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Speaker 1: O Loo.

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Speaker 2: Nice to meet you.

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Speaker 1: It's so great to meet you. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for having me on.

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Speaker 2: Of course, well thank you for being here. Have you

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Speaker 2: been how long have you been in New York since

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Speaker 2: you were first in New York? Because I know you

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Speaker 2: grew up in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and Wilmington, Delaware, which was

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Speaker 2: we'll get into, but have you been in New York

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Speaker 2: since you first came to New York.

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Speaker 1: I've been in New York since. I've been in New

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Speaker 1: York since the nineties, since nineteen ninety eight, since college.

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Speaker 1: So I grew up in those places and then came

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Speaker 1: right after high school, which needed desperately to like find

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Speaker 1: somewhere to go to be with the creatives, and New York.

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Speaker 2: Was a place to go to feel accepted. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: feel like even do you feel like even places like

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Speaker 2: La or Miami still aren't as accepting as a place

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Speaker 2: like New York. Is it the most accepting place in

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Speaker 2: the world? Have you traveled the world?

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Speaker 1: You know, I have traveled a bunch, and I would

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Speaker 1: say that New York is probably not the most accepting

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Speaker 1: place in the world. For probably not. It's definitely extremely

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Speaker 1: diverse and it's interesting even in places where there's diversity,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it doesn't have all the other things you need.

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Speaker 1: A lot of places that I've been to in the

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Speaker 1: South and in the Midwest seem to be really accepting.

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Speaker 1: And the biggest I guess signal of acceptance for me,

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Speaker 1: for the most part is as a trans person, because

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Speaker 1: right now that's a hot topic. What are the types

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Speaker 1: of experiences that people are having? Now? People are having

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Speaker 1: some bad experiences. But when I was sort of a

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Speaker 1: little younger but able to travel, I realized I was

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Speaker 1: having some good experiences in these places, and I was

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Speaker 1: really puzzled. But then I looked a little bit deeper.

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Speaker 1: It's not just that those places are just accepting. It's

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Speaker 1: that there's less visibility of queer people, people who are out,

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Speaker 1: whereas people in New York. Not everyone, of course, there's

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Speaker 1: all kinds of people in New York and la and

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Speaker 1: all the other places, but a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: New York are generally more, at least in like the

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Speaker 1: mainstream areas, sometimes more educated. They may have more exposure

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Speaker 1: to different groups and things like that. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: I remember watching a really early episode of the Real

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Speaker 1: World back in the day Miami can't remember his name,

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Speaker 1: one of the guys on there, but he was from

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Speaker 1: New York and this was in nineteen ninety three or four,

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Speaker 1: rural World, Miami, and I remember just having learned about

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Speaker 1: the rainbow flag. Now I know that is like everybody

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Speaker 1: knows about that now, but there was a moment in

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Speaker 1: time where people would use the rainbow flag as sort

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Speaker 1: of code. They would have a little sticker or a

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Speaker 1: little piece of jewelry, and to most people it was

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Speaker 1: just a rainbow. It didn't mean it had nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with the queer community. But to people in the community,

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Speaker 1: it was the signal that this place is LGBTQ friendly.

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Speaker 1: And I remember watching an episode and all the other

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Speaker 1: housemates and cast members were like, what's this rainbow on

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Speaker 1: the door of this place? And the guy from New

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Speaker 1: York was like, Oh, that means that they're gay friendly

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Speaker 1: or LGBT friendly. And he wasn't a part of the community,

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Speaker 1: but he was a business owner and kind of and

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Speaker 1: was a New Yorker and he just knew, so like,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, that's definitely interesting. And also New York is

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Speaker 2: like a big cafeteria where like the Upper East Side

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Speaker 2: is certainly not the same as going into the West Village,

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Speaker 2: you know, Harlem or Chelsea or Five Eye, so you know,

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Speaker 2: it could be a mean girl's cafeteria.

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Speaker 1: Too, exactly. So you know it's it is so wild.

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Speaker 1: You go into you go over a few streets, and

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Speaker 1: you're in a completely different area, different vibe.

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Speaker 2: You know, an acceptance level. If you're walking around westle Village,

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Speaker 2: you're gonna have a different experience. And if you're walking

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Speaker 2: on eighty, you know Carnegie, you know totally that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: So what how big is your family?

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Speaker 1: Uh, they're kind of small. You know. My mom has

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Speaker 1: four had four siblings. A couple of people have passed,

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Speaker 1: but my mom grew up with four siblings and they

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Speaker 1: all had most of them had kids, a couple of

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Speaker 1: them didn't, and but like one or two. So like,

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Speaker 1: you know, each generation is like five people.

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Speaker 2: And are you close with your are your parents alive?

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Speaker 2: Are you close with them?

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Speaker 1: I'm close with my mom. Yeah, both my parents are alive.

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Speaker 1: But I am close with my mom. Yeah, she's we're

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Speaker 1: kind of close in age. And so people you say,

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Speaker 1: when I was younger, people would just assume that we

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Speaker 1: were when we were both when we were both younger,

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Speaker 1: people would assume that we were siblings and not, you know,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't.

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Speaker 2: My mother, And you talk about not you know, sort

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Speaker 2: of stifling, not non conforming in high school. So how

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Speaker 2: did that work? And when you know, what was your

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Speaker 2: childhood like? Who somebody is is obviously their entire identity,

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Speaker 2: but having to explain it and talk about it and

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Speaker 2: also being an activist about it is not everybody. It's

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Speaker 2: probably like a gift and a burden because you constantly

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Speaker 2: have to explain yourself and explain your story it is.

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Speaker 1: It's both. It's both a gift and a burden, and

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Speaker 1: something I'm dedicated to because I think it's really important

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Speaker 1: because I want people to learn. I want to be

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Speaker 1: able to connect with people. I want my other you know,

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Speaker 1: siblings in the queer community to have a good experience,

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Speaker 1: especially people who are younger who may come after me.

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Speaker 1: And it also does feel like a bit of a

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Speaker 1: job sometimes, and so just.

