1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You've heard of animals chewing awful leg to escape a trap. 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,479 Speaker 1: There's an animal kind of trick. A human would remain 3 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind. 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: Once men turned their thinking over to machines and hopes 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: that this would set them free, but that only permitted 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: other men with machines to enslave them. The Great Revolt 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: took away a crutch. It forced human minds to develop. 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: Schools were started to train human talents. Welcome to stot 10 00:00:52,200 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, a production of My Heart Radio. Hey, 11 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is 12 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert. I know, 13 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: ever since that New Done movie came out, you have 14 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: been just itching to do another Science of Done episode 15 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: like the ones we did a few years back. But 16 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: obviously that happened right in the middle of October when 17 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: we had a bunch of other stuff planned. So it 18 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: seems like today is the day the spillover from October 19 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: is continuing yet again. Uh yeah, and I mean in 20 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: a way, it's a spillover from the October from before 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,919 Speaker 1: last that the original release date for the new Done adaptation. 22 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're right. Yeah. So yeah, we, like 23 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people have been have been really hungry 24 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: for this film to come out, um, because I knew 25 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: it would also just in general reignite, uh my fascination 26 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: with the Done universe, um, and you know, introduced new 27 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: people to the Done universe. Um. And of course to 28 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: correspond with that, we would need to go back in 29 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: and do some new Dooe episodes um, because like you said, 30 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: we did a few, or we did a couple years ago, um, 31 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: and now we're dipping back in. I think that was 32 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: my first or second year on the show, so it 33 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: was a long time ago now, yeah, yeah, it was 34 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,959 Speaker 1: quite a while. And and since then we've had people 35 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: fairly frequently right in and say, oh, you should do 36 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: some more of those. We'd like to hear more of those. 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: So well, here you go. You asked for it, You're 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: gonna get it. Um. I think uh, I think I 39 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: think we may be doing a couple of episodes here, 40 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: but I thought we'd start with the ben and ingestre 41 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: it um with a with a particular focus on the 42 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: gom Jabbar awareness test. So this is a pivotal early 43 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: scene in the book, and it's also a memorable sequence 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: from all three adaptations. Um that it's it's one of 45 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: those things where it occurs so early in the novel 46 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: that even if you try to read Doone and didn't 47 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: finish it, you probably read this part because it happens 48 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: almost immediately. I I read this scene several times before 49 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: I actually made it all the way through the book. 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: I don't remember if I mentioned this on the show before, 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: but when I first tried to read the book, I 52 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: think one of the big problems as I was reading 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: a really bad paperback copy with extremely tiny print and 54 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: small margins. Have you come across this this mass printing. Oh, 55 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: it's like a it's on microfilm and it has a 56 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: little magnifier that comes out of the spine. Yes, it's 57 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: the Orange Catholic Bible version. It's not very fun to read. Uh, 58 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: And so I never actually completed the book until I 59 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: got like a more readable physical copy. Well that makes sense, 60 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: that makes sense. But so I remember this scene quite 61 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: well because I've been through it a number of times. Well. Um, 62 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: but before we're going further though, I want to drive 63 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: home a few different points here. So, first of all, 64 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: as much as possible, we're focusing on the first book 65 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: and its adaptations, uh, the stuff that most people are 66 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: gonna be familiar with, So we're we're gonna try not to, 67 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: for the most part, go too deep and get into 68 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: territory that that casual dune enthusiasts will not understand. Also 69 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: along those lines, we have to stress that we are 70 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: not done experts, we are not lower masters, um. As 71 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: much as we we like uh the world here, I um, 72 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: I believe. Let's say you've only read the first novel, correct, 73 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: and I've it's been a while since I've read the others. 74 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm actually diving back in right now. So basically what 75 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: I'm saying is we may get something wrong, we may 76 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: misinterpret something in the books, and if that happens, well, 77 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, right in we're happy to be corrected. Now. 78 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: Another thing I want to stress here is that I 79 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: have not read Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's prequel 80 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: and sequel books, so I can't speak to any lower 81 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: choices made in those books. Uh. I'd love to hear 82 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: from anyone who has read them as it relates to 83 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: what we're discussing here. Um, and I'm all for folks 84 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: enjoying these books, but again, uh, they're not something I 85 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: have read. I should also point out that I'm gonna 86 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: probably reference the nineteen four Dune Encyclopedia a little bit. 87 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: This is one of my most treasured books. I I 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: fondly remember reading a very ragged copy of it in 89 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: the library when I was a kid. Um, and I'm 90 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,239 Speaker 1: not I think I could check it out. It wasn't. 91 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: They didn't classify it as a reference so you could 92 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: check this book out. And I spent a lot of 93 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: time reading through through that and I somehow picked a 94 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: copy up for like twenty bucks several years ago. It 95 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: goes for crazy amounts on eBay. Now. But wait, which 96 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: library was this? What? What library had a copy of 97 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: the Dune Encyclopedia. It was just a small town Tennessee library. Yeah, wow, 98 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 1: they just had it. And um, you know, I mean, 99 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: Dun's popularity is widespread, so I guess it's not that 100 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: that's strange. But yeah, it was very ragged, and um, 101 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: I was very fond of it. And then he had 102 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: had to look up a copy of the years later. 103 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: It's it's long out of print. It's probably never going 104 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: to be in print again. Um. And it's also not 105 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: entirely cannon um, but I refer to it anyway because 106 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: it's awesome. It was it was an approved work at 107 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: the time with an encouraging intro from Frank Herbert UM. 108 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: But it was written by various other authors. But if 109 00:05:58,040 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: you had a chance to look through it, um, you know, 110 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: grant grab it because it has recipes, it has wonderful illustrations, 111 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: it has all of this additional background info. It seems 112 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: this is just me looking in for the most part 113 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: from the outside, but it seems like as a whole. 114 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 1: With like with Doune Lore, you basically have like three 115 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: different tiers. They're the original Herbert novels, the Frank Herbert novels. 116 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: There's there's the lore of the Dune encyclopedia, and then 117 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: there's the additional um arm of it that is created 118 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: by by his son Brian Herbert and his novels sequel 119 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: in prequel novels. Oh no, So, now that there's a 120 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: big release of Dune by I guess it's by a 121 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: subsidiary of Warner Brothers. Is that right? Are we gonna 122 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: get a situation like Star Wars? Where now canon is 123 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: being decided by the media corporation that owns the rights 124 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: to the Dune movie. Um, I don't think so, because 125 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of a I think there's a 126 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: certain amount of control held by um by Brian Herbert. 