WEBVTT - The Phonographic Memory of Marc Shaiman

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<v Speaker 1>This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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<v Speaker 1>Thing from iHeart Radio. You can't Stop.

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<v Speaker 2>And races down hilt.

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<v Speaker 1>You can try to stop this season stir, but you

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<v Speaker 1>know you naw win. It is a skill that feels

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<v Speaker 1>like a gift from the divine. To write an unforgettable song,

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<v Speaker 1>one that gets stuck in your head or makes you

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<v Speaker 1>want to dance is a talent that should be exalted.

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<v Speaker 1>Now imagine it's your life's work for fifty years. That's

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<v Speaker 1>you Can't Stop the Beat from the two thousand and

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<v Speaker 1>two Broadway cast recording of Hairspray, written by my Guest

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<v Speaker 1>Today composer and lyricist Mark Shaman. Shaman is a two

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<v Speaker 1>time Emmy, Grammy, and BAFTA winner, as well as a

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<v Speaker 1>Tony Award recipient. He's also been nominated for seven Academy Awards.

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<v Speaker 1>His five decade career began at just sixteen years of age.

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<v Speaker 1>His work as a composer, lyricist, arranger, and producer spans film, television,

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<v Speaker 1>and theater. In addition to the hit musical Hairspray, Shaman

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<v Speaker 1>is known for co creating the musicals Catch Me If

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<v Speaker 1>You Can, Charlie in the Chocolate Factory and Some Like

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<v Speaker 1>It Hot. His film scores include smash hits like The

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<v Speaker 1>Adams Family, City Slickers, Sister Act, Sleepless in Seattle, and

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<v Speaker 1>the first South Park Movie. Perhaps most famously, Mark Shaman

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<v Speaker 1>was also a frequent collaborator with the late Rob Reiner.

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<v Speaker 1>For Reiner, he penned the scores of classic films like

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<v Speaker 1>When Harry Met Sally, Misery, A Few Good Men, The

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<v Speaker 1>American President, and many others. As someone who set out

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<v Speaker 1>to work in the theater, I was curious how Shaman

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<v Speaker 1>and Ryner's paths crossed between New York and.

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<v Speaker 2>La I was lucky enough to work up at Saturday

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<v Speaker 2>Night Live freelance for you know, after the original cast

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<v Speaker 2>left and Paul Schaeffer was, you know, the funny Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>guy at the piano, and then he wasn't there for

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<v Speaker 2>a few years, and so I started getting that call

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<v Speaker 2>to go up there, and so I met Billy Crystal

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<v Speaker 2>and Martin Short, Christopher Guest. I worked their previous years,

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<v Speaker 2>but I worked there a lot that year that they

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<v Speaker 2>came on that one year and really hit it off

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<v Speaker 2>with them all, and Billy Crystal asked me to go

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<v Speaker 2>out on the road with him, and I would play

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<v Speaker 2>for his act, even though it was a comic act.

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<v Speaker 2>He would sing a Sammy Davis Junior, he would sing

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<v Speaker 2>his other things. And also I would underscore some of

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<v Speaker 2>his monologues. And so Rob Reiner came to see that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of heard me underscoring even though there's comedic, but

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<v Speaker 2>he heard that. And then Billy was making when Harry

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<v Speaker 2>met Sally and asked Rob, what are you going to

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<v Speaker 2>do for the music?

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<v Speaker 1>And Rob said, I need.

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<v Speaker 2>A guy who knows like every song from the American Songbook.

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<v Speaker 2>And Billy was like, have I got a guy for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Because Billy is a real mens like that. And I

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<v Speaker 2>went and met Rob and I brought him my Rogers

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<v Speaker 2>and Heart's Songbook because after reading the script, I knew

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<v Speaker 2>that the song if they asked me, I could write

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<v Speaker 2>a book ends with the lyric. Then the world discovers

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<v Speaker 2>as my book ends how to make two Lovers from Friends,

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<v Speaker 2>which seemed perfect for When Harry met Sally and Rob

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<v Speaker 2>said you're hired, and that began a lifelong relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>What did you like about what did you prefer about

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<v Speaker 1>working with him?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I often think about the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>once you've established that you have the talent to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>I know that Rob would say the same thing. It's

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<v Speaker 2>about the hang. I'm sure you understand and know that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, once everyone knows that, you know you got

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<v Speaker 2>the job and you can do what you can do.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that

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<v Speaker 2>you're with and so you know, Rob and I was

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<v Speaker 2>always a great hang. When he would come over to

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<v Speaker 2>listen to what I was doing, we would sit in

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<v Speaker 2>kibbets for hours and then eventually get around to the music.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what I mostly think of when I think of

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<v Speaker 2>him is just the time together, laughing.

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<v Speaker 1>When you were producing music with him and scoring music

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<v Speaker 1>for his films, was a lot of that worked un

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<v Speaker 1>at Warners. Is that where Castle Rock had their equipment,

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<v Speaker 1>so to speak, where would you go? We went everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, that's about just whatever recording studio is available

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<v Speaker 2>at the time you're recording. When Harry met Sally was

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<v Speaker 2>the first one, and that one I was just arranging

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<v Speaker 2>and orchestrating existing music, helping to choose the records or

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<v Speaker 2>the songs, and deciding whether to use the recordings or

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<v Speaker 2>create our own. At the same time, Rob's friend Bobby Columbia,

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<v Speaker 2>who used to be the drummer for Blood, Sweat and Tears.

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<v Speaker 2>Bobby Columbia had become an executive at CBS at Columbia Records,

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<v Speaker 2>and he said, I've got this kid named Harry Connick

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<v Speaker 2>Junior who sounds like he'd be perfect for this. So

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<v Speaker 2>I was sent up to Seattle where Harry was doing

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<v Speaker 2>a gig with just this trio. This was before he

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<v Speaker 2>was blew up, you know, because the movie is what

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<v Speaker 2>made that happen, and I think we both kind of

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<v Speaker 2>felt this probably the same with like, well, who's this

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<v Speaker 2>guy who needs Like we both thought I'm the young

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<v Speaker 2>whipper snapper at the piano and figuring it out. And

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<v Speaker 2>the first session when he came down to LA with

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<v Speaker 2>his trio, I had worked it out with Rob. You

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<v Speaker 2>know what song, what tempo, what key it had to

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<v Speaker 2>be in because it had to segue into another record

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever. And that first meeting, that first session, Harry

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<v Speaker 2>was a little like, don't tell me how to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>play or what to play. I'm not just coloring in

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<v Speaker 2>the lines that you've drawn. I mean it was just

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<v Speaker 2>a subtext all day. Arthur Murray, Yeah, yeah, so I

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<v Speaker 2>remember driving home and I think I even called Rob

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<v Speaker 2>and said, see Mondays with the orchestra, it's we can't

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<v Speaker 2>have that kind of like big discussions about everything with

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<v Speaker 2>an orchestra sitting there, you know the clock, you just

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<v Speaker 2>can't have that. I was petrified of what was going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen. Meanwhile, it was that song I could write

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<v Speaker 2>a book, was going to be the first thing we

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<v Speaker 2>were going to record. They had filmed the scene. This

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<v Speaker 2>is where Harry and Sally are at a New Year's

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<v Speaker 2>Eve celebration and they start dancing and they kind of

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<v Speaker 2>realize there's a chemistry there. And so I had said,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a perfect spot for that song, and let's

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<v Speaker 2>make sure that lyric about make two lovers of friends

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<v Speaker 2>falls right at that perfect moment. And I had orchestrated

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<v Speaker 2>and I had, you know, adored Nelson Riddle's orchestrations for

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<v Speaker 2>Frank Sinatra. You know that was my you know, the king,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I created a Frank Sinatra Nelson Riddle style

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<v Speaker 2>orchestration for this one moment. And then Harry was behind me.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't see him, but I counted the orchestra and

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<v Speaker 2>he starts singing and whatever had happened the previous Friday

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<v Speaker 2>between us dissipated immediately. We were just fell in love.

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<v Speaker 2>It was like he was singing like Frank Sinatra and

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<v Speaker 2>I was doing my best Nelson riddle and it was.

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<v Speaker 1>Just, you know, it was just together again for the

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<v Speaker 1>first yes.

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<v Speaker 2>So then we made that record. So then Bobby Columbia said, hey, guys,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of the records that we used in the movie,

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<v Speaker 2>thank god for us, they couldn't get the rights to

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<v Speaker 2>use for soundtrack. It's actually mostly el Fitzgerald, whoever negotiated

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<v Speaker 2>her deals back in the day, made it very different

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<v Speaker 2>about using in a movie and using it on a record.

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<v Speaker 2>So he said, how about you guys just make your

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<v Speaker 2>own record, kind of inspired by the music from when

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<v Speaker 2>Harry met Sally, here's a couple of dollars. So Harry

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<v Speaker 2>and I went off to New York and we recorded

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<v Speaker 2>that album, which blew up.

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<v Speaker 1>All Sinatra standards.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it was just all the songs that were in

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<v Speaker 2>the movie, some of them Sinatra, one of the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>one being It Had to Be You. And that made

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<v Speaker 2>Harry connic Junior a star, and it made both of

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<v Speaker 2>us suddenly the co producers of a of a platinum

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<v Speaker 2>plus album, and it just that's how it all started.

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<v Speaker 2>And at the same time I was working with Bette Midler,

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<v Speaker 2>so that was Beaches, and the same kind of thing

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<v Speaker 2>happened there. An album where I was arranging and orchestrating

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<v Speaker 2>blew up and I suddenly had these two albums and

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<v Speaker 2>these two movies, and then damn, it just started one

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<v Speaker 2>after another.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm shooting Goes to Mississippi with Rob and Rob was

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the actress director, as people mentioned all the time,

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<v Speaker 1>and on the refaget he says to me, you mind

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<v Speaker 1>if I put the camera in the back of the church,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna put the in the court room. I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>put a way in the back, big master of all

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<v Speaker 1>you guys doing. And you got your big speech, would

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<v Speaker 1>you do it one more time for me? May maybe

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<v Speaker 1>do it twice? It was like a three page or

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<v Speaker 1>two in page monologue court summation. You're gonna put the

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<v Speaker 1>camera in the back of shoot you might we do that.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll do like maybe two takes. I go, yeah, that

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<v Speaker 1>sounds great to be You see what I mean? You

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<v Speaker 1>got a great piece of dialogue speech. You do it

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<v Speaker 1>over and over again because you know your next movie,

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<v Speaker 1>you're gonna say one line the whole day. It's gonna

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<v Speaker 1>be get down, everybody, get down. So when you're a

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<v Speaker 1>real dialogue, you know you really like it. And then

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<v Speaker 1>he says to Diane lad comes to work one day,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll never forget that's gonna be worshiped. Her worship She

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<v Speaker 1>has a dog. And she says, and she goes, now, Rob, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>would I give him the gun? It makes no sense, Rob,

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<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't just hand him the wrath of this piece

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<v Speaker 1>of evidence that her husband had hidden. He was the

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<v Speaker 1>judge in the case. So Rob sits down with Diane

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<v Speaker 1>Ladd on a piece of furniture on this set and

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<v Speaker 1>talks to her for like forty five minutes. He trys

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<v Speaker 1>to be goes, would you give me a minute? And

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<v Speaker 1>I leave? And he talks to her and he and

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<v Speaker 1>when it's over, he looks, he goes, we're gonna have

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<v Speaker 1>to do this sooner or later. Might as well get

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<v Speaker 1>it out of the way. Sooner, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>She had to go through her process, regardless of how

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<v Speaker 1>many gears she was grinding to a halt. And I

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<v Speaker 1>was amazed how patient he was. I didn't expect him

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<v Speaker 1>to be that patient because he seems so.

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<v Speaker 2>That actually surprises me because the one thing I would

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<v Speaker 2>never say.

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<v Speaker 1>That he was patient.

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<v Speaker 2>He was with Diane Love when you say he was

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<v Speaker 2>an actors director, so I know when he would come

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<v Speaker 2>over to me, Misery was the next movie, and now

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<v Speaker 2>I was really composing my own music, and he would

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<v Speaker 2>always like what he heard, but sometimes he would say

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<v Speaker 2>can I go here?

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<v Speaker 1>And then he would sing a note.

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<v Speaker 2>And it took a few movies for me to finally

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<v Speaker 2>say to him, Rob, if you're going to keep singing

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<v Speaker 2>giving me line readings with notes, I'm going to send

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<v Speaker 2>you to a voice teacher to exactly span your reign.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, when you did Misery was I told you had

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<v Speaker 1>some doubts about that because it was kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>dark movie.

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<v Speaker 2>Or well, so I had done when Harry met Sally.

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<v Speaker 2>I had learned how music gets put in a movie.

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<v Speaker 2>And then Rob came to see an HBO special that

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<v Speaker 2>Billy Crystal made where I got to score like five

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<v Speaker 2>minutes of it in a real cinematic fashion, and he

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<v Speaker 2>called me the next morning and said, hey, buddy, you

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<v Speaker 2>want to do my next movie. It's a psychological thriller.

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<v Speaker 2>Called misery, and of course I want to say yes.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't going to say no, but I was petrified.

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, why would he? I don't know that

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<v Speaker 2>I can do that, especially a psychological thriller. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>I would understain if someone thought, hey, you want to

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<v Speaker 2>do a burlesque, a movie about Vaudeville, I would get.

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<v Speaker 2>And I had just gotten with an agent, and even

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<v Speaker 2>my agent, Richard said to Rob, Rob, are you sure

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<v Speaker 2>he can do this? What makes you think he can

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<v Speaker 2>do this? And Rob said, Richard, talent is talent. And

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<v Speaker 2>that became Richard, my agent's mantra on all these other

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<v Speaker 2>jobs he started getting me where no one had heard

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<v Speaker 2>anything I'd ever written. He would just give them the

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<v Speaker 2>Rob Reiner talent is talent. So I've robbed the thank

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<v Speaker 2>for that, and then I also have robbed the thank

0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.960
<v Speaker 2>for that. I used to smoke dope constantly.

0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Why I met reference to this?

0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:00.560
<v Speaker 2>I read this, Yeah, so I you know I smoked

0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.079
<v Speaker 2>ope before a movie, before a meal, before sex.

0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.480
<v Speaker 1>I think I just smoked up while you were composing always.

0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:10.320
<v Speaker 1>So what were you the most stoned on? What's the

0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.240
<v Speaker 1>music that is unearthed from your deepest level.

0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Of stone, No nothing, nothing that's on in a movie,

0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.480
<v Speaker 2>because I just thought I had to get stone before

0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.839
<v Speaker 2>I could write or arrange music. And by the second

0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.320
<v Speaker 2>or third day of trying to write misery, and I

0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:28.600
<v Speaker 2>was so petrified. Anyway, I couldn't wake up at ten

0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.600
<v Speaker 2>in the morning and take a few tokes. I'd want

0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:33.559
<v Speaker 2>to go to sleep by noon, and I had to

0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:35.920
<v Speaker 2>work until ten at night. I mean, writing a movie

0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.679
<v Speaker 2>score is a big time stop. So I thought, let

0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.800
<v Speaker 2>me try one day, can I write music without getting stoned?

0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.760
<v Speaker 2>And I did? And then it was another day and another,

0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:47.400
<v Speaker 2>and then I thought, let me get through the end

0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.480
<v Speaker 2>of the week, and so Rob Reiner helped me quit

0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:51.600
<v Speaker 2>pot cold turkey.

0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.559
<v Speaker 1>God did you find that when you were stone? Sometimes?

0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:57.400
<v Speaker 1>And then you would come back and revisit and you

0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.280
<v Speaker 1>weren't stone. Was the music not what it might have been? Yeah?

0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:04.480
<v Speaker 2>I think it was Hemingway maybe who said write drunk

0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:06.400
<v Speaker 2>and edit sober.

0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.400
<v Speaker 1>Talk about Ben Midler, because you have collaborations with people

0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.679
<v Speaker 1>where they're doing shows. One thing was like Billy Crystal

0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:18.559
<v Speaker 1>does his farewell on Leno and you came in. That's

0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:19.960
<v Speaker 1>that's on Leno shows.

0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.480
<v Speaker 2>Both of Leno's farewells. Okay, there were many of them.

0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:25.560
<v Speaker 1>You're going on there and what are you doing to

0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:26.640
<v Speaker 1>help contribute to the.

0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Show writing the special lyrics. I mean, that's something I've

0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.920
<v Speaker 2>done with Billy. You know, we did all those Oscar medleys,

0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.800
<v Speaker 2>the medleys, so for both those Leno appearances. Yeah, the

0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.760
<v Speaker 2>second one, the one that was the actual farewell, that

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:42.600
<v Speaker 2>was we wrote for Carol Burnett and Oprah and Kim

0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Kardashian and it was quite a group of people who

0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.400
<v Speaker 2>sang so long farewell. We wrote new lyrics the sound

0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.200
<v Speaker 2>of Yeah. So that's just something Billy and I do

0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.640
<v Speaker 2>all the constantly. You know. The greatest one was with

0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.839
<v Speaker 2>Bette Midler on the final Johnny Carson. I mean, that's

0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:03.079
<v Speaker 2>a memory of mine. Will it's just you.

0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.679
<v Speaker 1>Never thought you'd cry from Johnny Carson. Yeah, what do

0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:06.040
<v Speaker 1>you do?

0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.720
<v Speaker 2>You know that the song again one for my Baby

0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:10.720
<v Speaker 2>went for the Road. And that's the kind of other

0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:12.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of gig that I do a lot, or did

0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.040
<v Speaker 2>a lot where Bet called and said they asked me

0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:16.040
<v Speaker 2>to be the last guest.

0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:17.760
<v Speaker 1>What song should I sing?

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 2>And I remember I was taking a shower after getting

0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.840
<v Speaker 2>off the phone with her, and I thought it's quarter

0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.720
<v Speaker 2>to three, there's no one in the place. It's about

0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.040
<v Speaker 2>your singing to a bartender who's been listening to you

0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.720
<v Speaker 2>talk and talk and he just wants to go home.

0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.480
<v Speaker 1>And I thought it's perfect. Now you're in a bar

0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:34.240
<v Speaker 1>with him, you know.

0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.200
<v Speaker 2>So I called Bet dripping wet, I've got it the

0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.840
<v Speaker 2>perfect song, and she always says, yeah, what else she got?

0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.240
<v Speaker 2>But she came over and we worked it out.

0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.560
<v Speaker 1>Quarter to three, there's no one in the place, six

0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:52.920
<v Speaker 1>cent you and me, so set them up.

0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 2>Joe got a little story I think you should know.

0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:04.640
<v Speaker 2>And we did change a few of the lyrics at

0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:06.760
<v Speaker 2>the end, which was rather ballsy of us to change

0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.520
<v Speaker 2>Johnny Mercer lyrics, But we addressed Johnny Carson specifically in

0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 2>the last verse, for all of the years, for the last,

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:18.640
<v Speaker 2>for the tears for the class that you showed, tears.

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.520
<v Speaker 1>For the class that you showed.

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 3>Make it one for my baby and one.

0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:44.600
<v Speaker 1>For the road.

0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:43.440
<v Speaker 2>Had long.

0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Road.

0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.560
<v Speaker 2>And you know that moment was just I'll never ever

0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:05.000
<v Speaker 2>forget it.