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Speaker 2: Being you is sometimes a job. Just being who you

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Speaker 2: actually are like is just a job sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it can feel like that, especially if being me

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Speaker 1: allows me to connect with the things that I'm the

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Speaker 1: most passionate about. Of course, there It's not like someone's

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Speaker 1: forcing me to talk about trans rights or go to

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Speaker 1: march and a thing. But I think that those things

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Speaker 1: are really important, and you know, you're right. It's it's

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Speaker 1: really interesting. Like right now, in the current political climate,

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Speaker 1: it's a shame. I think the queer community and definitely

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Speaker 1: people in the trans community are getting a bit of

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Speaker 1: a bad rap from some people, and that means that

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Speaker 1: we have to go out and like do all this

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Speaker 1: extra labor to clean up after this sort of reputation

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Speaker 1: that people are that some people, especially some elected officials,

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Speaker 1: trying to spread these some of these elected officials, some

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Speaker 1: of these politicians, some of these like you two and

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Speaker 1: talking heads that for whatever reason find it very advantageous

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Speaker 1: or even lucrative.

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Speaker 2: But your childhood, so what was that like as it

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Speaker 2: pertains to who you are and not conforming?

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Speaker 1: It was actually pretty good, I would say, like by

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Speaker 1: today's standards, it was probably middle of the road. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I had some really tough experiences. I had, you know,

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Speaker 1: bullies in school. I've experienced discrimination and different things like that,

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Speaker 1: and I learned from those things and I think that

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Speaker 1: they were although they're not what I would wish for

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Speaker 1: anybody to have to go through, and certainly not necessarily

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Speaker 1: what I would want to go through or choose to

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Speaker 1: go through. It sometimes comes with the territory. So I

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Speaker 1: found the lesson in a lot of those things. But

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Speaker 1: I think by today's standards, my experience in general's middle

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Speaker 1: of the road. My family was you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: growing up in a black family in the nineties, there

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Speaker 1: was a good chance that, well, my family was all

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Speaker 1: like democrat like in terms of their political you know, associations,

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Speaker 1: and so they were very I guess the best word

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Speaker 1: would be like tolerant of everything across the board. Now

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Speaker 1: that's we learned that tolerant is not the ideal because

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Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily make room for like a lot of

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Speaker 1: understanding or really like have you know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: caring and understanding. But it means that they weren't like

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Speaker 1: constantly demonizing me. I have other friends who grew up

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Speaker 1: in a really you know, extremely religious household or an

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Speaker 1: extremely conservative household, and some of the things that their

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Speaker 1: parents would say, for instance, would be would not really

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Speaker 1: set the stage or be encouraging for them to share

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Speaker 1: with their parents who they really are or how they

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Speaker 1: really feel. And so I didn't have that experience, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't extreme progressive. I mean, I also know friends

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Speaker 1: who whose parents said to them at a very young age,

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Speaker 1: you can be anyone you want, and no matter who

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Speaker 1: you love, it's fine. That wasn't my experience either. But

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Speaker 1: my family understood from a really young age that I

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Speaker 1: was very eccentric and sort of swishy and very flamboyant

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Speaker 1: and femme, and I was able to find refuge very

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Speaker 1: early on in the arts, in singing and choir and

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Speaker 1: drama and acting and dance, and so my family was

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Speaker 1: super supportive of the arts. So as long as I

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Speaker 1: was in the arts, then anything I did was fine,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And they'd be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're just creative. That was like their excuse for me.

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Speaker 2: The arts like kind of saved you in a way.

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Speaker 2: If you didn't have that that you probably would have

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Speaker 2: felt like you were on an island girl.

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Speaker 1: It's the truth. I mean, if there was if there

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Speaker 1: was no if the arts wasn't present, which I mean,

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Speaker 1: that would be a completely different world. But like the

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Speaker 1: arts in schools specifically, because that's usually where I faced

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Speaker 1: most of my social experiences as a kid, That's what

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Speaker 1: you do, you socialize in school, So if you're going

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Speaker 1: to meet a bully, it's either going to be in

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood or another school or classmate or something. And

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Speaker 1: so a lot of my experience is the negative experiences

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Speaker 1: that I had around being teased for who I am

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Speaker 1: and being queer were in school. And so in school,

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Speaker 1: my refuge was definitely the arts art class, drama class,

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Speaker 1: music class, where I was a I was in well,

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Speaker 1: I was around other people who were also creative, uh

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Speaker 1: and maybe also would eventually be queer or part of

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Speaker 1: the trans community or whatever. But then also I was

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Speaker 1: in a sort of safety and numbers space where sports

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Speaker 1: wasn't the dominating activity where bullies would have felt out

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Speaker 1: of place for the most part going into that sort

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Speaker 1: of environment and.

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Speaker 2: So good at something. So being good at something in

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Speaker 2: that space means you're thriving.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And here's a shout out to anybody who has

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Speaker 1: the power to vote for or support music education in schools.

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Speaker 1: It's really important. I for until fifth grade, all from

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Speaker 1: like all the way through my schooling until sixth grade,

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Speaker 1: actually was able to enjoy playing the cello. And then

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Speaker 1: suddenly I moved to a school where they didn't have

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Speaker 1: music in school and that was gone forever, and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm friends with Ryan Murphy, and I have

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Speaker 2: to shout out that show Glee, because it really did

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Speaker 2: address everything and normalize and promote and celebrate and I

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Speaker 2: think that was an important show for you know. I

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Speaker 2: watched it with my daughter, and I loved watching it later,

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Speaker 2: like during the pandemic, not when I was first airing,

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Speaker 2: seeing every week them address something different, alcoholism, pregnancy, gay

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Speaker 2: a beauty. Yeah, Like it really addressed in music was

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Speaker 2: being popular for being in the you know, in the chorus,

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Speaker 2: which in my growing up course for me, I was

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Speaker 2: always in the chorus and I was in the plays.