127 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: If I'm not okay, if I'm not mistaken, Um I 128 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: don't so. I don't know exactly how it's how it's 129 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 1: gonna work out, but I don't think it's quite at 130 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: the like the Disney level where you have like a 131 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: council that decides on on matters, but I have I 132 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: think the plan still is that we're going to get 133 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: a Binny jesser At television series, so that's going to 134 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: be interesting. Yeah, But what I want to know is, like, 135 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: is the Doinge Encyclopedia's recipe for spice melange omelets going 136 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: to be you know, B canon or ccnon or what's 137 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: the Oh yeah, yeah, that that the the pre Disney 138 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: Lucas you know, multi tiered classification system. Uh yeah, that's 139 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: pre Disney. Sorry, I can't keep I think Disney came 140 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: in and simplified matters to a certain extent, so I 141 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: don't think there as many classifications. But um so I 142 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: don't know, who knows what will happen with Done if 143 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: Done can, that's assuming like Done has like real staying 144 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: power is a mainstream commodity. I hope it does. I 145 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: hope that that we see at least through Doing Messiah 146 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: with this this current slate of films. Oh, I guess 147 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: I hadn't said, by the way, but I finally did 148 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: see the new movie and it's absolutely marvelous, just amazing, excellently. Yeah, well, 149 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: we'll have to to chat more and more about that. 150 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: Um So, so let's go ahead and just talk a 151 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: little bit about the background of the Benigester, like who 152 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: are the Benigesta and how they feature into the world 153 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: of Dune. Um you know, so for many of you, 154 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: this is going to be just stuff you already know. 155 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: Others you might be a little foggy on some of 156 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: the details. And I don't know if if you've only 157 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: watched the film, maybe you picked up on most of this, 158 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: but maybe not all of it. So Dune takes place 159 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: in the distant future. Humans have spread out from Old 160 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: Earth and they've inhabited various worlds. While they encounter native 161 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: organisms on these planets, including the mighty sandworms, of Iracus, 162 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,359 Speaker 1: they do not encounter other intelligent life forms. So subsequently 163 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: there are there are no intelligent life forms in the 164 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: Dune Universe that are not human or at least human derived. 165 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: By the later works, Old Earth is said to be gone, 166 00:08:55,880 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: and we just have this vast diaspora of human colonized worlds. 167 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: All right, So there's a big interplanetary empire spans a 168 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: big chunk of the galaxy, but it is not populated 169 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: by all different types of intelligent aliens like say the 170 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: Star Wars universe, is right, and so that's something that 171 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: definitely makes it stand apart from some of these other, um, 172 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: you know, sci fi franchises. Now, I suppose that's like 173 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 1: the first big historical point in the Dune Universe is 174 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: people left Earth and started colonizing other worlds. But the 175 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: other big one, uh, and this one, you know, sets 176 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,719 Speaker 1: it apart from from from a number of sci fi 177 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 1: visions as well, is that you have this thing called 178 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: the Butlerian Jihad, in which these spacefaring humans rebelled against 179 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: their alliance on so called thinking machines, on computers and 180 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: conscious AI and and also more subtly, uh, you know, 181 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: it's implied against a machine way of thinking. Yeah, and 182 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: so this gives rise to one of the most unique 183 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: things about the sci fi setting of Dune. It is 184 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: a space faring science fiction saga without computers in it, 185 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: or I mean mostly without computers. Instead, computing tasks in 186 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: the Done universe are done by humans who specially train 187 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: their brains to do the kinds of things computers would 188 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: normally have to do. So you have figures like the 189 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: Men Tats, you know, sort of human computers, or the 190 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: the Guild Navigators who would do what a computer would 191 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: do in most other sci fi right. Yeah, so they're 192 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: all obeying these various edicts like thou shalt not create 193 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: a machine and the likeness of a human mind, or 194 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: thou shalt not disfigure the soul. Uh. There's a great 195 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: quote in the appendix to doone um to the novel 196 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: that says, then came the Butlet and Jahad, two generations 197 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 1: of chaos. The god of machine logic was overthrown among 198 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: the masses, and a new concept raised. Man may not 199 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 1: be replaced. And I know we've talked about this before, 200 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: but I always thought that that's an interesting touch, the 201 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: idea that, uh, that it's not just like the war 202 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: with the machines imagined in say the Terminator films, where 203 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: it's well, the machines wanted to destroy us, so we 204 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: fought against them. There is more of a suggestion of 205 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: kind of subtle psychological revolt and in more complexity to 206 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: the conflict between humans and thinking machines that a lot 207 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: of the conflict seems to have been rooted in human 208 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: resentment of what the thinking machines represented within human culture. Yeah, yeah, 209 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: And I always liked how that idea seemed to have 210 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: been given room to breathe. You know. Um, it's not 211 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: like here's here's blow by blow what happened during the 212 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: Balerian Jahade. Here's sort of forced to, uh, to imagine 213 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: what it might have consisted of. Yeah, it happened like 214 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 1: ten thousand years ago and is now the basis of 215 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: of major religions of the of the Empire in Dune. Now. 216 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: The Butalian Jahade is said to have lasted from the 217 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: year two hundred big to the year one oh eight 218 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: b G. And I know some of you are saying, well, 219 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: what what is b G? What does this mean? This 220 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: means before guild, which leads to the next point without yeah, 221 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: without thinking machines. Humans have to turn largely inward in 222 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: order to manage this interstellar civilization. And without thinking machines 223 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: to augment human cognition, they had to enhance human cognition itself. 224 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: And this, believe brings us to these different classes of 225 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: of humans and human factions. So we have the Spacing Guild. 226 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: We're told it's a mental physical training school aimed at 227 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: developing humans capable of handling space travel, particularly the dangerous 228 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 1: navigation of hyperspace that was key to interstellar travel. And 229 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: this is actually where you know, if you know anything 230 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: about doing, you've probably heard the phrase the spice must flow. 231 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: You know that it has something to do with a 232 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: brutal contest for a natural resource known as spice and 233 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: uh the rule. And so I think a lot of 234 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 1: people have, you know, critics have compared spice to oil, 235 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 1: say in the real world, saying that it's this all 236 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: important natural resource that makes basically everything in the economy possible. 237 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: It makes uh, it makes travel possible, it makes delivery 238 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: of goods and services possible. And that is largely the 239 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: case in June, but not by being an energy source 240 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: that powers spaceships, but rather, the spice is a drug 241 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: that makes the navigation of space by human minds possible. 242 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, would telling that it. It basically allows 243 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: members of the Space and Guild and navigators in particular, 244 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: to see possible futures, to see just a little bit 245 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: into the future, so that they can avoid all the 246 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: various disasters that are can occur during this, uh, this 247 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: sort of space travel. Yeah, so like you, you take 248 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: the spice and then you can kind of hallucinate fractal 249 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: mathematics that allow you to to to see enough into 250 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: the future or or see possible futures well enough that 251 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: you can navigate the harsh terrain of outer space or 252 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: folded space in particular. I'm not sure exactly what that means, 253 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: but it's it's how they travel between the stars, right. 254 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: And then, like we mentioned o theire, they're also the 255 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: mint ats, the humans bred and trained to act in 256 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: the place of computers and thinking machines, uh, kind of 257 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: futuristics of its capable of carrying out really advanced computations 258 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: in their head and also I guess just carrying around 259 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: a lot of information. Yeah, you might see them as 260 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: a kind of advisor or concigliary who has an internal 261 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: computer within their brain, right, I have to say, I 262 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: like in the new film how they they had a 263 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: mentat's sort of rolling their eyes back in their head 264 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: while computing things. This is kind of a nice visual touch, 265 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: I can. I think that's one of the challenges of 266 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: any of these adaptations of of Done is that there's 267 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: a lot of written material that you either have to 268 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, just commit to including a lot of narration 269 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: and added dialogue about what they are and how they operate, 270 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: or you need to find and focus on ways to 271 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: visually represent them. And uh, and I think all the 272 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: films have have succeeded to varying degrees in that, you know, 273 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: like these these characters look like that. They all look 274 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: like this, they all have this hairstyle or lack of hairstyle. 