'll 747 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: plead guilty to drinking wine. Conversely, Governor, why do you 748 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,759 Speaker 1: think Hillary Clinton is having so much trouble that that 749 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: young woman you met in your twenties and called a 750 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: really great kid. I don't understand it, and I say 751 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: so to everyone who will listen. I I don't get it, 752 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: but obviously it's there. At one point, Trump was at 753 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: sev unfavorable and she was at sixty eight or something 754 00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: like that. I don't understand it. Uh, And it may 755 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: be that, uh, you know, the negativity of the Republican 756 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 1: primary season has slopped over into the general election, and 757 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: everyone thinks they're supposed to be all upset about everything 758 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 1: all the time. But but you know, the negative tone 759 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 1: of the two establishment parties. I think we're we may 760 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,840 Speaker 1: make an issue out of that, saying, look, we're not 761 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: being negative. Here's what we think. We are an alternative, 762 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: and uh, we hope that that may have an effect. 763 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,960 Speaker 1: How much do you think the criticism of Hillary Clinton 764 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: is imbued by sexism? Oh, I'm I'm always prepared to 765 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: look for misogyny behind every tree. I think women have 766 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,960 Speaker 1: had a hard time getting fair treatment. Do you think 767 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 1: she has a problem with honesty and trustworthiness? Those have 768 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: become the kind of buzzwords for people who oppose Clinton. Yeah. 769 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: I may get cross wise with Gary here, but no, 770 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 1: I don't think that. I mean, I think it's not 771 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,680 Speaker 1: a stretch to say there's some pay to play aspects 772 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: to the relationship between the Foundations and the government. And uh, 773 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 1: I wish that the HUMA abbot and emails had come 774 00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: from her as well as from huma Um. But in 775 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,880 Speaker 1: the scheme of things that that doesn't match the level 776 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,359 Speaker 1: of shouting that's going on by everybody else. So what's 777 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,080 Speaker 1: the path to victory, Governor weld the past? To victory 778 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:32,320 Speaker 1: for me and Johnson is to solve our quantitative uh 779 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: problem or issue, and that's the only thirty five percent 780 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: of the people know who we are. I don't think 781 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: we have a qualitative problem because I think we've got 782 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,040 Speaker 1: the best, the best ticket, the most experience, and the 783 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: best platform, which is to do what's necessary on the 784 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: budget and also to be the opposite of what what 785 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 1: Mr Trump is on social issues. So if we put 786 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: our story in front of people, I don't have too 787 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: much doubt as to the outcome. You're right, Katie, time 788 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: is flying and we've got seven weeks to do that. 789 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: In what gives me some uh uh some ground for 790 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: optimism here is it's in the last four weeks of 791 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: the election that people really do focus with laser like 792 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,040 Speaker 1: intensity on the issues and on the options, and it's 793 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: gonna be hard for them to ignore us all together. 794 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: If we get even a modicum of earned media exposure 795 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,560 Speaker 1: in those seven weeks. But if you don't get into 796 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: any of the debates, do you think that there's any 797 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: chance that you could win? It's a very long put. 798 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,240 Speaker 1: But then I saw Justin Leonards fifty seven foot put 799 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: at the Brookline Country Club live to win the Davis 800 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,240 Speaker 1: puck Up gave us a cup for the United States. 801 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,920 Speaker 1: That's a long put that went in. Nice to have 802 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: the common touch at the Brookline Country Club, isn't a 803 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: governor's right? Before we go, I just have to ask 804 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: you what newspapers and magazines have you read that have 805 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:04,439 Speaker 1: helped establish your worldview? I read the News. I got 806 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 1: that joke, Governor, by the way, it seems to have 807 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: fallen flat. No, No, I got it. But I smiled 808 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: in the room with him. He smiled. My reading habits 809 00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: have maybe shifted to making sure that I absorbed the 810 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,279 Speaker 1: Times and the Journal. I read foreign affairs. I read 811 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: a lot in international affairs. And you're a writer I have. 812 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,320 Speaker 1: I can't let you go before mentioning that you've written 813 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,880 Speaker 1: three books. Yeah, and also, and you don't know this, Katie, 814 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 1: but I have a memoir in the can that's four 815 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,200 Speaker 1: seventy five pages long and that's without the fatal phone 816 00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: call from Gary Johnson in May of two thousand sixteen. 817 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: So it's going to have to elongate a little bit, 818 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: and then it will really be too long to read. 819 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Governor, how many pages four seventy five and counting? 820 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: Oh god? Well, well, yes, you're definitely going to have 821 00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: to uh do an epilogue for that. It should be 822 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: a fascinating month for you. I hope you drink coffee 823 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,720 Speaker 1: because you're gonna need plenty of it. That's entirely true. 824 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm a three and a half cup of day man already. 825 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 1: All right, Well up that to five, Governor Bill, Well, 826 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 1: thanks so much for spending some time with us talking 827 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:19,719 Speaker 1: about this Stranger Than Fiction campaign, and good luck on 828 00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,759 Speaker 1: the trail. Thanks so much, Katie Bryant, Thanks thanks. We 829 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,080 Speaker 1: want to thank Gianna Palmer, Gretta Cone, and the Reverend 830 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,800 Speaker 1: John de Lore for producing the show. Zack Dinerstein mixed 831 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: this episode special Thanks as always to Mark Phillips for 832 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,680 Speaker 1: our fantastic theme music, and most of all, thank you 833 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,280 Speaker 1: for listening. If you want to leave us a message, 834 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: please do so at nine to nine, two to four, four, six, 835 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: three seven, and please subscribe, rate and review the podcast. 836 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,680 Speaker 1: It really does help other listeners to find the show. 837 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,880 Speaker 1: It helps Apple with their search algorithm to list our 838 00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,760 Speaker 1: show more prominently for people to see. So please subscribe, 839 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 1: ran and review so we'll talk to you next time. 840 00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,400 Speaker 1: Hey folks, it's me Mark Marin and if you love podcasts, 841 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,879 Speaker 1: you don't want to miss now Here. This a really 842 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,320 Speaker 1: big podcasting festival coming in October to the Los Angeles area. 843 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: Come see me and lots of shows you love. More 844 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: than thirty great podcasts live on six stages. It'll be 845 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,040 Speaker 1: a weekend full of laughs, storytelling, and your favorite hosts 846 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,560 Speaker 1: up close. 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Okay, good, great,