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Speaker 2: But like it wasn't cool. It wasn't cool to be

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Speaker 2: you know at all. But I loved it. I loved

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Speaker 2: being in the chorus. Interesting, how old were you when

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Speaker 2: you came out?

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Speaker 1: I came out, like on a large scale, I came

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Speaker 1: out twice, at least. First I came out as liking boys,

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Speaker 1: and then I came out as trans and sort of

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Speaker 1: that's just like the process that I, you know, followed.

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Speaker 1: There are people who even don't and that's common for

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Speaker 1: a lot of trans people. It's to like sort of

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Speaker 1: step into your queerness first and then fine tune it,

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Speaker 1: you know, because especially people my age or people who

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Speaker 1: grew up in the nineties, there wasn't a lot of

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Speaker 1: articulation about being by or pan sexual or trans or

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Speaker 1: nuance nuance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, chocolate or vanilla. There's not like.

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Speaker 1: Exactly it was like gay or straight? What are you?

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Speaker 1: And so there was I'm not gay, I don't identify

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Speaker 1: as gay, but that was like the closest thing I had,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Also like when I got

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Speaker 1: check a box, Yeah, like by the same token. Like today,

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Speaker 1: as a black trans woman, people that I idolize are

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of people like Laverne Cox, who's

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Speaker 1: very well known and she's obviously black and trans. So

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Speaker 1: that's who I would point to today. But when I

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Speaker 1: was growing up, there wasn't someone like Laverne Cox's visible

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Speaker 1: in public on TV and in the public eye. So

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Speaker 1: the closest thing I had at a certain at one

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Speaker 1: moment in time was like Richard Simmons, who is not

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Speaker 1: really you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: You can't pick you know, is he because he never

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Speaker 2: discussed it, is he gay? Is he straight? He's out exactly.

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Speaker 1: But he was obviously very flamboyant. He had all the

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Speaker 1: characteristics that I would get teased for so and he

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Speaker 1: was owning his power. He was he was definitely a

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Speaker 1: person in control of his realm Ladies were like screaming

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Speaker 1: and hollering like he was Michael Jackson, you know, like

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Speaker 1: he had power, you know, And and I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Really an identity or like honesty, but he probably was

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Speaker 2: fighting a ton too, but he got to be expressed

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Speaker 2: himself exactly.

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Speaker 1: So that was the closest type of thing we had.

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Speaker 1: So by that token, I couldn't really articulate I'm a

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Speaker 1: trans woman back in the day interesting and so that

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Speaker 1: So then later on when I learned more about it

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Speaker 1: and realized and I found the art of drag, and

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Speaker 1: I realized, oh there are there's more. This is more

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Speaker 1: fine tune, and this feels more correct, and I was

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Speaker 1: able to come out as trans. And then, but even

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Speaker 1: for gay people, depending on the company you keep, sometimes

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Speaker 1: you have to come out more than once to your

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Speaker 1: friend group, to the people at work, to your family,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes those are different phases in your life, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like I realized, oh, you know that myself and another

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Speaker 1: trans woman. Yes, we may face a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: Or myself and another CIS woman like yourself. I'm we

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Speaker 1: might face a lot of this, a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that are similar in terms of discrimination, in terms of

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Speaker 1: the barriers that we face, or different things.

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Speaker 2: What's ais woman?

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Speaker 1: Assist woman is a woman who's not trans, and you

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Speaker 1: know that's that's it really is for the distinction.

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Speaker 2: Of of you know, I'm a woman, but we're different women.

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Speaker 1: We're different types of women. Yeah, I'm a trans woman

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Speaker 1: and a woman who who I aligns with her gender

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Speaker 1: at birth and never felt like anything was wrong or

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Speaker 1: that she needed to change anything terms of her gender. Uh,

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Speaker 1: would would be in the category of cist gender, and

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Speaker 1: that is uh. There has been some controversy around that term.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people who either don't understand

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Speaker 1: it or want to further marginalize the trans community, you know,

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Speaker 1: find issue with that word. Uh. It's not a slur.

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Speaker 1: It is a word that's meant to clarify because we

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Speaker 1: both have the experience of womanhood and even even there's uh, well,

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Speaker 1: I will say this, we both have the experience of

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Speaker 1: what it's like to be to grow up in a

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Speaker 1: in a world, in a country that is dominant, dominated

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Speaker 1: by men and the patriarchy, and we have the experience

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Speaker 1: of being treated a certain way because of our proximity

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Speaker 1: to femininity. You know, for you, that is probably natural

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Speaker 1: you are a cists woman. Obviously, for me, it is

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Speaker 1: natural for me to be fem and flamboyant. That's how

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Speaker 1: I've always been. But uh, to come into my womanhood,

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Speaker 1: I had to sort of take certain steps, and so

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Speaker 1: that's really that distinction. But here we are and we

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Speaker 1: both face a lot of the same things. But of

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Speaker 1: course my blackness other parts of my identity. Obviously, my

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Speaker 1: transness means that my route to that meant I had

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Speaker 1: to take a different intersection, and at that intersection, I

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Speaker 1: experience different things. At certain intersections there's red lights, and

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Speaker 1: certain intersections there's green lights, and sometimes there's no stoplight

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Speaker 1: at all, or sometimes there's a stop sign and a

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Speaker 1: stoplight and a crossing guard and a railroad train track

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Speaker 1: and yellow light.

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Speaker 2: You know, Well, I think words are really important, and

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Speaker 2: I think and opposed me too, and black Lives Matter

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Speaker 2: world and the pandemic gave people a lot of time

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Speaker 2: to sit home and like think and discuss and there

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Speaker 2: were a lot of there's a lot bubbling up. I

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Speaker 2: think words you know, became a big thing because not

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Speaker 2: everybody knew the right terms, and people are scared to speak.

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Speaker 1: The way that they're used really to tates how they're perceived.

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Speaker 1: And so there was a moment in time. Yeah, there

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Speaker 1: was a moment in time where the F word where

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Speaker 1: honestly anything that became a mainstream word that everyone whether

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Speaker 1: they were gay, straight, whoever they were, knew that word.