275 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: I mean, this is I think always going to be. 276 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: One of the real difficult cult is in adapting Dune 277 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: like a lot. I mean, Dune is not unique in 278 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: this regard. A lot of great science fiction and fantasy works. 279 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: The real pleasure in them is in the world that 280 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,239 Speaker 1: they established. It's like a really richly imagined, an interesting 281 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: alternate world. So a lot of the pleasure of the 282 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: story comes in getting a lot of that rich detail 283 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: about the world. But how do you, Yeah, how do 284 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: you cram that into a narrative? How do you put 285 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: that on screen without just like explaining it. You could 286 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: have a narrator just telling the audience a bunch of stuff, 287 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: but that can get really tedious. So how do you 288 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: do it? And I think again, the new movie, I 289 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: think mostly navigates this really well. It finds good, succinct 290 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: ways to communicate some of these rich, strange details of 291 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: the situation. Yeah, it's seen that way to me as well. Though, 292 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear from anyone out there who just 293 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: went into this cult um, because I've only heard like 294 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: one secondhand account of this where someone who's you know, 295 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: they thought the baron was the emperor sort of a thing. Like, So, 296 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if that's like a common misconception based on 297 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: not knowing what to expect, or um, if that's you know, 298 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: just something that this individual had. Well, I mean, that 299 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: could be a totally fair criticism. If you go in 300 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: unfamiliar i mean, the Dune world, I think this problem 301 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: is going to be sort of inevitable, Like the dune world. 302 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: It's just a lot. There's a lot of detail. It's 303 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: very complicated. If you're going to tell the story in 304 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: the kind of rich way that that makes it come alive, 305 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: a lot of that detail is going to be in there, 306 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: and so it can be easy to miss things. Thank you, 307 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: thank you. All right, Well let's come back to the 308 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: Bennie Jesser. So, the Beni Jessri are related to these 309 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: other groups, but they untill they predate both of them. Uh. 310 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: They so they expanded with humanity across the stars and 311 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: the whole time, they're kind of working in the shadows, 312 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: functioning in many cases like a shadow government and behind 313 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: the guise of a semi mystical organization. They're a mostly 314 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: female organization who are particularly adept at manipulating religious culture. Uh. 315 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: They have seemed to have abilities related to mind control 316 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: and hypnosis. They have intense physical and mental conditioning that 317 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: make them really potent operatives and combatants. So you know, 318 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: they can really hold their own and we see them 319 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: do that in the movie, of course, um at least 320 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: in what we see Jessica Paul's mom to actually is 321 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 1: of course a Bennie jess It. They also make use 322 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: of spice themselves to sort of enhance these talents, and 323 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: we're also told they're aided by a kind of union 324 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: collective on consciousness. One thing I think is interesting about 325 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: the Bennie Jesser it is they exist within the Dune 326 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: universe kind of at the boundary of of hard science 327 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: fiction and fantasy, because there's a lot that they do 328 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: that seems right on the border of is this magic, right, Like, 329 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: Dune doesn't include overt magic, you know, you don't have 330 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: people who are majors or casting spells or anything. But 331 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: the Bennie Jesser in particular, can do a lot of 332 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: things that it is assumed that there is no magic involved, 333 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: and they are working by just some kind of obscure 334 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: physical mechanism, but you might not understand what that mechanism is, right, 335 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: And they guard their secrets too, But this also leads 336 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: to their critics saying, oh, well, they're a bunch of wages. 337 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: That's witchcraft what they're doing now. One of their big 338 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: games in the in the books, of course, is especially 339 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: the first book, is the selective breeding of the Quisots 340 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: hot iraq Uh not a mirror men tab but a 341 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: kind of super men tab they want to make essentially 342 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: a living some supercomputer, uh quote, one who can be 343 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: many places at once. And Herbert explains uh quote, in 344 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental 345 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: powers permitting him to understand and use higher ordered dimensions. 346 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: And this fits into a very complicated power seeking plot 347 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: that they have about essentially trying to create a galactic Messiah. Right. So, um, 348 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: I guess in short, the benidgester, I mean, you say 349 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: all these things out loud in a quick summary, it's 350 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: it's it's an awful lot um uh, you know, in 351 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: terms of like, you know, you're gonna fit this faction 352 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: into a movie along with all these other interesting factions 353 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: and families and so forth, and not to mention the 354 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: various technologies and organisms, um, you know, all all all 355 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: the more credit to any of these adaptations that have 356 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: pulled that off. Uh. They have a lot of tricks 357 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: up their sleeve, many of which might seem like witchcraft 358 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: of the casual observer. But we're gonna come back to that. 359 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: That that first big one that we see the sort 360 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: of our in our real introduction to the Benegestrate is 361 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: of course the gom Jabbar awareness test. All right, this 362 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: is the scene we were talking about right at the 363 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: beginning of the novel that I've read multiple times. Yeah, 364 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: I even read up to around this part to my son, 365 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: thinking like I picked up soon after many years, and 366 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: maybe it's maybe he'd like it. Uh, And we got 367 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: made about that fire and I was then I was reminded, oh, yeah, 368 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: this is maybe a little this is too dense for 369 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: him right now. You know, it will save this one 370 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: for later. But but yeah, it's a great scene, and 371 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: we're not gonna we're not gonna spend I guess too 372 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 1: much time explaining what happens. You know, beat I beat. 373 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: But but here are the basics. Quick note by the way, um, 374 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: we're probably gonna end up saying a tradees instead of 375 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: a trades. We're probably gonna if we get into the 376 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,239 Speaker 1: the the hearkenings Harkonan's, we're gonna mix those pronunciations up 377 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: as well. Um, there's of course kind of a back 378 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: and forth I guess about how you're supposed to say 379 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: these things. The main character of Dune is Paula Tradees. 380 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: I've always said a tradees. We. When we didn't add 381 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: for this movie, they were like no, you really need 382 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: to say a tray Eddies, which you said is apparently 383 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: how how Frank Herbert said it at some point, But 384 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. I've always heard of Tradees, That's how 385 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: I've always said it. Yeah, Herbert said a Treedes and 386 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: he said hearken. And but you know, I'm of the 387 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: mind too that ultimately these books live in our brains 388 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: and sometimes there's a pronunciation there that doesn't match up 389 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: with with reality, and it's just how it goes, all right. 390 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 1: So in this scene we have Paula Trayedes, the son 391 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: of Duke leto Trades, and he's there with Lady Jessica 392 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: Um a Binny sr Its sister installed in the Tradees 393 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: household Um as part of the breeding program, Jessica was 394 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: supposed to have a daughter who would then go on 395 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: to birth the Quizatts Hoderratch, but then she defied them 396 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: and had a son instead Um. And then that son, 397 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: of course, is Paul. And Paul has dreams and sometimes 398 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: those dreams come true. So the Benejesterate send Reverend Mother 399 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: Guias Helen Mahaam to test him. And Moham is not 400 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: only a high ranking Bena Jessriate. She is the Imperial 401 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: truth Sayer and probably one of the most dangerous humans 402 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: in this entire fictional galaxy. So she's like a mega 403 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: Bennie Jesterrich. She knows all the tricks, all the secret skills. 404 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: You do not want to get on her bad side, right, 405 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: And Charlotte Rampling did a great job, by the way, 406 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: I really hope her performance. Yeah, she's really good. So 407 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: what does she do? She conducts this gom jabbar awareness 408 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: test on Paul. He's told to place his hand into 409 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: a small, curious green box and then she holds this 410 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: like she has this little needle thing called the gone jibar. 