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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is

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Speaker 1: somebody who's both a remarkable historical figure but also very

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Speaker 1: much active and in the present. Her birth name was

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Speaker 1: Carolyn Adams, but she's much better known for the last

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Speaker 1: fifty years or so as Mountain Girl or MG Mountain

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Speaker 1: Girl Garcia, you know, the woman who was part of

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Speaker 1: the Married Pranksters, was a partner and co parent with

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Speaker 1: Ken Kiss of the Mary Pranksters and Jerry Garcia the

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Speaker 1: Grateful Dead, and has continued to play a role in

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Speaker 1: this world really over the last fifty years or so. So, MG,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me on Psychoactive. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: you're welcome. It's it's nice to be here on this

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Speaker 1: foggy day in Oregon. You grew up, right, It was

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Speaker 1: at Poughkeepsie, New York, and then moved out west and

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Speaker 1: you're about eighteen or so, that's correct. Yeah, I was

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Speaker 1: an upstate New York kid, went to school there and

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Speaker 1: you know, eventually got kicked out how that goes. And

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Speaker 1: then I went to California with my brother. Were you

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Speaker 1: doing drugs in high school before even went to California

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Speaker 1: or was it when you talked to California AJ teen

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Speaker 1: that you started, uh doing all that stuff? Now? I

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Speaker 1: was just I was just a prankster in high school.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's a prankster? Always a prankster? So I

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Speaker 1: was pulling pranks and they got onto me and and

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Speaker 1: got mad at me. But but no, I didn't discover

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Speaker 1: the choice of ingestible substances until I was a little

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Speaker 1: bit older and had been working. And the job that

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Speaker 1: I got out in California was a very unusual job.

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Speaker 1: Based on my ability to read and write about science.

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Speaker 1: I was hired by Stanford University to come and work

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Speaker 1: in the mass spectrometer lab at Stanford University's Organic Chemistry building,

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Speaker 1: which was a very unusual job for an eighteen year

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Speaker 1: old kid. Yeah, no kidding, right, eighteen years old working

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Speaker 1: in the lab at Stanford without any kind of college

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Speaker 1: education or yeah. Just I was so smart though, because

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Speaker 1: I had read all this. I had read everything. You know.

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Speaker 1: My parents were scientists, so I was good on science.

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Speaker 1: So when they interviewed me, I I apparently aced the

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Speaker 1: interview and it aid really well, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: one of those jobs, you know, for an eighteen year

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Speaker 1: old getting a job like that was really great. But

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Speaker 1: I was on the night shift, which was kind of

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Speaker 1: weird because I had to ride my bicycle around through

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Speaker 1: Powell also after dark a lot. And and you were

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Speaker 1: talking nineteen sixty four, huh is that right? Yeah, sixty four,

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Speaker 1: It seems like so long ago. Now, Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: it is a big change. I mean, to come from

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Speaker 1: from an East coast in a prep school like I did,

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Speaker 1: and to just jump into a community on the other

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Speaker 1: side of the country was pretty interesting. But I really

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Speaker 1: liked it. I thought I thought it was beautiful. I

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Speaker 1: thought California was just heaven. So you're in the lab

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Speaker 1: at Stanford, hanging out there at night, and I imagine

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Speaker 1: you get your hands on some of the psychedelic drugs

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Speaker 1: that are lying around Stanford in those days. Is that right? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. And no. I was actually asked to process

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Speaker 1: a sample that was labeled very cautious with this sample,

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Speaker 1: and I ran into trouble with it. I had trouble

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Speaker 1: with the mass spectrometer that night and wound up with

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Speaker 1: a half used sample. And I'm sitting there with this

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Speaker 1: sample and me and it's you know, eleven o'clock at night,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to m hmmm, Okay, you know there's

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Speaker 1: still more in the in the little jar. I'll just

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Speaker 1: eat this one and see what happens. You know, because

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Speaker 1: I've been reading, I've been reading about psychedelics and gotten

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Speaker 1: really interested because, of course, even as a young person,

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Speaker 1: I was a scientist. I was raised by scientists, and

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Speaker 1: my science mind just looked at the stories about psychedelics

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Speaker 1: and said, I want to know what this is. So

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Speaker 1: I realized there was only one way to know, and

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Speaker 1: that was to partake. But in your case, if I

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Speaker 1: read this quickly, it was an LSD. Was it began,

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Speaker 1: Actually it was. It was the only people I know

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Speaker 1: who was introduced to all of this you know through

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Speaker 1: I gain LSD your mushrooms or something like that. That

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Speaker 1: must have been a challenging experience. Well, it was very challenging.

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Speaker 1: Getting home was really hard on the bicycle, you know,

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Speaker 1: at like four in the morning, I had to ride

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Speaker 1: my bike backed across town and that was like a

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Speaker 1: mystery tourycle trip. It does. Yeah, I had to like

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Speaker 1: re remember everything all the time, re remember, re remember,

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Speaker 1: re remember this corner that corner, like. But I made

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Speaker 1: it back and by the time I got there, I

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Speaker 1: was pretty messed up. So I had to like lie

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Speaker 1: down and go to sleep or try to go to

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Speaker 1: sleep for a long time. And I don't remember it

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Speaker 1: being any fun. I remember it being an ordeal because

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Speaker 1: it was an unrefined sample of a e boga from

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Speaker 1: West Africa, so it was just a little blob of

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Speaker 1: green good and I mean a small blob. It was,

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty small little blob and uh yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it just it really messed me up, frankly, and I

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Speaker 1: take it the job at Stanford did not last much

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Speaker 1: longer there, you know, the problem being that it it

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Speaker 1: messed with my mind in a very overt way. I

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Speaker 1: can't recommend it. I really can't and uh, this is

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Speaker 1: not this was not a good idea on my part,

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Speaker 1: although heck, what can I say now? Yeah it's a

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Speaker 1: bad idea. How much there after was it that you're

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Speaker 1: like hanging out in some cafe or something in Palo

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Speaker 1: Alto and get picked up by Neil Cassidy. That was

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Speaker 1: like about a month later. And for our listeners, just

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Speaker 1: you know who don't know Neil Cassidy is he was

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Speaker 1: a key figure in the in the Beach generation. You know,

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Speaker 1: somebody hooked up with Jack Carroll act and in fact

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Speaker 1: the basis of the character Demoyarty in On the Road,

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Speaker 1: which was basically the key character and on the Road

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Speaker 1: but also friendly with William Burrows and and Alan Ginsburg

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Speaker 1: and all those And now he meets you in this

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Speaker 1: cafe and Palo alter you're all of what eighteen years old? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: What happens? Then? Well, it's late at night and I'm

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Speaker 1: my boyfriend who I had been staying with his his

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Speaker 1: mom had come and gotten him that day and taken

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Speaker 1: all of his stuff out of the house, and suddenly

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Speaker 1: he was gone and like completely gone, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: have a place to be, so I thought I'd just

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Speaker 1: pedal on over to St. Michael's and get a cup

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Speaker 1: of coffee and think things over. And I'm sitting there

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Speaker 1: with my big cup of coffee and in walks Neil

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Speaker 1: Cassidy and his sidekick Bradley, and they sit down at

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Speaker 1: the table right next to me, and there, look, there's

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Speaker 1: nobody else in the place. Meanwhile, the guy serving the coffee,

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Speaker 1: who is kind of a famously annoying fellow, turns out

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Speaker 1: to be Bob Hunter. In later years I found out

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Speaker 1: that that was actually Bob Hunter who wrote the songs

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Speaker 1: for the Grateful Tet. Oh, he's the key were and

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Speaker 1: he was the guy behind the counter at St. Michael's

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Speaker 1: alley that night. So, um, that's a tidbit I didn't

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Speaker 1: pick up from all the reading I was doing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's so amazing to me that this happened. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: so these two guys say, hey, you know, we're trying

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Speaker 1: to score some Benny's. You want to want to go

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Speaker 1: out with us and try to score some Benny's? And

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Speaker 1: I'm going Benny's. Okay, yeah, right, okay, Ben Citrine and

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Speaker 1: these guys look good. I said okay. Because I had

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Speaker 1: nothing else to do, I said, okay, let's go. And

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Speaker 1: we drove around all night, visiting all of Neil Cassidy's

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Speaker 1: friends houses around Palo Alto and up up in the mountain,

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Speaker 1: the San Bruno Mountains, and failed to score even a

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Speaker 1: single Betty, to his great dismay, because he had just

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Speaker 1: come back from the famous bus trip, which I knew

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Speaker 1: nothing about. I knew nothing about these people. And he

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Speaker 1: winds up. We go all the way down the hill

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Speaker 1: on the far side of San Bruno Mountain towards the coast,

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Speaker 1: and he pulls in. He had to take the car back.