0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:06.880
<v Speaker 1>The most compelling thing about that, because I've seen that

0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:10.280
<v Speaker 1>many many times, is how attentive he has. Meaning here's

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 1>a guy who had the attention span sometimes not every show.

0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:15.360
<v Speaker 1>If he liked you when you were an old pal

0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:17.800
<v Speaker 1>and he's right there with Dean Martin and those kinds

0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.280
<v Speaker 1>of icons, but at other times he had the attention

0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.920
<v Speaker 1>span of a TITSI flock and you'd sit there, but

0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.720
<v Speaker 1>he's locked into her eyes. He doesn't move. He thinks

0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.920
<v Speaker 1>he's you'd think he's carry Grant with ingrad Bergman, and

0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.280
<v Speaker 1>that the director kind of knew that that was maybe

0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:34.920
<v Speaker 1>going to happen, because that angle that had never been

0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 1>used before over Bett's shoulder of Carson watching and listening.

0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.160
<v Speaker 2>It's so you're just mesmerized by it and exactly what

0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:44.640
<v Speaker 2>you're saying.

0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:52.440
<v Speaker 1>He's so locked in. Composer and lyricist Mark Shaman. If

0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 1>you enjoy conversations with composers whose careers began at a

0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 1>young age, check out my episode with Paul Williams.

0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.800
<v Speaker 3>Most pop songwriters writing for a film or a stage play.

0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:06.800
<v Speaker 3>When I have a hit, of course, we all want

0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.360
<v Speaker 3>to have a hit. But because I come from an

0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.040
<v Speaker 3>acting background, I want to advance this story and I

0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.399
<v Speaker 3>want to expose something of the inner life of the

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.159
<v Speaker 3>character I'm writing for. That was the whole point with Kermlin.

0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.480
<v Speaker 3>There is that he has a spiritual life. You know,

0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:22.399
<v Speaker 3>I was never a kid that within a gang that

0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.040
<v Speaker 3>had a tree house. When I walked on the set

0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.439
<v Speaker 3>of The Muppet Show, I was with a gang that

0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:28.200
<v Speaker 3>had a treehouse.

0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:28.359
<v Speaker 2>Well.

0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.200
<v Speaker 1>To hear more of my conversation with Paul Williams, go

0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.200
<v Speaker 1>to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Mark

0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.200
<v Speaker 1>Shaman talks about how he wound up living in Bette

0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:57.320
<v Speaker 1>Midler's guest room at age seventeen. I'm Alec Baldwin and

0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:02.280
<v Speaker 1>this is Here's the Thing. Sixteen years old, Mark Shaman

0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.280
<v Speaker 1>decided to leave school and begin working in the New

0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:10.560
<v Speaker 1>York theater scene. This bold decision paid off handsomely. It

0:18:10.680 --> 0:18:14.680
<v Speaker 1>wasn't long before Mark found himself playing at Downtown theaters

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.879
<v Speaker 1>and eventually the stages of Saturday Night Live. Incredibly, before

0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:24.200
<v Speaker 1>he'd even turned eighteen, Shaman would find himself arranging music

0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.040
<v Speaker 1>for his childhood idol. I wanted to know how he

0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:32.040
<v Speaker 1>managed to kickstart his career at such a tender age.

0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.919
<v Speaker 2>I went to New York with a friend, I Witman,

0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.919
<v Speaker 2>I met Well, I met Scott Whitman there, which was

0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.280
<v Speaker 2>amazing because I just went to see a musical that

0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:43.120
<v Speaker 2>was at the Actors playhouse that used to be there

0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.320
<v Speaker 2>in Sheridan Square called Boy Meets Boy. It was like

0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.600
<v Speaker 2>a nineteen thirty style musical, but about two guys. This

0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.399
<v Speaker 2>is back in like nineteen oh exactly nineteen seventy six,

0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:54.879
<v Speaker 2>and we ran into some other friends from New Jersey

0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.240
<v Speaker 2>on the street and we said, oh, let's let's step

0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.760
<v Speaker 2>into this little place here and catch up. And there

0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.360
<v Speaker 2>was a piano in there, and so I was sixteen

0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.480
<v Speaker 2>and full of you know, vim and vigor, and I

0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.520
<v Speaker 2>went to the piano and started playing, and just like

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.080
<v Speaker 2>out of an old black and white movie, the bartender

0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.960
<v Speaker 2>was sweeping up and he stopped and he went, hey, kid,

0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:16.480
<v Speaker 2>you're good, wait right here. And he went down to

0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:20.000
<v Speaker 2>the duplex two doors down where there was a comedy

0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.679
<v Speaker 2>group that was looking for a funnier piano player than

0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.080
<v Speaker 2>who they had. And they came in and said, can

0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.399
<v Speaker 2>you play together wherever we go from Gypsy? And I

0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.800
<v Speaker 2>played it like it is in the musical. They said no, no, no,

0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.320
<v Speaker 2>can you play it cheesy? I said, oh, you mean

0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.480
<v Speaker 2>like out of bar Mitzvah, like or how Steve and

0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:38.040
<v Speaker 2>Edie would do it on a merv Griffin where we go.

0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.360
<v Speaker 2>They were like, that's it, You're hired. And John Michelle,

0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:44.760
<v Speaker 2>the guy who was sweeping up behind the bar, he

0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.520
<v Speaker 2>also hired me that very afternoon to play at Maurice's

0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.680
<v Speaker 2>Crisis because of I guess, the way I played piano.

0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.159
<v Speaker 2>No one could imagine that I was only sixteen years old.

0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh so your talent that the piano obscured your age,

0:19:57.359 --> 0:19:57.800
<v Speaker 1>you believe.

0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you see pictures of me, I'm.

0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:01.840
<v Speaker 1>A very boyish face when you were younger, and imagine

0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:03.639
<v Speaker 1>you were very boyish. Yeah, I know.

0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:05.639
<v Speaker 2>I was like I was a pimple on two legs.

0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:09.240
<v Speaker 2>I remember that cli so. But John Michelle hired me,

0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:11.199
<v Speaker 2>never asked me how old I was. And when I

0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:16.560
<v Speaker 2>turned seventeen that October, I lied and said, it's my

0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.680
<v Speaker 2>birthday and I'm turning eighteen, so I have been here.

0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Well I shouldn't have been. They didn't seem to care,

0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.840
<v Speaker 2>but I was lying. I was only turning seventeen. That

0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:28.679
<v Speaker 2>New Year's Eve, they lowered me from the balcony in

0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.280
<v Speaker 2>a diaper, and that's when I thought, maybe it's time

0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.080
<v Speaker 2>to move on to another job. But that was my

0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:36.360
<v Speaker 2>start at Maurice Crisis.

0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:37.360
<v Speaker 1>Where'd you go from there.

0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.840
<v Speaker 2>I was very lucky my fairy tale. I just adored

0:20:41.840 --> 0:20:44.679
<v Speaker 2>Bet Midler. When Boogie Woogie Biggle Boy came on the

0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.159
<v Speaker 2>radio when I was like thirteen and a kid in

0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.560
<v Speaker 2>New Jersey, I became obsessed with her, truly obsessed, like

0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 2>posters on the wall, lifting money from my father's wallet

0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.960
<v Speaker 2>and cutting school to go see her in concert on Broadway.

0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.320
<v Speaker 2>And then Scott whit who was the director of that

0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.639
<v Speaker 2>comedy act, I started staying at his apartment to play

0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.760
<v Speaker 2>for the act on the weekends. And he lived across

0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:09.520
<v Speaker 2>the hall from one of Bette Midler's backup singers who

0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:13.320
<v Speaker 2>were called the Harlettes, and they wanted to do their

0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 2>own act. And there I was across the hall, and

0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.200
<v Speaker 2>I was at seventeen at that point, and I would

0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:20.840
<v Speaker 2>work for free, and I was right there, and I

0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.160
<v Speaker 2>knew the kind of harmonies they wanted from my no no, no, no,

0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.360
<v Speaker 2>These are you know, beyond it, beyond yeah, legit. So

0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:32.280
<v Speaker 2>I became their musical director. Then Bett said, girls, I'm

0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.520
<v Speaker 2>doing another tour. I'll let you do a whole opening

0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.119
<v Speaker 2>act if you come back, and also be my backup singers.

0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.119
<v Speaker 2>So I was flowing to La and after having the

0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.600
<v Speaker 2>fantasy of running down a n aisle to Bette Midler,

0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 2>when I went to see her in concert, saying oh,

0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.040
<v Speaker 2>miss Midler, I knew every note of every song, of

0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.399
<v Speaker 2>every arrangement on every record, Please let me play for you.

0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.480
<v Speaker 2>I was flowing to La I taught Bett's band the

0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Harlett's material, and then in walks Bette Midler and I'm

0:21:57.840 --> 0:21:59.400
<v Speaker 2>just like a year and a half away from having

0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.680
<v Speaker 2>her posters on the wall, and I'm watching her rehearse,

0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:05.080
<v Speaker 2>and she calls out a song to the band that

0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.000
<v Speaker 2>she wants to do from her third album, but the

0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.440
<v Speaker 2>music is in on their music stands, and one of

0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:11.080
<v Speaker 2>the hard lets goes over to Bet and says, you

0:22:11.080 --> 0:22:16.400
<v Speaker 2>see him back, and Steve Harrington moment very and Bet

0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:18.480
<v Speaker 2>said do you know how to play? No gesturing, And

0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:20.639
<v Speaker 2>I got to actually walk up to a stage and say, oh,

0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.280
<v Speaker 2>miss Midler, I know every note of every song of

0:22:23.320 --> 0:22:25.480
<v Speaker 2>every arrangement on every record, Please let me play for you.