411 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: She holds it to his neck. Uh. And here's the situation. 412 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: She lays it out. If you take your hand out 413 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: of this box, I'm gonna jab you in the neck 414 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 1: with this pointy thing. Um. The gone jibar here is 415 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: essentially a poison needle that will just absolutely kill you dead. 416 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: It contains a meta cyanide I think she says, yes, 417 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 1: meta cyanide, so you might be prepared for sanide, but 418 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: not meta cyanide um. The box so meta. The box 419 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: is far more subtle, though, So you stick your hand 420 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: in this box, and it will begin to tingle with sensation, 421 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: you know, like maybe you know, just some maybe eventually 422 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: an itching begins. But eventually, and rather quickly, this is 423 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: going to grow into an all consuming feeling of pain. 424 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: And generally speaking, I think people stick their hand in 425 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: the box, they just they imagine that their hand is 426 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: just on fire, just crumbling into ashes, and there eventually, 427 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: right it says, I think specifically that when when the 428 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: pain increases in intensity, Paul believes that his hand is 429 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: being charred away and just turned into a stump. Yeah. 430 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 1: So you know, Paul, Paul has a lot of questions 431 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: and he's maybe a little bold and asking them at times. 432 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: And during this this session, uh, he asked what's in 433 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: the box? And she's like, it's pain, pains in the box. 434 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: And he's like okay, and but she keeps on going. Um, 435 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: she says, you've heard of animals chewing off a leg 436 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: to escape a trap. There's an animal kind of trick. 437 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: A human would remain in the trap, endure the pain, 438 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove 439 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: a threat to his kind. Okay, So she's making a 440 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: distinction here about ways of responding to a threat, responding 441 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: with just sort of with with panic or with with strategy, right, 442 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: and Mahiam explains that this this is a testacy if 443 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: Paul is a human or an animal, and why when 444 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: Paul asked, why are you testing for humans? He replies 445 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: to set you free? And and then she goes back 446 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: to the whole butt Larry and Johada a bit and says, quote, 447 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: once men turned their thinking over the machines and hopes 448 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: that this would set them free, but that only for 449 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: men and other men with machines to enslave them. The 450 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: Great Revolt took away a crutch. It forced human minds 451 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: to develop. Schools were started to train human talents. And 452 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: from here she goes on to explain that the two 453 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: main schools to emerge from this ancient shift where the 454 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: Guild focusing on mathematics and the Benegesserate focusing on politics. 455 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: Now that word kind of rings strange in the context, 456 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: but I think I think it makes sense if you 457 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: work it out. Yeah, like to to reach this point 458 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, they're there there, which is their 459 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: psychic they have they have crazy technology, they they have 460 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,479 Speaker 1: martial arts, they're super into politics. That makes them sound like, oh, 461 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: oh my good god, what topic are they going to 462 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: insist on talking to me about? Um? Right, um it? Politics, 463 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: I think can sound a bit lame as the superpower 464 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: of the benagestrate, but yeah, we have to I think 465 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: we have to realize they're talking about politics here in 466 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: the grander scheming sense, and not a shake hands and 467 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: kiss babies sort of thing, or a um, you know, 468 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: the sort of politics that one sees on television every day. Yeah. Well, 469 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: I mean there are multiple ways in which that could 470 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: be misleading. I mean, one thing I think it's worth 471 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: noting is that when I hear the word politics, I 472 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: automatically tend to assume a kind of basically democratic electoral context, 473 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: where even when the word has negative connotations, those negative 474 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: connotations are against that background. So it might have to 475 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: do with people lying or misrepresenting their priorities, or engaging 476 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: in petty corruption, or putting their private interests above the 477 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: public interests, and so forth, all things that are bad, 478 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: but on a different frequency than the political situation of 479 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: the done universe. Because the political system of the done 480 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: universe is hard to describe succinctly, but I think could 481 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: best be seen as something like techno feudalism or maybe 482 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 1: sort of interplanetary fascist imperialism with it with a special 483 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: political difference to trade guilds. But whatever it is, it 484 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: is certainly not electoral democracy. It's not a good political situation. 485 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: So that the use of politics and the bien ejeserate since, 486 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: I think, should be understood as expertise in manipulating human 487 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: institutions and seeking power and authority within a ruthless, hierarchical empire. Yeah, 488 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: I think that sums it up pretty well. So this test, 489 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: this Gonjibar awareness test, we learn, is ultimately about giving 490 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 1: the proctor of this test the chance to see how 491 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: the individual reacts to intense stress, and in doing so 492 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 1: test them on their use of benajesterriate teachings, which Paul 493 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: had been instructed in by his mother. Mild spoiler, Paul 494 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: passes the test. He does not die like you know, 495 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: five minutes into the film. Good job, Paul. Now, at 496 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: this point I thought we might get into some explanations 497 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: for what's actually going on in this test, or supposed 498 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: to be going on in this test, how we might 499 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: interpret it. Um, you know, I guess in many respects, 500 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 1: the test is pretty simple. You know, you got a 501 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: needle with a drop of poison on it, You've got 502 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: this box. And Mahaim says that the secret of the 503 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: box is something lots of folks would love to have, 504 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, because clearly there there are plenty of bad 505 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: characters in the universe who would like to cause pain. Uh. 506 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: It's said to work via nerve inducers, creating a sensation 507 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: of intense you know, ultimately burning pain without actually causing 508 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: physical damage. Now, I mentioned the Dune Encyclopedia, and I 509 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: just want to point out that, interestingly, interestingly enough, it 510 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: does not really tap tackle this topic at all. It's 511 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: a book that goes all in on things like how 512 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: the molecular structure of milange might work, or exactly how 513 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: excon no rooms might function. But they pretty much left 514 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: the gone Jibar awareness test alone, which I was I 515 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: was kind of surprised that. I was like, there must 516 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: be a huge entry to this about this that I 517 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: just never read. That's interesting. But of course there was 518 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: an article about the gonjibar that got into some interesting 519 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: stuff in another book we've referenced. This one definitely came 520 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: up in our previous episodes. On the science of Dune, 521 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: and the book is actually called The Science of Dune, 522 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: published in two thousand and eight. It is edited by 523 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: Kevin R. Grazier, and there is a chapter on the 524 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: gom Jibar called The Black Hole of Pain by an 525 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: author named Carol Hart. This is still very much in print, 526 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: by the way, so if you're interested, you can definitely 527 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: grab a copy. Oh yeah, A lot of the essays 528 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: in this book are pretty interesting. Mostly what they do 529 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: is they take one of the concepts explained in Dune 530 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: and they talk about its situation within the Dune universe, 531 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: but then try to relate it to real world science 532 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: or sort of situate its uh, its role in the 533 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: narrative within the context of real world science. And so 534 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: that this essay by Carol Hart is all about the 535 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: gom Jabbar scene and UH and and how it relates 536 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: to some of the neuroscience of pain. So one of 537 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 1: the things she says at the beginning of this essay 538 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: is that, of course the hand is quote exquisitely sensitive 539 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: to painful and non painful stimuli. And I think we 540 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: all know this from experience. Generally, you know, the hands 541 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: are there's just so much more complexity of tactle feel 542 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: ling going on there, then there is in many other 543 