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Speaker 1: He was driving ken Casey's car. So I wound up

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Speaker 1: in ken Casey's parking lot wait at four in the morning,

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Speaker 1: and that was okay. So now we got to back

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Speaker 1: up for audience for a second, because some people know

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Speaker 1: exactly who he is. But let's fill in this history, right.

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Speaker 1: So Ken Kesey was the person who first became famous

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Speaker 1: for writing One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest, and it

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Speaker 1: immediately catapults him into the you know, the echelons of

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Speaker 1: the great up and coming American writers, and then becomes

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Speaker 1: the movie with Jack Nicholson and all this sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: And so Ken KSI. Some years before you had your

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Speaker 1: I began experience is doing you know, LSD as part

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Speaker 1: of the MK ultra Cia experiments to investigate the potential

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Speaker 1: uses of LSD for military and intelligence purposes, and gets

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Speaker 1: into LSD in the early sixties, starts using it, then

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Speaker 1: begins to create a group called the Mary Pranksters, and

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Speaker 1: then has this trip across the country to New York

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four to go see the World's Fair

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Speaker 1: and do other things like that that ultimately becomes famous

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Speaker 1: when Tom Wolfe, the novelist and non nonfiction writer as well, writes, uh,

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Speaker 1: the Electric kool Aid asset test. So this is you know,

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Speaker 1: Ken KISSI has taken this bus trip in sixty four.

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Speaker 1: He's got this growing gang of people with him. LST

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Speaker 1: is very much part of their world. Now we're in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five and you show up at his door, right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so take it away. Just to clarify, Yeah, the reason

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Speaker 1: Neil was out looking for Benny's was because they had

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Speaker 1: just come back from the famous bus trip. In other words,

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Speaker 1: they had only been back in the Bay Area for

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Speaker 1: a few hours when I met Neil, and he had

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Speaker 1: borrowed Kent's car to go look for look for some

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Speaker 1: benditry and it couldn't find it. Had to bring the

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Speaker 1: car back because it was time for Ken's kids to

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Speaker 1: go to the first day of school that they were having.

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Speaker 1: So I'm standing around in the parking lot and nobody's

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Speaker 1: up yet. It's really quiet. Neil is wandering around somewhere

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Speaker 1: and Ken comes out and I meet him and we

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Speaker 1: make a nice contact, you know, and uh, suddenly the

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Speaker 1: car's gone, and I realized, oh, I'm here, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm stuck here. So Neil wanted to get back to

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Speaker 1: go to work, so he hitchhiked away. And I got

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Speaker 1: to meet Ken and Faye that very morning. So this

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Speaker 1: was Mrs Kesey and and and their kids and their dogs,

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Speaker 1: and they had docsins who came out and bit me

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Speaker 1: on the ankle. But it was, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: so sweet. There was so sweet to me. But what

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Speaker 1: I really got to see was the bus itself, which

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Speaker 1: was standing sitting there in the yard. Is huge old

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Speaker 1: school bus, you know, with the low ceiling that you

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Speaker 1: have to duck and you have to like walk along

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Speaker 1: with your head down because you're too tall for the bus.

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Speaker 1: And it's just completely painted and decorated all over with

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Speaker 1: stuff glued to it. And I mean, honest to God,

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Speaker 1: I wrote the bus when I was a kid to

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Speaker 1: school every day and back and I was a bus monitor,

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Speaker 1: and to look at this bus was like such such

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Speaker 1: a radical twist on the concept of transportation. I was

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Speaker 1: completely knocked out by it. So I had to like

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Speaker 1: look at it for a long current on the top

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Speaker 1: or something. So yeah, on the top of you blast

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Speaker 1: out music or even or even magnify the sounds that

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Speaker 1: were from outside the bus and all this sort of.

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Speaker 1: It had speakers up top, and then there was a

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Speaker 1: they had built an area to what you'd think they'd

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Speaker 1: put luggage up there in a big luggage truck, but

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Speaker 1: actually there was mattress, two mattresses up there, and you

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Speaker 1: could lie down as the bus was going down the road,

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Speaker 1: which was really pleasant. And they cut a hole in

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Speaker 1: the roof for a turret so they could close it

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Speaker 1: up if it was raining, but you could climb in

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Speaker 1: and out on a ladder and get up on the roof.

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Speaker 1: So I'm looking at this thing, right, it's just getting light,

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Speaker 1: and I could see it, and I'm looking at it

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Speaker 1: and I'm walking around it going Holy moly, because it

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Speaker 1: was just covered with globs of paint and pictures and

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Speaker 1: you know, it was like a total art project. And

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Speaker 1: I come around to the front door, and the front

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Speaker 1: door is kind of hanging off the side of the bus,

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Speaker 1: you know, the little door you walk through to climb

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Speaker 1: up into the bus to go to school. And it

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Speaker 1: says on the top of the door says, nothing lasts.

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Speaker 1: And I just burst out laughing. I thought that was

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Speaker 1: the funniest thing I ever see. Oh yeah, nothing less.

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Speaker 1: And that was like their motto, you know, for the

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Speaker 1: for the Hall Prankster Enterprise, nothing less and the bush

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Speaker 1: further further f you r t h you are, which

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Speaker 1: is a little different from for with an e er

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Speaker 1: further is more of a sense of putting things in motion,

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Speaker 1: but you know, giving giving reality a shove of some sort.

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Speaker 1: You know. So you then what do you actually start

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Speaker 1: living up there? Then? Fairly soon at this in La Honda,

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Speaker 1: I think outside of Palo Alto. Yeah, so there was

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Speaker 1: a beach, you know, like ten minutes away, and it

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Speaker 1: was a beautiful redwood trees, like it's just huge redwood

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Speaker 1: trees out in the yard. I was fascinated, and these

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Speaker 1: were such nice people, you know, they were all just

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Speaker 1: as nice as they could be. And when I finally

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Speaker 1: met all the rest of the pranksters, I realized that

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Speaker 1: not only was I safe with these people because they

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Speaker 1: weren't going to attack me or whatever, you know, that

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Speaker 1: I was really a lot like them, you know, I

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Speaker 1: looked at things from a different point of view, and

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Speaker 1: so did they, and we we bonded, you know, within

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks, there was a pretty strong bond

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Speaker 1: getting set up. So here I'm just going to quote

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Speaker 1: two passages MG from Tom Wolves Electric Kool Aid Acid Test,

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Speaker 1: and the one and the one is page fourteen where

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Speaker 1: he first introduces you as a character, and he says,

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Speaker 1: Mounted Girl is a tall girl, big and beautiful, with

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Speaker 1: dark brown hair falling down to her shoulders, except that

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Speaker 1: the lower two thirds of her falling hair looked like

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Speaker 1: a paintbrush dipped in cadmium yellow from where she dyed

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Speaker 1: at blonde in Mexico. And then pages later, Mounted Girl

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Speaker 1: was a big hit with the pranksters from the very start.

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Speaker 1: She seemed always completely out front without the slightest prompting.

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Speaker 1: She was one big, loud charge of vitality. Here comes

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Speaker 1: mounted girl, And it was the thing that made you

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Speaker 1: pick up as soon as you saw her mouth broadened

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Speaker 1: into a grin and her big brown eyes open, open, open,

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Speaker 1: until they practically exploded like sunspots in front of your eyes.

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Speaker 1: And you knew that wonderful country vide voice was gonna

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Speaker 1: sing out something that was a nice description by Tom Wolf.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he liked me, he did. Yeah. Did you think

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Speaker 1: of him? Oh? He was okay, I mean he he

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Speaker 1: interviewed me extensively and then wrote his own version of

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Speaker 1: what I said. Right, But I thought he was somebody

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Speaker 1: who lived in a in a greenhouse on the top

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Speaker 1: roof of a New York skyscraper. You know. He seemed

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Speaker 1: somehow not to know very much about anything. He had

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Speaker 1: grown up in a vacuum of some sort. You know

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Speaker 1: that he just he was an open invitation to tell

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Speaker 1: him stuff, you know, But he didn't ever give you

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Speaker 1: anything back, you know what I mean. It was all input.

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Speaker 1: He had very little output except just kind of as

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Speaker 1: a nice guy. And I and the Mary Pranksters had

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Speaker 1: become quite well known, like in the Bay are in

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Speaker 1: the West Coast, but would probably never achieved the fame

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Speaker 1: they had nationally, but for Tom Wolves writing about it

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Speaker 1: an electrical aid asset test. I mean, to the extent

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Speaker 1: that fame served the interests of the pranksters, Wolf was

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Speaker 1: great for them, and to the extent of the pranksters

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Speaker 1: provided material for Wolf to become, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: nationally highly regarded all writer. It worked out in that regard,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in observing his writing, you know, and

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Speaker 1: reading it years later, I'm going like, Wow, this guy

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Speaker 1: was a really gifted writer, and he honestly didn't know

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Speaker 1: what he was writing about. Really, you know, he refused

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Speaker 1: to get high. He didn't want to sully his magical brain,

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Speaker 1: which I have great respect for him because he managed

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Speaker 1: to get the job done and he did a great

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Speaker 1: job with it. It's still a really fun read. So

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Speaker 1: let me see, there's another quote that I found. You

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Speaker 1: said somewhere. You said about the Pranksters. They didn't know

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Speaker 1: they were starting the sixties, obviously, but they knew they

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Speaker 1: had a big secret and they were going to exploit

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Speaker 1: it to the full, that's right. And what was the secret?

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Speaker 1: The secret was LSD that Ken had copped from the

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Speaker 1: mental health place where he was working at Stanford at

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Speaker 1: some point earlier in the year. But then then it

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Speaker 1: kind of came on the underground market in the early sixties,

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Speaker 1: it began to leak out and he managed to find some.

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Speaker 1: So we had we had LSD that came from Sandos,

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Speaker 1: from the Swiss chemists, and that was what Ken had

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Speaker 1: picked up in Palo Alto, which is a very clean

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Speaker 1: and beautiful high actually, and people should know, until late

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Speaker 1: nineteen six is LSD actually become illegally get scarce because

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Speaker 1: Sandos the pharmaceutic companies in handing it out the way

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Speaker 1: they did in late fifties early sixties. But you know,

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Speaker 1: people could not get busted for it at that point,

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Speaker 1: right it was unknown. It was an unknown drug, and

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Speaker 1: if you could keep your behavior under control when you

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Speaker 1: were high, you can get away with it, of course,

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Speaker 1: but it does it does have a tendency to change

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Speaker 1: people's behavior. And you know, you'd say so. Plus we

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Speaker 1: were clueless about dosage at that time, you know, we

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Speaker 1: were we were experimenting. So basically, some LSD would go

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Speaker 1: into a big picture of kool aid and you drink

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Speaker 1: some of it. So how much LSD did you have?

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Speaker 1: You had some, but I mean for all you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about, you know, a hundred

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Speaker 1: micrograms being a kind of fair not light does it's

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Speaker 1: a real If you think about that's just okay, solid dose.

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Speaker 1: But if you think about two D fifty or more

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Speaker 1: being what you might call a heroic dose, but you're

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Speaker 1: drinking it in kool aid, I mean, you have no

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Speaker 1: idea if you're getting fifty micrograms or five micrograms. I

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Speaker 1: guess the flight of faith faith is a strong, a

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Speaker 1: strong contender forgetting it in and out of trouble. But

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, I feel like I did take too

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Speaker 1: much one time, but I just went and gotten my

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Speaker 1: sleeping bag and stayed there, And which is the best

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Speaker 1: thing you can do if you've had a had a

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Speaker 1: little bit too much. And were the other drugs I mean,

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00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,720
Speaker 1: was mescaline and psilocybin. Mushrooms also a big part of

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Speaker 1: your life. Not so much those days, no, because they

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Speaker 1: were rare. These were things. By the way, are you

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Speaker 1: still are you still doing it this year? I haven't

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Speaker 1: taken any this year, but I usually take it three

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Speaker 1: or four times a year. Mh. So listen, let's go

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Speaker 1: back to the pranksters for a second. Here, now, which

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Speaker 1: is that, you know, I'm reading about them, and I'm

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Speaker 1: recognizing a lot of the names, and I was just

356
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,479
Speaker 1: real off a few. And then there was Stewart Brand

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Speaker 1: who then comes up with a Whole Earth catalog, which

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00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 1: is a major phenomenous seventies. There's Jim Fattiman, who has

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Speaker 1: now become sort of the godfather of micro dosing. Robert

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Speaker 1: Stone who shows up, who's the novelist who wrote Dog Soldiers,

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Speaker 1: a kind of award winning book about drug dealing during

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam War days that became the movie Whole Stop

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Speaker 1: the Rain. Larry McMurtry, who also famous novelists, right sixty novels,

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Speaker 1: including Lonesome Dove, one of the most famous, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of novelized series on TV. Paul Krasner, founder of

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Speaker 1: the Yippies, and of course Neil Cassidy. So you're hanging

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Speaker 1: out with this remarkable cast of character. So so I mean,

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Speaker 1: just tell us about, you know, who is your favorites

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Speaker 1: among this group. I think my favorite among that group

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Speaker 1: was Alan Ginsburg. So Ginsburg was a special friend of

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Speaker 1: Neil Cassidy's, and he came out and stayed for like

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Speaker 1: a week and a half at Ken's and I just

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Speaker 1: thought he was absolutely charming, interesting guy. So for our audience,

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Speaker 1: so that you don't know, Alan Ginsburg is one of

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Speaker 1: the most famous American poets of the of the second

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Speaker 1: half of the twentieth century, and he's a e pivotal

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Speaker 1: to the Beats generation. Of course I'd heard about him

378
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Speaker 1: before he got there. But but what a lovely guy

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Speaker 1: Ginsburg was. He was just he was the sweetest fellow,

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Speaker 1: just delightful and kind and Jewish, which is important, you know.

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Speaker 1: That categorizes him to me as as somebody with a

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Speaker 1: with a good intellect and a grasp on who he

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Speaker 1: is and what he's doing. And I thought he was

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Speaker 1: the only Jewish guy in the in the Beats generation,

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Speaker 1: among the prominent ones. I say, is that right, Well,

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00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: he think so, because Carol A. Cassidy a bunch of Catholics,

387
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Speaker 1: you know, So it's yeah. So Ginsburg was a revelation

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Speaker 1: to me because he was he was somebody gifted with

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Speaker 1: a lot of pace and calm. He had calmness and

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00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 1: patience that just flowed out of him. I had never

391
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,439
Speaker 1: read his poetry before, being clueless, and I read this

392
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,359
Speaker 1: stuff and I'm going, Wow, this is kind of interesting,

393
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,879
Speaker 1: but I don't really understand it. I had cognition problems

394
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Speaker 1: with some of the stuff these guys were doing because

395
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Speaker 1: I had not I had not lived their lives, you know,

396
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: I had not lived in their shadow either, so I

397
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about them. But I found them all

398
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 1: really interesting and fun to get along with. And Neil

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00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: was Neil Cassidy was the connector here. He was the

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00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 1: spark that brought all these people together and brought them

401
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 1: out to California. And we had a number of very

402
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 1: lovely gatherings featuring Ginsburg and his friends, and it was

403
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: just it was a whole literary experience that was never

404
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:58,200
Speaker 1: expecting and and very exciting. We'll be talking more after

405
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: we hear this ad, so m I gotta as see

406
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: these things. It's very much a guy's world, right. All

407
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,879
Speaker 1: the famous characters are almost all of them are guys.

408
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: You're probably the most famous of the women who are

409
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,479
Speaker 1: associated with it. But obviously with the pranksters, there's a

410
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: lot of people different. You know, people sleeping not just

411
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: with their wives and husbands and all sorts of people.

412
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: And you get pregnant at what the age of eighteen,

413
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: He's baby but meanwhile you're hanging out with him and

414
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: his wife, Faye and their three kids. So just explain

415
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 1: a little bit more about what was that, you know,

416
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: the community like then, and also to what ways did

417
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: LST shape the nature of that community. Well, I think

418
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: one of the ways l shapes a community like this

419
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: is that a trust is a big issue. So we

420
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: learned to trust each other other and to recognize what

421
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: the boundaries are of what what we were doing, which

422
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: was basically becoming like a family, but not really a family.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's like the beginning of of living together

424
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: in a non familiar situation where you're you're just good friends.

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Speaker 1: And I think that just good friends describes the whole thing.

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00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: We were good friends. We worked on projects together, it

427
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 1: was fun, you know it. We cooked and ate together,

428
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: and to me it felt it felt like family. But

429
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: it was different from my my natal family because these

430
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: people were as weird as I was, or weirder. And

431
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: I was learning from Ken all the time about writing,

432
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: about reading. He would hand me stuff to read, he

433
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: would hand me some of his writing to edit. He

434
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: actually got me to edit a couple of things. And

435
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: I was already somebody really interested in writing, so I

436
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: was fascinated by his process, and then I the poets.

437
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: The poets started coming in with their writing. So it

438
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: was an enormous learning opportunity for me about how to

439
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: manage words and how to manage your expressions to you know,

440
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: properly fill in the blanks about what it is you're

441
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: trying to say. You know, how to color it up basically,

442
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: how to make it resonate. And I think I picked

443
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: up some of that. Let me read another passage from

444
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: Tom Wolfe and tell me if he got it right

445
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: or not. Okay, he was. I doubt if any of

446
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: the pranksters truly understood Mounting Girl, except for Casey. Most

447
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 1: of the time, when she was so one out front,

448
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: coming on loud and clear and candid as a mack truck.

449
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: It never occurred to anybody the whole side of her

450
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: was hidden except for Kessy. As I say, sometimes Kessy

451
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: and mount and Girl would disappear into the backhouse and

452
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: lion mattresses and just talk Kesy rapping on about how

453
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: he felt about all sorts of things like fate. Nobody

454
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: was closer to Kessys, Amount and Girl, not even Faye

455
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: off and seeing but there it was Kesey. Kesey was

456
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 1: essential to Mount and Girl's whole life with the pranksters.

457
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: Did you get that right part of it from you? Yeah,

458
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: I would say it was pretty right. I was interested

459
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: in Ken. You know, he was a writer. I wanted

460
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: to be a writer. You know. I kept finding his

461
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 1: notes scattered around on the floor and stuff like that.

462
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: And I would find this stuff and look at it,

463
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, his notes to self. You know, he he

464
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: kept a lot of records of what his thoughts were.

465
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: He would just right, he would just kept his hand

466
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: moving a lot. And I realized pretty soon that that

467
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: was the key to being a writer, was you write

468
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: shipped down right, You keep keep notes, you constantly be

469
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: leaving the trail for yourself. Because nobody can remember that

470
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 1: great thought that you had five minutes ago. You have

471
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: to write it down, you know it really do. And

472
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,160
Speaker 1: so I I think I picked up something from him.

473
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: But I was really interested in this process. I didn't

474
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: really get to see him right very much. He would

475
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 1: write at four in the morning, you know, on his

476
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: little typewriter, So I didn't really engage with him on

477
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: that level. But by that time I had become friends

478
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: with the keysies and baby sat for them a little

479
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: bit and generally tried to make myself useful because I

480
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: thought this was the most interesting couple I had ever met.

481
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: And so did you and Fain not have to deal

482
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: with significant issues of jealousy or stuff like that when

483
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: you know, you get pregnant with her, you know, her husband.

484
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I was understand you stayed friends for decades thereafter,

485
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: so obviously you made things work. But what was that

486
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: like at that point? Well, it was uncomfortable for both

487
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: of us. But but if these things happen and you

488
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: don't really mean for them to happen, however, that the

489
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 1: results were good, so that complaints. You know, I have

490
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: a beautiful daughter named Sunshine who is now in her fifties.

491
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,159
Speaker 1: For crying out loud, So the water onto the bridge

492
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: has flowed into the ocean long ago, and Face is

493
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: close by here in Eugene and loves to see in

494
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: our grandkids and the family and stuff. So we're you know,

495
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: we still see each other occasionally, but it's just you know,

496
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: we're we're getting old, you know what I'm saying. We'll

497
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: get that. We'll get to that at the end of

498
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: this At this conversation, tell tell us a little bit

499
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: about the acid tests. I mean, these become famous gatherings,

500
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: and then there's the big Trips festival, and it seems

501
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: like a lot of the creative juices that can KISSI

502
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: and the pranksters are doing at that point involves putting

503
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: on these festivals, and you're integral to these things. So

504
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: what was the thinking behind that. Was it about introducing

505
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: the broader San Francisco or Caligarnian communities to to LSD.

506
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: I think that's actually you're quite accurate there. That was

507
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: the point. The point was to get more people who

508
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: were smart enough to have read about it an opportunity

509
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: to try it in a in a situation where there

510
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: were other people around. I think one of the worst

511
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 1: things people can do is take psychedelics by themselves if

512
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: they've never had any before. This is not something you

513
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: want to mess around with fires. You want to be

514
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: with experienced people who can can walk you through some

515
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: of the tricky parts of exploring your your other brain.

516
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: You know that other brain you got that you don't use.

517
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: I feel like he he already understood all that stuff.

518
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: Ken already understood the mechanics of getting high and what

519
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: was going to happen to people, and he could lay

520
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: it out for you in a good way and keep

521
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: you out of the dark places. He was very good

522
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: at that. And that meant music, that meant you know,

523
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: friendly banter, that meant reading comic books, you know, various

524
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: things that would propel the lighter side of life rather

525
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: than the darker side. And that was a prankster ethic,

526
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: and that was something that he taught and encouraged and

527
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: kept it going, you know. That was his His ethic was, Yes,

528
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: it's important information, but we want it to be at

529
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: least moderately entertaining, you know, so that at the same time, right,

530
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: the prankster model was ever trust to prankster. Yeah, that

531
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: was his thing. I never quite got that because I wasstworthy.

532
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: Yeah that was Yeah. I didn't invent that one. I

533
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: don't know where they got off with. I think it

534
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: was part of the the jokes on you concept that

535
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: Ken liked. You know, he was an amateur magician among

536
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: other things, and could do sleight of hands and he

537
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: has a very interesting skills that he had worked on

538
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 1: since his youth, and a lot of it had to

539
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: do with with tricking people and so LSD was tricky too,

540
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: and I think one of the reasons he liked it

541
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: so much was that it had that prankster equality to it,

542
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, where you get kind of silly and funny

543
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: and get outside yourself of your day to day self.

544
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: You come outside of yourself and play. So in order

545
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: to rediscover play, you know, that was something he really

546
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: liked to do. And the Ascetists were basically these multi

547
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: media events. Then it was sound and poetry and reading

548
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: and everything whatever it is. It was whatever it is

549
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: we could pull together. And what was it called acid tests?

550
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: That was Ken's idea. That was an old term, you know,

551
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: it was an old farmers term. I'm not sure it

552
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: had to do with charging batteries or something like that,

553
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 1: that you would have to put acid in the old

554
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: tractor battery and you have to test the test the

555
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know where that came from,

556
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: but anyway, that's what got used. And we called them

557
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: acid tests, which I thought was pretty out there, but

558
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: it worked and people came and people drank the kool aid,

559
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: and we didn't put very much in at first, you know,

560
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: it just was. It wasn't till later that that other

561
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: helpers showed up and clandestinely would add more to the

562
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: kool aid, which was not fair of them, but that

563
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: did happen. Um. So the first couple were very mild

564
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: in nature. They were easily done. People had a good time.

565
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: That music was played. We had a couple of different

566
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: bands that played. Uh there was Mother mccree's Uptown Jug Champions,

567
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: which was the early Grateful Dead before they were a

568
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: Great Dead. And then there was a couple of skiffle

569
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: bands and uh proto bands that became became better known later.

570
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: But these were nice parties, you know, where we looked

571
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: after people. We made sure people didn't get lost on

572
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: the way to the parking lot. You know, it was

573
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: a little bit of hand holding from the folks that

574
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: were doing the parties. And um, the whole point was

575
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: to introduce people to a rather weak solution of LSD

576
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: in these jugs of kool a and so they wouldn't

577
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: get they wouldn't get overloaded. But that turned out to

578
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: be super fun. You know, that was just very lively

579
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: fun and we realized, oh, this is gonna work now.

580
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: One thing that Kissy and that you've shared in common

581
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: was the fact of the illegality. I mean, some of

582
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: this LSD was in yet illegal, but marijuana was illegal

583
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: and sometimes punishable by quite serious things, seriously, and he

584
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: gets busted twice and I think you're there for one

585
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: of them offered take the fall for the thing. So

586
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: was it like dealing with the cops in the mid sixties, Well,

587
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: they were. They really had a wonderful time chasing us around.

588
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: I mean they they worked at it, and they had

589
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: an informant on the ground there too that we didn't

590
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: know about until later. So we we were being very,

591
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: very cautious because we had gotten the message from the

592
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: Cosmos that this was happening, that we were being investigated,

593
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: and so we hid absolutely everything and you got it

594
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: off the property before the cops came. But somehow one

595
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: little stash au got found that nobody knew about, and

596
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: it was some suspicion that it had been planted, but

597
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: we couldn't prove anything. So they marched us all off

598
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: to the San Mateo County jail for a little visit,

599
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: but it didn't really amount too much. Ken obviously took

600
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,479
Speaker 1: the hit because he was the one that got fined.

601
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: You know, every time he would get some whopping fine

602
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: that he'd have to pay, and it really impoverished the

603
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: Keisies because they had to pay for our fun and

604
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: it wasn't fair. Just you know, they were the they

605
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: owned the property, and it was it was just the

606
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: way things were. And the cops used to park an

607
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: empty cop car out front, you know, on the weekends,

608
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: just to give us something to worry about. So it

609
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: was it was uncomfortable. We all wanted to get out

610
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: of the discomfort zone. And uh that was part of

611
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: the reason that the bus left and why Ken had

612
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: to leave that property because the San Mateo County sheriffs

613
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: were hot for him. They wanted to arrest him, and

614
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: he lands up spending some time in jail, right, Yeah,

615
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 1: he did. He did some months. Uh, I think he

616
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: did about seven months, and fleeing in Mexico for a while. Yeah,

617
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: and the bus and all this thing, this one out

618
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: to New York but to Line or something, and yeah,

619
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: we went down to actually all the way down to

620
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: us at Line and then we decided that wasn't far

621
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: enough away and we went on to Manzanillo, which is

622
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: less of a tourist town at that time and moreover

623
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: just a residential fishing town, and we found a little

624
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: place to live on the beach there and with not

625
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: quite finished house that we rented, and for six months,

626
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of us lived there and uh, just

627
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: definitely evaded anymore interactions with the police. But at the

628
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: same time, I'm sure we were being watched pretty closely

629
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: by the locals, and we had a nice vacation on

630
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 1: the beach. I loved it there. It was so nice,

631
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: and the Mexicans were just great with us. They thought

632
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 1: we were cool. They knew we were cool in fact,

633
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: and so they treated us really well. They liked us,

634
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: so you know when you come back. I mean, so

635
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: we're getting into sixty seven or someple And then there's

636
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: two ways we could take this. I mean, one is

637
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: obviously the hippie scene. I mean, the way in which

638
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: the pranksters are described as the link between the Beats

639
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: and the hippies. As you get the Summer of Love,

640
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: you get hate Ashbury, you get that stuff. Becoming this

641
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: incredibly dynamic cultural cultural countercultural community I think is kind

642
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: of out of hand in a way. And then the

643
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: other part, which I think I'm more interested in pursuing

644
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: you right here, is about the Grateful Dead. And you know,

645
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: here's these young musicians, Jerry Garcia and a band called

646
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: the Warlocks at that time. And I think, you know,

647
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: hanging out with the pranksters, and you fall in and

648
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: connect with Jerry Garcia. And at this point, well, you

649
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 1: have a young baby, you're only what twenty one or so. Yeah,

650
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 1: let's let's start back at the beginning of that thought.

651
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: So Keisy invited this rock band that he'd heard about

652
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: to come down and play at one of his last

653
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: parties there at La Honda. And so these guys come

654
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: in and it's it's the band. It's the band that

655
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: we now know and love. It's it's Jerry and Phil

656
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 1: and Bob and pig Pen. And we're looking at these guys.

657
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: I've never seen them before, and uh, I'm looking at

658
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: these guys and I thought, Wow, what a scurling, scurvy

659
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: bunch of rats. You know, they just they just look

660
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: like But they played great. So they lined up in

661
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: Ken's living room and you know, without any p A

662
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: or any of that kind of stuff. We did have

663
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: a couple of little microphones that kind of worked. But

664
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: they played for hours and had a wonderful time they

665
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 1: partook of the tea, the special tea being being served there,

666
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: and they had, as it turned out, they had all

667
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: fiddled around with LSD already in Palo Alto, and uh,

668
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: we're knew what they were doing, and we're very solid customers,

669
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: we thought, very solid, very likable. And so when when

670
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: Ken came up with the brilliant idea of doing acid tests,

671
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: which we all giggled at, they were the ones we

672
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: called and and they said, sure, we'll play. I don't

673
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: think we even had to pay them very much. They

674
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: just wanted to play. Is he conceivable to you that

675
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: they could have become who they were if they had

676
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: never encountered the pranksters? No, I don't think they would have.

677
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,479
Speaker 1: I don't think they would have. I think they would

678
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,959
Speaker 1: have gone their own ways. This cemented them. This brought

679
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: everybody together in that very personal high way you know,

680
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: where you're You're connecting with your brothers and sisters in

681
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: this mental realm of LSD in a whole new way.

682
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: It makes things weld, even meld and then weld together.

683
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: And I think that welded the grateful dead um and

684
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: made them much more of who they were. But you

685
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: gotta remember Bob Weir was like fourteen during all of this,

686
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: you know, he was fourteen or fifteen years old, and uh,

687
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: I remember going up to the Peninsula school where he

688
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: was in high school and picking him up for a

689
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: show one time. He was like, I think, fifteen years

690
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: old at the time, but he could play and sing

691
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: and he was good. So these were all developmental, developmental

692
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: steps that we were taking trying to get to the

693
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: point where we could do an asset test and have

694
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: it really be good and fun. So uh that they

695
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 1: were an essential piece of the action. We needed that music,

696
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: We needed the the pressure of the music to keep

697
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: people up and not wandering off, and that really really worked.

698
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,760
Speaker 1: And they would play these sometimes very abbreviated sets, depending

699
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: on their level of inebriation, but usually it worked out

700
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: and they would play these long, rambling tunes and they

701
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: would just get longer and longer, like you know, violently

702
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: blues could go for half an hour and they'd get

703
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: so spaced out. But we loved them. They were wonderful.

704
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 1: They were so game, they were ready for whatever we disstout.

705
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: They seemed to be able to absorb and work with,

706
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: which was impressive, really it took them a little while

707
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: to trust each other enough that they could just that

708
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: they could just zoom out to the outer universe that

709
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: way and and stay there for a while with each other,

710
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: and it didn't seem to hurt the show at all.

711
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: In fact, the audience loved it. So, you know, they

712
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: got good feedback from taking those excursions, taking stuff outside

713
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: the menu of songs that they had laid out for themselves.

714
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: Because they always worked with a set list. You know,

715
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: they'd write the set list and they take it to

716
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: the mics, and everybody knew what changes they had to

717
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: do to get into the next two. But sometimes, you know,

718
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: once they had given themselves permission to extemporize, they would

719
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: just riff and wander out into outer space, which was

720
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: heavenly God. They got great. They got huge applause for this.

721
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: You know, this is the stuff that people really really

722
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: wanted to do. They wanted to let go of the

723
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: format and just wander in space with music. It was delicious.

724
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: I read this question is no one ever came close

725
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: to Jerry Garcia in terms of manifesting the LSD experience. Well,

726
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: I think that's a nice quote. Whether that's true or not.

727
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: I don't know that was in that person's experience probably,

728
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: but Jerry took LSD often without realizing it when he

729
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: got dosed, often at shows and stuff like that, so

730
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 1: he he really probably had more of than he wanted often,

731
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: But he managed to perform through that because there was

732
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: a lot of this going on in those days. Or

733
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: somebody would hand you something it and say, you know,

734
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: try this, and I'm like, what, Well, what is it?

735
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: After you've tried it, then you ask what it is.

736
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,280
Speaker 1: But anyway, he seemed to be able to still find

737
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: the right finger positions to play the music, although he

738
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 1: said sometimes it was really really hard, especially if he

739
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: couldn't see the neck of his guitar because it was

740
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: too dark and he was too high, he would have trouble.

741
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 1: But mostly his ear was so good that he could

742
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: he could keep going through all that, and he would

743
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 1: just play until his hands just swelled up like crazy.

744
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: He would play for hour when he was high, and

745
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: the band would just keep going and keep going and

746
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: keep going. And there's the other band members were presumably

747
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: sometimes high as well. Oh yeah, definitely, what goes around

748
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: comes around, as they say, So I know that Bill

749
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: the drummer used to just get completely wiped out. He

750
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: would be he would be a basket case, play for

751
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: four hours straight without a break. You know they would

752
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: do that. They were our heroes, you know. They made

753
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: they made the foundation hold together for the asset tests

754
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: like nobody else could. Let's take a break here and

755
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 1: go to an ad. Okay, so here you are, your

756
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: with a young baby, UM with kN Casey, and you

757
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: and Jerry fall in love and stay together for six

758
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: or seven years or something like that and have a

759
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: couple of kids. Yeah, what can you share about because

760
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't come up as much in the interview. You're

761
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: talking about you you guys falling in love? Oh about that?

762
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: So when we came back from Mexico, UM, I didn't

763
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: have any place to go except to move in with

764
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 1: my brother Gordon, who was living in an apartment in

765
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: San Francisco. I didn't have any options. Really, I with

766
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: a baby. There was no way I was going back

767
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: down into the woods at Ken's. I couldn't do that.

768
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 1: It wasn't practical. It's too hard to find services and stuff.

769
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: So my brother said, well, you can stay with me,

770
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 1: and so that worked out, but it also made me

771
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: available to go over and visit at Grateful Dead house

772
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 1: on Ashbury Street, which I promptly did. We were very

773
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: familiar with each other. Really, I love the band. I

774
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: love those guys so much. They were such cool people.

775
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: So I trotted right on over to their house at

776
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: seven ten Ashbury Street and made myself known, and and

777
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: and Jerry just latched on and and was driving me

778
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: all around town with a couple of his friends. Within

779
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks, we were exploring the possibilities of

780
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,280
Speaker 1: being a couple. And uh, within a couple of months

781
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: he asked me to come and move in with him

782
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: over at and I did, and then realized that a

783
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: lot of that had to do with cooking dinner. They

784
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: needed more people to to to feed them. And that

785
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: was fun. But he's essentially your first long term boyfriend. Absolutely. Yeah.

786
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: I was too weird for most people. You know. I

787
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 1: was just too smart, too crazy. I had a kid,

788
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I had a lot of I had a

789
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: lot of strikes against me as far as being a

790
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 1: domestic partner. But once I had Sunshine, I had to

791
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: sort of like change my wild ways and let go

792
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: of my motorcycle and you know, become a mom and

793
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: he was comfortable with that, which was really sweet, and

794
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: he took us in and we had a great time together.

795
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: We really really did. And it was to him it

796
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 1: was I guess important. And he becomes more the dead

797
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 1: to your daughter's sunshine than even Ken is, oh much more. Yeah,

798
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: because he was hands on, because we lived together and

799
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: ken Ken was living elsewhere by that time. He had

800
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: to get out of California and he moves back up

801
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: to Oregon eventually. Yeah, he had to get out of

802
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: California because the cops were mad at him for ever

803
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: more things. So I'm sort of like, you know, prepping

804
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: for this, and I'm thinking, you know, there's a few

805
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: things that Ken Kesey and Jerry Garcia had in common

806
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: apart from the commitment to LSD, But they were also

807
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: obviously creative geniuses, each in their own way. But beyond that,

808
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: and maybe more uniquely, they were both leaders and teachers

809
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: who had a commitment to not being perceived as the

810
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: leader and others who were kind of anti Even as

811
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: you had to have some hierarchy to function, they saw

812
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 1: themselves as being anti hierarchical, and I think Kessy called

813
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: himself the anti navigator and Garcia. He's obviously such a

814
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: teacher for his other bandmates, but there's an element in

815
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: which he doesn't want to assert that power or role

816
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: or doesn't want that focus on himself. And so what

817
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: they did was they assigned pig Pen the role of

818
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: the leader of the bands, which he didn't want that

819
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: role at all, so he was very grumpy about it.

820
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 1: But it was just a matter of being singled out

821
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: as the person who could talk really well, which Jerry could.

822
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,760
Speaker 1: I mean, he always had something to say about anything,

823
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 1: and I think most of the rest of the band

824
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: members were a little bit less inclined to kick out statements,

825
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: you know, and kick out words. Jerry was was really

826
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: good at that. And because he played the guitar and

827
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: he did a lot of the singing, he was seen

828
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: as body who needed to be interviewed frequently. Oh, the

829
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: interviewers would just make a bee line for Cherry and

830
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: he'd have to say, I'll talk to you, but but

831
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: I don't have time for anybody else. And that was

832
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: all he could do, really, And how much are you

833
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: going out on the road with him? I mean, obviously

834
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: you're having a couple of kids with him, so you've

835
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: got three young girls. Eventually after a few years and

836
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: he's coming home periodically. But how much are you out

837
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: going to concerts on the road, whether without the kids

838
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: or well? I did. I did many times. I went

839
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: out lots of times until I kind of got tired

840
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: of it. It's a grind, let's face it, you know,

841
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: you it's motels, it's taxis, it's airplanes, and it's just like,

842
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: you know, if you're not the performer, if you're not

843
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: the performing person and don't have a role on stage,

844
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: it's difficult. It's difficult to go out on the road

845
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 1: if you don't have a job. Okay, so I didn't

846
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: have a job. I just didn't really like being out

847
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: there because I didn't have anything to do. I just

848
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 1: kind of they'd be doing a sound check and I'd

849
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: be wandering around, you know, banging into doors and stuff

850
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,720
Speaker 1: with with no role. So that that wore me down

851
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 1: pretty quick. But I just think that they worked so hard,

852
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: and I can't really tell you how hard they worked,

853
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: but it was really hard to get their sound right,

854
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 1: to get their instruments working right. You know, all this

855
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: stuff was like crucial in that four or five hours

856
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: before a show, and you just didn't even want to

857
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: be around them during that period. You know, they were

858
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: focused on what they were going to do, so it

859
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 1: was difficult to just lounge around and watch them struggle

860
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: with all that stuff. So I didn't really like like

861
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: going out that much. And you'd have the girls with

862
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: you as well at a very young age. Yeah, I

863
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:51,879
Speaker 1: tried not to do that. That was just too much

864
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: to deal with. You gotta remember, they were standing in

865
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,359
Speaker 1: motels and funky hotels. You know. It took a long

866
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,479
Speaker 1: time for them to reach an income level that would

867
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: yield a more comfortable trip, so it was pretty bare

868
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: bones that first ten years. Meanwhile, I just got to

869
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 1: ask you this, So back at home in Poughkeepsie, what

870
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: do your parents think about what you're up to this

871
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 1: whole time with the Preisters and the dead and Keithsi

872
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: and Garcia, And what's their take on and how's your

873
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: relationship with him during these years? Because they seemed like

874
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: they were great parents growing up. They were very good parents,

875
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 1: and I got a great education from them and with them,

876
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: but they did not approve of anything that I did

877
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: after I was a certain age, so it was difficult

878
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,240
Speaker 1: to visit them and bathe and disapproval, so I didn't.

879
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: I didn't visit them very much until I was about

880
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: thirty and could bring home my kids and let them

881
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 1: see that I actually was a mother that had nice children.

882
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: You know. That seemed to work better for them than

883
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: the than the crazy lady that that I was when

884
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: I was nineteen, you know, so they liked me better

885
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: that Okay, So another question. You get to a point

886
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 1: then around seventy three seventy four, and I guess a

887
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 1: couple of things happened then. One is I think that's

888
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: the point more or less when you and Jerry split up.

889
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 1: I mean, he's still showing up as as the father

890
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: of kids and all this, and then meanwhile you start

891
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: to see cocaine and heroin and other drugs much becoming

892
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: much more part of the grateful dead scene and Jerry

893
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: getting into using those drugs. What was going on to

894
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 1: take Jerry first and foremost, because he was the fact

895
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,439
Speaker 1: of the leader. Why did he get so much into

896
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: cocaine and then get into heroin in a way that

897
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: he struggled with for you know, the rest of his

898
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 1: life to one degree or another. Well, I can't answer

899
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: that because I don't really know I think he thought

900
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 1: cocaine made him play better or longer, or which was

901
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 1: really not true either. You know, you know how coke is.

902
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: It makes you think you're better than you are. And

903
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: I can't I can't speak to the heroine thing because

904
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 1: because I don't really know, except that he would get

905
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: really tired. He would get really tired and need to

906
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: sleep and not be able to sleep. And somehow Heroin

907
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: worked into that. But he didn't overtly use in my

908
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 1: presence because he knew my attitude towards that stuff. So

909
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: he was secretive as he got into it, you know,

910
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: as he became addicted, he became very secretive. But it

911
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 1: was also obvious that something was terribly wrong because his

912
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: behavior changed. But how he got into it and and why,

913
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: I think it's the dangers of the road. You know,

914
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: people are handing you stuff. You go out there and

915
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: people are hand you, handing you a beautifully rolled joint,

916
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: they're handing you a little pile of coke, you know.

917
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: And I just happened to be that person that didn't

918
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: like cocaine at all and I thought it was weird

919
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: and rather have a benny. Now I can relate on

920
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: the same way more, or rather take a benny as

921
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: anybody got a benny. You know, benz Atrien was much

922
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,319
Speaker 1: better as far as I was concerned. But you know,

923
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: there it was, and it was going around. It was

924
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 1: the cool thing to give to the rock stars, I guess,

925
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: and because I didn't go out on the road with

926
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 1: him every time, I went out once in a while.

927
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 1: But this was all going on where I couldn't see it,

928
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: and I didn't really know about it until until I

929
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: started hearing about it from people, because cocaine was not

930
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: overt behavior changer, you know, it's subtle. It's a subtle drug,

931
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 1: and I couldn't I couldn't read it in the room.

932
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: I couldn't feel its presence, you know. So it was

933
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: something that I struggled with for a while and realized

934
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: that no matter what happened or whatever drugs Jerry took,

935
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: I still loved him. That didn't change the situation. It

936
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: just meant that he was different, you know, he was

937
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: different in his behavior and his actions, and he was

938
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: also at risk. So I electured him about the risk

939
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 1: and he didn't take that will but I kept I tried,

940
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 1: but it just you know, he was already doing what

941
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: he did. This a little more forward that maybe a

942
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,840
Speaker 1: lot more, which is that when part of this is

943
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: about your reflections now looking back. But the first thing

944
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 1: I want to ask you, So, there was an interview

945
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: in one of the came across, maybe from late nineties

946
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: or something, and maybe this is one of your daughters

947
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 1: and let me just read you here. You kids should

948
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: do drugs. Jerry Garcia used to tell the Sensible Daughters quote.

949
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: It was sort of a running family jokes at Annibal

950
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,439
Speaker 1: Garcia McLean then twenty six, one of four daughters of

951
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: of Jerry Garcia. She said her mother would also say,

952
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: why can't you kids be more like us? We tell

953
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,399
Speaker 1: her mom, no, we don't want to. We learned from

954
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: you guys by don Annabelle is a jokester. She's a

955
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: prankster through and through. That is just that's her entire creation.

956
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: She she would come up with stuff like that just

957
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: to make us squirk, you know, just to make me squirre.

958
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: Michael like, no, come on, really, so so very funny

959
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: ha ha Okay, okay, so let me frame it this

960
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: way now now and the psychedelic renaissance we're in and

961
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: Michael Pollen's book and the tremendous influence of maps and

962
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: all the wonderful media attention. Everybody's very focused on harm reduction,

963
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,919
Speaker 1: whether it's in a dance scene or whatever it might be,

964
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 1: and and doing it all right. And I think whereas

965
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 1: our parents were afraid that we would do things that

966
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 1: they had never done, I think our generation is oftentimes

967
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 1: afraid that our kids will do the same dumb things

968
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 1: we did do but they won't be so lucky. That's

969
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 1: entirely possible, yes, because you know, think of the variety

970
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: of substances out there now well exactly, but also think

971
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 1: about when you were taking you know, LSD of unknown

972
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: potency or purity back in the day, or like the

973
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: whole notion of taking LSD, like with stroll lights out

974
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: in a concert. Like I tell my daughter and her

975
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 1: friends that, you know, if they're gonna do stuff, don't

976
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: do it at a concert, do it in a more

977
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: safer environment or with friends you trust, not where you're

978
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: surrounded by thousands of strangers and don't know where the

979
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,839
Speaker 1: exits are and all this sort of stuff. But back

980
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: in the day, you were part of a scene. In fact,

981
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: the acid tests were all about taking acid and being

982
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: this crazy multi media environment, taking some unknown amount of

983
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 1: acid in an unknown amount of you know, kool aid.

984
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: I mean, when you look now from the kind of

985
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: responsible harm reduction frame of the psychedelic renaissance back on

986
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: that day, what do you think. Well, I think we

987
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 1: were taking a big risk, you know, with the but luckily,

988
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 1: you know, nobody died, nobody jumped out a window. We did.

989
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: We did okay, because we kept the concentration pretty freaking

990
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 1: low in those those buckets of kool aid. It was

991
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,240
Speaker 1: it was low dose all the way. Now, some people

992
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,840
Speaker 1: would bring their own stash to the thing and re

993
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: up the kool aid. Other people would just use their

994
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: own stash and not touch the kool aid. So it

995
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 1: was really a free choice affair. And we felt that

996
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 1: this was this was something that was an American right

997
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,399
Speaker 1: to get a little high and and adjust your own dose.

998
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: If you drink one cup, you're gonna get you're gonna

999
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 1: get fifty mics. If you drink too you're gonna get

1000
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 1: an hundred, you know, so be ready for that. And

1001
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of about where we were at

1002
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: with it was about thirty microgams for a for a

1003
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: full Dixie cup of cool. You know, it was low dos,

1004
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: but as the evening progressed, of course people would come

1005
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: back and get a little more. So it was cumulative.

1006
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 1: And so it's hard to it's hard to figure how

1007
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 1: everybody survived the asset tests without a single catastrophic event.

1008
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: You know, we didn't ever have anything bad happened, so

1009
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: it was it. There was no reason to stop. In

1010
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: other words, no disaster appeared on the horizon. Let me

1011
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: ask you this. So you got called made, whether it's

1012
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:52,360
Speaker 1: a grandkid or a friends kid or somebody and they're

1013
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 1: you know, they're late teens or early twenties and they're

1014
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: going to their first they're going to burning Man for

1015
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: the first time, going to something that resembles them okay test,

1016
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: they're saying, Hey, MG, like I'm going you know, I've

1017
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: tried it a few times. But what's your advice to

1018
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,680
Speaker 1: me and going into this environment where I definitely want

1019
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: to be tripping, but I also want to come home. Fine. Yeah,

1020
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: I think the first advice is go with a friends

1021
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 1: who you trust and care about and that cares about you.

1022
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: That's number one. Number two is, you know, make sure

1023
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: your shoes are and shoes and socks are in good order.

1024
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: And number three is take a low dose. If you're

1025
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: gonna be offered something, to go for the low dose

1026
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: because you could always take more later, you know. But

1027
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: it's really really good to be safe by going low

1028
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: and feeling, you know, people get people will grow their

1029
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: wings bit by bit. You don't have to go for

1030
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: the whole thing all at once, because that puts you

1031
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: in harm's way. And because you need to learn how

1032
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: to fly. You need to learn how to take off

1033
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: and fly safely before you take the big flight you

1034
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: really do. You need to check it out delicately. Be

1035
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: sweet to yourself. I think it's about how do you

1036
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: treat yourself? Be sweet to yourself and and go low.

1037
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: That's what I say to people. Yeah, that sounds like

1038
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 1: good advice. But another thing you did right. You created

1039
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: something with some friends called the Women's Visionary Concoct a

1040
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: number of years ago. In fact, I think one last

1041
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: time I saw you was closing Paths at one of

1042
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: those events, which even though is the Women's Visionary Congressmen

1043
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: who are welcome to calm, But what was the vision

1044
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: behind that and what is uh, you know, the mission

1045
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: of it and the importance of it. Well, my my

1046
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: two friends Anne Harrison and Hidden Mountain were instigators of

1047
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: this and they approached me as a as a co conspirator,

1048
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: and I thought such a wonderful idea. So they were

1049
00:58:55,040 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 1: basically women's gatherings that involved discussions around psychedelics and about

1050
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: alternative lifestyles, about thinking about alternative lifestyles besides just the

1051
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: American style of high school, college, grad school, job you

1052
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: know that that that that that uh in a in

1053
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: a in a quick series as so it was really

1054
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: aimed at younger women that wanted to experiment a little

1055
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: bit with with some psychedelics in a safe setting, with

1056
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:30,959
Speaker 1: carrying people around, and that was what it was really

1057
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: all about. Most people that came to those were mostly

1058
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: in it just for the discussion, So the discussions were

1059
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: deep and varied. You know, women's circle is a very

1060
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: revealing thing to do. To set up a women's circle,

1061
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: you don't know who you're going to get, you don't

1062
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: know what their stories are going to be, but you

1063
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: find out an awful lot about about what women's issues are,

1064
00:59:54,120 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, and they revolve around parenting, lifestyle and consciousness razing.

1065
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: So we tried to be mentors I think the whole

1066
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: idea was to be mentors for younger women that were

1067
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: we're seeking a safe path to enlightenment of a type

1068
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: of enlightenment, you know, about life. Yeah, you're making me

1069
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: think of a friend of mine who may be a

1070
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 1: friend of yours as well, who I think has organized

1071
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: years ago a grandmother's circle to get together for a

1072
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: number of days doing different psychedelics. That's a lovely idea, Yes,

1073
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, so as women, as

1074
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,240
Speaker 1: as people that have babies and are bringing along the

1075
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: next set of humans. You know, there's a special role there,

1076
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: not just for grandmothers, but for for mothers and daughters

1077
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:50,560
Speaker 1: to perpetuate what women know and some women need to learn,

1078
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 1: and that those things can be shared in a women's

1079
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 1: circle setting in a really good manner, you know, a clear,

1080
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 1: clean manner without interference or interruption or or dogma. You know,

1081
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 1: we're trying to like get the dogma out of the discussions,

1082
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 1: you know, trying not to hang on to old ideas.

1083
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: Let's just look at this clearly from a scientific point

1084
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 1: of view and a social consciousness point of view, and

1085
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 1: that seems to work in general, It really does, and

1086
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: young women were really grateful. And also it's a hook up.

1087
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 1: It's a place to meet people you can hang with

1088
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 1: and go get high with, you know. So these are

1089
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: these are valuable, valuable things, and I haven't been involved

1090
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: in in a couple of years, but I would like

1091
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,479
Speaker 1: to be. M h, are you working on a book

1092
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: these days? I'm supposed to be, but right now I'm

1093
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: talking to you, And uh, there's there's certainly a lot

1094
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: to finish in my life. I have to finish stuff,

1095
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 1: and I don't feel like i've finished yet. I'm nowhere

1096
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: near finishing. So that and how's your career in the

1097
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: cannabis industry venue? Oh pretty much? That say, go way back, right,

1098
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,479
Speaker 1: you wrote a book on cannabis cultivation, you know, way back.

1099
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: That's true. I wrote a book called Primo Plant, which

1100
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: is still in print and I still have copies. It's

1101
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: a book that you can get at your bookstore. They'll

1102
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 1: order it for you. But it's just a quick manual

1103
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: on how to grow pot because there wasn't one. There

1104
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 1: was only complex manuals on how to com to grow

1105
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: pot that kind of I thought, rambled all over the

1106
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: place and weren't really useful. So coming from a gardening family.

1107
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 1: I knew how to write that thing, so it was

1108
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: a best seller. I've sold over a hundred thousand copies

1109
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 1: of that thing, and I hope everybody's happy. I am well,

1110
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: listen empty. I have loved this conversation. It's just the

1111
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: time is just flowing. Okay. I just want to say

1112
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 1: one more thing. I want to say, big shout, big

1113
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: shout out to Wavy Gravy and the Hog Farm. I

1114
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: hope everybody's having a great time this summer, and everybody's

1115
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: healthy and good, and that life is life is doing

1116
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,720
Speaker 1: what it's supposed to do, which means having fun with

1117
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 1: the kids. I just want to put that out there

1118
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 1: to Camp Win a Rainbow and all the good that

1119
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 1: they've done for people's kids over the years. Fantastic. That

1120
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 1: is a nice note to end on Blue MG. Thanks

1121
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 1: ever ever so much for joining me. It's been fun.

1122
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends

1123
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 1: about it, or you can write us a review at

1124
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:34,439
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We love

1125
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to share

1126
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us a

1127
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 1: message at one, eight three three seven seven nine sixty

1128
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: that's eight three three psycho zero. Or you can email

1129
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 1: us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find me

1130
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Ethan natal Man. You can also find

1131
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production

1132
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by

1133
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 1: me Ethan Naedelman. It's produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain.

1134
01:04:09,080 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus

1135
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt

1136
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: Frederick from My Heart Radio, and me Ethan Naedelman. Our

1137
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 1: music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to

1138
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 1: Avi Brio, s F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next

1139
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: week I'll be talking about Jews and cannabis with Eddie Portnoy,

1140
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 1: Senior researcher and director of Exhibitions at EVO, the Yiddish

1141
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: Institute for Jewish Research, where he just put together a

1142
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: fascinating exhibit on exactly that subject a few years ago.

1143
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 1: I happen to see online really kind of beautifully sculpted

1144
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 1: glass bong in the shape of him An lura for

1145
01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 1: the holiday of Hanukkah, and I thought, this manura bog

1146
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: is something that's representative of Jewish material culture. This should

1147
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: be in our collection. And as it sat at my desk,

1148
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 1: I thought to myself why would anyone smoke eight bowls

1149
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 1: of weed at a time. But the second thing I

1150
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: thought was could I feasibly make an exhibit on Jews

1151
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: and cannabis. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it, an't miss it.