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Speaker 1: At some point. However, the dominating part of society feels

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Speaker 1: about that community, they're going to use that mainstream word

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Speaker 1: as a weapon against that smaller group. So if you're

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Speaker 1: a marginalized community and no one knows about you, then

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Speaker 1: you can use different words. It's going to have less

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Speaker 1: of an impact. But the minute people who like to

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Speaker 1: discriminate understand how that word is used and how it

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Speaker 1: associates you, they're going to use it to demonize you

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Speaker 1: and say and so for a lot of people, you know,

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Speaker 1: when there was a thing and there certainly still is

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Speaker 1: a thing in terms of discrimination called gay bashing, where

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Speaker 1: people who were queer we're getting beaten up, yes, being

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Speaker 1: identified on the street, and a lot of times, the

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Speaker 1: words that the maybe there were people who would just

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Speaker 1: go up and beat somebody up and not say anything,

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Speaker 1: but all so, those are the words that are associated

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Speaker 1: with hate when they're getting beaten up, when they're getting

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Speaker 1: discriminated against. And then the other part of it is

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Speaker 1: there is a nuance with language. Like we said, back

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Speaker 1: in the day, me and a bisexual woman and a

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Speaker 1: gay man would have all been just called gay. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think when we're when we're talking about visibility and

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Speaker 1: acceptance and people who we didn't know so much about visibility,

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Speaker 1: acceptance and education are things that are kind of constantly

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Speaker 1: swirling around and with a certain group, a marginalized community,

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Speaker 1: people who are discriminated against when we start to include

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Speaker 1: them into you know, like, at one point in time,

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Speaker 1: it was perfectly legal to fire someone if there if

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Speaker 1: they were even suspected of being gay gay, right and

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Speaker 1: so that was as recent as the nineties and so,

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Speaker 1: and even in the two thousands, right and so. And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that there's that still could be happening to

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Speaker 1: this day. Obviously, I think people think of that as

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Speaker 1: illegal now, and we're trying to get those same protections

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Speaker 1: for people in the trans community and But anyway, when

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Speaker 1: this people in these in these groups who've been discriminated

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Speaker 1: against in certain ways end up becoming more visible people

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Speaker 1: who are friendly and accepting to those parts of the community.

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Speaker 1: Oftentimes they adopt these words, but they have a little

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Speaker 1: less information, but they're trying to be open minded. They're

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Speaker 1: trying to make sure that they make everyone feel safe

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Speaker 1: and included. But then, of course when the bigots come

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Speaker 1: around and learn that word and.

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Speaker 2: Use it to write and weaponize it, so we got

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Speaker 2: to change the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: get it. I get I get it. Are you in

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Speaker 2: a relationship?

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Speaker 1: No, I love? Do you date?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: I'm not dating right now. Uh, there's someone who I'm

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Speaker 1: in love with and we uh we're we're not together

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Speaker 1: at the moment, but I hope we get back together again.

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Speaker 2: And is this person in the entertainment industry or are

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Speaker 2: they like a civilian, like a business? Like what type

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Speaker 2: of I'm not outing this person or whoever you're dating,

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Speaker 2: but I just meant, like, what's that, what's your type?

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Speaker 1: He is not a he's a civilian, he's not in entertainment,

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Speaker 1: And I don't I would be perfectly fine dating somebody

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Speaker 1: in entertainment, but I do think that it's probably not

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Speaker 1: what I want. He just came back into my life

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Speaker 1: and expressed some stuff to me, and so there's the

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Speaker 1: deeper conversation. We'll have to do a part too, because okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't fully know, but he's he's a really accepting guy.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't seem there are some men who deal with

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Speaker 1: sort of a sense of shame because of not because

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Speaker 1: they're it's just because they're inherently just ashamed of who

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Speaker 1: they are, or that they're dating trans women, for instance.

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Speaker 1: But it's I think it primarily has to do with

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Speaker 1: what other people think about them when they find out.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, there's a whole layer. That's why I'm

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Speaker 2: fascinated because I spoke to someone else about this, and

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Speaker 2: it's interesting because this person was dating someone who had

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Speaker 2: just was from New England and traditional, very traditional, very

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Speaker 2: you know. It's it's people are attracted to the opposite

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Speaker 2: a lot a lot of times, the opposite of like

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Speaker 2: their constricting lives. So are you attracted to conservative men

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Speaker 2: like you? Like?

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Speaker 1: What? That's really interesting? I I certainly have dated this

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Speaker 1: person is somewhat conservative, like socially liberal, but maybe politically

399
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 1: and financially, you know, like fiscally, you know, the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: I do think, and it is interesting there does seem

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Speaker 1: to be a pattern, Like you said, we're sort of

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Speaker 1: opposites attracting in terms of that or.

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Speaker 2: There's what's the word, they're not repressed stifled like because.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, I think some people who are

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Speaker 1: repressed are attracted to those who are who are more free. Perhaps,

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Speaker 1: of course, I think that speaks to like what we

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Speaker 1: really want is I think in the in the at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: are repressed or who've been sort of who need freedom,

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Speaker 1: want freedom, So they're attracted to freedom and liberation.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And for people like me who are maybe experiencing that

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Speaker 1: right now, what I'm looking for is a sense of

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Speaker 1: like sort of groundedness and not that you can't be

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Speaker 1: grounded and liberated or free, but you know, people in

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Speaker 1: terms of relationships, I think a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of times people who are more conservative and more sort

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Speaker 1: of straight laced have a closer connection to this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a hot take, a looser relationship with

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Speaker 1: business and capitalism and sort of the status quo and

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00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: a mainstream sort of persona and identity that's more accepted.

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Speaker 1: And for some people who've already found personally their identity,

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Speaker 1: their truth, they have what they need, you know, personally,

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Speaker 1: then being connected to that sort of stability can be

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Speaker 1: attractive as well.