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: parts of the body. I remember when I was a 544 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: kid and you would have to go to the doctor 545 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: and get a finger pricked um in order to give 546 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: a blood sample. I remember I used to think, why 547 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: can't they just like prick you on the back or 548 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: on the leg or something to get the blood sample, 549 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: because it seems like it's on the fingertip it hurts 550 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: almost more than it would just about anywhere else. I 551 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe some places I'm like, you know, the 552 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: face or a few other key points in the body 553 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: might might be as distressing, but the fingertip just it 554 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: seemed unnecessarily cruel to me. Yeah, I know exactly what 555 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: you're talking about. I I try to regularly give blood 556 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: at local blood drives, and um, you know, I I 557 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: don't want to stare at the needle in my arm. 558 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: Uh that's involved in the actual blood draw. But I 559 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: think if I had to choose, like, what is what's 560 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: my least favorite between the needle in my arm and 561 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: that that prick that they do just to test your blood. Initially, 562 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: it's always that that prick because it's just it's just 563 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: like this sudden punching, and there's this you know, the 564 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: sharp since the pain is very fleeting. Uh. And it's 565 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: not you know, it's not bad in terms of you know, 566 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: as far as all things go, but it is a 567 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: stark reminder of just how sensitive the fingers are. Yeah. 568 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: And I think there are multiple things going on here 569 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: with this exquisite sensitivity in the hands. I mean, one 570 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: thing is that the hands have to be very sensitive 571 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: in order to be dexterous. But there's also I believe, 572 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: a conceptual sensitivity in that you you realize that the 573 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: hands in a way are more fragile than than other 574 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: parts of the body. You know that, uh, that you 575 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: you need them to do all kinds of things. So 576 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: an injury to the finger will will limit the things 577 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: you can do more more so than an equivalent, say 578 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: prick or injury on like the thigh or the or 579 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: the back or something would. Yeah. Now, from here in 580 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: Heart's essay, she goes on to talk briefly about the 581 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: ways that pain pathways function within the body. What actually 582 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: happens when a pain sensation is triggered, say by an 583 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: injury to the hand. Uh. And so the first thing 584 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: she says is that most types of injury to the 585 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: hand will result in triggering more or less identical pain 586 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: sensing receptors in the in the nervous system called NO 587 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: susceptors pain sensors uh. And the one exception she cites 588 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: is certain kinds of like deep mechanical pressure or crushing pain. 589 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: But generally, she says, these NO susceptors are going to 590 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: detect injuries without much reference to discriminating it's it's type. So, 591 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: for example, while different receptors in in the tissues of 592 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: the hand will be able to tell the difference between 593 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: a range of warm and cool temperatures, extremes of heat 594 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,480 Speaker 1: or cold that would trigger these pain receptors, they just 595 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: register as undifferentiated pain and use the same neural pathways. 596 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: And so I thought that was kind of interesting. And 597 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: she uses that to tie into some of the ambiguity 598 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: of of what's going on with the box, because of 599 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: course Paul cannot see his hand in the box, and 600 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: he doesn't know what's happening to it. He just knows 601 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: something painful is happening. And so she uses this to 602 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: explain that the intense burning sensation he experiences could be 603 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: other things. It could that could include like extreme cold. Yeah, 604 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: I always always liked this. Uh, it's kind of a 605 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: model of an exploration of just pain in general, because, 606 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 1: as we've touched on before, there's always the sensation of pain, 607 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: but then there's the mental world of thinking about the pain, 608 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: worrying about the pain, interpreting the pain. And in this, 609 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: you know, Paul's hand is literally in a in a 610 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: green but you know black box where you can't actually 611 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: see what's going on in there. Well, it's actually both. 612 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: It's green on the outside, but then he says on 613 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: the inside, no light penetrates that. He says, it's like 614 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: a perfectly black interior that you can't see at all. Yeah. 615 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: But to review, like the sensations that the narrative says 616 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,719 Speaker 1: Paul experiences while his hand is in the box, uh, 617 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: it says, first he feels cold, and then he feels 618 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: slick metal, and this is presumably contact with the inside 619 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: of the box. One thing I don't know if you 620 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: remember this, but it's kind of range that the dimensions 621 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: of the box are said to be very small. I 622 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: think it's said to be fifteen centimeters to to a side, 623 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 1: which means that's like six inches I mean, I mean, 624 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: that's really small to get the hand in there. But anyway, 625 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: after this, it goes on to Paul saying that he 626 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: feels prickling, as if his hand were asleep. And then 627 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: this prickling turns into an itch, and then from an 628 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: itch it turns into burning, and then the burning just 629 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: increases and increases in intensity until it is excruciating. And 630 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: from here Carol Hart compares this to the sequence of 631 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: sensations when pain is usually felt from an injury to 632 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: the hands, such as burning or cutting. And there are 633 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: actually two different processes that go on here. I thought 634 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: this was kind of interesting. So the first one is 635 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: you get a very fast response that travels on what 636 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: she calls fast pain fibers. These are sometimes called type 637 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: three nerve fibers or a delta fibers and uh and 638 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: this response is is very quick, so this would be like, 639 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, a tenth of a second uh and and 640 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: it's also usually not experienced as like a miserable, ongoing experience. 641 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: It is a quick, sharp sensation, usually something that prompts 642 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: you to immediately withdraw your hand from the source of 643 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: the injury. And I think this is one of the 644 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 1: interesting things about pain when compared to other types of 645 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: sensory input, which is that in some cases at least, 646 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: pain is almost synonymous with the behavioral reaction to it. 647 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: So what I mean by that is, uh, you know 648 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: a lot of other types of sensory input, you need 649 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: to process them and then you know, judge your reaction 650 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: based on the situation. But if you if you say, 651 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: touch a hot stove or something, your hand is withdrawn 652 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: before you have even thought about it, and it's like 653 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: after your hand is off it, then you're like, oh wow, 654 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: what just happened? You know, you have to process it backwards, 655 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 1: which is interesting. I mean I can't really think of 656 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: much other sensory information that works that way. Just just 657 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 1: prompting absolutely immediate, unthinking response that you can only reflect 658 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: on backwards. Yeah, it is that that that that sharp, 659 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: intense message. I'll say, it's basically saying, finger is in 660 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: contact with something that is burning finger, remove finger from 661 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: said substance their object. You know, uh, immediate reaction. But 662 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: then Heart goes on to explain that there's a secondary 663 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: type of pain actually that that travels via a different 664 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: neural pathway. So this would be what she calls the 665 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,959 Speaker 1: slow pain fibers. These are also known as type four 666 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: or sea fibers, and this refers to the pathway from 667 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: the nerve endings in the tissue actually flowing all the 668 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: way up the spinal cord and connecting to the brain, 669 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 1: and these fibers, the slow pain fibers, they take longer 670 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: to get running. They need, she says, at least a 671 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: full second to get the message to the brain. And 672 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: then from here these turn into a more bill ding 673 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: persistent sensation. That is the pain we're usually thinking of 674 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: as as the the ongoing experience of pain when we've 675 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: been injured. So this might be a kind of burning 676 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: or aching pain that persists. It will usually grow gradually 677 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: worse over time. It often spreads out from the original 678 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: site of the injury, so you might have a cut 679 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: on the hand, but then you know by the time 680 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: it builds over the course of seconds or minutes that 681 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: you know the whole hand is aching. Is that there's 682 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: this radiating uh quality to it. And then also has 683 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: something to do with the immune system's inflammation response, which 684 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: is the sort of all purpose first responder two cellular 685 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: trauma and the body inflammation is of course also highly 686 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,399 Speaker 1: associated with pain and sensitivity to further stimuli causing even 687 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: greater pain. And so this transition from the initial fast 688 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 1: pain fibers to the slow pain fibers is what Heart 689 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: refers to as the double pain response. But there's another 690 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: way in which the information we get via the sea 691 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: fiber pathways, the slow pain pathways, how they differ from 692 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: other kinds of sensory input, and uh, and the and 693 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: the point that Heart makes is that, unlike many other 694 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: kinds of sensory input, they really persist with repeated exposure. 