0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:27.879
<v Speaker 2>So my dream came true. I hadn't even turned eighteen

0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:31.680
<v Speaker 2>and you're seventeen. Yeah. And because she's a frugal gal,

0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:34.239
<v Speaker 2>she said, you know, stick around. I could use you,

0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 2>but instead of putting me in a hotel, she put

0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:39.040
<v Speaker 2>me in her guest room of her rented house that

0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:41.600
<v Speaker 2>she was staying at. So and it wasn't even it

0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:43.360
<v Speaker 2>wasn't even a guest house in the backyard.

0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:44.280
<v Speaker 1>La.

0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:51.119
<v Speaker 2>I was living with Bete Midler suddenly for the Maize.

0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:52.080
<v Speaker 1>Crisis to Bette Miller's house.

0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, which was was sort of the same material, only

0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.440
<v Speaker 2>only the right person was singing at her piano. Yeah.

0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.800
<v Speaker 1>What is about her that you sustained? I mean, obviously

0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.520
<v Speaker 1>people have these batteries, these linkages between people, and you

0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.080
<v Speaker 1>have this profound relationship with her. What was it about

0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:10.840
<v Speaker 1>her that you admire the most?

0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, I just love the way she performs, as anyone

0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:16.159
<v Speaker 2>who's seen her does. You know the fact that she

0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:18.960
<v Speaker 2>does it all, that she can be so funny and

0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:21.440
<v Speaker 2>then heartbreaking, and how she can turn it on a dime,

0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.040
<v Speaker 2>how she can change you know, she's just so in

0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.520
<v Speaker 2>command and she's just the greatest.

0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.520
<v Speaker 1>She's the opposite of what my friend said about Chicago.

0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:32.800
<v Speaker 1>My friend said that a famous actress came in she

0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:36.199
<v Speaker 1>did the piece to play Roxy in Chicago, and in

0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:38.680
<v Speaker 1>that cycle of famous dames that came into the show,

0:23:38.920 --> 0:23:41.240
<v Speaker 1>and he said, she walks in and she leaves, and

0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:43.320
<v Speaker 1>everyone's sitting there quietly, and he turns to me and goes,

0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:46.080
<v Speaker 1>she can't sing, she can't dance, she can't act. She's

0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.479
<v Speaker 1>a star. Well that can awesome, which as bad as

0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:51.320
<v Speaker 1>the opposite. She can sing and dance and act.

0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:56.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And we have a similar personality of you know,

0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:58.760
<v Speaker 2>like the title of my book, never mind the Happy

0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.199
<v Speaker 2>that comes from my mother. One New Year's Day, my

0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:04.359
<v Speaker 2>sister said, ma, I want to be the first to

0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:06.800
<v Speaker 2>wish you a happy and healthy New Year. And my

0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:10.159
<v Speaker 2>mother defined judaism when she said, never mind that happy.

0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:13.160
<v Speaker 2>So that's in.

0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:14.400
<v Speaker 1>My where'd you grow up again?

0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Jersey in New Jersey?

0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Right over there? Yeah, over there?

0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:21.360
<v Speaker 2>And so Bet had had her father was a similar

0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:25.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of personality, and we both just clicked that way

0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:28.760
<v Speaker 2>and argue that way. You know, we have a real

0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:30.320
<v Speaker 2>brother sister relationship.

0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Was she right a lot of the time? What did

0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:34.600
<v Speaker 1>she be alone on you being by most of the time?

0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, her taste is impeccable, but like I

0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:41.440
<v Speaker 2>mentioned before, she's always saying what else you got? She's

0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:44.520
<v Speaker 2>just always second guessing? Was a cover every best Even

0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:47.280
<v Speaker 2>that night on the Johnny Carson show. On the final one,

0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:49.840
<v Speaker 2>she asked the band that afternoon, what's his favorite song?

0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:52.280
<v Speaker 2>And they all said, Here's that Rainy Day? And I

0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 2>could see the wheels turning in her. Even then, she

0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:57.520
<v Speaker 2>was still doubting, should we really do one for my baby?

0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:02.640
<v Speaker 2>And sure enough, during that show, she starts singing Here's

0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.280
<v Speaker 2>that Rainy Day with him, and he starts singing with her,

0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:08.720
<v Speaker 2>which is a whole other magical moment. But I'm backstage

0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:11.200
<v Speaker 2>at the piano because the next thing that's gonna happen

0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:13.800
<v Speaker 2>is one for my baby, and I have a little

0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:17.680
<v Speaker 2>TV monitor on the piano, and I'm having this schizoid

0:25:18.400 --> 0:25:20.800
<v Speaker 2>conversation in my head. On the one hand, I'm going,

0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:23.440
<v Speaker 2>this is magical. What's happening between Bett and Johnny Carson?

0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:26.159
<v Speaker 2>And he's singing, and he's singing in key and she

0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:28.560
<v Speaker 2>the piano players not coming in. Should I join in?

0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:31.800
<v Speaker 2>The other part of my brain is coming She's spoiling.

0:25:31.880 --> 0:25:35.280
<v Speaker 2>She knows if this moment happens, she's not gonna have

0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:38.280
<v Speaker 2>to sing the song that we've planned. And I'm like, no, no, no,

0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:40.919
<v Speaker 2>I should I should start banging away to make it

0:25:40.960 --> 0:25:44.320
<v Speaker 2>stop or something. But I'm a piano player, I'm a companist.

0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:46.320
<v Speaker 2>I start joining and so I actually got to play

0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:49.200
<v Speaker 2>for Johnny Cartson singing Here's that Rainy Day. And luckily

0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:51.760
<v Speaker 2>they came back and said, okay, we're still set for

0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 2>the big ballad at the end. So it all worked out.

0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:57.520
<v Speaker 2>But she's always wondering, what else, what else.

0:25:57.280 --> 0:26:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Could it be? You did a piece with Peter I

0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:02.280
<v Speaker 1>did how We're going to describe it in a minute.

0:26:02.280 --> 0:26:04.760
<v Speaker 1>But when I was in college in gw in Washington

0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:07.280
<v Speaker 1>for the first three years, one woman I dated, she

0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:09.080
<v Speaker 1>really got me turned onto a lot of you know,

0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:11.639
<v Speaker 1>what would be pretty eclectic music for somebody from my

0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:14.320
<v Speaker 1>background who was smoking pot in the woods and massive

0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:17.119
<v Speaker 1>people were listening to Beatles, Zeppelin, Stones, who you know,

0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:20.080
<v Speaker 1>British Invasion, rock and roller in my mind know Clapton

0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:23.800
<v Speaker 1>and Moody Blues and so forth. And she turned me

0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:27.119
<v Speaker 1>on too, Peter Allen and it's Live with Peter rolland

0:26:27.160 --> 0:26:29.640
<v Speaker 1>and Boss Skags I never heard of, and they turned

0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:31.840
<v Speaker 1>me on him, who I love. And it always takes

0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:35.760
<v Speaker 1>me back to Hugh Jackman and here he's playing Wolverine

0:26:35.800 --> 0:26:39.760
<v Speaker 1>and all the psychotic craziness and murderers and superheroes, and

0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 1>he plays Peter Allen on broad I find that rain. Yeah,

0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:45.359
<v Speaker 1>it is breathtaking. Describe how you met him and how

0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:46.320
<v Speaker 1>you we were involved with him.

0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:48.280
<v Speaker 2>That was another out of the blue. I got a

0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:52.399
<v Speaker 2>phone call from Craig Zayden and Neil Meren. Craig was

0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:55.440
<v Speaker 2>going to direct Peter Allen was doing a Broadway concert

0:26:55.920 --> 0:26:59.240
<v Speaker 2>called Up and One that was basically just a concert,

0:26:59.400 --> 0:27:01.439
<v Speaker 2>but it had a kind of a story of his

0:27:01.480 --> 0:27:04.760
<v Speaker 2>life through line. And they had heard about me from

0:27:04.840 --> 0:27:08.320
<v Speaker 2>this cabaret and Bette Midler's circuit and they called me

0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:09.639
<v Speaker 2>out of the blue and said, you want to be

0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:12.200
<v Speaker 2>Peter Allen's musical director for the show. I was that time.

0:27:12.240 --> 0:27:15.920
<v Speaker 2>I was ripe old age of nineteen and I was

0:27:15.920 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 2>was my first Broadway gig. You mentioned Clapton. I have

0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:21.359
<v Speaker 2>to tell you I have a Rob Reiner Clapton story

0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:24.560
<v Speaker 2>on the movie The Story of Us with Bruce Willis

0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:28.760
<v Speaker 2>and Michelle Pfeiffer. Rob said, buddy, Eric Clapton's going to

0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:31.000
<v Speaker 2>write songs for the movie, but would you still help

0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:33.960
<v Speaker 2>figure out how to turn those songs into the underscore?

0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:37.159
<v Speaker 1>And I was like work with Clapton Okay, let me

0:27:37.200 --> 0:27:37.679
<v Speaker 1>get back to you.

0:27:37.760 --> 0:27:41.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but when you talked about Rob patients in patients

0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:45.240
<v Speaker 2>at the one scoring session, there's a song that Clapton

0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:47.880
<v Speaker 2>wrote that runs throughout the movie, but in the end titles.

0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:49.959
<v Speaker 2>We did like a full record version of it. So

0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:52.560
<v Speaker 2>I had a string section and I had this one

0:27:53.520 --> 0:27:56.879
<v Speaker 2>evocative chord, a very film noir chord over. It seemed

0:27:56.880 --> 0:27:59.760
<v Speaker 2>to fit the lyric and the chord that Clapton had written.

0:28:00.040 --> 0:28:02.840
<v Speaker 2>But it's what we call a C minor major seventh chorded.

0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:05.640
<v Speaker 2>But the first time the strings played it, it sounded

0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:08.640
<v Speaker 2>a little odd because it can be almost discordant.

0:28:08.800 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 1>Let's say yes.

0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:12.520
<v Speaker 2>And Rob immediately went what's that? And you know, he

0:28:12.560 --> 0:28:14.480
<v Speaker 2>starts rubbing that one side of his head and that

0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:16.800
<v Speaker 2>would only like one side of his head would sweat.

0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:19.000
<v Speaker 2>He said, what's that? I said, just let me work

0:28:19.040 --> 0:28:20.720
<v Speaker 2>with the strings for just a minute to get the

0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:23.760
<v Speaker 2>right balance. And so I'm working for a few ten

0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:26.560
<v Speaker 2>twenty seconds morning He's still like, what is that?

0:28:26.680 --> 0:28:27.280
<v Speaker 1>What is that?

0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:30.040
<v Speaker 2>And I'm still trying to get my nice chord in there.

0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:32.679
<v Speaker 2>And then Eric clapped and strolled out to the conductor's

0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:37.080
<v Speaker 2>stand and said, you know, Mark those chords at measure

0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:42.080
<v Speaker 2>thirty three. I think they're just too attractive. And I

0:28:42.080 --> 0:28:43.880
<v Speaker 2>had to tell the whole orchestra, I said. I was

0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:47.640
<v Speaker 2>just told to get over it, and the nicest way

0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I've ever possibly heard, the classiest way.

0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:52.240
<v Speaker 1>To they're just too attractive.

0:28:51.760 --> 0:28:54.160
<v Speaker 2>Which was true. It just meant it's calling your ear

0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:56.600
<v Speaker 2>too much to it. You're calling too much attention.

0:28:56.320 --> 0:28:58.280
<v Speaker 1>To sleeping out. Yeah.

0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:00.560
<v Speaker 2>Also, they him and Rob came over that house once

0:29:00.640 --> 0:29:03.040
<v Speaker 2>to work out stuff. I was also working on the

0:29:03.040 --> 0:29:05.120
<v Speaker 2>South Park movie at the same time, and I need

0:29:05.160 --> 0:29:08.000
<v Speaker 2>to talk about in tense deadlines. I had to finish

0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.520
<v Speaker 2>what I was writing to get to the orchestrator and

0:29:10.640 --> 0:29:13.520
<v Speaker 2>Rob and Eric Clapton were just talking, and then Eric

0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Clapton had his guitar out and I could tell he

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:17.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of wanted to just sit and jam with me,

0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:20.280
<v Speaker 2>but I had to get back to the South Park

0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:23.600
<v Speaker 2>and I actually had to tell them both to get lost.

0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:26.719
<v Speaker 2>So my big chance to jam with Eric Clapton, I

0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:27.400
<v Speaker 2>threw it away.

0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:30.959
<v Speaker 1>Well. Speaking of the South Park movie, which I am

0:29:31.000 --> 0:29:34.800
<v Speaker 1>the president of the Film Actors Guild, bag big banner.

0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:36.320
<v Speaker 2>Of that was the second movie.

0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:38.400
<v Speaker 1>Yesaid was that that was the.

0:29:38.680 --> 0:29:41.320
<v Speaker 2>Team America, which I got I got.

0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:42.760
<v Speaker 1>Fired from you got fired?

0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:45.800
<v Speaker 2>Why Well, I'd done South Park bigger, longer, and uncut

0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:48.400
<v Speaker 2>and had the greatest, greatest experience.

0:29:47.960 --> 0:29:49.120
<v Speaker 1>Of my life with the two of them.

0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:51.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, and Trey Parker is you know that

0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:53.600
<v Speaker 2>word that gets thrown around genius.

0:29:54.320 --> 0:29:55.560
<v Speaker 1>He is a genius.

0:29:55.760 --> 0:29:59.680
<v Speaker 2>He can do it all right, music, lyrics, act right,

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:04.960
<v Speaker 2>wrecked and extremely open and collaborative. So when I got

0:30:04.960 --> 0:30:08.200
<v Speaker 2>involved through Scott Rudin on this on the South Park movie,

0:30:08.680 --> 0:30:12.720
<v Speaker 2>I suddenly was the oldert like professor who would help

0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:17.200
<v Speaker 2>Trey realize his vision of creating a musical and that

0:30:17.200 --> 0:30:20.680
<v Speaker 2>that was just the greatest year maybe I'd ever had

0:30:20.720 --> 0:30:23.800
<v Speaker 2>it in the movies. And then so they know, a

0:30:23.840 --> 0:30:25.960
<v Speaker 2>few years later, he asked me to do Team America

0:30:26.320 --> 0:30:28.400
<v Speaker 2>and in the same way, never came to listen to

0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:31.000
<v Speaker 2>what I was writing, didn't even come through the orchestra sessions.

0:30:31.040 --> 0:30:34.520
<v Speaker 2>He just trusted me. But then like on the third

0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:37.000
<v Speaker 2>after the third day of the recording sessions, the music

0:30:37.120 --> 0:30:40.240
<v Speaker 2>editor played him what I'd been recording and he didn't

0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:43.640
<v Speaker 2>like it. He said, oh, it's too specific to the movie.

0:30:44.200 --> 0:30:46.720
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to be like wallpaper music that they he

0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:49.440
<v Speaker 2>felt like those top Gun movies just kind of got

0:30:49.520 --> 0:30:53.160
<v Speaker 2>library music, you know, that was just being like rolled

0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:57.080
<v Speaker 2>out that it wasn't specific enough to the movie. And

0:30:57.160 --> 0:31:00.240
<v Speaker 2>so I had the most awkward meeting of my life

0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:02.920
<v Speaker 2>where they were like, we want you to start over,

0:31:03.000 --> 0:31:04.760
<v Speaker 2>but we need it in ten days. Do you think

0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:06.880
<v Speaker 2>you can do it? And not only did I not

0:31:06.920 --> 0:31:09.520
<v Speaker 2>know if I could physically do it, but emotionally I

0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:14.640
<v Speaker 2>was so devastated. I was like, if I have to, okay,

0:31:14.680 --> 0:31:17.640
<v Speaker 2>but I think I'd rather just crawl into a hole

0:31:17.760 --> 0:31:20.040
<v Speaker 2>and maybe you get someone else to do it, which

0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:23.920
<v Speaker 2>they did, which didn't make Scott Ruden very happy. And

0:31:23.960 --> 0:31:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Scott Ruden put me under house arrest and I had

0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:28.520
<v Speaker 2>to stay in my house in LA for a full

0:31:28.560 --> 0:31:32.160
<v Speaker 2>month until other people came in, wrote new music, It

0:31:32.280 --> 0:31:36.000
<v Speaker 2>got recorded in case I was needed to be brought

0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:39.560
<v Speaker 2>back in. I wasn't allowed to leave Los Angeles and

0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:42.760
<v Speaker 2>I was prisoner of the house. So that was devastating

0:31:42.840 --> 0:31:46.000
<v Speaker 2>having just had the most glorious experience with them. But

0:31:46.080 --> 0:31:49.200
<v Speaker 2>that's you know, show business. That's the a lot of

0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>the points into yeah, yeah.

0:31:51.200 --> 0:31:54.120
<v Speaker 1>Like they say you got ten days and he writes

0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:55.520
<v Speaker 1>the score one of the most legendaries.

0:31:55.840 --> 0:31:58.440
<v Speaker 2>In ten days only, I was the guy who they

0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:01.600
<v Speaker 2>fired and got. I wasn't Harry Goldsmith. He wrote it

0:32:01.640 --> 0:32:04.880
<v Speaker 2>in ten days. Yeah, maybe I could have pulled it off,

0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:08.240
<v Speaker 2>but I was just devastated and I just didn't think

0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:08.520
<v Speaker 2>I could.

0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:10.880
<v Speaker 1>Let me ask you this because I've made films, and

0:32:10.920 --> 0:32:13.480
<v Speaker 1>I made, you know, bigger studio films and starred in

0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:16.400
<v Speaker 1>those films. I haven't seen them. Well, I don't assume

0:32:16.440 --> 0:32:20.400
<v Speaker 1>that at all. But music can make such a profound

0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:22.920
<v Speaker 1>of course, what I want to go is, fellas, if

0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:25.960
<v Speaker 1>the music isn't anything cut it, Yeah, no music.

0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:29.120
<v Speaker 2>Jerry Goldsmith had a quote that he used to say

0:32:29.120 --> 0:32:32.200
<v Speaker 2>to them, Fellas, I could put makeup on the corpse,

0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:35.240
<v Speaker 2>but I can't make it breathe, you know.

0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:37.720
<v Speaker 1>Right, And don't you do you feel that sometimes people

0:32:37.720 --> 0:32:39.680
<v Speaker 1>are saying to you, I want more music here, you

0:32:39.680 --> 0:32:40.160
<v Speaker 1>know whatever?

0:32:40.400 --> 0:32:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I had all sorts of experiences like that.

0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:46.200
<v Speaker 2>But yes, you know, the music. A movie without music,

0:32:46.600 --> 0:32:50.320
<v Speaker 2>it's just it's even the greatest movies you could watch.

0:32:50.360 --> 0:32:53.959
<v Speaker 2>And if you're watch without music, there's just it's naked.

0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:57.520
<v Speaker 2>It's naked. Yeah, it's dry. And then they art is

0:32:57.560 --> 0:33:00.160
<v Speaker 2>knowing where and when not to put music and you

0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:01.040
<v Speaker 2>know how much.

0:33:01.040 --> 0:33:03.040
<v Speaker 1>Are you usually right about that? Or the director of

0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:05.400
<v Speaker 1>both with the editor. It's a collaboration.

0:33:06.040 --> 0:33:08.040
<v Speaker 2>I talk in the book about how on Sleepless in

0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:11.640
<v Speaker 2>Seattle there were two spots that I thought really should

0:33:11.720 --> 0:33:15.080
<v Speaker 2>have music, and Nora Efron was like, I don't think so,

0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:17.200
<v Speaker 2>but you know, go with your instinct and write it.

0:33:18.000 --> 0:33:20.320
<v Speaker 2>And when we went to record the music at that point,

0:33:20.400 --> 0:33:25.560
<v Speaker 2>she her personality had changed over a few weeks and

0:33:26.040 --> 0:33:27.760
<v Speaker 2>I was seeing another side of her and at the

0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:30.560
<v Speaker 2>recording sessions when I recorded those two pieces of music.

0:33:30.760 --> 0:33:34.440
<v Speaker 2>When we were finished, she said, it's very nice music. Mark.

0:33:34.920 --> 0:33:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I just wish I had somewhere in the movie to

0:33:37.120 --> 0:33:37.440
<v Speaker 2>use it.

0:33:38.720 --> 0:33:40.600
<v Speaker 1>Jonathan Demi once said to me we were shooting him, but

0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:42.480
<v Speaker 1>he goes, that's a great idea, he said, just not

0:33:42.640 --> 0:33:43.280
<v Speaker 1>for this movie.

0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well there you go.

0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:45.040
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, telemen.

0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:47.760
<v Speaker 2>So those are two spots in that movie that doesn't

0:33:47.800 --> 0:33:51.080
<v Speaker 2>have music that my agent says sometimes he teaches film

0:33:51.120 --> 0:33:54.280
<v Speaker 2>score classes and he uses those two moments to give

0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:56.160
<v Speaker 2>to the students to say, here are two moments that

0:33:56.240 --> 0:34:00.000
<v Speaker 2>really could use music, but don't have it, so write music.

0:34:00.480 --> 0:34:02.120
<v Speaker 2>There and that way when you send it off to

0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:04.160
<v Speaker 2>a producer and all they get to see a movie,

0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:07.000
<v Speaker 2>they know that, you know, they already seeing movie stars

0:34:07.000 --> 0:34:08.840
<v Speaker 2>and they're hearing music on here. So I'm very happy

0:34:08.840 --> 0:34:11.520
<v Speaker 2>for those students who are getting to write the music

0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:12.560
<v Speaker 2>that I wanted.

0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Are you someone who your proximity to the film business

0:34:17.440 --> 0:34:20.200
<v Speaker 1>and your intimate relationship with the film business on this deep,

0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:22.279
<v Speaker 1>deep level of writing this music? And then when you're

0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:24.040
<v Speaker 1>away from that, you don't watch movies, You don't watch

0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:25.920
<v Speaker 1>TV or do you watch programming?

0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:26.239
<v Speaker 2>No?

0:34:26.360 --> 0:34:28.000
<v Speaker 1>I watch what do you watch?

0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:32.000
<v Speaker 2>Well? I married an avid sports man, so now I

0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:35.480
<v Speaker 2>watch football and is an avid sportsman. What would you

0:34:35.480 --> 0:34:38.280
<v Speaker 2>call an avid sports fan?

0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Fan fan not man fan?

0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I watched sports. If my father was alive, he

0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:45.640
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't believe that when I think of when I used

0:34:45.640 --> 0:34:47.560
<v Speaker 2>to walk into the house and you'd be watching football

0:34:47.560 --> 0:34:50.520
<v Speaker 2>with his friends, and I would just quickly go into

0:34:50.520 --> 0:34:53.240
<v Speaker 2>my little room and my piano. I had no interest

0:34:53.239 --> 0:34:56.480
<v Speaker 2>in football or anything. But now I go to Knicks games.

0:34:56.640 --> 0:35:00.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he's a sports nut. Yes? What is he like everything?

0:35:00.680 --> 0:35:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Anything that involves a sphere being thrown or kicked?

0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:04.719
<v Speaker 1>Violence?

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:09.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, he loves it all. It's a real odd couple.

0:35:09.400 --> 0:35:11.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, I take one and look at him.

0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:14.160
<v Speaker 1>He's like a villain in a Bond film. This guy,

0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:17.279
<v Speaker 1>he's so good looking and so built, and I've really

0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:19.839
<v Speaker 1>learned to love it. I really do love watching it all.

0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Composer and lyricist Mark Shaman. If you're enjoying this conversation,

0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.400
<v Speaker 1>tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the

0:35:30.440 --> 0:35:35.160
<v Speaker 1>Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get

0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:39.279
<v Speaker 1>your podcasts. When we come back, Mark Shaman tells us

0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:42.520
<v Speaker 1>which of Rob Reiner's films he will always stop to

0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:45.839
<v Speaker 1>watch on TV and why it's the most meaningful of

0:35:45.880 --> 0:36:05.360
<v Speaker 1>his fourteen scores for the late director. I'm Alec Baldwin

0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:09.160
<v Speaker 1>and this is Here's the Thing. Mark Shaman has written

0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:13.360
<v Speaker 1>and arranged music for countless artists such as Mariah Carey,

0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:18.080
<v Speaker 1>Bette Midler, Harry Connock Junior, and Billy Crystal. Whether for

0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:22.920
<v Speaker 1>late night TV, award shows, concerts, or a Christmas album,

0:36:23.040 --> 0:36:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Shaman adapts to the task at hand. I was curious

0:36:27.040 --> 0:36:31.560
<v Speaker 1>as a musician what differences he found between working with actors,

0:36:31.920 --> 0:36:33.520
<v Speaker 1>singers and comedians.

0:36:34.600 --> 0:36:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the thing that makes me think of is I

0:36:36.760 --> 0:36:40.839
<v Speaker 2>did Sister act and Whoopy Goldberg, you would maybe say that, well,

0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:43.799
<v Speaker 2>you're saying about Billy, you know. And when and then

0:36:43.840 --> 0:36:45.680
<v Speaker 2>when we got together this sing it turns out she

0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:49.000
<v Speaker 2>started singing like a white folk singer.

0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:52.320
<v Speaker 1>She was singing like that. I was like, really, yus.

0:36:52.320 --> 0:36:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Not what you would expect to come out of Whoopi Goldberg.

0:36:54.840 --> 0:36:59.800
<v Speaker 2>But I put together two friends, Charlotte Crossley and Jennifer

0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:03.239
<v Speaker 2>leewe Us, who are very funny girls, who were both

0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:07.600
<v Speaker 2>harlets with Bette Midler and our gregarious, funny, great girls,

0:37:07.640 --> 0:37:10.520
<v Speaker 2>and I knew, well, I kind of figured if I

0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.640
<v Speaker 2>put them together with Whoope and we rehearse the songs

0:37:13.640 --> 0:37:17.239
<v Speaker 2>for Sister Rac with her, we'll just laugh and we'll

0:37:17.320 --> 0:37:19.400
<v Speaker 2>laugh and we'll have a good time and then she'll

0:37:19.440 --> 0:37:22.720
<v Speaker 2>just forget about being nervous about singing. And that's exactly

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:25.040
<v Speaker 2>what happened. We had a great time, and when by

0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:28.719
<v Speaker 2>the time it was time to record and film, well,

0:37:28.719 --> 0:37:30.880
<v Speaker 2>we didn't give a fuck anymore about like all the

0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:32.640
<v Speaker 2>other things that she might have been thinking of. We

0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:34.960
<v Speaker 2>were just laughing. We were just had such a good time.

0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:38.080
<v Speaker 2>And of course you've record a lot of takes, and

0:37:38.120 --> 0:37:40.200
<v Speaker 2>you take a note from track one, and you take

0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:42.319
<v Speaker 2>a note from track four. But that's a whole other thing.

0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:46.680
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, it's really a matter of yeah, coaxing sometimes,

0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:50.880
<v Speaker 2>So whoever you work without thean sonia, Ah, now.

0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:53.239
<v Speaker 1>Your first sociore and into Broadbay was what.

0:37:54.280 --> 0:37:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Well. I wanted to write Broadway shows when I was

0:37:56.480 --> 0:37:59.759
<v Speaker 2>in my twenties and but couldn't get a break. And

0:37:59.800 --> 0:38:03.600
<v Speaker 2>me my colyricist and at that time life partner Scott Whitman,

0:38:03.880 --> 0:38:06.240
<v Speaker 2>we were trying to write shows but we just couldn't

0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:08.120
<v Speaker 2>get in there. And it was the time of the

0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:13.080
<v Speaker 2>big British musicals and and then my movie career fell

0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:15.480
<v Speaker 2>on my lap and we were suddenly living in la

0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:19.239
<v Speaker 2>for a year. But then luckily, yeah, I mean I

0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:21.840
<v Speaker 2>wanted to be Broadway, and then the movies fell on

0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:25.440
<v Speaker 2>my lap, and then the entire nineties I was scoring

0:38:25.440 --> 0:38:27.560
<v Speaker 2>one movie after another. And that was the other reason

0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:29.959
<v Speaker 2>why the South Park movie was the greatest gig ever,

0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:33.440
<v Speaker 2>because not only was it onto itself the greatest gig,

0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:36.799
<v Speaker 2>it suddenly put my name back in the mouths of

0:38:36.960 --> 0:38:41.520
<v Speaker 2>the Broadway crowd. And a woman named Margot Lyon had

0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:44.960
<v Speaker 2>just gotten the rights to Hairspray, the John Waters film,

0:38:45.480 --> 0:38:47.200
<v Speaker 2>and everyone she went to the said, who do you

0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:49.520
<v Speaker 2>think should I should get to do the score for Hairspray?

0:38:49.560 --> 0:38:51.719
<v Speaker 2>And everyone had just come from the South Park movie

0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:52.640
<v Speaker 2>and said, you got to.

0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Get Mark Shaman.

0:38:53.440 --> 0:38:56.440
<v Speaker 2>You got to get Mark Shaman. So that movie led

0:38:56.520 --> 0:39:00.600
<v Speaker 2>me to the absolute dream come true, which was writing Hairspray.

0:39:01.000 --> 0:39:03.960
<v Speaker 2>And because Scott had moved to LA with me, and

0:39:04.000 --> 0:39:07.719
<v Speaker 2>I had really torn him away from the theatrical community

0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:10.640
<v Speaker 2>of New York, and I was scoring one movie after

0:39:10.680 --> 0:39:13.279
<v Speaker 2>another and Scott didn't have much to do. Scott is

0:39:13.360 --> 0:39:15.680
<v Speaker 2>quoted as saying in La he learned how to drink

0:39:15.719 --> 0:39:20.960
<v Speaker 2>and drive. Uh. So, when Margo said, you know, I

0:39:21.000 --> 0:39:23.360
<v Speaker 2>would you like to write the music for Hairspray's like yes,

0:39:23.480 --> 0:39:25.280
<v Speaker 2>And she said who would you like to write the lyrics?

0:39:25.320 --> 0:39:28.000
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, me and my partner Scott, and I

0:39:28.000 --> 0:39:30.040
<v Speaker 2>won't do it unless it's me and my partner Scott.

0:39:30.080 --> 0:39:30.840
<v Speaker 1>And they acquiesced.

0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:33.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, she said, well, I don't know you guys. As

0:39:33.360 --> 0:39:36.000
<v Speaker 2>a lyricist, I don't know. And I said, well, the

0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:39.920
<v Speaker 2>South Park movie it says additional music and lyrics, but

0:39:40.320 --> 0:39:43.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, music by was what most people have ever seen,

0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:45.800
<v Speaker 2>and she didn't, and also she was scared of it.

0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:48.279
<v Speaker 2>I think of hiring a couple, you know, like what

0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:53.319
<v Speaker 2>happens if they fight? But yeah, So luckily she said,

0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:55.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, would you write some songs on spec for

0:39:55.320 --> 0:39:58.520
<v Speaker 2>me to hear? And I was like sure, and so

0:39:58.560 --> 0:40:01.560
<v Speaker 2>Scott and I immediately started working and we The four

0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:04.520
<v Speaker 2>songs we wrote are a Good Morning Baltimore, Welcome to

0:40:04.560 --> 0:40:07.759
<v Speaker 2>the Sixties, big Blonde, and Beautiful and I Know Where

0:40:07.760 --> 0:40:10.359
<v Speaker 2>I've Been, which are still now kind of the four

0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:14.360
<v Speaker 2>tent poles of that musical, which is shows you what

0:40:14.440 --> 0:40:16.799
<v Speaker 2>a fairy tale it was in that Usually the first

0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:20.040
<v Speaker 2>songs you write for show get discarded along the way

0:40:20.080 --> 0:40:22.719
<v Speaker 2>as you start to discover what's needed. But the first

0:40:22.800 --> 0:40:26.600
<v Speaker 2>four songs we wrote are still like those strong Snakes ones. Yeah,

0:40:27.239 --> 0:40:33.000
<v Speaker 2>and then that just became just the greatest dream come true. Well,

0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:36.520
<v Speaker 2>we wrote a musical with Marty Short Marty Short, Fame

0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:39.640
<v Speaker 2>Becomes Me, which was a one man show but with

0:40:39.680 --> 0:40:44.319
<v Speaker 2>a cast, and I was on stage within and that

0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:47.480
<v Speaker 2>was a thrill, although it was tough because it was

0:40:47.520 --> 0:40:50.319
<v Speaker 2>the kind of inside baseball kind of thing about how

0:40:50.480 --> 0:40:53.879
<v Speaker 2>Broadway was full of all these one person shows, and

0:40:54.200 --> 0:40:56.560
<v Speaker 2>so Marty was spoofing the idea that he had a

0:40:56.560 --> 0:40:59.120
<v Speaker 2>one person showing him for all the trials and tribulations

0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:01.160
<v Speaker 2>of his life, because he's the happiest man on earth,

0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:03.600
<v Speaker 2>so it's not really true. And then catch Me if

0:41:03.640 --> 0:41:05.920
<v Speaker 2>you Can was the next one Scott and I did,

0:41:06.400 --> 0:41:07.480
<v Speaker 2>which you know.

0:41:07.600 --> 0:41:09.719
<v Speaker 1>Was based on the film Yeah who Comes Ringing Your

0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:11.480
<v Speaker 1>doorbit of Spielberg ring the bell or.

0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Something, and that in this case, Scott and I we

0:41:14.760 --> 0:41:17.560
<v Speaker 2>went to the drama bookstore to get a copy of

0:41:17.600 --> 0:41:20.239
<v Speaker 2>Stage Door. Someone had asked us this if we would

0:41:20.280 --> 0:41:22.719
<v Speaker 2>be interested in writing musical stage Door, which is the

0:41:22.760 --> 0:41:26.799
<v Speaker 2>old Katherine Heppern movie The Catada Lizar and Bloom. I

0:41:26.840 --> 0:41:29.359
<v Speaker 2>hope all your readers and listeners will now you now

0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:32.960
<v Speaker 2>did as far as I'm coogle stage Door and you

0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:35.120
<v Speaker 2>just can do anything. So so we went to get

0:41:35.120 --> 0:41:37.960
<v Speaker 2>that play, but there was a coffee table book out

0:41:38.280 --> 0:41:41.440
<v Speaker 2>elsewhere in the drama bookstore of Catch Me if you Can,

0:41:41.560 --> 0:41:44.080
<v Speaker 2>about the making of it. And Scott looked at that

0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:48.000
<v Speaker 2>and the pictures of pan Am stewardesses and Leonardo DiCaprio

0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:51.879
<v Speaker 2>and all the different disguises, and he said, I'd rather

0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:55.440
<v Speaker 2>write a musical of that. And because I knew Steven

0:41:55.480 --> 0:42:00.799
<v Speaker 2>Spieople only through Marty short Christmas parties. One year, he

0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:05.680
<v Speaker 2>brought his clarinet and I played hanakkah ohonnakah while him

0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:09.280
<v Speaker 2>and Cape capp Shaw he played the clarinet and she danced.

0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:11.960
<v Speaker 2>So I felt like I had worked with him. So

0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:15.080
<v Speaker 2>I asked Marty to give me like a phone number

0:42:15.239 --> 0:42:19.000
<v Speaker 2>or email or whatever, and I just wrote Steven Spierberg directly.

0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:20.840
<v Speaker 2>I said, we have this idea to do a musical

0:42:20.840 --> 0:42:23.960
<v Speaker 2>of Castrini if you can. So I completely didn't go

0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:26.600
<v Speaker 2>through agents or lawyers. I just went straight to the

0:42:26.640 --> 0:42:30.520
<v Speaker 2>man and we got the rights. And how did that go?

0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:34.400
<v Speaker 2>It didn't have a long run. It gets done all

0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:36.560
<v Speaker 2>the time now and I go to see it. We

0:42:36.640 --> 0:42:39.400
<v Speaker 2>had this idea that it was Frank Junior was putting

0:42:39.400 --> 0:42:41.960
<v Speaker 2>on his life as if it was a television variety

0:42:42.000 --> 0:42:44.480
<v Speaker 2>show from like nineteen sixty four, which was still the

0:42:44.520 --> 0:42:48.400
<v Speaker 2>peak time of like Show Business on TV where Sinatra

0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:51.520
<v Speaker 2>and Judy Garland, where it wasn't cheesy yet it wasn't

0:42:51.560 --> 0:42:55.400
<v Speaker 2>like you know the bad seventies, you know Brady Bunch

0:42:55.640 --> 0:42:59.480
<v Speaker 2>variety kind of shows. But we couldn't transplant it on stage.

0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:02.040
<v Speaker 2>We never quite figured it out with our collaborators. So

0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:06.560
<v Speaker 2>we all adore, but we just didn't quite this flay

0:43:06.640 --> 0:43:09.400
<v Speaker 2>didn't completely rise. I mean, I'm very proud of the score.

0:43:09.440 --> 0:43:11.560
<v Speaker 2>I love it very much, and it gets done all

0:43:11.600 --> 0:43:13.200
<v Speaker 2>the time now, and I do go to see it,

0:43:13.560 --> 0:43:15.520
<v Speaker 2>Scott says. When we go to see it, sometimes it's

0:43:15.560 --> 0:43:18.759
<v Speaker 2>like a football coach bringing us into the locker room

0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:21.160
<v Speaker 2>after the game and showing us footage of the game

0:43:21.320 --> 0:43:24.040
<v Speaker 2>with a laser point, or going that's where you went wrong.

0:43:24.160 --> 0:43:25.640
<v Speaker 2>If we got a chance to do it again, I

0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:27.799
<v Speaker 2>think I would know how to like fix it, make

0:43:27.840 --> 0:43:30.480
<v Speaker 2>it or even better. But it's still good. Who directed

0:43:30.920 --> 0:43:32.120
<v Speaker 2>Jack O'Brien right.

0:43:32.360 --> 0:43:35.759
<v Speaker 1>But the question also is what I'm told I don't

0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:38.080
<v Speaker 1>know this is intimately maybe as you do. But my friends,

0:43:38.120 --> 0:43:40.080
<v Speaker 1>I think said to somebody said to me that there's

0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:43.960
<v Speaker 1>only four new musicals on Broadbay this year. What's you know,

0:43:44.040 --> 0:43:46.759
<v Speaker 1>whither the Broadway Musical the New Broadway Musical, because they're

0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:48.440
<v Speaker 1>going to have four in that every show that's on

0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:51.040
<v Speaker 1>is going to get nominated. They got four slots.

0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:54.320
<v Speaker 2>If only I had because we did some like it

0:43:54.440 --> 0:43:57.839
<v Speaker 2>hot it was three years ago and we were just

0:43:57.880 --> 0:44:00.720
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning of coming out of COVID and although

0:44:00.760 --> 0:44:03.319
<v Speaker 2>we smelled like a hit, everyone thought we were this

0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:05.480
<v Speaker 2>big hit and we ran for a year, but it

0:44:05.480 --> 0:44:07.200
<v Speaker 2>should have run for years and years and years.

0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:11.120
<v Speaker 1>But it's so expensive. Now, yeah, that's your critique of

0:44:11.120 --> 0:44:12.759
<v Speaker 1>because I would ask you, what's your critique of brought

0:44:12.840 --> 0:44:13.120
<v Speaker 1>right now?

0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:15.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, the last two shows I've done, people were really

0:44:15.760 --> 0:44:19.799
<v Speaker 2>enjoying them, but we couldn't make enough money to pay

0:44:19.920 --> 0:44:23.560
<v Speaker 2>what it cost the weekly. The money is just the

0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:24.640
<v Speaker 2>math as.

0:44:24.600 --> 0:44:26.600
<v Speaker 1>I wonder why they can't find a way to bring

0:44:26.600 --> 0:44:26.960
<v Speaker 1>that down.

0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:28.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, And it's only going to keep getting

0:44:28.520 --> 0:44:30.600
<v Speaker 2>worse because if you talk to the actors or the

0:44:30.600 --> 0:44:33.560
<v Speaker 2>stage crew, they're like, you know, and the orchestra, and

0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:36.080
<v Speaker 2>they're like, yeah, you understand why they're fighting for what

0:44:36.520 --> 0:44:40.040
<v Speaker 2>they want in the next deal. But somehow it's just

0:44:40.040 --> 0:44:42.960
<v Speaker 2>just blown up out of proportion that there is no

0:44:43.160 --> 0:44:46.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of middle. You know, if you look at classic musicals,

0:44:46.440 --> 0:44:48.240
<v Speaker 2>they only ran for like a year and a half,

0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:49.800
<v Speaker 2>like The Music Man or whatever.

0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:51.800
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't like now where.

0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:53.680
<v Speaker 2>They have to if they don't run for ten years,

0:44:53.719 --> 0:44:54.920
<v Speaker 2>it's considered a flop.

0:44:55.560 --> 0:44:56.320
<v Speaker 1>Everyone's chasing it.

0:44:56.480 --> 0:45:00.600
<v Speaker 2>It's just impossible. So not many get to grabbed that

0:45:00.760 --> 0:45:03.560
<v Speaker 2>brass ring the way that you could back in the day.

0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:06.600
<v Speaker 1>Who are people out there that you admire? Alfred Newman,

0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:10.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, John Williams, any contemporaries. I mean, who's somebody

0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:13.320
<v Speaker 1>now that you like? You think there's work is good.

0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:15.880
<v Speaker 2>There's a great guy. The last time I was nominated

0:45:15.920 --> 0:45:18.680
<v Speaker 2>for an Oscar, I lost to Ludwig Gorenson for what

0:45:19.360 --> 0:45:21.560
<v Speaker 2>he had written for Black Panther, and I had written

0:45:21.560 --> 0:45:24.320
<v Speaker 2>for Mary Poppins' Returns, and I kind of thought maybe.

0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:25.800
<v Speaker 1>Black Panther, Mary Poppins.

0:45:25.960 --> 0:45:27.680
<v Speaker 2>I thought, you know, it was my, it was my.

0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:30.960
<v Speaker 2>It was my seventh nomination. I thought this might be

0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:34.839
<v Speaker 2>like my Susan Lucci moment. But Ludwig one. But he's

0:45:34.880 --> 0:45:38.240
<v Speaker 2>a sweet guy and he's brilliant. He just did Sinners

0:45:37.960 --> 0:45:40.760
<v Speaker 2>he so he's someone I very much admire. And he's

0:45:40.880 --> 0:45:44.480
<v Speaker 2>also so sweet and so nice and just such a

0:45:44.520 --> 0:45:45.000
<v Speaker 2>great guy.

0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:47.400
<v Speaker 1>So there were pieces in the classical repertoire that I

0:45:47.440 --> 0:45:51.320
<v Speaker 1>just weep. Saw Organ Symphony, whatever, there's the alot of

0:45:51.400 --> 0:45:55.520
<v Speaker 1>thing a Dvoreshoch, New World whatever. I'm a classical nut

0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:59.239
<v Speaker 1>are the pieces you've written or the pieces you've been

0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:02.560
<v Speaker 1>involved the movies and scenes with the picture in the

0:46:02.600 --> 0:46:05.040
<v Speaker 1>move music match which brings you to tears like they're

0:46:05.080 --> 0:46:06.040
<v Speaker 1>really powerful to you.

0:46:06.239 --> 0:46:08.839
<v Speaker 2>The one that and obviously now more than ever is

0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:13.480
<v Speaker 2>the American President with Rob Reiner, and god knows, because

0:46:13.480 --> 0:46:17.680
<v Speaker 2>of what's happened in America, all these things converge to

0:46:17.800 --> 0:46:19.759
<v Speaker 2>make that piece of music. I got to write for

0:46:19.800 --> 0:46:28.120
<v Speaker 2>that movie very very meaningful to me, and I'll.

0:46:25.920 --> 0:46:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Try not to start weeping, but.

0:46:29.360 --> 0:46:31.840
<v Speaker 2>It was a beautiful movie and I got to write

0:46:32.000 --> 0:46:35.399
<v Speaker 2>music that was just full of the respect that one

0:46:35.840 --> 0:46:41.440
<v Speaker 2>used to have for the American President. Yeah, exactly, And

0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:45.560
<v Speaker 2>it works so well. And it's one movie of mine

0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:48.080
<v Speaker 2>that I could if I channel hop up across it,

0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:49.440
<v Speaker 2>I'll stick with it.

0:46:49.560 --> 0:46:51.360
<v Speaker 1>Michael Douglas was phenomenally phenomena.

0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:54.760
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, So the music for that one is meaningful

0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:57.799
<v Speaker 2>to me on so many levels. So and I did

0:46:57.920 --> 0:46:59.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, I did a concert last year and see

0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:03.080
<v Speaker 2>and Diego and I'm at the piano and kibbitzing with

0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:05.279
<v Speaker 2>the audience. But for that one piece, I did get

0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:07.839
<v Speaker 2>up and conduct the orchestra, which is a very hard thing.

0:47:07.880 --> 0:47:11.839
<v Speaker 2>To do conducting an orchestra and making them go at

0:47:11.840 --> 0:47:15.200
<v Speaker 2>the speed that you want. That's a real talent that

0:47:15.320 --> 0:47:17.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't really have because I'm in a companist. So

0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:21.719
<v Speaker 2>I let them lead, which you can't do because suddenly

0:47:21.840 --> 0:47:25.239
<v Speaker 2>it gets much slower. But I was conducting it to

0:47:25.719 --> 0:47:28.440
<v Speaker 2>the film the main title, so I had to keep

0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:32.040
<v Speaker 2>them going. And now, of course, I mean, I'm lucky

0:47:32.080 --> 0:47:34.759
<v Speaker 2>that I had this moment with Rob in a Sedona.

0:47:35.239 --> 0:47:38.840
<v Speaker 2>There's a Sedona Film Festival and I was an honoree

0:47:38.840 --> 0:47:41.080
<v Speaker 2>one night, and Rob was the honoree the next night.

0:47:41.960 --> 0:47:45.480
<v Speaker 2>And for the Rob night, they showed this beautiful pristine

0:47:45.960 --> 0:47:48.080
<v Speaker 2>print of the American President, which I had seen on

0:47:48.160 --> 0:47:50.840
<v Speaker 2>TV a lot, but I'd never seen it up on

0:47:50.880 --> 0:47:54.480
<v Speaker 2>the screen again. It had been maybe twenty years. So

0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:56.879
<v Speaker 2>I just watched this beautiful movie and got to hear

0:47:56.920 --> 0:47:58.920
<v Speaker 2>this music. I got to write for it, and it

0:47:58.960 --> 0:48:04.360
<v Speaker 2>was so grateful to Rob Reiner for everything, and especially

0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:08.799
<v Speaker 2>this movie and especially what it's about and what had

0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:13.680
<v Speaker 2>just started happening with Trump, and it just all bubbled up.

0:48:13.719 --> 0:48:15.880
<v Speaker 2>And so my job was to then go to the

0:48:15.920 --> 0:48:18.800
<v Speaker 2>mic and introduce Rob. The audience knew me from the

0:48:18.880 --> 0:48:21.840
<v Speaker 2>night before, and it was my job to introduce Rob,

0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:24.120
<v Speaker 2>and I was, you know, I had a whole bunch

0:48:24.120 --> 0:48:26.560
<v Speaker 2>of jokes. I was going to crack. And I got

0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:30.719
<v Speaker 2>up there at the mic and just started sobbing, just

0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:34.640
<v Speaker 2>absolute couldn't get a word out, just stamping my feet.

0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:38.000
<v Speaker 2>All I tried to say was I'm so grateful to

0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:41.799
<v Speaker 2>Rob Reiner and and so the tears had to just

0:48:41.960 --> 0:48:43.200
<v Speaker 2>completely speak for me.

0:48:50.040 --> 0:48:54.040
<v Speaker 1>My thanks to composer Mark Shanmon. I'll leave you with

0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:58.640
<v Speaker 1>a piece of Shaman's score from Rob Reiner's The American President.

0:48:59.320 --> 0:49:01.839
<v Speaker 1>I'm alec One. Here's the thing that's brought to you

0:49:01.840 --> 0:50:33.160
<v Speaker 1>by iHeart Radio.