Speaker 1: O Loo.
Speaker 2: Nice to meet you.
Speaker 1: It's so great to meet you. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for having me on.
Speaker 2: Of course, well thank you for being here. Have you
Speaker 2: been how long have you been in New York since
Speaker 2: you were first in New York? Because I know you
Speaker 2: grew up in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and Wilmington, Delaware, which was
Speaker 2: we'll get into, but have you been in New York
Speaker 2: since you first came to New York.
Speaker 1: I've been in New York since. I've been in New
Speaker 1: York since the nineties, since nineteen ninety eight, since college.
Speaker 1: So I grew up in those places and then came
Speaker 1: right after high school, which needed desperately to like find
Speaker 1: somewhere to go to be with the creatives, and New York.
Speaker 2: Was a place to go to feel accepted. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: feel like even do you feel like even places like
Speaker 2: La or Miami still aren't as accepting as a place
Speaker 2: like New York. Is it the most accepting place in
Speaker 2: the world? Have you traveled the world?
Speaker 1: You know, I have traveled a bunch, and I would
Speaker 1: say that New York is probably not the most accepting
Speaker 1: place in the world. For probably not. It's definitely extremely
Speaker 1: diverse and it's interesting even in places where there's diversity,
Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't have all the other things you need.
Speaker 1: A lot of places that I've been to in the
Speaker 1: South and in the Midwest seem to be really accepting.
Speaker 1: And the biggest I guess signal of acceptance for me,
Speaker 1: for the most part is as a trans person, because
Speaker 1: right now that's a hot topic. What are the types
Speaker 1: of experiences that people are having? Now? People are having
Speaker 1: some bad experiences. But when I was sort of a
Speaker 1: little younger but able to travel, I realized I was
Speaker 1: having some good experiences in these places, and I was
Speaker 1: really puzzled. But then I looked a little bit deeper.
Speaker 1: It's not just that those places are just accepting. It's
Speaker 1: that there's less visibility of queer people, people who are out,
Speaker 1: whereas people in New York. Not everyone, of course, there's
Speaker 1: all kinds of people in New York and la and
Speaker 1: all the other places, but a lot of people in
Speaker 1: New York are generally more, at least in like the
Speaker 1: mainstream areas, sometimes more educated. They may have more exposure
Speaker 1: to different groups and things like that. And so you know,
Speaker 1: I remember watching a really early episode of the Real
Speaker 1: World back in the day Miami can't remember his name,
Speaker 1: one of the guys on there, but he was from
Speaker 1: New York and this was in nineteen ninety three or four,
Speaker 1: rural World, Miami, and I remember just having learned about
Speaker 1: the rainbow flag. Now I know that is like everybody
Speaker 1: knows about that now, but there was a moment in
Speaker 1: time where people would use the rainbow flag as sort
Speaker 1: of code. They would have a little sticker or a
Speaker 1: little piece of jewelry, and to most people it was
Speaker 1: just a rainbow. It didn't mean it had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with the queer community. But to people in the community,
Speaker 1: it was the signal that this place is LGBTQ friendly.
Speaker 1: And I remember watching an episode and all the other
Speaker 1: housemates and cast members were like, what's this rainbow on
Speaker 1: the door of this place? And the guy from New
Speaker 1: York was like, Oh, that means that they're gay friendly
Speaker 1: or LGBT friendly. And he wasn't a part of the community,
Speaker 1: but he was a business owner and kind of and
Speaker 1: was a New Yorker and he just knew, so like,
Speaker 1: that's kind of what I mean.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, that's definitely interesting. And also New York is
Speaker 2: like a big cafeteria where like the Upper East Side
Speaker 2: is certainly not the same as going into the West Village,
Speaker 2: you know, Harlem or Chelsea or Five Eye, so you know,
Speaker 2: it could be a mean girl's cafeteria.
Speaker 1: Too, exactly. So you know it's it is so wild.
Speaker 1: You go into you go over a few streets, and
Speaker 1: you're in a completely different area, different vibe.
Speaker 2: You know, an acceptance level. If you're walking around westle Village,
Speaker 2: you're gonna have a different experience. And if you're walking
Speaker 2: on eighty, you know Carnegie, you know totally that's interesting.
Speaker 2: So what how big is your family?
Speaker 1: Uh, they're kind of small. You know. My mom has
Speaker 1: four had four siblings. A couple of people have passed,
Speaker 1: but my mom grew up with four siblings and they
Speaker 1: all had most of them had kids, a couple of
Speaker 1: them didn't, and but like one or two. So like,
Speaker 1: you know, each generation is like five people.
Speaker 2: And are you close with your are your parents alive?
Speaker 2: Are you close with them?
Speaker 1: I'm close with my mom. Yeah, both my parents are alive.
Speaker 1: But I am close with my mom. Yeah, she's we're
Speaker 1: kind of close in age. And so people you say,
Speaker 1: when I was younger, people would just assume that we
Speaker 1: were when we were both when we were both younger,
Speaker 1: people would assume that we were siblings and not, you know,
Speaker 1: she wasn't.
Speaker 2: My mother, And you talk about not you know, sort
Speaker 2: of stifling, not non conforming in high school. So how
Speaker 2: did that work? And when you know, what was your
Speaker 2: childhood like? Who somebody is is obviously their entire identity,
Speaker 2: but having to explain it and talk about it and
Speaker 2: also being an activist about it is not everybody. It's
Speaker 2: probably like a gift and a burden because you constantly
Speaker 2: have to explain yourself and explain your story it is.
Speaker 1: It's both. It's both a gift and a burden, and
Speaker 1: something I'm dedicated to because I think it's really important
Speaker 1: because I want people to learn. I want to be
Speaker 1: able to connect with people. I want my other you know,
Speaker 1: siblings in the queer community to have a good experience,
Speaker 1: especially people who are younger who may come after me.
Speaker 1: And it also does feel like a bit of a
Speaker 1: job sometimes, and so just.
Speaker 2: Being you is sometimes a job. Just being who you
Speaker 2: actually are like is just a job sometimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it can feel like that, especially if being me
Speaker 1: allows me to connect with the things that I'm the
Speaker 1: most passionate about. Of course, there It's not like someone's
Speaker 1: forcing me to talk about trans rights or go to
Speaker 1: march and a thing. But I think that those things
Speaker 1: are really important, and you know, you're right. It's it's
Speaker 1: really interesting. Like right now, in the current political climate,
Speaker 1: it's a shame. I think the queer community and definitely
Speaker 1: people in the trans community are getting a bit of
Speaker 1: a bad rap from some people, and that means that
Speaker 1: we have to go out and like do all this
Speaker 1: extra labor to clean up after this sort of reputation
Speaker 1: that people are that some people, especially some elected officials,
Speaker 1: trying to spread these some of these elected officials, some
Speaker 1: of these politicians, some of these like you two and
Speaker 1: talking heads that for whatever reason find it very advantageous
Speaker 1: or even lucrative.
Speaker 2: But your childhood, so what was that like as it
Speaker 2: pertains to who you are and not conforming?
Speaker 1: It was actually pretty good, I would say, like by
Speaker 1: today's standards, it was probably middle of the road. Of course,
Speaker 1: I had some really tough experiences. I had, you know,
Speaker 1: bullies in school. I've experienced discrimination and different things like that,
Speaker 1: and I learned from those things and I think that
Speaker 1: they were although they're not what I would wish for
Speaker 1: anybody to have to go through, and certainly not necessarily
Speaker 1: what I would want to go through or choose to
Speaker 1: go through. It sometimes comes with the territory. So I
Speaker 1: found the lesson in a lot of those things. But
Speaker 1: I think by today's standards, my experience in general's middle
Speaker 1: of the road. My family was you know, you know,
Speaker 1: growing up in a black family in the nineties, there
Speaker 1: was a good chance that, well, my family was all
Speaker 1: like democrat like in terms of their political you know, associations,
Speaker 1: and so they were very I guess the best word
Speaker 1: would be like tolerant of everything across the board. Now
Speaker 1: that's we learned that tolerant is not the ideal because
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily make room for like a lot of
Speaker 1: understanding or really like have you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: caring and understanding. But it means that they weren't like
Speaker 1: constantly demonizing me. I have other friends who grew up
Speaker 1: in a really you know, extremely religious household or an
Speaker 1: extremely conservative household, and some of the things that their
Speaker 1: parents would say, for instance, would be would not really
Speaker 1: set the stage or be encouraging for them to share
Speaker 1: with their parents who they really are or how they
Speaker 1: really feel. And so I didn't have that experience, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't extreme progressive. I mean, I also know friends
Speaker 1: who whose parents said to them at a very young age,
Speaker 1: you can be anyone you want, and no matter who
Speaker 1: you love, it's fine. That wasn't my experience either. But
Speaker 1: my family understood from a really young age that I
Speaker 1: was very eccentric and sort of swishy and very flamboyant
Speaker 1: and femme, and I was able to find refuge very
Speaker 1: early on in the arts, in singing and choir and
Speaker 1: drama and acting and dance, and so my family was
Speaker 1: super supportive of the arts. So as long as I
Speaker 1: was in the arts, then anything I did was fine,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And they'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're just creative. That was like their excuse for me.
Speaker 2: The arts like kind of saved you in a way.
Speaker 2: If you didn't have that that you probably would have
Speaker 2: felt like you were on an island girl.
Speaker 1: It's the truth. I mean, if there was if there
Speaker 1: was no if the arts wasn't present, which I mean,
Speaker 1: that would be a completely different world. But like the
Speaker 1: arts in schools specifically, because that's usually where I faced
Speaker 1: most of my social experiences as a kid, That's what
Speaker 1: you do, you socialize in school, So if you're going
Speaker 1: to meet a bully, it's either going to be in
Speaker 1: the neighborhood or another school or classmate or something. And
Speaker 1: so a lot of my experience is the negative experiences
Speaker 1: that I had around being teased for who I am
Speaker 1: and being queer were in school. And so in school,
Speaker 1: my refuge was definitely the arts art class, drama class,
Speaker 1: music class, where I was a I was in well,
Speaker 1: I was around other people who were also creative, uh
Speaker 1: and maybe also would eventually be queer or part of
Speaker 1: the trans community or whatever. But then also I was
Speaker 1: in a sort of safety and numbers space where sports
Speaker 1: wasn't the dominating activity where bullies would have felt out
Speaker 1: of place for the most part going into that sort
Speaker 1: of environment and.
Speaker 2: So good at something. So being good at something in
Speaker 2: that space means you're thriving.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And here's a shout out to anybody who has
Speaker 1: the power to vote for or support music education in schools.
Speaker 1: It's really important. I for until fifth grade, all from
Speaker 1: like all the way through my schooling until sixth grade,
Speaker 1: actually was able to enjoy playing the cello. And then
Speaker 1: suddenly I moved to a school where they didn't have
Speaker 1: music in school and that was gone forever, and so yeah,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm friends with Ryan Murphy, and I have
Speaker 2: to shout out that show Glee, because it really did
Speaker 2: address everything and normalize and promote and celebrate and I
Speaker 2: think that was an important show for you know. I
Speaker 2: watched it with my daughter, and I loved watching it later,
Speaker 2: like during the pandemic, not when I was first airing,
Speaker 2: seeing every week them address something different, alcoholism, pregnancy, gay
Speaker 2: a beauty. Yeah, Like it really addressed in music was
Speaker 2: being popular for being in the you know, in the chorus,
Speaker 2: which in my growing up course for me, I was
Speaker 2: always in the chorus and I was in the plays.
Speaker 2: But like it wasn't cool. It wasn't cool to be
Speaker 2: you know at all. But I loved it. I loved
Speaker 2: being in the chorus. Interesting, how old were you when
Speaker 2: you came out?
Speaker 1: I came out, like on a large scale, I came
Speaker 1: out twice, at least. First I came out as liking boys,
Speaker 1: and then I came out as trans and sort of
Speaker 1: that's just like the process that I, you know, followed.
Speaker 1: There are people who even don't and that's common for
Speaker 1: a lot of trans people. It's to like sort of
Speaker 1: step into your queerness first and then fine tune it,
Speaker 1: you know, because especially people my age or people who
Speaker 1: grew up in the nineties, there wasn't a lot of
Speaker 1: articulation about being by or pan sexual or trans or
Speaker 1: nuance nuance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, chocolate or vanilla. There's not like.
Speaker 1: Exactly it was like gay or straight? What are you?
Speaker 1: And so there was I'm not gay, I don't identify
Speaker 1: as gay, but that was like the closest thing I had,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Also like when I got
Speaker 1: check a box, Yeah, like by the same token. Like today,
Speaker 1: as a black trans woman, people that I idolize are
Speaker 1: you know a lot of people like Laverne Cox, who's
Speaker 1: very well known and she's obviously black and trans. So
Speaker 1: that's who I would point to today. But when I
Speaker 1: was growing up, there wasn't someone like Laverne Cox's visible
Speaker 1: in public on TV and in the public eye. So
Speaker 1: the closest thing I had at a certain at one
Speaker 1: moment in time was like Richard Simmons, who is not
Speaker 1: really you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: You can't pick you know, is he because he never
Speaker 2: discussed it, is he gay? Is he straight? He's out exactly.
Speaker 1: But he was obviously very flamboyant. He had all the
Speaker 1: characteristics that I would get teased for so and he
Speaker 1: was owning his power. He was he was definitely a
Speaker 1: person in control of his realm Ladies were like screaming
Speaker 1: and hollering like he was Michael Jackson, you know, like
Speaker 1: he had power, you know, And and I didn't.
Speaker 2: Really an identity or like honesty, but he probably was
Speaker 2: fighting a ton too, but he got to be expressed
Speaker 2: himself exactly.
Speaker 1: So that was the closest type of thing we had.
Speaker 1: So by that token, I couldn't really articulate I'm a
Speaker 1: trans woman back in the day interesting and so that
Speaker 1: So then later on when I learned more about it
Speaker 1: and realized and I found the art of drag, and
Speaker 1: I realized, oh there are there's more. This is more
Speaker 1: fine tune, and this feels more correct, and I was
Speaker 1: able to come out as trans. And then, but even
Speaker 1: for gay people, depending on the company you keep, sometimes
Speaker 1: you have to come out more than once to your
Speaker 1: friend group, to the people at work, to your family,
Speaker 1: and sometimes those are different phases in your life, you know,
Speaker 1: Like I realized, oh, you know that myself and another
Speaker 1: trans woman. Yes, we may face a lot of things.
Speaker 1: Or myself and another CIS woman like yourself. I'm we
Speaker 1: might face a lot of this, a lot of things
Speaker 1: that are similar in terms of discrimination, in terms of
Speaker 1: the barriers that we face, or different things.
Speaker 2: What's ais woman?
Speaker 1: Assist woman is a woman who's not trans, and you
Speaker 1: know that's that's it really is for the distinction.
Speaker 2: Of of you know, I'm a woman, but we're different women.
Speaker 1: We're different types of women. Yeah, I'm a trans woman
Speaker 1: and a woman who who I aligns with her gender
Speaker 1: at birth and never felt like anything was wrong or
Speaker 1: that she needed to change anything terms of her gender. Uh,
Speaker 1: would would be in the category of cist gender, and
Speaker 1: that is uh. There has been some controversy around that term.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people who either don't understand
Speaker 1: it or want to further marginalize the trans community, you know,
Speaker 1: find issue with that word. Uh. It's not a slur.
Speaker 1: It is a word that's meant to clarify because we
Speaker 1: both have the experience of womanhood and even even there's uh, well,
Speaker 1: I will say this, we both have the experience of
Speaker 1: what it's like to be to grow up in a
Speaker 1: in a world, in a country that is dominant, dominated
Speaker 1: by men and the patriarchy, and we have the experience
Speaker 1: of being treated a certain way because of our proximity
Speaker 1: to femininity. You know, for you, that is probably natural
Speaker 1: you are a cists woman. Obviously, for me, it is
Speaker 1: natural for me to be fem and flamboyant. That's how
Speaker 1: I've always been. But uh, to come into my womanhood,
Speaker 1: I had to sort of take certain steps, and so
Speaker 1: that's really that distinction. But here we are and we
Speaker 1: both face a lot of the same things. But of
Speaker 1: course my blackness other parts of my identity. Obviously, my
Speaker 1: transness means that my route to that meant I had
Speaker 1: to take a different intersection, and at that intersection, I
Speaker 1: experience different things. At certain intersections there's red lights, and
Speaker 1: certain intersections there's green lights, and sometimes there's no stoplight
Speaker 1: at all, or sometimes there's a stop sign and a
Speaker 1: stoplight and a crossing guard and a railroad train track
Speaker 1: and yellow light.
Speaker 2: You know, Well, I think words are really important, and
Speaker 2: I think and opposed me too, and black Lives Matter
Speaker 2: world and the pandemic gave people a lot of time
Speaker 2: to sit home and like think and discuss and there
Speaker 2: were a lot of there's a lot bubbling up. I
Speaker 2: think words you know, became a big thing because not
Speaker 2: everybody knew the right terms, and people are scared to speak.
Speaker 1: The way that they're used really to tates how they're perceived.
Speaker 1: And so there was a moment in time. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was a moment in time where the F word where
Speaker 1: honestly anything that became a mainstream word that everyone whether
Speaker 1: they were gay, straight, whoever they were, knew that word.
Speaker 1: At some point. However, the dominating part of society feels
Speaker 1: about that community, they're going to use that mainstream word
Speaker 1: as a weapon against that smaller group. So if you're
Speaker 1: a marginalized community and no one knows about you, then
Speaker 1: you can use different words. It's going to have less
Speaker 1: of an impact. But the minute people who like to
Speaker 1: discriminate understand how that word is used and how it
Speaker 1: associates you, they're going to use it to demonize you
Speaker 1: and say and so for a lot of people, you know,
Speaker 1: when there was a thing and there certainly still is
Speaker 1: a thing in terms of discrimination called gay bashing, where
Speaker 1: people who were queer we're getting beaten up, yes, being
Speaker 1: identified on the street, and a lot of times, the
Speaker 1: words that the maybe there were people who would just
Speaker 1: go up and beat somebody up and not say anything,
Speaker 1: but all so, those are the words that are associated
Speaker 1: with hate when they're getting beaten up, when they're getting
Speaker 1: discriminated against. And then the other part of it is
Speaker 1: there is a nuance with language. Like we said, back
Speaker 1: in the day, me and a bisexual woman and a
Speaker 1: gay man would have all been just called gay. Well,
Speaker 1: I think when we're when we're talking about visibility and
Speaker 1: acceptance and people who we didn't know so much about visibility,
Speaker 1: acceptance and education are things that are kind of constantly
Speaker 1: swirling around and with a certain group, a marginalized community,
Speaker 1: people who are discriminated against when we start to include
Speaker 1: them into you know, like, at one point in time,
Speaker 1: it was perfectly legal to fire someone if there if
Speaker 1: they were even suspected of being gay gay, right and
Speaker 1: so that was as recent as the nineties and so,
Speaker 1: and even in the two thousands, right and so. And
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there's that still could be happening to
Speaker 1: this day. Obviously, I think people think of that as
Speaker 1: illegal now, and we're trying to get those same protections
Speaker 1: for people in the trans community and But anyway, when
Speaker 1: this people in these in these groups who've been discriminated
Speaker 1: against in certain ways end up becoming more visible people
Speaker 1: who are friendly and accepting to those parts of the community.
Speaker 1: Oftentimes they adopt these words, but they have a little
Speaker 1: less information, but they're trying to be open minded. They're
Speaker 1: trying to make sure that they make everyone feel safe
Speaker 1: and included. But then, of course when the bigots come
Speaker 1: around and learn that word and.
Speaker 2: Use it to write and weaponize it, so we got
Speaker 2: to change the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: get it. I get I get it. Are you in
Speaker 2: a relationship?
Speaker 1: No, I love? Do you date?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: I'm not dating right now. Uh, there's someone who I'm
Speaker 1: in love with and we uh we're we're not together
Speaker 1: at the moment, but I hope we get back together again.
Speaker 2: And is this person in the entertainment industry or are
Speaker 2: they like a civilian, like a business? Like what type
Speaker 2: of I'm not outing this person or whoever you're dating,
Speaker 2: but I just meant, like, what's that, what's your type?
Speaker 1: He is not a he's a civilian, he's not in entertainment,
Speaker 1: And I don't I would be perfectly fine dating somebody
Speaker 1: in entertainment, but I do think that it's probably not
Speaker 1: what I want. He just came back into my life
Speaker 1: and expressed some stuff to me, and so there's the
Speaker 1: deeper conversation. We'll have to do a part too, because okay,
Speaker 1: I don't fully know, but he's he's a really accepting guy.
Speaker 1: He doesn't seem there are some men who deal with
Speaker 1: sort of a sense of shame because of not because
Speaker 1: they're it's just because they're inherently just ashamed of who
Speaker 1: they are, or that they're dating trans women, for instance.
Speaker 1: But it's I think it primarily has to do with
Speaker 1: what other people think about them when they find out.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, there's a whole layer. That's why I'm
Speaker 2: fascinated because I spoke to someone else about this, and
Speaker 2: it's interesting because this person was dating someone who had
Speaker 2: just was from New England and traditional, very traditional, very
Speaker 2: you know. It's it's people are attracted to the opposite
Speaker 2: a lot a lot of times, the opposite of like
Speaker 2: their constricting lives. So are you attracted to conservative men
Speaker 2: like you? Like?
Speaker 1: What? That's really interesting? I I certainly have dated this
Speaker 1: person is somewhat conservative, like socially liberal, but maybe politically
Speaker 1: and financially, you know, like fiscally, you know, the whole thing.
Speaker 1: I do think, and it is interesting there does seem
Speaker 1: to be a pattern, Like you said, we're sort of
Speaker 1: opposites attracting in terms of that or.
Speaker 2: There's what's the word, they're not repressed stifled like because.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, I think some people who are
Speaker 1: repressed are attracted to those who are who are more free. Perhaps,
Speaker 1: of course, I think that speaks to like what we
Speaker 1: really want is I think in the in the at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, a lot of people who
Speaker 1: are repressed or who've been sort of who need freedom,
Speaker 1: want freedom, So they're attracted to freedom and liberation.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: And for people like me who are maybe experiencing that
Speaker 1: right now, what I'm looking for is a sense of
Speaker 1: like sort of groundedness and not that you can't be
Speaker 1: grounded and liberated or free, but you know, people in
Speaker 1: terms of relationships, I think a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of times people who are more conservative and more sort
Speaker 1: of straight laced have a closer connection to this is
Speaker 1: going to be a hot take, a looser relationship with
Speaker 1: business and capitalism and sort of the status quo and
Speaker 1: a mainstream sort of persona and identity that's more accepted.
Speaker 1: And for some people who've already found personally their identity,
Speaker 1: their truth, they have what they need, you know, personally,
Speaker 1: then being connected to that sort of stability can be
Speaker 1: attractive as well.
Speaker 2: Well, right, you've dealt with a certain amount of turmoil,
Speaker 2: you may not be attracted to somebody who's dealing with
Speaker 2: a certain turmoil. Both houses can't be on fire at
Speaker 2: the same time. Like so nice to be, you know,
Speaker 2: like a rock to someone who's like grounded in their
Speaker 2: identity is attractive because sometimes you've had to battle with that,
Speaker 2: So that makes that makes sense, you know safe. So
Speaker 2: what do you think about how brands? Do you think
Speaker 2: brands have botched this up? Like bud Light and Target,
Speaker 2: and then it becomes this whole big thing, and then
Speaker 2: you have people saying negative things and was it were
Speaker 2: they was it the execution of these brands trying to
Speaker 2: do the right thing? And were they authentically doing the
Speaker 2: right thing or were they trying to check the box
Speaker 2: because of you know who who's watching and that they
Speaker 2: think that they're getting attention for doing the right thing.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, is it grounded integrity or
Speaker 2: is it because we're checking boxes and then they're watching
Speaker 2: it because not authentic.
Speaker 1: I think, just speaking generally, I do think that it's
Speaker 1: important for brands and and and large businesses to demonstrate
Speaker 1: and be accepting of of all different types of people.
Speaker 1: I think that uh, you know, we we as people
Speaker 1: in the queer community are here, we have been that
Speaker 1: it's not new, even though people are just finding out
Speaker 1: about it on their TikTok or something, We've been around,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And even though we didn't
Speaker 1: always have the words and we weren't always included, like,
Speaker 1: for instance, it was illegal for people to to be
Speaker 1: gay in public or at their job in the past,
Speaker 1: in the sixties, in the seventies, it was punishable by
Speaker 1: jail at certain times, it was punishable by being fired,
Speaker 1: and it was legal to discriminate at certain times. And
Speaker 1: so that doesn't say, hey, we want everybody to come
Speaker 1: out and tell us about it. Meant that people had
Speaker 1: to be more closeted and more secretive and you know,
Speaker 1: not share who they are. But it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: they weren't there. It just meant that they weren't talking
Speaker 1: about it. Right now that we have more acceptance and
Speaker 1: people are feeling free to be who they are. What
Speaker 1: people want is to be included in not only at
Speaker 1: their place of work, but also in marketing and represented
Speaker 1: because representation matters. And so in order to do that,
Speaker 1: companies need to be inclusive in their advertising, in their
Speaker 1: casting on their TV shows and things like that. And
Speaker 1: they understand that now that there was a moment in
Speaker 1: time and I think that they didn't understand that, but
Speaker 1: now I do think they understand that. And up until
Speaker 1: twenty up until a five or six years ago, I
Speaker 1: think it was easy for companies to sort of sign
Speaker 1: I LO their inclusion. They'd be I know that they
Speaker 1: would place an ad on Super Bowl that was all
Speaker 1: about Macho Macho for the people who watched Super Bowl
Speaker 1: and for the people who are watching Housewives. If the
Speaker 1: gays watching Housewives, they'll do a Housewives version as well.
Speaker 1: And so like you didn't necessarily they didn't have They
Speaker 1: weren't getting caught sort of playing all sides of the
Speaker 1: fields or all sides of the fence.
Speaker 2: It felt but it felt token, like a token ecoustic
Speaker 2: but it was token.
Speaker 1: It was token. I believe it was token.
Speaker 2: Right. But if brands are going to come and and
Speaker 2: and put that foot forward and market towards the trans community.
Speaker 2: You know, they better do it right because you want
Speaker 2: that to be mainstream. And so do you think that
Speaker 2: these brands do you think it was this It was
Speaker 2: just society not accepting it, or they botched the jaws,
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, all.
Speaker 1: Of it, all of it, all of it. They their
Speaker 1: their decision to be inclusive and feature trans people was
Speaker 1: the right decision to do. The entire they did it with.
Speaker 1: The tension was right, the execution wasn't necessarily correct, and
Speaker 1: the after effect in terms of how they behaved and
Speaker 1: how they reacted, some.
Speaker 2: Of them playing on the side laying it is going.
Speaker 1: To be public backlash when you're dealing with a group
Speaker 1: of people who are currently discriminated against when they're when
Speaker 1: you're dealing with the part of the community who have
Speaker 1: more than five hundred anti trans laws and policies being
Speaker 1: passed in many states in like in eighteen states in
Speaker 1: our country. Of course, that means there's going to be
Speaker 1: people who react in a certain way and are like,
Speaker 1: I don't like to see that person here. And we
Speaker 1: saw that certainly.
Speaker 2: It was billions for bad luck, like it was billions
Speaker 2: of time.
Speaker 1: But we also saw that backlash with Disney, We saw
Speaker 1: that backlash with other people, and Disney obviously stood by
Speaker 1: It was a little bit late, but they did stand
Speaker 1: by the queer and the trans community in a way
Speaker 1: that but like didn't target necessarily didn't. And some of
Speaker 1: these brands they sort of they they they made a
Speaker 1: bold statement, but then took it back away and said, actually, no,
Speaker 1: we're not making a bold statement and that is where
Speaker 1: than making the bold statement.
Speaker 2: Well, so that meant that they were trying to check
Speaker 2: a box. But it was bullshit, is what you're saying, Like,
Speaker 2: that's what I'm saying, Like they would, No, it's not bullshit.
Speaker 1: They were trying to check the box and they should
Speaker 1: have checked the box. And they understand that that box
Speaker 1: is real. But what they realize is there's not just
Speaker 1: one box. There's a there for every box. There's an
Speaker 1: opposite box that also is important to them. And so
Speaker 1: it's like.
Speaker 2: Trying to they were playing.
Speaker 1: They had to playing, Yeah, we want we want, we
Speaker 1: want vegetarians and we want meat eaters, so we have
Speaker 1: to do a vegetarian ad and we do a meat
Speaker 1: eater ad. And the meat eater see the vegetarian ad,
Speaker 1: they're going to be angry. And if the vegetarians see
Speaker 1: the meat eaters ad, they're going to be angry. Before
Speaker 1: they were able to just again silo their their ads
Speaker 1: and market to a certain group. But now you can't
Speaker 1: because now if there's a person who's in this marginalized group,
Speaker 1: if the vegetarian has ten million followers, everyone's going to
Speaker 1: find out. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a very different it's a very different world. Interesting. Okay,
Speaker 2: So let's get to Traders, which you loved and were
Speaker 2: excited to do. And it was like someone they say,
Speaker 2: don't meet your idols or whatever. They say, like right,
Speaker 2: because they might disappoint So it was it sounds from
Speaker 2: what I read that it was a disappointing experience.
Speaker 1: My experience was disappointing. I have to say, first, I
Speaker 1: still love the show. I am a huge fan of
Speaker 1: the show. I really support the show. I think it's
Speaker 1: a great a different type of kind of reality competition
Speaker 1: show that I think is interesting. I'm a horror fan,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a mystery fan, and so I do love that.
Speaker 1: But my experience, and while I do think that they
Speaker 1: did a good job casting. I think that there was
Speaker 1: a few missed opportunities in their casting and also in
Speaker 1: the way that the show played out and the way
Speaker 1: that the show was sort of run, So that impacted
Speaker 1: my experience, right.
Speaker 2: So it's more the production versus the cast the people.
Speaker 1: Now, I think the people that were cast created my
Speaker 1: experience was it was just the entire thing I encountered
Speaker 1: someone who I had an experience that was sort of
Speaker 1: affected by sort of a mob mentality and the fact
Speaker 1: that I was a loaner on the show. And had
Speaker 1: I not been a loaner on the show than maybe
Speaker 1: my experience would have been different. For instance, in season
Speaker 1: one of the American version of Traders, aside from the
Speaker 1: fact that it was half reality stars and half civilians
Speaker 1: who had never done reality, there were I think eighteen
Speaker 1: people in that cast, and there were two out queer
Speaker 1: people of color. My season season two there were twenty
Speaker 1: one of us and more people and less out queer people.
Speaker 1: I was the only out queer person on the show. Obviously,
Speaker 1: Alan Cumming is the host, He's not a contestant, and
Speaker 1: so I didn't really have a lot of people that
Speaker 1: I could identify with, and that was this I would
Speaker 1: I realized that very quickly when people were like, oh my,
Speaker 1: like when all the housewives, it's worthy thing. All the
Speaker 1: house on the four Housewives were grouping up and they
Speaker 1: were talking about the housewives stuff. Everybody else you know,
Speaker 1: there's the gamers, people were saying. In this season, there
Speaker 1: was a lot of people who were in like you know,
Speaker 1: the Challenge and shows like that, were gathering and then
Speaker 1: it was just me in the middle.
Speaker 2: You really felt like an outsider just.
Speaker 1: For that because I was on Drag Race. There was
Speaker 1: no other people from my show, even if they even
Speaker 1: if drag Race wasn't about doing drag like, there was
Speaker 1: nobody else on the show that I shared the experience.
Speaker 1: So I was the only one. And people didn't really
Speaker 1: watch drag Race, and so they just kind of had
Speaker 1: their i think, first impressions and that's all they could
Speaker 1: go by, and they didn't really take the time to
Speaker 1: really get to know me. And so that that was
Speaker 1: all on the contestants and the cast and that.
Speaker 2: Ever, did your skill in the game like that affected
Speaker 2: the game.
Speaker 1: The effected of my gameplay if someone had made the
Speaker 1: decision the cast didn't cast themselves. So if someone had
Speaker 1: made the decision to put more than one of me
Speaker 1: on there, then that would have been allowed me to
Speaker 1: have more people to align with. And so that's why
Speaker 1: I'm saying production obviously had a hand and who got
Speaker 1: on the show. It's not like the casts made their
Speaker 1: own choice of casting themselves. And so that's where production
Speaker 1: I think could benefit when I say missed opportunity. It's
Speaker 1: beneficial to the rest of the world to see different
Speaker 1: types of people. It's beneficial to the viewing audience to
Speaker 1: understand that there are queer people, that there are trains people,
Speaker 1: and it's beneficial for people who the viewers to understand
Speaker 1: that there's more than one black person. There's more than
Speaker 1: one trans person that exists in this world. And we
Speaker 1: don't always have to go with the formula of twenty
Speaker 1: two white people and one black person, twenty two straight
Speaker 1: people and one queer person, Like why does that have
Speaker 1: to be twenty two white people and one Asian person
Speaker 1: or one Latin person only, Like can we have how
Speaker 1: different would the show look if it was twenty two
Speaker 1: black people and one white person. Everybody knows that that
Speaker 1: would be a different experience. So why can't it be
Speaker 1: half and half? Or why why can't we mix it
Speaker 1: up a little? Can there be two? You know?
Speaker 2: Right right? You felt like it?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you felt like an outsider and you were at
Speaker 2: a disadvantage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was an outsider. And the show relies on,
Speaker 1: as many shows do, first impressions, And so first impressions
Speaker 1: have a lot to do with what you already think.
Speaker 1: If you don't know someone who comes in and they're
Speaker 1: from another country or of a different race, and you
Speaker 1: don't really have a lot of experience with these types
Speaker 1: of people, or someone who's queer, or someone who's this
Speaker 1: or that, and you don't understand, you don't really connect
Speaker 1: with that, or you don't know much about that person
Speaker 1: and that individual you haven't had a chance to get
Speaker 1: to know them as a person, have a lot of
Speaker 1: conversation with them. You're going to have to go go
Speaker 1: by whatever you know about that group when you were
Speaker 1: growing up. You know what I mean. If I had
Speaker 1: a really terrible experience with a farmer when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, and and and it was a horrible experience,
Speaker 1: then the next time I meet a farmer, I'm going
Speaker 1: to think of that horrible experience and I'm going to
Speaker 1: treat them the way that I would treat them given
Speaker 1: that experience. Now, if I get to meet a new
Speaker 1: farmer who's completely different and I have a wonderful experience,
Speaker 1: then it can start to change. But if I vote
Speaker 1: that farmer out immediately because I'm like, oh I know farmers,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't even know this person's name by
Speaker 1: then what are we learning? Right? Right?
Speaker 2: Right? All right, right?
Speaker 1: That?
Speaker 2: But you're assuming that the show wants to you know,
Speaker 2: here's what's interesting. This is where the line is. You're
Speaker 2: assuming that the show wants to take on that responsibility,
Speaker 2: and it's funny because they don't. Right well, because and
Speaker 2: that's what you're trying to change or just that's what
Speaker 2: you're trying to discuss the line and the question is
Speaker 2: whether or not a reality show should reflect just reality
Speaker 2: like and then who's deciding. So let's say to take
Speaker 2: off Republicans, which is a big, big criticism by the
Speaker 2: way of Housewives that people and the powers that be
Speaker 2: will fire people because of their political views. I've heard
Speaker 2: that too many times that I'm sure it is true,
Speaker 2: and I've actually heard it from producers like, oh, this person,
Speaker 2: you know voted for Trump, and so they and they
Speaker 2: don't like their views, so they want to fire them
Speaker 2: from the show. It's a real thing. It's a real
Speaker 2: thing on several Housewives shows. Should a reality show reflect
Speaker 2: reality or should a reality show reflect what should be?
Speaker 1: To answer that question, the answer to that question probably
Speaker 1: relies on what is your what is the impact that
Speaker 1: you want your show to make? Who do you want
Speaker 1: to watch a show? I agree, I want to accept
Speaker 1: the show, and what message do you want to send? Statistically,
Speaker 1: statistically for my situation, there's more queer people and black people.
Speaker 1: Definitely more queer people in terms of statistically and percentage
Speaker 1: wise in this country than than the odds of one
Speaker 1: out of twenty one. They're you know generally.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, good, good point, and.
Speaker 1: So that's less that's not reality. If we're going by
Speaker 1: like a cross section of who's out and who, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a lot more. It's actually, like, you know, two
Speaker 1: out of ten adults would identify as LGBT and so.
Speaker 2: Well, the question is the responsibility falls on this multi
Speaker 2: billion dollar public company to do that. It's just interesting
Speaker 2: when you have like you know, say you have like
Speaker 2: one of the Housewi shows, the New York Housewives. Let's
Speaker 2: just say, and then you decide you're going to put
Speaker 2: the three Upper east Side white women and you're going
Speaker 2: to have three black women and one trans person on
Speaker 2: the show, when their initial mandate was that it has
Speaker 2: to be people that are really friends. So now it's
Speaker 2: not even like like Ramona and Ebony were not friends
Speaker 2: and this show tried to like put them together to
Speaker 2: be friends, and then the audience is like, wait, this
Speaker 2: isn't real. So those are interesting. Yeah, it's so nuanced,
Speaker 2: but yeah, but you show.
Speaker 1: Yeah I was on show. It's not even friends, so
Speaker 1: so there's less of a reason for to kind of.
Speaker 2: You know, no, yeah, you could cast anybody you want, but.
Speaker 1: Even in the Housewives sort of uh examples. The key
Speaker 1: or the kicker is the business of it all. When
Speaker 1: when we're trying to make money, when we're trying to
Speaker 1: make money from the show with advertising and different things,
Speaker 1: then we needed to be as as appeal to as
Speaker 1: many people as possible. We want the Upper west Side,
Speaker 1: Upper east Side white women, but we also want people
Speaker 1: who are in Brooklyn who like we want everyone to
Speaker 1: watch it, and that's where where they have to figure
Speaker 1: out how they're going to balance it because they know
Speaker 1: that the people from Brooklyn, or the people from the
Speaker 1: South or the people from this aren't going to watch
Speaker 1: just one group that's not like them, and vice versa.
Speaker 1: The people from the Upper east Side are not necessarily
Speaker 1: watching a show about a bunch of black folks from Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: and so they have to find a way to balance it.
Speaker 1: And that's where it's maybe inauthentic, but you know, there
Speaker 1: are those pockets where it really does mix.
Speaker 2: You know, I guess yes, no, and you have to
Speaker 2: So what is I never heard the term dead name?
Speaker 1: Dead name is a term uh that's used by people
Speaker 1: in the queer community to uh two. Dead name refers
Speaker 1: to someone's a word or a name, a name that
Speaker 1: someone that is associated with someone previously in their past.
Speaker 1: And for for people who aren't queer, or who aren't
Speaker 1: in the trans community, or who that maybe to that
Speaker 1: term is new to it basically is the name that
Speaker 1: that person was given when they were younger, when their
Speaker 1: parents named them, for instance. But a lot of people
Speaker 1: change their names, and so so you know, for some people,
Speaker 1: being associated with their previous name can associate them with
Speaker 1: places and people and things that give them bad memories.
Speaker 1: For instance, someone was married and they had their abusive
Speaker 1: partner's name when they were married, they might want to
Speaker 1: whether they get married again or not, they might want
Speaker 1: to change that name, and they might not want to
Speaker 1: be referred to by that old name because it reminds
Speaker 1: them of that abusive partner a terrible time in their life,
Speaker 1: when they were depressed or when something was terrible going wrong.
Speaker 1: And it also may say to them it may if
Speaker 1: depending on the name, if that name is a well
Speaker 1: known name of an abuser, you might you're not going
Speaker 1: to want to keep that old name as a married person,
Speaker 1: because then other people will treat you differently and not
Speaker 1: for who you really are, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: When you meet someone new in life, they tell you
Speaker 1: their name, and what do you do next? You call
Speaker 1: them that name. You don't dig and be like, well,
Speaker 1: let me go back. You don't like, you know, get
Speaker 1: a private investment. Really is her name really Sally? You
Speaker 1: don't do that for the average person. When Sally comes
Speaker 1: up to you and says I'm Sally, you call her Sally,
Speaker 1: you know. And so that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, there is an effort by some to expose
Speaker 1: trans people only, not married people who are formerly connected
Speaker 1: to an abusive person, not cis gender people who have
Speaker 1: decided to change their name for different reasons. But there's
Speaker 1: an effort to expose trans people and sort of communicate
Speaker 1: that trans people are perpetrators and are liars, and are
Speaker 1: sneaky and are trying to be deceptive, And so people
Speaker 1: are trying to connect that to the desire to not
Speaker 1: be associated with a name that's harmful, a name that
Speaker 1: reminds us of a really terrible time in our lives,
Speaker 1: and a name that doesn't reflect who we are.
Speaker 2: Makes sense? Okay, So you're you act, you sing, you dance, Like,
Speaker 2: what's your primary passion and career?
Speaker 1: Girl, I'm I'm I'm cursed with the passion of wanting
Speaker 1: to do knitting and singing and dancing and politics all
Speaker 1: at the same time, which is terrible for you know
Speaker 1: who you are?
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's more terrible, is not. I think
Speaker 2: terrible is a terrible word for it. But I think,
Speaker 2: like for branding purposes, it's challenging because if you try
Speaker 2: to please everybody, you please nobody. You know what so so,
Speaker 2: so what is the base, like, what are you working on.
Speaker 2: But by the way, I'm I don't know how old
Speaker 2: you are. You're younger than I am, obviously, but I'm
Speaker 2: at a certain age where I really do exactly what
Speaker 2: I want to do. So I just was in Vancouver
Speaker 2: and did a Lifetime movie and I didn't have any
Speaker 2: reason to do it. It doesn't have anything to do
Speaker 2: with my brand. I did it because it was presented
Speaker 2: to me and it was different. But from like a
Speaker 2: let me say rand strategic perspective, if I were in
Speaker 2: my like thirties and my building phase, I might not
Speaker 2: have done it because it's not like the path I'm on.
Speaker 1: I grew up as an actor and a singer, and
Speaker 1: I remember, uh, you know, and that's musical theater is
Speaker 1: the thing obviously Broadway, like it's been a thing forever,
Speaker 1: acting and singing at the same time. But when it
Speaker 1: comes to Hollywood, which is different than Broadway, right, Broadway's
Speaker 1: like professional theater in New York primarily less commercial, yeah,
Speaker 1: less commercial. Hollywood is obviously extremely commercial, and so I
Speaker 1: remember seeing actors, serious actors sort of being made fun
Speaker 1: of for making making music, making an album, you know,
Speaker 1: or or singers being told, oh, she can't act why
Speaker 1: is she trying to get in this movie. You're a singer,
Speaker 1: stay in your own lane. And I do remember that
Speaker 1: being the j Low thing and other people. I do
Speaker 1: remember that being a thing. It's maybe still a thing,
Speaker 1: but certainly not as much as that it was twenty
Speaker 1: years ago. And so I think now the lanes are
Speaker 1: opening up for people. You know, people can talk about
Speaker 1: politics and also be a musician. I remember the Dixie
Speaker 1: Chicks had had quite a time being told literally shut
Speaker 1: up and sang, which was their film that they made
Speaker 1: when they started speaking out politically, Whereas now people expect
Speaker 1: actors to speak out on some of the terrible things
Speaker 1: that are happening in the world today, and so it's
Speaker 1: a different it's a different vibe. So in that realm,
Speaker 1: I think I'm at the right time and right place.
Speaker 1: I am an actor. I've been on Broadway, I've been
Speaker 1: in film and TV. I do sing. I went to
Speaker 1: school for musical theater, Broadways my passion. So having been
Speaker 1: on Broadway, of course I love to sing. So I
Speaker 1: love to sing, whether I'm on stage or not. I
Speaker 1: have music that I've made and put out. And so
Speaker 1: you're an entertainer, activist, entertainer one hundred and I don't
Speaker 1: even call myself an activist. Of course, I've been involved
Speaker 1: in activism, but I think an activist is someone who
Speaker 1: sort of does that primarily and maybe even earn a
Speaker 1: living from it. I don't in that.
Speaker 2: It's like me with philanthropy. People call me a philanthropist
Speaker 2: and it makes me uncomfortable, just like calling me an
Speaker 2: author because I've written books. It's not my identity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I've certainly done those things, and you're important
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I get people call you that because you
Speaker 2: go and do something and then you feel that.
Speaker 1: Then it's your responsibility.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, exactly, And it feels fraudulent too in a way.
Speaker 2: I get that. I don't like being called a philanthropist
Speaker 2: because it makes it just sounds like I don't like
Speaker 2: the way it sounds, even though I do a ton
Speaker 2: of charity. I get that. Yay, so so nice to
Speaker 2: talk to you and to you know, learn, I had
Speaker 2: such a great time, really really nice.
Speaker 1: You're a beautiful I mean you are beautiful inside and out,
Speaker 1: and I'm really thank you so much, and I have
Speaker 1: to say thank you. I know that the past couple
Speaker 1: of years have been wild when it comes to reality TV.
Speaker 1: But I do think that one of the big changes
Speaker 1: that has to happen in reality TV is a little
Speaker 1: bit more accountability, not only from networks and you know,
Speaker 1: people running the show and behind the scenes, but just
Speaker 1: in general being able to have more protections because reality
Speaker 1: TV is not going anywhere. It's here to stay. And
Speaker 1: the people who are on these reality shows, they are talent.
Speaker 1: They deserve to earn money, they deserve protections, and I
Speaker 1: think they deserve the same types of protections and considerations
Speaker 1: that actors would on a set of a movie or
Speaker 1: any other TV show. They are making entertainment, and people
Speaker 1: are making money off of these shows in the same
Speaker 1: way that they would make money off of sometimes more
Speaker 1: especially yea off of TV and film. And so although
Speaker 1: it's probably not the most desired way to go about things, necessarily,
Speaker 1: I think that you have set a precedent and I'm
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of other conversations take place because of it.
Speaker 1: And I'm really grateful to you for that, because I
Speaker 1: come from a reality show that I think that the performers,
Speaker 1: the talent on those shows. My original reality show, which
Speaker 1: was Drag Race, deserve you know, certain protections and considerations
Speaker 1: as well. And I think that ultimately the brand, the show,
Speaker 1: the health of the brand, and the integrity of the
Speaker 1: brand will be better off if they're able to make
Speaker 1: those types of considerations. And so what you've done has
Speaker 1: set a precedent and I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that because it's funny because I'm hearing from
Speaker 2: so many people that changes are being made, but no
Speaker 2: one will stand up and say that they're making changes,
Speaker 2: because then it indicates that they've been screwing up, you know,
Speaker 2: and to the point of before being an activist or
Speaker 2: a philanthropists like this isn't my cause, I'm not on
Speaker 2: Washington marching for reality television and you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 2: that's not my I just said something and wanted to,
Speaker 2: you know, be to support people who I didn't realize
Speaker 2: had been exploited. And it's not the popular people that
Speaker 2: are making a lot of money that are complaining. It's
Speaker 2: the people that felt discarded. And I know that the
Speaker 2: audience doesn't want their junk food taken away, and I
Speaker 2: get that it is entertaining, and you're right, it's not
Speaker 2: going anywhere. But there are a lot of things behind
Speaker 2: the scenes that people don't really know, and it's interesting.
Speaker 2: It's not what it seems, and no one knows what
Speaker 2: they sign up for, like they don't they say it now.
Speaker 2: By now I think people kind of do because it's
Speaker 2: been so focused on But there has been a shift
Speaker 2: and that's great. You know, I don't need everyone who's
Speaker 2: on the show is trying to protect the realm to
Speaker 2: credit me. It's totally cool. But I appreciate you saying
Speaker 2: that because I'm hearing that from a lot of people,
Speaker 2: like Underground saying it's changing and thank you, but you know,
Speaker 2: the powers that be won't say it, so it's cool. Well,
Speaker 2: thank you so much and really great to meet you
Speaker 2: and talk to you. Awesome, Thank you, awesome, I'd have
Speaker 2: a great day.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Babe,