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Speaker 2: Well, right, you've dealt with a certain amount of turmoil,

427
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Speaker 2: you may not be attracted to somebody who's dealing with

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Speaker 2: a certain turmoil. Both houses can't be on fire at

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Speaker 2: the same time. Like so nice to be, you know,

430
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Speaker 2: like a rock to someone who's like grounded in their

431
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Speaker 2: identity is attractive because sometimes you've had to battle with that,

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Speaker 2: So that makes that makes sense, you know safe. So

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Speaker 2: what do you think about how brands? Do you think

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Speaker 2: brands have botched this up? Like bud Light and Target,

435
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 2: and then it becomes this whole big thing, and then

436
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 2: you have people saying negative things and was it were

437
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 2: they was it the execution of these brands trying to

438
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 2: do the right thing? And were they authentically doing the

439
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 2: right thing or were they trying to check the box

440
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 2: because of you know who who's watching and that they

441
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: think that they're getting attention for doing the right thing.

442
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,719
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, is it grounded integrity or

443
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: is it because we're checking boxes and then they're watching

444
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: it because not authentic.

445
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 1: I think, just speaking generally, I do think that it's

446
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: important for brands and and and large businesses to demonstrate

447
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 1: and be accepting of of all different types of people.

448
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: I think that uh, you know, we we as people

449
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,239
Speaker 1: in the queer community are here, we have been that

450
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: it's not new, even though people are just finding out

451
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: about it on their TikTok or something, We've been around,

452
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And even though we didn't

453
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: always have the words and we weren't always included, like,

454
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: for instance, it was illegal for people to to be

455
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: gay in public or at their job in the past,

456
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: in the sixties, in the seventies, it was punishable by

457
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: jail at certain times, it was punishable by being fired,

458
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: and it was legal to discriminate at certain times. And

459
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,239
Speaker 1: so that doesn't say, hey, we want everybody to come

460
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: out and tell us about it. Meant that people had

461
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: to be more closeted and more secretive and you know,

462
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: not share who they are. But it doesn't mean that

463
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: they weren't there. It just meant that they weren't talking

464
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: about it. Right now that we have more acceptance and

465
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: people are feeling free to be who they are. What

466
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,719
Speaker 1: people want is to be included in not only at

467
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: their place of work, but also in marketing and represented

468
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: because representation matters. And so in order to do that,

469
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: companies need to be inclusive in their advertising, in their

470
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: casting on their TV shows and things like that. And

471
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: they understand that now that there was a moment in

472
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: time and I think that they didn't understand that, but

473
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: now I do think they understand that. And up until

474
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: twenty up until a five or six years ago, I

475
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: think it was easy for companies to sort of sign

476
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: I LO their inclusion. They'd be I know that they

477
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: would place an ad on Super Bowl that was all

478
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: about Macho Macho for the people who watched Super Bowl

479
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: and for the people who are watching Housewives. If the

480
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: gays watching Housewives, they'll do a Housewives version as well.

481
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: And so like you didn't necessarily they didn't have They

482
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: weren't getting caught sort of playing all sides of the

483
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: fields or all sides of the fence.

484
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: It felt but it felt token, like a token ecoustic

485
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 2: but it was token.

486
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: It was token. I believe it was token.

487
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 2: Right. But if brands are going to come and and

488
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: and put that foot forward and market towards the trans community.

489
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 2: You know, they better do it right because you want

490
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 2: that to be mainstream. And so do you think that

491
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: these brands do you think it was this It was

492
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 2: just society not accepting it, or they botched the jaws,

493
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying, all.

494
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: Of it, all of it, all of it. They their

495
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: their decision to be inclusive and feature trans people was

496
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: the right decision to do. The entire they did it with.

497
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: The tension was right, the execution wasn't necessarily correct, and

498
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: the after effect in terms of how they behaved and

499
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: how they reacted, some.

500
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: Of them playing on the side laying it is going.

501
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: To be public backlash when you're dealing with a group

502
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: of people who are currently discriminated against when they're when

503
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: you're dealing with the part of the community who have

504
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: more than five hundred anti trans laws and policies being

505
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: passed in many states in like in eighteen states in

506
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: our country. Of course, that means there's going to be

507
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,479
Speaker 1: people who react in a certain way and are like,

508
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: I don't like to see that person here. And we

509
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 1: saw that certainly.

510
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: It was billions for bad luck, like it was billions

511
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 2: of time.

512
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: But we also saw that backlash with Disney, We saw

513
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: that backlash with other people, and Disney obviously stood by

514
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: It was a little bit late, but they did stand

515
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: by the queer and the trans community in a way

516
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: that but like didn't target necessarily didn't. And some of

517
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: these brands they sort of they they they made a

518
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: bold statement, but then took it back away and said, actually, no,

519
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: we're not making a bold statement and that is where

520
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: than making the bold statement.

521
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: Well, so that meant that they were trying to check

522
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: a box. But it was bullshit, is what you're saying, Like,

523
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: that's what I'm saying, Like they would, No, it's not bullshit.

524
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: They were trying to check the box and they should

525
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: have checked the box. And they understand that that box

526
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: is real. But what they realize is there's not just

527
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: one box. There's a there for every box. There's an

528
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: opposite box that also is important to them. And so

529
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: it's like.

530
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: Trying to they were playing.

531
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: They had to playing, Yeah, we want we want, we

532
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: want vegetarians and we want meat eaters, so we have

533
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: to do a vegetarian ad and we do a meat

534
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: eater ad. And the meat eater see the vegetarian ad,

535
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: they're going to be angry. And if the vegetarians see

536
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: the meat eaters ad, they're going to be angry. Before

537
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: they were able to just again silo their their ads

538
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: and market to a certain group. But now you can't

539
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: because now if there's a person who's in this marginalized group,

540
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: if the vegetarian has ten million followers, everyone's going to

541
00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: find out. You know what I mean.

542
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a very different it's a very different world. Interesting. Okay,

543
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: So let's get to Traders, which you loved and were

544
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: excited to do. And it was like someone they say,

545
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: don't meet your idols or whatever. They say, like right,

546
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: because they might disappoint So it was it sounds from

547
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: what I read that it was a disappointing experience.

548
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: My experience was disappointing. I have to say, first, I

549
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: still love the show. I am a huge fan of

550
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: the show. I really support the show. I think it's

551
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: a great a different type of kind of reality competition

552
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: show that I think is interesting. I'm a horror fan,

553
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a mystery fan, and so I do love that.

554
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: But my experience, and while I do think that they

555
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: did a good job casting. I think that there was

556
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: a few missed opportunities in their casting and also in

557
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: the way that the show played out and the way

558
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: that the show was sort of run, So that impacted

559
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: my experience, right.

560
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: So it's more the production versus the cast the people.

561
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: Now, I think the people that were cast created my

562
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: experience was it was just the entire thing I encountered

563
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: someone who I had an experience that was sort of

564
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: affected by sort of a mob mentality and the fact

565
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: that I was a loaner on the show. And had

566
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: I not been a loaner on the show than maybe

567
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: my experience would have been different. For instance, in season

568
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: one of the American version of Traders, aside from the

569
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: fact that it was half reality stars and half civilians

570
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: who had never done reality, there were I think eighteen

571
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: people in that cast, and there were two out queer

572
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: people of color. My season season two there were twenty

573
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: one of us and more people and less out queer people.

574
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: I was the only out queer person on the show. Obviously,

575
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 1: Alan Cumming is the host, He's not a contestant, and

576
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: so I didn't really have a lot of people that

577
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: I could identify with, and that was this I would

578
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: I realized that very quickly when people were like, oh my,

579
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: like when all the housewives, it's worthy thing. All the

580
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: house on the four Housewives were grouping up and they

581
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: were talking about the housewives stuff. Everybody else you know,

582
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: there's the gamers, people were saying. In this season, there

583
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: was a lot of people who were in like you know,

584
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 1: the Challenge and shows like that, were gathering and then

585
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: it was just me in the middle.

586
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: You really felt like an outsider just.

587
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: For that because I was on Drag Race. There was

588
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: no other people from my show, even if they even

589
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: if drag Race wasn't about doing drag like, there was

590
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: nobody else on the show that I shared the experience.

591
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: So I was the only one. And people didn't really

592
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: watch drag Race, and so they just kind of had

593
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: their i think, first impressions and that's all they could

594
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: go by, and they didn't really take the time to

595
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: really get to know me. And so that that was

596
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: all on the contestants and the cast and that.

597
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: Ever, did your skill in the game like that affected

598
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: the game.

599
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: The effected of my gameplay if someone had made the

600
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 1: decision the cast didn't cast themselves. So if someone had

601
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: made the decision to put more than one of me

602
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: on there, then that would have been allowed me to

603
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: have more people to align with. And so that's why

604
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: I'm saying production obviously had a hand and who got

605
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: on the show. It's not like the casts made their

606
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: own choice of casting themselves. And so that's where production

607
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: I think could benefit when I say missed opportunity. It's

608
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: beneficial to the rest of the world to see different

609
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: types of people. It's beneficial to the viewing audience to

610
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: understand that there are queer people, that there are trains people,

611
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: and it's beneficial for people who the viewers to understand

612
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: that there's more than one black person. There's more than

613
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: one trans person that exists in this world. And we

614
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: don't always have to go with the formula of twenty

615
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: two white people and one black person, twenty two straight

616
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: people and one queer person, Like why does that have

617
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: to be twenty two white people and one Asian person

618
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: or one Latin person only, Like can we have how

619
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: different would the show look if it was twenty two

620
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: black people and one white person. Everybody knows that that

621
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: would be a different experience. So why can't it be

622
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: half and half? Or why why can't we mix it

623
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: up a little? Can there be two? You know?

624
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: Right right? You felt like it?

625
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: What?

626
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, you felt like an outsider and you were at

627
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: a disadvantage.

628
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was an outsider. And the show relies on,

629
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: as many shows do, first impressions, And so first impressions

630
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: have a lot to do with what you already think.

631
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: If you don't know someone who comes in and they're

632
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: from another country or of a different race, and you

633
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: don't really have a lot of experience with these types

634
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: of people, or someone who's queer, or someone who's this

635
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: or that, and you don't understand, you don't really connect

636
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 1: with that, or you don't know much about that person

637
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: and that individual you haven't had a chance to get

638
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: to know them as a person, have a lot of

639
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: conversation with them. You're going to have to go go

640
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: by whatever you know about that group when you were

641
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: growing up. You know what I mean. If I had

642
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: a really terrible experience with a farmer when I was

643
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: growing up, and and and it was a horrible experience,

644
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: then the next time I meet a farmer, I'm going

645
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: to think of that horrible experience and I'm going to

646
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: treat them the way that I would treat them given

647
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: that experience. Now, if I get to meet a new

648
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: farmer who's completely different and I have a wonderful experience,

649
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: then it can start to change. But if I vote

650
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: that farmer out immediately because I'm like, oh I know farmers,

651
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't even know this person's name by

652
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: then what are we learning? Right? Right?

653
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 2: Right? All right, right?

654
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: That?

655
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: But you're assuming that the show wants to you know,

656
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 2: here's what's interesting. This is where the line is. You're

657
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 2: assuming that the show wants to take on that responsibility,

658
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 2: and it's funny because they don't. Right well, because and

659
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: that's what you're trying to change or just that's what

660
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: you're trying to discuss the line and the question is

661
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 2: whether or not a reality show should reflect just reality

662
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: like and then who's deciding. So let's say to take

663
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: off Republicans, which is a big, big criticism by the

664
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: way of Housewives that people and the powers that be

665
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: will fire people because of their political views. I've heard

666
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 2: that too many times that I'm sure it is true,

667
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: and I've actually heard it from producers like, oh, this person,

668
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: you know voted for Trump, and so they and they

669
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 2: don't like their views, so they want to fire them

670
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 2: from the show. It's a real thing. It's a real

671
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: thing on several Housewives shows. Should a reality show reflect

672
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: reality or should a reality show reflect what should be?

673
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: To answer that question, the answer to that question probably

674
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: relies on what is your what is the impact that

675
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: you want your show to make? Who do you want

676
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: to watch a show? I agree, I want to accept

677
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 1: the show, and what message do you want to send? Statistically,

678
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: statistically for my situation, there's more queer people and black people.

679
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: Definitely more queer people in terms of statistically and percentage

680
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: wise in this country than than the odds of one

681
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: out of twenty one. They're you know generally.

682
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: Oh yes, good, good point, and.

683
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: So that's less that's not reality. If we're going by

684
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: like a cross section of who's out and who, you know,

685
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: it's a lot more. It's actually, like, you know, two

686
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: out of ten adults would identify as LGBT and so.

687
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: Well, the question is the responsibility falls on this multi

688
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 2: billion dollar public company to do that. It's just interesting

689
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: when you have like you know, say you have like

690
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 2: one of the Housewi shows, the New York Housewives. Let's

691
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: just say, and then you decide you're going to put

692
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 2: the three Upper east Side white women and you're going

693
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: to have three black women and one trans person on

694
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 2: the show, when their initial mandate was that it has

695
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: to be people that are really friends. So now it's

696
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 2: not even like like Ramona and Ebony were not friends

697
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: and this show tried to like put them together to

698
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: be friends, and then the audience is like, wait, this

699
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: isn't real. So those are interesting. Yeah, it's so nuanced,

700
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: but yeah, but you show.

701
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: Yeah I was on show. It's not even friends, so

702
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: so there's less of a reason for to kind of.

703
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 2: You know, no, yeah, you could cast anybody you want, but.

704
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: Even in the Housewives sort of uh examples. The key

705
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: or the kicker is the business of it all. When

706
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: when we're trying to make money, when we're trying to

707
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: make money from the show with advertising and different things,

708
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: then we needed to be as as appeal to as

709
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: many people as possible. We want the Upper west Side,

710
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: Upper east Side white women, but we also want people

711
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: who are in Brooklyn who like we want everyone to

712
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: watch it, and that's where where they have to figure

713
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: out how they're going to balance it because they know

714
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: that the people from Brooklyn, or the people from the

715
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 1: South or the people from this aren't going to watch

716
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: just one group that's not like them, and vice versa.

717
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: The people from the Upper east Side are not necessarily

718
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: watching a show about a bunch of black folks from Brooklyn,

719
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: and so they have to find a way to balance it.

720
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: And that's where it's maybe inauthentic, but you know, there

721
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: are those pockets where it really does mix.

722
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 2: You know, I guess yes, no, and you have to

723
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: So what is I never heard the term dead name?

724
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: Dead name is a term uh that's used by people

725
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: in the queer community to uh two. Dead name refers

726
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: to someone's a word or a name, a name that

727
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: someone that is associated with someone previously in their past.

728
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,959
Speaker 1: And for for people who aren't queer, or who aren't

729
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: in the trans community, or who that maybe to that

730
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: term is new to it basically is the name that

731
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: that person was given when they were younger, when their

732
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: parents named them, for instance. But a lot of people

733
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,320
Speaker 1: change their names, and so so you know, for some people,

734
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: being associated with their previous name can associate them with

735
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: places and people and things that give them bad memories.

736
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: For instance, someone was married and they had their abusive

737
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: partner's name when they were married, they might want to

738
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: whether they get married again or not, they might want

739
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: to change that name, and they might not want to

740
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: be referred to by that old name because it reminds

741
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: them of that abusive partner a terrible time in their life,

742
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: when they were depressed or when something was terrible going wrong.

743
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: And it also may say to them it may if

744
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 1: depending on the name, if that name is a well

745
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: known name of an abuser, you might you're not going

746
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: to want to keep that old name as a married person,

747
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: because then other people will treat you differently and not

748
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: for who you really are, you know what I mean.

749
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: When you meet someone new in life, they tell you

750
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: their name, and what do you do next? You call

751
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: them that name. You don't dig and be like, well,

752
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: let me go back. You don't like, you know, get

753
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: a private investment. Really is her name really Sally? You

754
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: don't do that for the average person. When Sally comes

755
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: up to you and says I'm Sally, you call her Sally,

756
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: you know. And so that's what we're trying to do.

757
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, there is an effort by some to expose

758
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 1: trans people only, not married people who are formerly connected

759
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: to an abusive person, not cis gender people who have

760
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: decided to change their name for different reasons. But there's

761
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 1: an effort to expose trans people and sort of communicate

762
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: that trans people are perpetrators and are liars, and are

763
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: sneaky and are trying to be deceptive, And so people

764
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: are trying to connect that to the desire to not

765
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: be associated with a name that's harmful, a name that

766
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: reminds us of a really terrible time in our lives,

767
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: and a name that doesn't reflect who we are.

768
00:41:50,600 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 2: Makes sense? Okay, So you're you act, you sing, you dance, Like,

769
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: what's your primary passion and career?

770
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: Girl, I'm I'm I'm cursed with the passion of wanting

771
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: to do knitting and singing and dancing and politics all

772
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: at the same time, which is terrible for you know

773
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: who you are?

774
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's more terrible, is not. I think

775
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,439
Speaker 2: terrible is a terrible word for it. But I think,

776
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 2: like for branding purposes, it's challenging because if you try

777
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 2: to please everybody, you please nobody. You know what so so,

778
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: so what is the base, like, what are you working on.

779
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: But by the way, I'm I don't know how old

780
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: you are. You're younger than I am, obviously, but I'm

781
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 2: at a certain age where I really do exactly what

782
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 2: I want to do. So I just was in Vancouver

783
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 2: and did a Lifetime movie and I didn't have any

784
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 2: reason to do it. It doesn't have anything to do

785
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 2: with my brand. I did it because it was presented

786
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 2: to me and it was different. But from like a

787
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 2: let me say rand strategic perspective, if I were in

788
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 2: my like thirties and my building phase, I might not

789
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: have done it because it's not like the path I'm on.

790
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: I grew up as an actor and a singer, and

791
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: I remember, uh, you know, and that's musical theater is

792
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: the thing obviously Broadway, like it's been a thing forever,

793
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: acting and singing at the same time. But when it

794
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: comes to Hollywood, which is different than Broadway, right, Broadway's

795
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: like professional theater in New York primarily less commercial, yeah,

796
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: less commercial. Hollywood is obviously extremely commercial, and so I

797
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: remember seeing actors, serious actors sort of being made fun

798
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: of for making making music, making an album, you know,

799
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: or or singers being told, oh, she can't act why

800
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 1: is she trying to get in this movie. You're a singer,

801
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: stay in your own lane. And I do remember that

802
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: being the j Low thing and other people. I do

803
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: remember that being a thing. It's maybe still a thing,

804
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: but certainly not as much as that it was twenty

805
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: years ago. And so I think now the lanes are

806
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 1: opening up for people. You know, people can talk about

807
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 1: politics and also be a musician. I remember the Dixie

808
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: Chicks had had quite a time being told literally shut

809
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: up and sang, which was their film that they made

810
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: when they started speaking out politically, Whereas now people expect

811
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: actors to speak out on some of the terrible things

812
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: that are happening in the world today, and so it's

813
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 1: a different it's a different vibe. So in that realm,

814
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: I think I'm at the right time and right place.

815
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: I am an actor. I've been on Broadway, I've been

816
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: in film and TV. I do sing. I went to

817
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: school for musical theater, Broadways my passion. So having been

818
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: on Broadway, of course I love to sing. So I

819
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: love to sing, whether I'm on stage or not. I

820
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: have music that I've made and put out. And so

821
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,439
Speaker 1: you're an entertainer, activist, entertainer one hundred and I don't

822
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 1: even call myself an activist. Of course, I've been involved

823
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: in activism, but I think an activist is someone who

824
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: sort of does that primarily and maybe even earn a

825
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: living from it. I don't in that.

826
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: It's like me with philanthropy. People call me a philanthropist

827
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: and it makes me uncomfortable, just like calling me an

828
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 2: author because I've written books. It's not my identity.

829
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I've certainly done those things, and you're important

830
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: to me.

831
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, I get people call you that because you

832
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 2: go and do something and then you feel that.

833
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: Then it's your responsibility.

834
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, exactly, And it feels fraudulent too in a way.

835
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 2: I get that. I don't like being called a philanthropist

836
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: because it makes it just sounds like I don't like

837
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 2: the way it sounds, even though I do a ton

838
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 2: of charity. I get that. Yay, so so nice to

839
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 2: talk to you and to you know, learn, I had

840
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: such a great time, really really nice.

841
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: You're a beautiful I mean you are beautiful inside and out,

842
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 1: and I'm really thank you so much, and I have

843
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: to say thank you. I know that the past couple

844
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: of years have been wild when it comes to reality TV.

845
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 1: But I do think that one of the big changes

846
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,479
Speaker 1: that has to happen in reality TV is a little

847
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: bit more accountability, not only from networks and you know,

848
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: people running the show and behind the scenes, but just

849
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: in general being able to have more protections because reality

850
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: TV is not going anywhere. It's here to stay. And

851
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: the people who are on these reality shows, they are talent.

852
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: They deserve to earn money, they deserve protections, and I

853
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: think they deserve the same types of protections and considerations

854
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: that actors would on a set of a movie or

855
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: any other TV show. They are making entertainment, and people

856
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:46,439
Speaker 1: are making money off of these shows in the same

857
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 1: way that they would make money off of sometimes more

858
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: especially yea off of TV and film. And so although

859
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: it's probably not the most desired way to go about things, necessarily,

860
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: I think that you have set a precedent and I'm

861
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of other conversations take place because of it.

862
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: And I'm really grateful to you for that, because I

863
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: come from a reality show that I think that the performers,

864
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: the talent on those shows. My original reality show, which

865
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: was Drag Race, deserve you know, certain protections and considerations

866
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: as well. And I think that ultimately the brand, the show,

867
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: the health of the brand, and the integrity of the

868
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: brand will be better off if they're able to make

869
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 1: those types of considerations. And so what you've done has

870
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: set a precedent and I'm grateful for that.

871
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 2: I appreciate that because it's funny because I'm hearing from

872
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 2: so many people that changes are being made, but no

873
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 2: one will stand up and say that they're making changes,

874
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 2: because then it indicates that they've been screwing up, you know,

875
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 2: and to the point of before being an activist or

876
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: a philanthropists like this isn't my cause, I'm not on

877
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 2: Washington marching for reality television and you know what I mean, Like,

878
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 2: that's not my I just said something and wanted to,

879
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, be to support people who I didn't realize

880
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: had been exploited. And it's not the popular people that

881
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 2: are making a lot of money that are complaining. It's

882
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 2: the people that felt discarded. And I know that the

883
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 2: audience doesn't want their junk food taken away, and I

884
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 2: get that it is entertaining, and you're right, it's not

885
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 2: going anywhere. But there are a lot of things behind

886
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: the scenes that people don't really know, and it's interesting.

887
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 2: It's not what it seems, and no one knows what

888
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,439
Speaker 2: they sign up for, like they don't they say it now.

889
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 2: By now I think people kind of do because it's

890
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: been so focused on But there has been a shift

891
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 2: and that's great. You know, I don't need everyone who's

892
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 2: on the show is trying to protect the realm to

893
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 2: credit me. It's totally cool. But I appreciate you saying

894
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: that because I'm hearing that from a lot of people,

895
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: like Underground saying it's changing and thank you, but you know,

896
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 2: the powers that be won't say it, so it's cool. Well,

897
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: thank you so much and really great to meet you

898
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 2: and talk to you. Awesome, Thank you, awesome, I'd have

899
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 2: a great day.

900
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Babe,