695 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: So you know, we've talked on the show before about 696 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: different types of neural desensitization to two inputs that you know, 697 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: if you just repeatedly get the same sense information over 698 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: and over again in an unchanging way, it very often 699 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: fades into the background of consciousness. It somehow becomes invisible. So, uh, 700 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: this can be common with smells in your environment. So 701 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: you know, when you first come around the paper mill, 702 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: you can really smell it, but over the course of 703 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: some amount of time, probably a matter of minutes, you 704 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: just kind of get used to it and then you 705 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: don't really notice that you smell it anymore. Yeah, or 706 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: like cooking smells another example of this. You know, you say, 707 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: cook a bunch of onions. You don't really notice how 708 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: this is affected they sent inside the house until you 709 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: step outside for a little bit and come back exactly. Yeah, 710 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: the same is true of sounds in your environment. So 711 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: environmental sounds, you know, the rain coming down outside or 712 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: the refrigerator humming. If it's just the same static sound 713 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 1: input for a long time, you will pretty quickly become 714 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: accustomed to it and not notice it anymore unless you, 715 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: you know, stop to look for it or something. And 716 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: of course the same is true with tactle sensations in 717 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 1: the body, which would be the most analogous to pain sensations. Uh. Pressure, 718 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: as long as it's not painful will will work in 719 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: this case. So the pressure, think about the pressure of 720 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: your clothes against your skin, or your feet against the 721 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,239 Speaker 1: floor or your butt against the chair. It all kind 722 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 1: of disappears from your consciousness after a few moments unless 723 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,800 Speaker 1: you either stop to think about it or it happens 724 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: to become uncomfortable. So all of these sensory stimuli tend 725 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: to fade away rather quickly. But sea fiber pain has 726 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 1: a sticky quality and consciousness. It often just keeps hurting 727 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: until something changes, either the painful stimulus is removed or 728 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: the swelling goes down or healing takes place. And in fact, 729 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: not only does it persist, it actually does exactly the 730 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: opposite in many cases. So you repeat the same sensory 731 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: input in terms of most sounds or smells and so forth, 732 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: and you will eventually become desensitized to them until they disappear. 733 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: But Heart notes that pain sensations are subject to this 734 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,840 Speaker 1: opposite phenomenon that sometimes known as pain wind up or 735 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: temporal summation, and this is where the body becomes increasingly 736 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: sensitive to unchanging painful stimulus. The same painful stimulus is 737 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: not getting more intense in terms of what's happening to 738 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: your body. It just the same thing keeps happening, and 739 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 1: it feels more and more painful upon repetition. And Heart 740 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: actually argues that increasing pain from repeated nerve stimulation sounds 741 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: very similar to what is described in the scene, except 742 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: with the interesting feature that the pain stop completely in 743 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 1: an instant. When when the reverend mother completes the test, 744 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: she says, okay, Paul is past. It's done, and then 745 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: it says that Paul experienced the pain going away as 746 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: if you know, somebody flipped a switch, and pain in 747 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: the body rarely does this. It rarely goes away that 748 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 1: fast than now. Part of the whole point of this 749 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: scene in the book is the reverend Mother's claim that essentially, 750 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: you know it's it's all in your head. She she 751 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: mocks the idea of pain, and she says to Paul, 752 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: a human can override any nerve in the body. And 753 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: so she's saying, Oh, you're afraid of pain, that just 754 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: means you're weak. You know that you haven't figured out 755 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: how to how to overcome it like I can. And 756 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: so the question is is it true that you know 757 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: a human can override any nerve in the body, the 758 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: idea that that pain is is all mental. Well, I 759 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: don't think that's entirely true. But the grain of truth 760 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: to it is that the experience of pain is subject 761 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: to more inputs than simply the pure sensory stimulus applied 762 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,480 Speaker 1: to the body, that is, you know, causing the injury 763 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: or causing the pain. In terms of the environmental input, 764 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, the knife cutting the skin, or the the 765 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: you know, the stick poking you, or the hot iron 766 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: against your hand or whatever it is. Uh and and 767 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: some of these inputs are cognitive. And so I think 768 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: it's a good way to approach this to reimagine pain 769 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: not as a sensory input in itself, but actually as 770 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: an experience. UH. And So here's the analogy I would use. 771 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: It's much the same way that vision is not an 772 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: input from the eyes but an experience. The environmental input 773 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: for vision would be light, But if you've listened to 774 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: this show for a while, you probably know that actually 775 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: all kinds of other inputs contribute to our experience of vision, 776 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: such that a person can see things with no input 777 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: of light. So think about the the UH studies we've 778 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: talked about with hallucinations that occur in total darkness. A 779 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 1: person can have can be blindfolded, or can be down 780 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: in a cave or something where there's no light at all, 781 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,919 Speaker 1: and yet they can experience vision. They can see things, 782 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,800 Speaker 1: and sometimes these things they see are not just you know, 783 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: hallucinations unconnected from reality. Sometimes these hallucinatory visions can include 784 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: real information based on other senses. The classic example I 785 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: think we've talked about on the show is, for example, UH, 786 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: the body using appropriate reception, so it's natural sense that 787 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,800 Speaker 1: allows it to know where its own limbs are to 788 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: feed into the visual system, allowing you to in the 789 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: total absence of light, hallucinate the vision of your own 790 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: hands in front of your face. Or then on the 791 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 1: other end, you can think about the way that vision 792 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: can receive inputs of light uh in and at least 793 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: part really working visual system and have no conscious experience 794 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: of vision. So think about cases such as blind site 795 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 1: where a person is blind. In terms of their conscious experience, 796 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: they do not experience vision, but they can still do 797 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,720 Speaker 1: some things that show that the brain is getting visual 798 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: inputs in some way and reacting based on them. The 799 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: person is just not able to see it with the 800 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: conscious part of their brain. And so I think pain 801 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: is not equivalent to this in every respect, but it's 802 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: close in some ways. So you can think about, I 803 00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: don't know, you know, the hot thing on your hand, 804 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 1: is that's the external stimulus applied to the body. That 805 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: would be the environmental input, kind of like the light 806 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,759 Speaker 1: in vision. But then this input is conducted through pain 807 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: fibers and brought to the brain and is one of 808 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: a number of contributors to the subjective mental experience of pain, 809 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 1: which itself consists of multiple independent components that can behave 810 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,280 Speaker 1: somewhat independently. So they think about, you know, the different 811 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,760 Speaker 1: parts of pain that you can sometimes even even sense yourself, 812 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,320 Speaker 1: like the the physical sensation of pain versus the emotional 813 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: component of pain, and they usually blend together into a 814 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: unified experience, but there can be you can you have 815 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 1: sort of moments of clarity where you feel them, uh 816 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: in their own different ways. You get the texture of each, 817 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,359 Speaker 1: if you know what I'm talking about, Rob, Yeah, yeah, 818 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:23,920 Speaker 1: I think so. I mean there's this whole to like 819 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: the emotional context of of pain. Like you you slip 820 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 1: and fall, you you know, you hurt your back in 821 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: in the moment. Yeah, there's certainly they the sensation, but 822 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: then there's all there are these added levels of like, well, 823 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: am I gonna be able to walk after this? Um? 824 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: Is this going to be a pain that sticks with me? Um? 825 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: You know? How long is it gonna take for me 826 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: to get get over this? Um? As well as even 827 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 1: considerations like does this mean my evening plans are off? 828 00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: Is this gonna cost me you know a lot of money? 829 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:58,080 Speaker 1: Are you embarrassed? Are you embarrassing? Yeah? So there's there's 830 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: so many things going on with you. Even you know, 831 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: I think I guess to fall under your back can 832 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: be quite dramatic. But even two simple things like um, 833 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, papercut, you can you can have some of 834 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: these thoughts like oh my goodness, I'm gonna have to 835 00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:11,759 Speaker 1: put wear a band aid now if I have a 836 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: band aid on, that's gonna affect my typing. How's that 837 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: going to impact my job performance today? Right? So, addressing 838 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: this question of like, what are the other measurable inputs 839 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: on the subjective total experience of pain in the brain 840 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 1: heart offers a really interesting example that's been backed up 841 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: by some studies, and uh the example she gives is 842 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,360 Speaker 1: your belief in the significance of the injury that is 843 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: causing the pain. Uh So, she cites behavioral studies showing 844 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,279 Speaker 1: that if you you take people and you subject them 845 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 1: to the exact same sensory input The example she gives 846 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,520 Speaker 1: is a hand immersed in water that is too hot 847 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: to be comfortable, so not not hot enough to actually 848 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,480 Speaker 1: like burn your skin at least for the time of 849 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,760 Speaker 1: exposure used in the experiment, but more hot than feels 850 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: a you take people their hand in that hot temperature 851 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:09,400 Speaker 1: of water, and apparently people report less emotional experience of 852 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: pain if the only variable you alter is informing them 853 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 1: that they will not be injured by the hot water. 854 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 1: So if you say this will sting, but it's not 855 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: going to burn your skin, it's not going to injure 856 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: your hand, Apparently in that condition, people report less emotional 857 00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: experience of pain. So, according to this example, you can 858 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 1: use verbal cues. You can use information that you recognize 859 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:37,000 Speaker 1: cognitively to regulate your own pain response. And so, if 860 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: you have more reason to worry that you may be 861 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: injured by this thing that feels uncomfortable, then it actually 862 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 1: hurts more. If you're assured that you won't be injured, 863 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: it hurts less. And then on top of this, heart 864 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,280 Speaker 1: identifies a couple of other inputs on the subjective experience 865 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: of pain. One I thought was interesting was the idea 866 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: of the locus of control um so. The locus of 867 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: control is a term used in psychology to explain whether 868 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: or not you feel like you are the agent in 869 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: control of a situation. Do you have the ability to 870 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: decide whether this pain stops or not? Uh so? One 871 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: one good example would be, uh say, voluntarily grabbing a 872 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:18,759 Speaker 1: hot dish out of the oven with only a thin 873 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,000 Speaker 1: towel to protect your hand. That might be briefly painful, 874 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,320 Speaker 1: but then you, you know, put it down. I'm not 875 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 1: recommending people do that, by the way, but but you know, 876 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: so that that would be a thing that you decided 877 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 1: to do and you control when it stops, versus having 878 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,879 Speaker 1: somebody say, press your hand against your will against something 879 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,759 Speaker 1: that's equivalently hot. Heart argues that the impression of helplessness 880 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,800 Speaker 1: would actually increase the experience of pain in the second scenario, 881 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: And it is kind of interesting to apply that to 882 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: Paul's situation because on one hand, he can stop the 883 00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 1: pain the second he pulls his own hand out, but 884 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: he's being held you know, hostage essentially here. You know, 885 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,160 Speaker 1: it's like there's a there's an inherent threat that you 886 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,359 Speaker 1: will die if you if you pull that hand out. So, yeah, 887 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: it's interesting, right, He's not being physically prevented from removing 888 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 1: his hand, but he, I mean, he does have the knowledge, 889 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,480 Speaker 1: he has cognitive awareness that he that the consequences will 890 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: be dire if he does remove his hands, so he 891 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,800 Speaker 1: has to internally self regulate. Uh, yeah, that's weird. I 892 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:22,600 Speaker 1: don't know. Where you would put the locusts of control 893 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,600 Speaker 1: in that situation. Yeah, I guess that's that's very much 894 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,840 Speaker 1: a ben Adjestent trick, right, obscuring the locusts of control. 895 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: That's kind of the thing. Yeah, right, Is it with 896 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,440 Speaker 1: him or is it with her? It's kind of hard 897 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 1: to say. There and then another input that hard identifies 898 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: his attention. So she says, if if something urgently demands 899 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: your attention, the brain is usually going to find a 900 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:47,720 Speaker 1: way to at least partially ignore pain until the important 901 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: business is taken care of. Again, I think we all 902 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,640 Speaker 1: know this from experience, that you can be really injured, 903 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 1: but you're right in the middle of something incredibly important, 904 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: and then it's once that task is done it suddenly 905 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,279 Speaker 1: how you realize how much it hurts. Yeah, And you 906 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,680 Speaker 1: see plenty of examples of this, like in the sports world, 907 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,960 Speaker 1: where somebody suffers an injury, but then they keep going, 908 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: they press on um and they can in that moment, 909 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 1: but in some cases they end up doing more damage. Uh, 910 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,239 Speaker 1: and then they feel the effects later. Right, And that 911 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: might not even be deliberate like that. Yeah, you might 912 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: not even be aware that you're actually hurt until yeah, yeah, yeah, 913 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,400 Speaker 1: one more example that Heart site says, a piece of 914 00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,760 Speaker 1: evidence for how pain to a large extent is something 915 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,320 Speaker 1: that happens within the brain as opposed to something that 916 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,720 Speaker 1: happens actually at the site of injury is the idea 917 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: of phantom limb pain. So of course this is you know, 918 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 1: this would be pain that is felt in a missing 919 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,640 Speaker 1: limb after that limb has been lost or amputated. And 920 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,800 Speaker 1: the interesting thing here is that this is pain not 921 00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,360 Speaker 1: only in the absence of actual ongoing tissue injury, but 922 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 1: pain in the absence of actual tissue. Heart rights quote. 923 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: These pains were originally thought to be the result of 924 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,640 Speaker 1: trauma to the severed nerves of the stump, but attempts 925 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,439 Speaker 1: to treat by a second nerve sparing amputation frequently made 926 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,280 Speaker 1: them worse. The more extreme surgery of severing the sensory 927 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 1: nerves at the spinal cord also proved to be ineffective 928 00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,400 Speaker 1: in most cases. So Heart argues that whatever the source 929 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: of pain in the body, the experience of pain, the 930 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,920 Speaker 1: subjective experience, largely happens in the brain. And this is 931 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: why I think in some cases it's it's plausible to 932 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,359 Speaker 1: imagine how the experience of pain could be regulated up 933 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,239 Speaker 1: or down by various types of you know, other mental stimulation, 934 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:42,520 Speaker 1: apart from just stuff happening to your hand inside the box. Now, 935 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: another big thing she gets into in the in this 936 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,239 Speaker 1: essay is what could actually be happening in the box, Like, 937 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 1: you know, if the if the box is in a 938 00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,360 Speaker 1: sense causing the pain, what are some plausible technologies? And 939 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 1: I don't think she really lands on anything very solid here, 940 00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,200 Speaker 1: I mean, and admittedly she talks about how like, uh, 941 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,399 Speaker 1: you know, we we we don't really know what could 942 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,800 Speaker 1: cause this kind of pain without any actual injury to tissues. 943 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,760 Speaker 1: She talks about some rumors of Pentagon interest in different 944 00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 1: types of UH technology is known as active denial systems. 945 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 1: These would be things that supposedly a you know, a 946 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,560 Speaker 1: police force or military would use to disperse crowds by 947 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:25,080 Speaker 1: inflicting pain without tissue damage on them through supposed mechanisms 948 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 1: like you know, beams of microwaves or fimtosecond lasers. But 949 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: I think she rightly points out that in reality these 950 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: things would be not only painful, but if you were 951 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 1: repeatedly subjected to them, they probably would actually cause injury. 952 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,080 Speaker 1: They would cause burns, right, and I and since this this, 953 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,120 Speaker 1: uh this has been published, I mean, I think we've 954 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,879 Speaker 1: seen more and more evidence for that based on uh, 955 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,160 Speaker 1: some of the possible uses of this technology in the world. 956 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: It's weird remembering some of the uh, the press these 957 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,520 Speaker 1: things were getting back in the day. You know, it 958 00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,600 Speaker 1: was like, oh, it's so nice that it doesn't cause injury, 959 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 1: but somebody is even if that were true, what they're 960 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: saying is I created a pain gun. Yeah yeah, yeah, 961 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,279 Speaker 1: Like that's a pain gun that leaves no mark. Like 962 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,800 Speaker 1: that's your your best possible scenario based on some of 963 00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 1: those uh those those those early articles and whatnot. But 964 00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,440 Speaker 1: one idea that Heart gets into towards the end of 965 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,960 Speaker 1: her essay, which I thought was very interesting, is the 966 00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: suggestion that ultimately the pain caused by the the gom 967 00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: Jabbar test is not actually from the box, Like what 968 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,800 Speaker 1: if the box doesn't do anything, but the pain is 969 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,279 Speaker 1: from the Reverend Mother herself. And I think the book 970 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,320 Speaker 1: actually gives us reason to suspect this, Like when Paul 971 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,759 Speaker 1: re encounters the Reverend Mother again later in the book, 972 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:47,600 Speaker 1: he's like, I'm not going to fall for your tricks 973 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: this time, suggesting that Paul believes that it was actually 974 00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: her causing the pain in his hand and not and 975 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:57,400 Speaker 1: not the technology whatever that was inside the box. And 976 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,919 Speaker 1: here the idea would be that you along the lines 977 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,359 Speaker 1: of the other stuff we learn about the Bennie Jesser, 978 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,319 Speaker 1: it's that they have these special powers of hypnosis. They 979 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,600 Speaker 1: specialize again in politics, which ultimately is, you know, the 980 00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:14,799 Speaker 1: science of manipulating people and influencing them. Yeah, I mean, uh, 981 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:16,480 Speaker 1: to a certain extent. You can see, you can look 982 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,120 Speaker 1: around in the world around you, and it's like politics 983 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:23,080 Speaker 1: is often about manipulating your perception of pain points. Uh. 984 00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,879 Speaker 1: So it makes sense that they're they're good at this. Yeah, yeah, 985 00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,520 Speaker 1: even even in the mundane sense. But but so ultimately 986 00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,279 Speaker 1: I thought this was kind of interesting because there is 987 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,800 Speaker 1: some real research linking. So, you know, one of the 988 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:37,680 Speaker 1: things that says that the Bennie Jesser It's due in 989 00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:41,480 Speaker 1: this regard is they have hypnosis techniques. Uh. And so 990 00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,920 Speaker 1: there is actually some research in the real world showing 991 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: that hypnosis, at least for people who are susceptible to hypnosis, 992 00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:53,080 Speaker 1: and not everybody is, but for people who are susceptible, 993 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,200 Speaker 1: hypnosis can in many cases be shown to be effective 994 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,320 Speaker 1: at a pain relief in in both onic and acute conditions. 995 00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 1: If you want to read more about this, there was 996 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,000 Speaker 1: there was a press release summarizing a bunch of existing 997 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,000 Speaker 1: research from the year two thousand four put out by 998 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,600 Speaker 1: the American Psychological Association called Hypnosis for the Relief and 999 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,040 Speaker 1: Control of Pain. Uh. Now, I think there would be. 1000 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,399 Speaker 1: I think the effects we're talking about here, uh would 1001 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,759 Speaker 1: be much more modest than what is imagined in this 1002 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: science fiction scenario, like, you know, making somebody think that 1003 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,200 Speaker 1: their hand is literally on fire burning down to a 1004 00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,200 Speaker 1: piece of ash. Um. I think this would be more 1005 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,799 Speaker 1: along the lines of four people who are susceptible to hypnosis. 1006 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,200 Speaker 1: It might have some mitigating effect on sensations of pain, 1007 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,640 Speaker 1: but not like a totally mitigating effect. And of course 1008 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: the evil corollary of that would be that if you 1009 00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:49,960 Speaker 1: can deaden people's sensitivity to pain through hypnosis, you could 1010 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,680 Speaker 1: probably increase it as well, though that would be much 1011 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,080 Speaker 1: less ethical to study, at least in context beyond you know, 1012 00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:59,719 Speaker 1: the relatively mild forms of pain people experience, would say, 1013 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,520 Speaker 1: a hand pludged into a bucket of ice water. I 1014 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,920 Speaker 1: have to say that. Um. I think another a bit 1015 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:08,840 Speaker 1: of evidence that kind of supports the idea that the 1016 00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,200 Speaker 1: box is not generating the pain is that the box 1017 00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 1: doesn't have a proper name. And and Herbert was not 1018 00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,680 Speaker 1: shy about giving uh, you know, throwing out names and 1019 00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,960 Speaker 1: terminology in in the book. I mean, there's a whole 1020 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,320 Speaker 1: dictionary in the back of the novel, uh, you know, 1021 00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,480 Speaker 1: letting you know what these various things are. Uh. The 1022 00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,120 Speaker 1: needle at at Paul's neck has a name, but the 1023 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,799 Speaker 1: box is just referred to informally as the as a box. Right, 1024 00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,560 Speaker 1: that's a good point. I In fact, I'm I totally agree. 1025 00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:41,040 Speaker 1: If the box were they were they efficacious agent here, 1026 00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,320 Speaker 1: the box would have its own name. I feel like 1027 00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,839 Speaker 1: I know Herbert's brain well enough to know that. All Right, Well, 1028 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,120 Speaker 1: at this point, we realize it's time for us to 1029 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,359 Speaker 1: take our hands out of the box. Uh, We're we're 1030 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:55,359 Speaker 1: out of time for this episode of stuff to blow 1031 00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:56,960 Speaker 1: your mind. But we're gonna be back in the next 1032 00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,800 Speaker 1: episode with a continuation of this discussion. We're going to 1033 00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:03,080 Speaker 1: keep talking about the benegescriates. Um, We're going to talk 1034 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,279 Speaker 1: about getting into back into that idea of politics and 1035 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,720 Speaker 1: what that means and if who knows we may discuss 1036 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,920 Speaker 1: some other topics in the Dune universe as well. That 1037 00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,759 Speaker 1: cold open reading, by the way, is of course from 1038 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,080 Speaker 1: Frank Herbert's Dune and Annie Reese, co host of Stuff 1039 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,719 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You and Savor, was nice enough to 1040 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,360 Speaker 1: record that for us, so thanks Annie. In the meantime, 1041 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:28,400 Speaker 1: if you like to check out other episodes of Stuff 1042 00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:29,840 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, you can find them in the 1043 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,880 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast feed which is found 1044 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,280 Speaker 1: anywhere you get your podcast. Core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 1045 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,360 Speaker 1: listener Mail on Monday, Artifact on Wednesday, and on Fridays, 1046 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,040 Speaker 1: we do Weird how Cinema. That's our time to just 1047 00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: set aside most of the serious matters and just discuss 1048 00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:47,760 Speaker 1: a strange film. Huge thanks as always to our excellent 1049 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,840 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 1050 00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,240 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 1051 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,600 Speaker 1: or any other to suggest a topic for the future, 1052 00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:58,360 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 1053 00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:08,799 Speaker 1: at Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Stuff to Blow Your 1054 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,760 Speaker 1: Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts 1055 00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,879 Speaker 1: for my heart Radio, this is the i Heart Radio app, 1056 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,760 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows