WEBVTT - Dune: The Bene Gesserit 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:06.440 You've heard of animals chewing awful leg to escape a trap. 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:11.479 There's an animal kind of trick. A human would remain 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.440 in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:20.800 might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.479 Once men turned their thinking over to machines and hopes 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.920 that this would set them free, but that only permitted 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:34.599 other men with machines to enslave them. The Great Revolt 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:40.479 took away a crutch. It forced human minds to develop. 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:52.160 Schools were started to train human talents. Welcome to stot 0:00:52.200 --> 0:01:01.440 to Blow Your Mind, a production of My Heart Radio. Hey, 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:03.840 welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:08.040 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert. I know, 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.600 ever since that New Done movie came out, you have 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:14.760 been just itching to do another Science of Done episode 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:17.760 like the ones we did a few years back. But 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.440 obviously that happened right in the middle of October when 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.280 we had a bunch of other stuff planned. So it 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.280 seems like today is the day the spillover from October 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.080 is continuing yet again. Uh yeah, and I mean in 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:30.880 a way, it's a spillover from the October from before 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.919 last that the original release date for the new Done adaptation. 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.679 Oh my god, you're right. Yeah. So yeah, we, like 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:41.840 a lot of people have been have been really hungry 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.680 for this film to come out, um, because I knew 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.880 it would also just in general reignite, uh my fascination 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.080 with the Done universe, um, and you know, introduced new 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.960 people to the Done universe. Um. And of course to 0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:57.960 correspond with that, we would need to go back in 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:02.760 and do some new Dooe episodes um, because like you said, 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.680 we did a few, or we did a couple years ago, um, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.120 and now we're dipping back in. I think that was 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:11.440 my first or second year on the show, so it 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:13.320 was a long time ago now, yeah, yeah, it was 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.959 quite a while. And and since then we've had people 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.679 fairly frequently right in and say, oh, you should do 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:21.440 some more of those. We'd like to hear more of those. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.160 So well, here you go. You asked for it, You're 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.840 gonna get it. Um. I think uh, I think I 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:29.799 think we may be doing a couple of episodes here, 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.040 but I thought we'd start with the ben and ingestre 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.080 it um with a with a particular focus on the 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:40.280 gom Jabbar awareness test. So this is a pivotal early 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.079 scene in the book, and it's also a memorable sequence 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.239 from all three adaptations. Um that it's it's one of 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.240 those things where it occurs so early in the novel 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.440 that even if you try to read Doone and didn't 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.480 finish it, you probably read this part because it happens 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:02.160 almost immediately. I I read this scene several times before 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.160 I actually made it all the way through the book. 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.480 I don't remember if I mentioned this on the show before, 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.120 but when I first tried to read the book, I 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:10.000 think one of the big problems as I was reading 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.600 a really bad paperback copy with extremely tiny print and 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:18.040 small margins. Have you come across this this mass printing. Oh, 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:19.840 it's like a it's on microfilm and it has a 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.760 little magnifier that comes out of the spine. Yes, it's 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:27.040 the Orange Catholic Bible version. It's not very fun to read. Uh, 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.080 And so I never actually completed the book until I 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:33.320 got like a more readable physical copy. Well that makes sense, 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.840 that makes sense. But so I remember this scene quite 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:39.400 well because I've been through it a number of times. Well. Um, 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.320 but before we're going further though, I want to drive 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:42.920 home a few different points here. So, first of all, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.600 as much as possible, we're focusing on the first book 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.280 and its adaptations, uh, the stuff that most people are 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:51.000 gonna be familiar with, So we're we're gonna try not to, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.440 for the most part, go too deep and get into 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:59.120 territory that that casual dune enthusiasts will not understand. Also 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.080 along those lines, we have to stress that we are 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.840 not done experts, we are not lower masters, um. As 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.600 much as we we like uh the world here, I um, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.960 I believe. Let's say you've only read the first novel, correct, 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:14.280 and I've it's been a while since I've read the others. 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.800 I'm actually diving back in right now. So basically what 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.400 I'm saying is we may get something wrong, we may 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.240 misinterpret something in the books, and if that happens, well, 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:26.720 you know, right in we're happy to be corrected. Now. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:28.760 Another thing I want to stress here is that I 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.440 have not read Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's prequel 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.920 and sequel books, so I can't speak to any lower 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.000 choices made in those books. Uh. I'd love to hear 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.120 from anyone who has read them as it relates to 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.960 what we're discussing here. Um, and I'm all for folks 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:46.440 enjoying these books, but again, uh, they're not something I 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.200 have read. I should also point out that I'm gonna 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:53.080 probably reference the nineteen four Dune Encyclopedia a little bit. 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.840 This is one of my most treasured books. I I 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.279 fondly remember reading a very ragged copy of it in 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.520 the library when I was a kid. Um, and I'm 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.239 not I think I could check it out. It wasn't. 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:07.680 They didn't classify it as a reference so you could 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:09.680 check this book out. And I spent a lot of 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.479 time reading through through that and I somehow picked a 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:15.719 copy up for like twenty bucks several years ago. It 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.200 goes for crazy amounts on eBay. Now. But wait, which 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.680 library was this? What? What library had a copy of 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.440 the Dune Encyclopedia. It was just a small town Tennessee library. Yeah, wow, 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:27.720 they just had it. And um, you know, I mean, 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.200 Dun's popularity is widespread, so I guess it's not that 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.800 that's strange. But yeah, it was very ragged, and um, 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.520 I was very fond of it. And then he had 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:39.560 had to look up a copy of the years later. 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:42.680 It's it's long out of print. It's probably never going 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.400 to be in print again. Um. And it's also not 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.919 entirely cannon um, but I refer to it anyway because 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.760 it's awesome. It was it was an approved work at 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.320 the time with an encouraging intro from Frank Herbert UM. 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:58.000 But it was written by various other authors. But if 0:05:58.040 --> 0:05:59.680 you had a chance to look through it, um, you know, 0:05:59.680 --> 0:06:03.719 grant grab it because it has recipes, it has wonderful illustrations, 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.880 it has all of this additional background info. It seems 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.920 this is just me looking in for the most part 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.440 from the outside, but it seems like as a whole. 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.600 With like with Doune Lore, you basically have like three 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:20.040 different tiers. They're the original Herbert novels, the Frank Herbert novels. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:24.440 There's there's the lore of the Dune encyclopedia, and then 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:28.200 there's the additional um arm of it that is created 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:32.920 by by his son Brian Herbert and his novels sequel 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.200 in prequel novels. Oh no, So, now that there's a 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.960 big release of Dune by I guess it's by a 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.600 subsidiary of Warner Brothers. Is that right? Are we gonna 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.400 get a situation like Star Wars? Where now canon is 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.320 being decided by the media corporation that owns the rights 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.160 to the Dune movie. Um, I don't think so, because 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.479 I think it's kind of a I think there's a 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.960 certain amount of control held by um by Brian Herbert. 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.960 If I'm not okay, if I'm not mistaken, Um I 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:02.880 don't so. I don't know exactly how it's how it's 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:04.720 gonna work out, but I don't think it's quite at 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:06.600 the like the Disney level where you have like a 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:11.760 council that decides on on matters, but I have I 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:13.800 think the plan still is that we're going to get 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:16.680 a Binny jesser At television series, so that's going to 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.280 be interesting. Yeah, But what I want to know is, like, 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:24.280 is the Doinge Encyclopedia's recipe for spice melange omelets going 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.440 to be you know, B canon or ccnon or what's 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.400 the Oh yeah, yeah, that that the the pre Disney 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.320 Lucas you know, multi tiered classification system. Uh yeah, that's 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.560 pre Disney. Sorry, I can't keep I think Disney came 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:39.720 in and simplified matters to a certain extent, so I 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.160 don't think there as many classifications. But um so I 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:44.920 don't know, who knows what will happen with Done if 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.880 Done can, that's assuming like Done has like real staying 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.880 power is a mainstream commodity. I hope it does. I 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:54.600 hope that that we see at least through Doing Messiah 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.200 with this this current slate of films. Oh, I guess 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.280 I hadn't said, by the way, but I finally did 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:04.320 see the new movie and it's absolutely marvelous, just amazing, excellently. Yeah, well, 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.240 we'll have to to chat more and more about that. 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.440 Um So, so let's go ahead and just talk a 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.040 little bit about the background of the Benigester, like who 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.520 are the Benigesta and how they feature into the world 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.400 of Dune. Um you know, so for many of you, 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:20.080 this is going to be just stuff you already know. 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.040 Others you might be a little foggy on some of 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:23.800 the details. And I don't know if if you've only 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.280 watched the film, maybe you picked up on most of this, 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.280 but maybe not all of it. So Dune takes place 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.240 in the distant future. Humans have spread out from Old 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:36.760 Earth and they've inhabited various worlds. While they encounter native 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.440 organisms on these planets, including the mighty sandworms, of Iracus, 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.359 they do not encounter other intelligent life forms. So subsequently 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.360 there are there are no intelligent life forms in the 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.839 Dune Universe that are not human or at least human derived. 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.520 By the later works, Old Earth is said to be gone, 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:00.440 and we just have this vast diaspora of human colonized worlds. 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.120 All right, So there's a big interplanetary empire spans a 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:07.160 big chunk of the galaxy, but it is not populated 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.360 by all different types of intelligent aliens like say the 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:13.000 Star Wars universe, is right, and so that's something that 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.800 definitely makes it stand apart from some of these other, um, 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:21.360 you know, sci fi franchises. Now, I suppose that's like 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.559 the first big historical point in the Dune Universe is 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.680 people left Earth and started colonizing other worlds. But the 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.640 other big one, uh, and this one, you know, sets 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:32.719 it apart from from from a number of sci fi 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:34.319 visions as well, is that you have this thing called 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:39.480 the Butlerian Jihad, in which these spacefaring humans rebelled against 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:43.360 their alliance on so called thinking machines, on computers and 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:47.280 conscious AI and and also more subtly, uh, you know, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.640 it's implied against a machine way of thinking. Yeah, and 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:53.240 so this gives rise to one of the most unique 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.760 things about the sci fi setting of Dune. It is 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.360 a space faring science fiction saga without computers in it, 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.880 or I mean mostly without computers. Instead, computing tasks in 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.240 the Done universe are done by humans who specially train 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.560 their brains to do the kinds of things computers would 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:12.760 normally have to do. So you have figures like the 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.319 Men Tats, you know, sort of human computers, or the 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:18.720 the Guild Navigators who would do what a computer would 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.560 do in most other sci fi right. Yeah, so they're 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.440 all obeying these various edicts like thou shalt not create 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.120 a machine and the likeness of a human mind, or 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.560 thou shalt not disfigure the soul. Uh. There's a great 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.520 quote in the appendix to doone um to the novel 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:37.240 that says, then came the Butlet and Jahad, two generations 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.839 of chaos. The god of machine logic was overthrown among 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.280 the masses, and a new concept raised. Man may not 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.040 be replaced. And I know we've talked about this before, 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.400 but I always thought that that's an interesting touch, the 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.320 idea that, uh, that it's not just like the war 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.680 with the machines imagined in say the Terminator films, where 0:10:56.679 --> 0:10:59.400 it's well, the machines wanted to destroy us, so we 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.480 fought against them. There is more of a suggestion of 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:08.680 kind of subtle psychological revolt and in more complexity to 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.280 the conflict between humans and thinking machines that a lot 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.080 of the conflict seems to have been rooted in human 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:21.280 resentment of what the thinking machines represented within human culture. Yeah, yeah, 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.360 And I always liked how that idea seemed to have 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:28.000 been given room to breathe. You know. Um, it's not 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:30.360 like here's here's blow by blow what happened during the 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:34.280 Balerian Jahade. Here's sort of forced to, uh, to imagine 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.720 what it might have consisted of. Yeah, it happened like 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.240 ten thousand years ago and is now the basis of 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:44.240 of major religions of the of the Empire in Dune. Now. 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.760 The Butalian Jahade is said to have lasted from the 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.920 year two hundred big to the year one oh eight 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:51.960 b G. And I know some of you are saying, well, 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.199 what what is b G? What does this mean? This 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:58.120 means before guild, which leads to the next point without yeah, 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:01.400 without thinking machines. Humans have to turn largely inward in 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.640 order to manage this interstellar civilization. And without thinking machines 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:09.920 to augment human cognition, they had to enhance human cognition itself. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.920 And this, believe brings us to these different classes of 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:18.120 of humans and human factions. So we have the Spacing Guild. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.920 We're told it's a mental physical training school aimed at 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.800 developing humans capable of handling space travel, particularly the dangerous 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:29.959 navigation of hyperspace that was key to interstellar travel. And 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.680 this is actually where you know, if you know anything 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.319 about doing, you've probably heard the phrase the spice must flow. 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.400 You know that it has something to do with a 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:42.160 brutal contest for a natural resource known as spice and 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.400 uh the rule. And so I think a lot of 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.679 people have, you know, critics have compared spice to oil, 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:50.560 say in the real world, saying that it's this all 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:55.040 important natural resource that makes basically everything in the economy possible. 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.280 It makes uh, it makes travel possible, it makes delivery 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.560 of goods and services possible. And that is largely the 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.880 case in June, but not by being an energy source 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:09.240 that powers spaceships, but rather, the spice is a drug 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.840 that makes the navigation of space by human minds possible. 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.079 That's right, Yeah, would telling that it. It basically allows 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.760 members of the Space and Guild and navigators in particular, 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.240 to see possible futures, to see just a little bit 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:25.800 into the future, so that they can avoid all the 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.600 various disasters that are can occur during this, uh, this 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.640 sort of space travel. Yeah, so like you, you take 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.080 the spice and then you can kind of hallucinate fractal 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.000 mathematics that allow you to to to see enough into 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.200 the future or or see possible futures well enough that 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.400 you can navigate the harsh terrain of outer space or 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.839 folded space in particular. I'm not sure exactly what that means, 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.520 but it's it's how they travel between the stars, right. 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.360 And then, like we mentioned o theire, they're also the 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.800 mint ats, the humans bred and trained to act in 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.000 the place of computers and thinking machines, uh, kind of 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.120 futuristics of its capable of carrying out really advanced computations 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.280 in their head and also I guess just carrying around 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.880 a lot of information. Yeah, you might see them as 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.720 a kind of advisor or concigliary who has an internal 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.320 computer within their brain, right, I have to say, I 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.280 like in the new film how they they had a 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.000 mentat's sort of rolling their eyes back in their head 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.200 while computing things. This is kind of a nice visual touch, 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:28.160 I can. I think that's one of the challenges of 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:31.760 any of these adaptations of of Done is that there's 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.320 a lot of written material that you either have to 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.240 you know, just commit to including a lot of narration 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.760 and added dialogue about what they are and how they operate, 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.840 or you need to find and focus on ways to 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.280 visually represent them. And uh, and I think all the 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.080 films have have succeeded to varying degrees in that, you know, 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.360 like these these characters look like that. They all look 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.840 like this, they all have this hairstyle or lack of hairstyle. 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.120 I mean, this is I think always going to be. 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:01.880 One of the real difficult cult is in adapting Dune 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.000 like a lot. I mean, Dune is not unique in 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.640 this regard. A lot of great science fiction and fantasy works. 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.320 The real pleasure in them is in the world that 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:14.239 they established. It's like a really richly imagined, an interesting 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.880 alternate world. So a lot of the pleasure of the 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.560 story comes in getting a lot of that rich detail 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:21.480 about the world. But how do you, Yeah, how do 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:23.840 you cram that into a narrative? How do you put 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.400 that on screen without just like explaining it. You could 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.640 have a narrator just telling the audience a bunch of stuff, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.400 but that can get really tedious. So how do you 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:34.560 do it? And I think again, the new movie, I 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:38.040 think mostly navigates this really well. It finds good, succinct 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:42.160 ways to communicate some of these rich, strange details of 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:46.320 the situation. Yeah, it's seen that way to me as well. Though, 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:48.160 I'd love to hear from anyone out there who just 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:52.080 went into this cult um, because I've only heard like 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.760 one secondhand account of this where someone who's you know, 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.400 they thought the baron was the emperor sort of a thing. Like, So, 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.240 I'm wondering if that's like a common misconception based on 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.760 not knowing what to expect, or um, if that's you know, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:07.600 just something that this individual had. Well, I mean, that 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:09.880 could be a totally fair criticism. If you go in 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.440 unfamiliar i mean, the Dune world, I think this problem 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.320 is going to be sort of inevitable, Like the dune world. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.920 It's just a lot. There's a lot of detail. It's 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.880 very complicated. If you're going to tell the story in 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.400 the kind of rich way that that makes it come alive, 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.200 a lot of that detail is going to be in there, 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:32.480 and so it can be easy to miss things. Thank you, 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.080 thank you. All right, Well let's come back to the 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.400 Bennie Jesser. So, the Beni Jessri are related to these 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:42.280 other groups, but they untill they predate both of them. Uh. 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.920 They so they expanded with humanity across the stars and 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:47.720 the whole time, they're kind of working in the shadows, 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.120 functioning in many cases like a shadow government and behind 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.840 the guise of a semi mystical organization. They're a mostly 0:16:55.920 --> 0:17:01.640 female organization who are particularly adept at manipulating religious culture. Uh. 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.679 They have seemed to have abilities related to mind control 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.520 and hypnosis. They have intense physical and mental conditioning that 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:12.000 make them really potent operatives and combatants. So you know, 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.280 they can really hold their own and we see them 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.440 do that in the movie, of course, um at least 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.639 in what we see Jessica Paul's mom to actually is 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:21.959 of course a Bennie jess It. They also make use 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:25.320 of spice themselves to sort of enhance these talents, and 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.240 we're also told they're aided by a kind of union 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.880 collective on consciousness. One thing I think is interesting about 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.320 the Bennie Jesser it is they exist within the Dune 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.679 universe kind of at the boundary of of hard science 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.600 fiction and fantasy, because there's a lot that they do 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:47.199 that seems right on the border of is this magic, right, Like, 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.919 Dune doesn't include overt magic, you know, you don't have 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.679 people who are majors or casting spells or anything. But 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.520 the Bennie Jesser in particular, can do a lot of 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.760 things that it is assumed that there is no magic involved, 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.240 and they are working by just some kind of obscure 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.560 physical mechanism, but you might not understand what that mechanism is, right, 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.800 And they guard their secrets too, But this also leads 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.080 to their critics saying, oh, well, they're a bunch of wages. 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.440 That's witchcraft what they're doing now. One of their big 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.040 games in the in the books, of course, is especially 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.119 the first book, is the selective breeding of the Quisots 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.560 hot iraq Uh not a mirror men tab but a 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.800 kind of super men tab they want to make essentially 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.080 a living some supercomputer, uh quote, one who can be 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:34.639 many places at once. And Herbert explains uh quote, in 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.520 simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:42.040 powers permitting him to understand and use higher ordered dimensions. 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.399 And this fits into a very complicated power seeking plot 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:53.000 that they have about essentially trying to create a galactic Messiah. Right. So, um, 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.240 I guess in short, the benidgester, I mean, you say 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:58.000 all these things out loud in a quick summary, it's 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.800 it's it's an awful lot um uh, you know, in 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.080 terms of like, you know, you're gonna fit this faction 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.639 into a movie along with all these other interesting factions 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.680 and families and so forth, and not to mention the 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.640 various technologies and organisms, um, you know, all all all 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.679 the more credit to any of these adaptations that have 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.760 pulled that off. Uh. They have a lot of tricks 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.159 up their sleeve, many of which might seem like witchcraft 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:25.600 of the casual observer. But we're gonna come back to that. 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.080 That that first big one that we see the sort 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.280 of our in our real introduction to the Benegestrate is 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:34.480 of course the gom Jabbar awareness test. All right, this 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:36.280 is the scene we were talking about right at the 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.720 beginning of the novel that I've read multiple times. Yeah, 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.760 I even read up to around this part to my son, 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:44.720 thinking like I picked up soon after many years, and 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.600 maybe it's maybe he'd like it. Uh, And we got 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.040 made about that fire and I was then I was reminded, oh, yeah, 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:51.520 this is maybe a little this is too dense for 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:53.879 him right now. You know, it will save this one 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:56.320 for later. But but yeah, it's a great scene, and 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:58.040 we're not gonna we're not gonna spend I guess too 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.360 much time explaining what happens. You know, beat I beat. 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.800 But but here are the basics. Quick note by the way, um, 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:06.480 we're probably gonna end up saying a tradees instead of 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.200 a trades. We're probably gonna if we get into the 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:13.239 the the hearkenings Harkonan's, we're gonna mix those pronunciations up 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.400 as well. Um, there's of course kind of a back 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:18.120 and forth I guess about how you're supposed to say 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.280 these things. The main character of Dune is Paula Tradees. 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.200 I've always said a tradees. We. When we didn't add 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.159 for this movie, they were like no, you really need 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.880 to say a tray Eddies, which you said is apparently 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.119 how how Frank Herbert said it at some point, But 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:35.359 I don't know. I've always heard of Tradees, That's how 0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:38.680 I've always said it. Yeah, Herbert said a Treedes and 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.639 he said hearken. And but you know, I'm of the 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.000 mind too that ultimately these books live in our brains 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.080 and sometimes there's a pronunciation there that doesn't match up 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:51.760 with with reality, and it's just how it goes, all right. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:54.879 So in this scene we have Paula Trayedes, the son 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:58.560 of Duke leto Trades, and he's there with Lady Jessica 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.280 Um a Binny sr Its sister installed in the Tradees 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.359 household Um as part of the breeding program, Jessica was 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.520 supposed to have a daughter who would then go on 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:12.080 to birth the Quizatts Hoderratch, but then she defied them 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:15.680 and had a son instead Um. And then that son, 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.040 of course, is Paul. And Paul has dreams and sometimes 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.960 those dreams come true. So the Benejesterate send Reverend Mother 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.560 Guias Helen Mahaam to test him. And Moham is not 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.600 only a high ranking Bena Jessriate. She is the Imperial 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.680 truth Sayer and probably one of the most dangerous humans 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.160 in this entire fictional galaxy. So she's like a mega 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.800 Bennie Jesterrich. She knows all the tricks, all the secret skills. 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.480 You do not want to get on her bad side, right, 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:44.840 And Charlotte Rampling did a great job, by the way, 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.879 I really hope her performance. Yeah, she's really good. So 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.080 what does she do? She conducts this gom jabbar awareness 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.760 test on Paul. He's told to place his hand into 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.159 a small, curious green box and then she holds this 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.840 like she has this little needle thing called the gone jibar. 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:05.200 She holds it to his neck. Uh. And here's the situation. 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:07.360 She lays it out. If you take your hand out 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:09.520 of this box, I'm gonna jab you in the neck 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.639 with this pointy thing. Um. The gone jibar here is 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.840 essentially a poison needle that will just absolutely kill you dead. 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.480 It contains a meta cyanide I think she says, yes, 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.159 meta cyanide, so you might be prepared for sanide, but 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:28.160 not meta cyanide um. The box so meta. The box 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.880 is far more subtle, though, So you stick your hand 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.399 in this box, and it will begin to tingle with sensation, 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.439 you know, like maybe you know, just some maybe eventually 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:41.040 an itching begins. But eventually, and rather quickly, this is 0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:43.760 going to grow into an all consuming feeling of pain. 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:46.520 And generally speaking, I think people stick their hand in 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:48.720 the box, they just they imagine that their hand is 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:52.600 just on fire, just crumbling into ashes, and there eventually, 0:22:53.040 --> 0:22:55.480 right it says, I think specifically that when when the 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:58.920 pain increases in intensity, Paul believes that his hand is 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:02.480 being charred away and just turned into a stump. Yeah. 0:23:03.080 --> 0:23:05.400 So you know, Paul, Paul has a lot of questions 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.080 and he's maybe a little bold and asking them at times. 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:11.359 And during this this session, uh, he asked what's in 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:13.960 the box? And she's like, it's pain, pains in the box. 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.159 And he's like okay, and but she keeps on going. Um, 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:19.800 she says, you've heard of animals chewing off a leg 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:23.000 to escape a trap. There's an animal kind of trick. 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.920 A human would remain in the trap, endure the pain, 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:29.760 feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove 0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:32.520 a threat to his kind. Okay, So she's making a 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:36.280 distinction here about ways of responding to a threat, responding 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:40.520 with just sort of with with panic or with with strategy, right, 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:44.120 and Mahiam explains that this this is a testacy if 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:46.679 Paul is a human or an animal, and why when 0:23:46.720 --> 0:23:50.000 Paul asked, why are you testing for humans? He replies 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:52.520 to set you free? And and then she goes back 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:55.200 to the whole butt Larry and Johada a bit and says, quote, 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:57.680 once men turned their thinking over the machines and hopes 0:23:57.720 --> 0:23:59.720 that this would set them free, but that only for 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:01.840 men and other men with machines to enslave them. The 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:05.119 Great Revolt took away a crutch. It forced human minds 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.840 to develop. Schools were started to train human talents. And 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:10.920 from here she goes on to explain that the two 0:24:11.040 --> 0:24:13.440 main schools to emerge from this ancient shift where the 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:18.480 Guild focusing on mathematics and the Benegesserate focusing on politics. 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:21.960 Now that word kind of rings strange in the context, 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:23.520 but I think I think it makes sense if you 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:26.480 work it out. Yeah, like to to reach this point 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:28.280 where you're like, oh, they're there there, which is their 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.159 psychic they have they have crazy technology, they they have 0:24:31.280 --> 0:24:35.479 martial arts, they're super into politics. That makes them sound like, oh, 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:37.560 oh my good god, what topic are they going to 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:42.840 insist on talking to me about? Um? Right, um it? Politics, 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:45.639 I think can sound a bit lame as the superpower 0:24:45.720 --> 0:24:48.600 of the benagestrate, but yeah, we have to I think 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:51.119 we have to realize they're talking about politics here in 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:54.159 the grander scheming sense, and not a shake hands and 0:24:54.240 --> 0:24:56.879 kiss babies sort of thing, or a um, you know, 0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:00.880 the sort of politics that one sees on television every day. Yeah. Well, 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:02.960 I mean there are multiple ways in which that could 0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:05.000 be misleading. I mean, one thing I think it's worth 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:07.000 noting is that when I hear the word politics, I 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:12.679 automatically tend to assume a kind of basically democratic electoral context, 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:16.919 where even when the word has negative connotations, those negative 0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:20.280 connotations are against that background. So it might have to 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:24.440 do with people lying or misrepresenting their priorities, or engaging 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:27.520 in petty corruption, or putting their private interests above the 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:30.720 public interests, and so forth, all things that are bad, 0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:33.840 but on a different frequency than the political situation of 0:25:33.880 --> 0:25:37.160 the done universe. Because the political system of the done 0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:40.840 universe is hard to describe succinctly, but I think could 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:45.680 best be seen as something like techno feudalism or maybe 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:49.439 sort of interplanetary fascist imperialism with it with a special 0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:53.159 political difference to trade guilds. But whatever it is, it 0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:57.040 is certainly not electoral democracy. It's not a good political situation. 0:25:57.200 --> 0:26:00.840 So that the use of politics and the bien ejeserate since, 0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:05.720 I think, should be understood as expertise in manipulating human 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:12.440 institutions and seeking power and authority within a ruthless, hierarchical empire. Yeah, 0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:14.960 I think that sums it up pretty well. So this test, 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:18.280 this Gonjibar awareness test, we learn, is ultimately about giving 0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:20.520 the proctor of this test the chance to see how 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:24.080 the individual reacts to intense stress, and in doing so 0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:28.040 test them on their use of benajesterriate teachings, which Paul 0:26:28.119 --> 0:26:31.520 had been instructed in by his mother. Mild spoiler, Paul 0:26:31.520 --> 0:26:35.320 passes the test. He does not die like you know, 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:38.560 five minutes into the film. Good job, Paul. Now, at 0:26:38.600 --> 0:26:41.800 this point I thought we might get into some explanations 0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:44.880 for what's actually going on in this test, or supposed 0:26:44.880 --> 0:26:46.159 to be going on in this test, how we might 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:49.480 interpret it. Um, you know, I guess in many respects, 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:51.680 the test is pretty simple. You know, you got a 0:26:51.720 --> 0:26:53.960 needle with a drop of poison on it, You've got 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:56.720 this box. And Mahaim says that the secret of the 0:26:56.760 --> 0:26:58.840 box is something lots of folks would love to have, 0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:02.240 you know, because clearly there there are plenty of bad 0:27:03.000 --> 0:27:07.040 characters in the universe who would like to cause pain. Uh. 0:27:07.320 --> 0:27:10.400 It's said to work via nerve inducers, creating a sensation 0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:14.000 of intense you know, ultimately burning pain without actually causing 0:27:14.080 --> 0:27:17.800 physical damage. Now, I mentioned the Dune Encyclopedia, and I 0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:19.920 just want to point out that, interestingly, interestingly enough, it 0:27:20.040 --> 0:27:22.920 does not really tap tackle this topic at all. It's 0:27:22.920 --> 0:27:26.000 a book that goes all in on things like how 0:27:26.119 --> 0:27:30.200 the molecular structure of milange might work, or exactly how 0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:33.960 excon no rooms might function. But they pretty much left 0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.399 the gone Jibar awareness test alone, which I was I 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:39.200 was kind of surprised that. I was like, there must 0:27:39.200 --> 0:27:41.320 be a huge entry to this about this that I 0:27:41.400 --> 0:27:44.920 just never read. That's interesting. But of course there was 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:48.760 an article about the gonjibar that got into some interesting 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:52.200 stuff in another book we've referenced. This one definitely came 0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:55.320 up in our previous episodes. On the science of Dune, 0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:57.800 and the book is actually called The Science of Dune, 0:27:58.240 --> 0:28:01.320 published in two thousand and eight. It is edited by 0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:05.000 Kevin R. Grazier, and there is a chapter on the 0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:08.359 gom Jibar called The Black Hole of Pain by an 0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:11.400 author named Carol Hart. This is still very much in print, 0:28:11.480 --> 0:28:13.879 by the way, so if you're interested, you can definitely 0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:15.920 grab a copy. Oh yeah, A lot of the essays 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:17.960 in this book are pretty interesting. Mostly what they do 0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:21.960 is they take one of the concepts explained in Dune 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:24.680 and they talk about its situation within the Dune universe, 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.320 but then try to relate it to real world science 0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:30.399 or sort of situate its uh, its role in the 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:33.760 narrative within the context of real world science. And so 0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:36.040 that this essay by Carol Hart is all about the 0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:39.280 gom Jabbar scene and UH and and how it relates 0:28:39.360 --> 0:28:42.560 to some of the neuroscience of pain. So one of 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:44.760 the things she says at the beginning of this essay 0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:49.120 is that, of course the hand is quote exquisitely sensitive 0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:52.640 to painful and non painful stimuli. And I think we 0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:55.360 all know this from experience. Generally, you know, the hands 0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:59.960 are there's just so much more complexity of tactle feel 0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:02.360 ling going on there, then there is in many other 0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:04.960 parts of the body. I remember when I was a 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:06.720 kid and you would have to go to the doctor 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:09.640 and get a finger pricked um in order to give 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:12.120 a blood sample. I remember I used to think, why 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:14.520 can't they just like prick you on the back or 0:29:14.600 --> 0:29:17.000 on the leg or something to get the blood sample, 0:29:17.320 --> 0:29:19.720 because it seems like it's on the fingertip it hurts 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:21.960 almost more than it would just about anywhere else. I 0:29:21.960 --> 0:29:24.320 don't know. Maybe some places I'm like, you know, the 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:26.640 face or a few other key points in the body 0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:29.640 might might be as distressing, but the fingertip just it 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:33.000 seemed unnecessarily cruel to me. Yeah, I know exactly what 0:29:33.080 --> 0:29:35.880 you're talking about. I I try to regularly give blood 0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:38.960 at local blood drives, and um, you know, I I 0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:42.200 don't want to stare at the needle in my arm. 0:29:42.760 --> 0:29:44.800 Uh that's involved in the actual blood draw. But I 0:29:44.840 --> 0:29:46.720 think if I had to choose, like, what is what's 0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:50.040 my least favorite between the needle in my arm and 0:29:50.120 --> 0:29:52.720 that that prick that they do just to test your blood. Initially, 0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:56.440 it's always that that prick because it's just it's just 0:29:56.640 --> 0:29:58.920 like this sudden punching, and there's this you know, the 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:01.400 sharp since the pain is very fleeting. Uh. And it's 0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:03.800 not you know, it's not bad in terms of you know, 0:30:03.880 --> 0:30:05.320 as far as all things go, but it is a 0:30:05.360 --> 0:30:09.320 stark reminder of just how sensitive the fingers are. Yeah. 0:30:09.400 --> 0:30:11.240 And I think there are multiple things going on here 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:13.920 with this exquisite sensitivity in the hands. I mean, one 0:30:14.000 --> 0:30:16.280 thing is that the hands have to be very sensitive 0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:19.360 in order to be dexterous. But there's also I believe, 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:23.880 a conceptual sensitivity in that you you realize that the 0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:27.400 hands in a way are more fragile than than other 0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:29.720 parts of the body. You know that, uh, that you 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:31.840 you need them to do all kinds of things. So 0:30:31.960 --> 0:30:35.880 an injury to the finger will will limit the things 0:30:35.960 --> 0:30:39.040 you can do more more so than an equivalent, say 0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:41.880 prick or injury on like the thigh or the or 0:30:41.960 --> 0:30:44.680 the back or something would. Yeah. Now, from here in 0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:47.120 Heart's essay, she goes on to talk briefly about the 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:52.040 ways that pain pathways function within the body. What actually 0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:54.880 happens when a pain sensation is triggered, say by an 0:30:54.960 --> 0:30:57.640 injury to the hand. Uh. And so the first thing 0:30:57.760 --> 0:31:00.240 she says is that most types of injury to the 0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:04.120 hand will result in triggering more or less identical pain 0:31:04.240 --> 0:31:07.280 sensing receptors in the in the nervous system called NO 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:12.160 susceptors pain sensors uh. And the one exception she cites 0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:16.000 is certain kinds of like deep mechanical pressure or crushing pain. 0:31:17.400 --> 0:31:20.080 But generally, she says, these NO susceptors are going to 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:25.560 detect injuries without much reference to discriminating it's it's type. So, 0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:29.320 for example, while different receptors in in the tissues of 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:31.400 the hand will be able to tell the difference between 0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:36.200 a range of warm and cool temperatures, extremes of heat 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:39.480 or cold that would trigger these pain receptors, they just 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:43.520 register as undifferentiated pain and use the same neural pathways. 0:31:44.440 --> 0:31:46.160 And so I thought that was kind of interesting. And 0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:48.720 she uses that to tie into some of the ambiguity 0:31:48.880 --> 0:31:51.000 of of what's going on with the box, because of 0:31:51.080 --> 0:31:53.560 course Paul cannot see his hand in the box, and 0:31:53.640 --> 0:31:56.080 he doesn't know what's happening to it. He just knows 0:31:56.440 --> 0:32:00.240 something painful is happening. And so she uses this to 0:32:00.320 --> 0:32:04.160 explain that the intense burning sensation he experiences could be 0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:08.120 other things. It could that could include like extreme cold. Yeah, 0:32:08.240 --> 0:32:10.760 I always always liked this. Uh, it's kind of a 0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:14.240 model of an exploration of just pain in general, because, 0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:17.080 as we've touched on before, there's always the sensation of pain, 0:32:17.160 --> 0:32:19.480 but then there's the mental world of thinking about the pain, 0:32:19.600 --> 0:32:23.000 worrying about the pain, interpreting the pain. And in this, 0:32:23.280 --> 0:32:25.160 you know, Paul's hand is literally in a in a 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:29.000 green but you know black box where you can't actually 0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:31.360 see what's going on in there. Well, it's actually both. 0:32:31.440 --> 0:32:33.800 It's green on the outside, but then he says on 0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:37.280 the inside, no light penetrates that. He says, it's like 0:32:37.360 --> 0:32:41.480 a perfectly black interior that you can't see at all. Yeah. 0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:45.680 But to review, like the sensations that the narrative says 0:32:45.720 --> 0:32:48.719 Paul experiences while his hand is in the box, uh, 0:32:48.760 --> 0:32:51.840 it says, first he feels cold, and then he feels 0:32:52.160 --> 0:32:56.000 slick metal, and this is presumably contact with the inside 0:32:56.040 --> 0:32:58.520 of the box. One thing I don't know if you 0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:01.480 remember this, but it's kind of range that the dimensions 0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:03.720 of the box are said to be very small. I 0:33:03.760 --> 0:33:07.000 think it's said to be fifteen centimeters to to a side, 0:33:07.120 --> 0:33:09.479 which means that's like six inches I mean, I mean, 0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:13.960 that's really small to get the hand in there. But anyway, 0:33:14.000 --> 0:33:16.680 after this, it goes on to Paul saying that he 0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:20.960 feels prickling, as if his hand were asleep. And then 0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:24.080 this prickling turns into an itch, and then from an 0:33:24.120 --> 0:33:27.120 itch it turns into burning, and then the burning just 0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:32.280 increases and increases in intensity until it is excruciating. And 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:36.000 from here Carol Hart compares this to the sequence of 0:33:36.080 --> 0:33:39.440 sensations when pain is usually felt from an injury to 0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:42.800 the hands, such as burning or cutting. And there are 0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:45.600 actually two different processes that go on here. I thought 0:33:45.640 --> 0:33:48.360 this was kind of interesting. So the first one is 0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:51.880 you get a very fast response that travels on what 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:55.200 she calls fast pain fibers. These are sometimes called type 0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:59.800 three nerve fibers or a delta fibers and uh and 0:34:00.040 --> 0:34:02.760 this response is is very quick, so this would be like, 0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:05.640 you know, a tenth of a second uh and and 0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:11.360 it's also usually not experienced as like a miserable, ongoing experience. 0:34:11.400 --> 0:34:14.840 It is a quick, sharp sensation, usually something that prompts 0:34:14.880 --> 0:34:18.040 you to immediately withdraw your hand from the source of 0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:20.640 the injury. And I think this is one of the 0:34:20.719 --> 0:34:24.239 interesting things about pain when compared to other types of 0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:27.440 sensory input, which is that in some cases at least, 0:34:28.320 --> 0:34:33.200 pain is almost synonymous with the behavioral reaction to it. 0:34:33.560 --> 0:34:36.080 So what I mean by that is, uh, you know 0:34:37.280 --> 0:34:39.520 a lot of other types of sensory input, you need 0:34:39.640 --> 0:34:43.560 to process them and then you know, judge your reaction 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:46.960 based on the situation. But if you if you say, 0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:50.600 touch a hot stove or something, your hand is withdrawn 0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:54.160 before you have even thought about it, and it's like 0:34:54.280 --> 0:34:56.520 after your hand is off it, then you're like, oh wow, 0:34:56.640 --> 0:34:59.520 what just happened? You know, you have to process it backwards, 0:35:00.760 --> 0:35:02.880 which is interesting. I mean I can't really think of 0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:05.680 much other sensory information that works that way. Just just 0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:10.760 prompting absolutely immediate, unthinking response that you can only reflect 0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:14.480 on backwards. Yeah, it is that that that that sharp, 0:35:14.640 --> 0:35:18.279 intense message. I'll say, it's basically saying, finger is in 0:35:18.360 --> 0:35:21.160 contact with something that is burning finger, remove finger from 0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:26.440 said substance their object. You know, uh, immediate reaction. But 0:35:26.520 --> 0:35:29.080 then Heart goes on to explain that there's a secondary 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:31.720 type of pain actually that that travels via a different 0:35:31.800 --> 0:35:33.759 neural pathway. So this would be what she calls the 0:35:33.880 --> 0:35:36.959 slow pain fibers. These are also known as type four 0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:41.120 or sea fibers, and this refers to the pathway from 0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:44.600 the nerve endings in the tissue actually flowing all the 0:35:44.680 --> 0:35:47.200 way up the spinal cord and connecting to the brain, 0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:51.760 and these fibers, the slow pain fibers, they take longer 0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:54.400 to get running. They need, she says, at least a 0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:57.080 full second to get the message to the brain. And 0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:00.239 then from here these turn into a more bill ding 0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:04.520 persistent sensation. That is the pain we're usually thinking of 0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:08.080 as as the the ongoing experience of pain when we've 0:36:08.120 --> 0:36:10.640 been injured. So this might be a kind of burning 0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:14.600 or aching pain that persists. It will usually grow gradually 0:36:14.719 --> 0:36:18.600 worse over time. It often spreads out from the original 0:36:18.719 --> 0:36:20.560 site of the injury, so you might have a cut 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:22.759 on the hand, but then you know by the time 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:25.960 it builds over the course of seconds or minutes that 0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:28.080 you know the whole hand is aching. Is that there's 0:36:28.200 --> 0:36:32.319 this radiating uh quality to it. And then also has 0:36:32.400 --> 0:36:36.160 something to do with the immune system's inflammation response, which 0:36:36.280 --> 0:36:39.680 is the sort of all purpose first responder two cellular 0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:42.680 trauma and the body inflammation is of course also highly 0:36:42.719 --> 0:36:46.399 associated with pain and sensitivity to further stimuli causing even 0:36:46.480 --> 0:36:49.680 greater pain. And so this transition from the initial fast 0:36:49.760 --> 0:36:52.960 pain fibers to the slow pain fibers is what Heart 0:36:53.280 --> 0:36:57.279 refers to as the double pain response. But there's another 0:36:57.320 --> 0:37:00.480 way in which the information we get via the sea 0:37:00.600 --> 0:37:04.879 fiber pathways, the slow pain pathways, how they differ from 0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:08.960 other kinds of sensory input, and uh, and the and 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:11.319 the point that Heart makes is that, unlike many other 0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:16.160 kinds of sensory input, they really persist with repeated exposure. 0:37:16.880 --> 0:37:19.120 So you know, we've talked on the show before about 0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:25.200 different types of neural desensitization to two inputs that you know, 0:37:25.320 --> 0:37:29.120 if you just repeatedly get the same sense information over 0:37:29.280 --> 0:37:33.160 and over again in an unchanging way, it very often 0:37:33.320 --> 0:37:37.960 fades into the background of consciousness. It somehow becomes invisible. So, uh, 0:37:38.040 --> 0:37:40.800 this can be common with smells in your environment. So 0:37:40.960 --> 0:37:42.719 you know, when you first come around the paper mill, 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:44.759 you can really smell it, but over the course of 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:47.800 some amount of time, probably a matter of minutes, you 0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:49.480 just kind of get used to it and then you 0:37:49.560 --> 0:37:52.600 don't really notice that you smell it anymore. Yeah, or 0:37:52.680 --> 0:37:56.080 like cooking smells another example of this. You know, you say, 0:37:56.160 --> 0:37:58.600 cook a bunch of onions. You don't really notice how 0:37:58.680 --> 0:38:01.120 this is affected they sent inside the house until you 0:38:01.160 --> 0:38:04.000 step outside for a little bit and come back exactly. Yeah, 0:38:04.560 --> 0:38:06.680 the same is true of sounds in your environment. So 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:10.080 environmental sounds, you know, the rain coming down outside or 0:38:10.120 --> 0:38:14.560 the refrigerator humming. If it's just the same static sound 0:38:14.680 --> 0:38:17.760 input for a long time, you will pretty quickly become 0:38:17.800 --> 0:38:20.320 accustomed to it and not notice it anymore unless you, 0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:23.200 you know, stop to look for it or something. And 0:38:23.320 --> 0:38:26.120 of course the same is true with tactle sensations in 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:30.280 the body, which would be the most analogous to pain sensations. Uh. Pressure, 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:32.640 as long as it's not painful will will work in 0:38:32.719 --> 0:38:34.759 this case. So the pressure, think about the pressure of 0:38:34.800 --> 0:38:38.279 your clothes against your skin, or your feet against the 0:38:38.360 --> 0:38:41.239 floor or your butt against the chair. It all kind 0:38:41.280 --> 0:38:44.920 of disappears from your consciousness after a few moments unless 0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:47.800 you either stop to think about it or it happens 0:38:47.840 --> 0:38:52.040 to become uncomfortable. So all of these sensory stimuli tend 0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:55.799 to fade away rather quickly. But sea fiber pain has 0:38:55.960 --> 0:39:00.720 a sticky quality and consciousness. It often just keeps hurting 0:39:00.880 --> 0:39:04.759 until something changes, either the painful stimulus is removed or 0:39:04.800 --> 0:39:08.319 the swelling goes down or healing takes place. And in fact, 0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:12.160 not only does it persist, it actually does exactly the 0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:15.960 opposite in many cases. So you repeat the same sensory 0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:19.120 input in terms of most sounds or smells and so forth, 0:39:19.200 --> 0:39:22.600 and you will eventually become desensitized to them until they disappear. 0:39:23.000 --> 0:39:25.960 But Heart notes that pain sensations are subject to this 0:39:26.120 --> 0:39:29.840 opposite phenomenon that sometimes known as pain wind up or 0:39:30.239 --> 0:39:34.400 temporal summation, and this is where the body becomes increasingly 0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:39.640 sensitive to unchanging painful stimulus. The same painful stimulus is 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:42.560 not getting more intense in terms of what's happening to 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.560 your body. It just the same thing keeps happening, and 0:39:45.680 --> 0:39:49.960 it feels more and more painful upon repetition. And Heart 0:39:50.000 --> 0:39:54.040 actually argues that increasing pain from repeated nerve stimulation sounds 0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:57.360 very similar to what is described in the scene, except 0:39:57.440 --> 0:40:00.880 with the interesting feature that the pain stop completely in 0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:03.839 an instant. When when the reverend mother completes the test, 0:40:03.920 --> 0:40:06.520 she says, okay, Paul is past. It's done, and then 0:40:06.680 --> 0:40:09.560 it says that Paul experienced the pain going away as 0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:12.960 if you know, somebody flipped a switch, and pain in 0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:15.520 the body rarely does this. It rarely goes away that 0:40:15.719 --> 0:40:24.840 fast than now. Part of the whole point of this 0:40:25.040 --> 0:40:30.560 scene in the book is the reverend Mother's claim that essentially, 0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:32.640 you know it's it's all in your head. She she 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:35.120 mocks the idea of pain, and she says to Paul, 0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:38.520 a human can override any nerve in the body. And 0:40:38.600 --> 0:40:40.680 so she's saying, Oh, you're afraid of pain, that just 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:43.520 means you're weak. You know that you haven't figured out 0:40:43.600 --> 0:40:46.480 how to how to overcome it like I can. And 0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:50.279 so the question is is it true that you know 0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:52.840 a human can override any nerve in the body, the 0:40:52.920 --> 0:40:55.600 idea that that pain is is all mental. Well, I 0:40:55.880 --> 0:40:59.120 don't think that's entirely true. But the grain of truth 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:03.080 to it is that the experience of pain is subject 0:41:03.200 --> 0:41:07.480 to more inputs than simply the pure sensory stimulus applied 0:41:07.640 --> 0:41:10.480 to the body, that is, you know, causing the injury 0:41:10.640 --> 0:41:13.560 or causing the pain. In terms of the environmental input, 0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:16.520 you know, the knife cutting the skin, or the the 0:41:16.880 --> 0:41:19.440 you know, the stick poking you, or the hot iron 0:41:19.520 --> 0:41:22.000 against your hand or whatever it is. Uh and and 0:41:22.280 --> 0:41:26.279 some of these inputs are cognitive. And so I think 0:41:26.320 --> 0:41:29.359 it's a good way to approach this to reimagine pain 0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:34.359 not as a sensory input in itself, but actually as 0:41:34.600 --> 0:41:38.080 an experience. UH. And So here's the analogy I would use. 0:41:38.719 --> 0:41:41.719 It's much the same way that vision is not an 0:41:41.920 --> 0:41:46.520 input from the eyes but an experience. The environmental input 0:41:46.719 --> 0:41:49.880 for vision would be light, But if you've listened to 0:41:49.920 --> 0:41:52.360 this show for a while, you probably know that actually 0:41:52.480 --> 0:41:56.520 all kinds of other inputs contribute to our experience of vision, 0:41:57.160 --> 0:42:00.960 such that a person can see things with no input 0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:04.680 of light. So think about the the UH studies we've 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:08.239 talked about with hallucinations that occur in total darkness. A 0:42:08.320 --> 0:42:11.839 person can have can be blindfolded, or can be down 0:42:11.880 --> 0:42:14.279 in a cave or something where there's no light at all, 0:42:14.640 --> 0:42:17.919 and yet they can experience vision. They can see things, 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:21.800 and sometimes these things they see are not just you know, 0:42:22.200 --> 0:42:28.480 hallucinations unconnected from reality. Sometimes these hallucinatory visions can include 0:42:28.640 --> 0:42:33.120 real information based on other senses. The classic example I 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:35.920 think we've talked about on the show is, for example, UH, 0:42:36.000 --> 0:42:39.160 the body using appropriate reception, so it's natural sense that 0:42:39.280 --> 0:42:42.800 allows it to know where its own limbs are to 0:42:43.200 --> 0:42:46.960 feed into the visual system, allowing you to in the 0:42:47.160 --> 0:42:50.560 total absence of light, hallucinate the vision of your own 0:42:50.680 --> 0:42:53.520 hands in front of your face. Or then on the 0:42:53.600 --> 0:42:55.720 other end, you can think about the way that vision 0:42:55.960 --> 0:42:59.600 can receive inputs of light uh in and at least 0:42:59.680 --> 0:43:04.080 part really working visual system and have no conscious experience 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:07.359 of vision. So think about cases such as blind site 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:10.920 where a person is blind. In terms of their conscious experience, 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:14.360 they do not experience vision, but they can still do 0:43:14.640 --> 0:43:17.720 some things that show that the brain is getting visual 0:43:17.840 --> 0:43:20.360 inputs in some way and reacting based on them. The 0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:22.560 person is just not able to see it with the 0:43:22.600 --> 0:43:25.080 conscious part of their brain. And so I think pain 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.960 is not equivalent to this in every respect, but it's 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:31.080 close in some ways. So you can think about, I 0:43:31.160 --> 0:43:33.120 don't know, you know, the hot thing on your hand, 0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:35.880 is that's the external stimulus applied to the body. That 0:43:35.920 --> 0:43:38.319 would be the environmental input, kind of like the light 0:43:38.480 --> 0:43:41.759 in vision. But then this input is conducted through pain 0:43:41.840 --> 0:43:44.160 fibers and brought to the brain and is one of 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:49.120 a number of contributors to the subjective mental experience of pain, 0:43:49.600 --> 0:43:53.960 which itself consists of multiple independent components that can behave 0:43:54.719 --> 0:43:57.280 somewhat independently. So they think about, you know, the different 0:43:57.320 --> 0:44:00.760 parts of pain that you can sometimes even even sense yourself, 0:44:00.880 --> 0:44:05.320 like the the physical sensation of pain versus the emotional 0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:09.279 component of pain, and they usually blend together into a 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:12.000 unified experience, but there can be you can you have 0:44:12.160 --> 0:44:15.239 sort of moments of clarity where you feel them, uh 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:18.279 in their own different ways. You get the texture of each, 0:44:18.800 --> 0:44:21.359 if you know what I'm talking about, Rob, Yeah, yeah, 0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:23.920 I think so. I mean there's this whole to like 0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:27.279 the emotional context of of pain. Like you you slip 0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:29.920 and fall, you you know, you hurt your back in 0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:33.200 in the moment. Yeah, there's certainly they the sensation, but 0:44:33.239 --> 0:44:35.560 then there's all there are these added levels of like, well, 0:44:35.840 --> 0:44:37.960 am I gonna be able to walk after this? Um? 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:41.520 Is this going to be a pain that sticks with me? Um? 0:44:41.960 --> 0:44:43.360 You know? How long is it gonna take for me 0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:46.480 to get get over this? Um? As well as even 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:49.279 considerations like does this mean my evening plans are off? 0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:52.640 Is this gonna cost me you know a lot of money? 0:44:53.320 --> 0:44:58.080 Are you embarrassed? Are you embarrassing? Yeah? So there's there's 0:44:58.120 --> 0:45:00.840 so many things going on with you. Even you know, 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:02.680 I think I guess to fall under your back can 0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:05.680 be quite dramatic. But even two simple things like um, 0:45:06.280 --> 0:45:08.440 you know, papercut, you can you can have some of 0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:10.000 these thoughts like oh my goodness, I'm gonna have to 0:45:10.040 --> 0:45:11.759 put wear a band aid now if I have a 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:14.080 band aid on, that's gonna affect my typing. How's that 0:45:14.120 --> 0:45:17.680 going to impact my job performance today? Right? So, addressing 0:45:17.800 --> 0:45:21.160 this question of like, what are the other measurable inputs 0:45:21.400 --> 0:45:25.160 on the subjective total experience of pain in the brain 0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:28.799 heart offers a really interesting example that's been backed up 0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:32.120 by some studies, and uh the example she gives is 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:36.360 your belief in the significance of the injury that is 0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:41.440 causing the pain. Uh So, she cites behavioral studies showing 0:45:41.520 --> 0:45:44.279 that if you you take people and you subject them 0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:47.120 to the exact same sensory input The example she gives 0:45:47.280 --> 0:45:50.520 is a hand immersed in water that is too hot 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:53.920 to be comfortable, so not not hot enough to actually 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:56.480 like burn your skin at least for the time of 0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:59.760 exposure used in the experiment, but more hot than feels 0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:04.480 a you take people their hand in that hot temperature 0:46:04.560 --> 0:46:09.400 of water, and apparently people report less emotional experience of 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:13.719 pain if the only variable you alter is informing them 0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:16.120 that they will not be injured by the hot water. 0:46:16.320 --> 0:46:18.520 So if you say this will sting, but it's not 0:46:18.680 --> 0:46:20.640 going to burn your skin, it's not going to injure 0:46:20.680 --> 0:46:24.600 your hand, Apparently in that condition, people report less emotional 0:46:24.719 --> 0:46:28.160 experience of pain. So, according to this example, you can 0:46:28.360 --> 0:46:32.120 use verbal cues. You can use information that you recognize 0:46:32.200 --> 0:46:37.000 cognitively to regulate your own pain response. And so, if 0:46:37.040 --> 0:46:39.080 you have more reason to worry that you may be 0:46:39.320 --> 0:46:43.440 injured by this thing that feels uncomfortable, then it actually 0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:46.680 hurts more. If you're assured that you won't be injured, 0:46:46.800 --> 0:46:49.239 it hurts less. And then on top of this, heart 0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:52.280 identifies a couple of other inputs on the subjective experience 0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:56.160 of pain. One I thought was interesting was the idea 0:46:56.200 --> 0:46:58.960 of the locus of control um so. The locus of 0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:02.759 control is a term used in psychology to explain whether 0:47:02.880 --> 0:47:04.960 or not you feel like you are the agent in 0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:08.279 control of a situation. Do you have the ability to 0:47:08.480 --> 0:47:12.560 decide whether this pain stops or not? Uh so? One 0:47:12.680 --> 0:47:16.560 one good example would be, uh say, voluntarily grabbing a 0:47:16.680 --> 0:47:18.759 hot dish out of the oven with only a thin 0:47:18.920 --> 0:47:22.000 towel to protect your hand. That might be briefly painful, 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:24.320 but then you, you know, put it down. I'm not 0:47:24.480 --> 0:47:27.600 recommending people do that, by the way, but but you know, 0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:29.680 so that that would be a thing that you decided 0:47:29.760 --> 0:47:33.000 to do and you control when it stops, versus having 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:36.879 somebody say, press your hand against your will against something 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:41.759 that's equivalently hot. Heart argues that the impression of helplessness 0:47:41.800 --> 0:47:45.800 would actually increase the experience of pain in the second scenario, 0:47:47.640 --> 0:47:49.360 And it is kind of interesting to apply that to 0:47:49.640 --> 0:47:52.040 Paul's situation because on one hand, he can stop the 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:54.400 pain the second he pulls his own hand out, but 0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:57.960 he's being held you know, hostage essentially here. You know, 0:47:58.000 --> 0:48:00.160 it's like there's a there's an inherent threat that you 0:48:00.200 --> 0:48:04.359 will die if you if you pull that hand out. So, yeah, 0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:08.160 it's interesting, right, He's not being physically prevented from removing 0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:10.840 his hand, but he, I mean, he does have the knowledge, 0:48:11.000 --> 0:48:14.480 he has cognitive awareness that he that the consequences will 0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:16.520 be dire if he does remove his hands, so he 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:20.800 has to internally self regulate. Uh, yeah, that's weird. I 0:48:20.800 --> 0:48:22.600 don't know. Where you would put the locusts of control 0:48:22.640 --> 0:48:25.600 in that situation. Yeah, I guess that's that's very much 0:48:25.600 --> 0:48:29.840 a ben Adjestent trick, right, obscuring the locusts of control. 0:48:30.360 --> 0:48:32.560 That's kind of the thing. Yeah, right, Is it with 0:48:32.680 --> 0:48:34.440 him or is it with her? It's kind of hard 0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:37.520 to say. There and then another input that hard identifies 0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:40.640 his attention. So she says, if if something urgently demands 0:48:40.680 --> 0:48:43.640 your attention, the brain is usually going to find a 0:48:43.680 --> 0:48:47.720 way to at least partially ignore pain until the important 0:48:47.760 --> 0:48:50.480 business is taken care of. Again, I think we all 0:48:50.560 --> 0:48:53.640 know this from experience, that you can be really injured, 0:48:53.680 --> 0:48:56.600 but you're right in the middle of something incredibly important, 0:48:56.719 --> 0:49:00.520 and then it's once that task is done it suddenly 0:49:00.640 --> 0:49:03.279 how you realize how much it hurts. Yeah, And you 0:49:03.320 --> 0:49:05.680 see plenty of examples of this, like in the sports world, 0:49:05.800 --> 0:49:09.960 where somebody suffers an injury, but then they keep going, 0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:13.640 they press on um and they can in that moment, 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:16.520 but in some cases they end up doing more damage. Uh, 0:49:16.880 --> 0:49:19.239 and then they feel the effects later. Right, And that 0:49:19.320 --> 0:49:21.520 might not even be deliberate like that. Yeah, you might 0:49:21.560 --> 0:49:25.560 not even be aware that you're actually hurt until yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:28.400 one more example that Heart site says, a piece of 0:49:28.440 --> 0:49:32.760 evidence for how pain to a large extent is something 0:49:32.840 --> 0:49:35.320 that happens within the brain as opposed to something that 0:49:35.400 --> 0:49:38.720 happens actually at the site of injury is the idea 0:49:38.760 --> 0:49:41.480 of phantom limb pain. So of course this is you know, 0:49:42.120 --> 0:49:43.960 this would be pain that is felt in a missing 0:49:44.040 --> 0:49:47.640 limb after that limb has been lost or amputated. And 0:49:47.800 --> 0:49:49.800 the interesting thing here is that this is pain not 0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:53.360 only in the absence of actual ongoing tissue injury, but 0:49:53.520 --> 0:49:57.680 pain in the absence of actual tissue. Heart rights quote. 0:49:58.120 --> 0:50:00.560 These pains were originally thought to be the result of 0:50:00.840 --> 0:50:04.640 trauma to the severed nerves of the stump, but attempts 0:50:04.680 --> 0:50:08.439 to treat by a second nerve sparing amputation frequently made 0:50:08.480 --> 0:50:12.280 them worse. The more extreme surgery of severing the sensory 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:15.480 nerves at the spinal cord also proved to be ineffective 0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:19.400 in most cases. So Heart argues that whatever the source 0:50:19.480 --> 0:50:22.160 of pain in the body, the experience of pain, the 0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:26.920 subjective experience, largely happens in the brain. And this is 0:50:26.960 --> 0:50:29.600 why I think in some cases it's it's plausible to 0:50:29.920 --> 0:50:33.359 imagine how the experience of pain could be regulated up 0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:37.239 or down by various types of you know, other mental stimulation, 0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:42.520 apart from just stuff happening to your hand inside the box. Now, 0:50:42.600 --> 0:50:45.160 another big thing she gets into in the in this 0:50:45.400 --> 0:50:48.239 essay is what could actually be happening in the box, Like, 0:50:48.400 --> 0:50:50.400 you know, if the if the box is in a 0:50:50.520 --> 0:50:54.360 sense causing the pain, what are some plausible technologies? And 0:50:54.400 --> 0:50:57.000 I don't think she really lands on anything very solid here, 0:50:57.160 --> 0:51:00.200 I mean, and admittedly she talks about how like, uh, 0:51:00.360 --> 0:51:02.399 you know, we we we don't really know what could 0:51:02.440 --> 0:51:05.800 cause this kind of pain without any actual injury to tissues. 0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:09.760 She talks about some rumors of Pentagon interest in different 0:51:09.800 --> 0:51:13.640 types of UH technology is known as active denial systems. 0:51:13.760 --> 0:51:16.239 These would be things that supposedly a you know, a 0:51:16.320 --> 0:51:19.560 police force or military would use to disperse crowds by 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:25.080 inflicting pain without tissue damage on them through supposed mechanisms 0:51:25.200 --> 0:51:29.200 like you know, beams of microwaves or fimtosecond lasers. But 0:51:29.280 --> 0:51:31.960 I think she rightly points out that in reality these 0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:34.160 things would be not only painful, but if you were 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:37.680 repeatedly subjected to them, they probably would actually cause injury. 0:51:37.680 --> 0:51:41.080 They would cause burns, right, and I and since this this, 0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:43.120 uh this has been published, I mean, I think we've 0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:45.879 seen more and more evidence for that based on uh, 0:51:46.320 --> 0:51:50.160 some of the possible uses of this technology in the world. 0:51:50.560 --> 0:51:54.480 It's weird remembering some of the uh, the press these 0:51:54.560 --> 0:51:56.520 things were getting back in the day. You know, it 0:51:56.680 --> 0:51:59.600 was like, oh, it's so nice that it doesn't cause injury, 0:51:59.840 --> 0:52:02.920 but somebody is even if that were true, what they're 0:52:02.960 --> 0:52:06.200 saying is I created a pain gun. Yeah yeah, yeah, 0:52:06.280 --> 0:52:09.279 Like that's a pain gun that leaves no mark. Like 0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:12.800 that's your your best possible scenario based on some of 0:52:12.880 --> 0:52:16.640 those uh those those those early articles and whatnot. But 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:19.440 one idea that Heart gets into towards the end of 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:22.960 her essay, which I thought was very interesting, is the 0:52:23.080 --> 0:52:27.680 suggestion that ultimately the pain caused by the the gom 0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:31.200 Jabbar test is not actually from the box, Like what 0:52:31.320 --> 0:52:34.800 if the box doesn't do anything, but the pain is 0:52:35.000 --> 0:52:38.279 from the Reverend Mother herself. And I think the book 0:52:38.400 --> 0:52:42.320 actually gives us reason to suspect this, Like when Paul 0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:45.759 re encounters the Reverend Mother again later in the book, 0:52:45.840 --> 0:52:47.600 he's like, I'm not going to fall for your tricks 0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:51.080 this time, suggesting that Paul believes that it was actually 0:52:51.239 --> 0:52:53.600 her causing the pain in his hand and not and 0:52:53.719 --> 0:52:57.400 not the technology whatever that was inside the box. And 0:52:57.560 --> 0:53:00.919 here the idea would be that you along the lines 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:03.359 of the other stuff we learn about the Bennie Jesser, 0:53:03.440 --> 0:53:06.319 it's that they have these special powers of hypnosis. They 0:53:06.360 --> 0:53:09.600 specialize again in politics, which ultimately is, you know, the 0:53:09.719 --> 0:53:14.799 science of manipulating people and influencing them. Yeah, I mean, uh, 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:16.480 to a certain extent. You can see, you can look 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:19.120 around in the world around you, and it's like politics 0:53:19.239 --> 0:53:23.080 is often about manipulating your perception of pain points. Uh. 0:53:23.280 --> 0:53:26.879 So it makes sense that they're they're good at this. Yeah, yeah, 0:53:26.960 --> 0:53:30.520 even even in the mundane sense. But but so ultimately 0:53:30.600 --> 0:53:33.279 I thought this was kind of interesting because there is 0:53:33.440 --> 0:53:35.800 some real research linking. So, you know, one of the 0:53:35.880 --> 0:53:37.680 things that says that the Bennie Jesser It's due in 0:53:37.719 --> 0:53:41.480 this regard is they have hypnosis techniques. Uh. And so 0:53:41.719 --> 0:53:44.920 there is actually some research in the real world showing 0:53:45.000 --> 0:53:49.520 that hypnosis, at least for people who are susceptible to hypnosis, 0:53:49.600 --> 0:53:53.080 and not everybody is, but for people who are susceptible, 0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:57.200 hypnosis can in many cases be shown to be effective 0:53:57.440 --> 0:54:01.320 at a pain relief in in both onic and acute conditions. 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:03.680 If you want to read more about this, there was 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:07.000 there was a press release summarizing a bunch of existing 0:54:07.080 --> 0:54:10.000 research from the year two thousand four put out by 0:54:10.040 --> 0:54:13.600 the American Psychological Association called Hypnosis for the Relief and 0:54:13.719 --> 0:54:17.040 Control of Pain. Uh. Now, I think there would be. 0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:21.399 I think the effects we're talking about here, uh would 0:54:21.400 --> 0:54:23.759 be much more modest than what is imagined in this 0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:26.640 science fiction scenario, like, you know, making somebody think that 0:54:26.680 --> 0:54:29.200 their hand is literally on fire burning down to a 0:54:29.239 --> 0:54:32.200 piece of ash. Um. I think this would be more 0:54:32.280 --> 0:54:35.799 along the lines of four people who are susceptible to hypnosis. 0:54:36.280 --> 0:54:40.200 It might have some mitigating effect on sensations of pain, 0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:43.640 but not like a totally mitigating effect. And of course 0:54:43.680 --> 0:54:46.480 the evil corollary of that would be that if you 0:54:46.600 --> 0:54:49.960 can deaden people's sensitivity to pain through hypnosis, you could 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:52.680 probably increase it as well, though that would be much 0:54:52.760 --> 0:54:56.080 less ethical to study, at least in context beyond you know, 0:54:56.280 --> 0:54:59.719 the relatively mild forms of pain people experience, would say, 0:54:59.719 --> 0:55:03.520 a hand pludged into a bucket of ice water. I 0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:06.920 have to say that. Um. I think another a bit 0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:08.840 of evidence that kind of supports the idea that the 0:55:09.120 --> 0:55:12.200 box is not generating the pain is that the box 0:55:12.280 --> 0:55:15.600 doesn't have a proper name. And and Herbert was not 0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:18.680 shy about giving uh, you know, throwing out names and 0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:20.960 terminology in in the book. I mean, there's a whole 0:55:21.000 --> 0:55:23.320 dictionary in the back of the novel, uh, you know, 0:55:23.760 --> 0:55:26.480 letting you know what these various things are. Uh. The 0:55:26.600 --> 0:55:29.120 needle at at Paul's neck has a name, but the 0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:33.799 box is just referred to informally as the as a box. Right, 0:55:33.920 --> 0:55:37.560 that's a good point. I In fact, I'm I totally agree. 0:55:37.760 --> 0:55:41.040 If the box were they were they efficacious agent here, 0:55:41.280 --> 0:55:43.320 the box would have its own name. I feel like 0:55:43.360 --> 0:55:47.839 I know Herbert's brain well enough to know that. All Right, Well, 0:55:48.280 --> 0:55:50.120 at this point, we realize it's time for us to 0:55:50.200 --> 0:55:53.359 take our hands out of the box. Uh, We're we're 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:55.359 out of time for this episode of stuff to blow 0:55:55.360 --> 0:55:56.960 your mind. But we're gonna be back in the next 0:55:57.040 --> 0:55:59.800 episode with a continuation of this discussion. We're going to 0:55:59.880 --> 0:56:03.080 keep talking about the benegescriates. Um, We're going to talk 0:56:03.120 --> 0:56:06.279 about getting into back into that idea of politics and 0:56:06.360 --> 0:56:08.720 what that means and if who knows we may discuss 0:56:08.800 --> 0:56:11.920 some other topics in the Dune universe as well. That 0:56:12.120 --> 0:56:14.759 cold open reading, by the way, is of course from 0:56:14.840 --> 0:56:19.080 Frank Herbert's Dune and Annie Reese, co host of Stuff 0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:22.719 Mom Never Told You and Savor, was nice enough to 0:56:23.360 --> 0:56:26.360 record that for us, so thanks Annie. In the meantime, 0:56:26.360 --> 0:56:28.400 if you like to check out other episodes of Stuff 0:56:28.480 --> 0:56:29.840 to Blow Your Mind, you can find them in the 0:56:29.840 --> 0:56:32.880 Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed which is found 0:56:33.000 --> 0:56:36.280 anywhere you get your podcast. Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 0:56:36.640 --> 0:56:40.360 listener Mail on Monday, Artifact on Wednesday, and on Fridays, 0:56:40.400 --> 0:56:42.040 we do Weird how Cinema. That's our time to just 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:45.000 set aside most of the serious matters and just discuss 0:56:45.040 --> 0:56:47.760 a strange film. Huge thanks as always to our excellent 0:56:47.800 --> 0:56:50.840 audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:53.240 get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 0:56:53.320 --> 0:56:55.600 or any other to suggest a topic for the future, 0:56:55.760 --> 0:56:58.360 just to say hello, you can email us at contact 0:56:58.480 --> 0:57:08.799 at Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Stuff to Blow Your 0:57:08.840 --> 0:57:11.760 Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts 0:57:11.800 --> 0:57:13.879 for my heart Radio, this is the i Heart Radio app, 0:57:14.040 --> 0:57:16.760 Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows