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Speaker 1: Hello, They're happy Thursday, and welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: the Chuck Podcast. In a few minutes kind of an

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Speaker 1: I have an interesting conversation with Ben Smith. Some of

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Speaker 1: you may remember Ben Smith from the BuzzFeed days, some

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Speaker 1: of you may remember Ben Smith from Politico, but he's

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Speaker 1: also co founder of a fascinating still new, it's a

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Speaker 1: couple of years old now, but still fairly new publication

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Speaker 1: called Semaphore. Their goal being to market to the two

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Speaker 1: hundred million what is it? It's the excuse me more

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Speaker 1: than that, the I think seven hundred million English speaking

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Speaker 1: world is the goal. Two hundred million in the in

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Speaker 1: the in a certain demographic group of English speakers around

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Speaker 1: the world. But we talk a little bit of state

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Speaker 1: of the media, a little bit of this state of

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Speaker 1: international media, a little bit. I find Semaphore extraordinarily helped

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Speaker 1: full in They have newsletters about every continent, the politics,

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Speaker 1: the business of different continents, and I think their daily

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Speaker 1: newsletter on Africa and the Gulf States has made me

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Speaker 1: a heck of a lot more informed than just reading

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Speaker 1: just trying to, you know, read the Economist or Financial

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Speaker 1: Times or New York Times to try to keep track

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Speaker 1: of that stuff. So I find it to be an

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Speaker 1: exceptional publication. I find Ben to be a fascinating He's

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Speaker 1: got a fascinating view of media in general. But he's

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Speaker 1: a New York City guy, and so we spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time talking about Mom Donnie and the future

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Speaker 1: of that race, what does it mean for New York.

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Speaker 1: He is a New Yorker through and through, loves his city,

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Speaker 1: loves the history of the city. If you love New York,

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Speaker 1: you're going to love this conversation with him. Before I

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Speaker 1: get to it, I got a few other things I

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Speaker 1: want to get to including I want to tell you

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Speaker 1: about an event that I would just participated in yesterday.

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Speaker 1: It was about the local news crisis. That was an

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Speaker 1: event in the state of Michigan. This one is about

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Speaker 1: the future of independence and whether there is a viable path.

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Speaker 1: And I moderated an interesting panel with the chair of

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Speaker 1: the Forward Party as well as sort of the chief

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Speaker 1: political analyst of the Independent Center, with the goal being

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Speaker 1: to try to build an infrastructure. And that's what's interesting there.

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Speaker 1: It's an infrastructure. The goal is to try to build

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Speaker 1: an infrastructure to help independent candidates when they get swamped

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Speaker 1: at the end by big money, either from Republican super

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Speaker 1: PACs or Democratic superpacks. So they're trying to create an ecosystem,

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Speaker 1: and you know the challenges of that, and I want

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Speaker 1: to speak to that in a minute. But it is,

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Speaker 1: it is, it is. It is the story that won't

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Speaker 1: go away. It is the piece of toilet paper that

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Speaker 1: is stuck on the bottom of Donald Trump's loafers, if

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Speaker 1: you will, or I guess is a Floorsheim's shoes or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is that he wears. I'm sure he doesn't

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Speaker 1: do Floorsheim And for those of you who know that brand,

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Speaker 1: enjoy the throwback to that. But he can't shake Epstein anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting is in fact that this independent event

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Speaker 1: there's a few former members of Congress there. I was

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Speaker 1: talking with Red Ribbel, a former Republican Member of Congress

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Speaker 1: from Wisconsin who has basically left the Republican Party, and

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Speaker 1: he was speaking to some current members and he wasn't

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Speaker 1: naming names, but he was telling me about how important

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Speaker 1: this Epstein issue is to constituents in the very conservative districts.

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Speaker 1: So what this really is so in sort of like

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Speaker 1: reality based land, Epstein is a curiosity of a story.

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Speaker 1: But in some of the deep red districts and in

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Speaker 1: the deep and I've told you this, there's a piece

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Speaker 1: of the Republican base that has been he sent I

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Speaker 1: call it's a form of grooming of sorts. I know

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Speaker 1: that word is going to trigger some people, but they

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Speaker 1: have been conditioned is probably the better term to use.

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Speaker 1: Some of you are not going to like that I

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Speaker 1: use that, and so conditioned is a better word. But this,

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Speaker 1: these group of voters have been conditioned on the Epstein

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Speaker 1: story that it was sort of the tip of the spear.

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Speaker 1: It was sort of the way to prove that there

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Speaker 1: was there has been a deep state, that there is

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Speaker 1: this cupal of elites where the rules only apply to

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Speaker 1: them and not to anybody else. And I've told you

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Speaker 1: this before. The importance to these folks that believe in

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Speaker 1: this conspiracy, this conspiracy the elites, that there is a

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Speaker 1: there there to Epstein, and the idea that even Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump can't tell these people that there's a there there

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Speaker 1: because with this group of voters he did, they're not

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Speaker 1: his base. This is the piece of the base that

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Speaker 1: belongs more to the movement than it does Donald Trumps.

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Speaker 1: We've learned there's sort of two parts of MAGA. Half

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Speaker 1: of it is Trump's and they'll do whatever they say.

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Speaker 1: And most of the elected Republicans, not all, but most

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Speaker 1: of the elected Republicans believe there is more to fear

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Speaker 1: from the Trump wing of MAGA than there is to

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Speaker 1: say from the q Andon wing of MEGA. And that's

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Speaker 1: really what this is. This is the q and On wing.

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Speaker 1: This is you know why Mike Flynn is pushing back.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's sort of the unofficial pope of the

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Speaker 1: remainder of q Andon since there is no que anymore.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there never was a que or maybe it is

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Speaker 1: Mike Flynn, right, I its or do I dun dun dunk.

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Speaker 1: But what Epstein sort of represents for these voters is

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, truth are you are these lawmakers

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Speaker 1: going to keep their word? You know, it's like anything

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Speaker 1: right any elected official if you get caught breaking sort

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Speaker 1: of a core promise. You know, voters are used to

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Speaker 1: politicians lying all the time, and there's sort of an

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Speaker 1: there's almost like an accepted an acceptability of certain lies.

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Speaker 1: You know, going to balance the budget and they're full

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Speaker 1: of shit, They're not going to balance the budget. But well,

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Speaker 1: but as a voter, you'll weirdly accept that. But when

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Speaker 1: you do things like I'll give you an example of

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Speaker 1: a famous pledge, read my lips, no new taxes, right,

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Speaker 1: And there were some people that really took that to

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Speaker 1: the bank. And why did they take that to the bank. Well,

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Speaker 1: at that time, it's because there were conservatives that were

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Speaker 1: skeptical of George H. W. Bush and they thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's he's gonna you know, he's not a real small

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Speaker 1: government conservative. And so, by the way, those conservatives are right.

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Speaker 1: And you know, George H. W. Bush was a compromiser,

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Speaker 1: and he had a Democratic Congress, and he compromised, and yes,

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Speaker 1: they raised taxes. By the way, it set the country

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Speaker 1: up for an extraordinarily great run on the economy in

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Speaker 1: the nineties. Built Bill Clinton built upon it. It's not

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Speaker 1: like he undid what George HW. Bush did. He built

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Speaker 1: upon it. Another famous sort of pledge that really sort

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Speaker 1: of hurt that person was when Barack Obama said during

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Speaker 1: the debate about healthcare, if you like your plane, you

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Speaker 1: get to keep it. It got turned into the lie

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Speaker 1: of the year. Now, it never harmed Obama's politics personally, right,

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Speaker 1: it didn't cost him reelection. In twenty twelve, Part of

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Speaker 1: it is he never fully faced reelection when it was

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Speaker 1: fully clear that not everybody was going to be able

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Speaker 1: to keep their plan if they liked it. But it

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Speaker 1: did harm some Democrats. It was a huge It was

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Speaker 1: sort of one of those sort of and this is

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Speaker 1: where I think the Epstein promise falls for this core

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Speaker 1: group of voters. You promised you were going to release this.

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Speaker 1: We knew we couldn't trust the Democrats to release this,

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Speaker 1: but you could release this. And you guys promised to

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Speaker 1: release this. And you know, if you've spent any time

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Speaker 1: on X and you follow the Lincoln Project or the

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Speaker 1: podsave they have some or the Bulwark people, they have

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Speaker 1: found pretty much every single tweet that Donald Trump Junior

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Speaker 1: has said about release the Epstein files, every single tweet

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Speaker 1: that that Jade Vance has said to release the Epstein files.

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Speaker 1: And so for these voters, this was the equivalent of

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Speaker 1: read my lips, no new taxes, or if you like

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Speaker 1: your plane, you get to keep it and it is possible.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is this is this is what

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Speaker 1: Trump has to fear, is that it's reached that level.

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Speaker 1: And how do we know it's reached that level? Because

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Speaker 1: there are a handful of Republican members of Congress that

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Speaker 1: are so scared of this issue that they are willing

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Speaker 1: to break with Trump on it. Okay, And maybe some

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Speaker 1: of them are doing it out of principle. I think

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Speaker 1: most of them are breaking here out of they believe

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Speaker 1: their constituents that there there is a big enough constituency

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Speaker 1: in their district that this could cost them reelection, that

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Speaker 1: this could be into a primary problem. And so you're

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Speaker 1: seeing there is somewhere between twenty and forty Republicans who

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Speaker 1: are absolutely not going to walk the plank here with Trump.

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Speaker 1: They don't want to look like they're covering something up

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Speaker 1: with Trump. And you saw the movement and that subcommittee

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Speaker 1: in the House Oversight Committee, the fact that Mike Johnson

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Speaker 1: just sent him home. Part of this group I was

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Speaker 1: telling you about that. I was the panel panel before

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Speaker 1: the one I moderated, featured three former Republican members of Congress.

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Speaker 1: They did Joe Manchin did something as sort of a

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Speaker 1: Democrat who's moved to the independence, and then they had

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Speaker 1: sort of three Republican members of Congress. Was red Ribble.

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Speaker 1: It was Ken Buck from a Republican from a former

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Speaker 1: Republican from Colorado, and Mark Sandford, former Republican member of

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Speaker 1: Congress from South Carolina. And it was Mark Sandford that

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Speaker 1: said that he can't believe that. It just he was

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Speaker 1: remarking at how broken Congress is and how broken the

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Speaker 1: House is, the fact that Speaker Johnson had to shut

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Speaker 1: the place down for fear of members of Congress wanting

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Speaker 1: to work their will, like he was appalled at simply, hey,

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Speaker 1: you don't like it that there's two hundred and eighteen votes,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that because it is not on partisan

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Speaker 1: lines and it's on bipartisan lines, you're just shutting the

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Speaker 1: House down. And in some ways, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: the point he was making is that actually is bringing

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Speaker 1: more attention to the issue, and what he thought was

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Speaker 1: an attempt to quell things actually probably made it worse

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Speaker 1: with those twenty to thirty Republican House members who really

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Speaker 1: believe this is an issue that moves their constituents. Look,

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Speaker 1: I'm not changing my opinion on whether I think this

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Speaker 1: is a shiny metal It is a shiny metal object

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Speaker 1: that has been sort of force fed upon the media ecosystem.

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Speaker 1: Thank you algorithms, Thank you hackers of the algorithms. Thank

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Speaker 1: you to those and the right, who broke the information ecosystem,

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Speaker 1: and who trafficked in conspiracy theories and who allowed this

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Speaker 1: thing to get traction. This is why the phrases hoisted

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Speaker 1: on your own petard and you reap what you're sew

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Speaker 1: are sayings, because this is the world that many of

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Speaker 1: these folks helped create is now biting them in the

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Speaker 1: you know what. And here's the other problem with conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 1: There's no amount of information that gets released is going

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Speaker 1: to be believed. No amount maybe at this point and now,

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Speaker 1: of course, and this is you know, of course, the

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Speaker 1: more Trump denies sort of any sort of or tries

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Speaker 1: to detach himself, the more it becomes a newsworthy story

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Speaker 1: to go find out, well, what's he hiding? And the

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Speaker 1: more that he acts that he's hiding something, the more,

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Speaker 1: you know. I use this with my friend Chris Saliza,

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Speaker 1: and I'll share it with you guys. If you didn't

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Speaker 1: hear the podcast I did with Solissa earlier this week,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite, there's a Harrison Ford gave what

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Speaker 1: I think is the best political advice I've ever heard

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Speaker 1: in a fictional movie. It's from Clear and Present Danger.

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Speaker 1: Harrison Ford plays Jack Ryan, and I forgive me if

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Speaker 1: some of you have heard me say this one before.

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Speaker 1: But there's this moment, and it's sort of a sidebar.

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Speaker 1: It has really nothing to do with the main part

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Speaker 1: of a plot in that movie. But you know, suddenly

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Speaker 1: Harrison Ford is in with the fictional president and the

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Speaker 1: president has some sort of his biggest donor has become

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Speaker 1: a political problem, and he's got an aid in the

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Speaker 1: Oval office telling the fictional president, Hey, you know what,

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Speaker 1: You've got to distance yourself from your pal here. You

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Speaker 1: know this is becoming a problem. And Harrison Ford, the

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Speaker 1: CIA guy, overhears and he goes, Oh, you shouldn't do that.

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Speaker 1: If they ask you if he's a friend, you say no,

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Speaker 1: he's a close friend. And if they ask you if

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Speaker 1: he's a close friend, you say no, he's your best friend.

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Speaker 1: The point is he's like, don't give him something they

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Speaker 1: can disprove. Don't make your real life relationship the news story.

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Speaker 1: And Trump has made the relationship itself now a story.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, here's more wedding photos, and here's a birthday card,

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Speaker 1: and here's a poem, and here's a drawing. When all

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Speaker 1: Trump had this is one of those moments where if

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Speaker 1: he says I was close friends with the guy I

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Speaker 1: knew he was, I knew he liked him young, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know he liked him that young. We broke off

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Speaker 1: when he did this. He had a built in story.

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Speaker 1: But for whatever reason, he is afraid to admit he's

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Speaker 1: a member of the elite right. And we know at

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Speaker 1: the heart, at the core of the MAGA movement and

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Speaker 1: the populist movement in general, it's been to burn the

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Speaker 1: elites to own the Libs has really own the elites

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Speaker 1: right to those cultural whether it's the Ivy League institutions,

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Speaker 1: the mainstream media, etc. And Epstein is seen as sort

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Speaker 1: of one of the players of the elite now, you

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Speaker 1: know it is there's so Trump feels as if he

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Speaker 1: can't even admit that the relationship that we all know

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Speaker 1: he had with Epstein is something he just wants to

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Speaker 1: pretend didn't happen. I mean, one of the craziest things

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Speaker 1: that jad Vance has said in defense of Trump is

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Speaker 1: following the Wall Street Journal story about the infamous birthday

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Speaker 1: card or birthday poem, is Donald Trump doesn't speak that way,

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Speaker 1: And you're like, oh, son, you know this is every

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Speaker 1: once in a while you got to remind yourself. Jady

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Speaker 1: Vance is sort of a man child rights he's for

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Speaker 1: there's always this sort of weird immaturity that still sort

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Speaker 1: of hovers over him. And by the way, anybody in

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Speaker 1: their late thirties early forties, you know, when I was

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Speaker 1: in my late thirties or early forties, I still every

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Speaker 1: once in a while I enjoyed being an immature. You know,

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Speaker 1: you sort of you want to revert back to your twenties.

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Speaker 1: You want to be a snarky. You want to be

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Speaker 1: a snark, you want to be a smart ass. But

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Speaker 1: you're also a little bit uninformed. And sometimes either he

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Speaker 1: thinks that if he just plays the Jedi mind trick

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Speaker 1: with the base. Donald Trump never speaks this way. What

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Speaker 1: are you talking about? This is the lane. Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: is a guy from Queens. Trust me. He has spoken

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Speaker 1: that way and then some. So it is this, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a this is a feeding frenzy that Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: You know, he is both the arsonist and he has

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Speaker 1: poured gas on the fire. Right he lit the fire

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Speaker 1: in the first place. With the conspiratorial you know, there's

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Speaker 1: some deep state dark it's all these dark forces, and

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Speaker 1: he basically glombed on. You know, these this weird movement

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Speaker 1: existed before Trump was there, and he scooped him up.

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Speaker 1: And he loved how loyal they were to him online

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Speaker 1: and they became his online warriors. He loved that they

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Speaker 1: saw him as a messiah. They love and he he

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Speaker 1: didn't fully appreciate suddenly what some of the expectations would be.

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Speaker 1: And a big one is He's supposed to be the

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Speaker 1: one to prove this crazy conspiracy theory is true. And

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Speaker 1: now what is he doing. He is behaving like the

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Speaker 1: deep state. So look, it's interesting that John Thune is saying,

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Speaker 1: now this is a Mike Johnson problem. Look, eventually this

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Speaker 1: is maybe it won't be a problem in the Senate

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Speaker 1: because whatever the House votes to do, the Senate would

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Speaker 1: probably do ninety ten on this front because none of

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Speaker 1: them want to get caught up in this story. And

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Speaker 1: being in favor of transparency is always a better political

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Speaker 1: place to be, whether you're on the left or the right.

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Speaker 1: But by the way, I told you, the whole grand

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Speaker 1: jury shenanigans that Trump tried to create with Pam BONDI

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Speaker 1: was a sleight of hand because Trump knew darn well

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Speaker 1: that none of this stuff was ever going to get

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Speaker 1: released by a judge, And sure enough, a judge just

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Speaker 1: said that none of this grand jury testimony can be released.

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Speaker 1: So it is you and you want to talk about

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Speaker 1: a spectacle in September or October of Galleine Maxwell, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is like right out of a movie.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're going to bring them in for a

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Speaker 1: congress bring her in for a congressional hearing. And there's

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Speaker 1: there's a good group of people there that seem pretty insistent.

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Speaker 1: This is what Comer wants, this is what timber Chit wants,

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Speaker 1: this is what Massey wants. I don't know if Trump's

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Speaker 1: going to be able to stop this now. The only

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Speaker 1: thing he now should wish is that he just sort

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Speaker 1: of ripped the band aid off a lot sooner, because

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Speaker 1: this becomes a lot more painful for him politically. If

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Speaker 1: this becomes the dominant issue when the calendar turns to September,

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Speaker 1: this can be a sort of summer silly season story

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Speaker 1: that he sort of struggles with but gets over, or

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Speaker 1: this could linger and stick with him. You know, I

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Speaker 1: can't help but notice there is a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a parallel. Remember things went Things looked like They were

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Speaker 1: going pretty well for Joe Biden in the first five

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Speaker 1: months of his presidency, and he got the checks out

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Speaker 1: the door, and he got the vaccines out the door.

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Speaker 1: In July fourth he declared independence from the virus. And

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Speaker 1: then at the end of that month the withdrawal from Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: and it was a disaster. And then they were trying

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Speaker 1: really hard to make it seem as if it wasn't

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Speaker 1: their fault and they weren't owning the problem. And then

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Speaker 1: infestered and it festered, and I would argue it was

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the end of that presidency. Other things

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Speaker 1: became problematic, but he never politically recovered from this moment.

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Speaker 1: Trump's already in a hole politically, He's already in a

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Speaker 1: lower place than Joe Biden was right before the Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: withdrawal problem. And so Trump already has a substance problem

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Speaker 1: with the voters. They don't like how he's implemented the

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Speaker 1: deportation policy, The Big Beautiful Bill is unpopular. This economy

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Speaker 1: is not popular right now because housing's expensive, the cost

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Speaker 1: of living is still up, et cetera. And now there's

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Speaker 1: this Epstein issue, and so this is he is going

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Speaker 1: to wish he just dealt with it in July and August,

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Speaker 1: and that he let the house work its will, and

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Speaker 1: that he just kept following disclosures, because then it looks

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Speaker 1: like he's not afraid of any of this. But now

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Speaker 1: he seems to be afraid of disclosures. So now we

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Speaker 1: have the leaked we have leaked stories that say he

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Speaker 1: found out his name was in these files multiple times.

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Speaker 1: And you know, this is what happens when you have

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Speaker 1: this sort of He's got a bit of a god

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Speaker 1: complex that he's developed, particularly after going You know, in

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Speaker 1: his mind he's here, he's defeated two impeachments, he's been

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Speaker 1: indicted multiple times and somehow has not had to pay

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Speaker 1: any price. He survived one actual assassination attempt and a

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Speaker 1: second potential assassination attempt. So perhaps he, perhaps any of

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Speaker 1: us would have a god comp after going through everything

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Speaker 1: he went through. But he's got the god complex and

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Speaker 1: thinks he can just will anything away, wish anything away,

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Speaker 1: do the Jedi mind trick, and his base is going

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Speaker 1: to follow, and it hasn't worked. And now he's so

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Speaker 1: hanging out there and they don't know what to do, right.

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Speaker 1: They seem to be tied up because their most loyal

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Speaker 1: media audience, half of them want more information from him

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Speaker 1: and think Trump's hiding stuff from him, and they're not happy.

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Speaker 1: So he doesn't. He doesn't. He can't even use his

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Speaker 1: attack the mainstream media. They're out to get me, uh political,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of uh uh whatever you want to

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Speaker 1: call it. You know that that version of his excuse

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Speaker 1: of trying a distraction trick is a little Jedi mind trick.

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Speaker 1: It's not and that one's not working. So he's if

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Speaker 1: he goes into September and this is an unresolved issue

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Speaker 1: and we have votes in the House, and I you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think this economy is going to hold up

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Speaker 1: by the fall all of his tariff That the weight

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Speaker 1: of the tariffs are going to start to hit and

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Speaker 1: hit harder and harder as each month goes on, and

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Speaker 1: we'll have this spectacle of Epstein. I'd be shocked if

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Speaker 1: we get Gallainne Maxwell going. But at this point, if

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Speaker 1: you're Trump, you might be it's better off doing that

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Speaker 1: because if they look like they're afraid of her, they

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Speaker 1: look like they they don't want to hear from her.

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Speaker 1: At this point, it only may make the you know

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Speaker 1: the wounded fester even more so. Look, you know my

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Speaker 1: opinion about this story. It's a it's sort of a

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Speaker 1: story being forced upon us by the big tech companies.

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Speaker 1: And there's abserd algorithms that got abused by these right

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Speaker 1: wing conspiracy theorists. But here we are so enjoy being

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Speaker 1: hoisted on that petard on this front. But I can

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Speaker 1: tell you this, They've got to find a way to

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Speaker 1: rip the band aid off. They cannot. He waits till September.

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Speaker 1: He may splinter his party, and there is nothing that

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Speaker 1: accelerates lame duck status for a president. Then when the

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Speaker 1: party begins to realize there's always going to be a point,

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Speaker 1: and even Donald Trump is going to face this. And

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Speaker 1: I brought this up in my substack this week. The

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Speaker 1: question is when there's always a point in a second

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Speaker 1: term of a presidency where the party realizes that guy's

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Speaker 1: not going to be in charge anymore and you start

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Speaker 1: to see people peel away. Epstein is now allowing Republicans

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Speaker 1: to start peeling away and distancing themselves from Trump faster

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Speaker 1: than I think this White House was prepared for. And

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Speaker 1: this isn't something you get back once it starts a

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Speaker 1: drip becomes a leak, becomes a gusher. Don't believe me,

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Speaker 1: Go take a look at how the first nine month

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Speaker 1: of George W. Bush's second term win. It started off

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Speaker 1: like it was going to go really well after his

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Speaker 1: impressive reelection, and when it started leaking, it suddenly became

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Speaker 1: a gusher. And then politically he was in the It

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Speaker 1: was a disaster, and the Republican Party abandoned ship as

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Speaker 1: fast as they could. That's what Donald Trump now has

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Speaker 1: to fear. If he's smart, believe it or not, he

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Speaker 1: should call up his buddy Mike Johnson since he's also

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Speaker 1: the you know, basically, Mike Johnson is whatever. His only speaker,

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Speaker 1: only executes his his speakership, when when Donald Trump asked

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Speaker 1: him to, he should be telling Speaker Johnson to get back,

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Speaker 1: go deal with this, release the files. Deal with it now,

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Speaker 1: deal with it in the August recess. You let this

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Speaker 1: come come in September. It's only going to make it worse.

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Speaker 1: A few other notes I want to make before we

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Speaker 1: get to my Ben Smith conversation. First of all, thank

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Speaker 1: you Google. I made a big deal out of the

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Speaker 1: fact that Google's AI was incorrectly diagnosing me with Parkinson's disease.

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Speaker 1: I had an entire sort of obviously bringing it up.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's listening over there. And now if you search Chuck

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Speaker 1: Todd illness, it says there is no evidence of this,

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Speaker 1: and none of this is true, there's no confirmation, etc.

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Speaker 1: But this is a reminder of AI is only as

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Speaker 1: strong as the information that gets put into it, and

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Speaker 1: how these large language models are built. What these large

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Speaker 1: language models train on matters a great deal, not a

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Speaker 1: little bit. And the thing that I learned about Gemini

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Speaker 1: versus chat GPT is interesting here. Chat GPT doesn't sort

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Speaker 1: of scour, you know, unless you ask it to sort

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Speaker 1: of scrape the internet over the last seventy two hours.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't automatically do that when searching for information. Google's

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Speaker 1: AI does it, and so frequency of something becomes factual

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Speaker 1: rather than actually discerning to find out if something is

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Speaker 1: true or not. So I hope this is a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a reminder of folks that AI has got a

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Speaker 1: long way to go, and that remember what AI is.

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Speaker 1: It's just a really smart search engine. If you think

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Speaker 1: it's there to help you to it's there to help

430
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: you solve problems, It's not there to solve problems for you.

431
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: And I wish, I wish the you know, I understand

432
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: why the people that lead AI want want, you know,

433
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: want to be aspirational and oh no, this is you know,

434
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: this is going to be like science fiction and you

435
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: know these these computer models are going to reason even

436
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: their reasoning is a computer program based on probability. Okay,

437
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 1: so it is. I do think that the leaders in

438
00:25:54,240 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: the AI community need to remind people what the large

439
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: language models are not versus what they are. One other

440
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: note from a previous episode that I wanted to bring

441
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: up in my conversation with Lena Khan, we were talking

442
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: about what are some of the things about AI, what

443
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: are some of the regulatory concerns about AI? And she

444
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: brought up something called surveillance pricing, which is this idea

445
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: that you know, each of us are individually only going

446
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: to see prices that that retailer thinks, using AI researching

447
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: us figures out what we can pay. And Lena brought

448
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: up an interesting scenario. Let's say you have a death

449
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: in your family and you've got to fly to Denver, Colorado,

450
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: and the program knows knows enough about you and is

451
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: able to do enough research to know you have to go.

452
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: They know that you have this relative who died, and

453
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: so they know you have to pay, have to get

454
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 1: this ticket that you're going to see. They know that

455
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: you might pay not quite any price, but close to

456
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: any price. Well, lo and behold. What did Delta Airlines

457
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: announced earlier this week? Delta Airlines? And I give them

458
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: credit for being forthcoming about this, but they said in

459
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: their earnings call that going forward, twenty percent of their

460
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: fares may be set by basically AI, which means it's

461
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is it how much I

462
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: will pay versus how much someone else will pay. I

463
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: don't see how that is anything other than predatory and discriminatory.

464
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: I assume that's why we have consumer protections as something

465
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: that we expect our government to do. But the fact

466
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: that we are not yet, we don't yet realize that

467
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: this is probably something that needs to be regulated and controlled.

468
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 1: That's a bit scary. But keep that in mind. Keep

469
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: that in mind. I said, I give Delta. I think

470
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: Delta by the way of the three big airlines. I

471
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: wish they flew to more cities that I fly to.

472
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: That's all I'm going to say. The fact that every

473
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: Delta experience I have is so much better than the

474
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: other two major airlines that I end up flying more frequently,

475
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: so I give kudos. It's a In fact, I was

476
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: on a Delta flight today and the pilot came out

477
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: to thank to thank those I happen to be sitting

478
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: in a frequent flyer section, if you will. I'll just

479
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: leave it at that and think, you know, appreciated the business.

480
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: And da da da dah went through this stuff. I've

481
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: never had that an American. I've never had that in

482
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: United It was you know, plus you throw in the

483
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: fact that it's free Wi Fi and Delta. It's not

484
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: free Wi Fi and the other two they do a

485
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,239
Speaker 1: lot of things that is there's a reason why it is.

486
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: I think it is right now the more popular airline,

487
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: but Delta. I will not say nice things about you

488
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: if you go down this AI surveillance pricing bs because

489
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: it's extraordinarily discriminatory and I think predatory. So I just

490
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: wanted to bring that up because literally had the conversation

491
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: with Lena con and I think was two days later

492
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: that the news about Delta Airlines was there a couple

493
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: of political notes in North Carolina. Roy Cooper has decided

494
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: to jump in. We kind of knew. I think i'd

495
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: let you know that it would have been a shock

496
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: to Democrats had the former governor not gotten into the

497
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: Senate race. But what's interesting I told you before Laura

498
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: Trump has frozen the Republican field, saying she isn't going

499
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 1: to make a decision until Thanksgiving. However, according to my

500
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: friends at the Hotline, she actually has to make her

501
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: decision sooner than that, even though she wents to state

502
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: law North Carolina requires her to move back to North

503
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: Carolina by late September in order to meet a ninety

504
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: day party affiliation requirement before the December candidate filing deadline.

505
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: So while Laura Trump wanted to buy time until Thanksgiving,

506
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: according to my friends in Hotline, that is something she

507
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: can't do anymore. So with Roy Cooper in, I actually

508
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: do think because he's going to get a huge financial

509
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: head start on that, I do think there'll be a lot,

510
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: you know, a she's got an actual deadline in order

511
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: to meet residency requirements. And frankly, I think it's something

512
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: that national Republicans are going to want her. It's going

513
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: to I think this is a double edged sword in

514
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 1: a midterm year sharing the last name with the sitting president.

515
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: I don't care which party you are. In any midterm year,

516
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: that's usually not a good place to be. So while

517
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: being a Trump will clear the field for her, means

518
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: there'll be no serious primary challenge, She'll have all the

519
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: money in the world, et cetera, et cetera. She may

520
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: acquire all of Donald Trump's political baggage. And is that

521
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: something that is going to make that seed harder to

522
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: hold or easier to hold? All right, let me tell

523
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: you quick two minutes about this independent there was. There

524
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: was two interesting pieces of information that I learned from

525
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 1: it that I wanted to share. One is sort of

526
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: the demographic makeup of self describe independence. I think many

527
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: of us have been telling you for quite some time

528
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: that you know, the fastest growing party in America is

529
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: no party you go around any There's about thirty five

530
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: states that keep track of that force you to register

531
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: by party. There's another fifteen where you don't have to

532
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: register by party. I live in one of those, Virginia.

533
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: It's that you don't have to declare party to registered vote.

534
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: But among those states that do the fastest growing party

535
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: has been either no party affiliation independent however, and I

536
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: think they call it NPA in Florida. Different states call

537
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: it different things. Nearly seventy five percent of all those

538
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: that have been registering as independence are under the age

539
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: of forty five. This is primarily a phenomenon of millennials

540
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: and gen Z. And what's also interesting is that the

541
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: gentleman that was on my panel believed that by twenty

542
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: twenty eight, millennials and gen Z combined, so basically, all

543
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: voters under the age of fifty will outnumber all voters

544
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: over the age of fifty in the electorate. So this

545
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: is the growing part of the electorate as the older

546
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: part is shrinking. And what's interesting older voters because once

547
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: you get into the habit of either voting read or

548
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: voting blue, the older you get, the more likely you

549
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: keep that habit. You view third party candidates or independent

550
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: candidates more as spoilers that end up benefiting one party

551
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: or the other party. That is not where millennials see

552
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: independent candidates, and that is not where gen Z sees

553
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: independent candidates. It's fascinating statistic and the question really is

554
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: is this something is the something to build on and

555
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: I do think it means that if you're going to

556
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: run as an independent, you really you know that your

557
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: best potential constituency is going to probably be voters under

558
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: forty five, which some argue is a is a harder

559
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: group of voters to get focused early in a campaign,

560
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: which an independent candidate sometimes needs. You can get to

561
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: those voters late, right when you're under the age of fifty.

562
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: You've got a lot of other things going on, raising kids,

563
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: do da da, you know, mixing all sorts of things,

564
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: and sometimes you don't tune in until late. Older voters

565
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: today know how they're voting in twenty twenty six, younger

566
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: voters don't yet know how they're going to vote because

567
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: they have busier, busier lives and they're still forming their opinions.

568
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: But I thought that was a fascinating point on that.

569
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,959
Speaker 1: And then the other is this question of whether is

570
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: there a I don't want to call it a legal loophole,

571
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: but is there a better way for the Green Party,

572
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: Libertarian Party, Working Families, Party, Forward Party, all of them

573
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: working together and filing essentially class action suits against all

574
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: these state parties that put up higher barriers. I don't

575
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: understand how you don't have an equal protection argument that basically, voters,

576
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: if you're not a registered D or R and you

577
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: want to either run for office or you either want

578
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: to participate in a primary in some of these states,

579
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: you're being disenfranchised and register have it being forced to

580
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: have to register with one of the two major parties

581
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: in order to either get ballot access or to participate

582
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: in a primary. It's a form of coercion. Right is

583
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: that legal? How is that constitutional? So anyway, it's the

584
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: question is whether all these entities could work together, could

585
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: do this, because ultimately we're not going to know if

586
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: independent candidates or a third party movement can really take

587
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: off unless they get an equal shot at getting on

588
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: the ballot. And right now, ballot access is usually the

589
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: biggest hurdle for many of these candidates. All right, let's

590
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: sneak in a quick break and when we come back

591
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: my conversation with Ben Smith, like I said, the quintessential

592
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: New Yorker, and I say that with nothing but respect

593
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: and compliment on that front, coming up, Ben Smith, well

594
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: joining me now is the editor in Cheap of Semaphore.

595
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 1: It is Ben Smith. I've known him in so many

596
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: of your iterations. I have multiple, many of yours exactly.

597
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: This is the world, the world that we occupy in

598
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: media and journalism. But looks semaphore is what do you

599
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: celebrating your third birthday? Pretty close?

600
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 2: I will be yeah, yeah, what is it today that

601
00:35:58,280 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: you didn't expect.

602
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: It to be nearly three years ago? Because I find

603
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: it interesting The goal was smart information for the English

604
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: speaking world pretty much? Right? Is that? My am? I?

605
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: You know? Is that? Is that? The is that one

606
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: line explainer? So where are we in your journey three

607
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: years later with Justin Smith who he and I have

608
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: sons who just graduated high school together, so we the

609
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: insular nature of the media in Washington and New York

610
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: is uh is going to come through in this conversation.

611
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: But I am where do you? Where are you today?

612
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,959
Speaker 1: And where did you think you would be three years ago? Yeah?

613
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: Well, congratulations on that check and also you know, on

614
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: your assent from being the editor of the Hotline, which

615
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 2: is what I heard, and it is yeah, we both

616
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: sort of lived through that unbelievably crazy period of history

617
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: in this in our profession, or like probably both of

618
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: us would have been had we met, you know, we

619
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: been in thirty years earlier and met thirty years ago,

620
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 2: we would have basically inside gied organizations rising in the ranks.

621
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: One hopes for that, and instead we've just done a

622
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: series of been saying different things.

623
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: And sort of written the wave of Well, as I

624
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: say about the story of media over the last one

625
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: hundred years, is new technology fragmentation consolidation. New technology fragmentation consolidation.

626
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: And you and I have lived through now two arguably

627
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: we're now are in our second fragmentation period. Right, Internet

628
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: one point oh was fragmentation number one. That was sort

629
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: of what the hotline was. That was in some ways

630
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: the end of one point zero is what Politico came

631
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: in and did that. And now streaming and where we

632
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: are now is sort of fragmentation. Independent journalism, whatever you

633
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: want to call it, is fragmentation two point zero. And

634
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: in some ways that's what semaphore right. You guys are

635
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: trying to challenge traditional media. I'm trying to do it

636
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: in my own way. And here we are, and as

637
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: I joke, and I think you guys probably feel the

638
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: same way. The goal is to be consolidator, not to

639
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: get consolidated. But if you get consolidated, it might not

640
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: be so bad either.

641
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: That's that's a very very good summary, right, and you

642
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 2: sort of yeah, I mean I think you may you

643
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: sort of left the old thing at the last possible

644
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: moment to get off the ship and are now, like

645
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: I think, here just in time to blow up and

646
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: get consolidated. So congratulations on it.

647
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it's funny you say that. I do feel

648
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: as if I grabbed the last lifeboat. There are times

649
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: I feel that way.

650
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: The uh but yeah, but so no, I mean, I

651
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 2: think you know somepore. You know, we launched, We launched,

652
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: I think as people were saying, hey, the web as

653
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 2: we knew it, in social media as we knew it

654
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: don't seem to be working quite so well as we thought.

655
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 2: And with a kind of with a thesis that we're

656
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 2: going to have to reach people one to one and

657
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: also that convening at events are going to be a

658
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 2: big part of this business and a big and sort

659
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: of the core of how you reach pop one to one.

660
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: That second thing has just been truer than we could

661
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 2: have imagined. Like we built these really in the short

662
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 2: period time, pretty huge. We have a Davos competitor in

663
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 2: Washington called the World Economy summit which you actually gatherather

664
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: maybe I think it was the biggest gathering of CEOs

665
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 2: in America this year, and we did it in April.

666
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 2: It'sn be a lot bigger next year. And so I

667
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: think the notion that you could sort of build a

668
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: news organization whose core was convening it was a little

669
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: exotic and has really been truer than we expect it

670
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: in a way, like we said it, but now we

671
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 2: have really like that's really what we're doing. And then

672
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: the notion that in a world with like where social

673
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 2: media is really untrustworthy and polarized, where the web is

674
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: really untrustworthy and polarized, you know that we could build

675
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 2: something and I think maybe more than we expected that. Like,

676
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 2: there's a group of people, and it's particularly like people

677
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: who make decisions in business and government elsewhere, who just

678
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 2: like can't afford to be lied to because for them

679
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: news is a tool they used to make decisions. And

680
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: most of the rest of news consumers. I think the

681
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: thesis of a lot of media companies is, oh, like,

682
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: this is entertainment for people. It doesn't have to be true,

683
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 2: it has to be emotionally engaging, and so like I

684
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: think there's a real split there, and we definitely have

685
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: taken that former path of like, we're news for people

686
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 2: who really probably know what their philosophy of the world is,

687
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 2: and we're probably not going to change that, but we

688
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 2: can inform them. We can open that, we can provide

689
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 2: different perspectives in different legitimate points of view and tell

690
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 2: them even what people who they despise think about this,

691
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 2: and that that's a really valuable service. We can tell them,

692
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 2: we can separate news from opinion. They're not out shopping

693
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: for new points of view on the world or for

694
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: new opinions for themselves. They're trying to understand what's going on.

695
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: You know, what I find refreshing in what you're doing

696
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: is that it's all free. There's no subscription, right, and

697
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: I mean this. You know there's no subscription at all.

698
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: And I know you've said, well, maybe in the future

699
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: I'll be a subscription model, but I am a huge

700
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: believer that paywalls are not going to solve the information

701
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: ecosystem problem. So explain why you decided to be free

702
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: for all and that you've not I think a lot

703
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: of people assume, well, you're going to be free for

704
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 1: now and then you're going to put up the paywall

705
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: and that's not happened. Explain that philosophy.

706
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would say that I do. I

707
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 2: don't view business models as philosophical, like I think in

708
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: news people tend to like talk their book and so

709
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: when I was at BuzzFeed, there was an impulse to

710
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: be like, look like, you know, free is democratizing. And

711
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 2: when I was at The New York Times, is an

712
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 2: impulse to say, look like, you're you are getting great

713
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: value out of this journalism, you should pay for it.

714
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: And you hear people in particularly there's a way of

715
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 2: people saying like, subscription is the only like pure way

716
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: to do journalism because you're not corrupted by advertisers, can

717
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 2: be you can really say what you think, you can

718
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 2: be honest.

719
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: Ask the New York Times about their captured base of

720
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: subscribers when James Bennett dared to green light and op

721
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: ed by Tom Cotton when it was a revolt of

722
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: their paid subscribers, and they panicked, And you're just sitting

723
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: there going, well, that's no different than advertiser capture. That's

724
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: audience capture.

725
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. And I think all basically

726
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 2: all these models in which you are paid to do

727
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: your work like have carry with them real risks that

728
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: it screws up the journalism and the best way to

729
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 2: maybe the best way to get away from is to

730
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: diversify and have a bunch and to be having a

731
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: bunch of different models to be. And I think my

732
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: view is I'm pretty agnostic about how you pay for

733
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: the journalism. I do think that we grew up in

734
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: this like utopian moment of just open information and free

735
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: information that was new that I mean, and you know,

736
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: I guess made a way that probably started with television

737
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: broadcast right broadcast was free as a matter of like

738
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 2: you can figure out how to make people pay for it.

739
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 2: I'm sure they would have if they could have. I'm

740
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 2: sure you know, the founders of CBS News, if they'd

741
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 2: figure out a way to make people pay, like the

742
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 2: BBC does. They come and they like raid your apartment

743
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 2: and they see if you have a television, and if

744
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 2: you do, they make you pay the license fee and

745
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 2: you can be in trouble if you don't. Like that's

746
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: literally how they do.

747
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: That's literally how it works there.

748
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Like the inspector will cut like literally bang

749
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: on your door. I knew people I lived there briefly

750
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 2: who would cover their televisions with like a with like

751
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 2: a blanket just in case, because they were trying to

752
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 2: get out of paying.

753
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: Wow. I had no idea. Wow, it's just a.

754
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: Few pounds a year. I mean's you know anyway, But

755
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 2: it's hard to make people pay for broadcasts. It's sort

756
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: of a technological matter. It used to be hard to

757
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: make people pay for the web. Netflix and Spotify trained

758
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 2: us all to pay. Yeah, I don't think. I mean,

759
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: I guess my own view is that figuring out ways

760
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: to employ people to gather trustworthy information is maybe even

761
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: is a big crisis. The availability of trust with information

762
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 2: is another big crisis. But I don't want to like

763
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 2: make it harder to pay journalists because I am ideological

764
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: of that thing too, I guess is my and and

765
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 2: for our for ourselves, like we're you know, we think

766
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 2: the advert we were having a great run in the

767
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: advertising business and the sponsorship business. And I don't have

768
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: any plans to charge subscriptions. But if I thought that

769
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: it would help me hire more journalists, so would do it.

770
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: No, And I, you know, I think there's a role

771
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: for that, Like when I think about the whole variety

772
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: of things, right when you you can't just be in

773
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: one category. Yeah, exactly, you know. To me, you know,

774
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: there's got to be a baseline that's available to everybody.

775
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 1: And then you know, look specialty things, you know, specialty newsletters,

776
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you want to have also?

777
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 2: And also there's more complicated things you can do, like

778
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: in your business. Like I just think that like you're

779
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: putting out, you're producing a good show that is streaming

780
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 2: rather than television, although the production values are just as

781
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 2: high as lots of what is on television. And in

782
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: five minutes, like Substack TV is going to come to

783
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 2: you and say, hey, we are television now and we'd

784
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: like to window your show, like we'll pay you to

785
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 2: get it two hours earlier, right or something.

786
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: No, I do think that that's where we're headed. You know,

787
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 1: the Pat McAfee model, that's going to be the model.

788
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I assume in a year the

789
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: pod Save America Boys will be on MSNBC. But they

790
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: won't work. But they won't work for MSNBC. They will

791
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: license them, right, they will let everybody's And this is

792
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: a question, and I'm curious if you believe this if

793
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:28,320
Speaker 1: we are in a temporary period where journalists and content creators,

794
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: because it's you know, they're they're related, but they're not

795
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: always one and the same. But let's put it in

796
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: one that they're all going to own their own work.

797
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: You know, I look at the you know, I'm doing

798
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: some work with Newsphere, which is which is another type

799
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: of model, which is and people it's a it's a

800
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: it's I'm really enjoying sort of just that learning about

801
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: that business model. And it's a different business model than substack.

802
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: But I do think there's going to be these different

803
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: because everybody that's on Newsphere owns their own material. They're

804
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: just used, they're just licensing to that platform. Do you

805
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: think that I think I think this is a generational

806
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: shift and this will be the way it works for

807
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: another decade or so. Are you convinced of this?

808
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm not sure what the

809
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 2: stakes are of whether you own or you know, whether

810
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: do you own this hour of us talking about we're

811
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 2: talking about, you know, eternal truth. So this will have

812
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 2: value for a long time. But much of what you

813
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: talk about is stuff that isn't that interesting. Tomorrow because

814
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: it's going to be overtaken by events. And so I think,

815
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 2: particularly in the news business, what it is to own

816
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: is a little overstated. And I think people are going

817
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,919
Speaker 2: to make financial decisions that are pretty boring about which

818
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 2: pays you more. And I think there's also like is

819
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: it ai training data? That's another form of ownership and

820
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 2: licensing that might make yesterday's show have a little more

821
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 2: value or not. But I think it's interesting. I mean,

822
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: I surprises me, actually, But Fox Corp. The parent company

823
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 2: of Fox News, is way ahead on this, like.

824
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,919
Speaker 1: They have been what they do with Fox Nation, back

825
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 1: with Tucker three years ago.

826
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 2: They did this, Yeah, but they did like a lot

827
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: of out Let's CN end of this too did like,

828
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: we have an app and it's gonna be like the

829
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 2: It's gonna be like the more boring stuff from Jake

830
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: Tapper's book club, God bless him. It's gonna be the

831
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,720
Speaker 2: stuff you don't want from our star talent the oh,

832
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 2: but the new version of it is going to be

833
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: this is our best stuff in an app. And what

834
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: Fox did? They acquire this podcast, right wing podcast called Ruthless. Yesterday,

835
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: they acquired a company called Red Seat Ventures, that is

836
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,720
Speaker 2: the production company for Here's Morgan Tucker, Carlson, Megan, Kelly,

837
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 2: Bill O'Reilly like they're starting to basically take what they have,

838
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 2: which is capital, Like they can pay you a bunch

839
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: of money and a real advertising sales operation and to

840
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: and basically between the and a bunch of distribution. I'm

841
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 2: like to be and I'm Fox, and you're going to

842
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: see these big media companies. Versut which used to be

843
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: MSNBC is going to figure is going to get around

844
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 2: to this soon. I gotta figure and we'll get around

845
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: to this, say like, oh, what we are is a

846
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 2: collection of shows and talent. That's what we've always been.

847
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: There's a new or you know what you're describing. You

848
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: know what you're describing Clear Channel from the nineties, huh

849
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: you know? And and it's where I mean, no, it didn't.

850
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: And the point is that iHeartRadio. I heard yeah they

851
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: ended up training. The point is is that this is

852
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: the way I've described where so there's sort of two

853
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: there's late stage cable TV right, which is essentially Fox

854
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: versut whatever the spin off from Warner Brothers is going

855
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,439
Speaker 1: to look like, which I assume and and I guess

856
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: paramount's going to. I assume they don't spin off, they

857
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: just sell to either the Warner brothers, uh can spin

858
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: off or versant. But it feels it's very similar. I've

859
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: described it. So I'll give you an example. You'll appreciate this.

860
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: When I was at National Journal in about two years

861
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: before you guys showed up when I mean you guys

862
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: Politico or what was it called for a brief period

863
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: before it was politically the Capitol leader of the capital Leader, right,

864
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: And there was a bunch of us that went to

865
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: David Bradley and went to John Fox Sullivan at the time,

866
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,759
Speaker 1: and said, hey, we should shut the magazine down and

867
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 1: put all of the efforts into Congress Daily, which was

868
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: a growing digital product and hotline. You know, we had

869
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: all we were we were, we were, and and it

870
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: was we had a huge debate about it, and it

871
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: was sort of the digital side was going, hey, you know,

872
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: and but there was a but there was a bunch

873
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: of revenue still available, and it was sort of like

874
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,479
Speaker 1: you didn't want to just throw away that big chunk

875
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 1: of money. Every think we were talking eight figures in revenue,

876
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 1: and you didn't want to You couldn't and yet everybody

877
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: agreed it was a diminishing asset. That it was that

878
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: eventually the trade association guys that bought all this full

879
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: page advertising in the magazine were going to retire and

880
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: be replaced by people who realized, no, no, no, no, you

881
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: don't want to advertise in a magazine. You want to

882
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: be in the digital product. But you never know when

883
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: to when to say no to that cash. And that's

884
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 1: what I think is happening with there's a certain amount

885
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: of money to be made in owning some of these

886
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: cable channels, probably for another just like there was with

887
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: FM radio in the nineties. Yeah.

888
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, the classic sort of innovator's dilemma. And that's why

889
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 2: you can see the Harvard Business School graduates who run WarnerMedia.

890
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 2: Oh maybe not in that case, but the basically, like

891
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 2: the business school guys are and women are looking at

892
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 2: these companies and saying, great, you've got a declining asset

893
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 2: here with a lot that's throwing off a lot of cash. Like,

894
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 2: get it off our books as quick, you sell it

895
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 2: for a lot of money as fast as you can,

896
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 2: because it's going to destroy the rest of the business.

897
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, And that's and that's exactly what Comcast and

898
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: wbd's figured out. Holy shit we need in sky dances,

899
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, these things. We all want to have

900
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,879
Speaker 1: those legacy products, right, and.

901
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: They're poison actually, and we have to get they're incredibly lucrative,

902
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 2: but they're going to ultimately destroy the whole company. And

903
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: so the essence, so you're just seeing people like Jettison

904
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 2: these incredibly lucrative cable networks as fascinating likely you know,

905
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 2: like they have no value. It's actually kind of fascinating.

906
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: And yet I don her that. Look, not everybody's going

907
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: to go away like what I always describe. And I'm

908
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: curious if you agree with this, which is, look, mainstream,

909
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: there's always a publication, there's always a version of mainstream

910
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: media that's dying. Right. Life Magazine was a major deal

911
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: until it wasn't right And at some point having a

912
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: magazine with the best photos around the country no longer

913
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: meant anything anymore, right because moving pictures was better and

914
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: we had color TV, and Life just sort of it stopped,

915
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 1: and you know, we didn't have this big pearl clutching

916
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 1: moment where we said, oh my god, mainstream media is dying.

917
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: Life Magazine is dead right. Like, the point is that

918
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: we just evolved, and I think we're having the same thing.

919
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: Cable news is probably going to evolve out of this.

920
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: But and maybe not all three major networks survive in

921
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: the next decade, but some of them will, right, and

922
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: they'll and and then there'll be new main you know,

923
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: and something on YouTube may become the thing. Maybe the

924
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: midast much becomes the next CBS News, right, you know that.

925
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 1: You know there was a time when CBS was a startup.

926
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, with our competitors around it, and you didn't know

927
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: which one was going to win.

928
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, you know I joke about Meet the Press

929
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: started as an advertisement for a magazine called American Mercury.

930
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: Is that right?

931
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: Yes, the radio show began. They just bought time. It was,

932
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: they bought that time on radio. It was like buying

933
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: an hour of time at that time and a half hour.

934
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: And it was brought to you by an American Mercury magazine. Huh,

935
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: which was owned right, which was owned owned by the

936
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: first by the then second host, if you will, fors

937
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: and wells of Meet the Press. No no, no, this said

938
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 1: the show yeah, yeah, anyway, and he owned and that

939
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: was something you know, he owned Meet the Press for

940
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: a long time until the NBC finally. Yeah, it was

941
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: an interesting arrangement.

942
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this stuff that we grew up feeling, we

943
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 2: sort of we sort of came up into a moment

944
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: when it all seems so stable, and that was itself

945
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 2: kind of an illusion.

946
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: That's the thing that I keep trying to you know,

947
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: I joke about this all the time in our politics.

948
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: I think if you grew up at the time we

949
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: grew up, we grew up during the Cold War, and

950
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: America was winning, and we won the Cold War. That

951
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 1: was a big deal. But the Cold War also stabilized

952
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: us as a country. It stabilized our politics. The two

953
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 1: parties agreed that we had to fight the Cold War.

954
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 1: They may disagree on how to do it, but everybody

955
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: agreed on what to do, and both parties kept their fringes.

956
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: And now, if you look at our politics today, it's

957
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: actually very similar to the politics pre World War Two,

958
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: and it's very similar to the politics of the entire

959
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: nineteenth century and the media and media partisan media, and

960
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: so in some ways, you and I I've always wondered,

961
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: did we grow up in an outlier period of the American.

962
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 2: Story totally, and I feel like it at times has

963
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 2: really like affected my news judgment back poorly, Like it

964
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 2: leaves you with a sort of constricted sense of imagination

965
00:53:58,920 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 2: about what could happen.

966
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,839
Speaker 1: No, it absolutely well. Let me it's funny you talk

967
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: about who you write for with some of for so

968
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: take the Epstein story. Yeah, I've noticed you have a

969
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: lot of the content creators are having are manufacturing Epstein

970
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: leads because that's how the distribution works, right, In order

971
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: to get tracked on any given day, you have to

972
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: ride what people are on the algorithm. That's not how

973
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,240
Speaker 1: I think, and that's not how you think. And yet

974
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: that's a business model for media, and it feels like

975
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: a messy one, not a great one.

976
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in this case, the model is just

977
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,399
Speaker 2: like spreading absolute lies to sell to get people's attention, right,

978
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: I mean, the Epstein one is to me, like I mean,

979
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 2: and I do think there's value to be had by

980
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 2: trying to explain what's actually going on here, which is,

981
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 2: you know, this is the most investigated story of the

982
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 2: last twenty years by every law enforcement agency, every night,

983
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,439
Speaker 2: every everybody who's listening to our phones, every journalist, every

984
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 2: great journalist and the and there's an enormous amount that's

985
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: been reported, and specifically Gawker posted the quote unquote Epstein

986
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 2: and whatever list. It's his address book. It's been on

987
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 2: the internet for like what twelve years. It was like

988
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 2: a medium sized scoop in the year twenty sixteen. And

989
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: you know, and the Washington Post and others have documented

990
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 2: in great detail his long and warm friendship with Donald J. Trump,

991
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 2: Like again like not only not a news story of

992
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 2: like the nineteen nineties, like you could ask to anybody

993
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: in New York like, oh, yeah, they're friends, like not

994
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: not secret in any way. And then all this other

995
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 2: stuff is basically made up, Like it's to me, like

996
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 2: this is pizza gate for people with college educations like

997
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein obviously horrific abuser of young women in Florida

998
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 2: in the early aughts. I think that's about blackmail. The

999
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 2: stuff abit. I mean, this is supported well.

1000
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 1: And this gets it to something that I think it's

1001
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: been very hard to explain to the average person, which

1002
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: is the importance of pedophilia in every single scandal that

1003
00:55:56,719 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: the right wing has tried to create about the left

1004
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: right in that Epstein like it's a weird thing. There's

1005
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 1: this weird Mike Flynn was gave voice to it on X.

1006
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: But I think that's what made the Epstein story such

1007
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: a such a magnet for that same craft.

1008
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 2: It's a dehumanizing right and the left, because to me,

1009
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 2: it's like this is like mephilia is it's like a

1010
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:21,839
Speaker 2: lizard brain like it just feels almost like because it's

1011
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: not just the right the left. It's the blood Lebels

1012
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 2: against the Jews. It's all the laft whers who think

1013
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 2: that Donald Trump is secretly trafficking in young women, right Like,

1014
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: it's to me like it's a conspiracy theory.

1015
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 1: Well, it's the ultimate de human Like, what's the what's

1016
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: the the minute you work somebody correct, right, and it

1017
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: becomes like the minute you throw it at somebody, it

1018
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if it's true or not. Right, deny the denial.

1019
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, that's like this horrible thing is

1020
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: stuck to you. And I think that's what's made it

1021
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: a popular sort of word to use to attack an

1022
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 1: opponent because it's immediately dehumanizing, right.

1023
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 2: Because it does happen into almost like a mythological level

1024
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 2: of like like I just think if you look back

1025
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,280
Speaker 2: through like human history, people have conspiracy theories about children

1026
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 2: being kidnapped. I mean, what's the pied piper?

1027
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 1: Right?

1028
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 2: Like like I just think this stuff is like really

1029
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,040
Speaker 2: deep in our psychees and people are sort of programmed

1030
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 2: to believe it, like we all are, and to pay

1031
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 2: attention to it, and it's hard to ignore and it

1032
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 2: like hooks into something really deep in how people think

1033
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 2: about that elites, like what are the elites?

1034
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,240
Speaker 1: What are the powerful people up to? And that's yes,

1035
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: it's funny, it's like and that's the And I guess

1036
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 1: the question when does this end? Because I would argue

1037
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: it's always been there. It's just yeah, the Internet mainstreamed it.

1038
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: The Internet mainstreamed it musks like musks sort of like

1039
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 2: gloves off, we're not censoring anything. X sort of really

1040
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 2: super charged it on the right And I don't really

1041
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 2: think I think that if you look back at what

1042
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 2: Aaron Burr was being accused of by Hamilton and why

1043
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 2: they dueled, Like I think, like really dark sexual smears

1044
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 2: are like very very deeply connected to global politics always

1045
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 2: and probably not and.

1046
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 1: They always happen.

1047
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, just we grew up in a rare era when

1048
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 2: they were being pushed back into the fringes.

1049
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: No, and this is where I come back where the

1050
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: Cold War. It turns out the only time we will

1051
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: act with some sensibility as a society is when there's

1052
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: an existential threat.

1053
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 2: And then honestly, like only sometimes.

1054
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: Well, not a pandemic. That's different. I do think pandemics

1055
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,040
Speaker 1: are different. In history has shown that that pandemics are

1056
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 1: actually always divisive. You know this idea that it's only

1057
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: newly divisive, please go read about nineteen seventeen. Hugely divisive,

1058
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 1: Like pandemics have always been divisive between those that individual

1059
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: it's that it's human, but it's human basically. Yeah, right,

1060
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: it's always been a human you know, individual rights versus

1061
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: collective action. Right, there's always been this this push and pull.

1062
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: Nobody has the finger on the pulse of New York

1063
00:58:57,160 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: City in the reporting world. I think like you do.

1064
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: You're a believer in New York being the center of everything.

1065
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: And I say this, and it's.

1066
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 2: Not so much a believer, it's just I mean, like

1067
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 2: it's like I believe that the way I believe I

1068
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 2: should breathe air.

1069
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: I understand that, and I get it. You know, I

1070
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: used to. I remember one time having a fight with Brenton.

1071
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 2: Say, I'm not making that claim, it's just.

1072
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 1: But you'll you'll appreciate this. I remember one time that

1073
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: they were showing the some local parade on the nightly

1074
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 1: news in New York and I said, why are you

1075
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: doing that? Are you going to show the parade in

1076
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: Chicago and in Saint Louis And he goes, and Brian goes, well,

1077
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: one in nine Americans have a connection to New York City.

1078
00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: And I said, so that means eight and nine Americans don't.

1079
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: It feels great? And it was right, right right. So

1080
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: there was this this whole back and forth. But I

1081
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: set this up because this is one time where I

1082
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 1: am going to agree with you. What happens in New

1083
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: York City is going to reverberate around the world. In

1084
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 1: this election, I think this is as big of a

1085
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: of a of an election as we had that's not

1086
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: a presidential in a long time. I mean the Mamdani election.

1087
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 1: I think is this is potentially this significant for the

1088
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 1: future of New York City. But I'm curious if you

1089
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: share that view.

1090
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:14,400
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting. I think it will really reverberate

1091
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 2: all those sort of for the wrong reasons, like as

1092
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 2: is often true, sure, like what's happening in New York

1093
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 2: is very weird at local Like the path through which

1094
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 2: this guy shot up to the Democratic nomination and now

1095
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 2: can't be stopped because you know, because he's facing the

1096
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 2: worst candidates in the world is like very specific and

1097
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: I think not necessarily emblematic of what's happening. If you

1098
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 2: look at the Senate primary in New Jersey across the

1099
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 2: river where Mike No, it's not really it's really representative

1100
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 2: anything except that you really do see and you just

1101
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: feel it here that the only people who have any

1102
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 2: energy are is the real left, is the hard left.

1103
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 2: In the same way I think that you could feel

1104
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 2: in Republican politics that the only people who who had

1105
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,919
Speaker 2: any energy was the Trump movement. Like that, and there's

1106
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: really there's passion, and there's energy, and it's young people

1107
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 2: and they're not going to adore and they have figure

1108
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 2: and they and the thing that mcdanie really has, which

1109
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 2: I think the kind of previous iterations of the young

1110
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 2: Left really didn't, is how to communicate with working people,

1111
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 2: with people who don't share their ideology, with people who

1112
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 2: aren't interested in ideology with people who don't want to

1113
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 2: learn some new language to talk about the world and

1114
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 2: talk about politics. Mamdani doesn't come, is not trying to

1115
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:34,480
Speaker 2: persuade you of anything in particular about gender. He's not

1116
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 2: really interested in talking about the control of the means

1117
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: of production. He's not like, you know, I mean, if

1118
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 2: you read that, if you're like, if you are someone

1119
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 2: who like thinks maybe capitalism is good, you should like

1120
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 2: and you read the DSA manifesto like your hair will

1121
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: stand on end. But Mamdani's not out there reading from

1122
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 2: the DSA manifesto. He you know, he's in some ways

1123
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 2: of a very normal politician. I think in a way,

1124
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:58,919
Speaker 2: I think the tradition that he's in in New York

1125
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 2: is actually the other the last socialist mayor we had,

1126
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 2: who was Firella LaGuardia, Like I don't know if he

1127
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 2: will pull that off, but LaGuardia was divisive and similar

1128
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 2: ways actually was of the left in a pretty deep way.

1129
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 2: But also it was like relentlessly focused on like building

1130
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 2: stuff and moving stuff around and cleaning up the garbage,

1131
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 2: which is what these meanest blopses actually are.

1132
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 1: I think I've always said I think the most the

1133
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: most impressive thing to me in government is how much

1134
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: garbage New York City deals with every day.

1135
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 2: I probably badly. You know, we just put it in

1136
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 2: the fucking street, Like we just literally like we just

1137
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 2: dump it in the street. No one else in the

1138
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 2: world does this. We just piles the garbage in the

1139
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: streets and then the rats did it, and it smells.

1140
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 2: It's terrible.

1141
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 1: But for the most part, it gets cleaned up every day. Yeah,

1142
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 1: for the most part, it's gone. Like I'm like, it's

1143
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: one of those you're like, holy you know, I don't

1144
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: know another community. You know, we sit here and we

1145
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: you know, I always say, the sit here in you know,

1146
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: we love to beat the crap out of government. Government

1147
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 1: doesn't do this. Government doesn't do that. And then I'll say,

1148
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you a piece of paper and a

1149
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: dollar bill. Can you take it across country in three days?

1150
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,400
Speaker 1: You know, our government actually pulls that off for less

1151
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:15,919
Speaker 1: than a dollar And it's quite remarkable. And I sort

1152
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: of feel that, you know, we take for granted sometimes

1153
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:23,080
Speaker 1: these mundane things that government does almost without us noticing.

1154
01:03:24,600 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the New York government, I mean, you know,

1155
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I mean there's a shocking amount

1156
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 2: to me of optimism about Mom Donnie in town among people.

1157
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: Who there's no choice but to have optimism because he's

1158
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 1: gonna win. Yeah, not the problem. I mean Cuomo and Adams,

1159
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean you sit there, You're like, you know, I

1160
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: cannot believe that New York's political elite just sat on

1161
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: the sidelines while Cuomo came in and ran. What was

1162
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,160
Speaker 1: anybody thinking if two of the leaders of the Democratic

1163
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: Party are both from Brooklyn and they just what did

1164
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:56,919
Speaker 1: they put like ear muffs on? They wanted to pay

1165
01:03:56,920 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 1: no attention to what was happening. It was it is

1166
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: the biggest sort of leadership failure of a political party

1167
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 1: that was happening right in their backyard, and they paid

1168
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: no attention to it until it was too late.

1169
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true. And Schumer jeffres could have said, hey,

1170
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 2: can't the guy is this other person and almost anyone else,

1171
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 2: and Cuomo took Coo became the establishment candidate. And now

1172
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 2: we're in this situation where the people who everybody in

1173
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,560
Speaker 2: New York hates most, which are billionaires who spat off

1174
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 2: on Twitter all the time, and they're going to basically

1175
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 2: saying I'm gonna we are going to take not actually

1176
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 2: enough money to make it work, which is, by the way,

1177
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 2: a billion dollars that's what Bloomberg spent, but a totally

1178
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 2: trivile all amount of money, which isn't even enough because

1179
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 2: New York is so expensive, so big, Like you want

1180
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:40,200
Speaker 2: to buy TV ads in New York, they're going to

1181
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 2: put like fifteen million dollars in. That's what like T

1182
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 2: mobile spends in like fifteen minutes. You know, Like it's

1183
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 2: just not it's not It might get you a couple

1184
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 2: of taxicab to try to bribe you to take some

1185
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 2: disgraced elderly gentleman, whether it's Adams or Cuomo. They're deciding

1186
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 2: which one to try to force down the throats of

1187
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 2: the kind of you know of New York voters who

1188
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 2: are kind of cynical about that exact move. Like I

1189
01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 2: actually think when people saw flyers and saw TV ads

1190
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 2: from these super pecs supporting Cuomo, I think regular voters thought, oh,

1191
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 2: this is who the billionaires are. Sorry, this is the

1192
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 2: corrupt old guy the billionaires want us to vote for it. Like,

1193
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 2: I think that's a real dynamic and problem. And Mam

1194
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 2: Donnie like Trump, who was a very underfunded candidate in

1195
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 2: certain ways, pointed to the big money supporting his opponent

1196
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 2: and said, look at this, and people kind of got it.

1197
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I never, I mean it was like,

1198
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: look at the choices. Never, And I don't know, is

1199
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 1: it is it just New York City is New York

1200
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:43,040
Speaker 1: City government just not sexy enough for well intentioned people

1201
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 1: to run for. I mean, what happened to the woman

1202
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: who finished second? She seemed to me like, I go back.

1203
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: I'm I think the sanitation Department's the most impressive department

1204
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 1: in New York City. So you know, you're like, you

1205
01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 1: know what, you get that done? All right? I'm just

1206
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, you know it done well.

1207
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 2: She was a solid civil servant, widely viewed as either

1208
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 2: the second or third best sanitation commissioner of the last

1209
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:10,040
Speaker 2: ten years. Like okay, we're not talking about like the

1210
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 2: and actually there were decent candidates. Brad Lander the controller,

1211
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 2: good candidate. There was like a young yimbie candidate the

1212
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 2: energy is on the left and Mamdani like captured. There

1213
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:21,120
Speaker 2: was something. Really, this wasn't like an accident. He would

1214
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 2: have been I think in a different constellation with a

1215
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 2: stronger establishment contender than Ry Party. My Bay might still

1216
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,560
Speaker 2: have one, like there was something, there was something really

1217
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 2: real happening there.

1218
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 1: If I Keem Jeffries weren't basically the next potential Democratic speaker,

1219
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:40,640
Speaker 1: I think he is the candidate that people want to

1220
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: run for mayor now. I mean, although I think he's

1221
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 1: five years ago I thought, yeah, I thought he was

1222
01:06:44,880 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: going to that would be his next move.

1223
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, he could have been. He is sort of an

1224
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 2: unknown figure in New York. It's interesting because he's a

1225
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 2: very important national figure, but he's not. He's he's always

1226
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 2: been a kind of behind the scenes player, not a

1227
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:57,959
Speaker 2: public figure. But he's a classic legislative leader in that way.

1228
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 2: But I think he could probably walk down the read

1229
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 2: in many parts of New York and I own to

1230
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:02,000
Speaker 2: know who.

1231
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 1: He was interesting, and that's just because he's just not

1232
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 1: forced himself to be a New York presence. Way even

1233
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:11,480
Speaker 1: a Schumer did right, Schumer.

1234
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 2: Wanted Schumer is unmissible. Yeah, my favorite, my favorite line

1235
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 2: about Schumer, which is a John is a roast. John Corzin,

1236
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 2: then the Senator for for from New Jersey, said that

1237
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 2: the that that sharing a media market with Chuck Schumer

1238
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 2: was like sharing a banana with a monkey. First he

1239
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 2: eats the banana, then he flings his speces at you.

1240
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that Schubert did not appreciate it.

1241
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure he didn't. I'm sure he didn't. What is

1242
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 1: are you surprised he still wants to be the Senate leader?

1243
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 1: Like it does feel like he's staying past his cell

1244
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:50,800
Speaker 1: by date. And when you stay past your cell by date,

1245
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: you risk, as Joe Biden is finding out, you risk

1246
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 1: really harming your own legacy unnecessarily.

1247
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think he probably feels like a

1248
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 2: lot of these got a lot of legislive leaders, in

1249
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 2: particular the Biden thing. Executives are different, but legislative leaders

1250
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 2: you do build this kind of very specialized skill set,

1251
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:13,480
Speaker 2: which is these relationships with you know, fifty forty eight

1252
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,720
Speaker 2: or fifty two very powerful, very eccentric people, and you

1253
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:19,800
Speaker 2: think no one else could do this job. And like

1254
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 2: you see why he thinks that, right, Like, sure, that's

1255
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 2: a really strange, hard job.

1256
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:25,800
Speaker 1: Like, no, it is because you are well you just

1257
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,759
Speaker 1: described it well. Most of its time is talking people

1258
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:30,320
Speaker 1: off cliffs.

1259
01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, like and right, and like, how do you get

1260
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:35,640
Speaker 2: Chris Murphy ish shut up about Palestine today like I

1261
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:38,000
Speaker 2: don't know, right, like like, but you do it because

1262
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,240
Speaker 2: like there's this other thing in Connecticut, like who knows,

1263
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:43,600
Speaker 2: but it's knowing that's kind of stuff about these specific

1264
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 2: people and then being able to raise tons of money.

1265
01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:47,720
Speaker 2: And so I think he probably thinks nobody else could

1266
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 2: do this job.

1267
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: If AOC runs for president, what you you sort of

1268
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 1: you know, are the very checked out of ten years

1269
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 1: ago would have said, nobody from New York City is

1270
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: going to be elected president the United States?

1271
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 2: Well, obviously much less a backbench socialists congresswoman.

1272
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,600
Speaker 1: Right exactly, I'm not ruling anything out for all the

1273
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,960
Speaker 1: reasons you just subscribed about, mom, Donnie, which is Trump.

1274
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:16,720
Speaker 1: Trump did everything the exact opposite of what Republicans thought

1275
01:09:16,760 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 1: they should do in order to win in sixteen, and

1276
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,920
Speaker 1: he won, and more importantly, he's reanimated a party. The

1277
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: Republican Party is now larger than the Democratic Party. And

1278
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 1: they did it by going harder right, not a softer right,

1279
01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: which was of course what was Mitt Romney. The post

1280
01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:34,120
Speaker 1: Mitt Romney recommendation was no, no, no, no, you got to

1281
01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 1: get softer. No. He went harder, and he diversified the

1282
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 1: party and he made it different. You know, for whatever

1283
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 1: you think, it's a different Republican party, but he changed it.

1284
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,440
Speaker 1: He changed the electorate more than he's changed the elected officials.

1285
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,160
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to sit here and say that. So,

1286
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 1: you know, what do you expect? What kind of national

1287
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 1: candidate do you expect her to be? And do you assume,

1288
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:59,240
Speaker 1: by the way, how I assume she's running, do you

1289
01:09:59,240 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 1: you know?

1290
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 2: I guess I think that she's obviously she'd be crazy

1291
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 2: not to think hard about it. And I think part

1292
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,439
Speaker 2: of it is, you know, she initially had a really

1293
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 2: I think hard time dealing with the spotlight. Like there

1294
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 2: was like you know, there were a lot of threats

1295
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 2: against her, A lot of that I think really rattled

1296
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:15,400
Speaker 2: her personally and and and you saw her kind of

1297
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 2: step back. And I do think like running for president is,

1298
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:22,720
Speaker 2: you know, you really changes your life forever. And I

1299
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 2: don't know where and I don't know where she is

1300
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 2: on that. I think that's a real consideration for anybody.

1301
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 2: And she may want family and this is like she

1302
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 2: had people family mode. People underestimate the extent to which

1303
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 2: like real personal decisions are a factor in it. I

1304
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:37,519
Speaker 2: do think she shares with Trump at this point in fact,

1305
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 2: she's a real celebrity and that she's actually like better,

1306
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 2: She's better with this than people realize.

1307
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 1: Like people, I think she's want to I call her

1308
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 1: a politically I like to use the phrase political athlete.

1309
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:48,400
Speaker 2: I think she's the real thing.

1310
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's one of the best in a big.

1311
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:53,679
Speaker 2: Room, in a small room. She also shares with Mom Donnie.

1312
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 2: And you know, people don't realize this because, like with Trump,

1313
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 2: she's out there talking all the time. Whatever the most

1314
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:02,879
Speaker 2: divisive she says, it is get as with Trump, gets clipped.

1315
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 2: And so with Trump, what his enemy's missed was how

1316
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:07,479
Speaker 2: funny he was. He's all you would see was some

1317
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,439
Speaker 2: clip of him saying something like totally bananas. Half the time,

1318
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 2: it was in the context of a joke that the

1319
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 2: and part of the joke was that the media is

1320
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 2: going to clip this and take it out of context.

1321
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 2: But you, my true follower, are in on the joke

1322
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 2: with me, right, And so, like, I think people missed

1323
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 2: a lot of his appeal because they processed him through

1324
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 2: short clips and similarly theyoc you can find clips of

1325
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 2: her saying very very strident stuff. She's very she actually

1326
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:33,599
Speaker 2: shares with Mom Donnie, like her style of communications is

1327
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 2: not hyper polarizing. It is about like try, it's not

1328
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,639
Speaker 2: about finding the sort of buzziest buzzword. It's the most

1329
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:44,680
Speaker 2: alienating way to speak to people. She's very, very talented,

1330
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 2: and I do think that the question is which I

1331
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 2: think with Mom Donnie, there was also a sense and

1332
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:51,640
Speaker 2: I just like hear this from people who I have

1333
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:53,639
Speaker 2: a very specific conversation with somebody we both know who's

1334
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,160
Speaker 2: voting for Mom Donnie, that I was like legitimately shocked

1335
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 2: that she has voted for Mom Donnie last night. Yeah,

1336
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 2: like not a person of the left like at all,

1337
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,120
Speaker 2: like a person of the you know, active person of

1338
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 2: the Democratic center. And I do think, you know, there's

1339
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:12,640
Speaker 2: this sense of just like like this this is like

1340
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 2: the particularly after the sort of Biden train wreck, we

1341
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 2: got to sweep everything aside. We've got to the whole

1342
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 2: system is broken. We got to blow it up. We

1343
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:22,800
Speaker 2: need new people. This guy is an instrument for that.

1344
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, the question is how many

1345
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 2: Democratic voters.

1346
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:29,680
Speaker 1: I remember a lot of Republicians, by the way, I

1347
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:31,640
Speaker 1: heard a lot of Republican voters six and going, I

1348
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: don't I know who Trump is. I know he's full

1349
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:36,360
Speaker 1: of shit, but you know what, Yeah, we need to

1350
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:39,360
Speaker 1: blow this up, and he's he's going to blow it up, right,

1351
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:40,559
Speaker 1: and they want it Like I.

1352
01:12:40,479 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 2: Don't like him, but he's a hand grenade and we're

1353
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 2: going to throw this into Washington, and Mom Donnie might

1354
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 2: be the hand grenade. Yeah, AOC or AOC is president

1355
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 2: presidential candidate. Like like I think that if you just

1356
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:53,840
Speaker 2: hate everything, and you know that like all the like

1357
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,040
Speaker 2: the sort of establishment hates her, that just like even

1358
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 2: if you think all our policies are dumb, you might

1359
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:00,720
Speaker 2: you could imagine people thinking like, wow, she's really going

1360
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:02,400
Speaker 2: to make those people on TV mad.

1361
01:13:03,200 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 1: Well, which is you know, I've I spent a lot

1362
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 1: of time in northwest Florida and which is a very

1363
01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 1: conservative part of the conservative part of a conservative state.

1364
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 1: And you know, I've had people say, you know, Trump

1365
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:18,200
Speaker 1: was my middle finger, you know, to all you guys,

1366
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:21,519
Speaker 1: you know, and so in a form, you know, in

1367
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 1: a way, Mom Donnie could be that.

1368
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 2: I mean to put a point on it, though, I

1369
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:27,840
Speaker 2: think the Democratic Party of your primer is going to

1370
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:28,719
Speaker 2: start in South Carolina.

1371
01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 1: You and I don't believe that. I don't believe that.

1372
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 2: I believe you go back to New Hampshire.

1373
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:35,880
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think it may stop Iowa.

1374
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 1: The likelihood Iowa a lexa democratic governors in the thirty

1375
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:42,160
Speaker 1: to forty percent range. They have a legit guy, and

1376
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of a mess on the right and it's

1377
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:47,439
Speaker 1: the same sort of setup as what happened in Kansas.

1378
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,280
Speaker 1: Everybody's pissed off about school funding. It's one of those

1379
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 1: hyper local school funding has. You know, all, here's the

1380
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,160
Speaker 1: problem in these conservative states that are that are have

1381
01:13:57,240 --> 01:14:00,840
Speaker 1: a lot of rural areas. School choice in theory sounds good,

1382
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 1: but then if you live in certain areas, your choice

1383
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 1: is homeschool or the school right there isn't really a choice.

1384
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:10,880
Speaker 1: And Iowa was always very proud of its public school system.

1385
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 1: I always always had a very strong one. When you

1386
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:15,800
Speaker 1: look at those national rankings, it was like Massachusetts its one,

1387
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:18,880
Speaker 1: Iowa was always in the top five. So yeah, and

1388
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:22,639
Speaker 1: he's a pretty conservative d right, he knows his state,

1389
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:25,920
Speaker 1: he was elected statewide. If he wins, I think the

1390
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 1: DNC goes back and sucks it up and realizes, you

1391
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 1: know what, it's better for the party to start in

1392
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 1: Iowa because you got to learn to talk to rural

1393
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:34,559
Speaker 1: America and it's the right.

1394
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:36,400
Speaker 2: Sure, and you're gonna have you know, you're you're going

1395
01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:39,000
Speaker 2: to have a bunch of like Josh Shapiro is out

1396
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:42,040
Speaker 2: there like developing like kind of like Cornpone accents talking

1397
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:42,400
Speaker 2: to world.

1398
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:45,879
Speaker 1: Guess what figured it out and win the caucuses.

1399
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, when the caucuses just like dominate to moins, it's

1400
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:51,720
Speaker 2: like Obama emphasis, Yeah. And so I guess I think

1401
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:53,839
Speaker 2: whether it starts there, I just think wherever it starts,

1402
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 2: you can kind of take because I think people always

1403
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,439
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just the preaternal truth that people imagine

1404
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 2: in the national primary and the and it's really a narrative.

1405
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,200
Speaker 2: And you can certainly tell yourself a story where AMC

1406
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:07,840
Speaker 2: comes in, she wins Iowa, jses New Hampshire and then

1407
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 2: goes to South Carolina. And I think people like one

1408
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:12,040
Speaker 2: of the really interesting things in the mom Donnie races

1409
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 2: that younger black voters are not voting like older black voters, And.

1410
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 1: Well, are we going to see that? We've never seen

1411
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:19,680
Speaker 1: it yet in South Carolina? Will we see it?

1412
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, right, but I think there is you

1413
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 2: could tell yourself a story where like you're starting to

1414
01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 2: where there's this I think seasoned political hack reporters like

1415
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 2: us think like, you know what, like South Carolina is

1416
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 2: like mostly older, church going, more women, Black voters, and

1417
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:35,880
Speaker 2: that's the only people who vote, and it pulls the

1418
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 2: party back towards the center.

1419
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:40,760
Speaker 1: That's where Bernie Sanders went to die, right right.

1420
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:45,719
Speaker 2: The progressives like just like fundamentally failed to connect with

1421
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:48,360
Speaker 2: that group of kind of working people. They're more likely

1422
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:50,760
Speaker 2: to have for Donald Trump than Bernie Sanders at some level.

1423
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:53,280
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's an eternal truth. I think

1424
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:56,320
Speaker 2: one of your seat mom, Donnie didn't beat Cuomo in

1425
01:15:56,400 --> 01:15:57,880
Speaker 2: black districts like Cuomo, but.

1426
01:15:58,360 --> 01:15:59,719
Speaker 1: He almost the mayor of Harlem.

1427
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:02,880
Speaker 2: But he did went on to well, it's confusing because

1428
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 2: harlemsless black than he used to be about like it's

1429
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 2: the but but Mamdani picked up a lot of like

1430
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:13,679
Speaker 2: younger and working votes, picked up a lot of South

1431
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 2: Asian votes, and then picked up and just he cut

1432
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:20,280
Speaker 2: he he brought CMO's margins down in the places that

1433
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 2: Cuomo really needed to win with working black vote, with

1434
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 2: younger Black voters. And I think like maybe our sort

1435
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,759
Speaker 2: of some of our assumptions about the way democratic politics

1436
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 2: work might be a little off and in a way

1437
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:32,800
Speaker 2: that could favor the left.

1438
01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:36,800
Speaker 1: No, I'm i am. In some ways it's refreshing. I've

1439
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,560
Speaker 1: never been more sort of like I'm I am operating

1440
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 1: on a you know, don't you know. Don't make any

1441
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 1: assumptions about previous history. Anything. Yeah, anything is possible. And

1442
01:16:47,840 --> 01:16:50,439
Speaker 1: here's the reality. The last three of the last four

1443
01:16:50,479 --> 01:16:53,439
Speaker 1: times the Democrats have elected a president, the person who

1444
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 1: won was not being talked about at this point in time.

1445
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 1: In the conversation in nineteen seventy three, nobody was talking

1446
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 1: about Jimmy Carter. In nineteen eighty nine, nobody was talking

1447
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 1: about Bill Clinton. And in two thousand and five, the

1448
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 1: Barack Obama conversation was a point, maybe he'll be Hillary

1449
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,320
Speaker 1: Clinton's running me, you know, maybe he'll be or maybe

1450
01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:12,280
Speaker 1: he'll run for governor of Illinois and then run for

1451
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 1: president in twenty twelve, but they weren't. Fully it was

1452
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 1: really all about her, right, And so the point is

1453
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:22,000
Speaker 1: is that, you know, and Pete Boodagic. Did anybody talk

1454
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,880
Speaker 1: about Pete Bootaget after his failed DNC race other than

1455
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: he was really good on television interviews? Maybe you ought

1456
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:30,240
Speaker 1: to do something more right, and all of a sudden

1457
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:35,599
Speaker 1: he runs for president and look without COVID, I still

1458
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:38,559
Speaker 1: think that thing comes down to Buddhajid and Sanders, not by.

1459
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:44,360
Speaker 2: So who who aren't we talking about right now?

1460
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 1: Well, if we were talking about him, then they wouldn't

1461
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,360
Speaker 1: be there right like in someone. But that's my point.

1462
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:52,760
Speaker 1: I think I think it's possible somebody who comes close

1463
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,880
Speaker 1: to winning but doesn't in twenty six you know, like

1464
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:59,240
Speaker 1: betto O'Rourke in twenty eighteen, like you could picture, there's

1465
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,519
Speaker 1: going to be different new candidates that can capture that

1466
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:07,679
Speaker 1: all Rourke lost and had a enough juice to.

1467
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 2: The general.

1468
01:18:11,640 --> 01:18:14,000
Speaker 1: All right, here's the does he run for governor?

1469
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 2: How Eric Adams pulls it off and he runs for

1470
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:19,599
Speaker 2: governor and just keeps running Yeah, yeah, and then runs

1471
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:22,759
Speaker 2: for president? Right yeah, And I mean it's the point

1472
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 2: is that that's not a crazy notion that that you

1473
01:18:25,439 --> 01:18:27,200
Speaker 2: could see, you could see that happen.

1474
01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:29,439
Speaker 1: Final topic I want to hit with you and then

1475
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 1: I'll let you go, and that is I think the

1476
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:37,120
Speaker 1: most fascinating issue in the in the next Democratic primary

1477
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: is going to be Israel and the divide and that

1478
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:45,200
Speaker 1: that's going to be. That's going to be the divide

1479
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 1: that probably gets overcovered by people like you and I.

1480
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:50,800
Speaker 1: Right the grid we're you know, we're we're probably going

1481
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:53,599
Speaker 1: to over index on it, fairly or unfairly, but in

1482
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:55,559
Speaker 1: some ways it will be when you.

1483
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 2: Say a lot like you and I, do you mean

1484
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:58,639
Speaker 2: Jewish Jewish reporters?

1485
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, Right, that's the point, like, no

1486
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:04,840
Speaker 1: matter what you know, suddenly our religion matters when we're

1487
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:07,799
Speaker 1: covering that issue, but not others. But anyway, but I digress.

1488
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:12,240
Speaker 1: But look, it's look, it's always been tough for Jewish

1489
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 1: Americans that like, hey, we think you know, you can

1490
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 1: not like BB and B pro Israel, right, the idea

1491
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,600
Speaker 1: that there is a middle ground. But I don't know

1492
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:23,960
Speaker 1: if if the Democratic primary electorate is willing to have

1493
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:26,400
Speaker 1: that nuanced debate. And I think it just I just

1494
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 1: think it's going to be an unpredictable litmus test. And

1495
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:36,320
Speaker 1: I don't know what what's the right answer as far

1496
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:38,160
Speaker 1: as the politics of this going forward in the next

1497
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:38,719
Speaker 1: couple of years.

1498
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:42,439
Speaker 2: I mean, I think people who worked with Done end

1499
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:45,600
Speaker 2: up thinking that the Israel stuff was a netlux the

1500
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:49,640
Speaker 2: more net plus there's an anti Israel, that there is

1501
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 2: an anti Israel plurality or majority in that primary electorate.

1502
01:19:53,680 --> 01:19:55,240
Speaker 2: By the way, lots of Republicans say it is real

1503
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:58,080
Speaker 2: too good news. So, like, I think it's a I

1504
01:19:58,120 --> 01:19:58,960
Speaker 2: think you'll see.

1505
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:05,160
Speaker 1: You se populism. Every time there's a right of populism,

1506
01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:08,960
Speaker 1: the first people targeted are the Jews left or right.

1507
01:20:09,040 --> 01:20:11,600
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's yep for sure. No mean sort of

1508
01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:13,840
Speaker 2: tied up with this idea around it. Yeah, anyway, But

1509
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 2: and mom Donnie, on one hand, I think was really

1510
01:20:16,880 --> 01:20:19,680
Speaker 2: unfair like the like was in some ways unfairly accused

1511
01:20:19,800 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 2: of over at andty semitism, of having said globalized the

1512
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:25,840
Speaker 2: antie fodo and in fact he gave like a very

1513
01:20:25,880 --> 01:20:31,040
Speaker 2: Bill Clintonian nonsense defense I've never said it whatever, Like

1514
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 2: it's not what he ran on. But on the other hand,

1515
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:36,360
Speaker 2: he is a very like convict committed pro Palestine activist

1516
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:37,960
Speaker 2: right like if for all his lean and can talk

1517
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:40,880
Speaker 2: about these issues very surefootedly and fluently because he's been

1518
01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:45,160
Speaker 2: doing it for fifteen years. And and I think it's

1519
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 2: so I think, I mean, one question is how salient

1520
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:49,640
Speaker 2: will be right, But I think right now it's a

1521
01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:52,560
Speaker 2: hugely salient issue and Democrats are increasingly andy Israel, and

1522
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:54,600
Speaker 2: I think there's you're gonna have You're gonna think what

1523
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:56,679
Speaker 2: I bet. I think you'll have a sort of normal

1524
01:20:56,680 --> 01:21:00,639
Speaker 2: democratic platform that when elected, I'm not going to cut

1525
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:02,360
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not saying I'll cut funding the Israel,

1526
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 2: but I want to pause funding and do a review

1527
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 2: the way Trump just did with ukrit right, like we

1528
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 2: want to do We're gonna want to review how our

1529
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 2: age Israel is being used. I bet it's a formula

1530
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 2: like that, and you're going to see like that because like, yeah,

1531
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:16,320
Speaker 2: I think you know, do you want to Are you

1532
01:21:16,320 --> 01:21:17,439
Speaker 2: going to keep funding the Netnia?

1533
01:21:17,479 --> 01:21:20,160
Speaker 1: Who wore? What does rama? Manually? Like this question that's

1534
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:22,760
Speaker 1: been the you know, and when it comes.

1535
01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 2: Close, he tries, he tries to threw the needle and

1536
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:25,200
Speaker 2: it doesn't work.

1537
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 1: No, I agree, I don't know.

1538
01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 2: But when I watched that news New York results came in,

1539
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:35,400
Speaker 2: my first reaction was like by like, like, forget Rum's

1540
01:21:35,439 --> 01:21:39,320
Speaker 2: presidential campaign and AOC is gonna go, Wow, there's almost

1541
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:40,280
Speaker 2: future cycles.

1542
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's I it's one of, to me, the

1543
01:21:43,520 --> 01:21:46,479
Speaker 1: hardest hurdle for him to overcome, and there's nothing he

1544
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:47,360
Speaker 1: can do about it.

1545
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 2: Right, And it reminds me a little of Trump in

1546
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:53,559
Speaker 2: the Iraq War, right, like when he just said, like

1547
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:55,280
Speaker 2: that war, you know, you're an idiot, that your brother

1548
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 2: was an idiot, that war was a terrible mistake or

1549
01:21:57,120 --> 01:21:59,840
Speaker 2: whatever he said, and it was sort of this unsayable

1550
01:21:59,880 --> 01:22:02,799
Speaker 2: thingying that turned out to be quite obviously popular inside

1551
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 2: that party. I think is real. I think just the

1552
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:08,799
Speaker 2: partly it's just the nature of our incredibly polarized system

1553
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:12,760
Speaker 2: that the more closer Trump hugs and Yahoo, the more

1554
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 2: idiou is Wrael the Democrats are going to become. And

1555
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:17,000
Speaker 2: yet but also but also I think it's but I

1556
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:19,400
Speaker 2: also think it's a feature of a sort of political

1557
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:22,720
Speaker 2: media campaign to silence pro Bellstadian voices. Like obviously that

1558
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:25,800
Speaker 2: is a real thing, and what you see, like if

1559
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:28,760
Speaker 2: there's any lesson of like how does it work when

1560
01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:31,600
Speaker 2: the when powerful forces try to silence the speech like

1561
01:22:32,040 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 2: are we like we're like you know, how did how

1562
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:36,400
Speaker 2: did that work? With vaccines? Like we're now like incredibly

1563
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:39,280
Speaker 2: like an insanely anti vaccine country. Well, so I look

1564
01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:40,840
Speaker 2: at the deep platform, it's going to.

1565
01:22:40,880 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 1: Work, right, I've always said the biggest mistake trying to

1566
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,680
Speaker 1: deplatform Trump. What did he do? He built his own ecosystem,

1567
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 1: and now everybody's panicked that there's an alternative US.

1568
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:51,640
Speaker 2: I know, and I do think it's strange to me

1569
01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:54,720
Speaker 2: that the people who actually really won that fight, the

1570
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:59,080
Speaker 2: people on the far right, the anti vaccine people, are

1571
01:22:59,160 --> 01:23:02,960
Speaker 2: now in many cases, like you, like, you know, are

1572
01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 2: pushing very hard to silence voices they disagree with, not

1573
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:07,960
Speaker 2: really understanding where this is going to go.

1574
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:10,120
Speaker 1: No, I mean they're very very I think.

1575
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:11,439
Speaker 2: It's gonna be a very I think it's going to

1576
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 2: lead to a huge Eddie Israel backlash they see.

1577
01:23:16,040 --> 01:23:17,120
Speaker 1: By the way you see it a little bit like

1578
01:23:17,160 --> 01:23:19,519
Speaker 1: you were, right, Like there's a lot of people on

1579
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,679
Speaker 1: the right upset at Israel about the Syria bombing, right

1580
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:25,639
Speaker 1: like that it was gratuitous and it was over the top.

1581
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,599
Speaker 1: And you're starting to see and even Trump, WHOA, what's

1582
01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:29,640
Speaker 1: going on here? Right? Like?

1583
01:23:29,720 --> 01:23:33,840
Speaker 2: There is a you know, I mean MATC is a

1584
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:37,680
Speaker 2: coalition that includes very very Provisrael people and like and

1585
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:40,600
Speaker 2: real Eddie Summits, right, it's like a tough coalition to

1586
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 2: hold together, and people all across the spectrum.

1587
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:46,280
Speaker 1: Right, at some point, I think this pressure is going

1588
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 1: to break BB in Israel, But we keep waiting for

1589
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 1: that over and over. I mean, I do find it.

1590
01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:54,200
Speaker 2: I guess there's a question of it is a non

1591
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:57,680
Speaker 2: BB Israel. Can Democrats like find a way back to

1592
01:23:57,720 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 2: a non BB Israel?

1593
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:02,880
Speaker 1: Kit? I don't know, Oh, I think so, But I mean,

1594
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:05,639
Speaker 1: you know, I always find Israel. Let me I'll throw

1595
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:07,720
Speaker 1: one more question at you. Do you think that Israel's

1596
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 1: politics is our future or did we export our politics

1597
01:24:11,080 --> 01:24:14,240
Speaker 1: to them? Meaning? You know, I find it interesting that

1598
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 1: bb IS has gotten more and more power while also

1599
01:24:19,560 --> 01:24:22,760
Speaker 1: becoming less and less popular. Donald Trump's got more and

1600
01:24:22,840 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 1: more popular powerful, but he's arguably just as unpopular as

1601
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:29,320
Speaker 1: he was when he began right. In fact, we're starting

1602
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:34,920
Speaker 1: to see. And yet the left in Israel tried all

1603
01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:37,840
Speaker 1: sorts of ways to stop BB. Right, they tried, and

1604
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 1: it's like same and you're watching the left here in

1605
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 1: this country try all sorts of ways to stop Trump

1606
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:44,800
Speaker 1: and they've all failed. They tried in the lawsuit, they

1607
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:48,439
Speaker 1: tried creating a centrist party that didn't work, right, Like,

1608
01:24:48,479 --> 01:24:51,000
Speaker 1: they've tried all these things. I look at Israel and

1609
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:55,439
Speaker 1: BB and think, hey, the left, the anti Trump forces

1610
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:58,040
Speaker 1: ought to spend more time studying the mistakes of the

1611
01:24:58,080 --> 01:24:59,599
Speaker 1: ANTIBB forces in Israel.

1612
01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:02,680
Speaker 2: What do you think that's fascinating? What do you think

1613
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:04,680
Speaker 2: those mistakes were, Like, well, what was the alternative?

1614
01:25:06,040 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 1: Well, I think the I think the miss Well, first

1615
01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 1: of all, the Israeli Labor Party just sort of collapsed

1616
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:14,080
Speaker 1: after the after the Raben assassination, right, they never arguably

1617
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:18,000
Speaker 1: never recovered from that. They had their own their own scandal.

1618
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:20,960
Speaker 1: But I think the I think the assumption there was

1619
01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:24,439
Speaker 1: this assumption that somehow, the further the right that BB went,

1620
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 1: that it was going to alienate And the fact is

1621
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:34,080
Speaker 1: it was, you know, BB being sort of always being tough,

1622
01:25:35,400 --> 01:25:38,920
Speaker 1: uh to those forces trying to sort of get rid

1623
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:41,680
Speaker 1: of Israel was always going to be better politics than

1624
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:45,360
Speaker 1: whatever problems were domestically. And I think, you know, for

1625
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:49,760
Speaker 1: whatever reason, the two state solution just never resonated as

1626
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:51,679
Speaker 1: much as I think the left thought it would.

1627
01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess the the whatever,

1628
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 2: however serious you think the problems are with the imigration

1629
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:04,879
Speaker 2: or the border, can't really talk yourself into a world

1630
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:07,080
Speaker 2: where you're about to be pushed into the sea, right,

1631
01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:09,479
Speaker 2: which a lot of Israelis fear like the politics of

1632
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 2: fear in Israel are for like obvious reasons.

1633
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:13,120
Speaker 1: It's real much more compelling.

1634
01:26:13,160 --> 01:26:14,439
Speaker 2: There's a lot more to be afraid of.

1635
01:26:14,920 --> 01:26:16,720
Speaker 1: No, And I think it's a it's been a very

1636
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:18,880
Speaker 1: effective way for baby to keep just keep.

1637
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:20,760
Speaker 2: And I wonder and I wonder if the I mean

1638
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:22,519
Speaker 2: the sort of were to me like where this analogy

1639
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:26,360
Speaker 2: breaks down as you see the numbers immrogration like flopping

1640
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:28,559
Speaker 2: all over the place right now, like people were able

1641
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:30,720
Speaker 2: to like, doesn't seem like people are so just sustaining

1642
01:26:30,760 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 2: their fear around immigration at all. I mean that I

1643
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 2: find that fascinating. I don't really know it.

1644
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:40,280
Speaker 1: Uh what what's happening here on immigration? Yeah?

1645
01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, right now? I think like Trump's doing what he

1646
01:26:43,240 --> 01:26:46,120
Speaker 2: promised and it seems not popular. Wow, popular when he

1647
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:48,880
Speaker 2: promised it, and he's seen it on the border.

1648
01:26:49,360 --> 01:26:51,960
Speaker 1: And but I think that was the mistake. The question

1649
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:55,599
Speaker 1: was what were people upset about the border or or immigration?

1650
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:58,160
Speaker 1: They were upset about the border, and I think I

1651
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:00,719
Speaker 1: think that the you know, Stephen Miller or actually wants

1652
01:27:00,760 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 1: to you know, he had a different agenda, right He

1653
01:27:03,680 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 1: wanted to put he believed immigrants were taking jobs from Americans.

1654
01:27:08,360 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 2: I think fewer taco restaurants and more hands.

1655
01:27:11,160 --> 01:27:15,760
Speaker 1: That's right. He wants a more American culture, europe eurocentric

1656
01:27:15,800 --> 01:27:19,160
Speaker 1: American culture, and and so that is I think that's

1657
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 1: what's unpopular. I think the border security was popular. I

1658
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 1: think what was what was unpiped? You know, there's a

1659
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:28,640
Speaker 1: there's I was reading something the other day about you know,

1660
01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:32,599
Speaker 1: sort of in some ways immigration, the politics of immigration

1661
01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 1: have been exactly the same, which is, Americans love the

1662
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:40,519
Speaker 1: immigrants that they know, and they and they don't. They

1663
01:27:40,760 --> 01:27:43,320
Speaker 1: don't like the immigrants they don't know. And that's always

1664
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:46,960
Speaker 1: and which is ultimately why we don't why Americans are

1665
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:49,400
Speaker 1: recoiling it. Why are you getting rid of these people

1666
01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:52,840
Speaker 1: that are are making chicken affordable? Why are you getting

1667
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 1: rid of these people that are making produce affordable? What

1668
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 1: are you doing? Hey, that person that cleans my house,

1669
01:27:58,360 --> 01:28:01,960
Speaker 1: she's really she's terrific, She's not a criminal. Why are

1670
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:04,759
Speaker 1: you attacking her? Why are you scaring her? Right? I think,

1671
01:28:05,040 --> 01:28:08,000
Speaker 1: and ultimately we're still there. It's right. Look at how

1672
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,439
Speaker 1: many times you can write the story of well, I

1673
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:13,360
Speaker 1: voted for Trump, but I didn't want that immigrant to

1674
01:28:13,400 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 1: get deported. I like it, you know, one hundred percent,

1675
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:21,920
Speaker 1: because he's a hotel person. He gets it. Every time

1676
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:25,600
Speaker 1: he's been that argument's been made to him, he gets it.

1677
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 1: And I at some point, because the polls are showing

1678
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:32,360
Speaker 1: this is not popular, The question I have is does

1679
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:35,240
Speaker 1: he turn on Stephen Miller on this or does Stephen

1680
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:38,280
Speaker 1: Miller realize is he smart enough to realize what's coming?

1681
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:40,439
Speaker 1: And he sort of and he you know.

1682
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:42,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just I mean, they just tasked all that

1683
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:46,000
Speaker 2: money for Ice, right like, but I don't think more

1684
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:48,200
Speaker 2: guys in mass chasing people around the interior is going

1685
01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:49,879
Speaker 2: to be a popular thing to do with it.

1686
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:51,800
Speaker 1: It hasn't been the numbers to play.

1687
01:28:51,800 --> 01:28:53,120
Speaker 2: It's chasing journalists around.

1688
01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:55,920
Speaker 1: I mean John Alice's subsect, tod hat a terrific lead,

1689
01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:59,679
Speaker 1: which was Trump's never had gotten more of what he's

1690
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 1: wanted in six months, right, No president has gotten this

1691
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:05,320
Speaker 1: much of what they've wanted in six months than him.

1692
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:08,360
Speaker 1: By the way, have you noticed is how unpopular he

1693
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:08,920
Speaker 1: is right now?

1694
01:29:09,120 --> 01:29:10,519
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1695
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:13,760
Speaker 1: And it's across the board, right. None of his policies

1696
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:16,480
Speaker 1: are seen as a net positive right now, not tariffs,

1697
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:18,679
Speaker 1: not immigration, And you're just sitting there going.

1698
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:21,960
Speaker 2: Weird weird country where we elect a guy who promises

1699
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:24,160
Speaker 2: all these things and then it just immediately despised him

1700
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:24,720
Speaker 2: when he does them.

1701
01:29:24,760 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 1: But isn't it proof we weren't voting for anything, We've

1702
01:29:27,280 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 1: just been voting against and this was like, now Biden

1703
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:31,200
Speaker 1: and Harris didn't know what they were doing. Get them out?

1704
01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right.

1705
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:39,479
Speaker 1: Well Semaphore for it? Who is? Let me close with this?

1706
01:29:40,280 --> 01:29:43,160
Speaker 1: Who is? I think every news organization you need to

1707
01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:45,519
Speaker 1: know who. You need to have somebody you compete with,

1708
01:29:45,840 --> 01:29:48,320
Speaker 1: even if you're not really a competitor. Who do you

1709
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 1: view as Semaphore's competitor? Is it? Is it The New

1710
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:57,240
Speaker 1: York Times? Is it Axios? Is it BBC? Who is it?

1711
01:29:58,439 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I think a lot of it the FT.

1712
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:03,720
Speaker 2: I think that's a great publication, but also like a

1713
01:30:03,760 --> 01:30:05,479
Speaker 2: lot of gosh. I think they were found in the

1714
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:07,559
Speaker 2: nineteenth century, so it was possible it was like the

1715
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:10,560
Speaker 2: sixteenth being Britain. But I think there's an opportunity to

1716
01:30:10,800 --> 01:30:14,240
Speaker 2: build a kind of modern, caffeinated version of The Financial Times.

1717
01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:16,720
Speaker 2: And the other thing that I think we really see

1718
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,519
Speaker 2: ourselves competing with is the World Economic Forum MEDABAS like

1719
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 2: that is a interesting fascinating institution that is, you know

1720
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:27,639
Speaker 2: of also very root in the twentieth century.

1721
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:31,439
Speaker 1: Are you worried at all about being too associated with

1722
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:34,920
Speaker 1: the wealthiest of of folks? Do you know what I mean,

1723
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:37,160
Speaker 1: Like when we're having this sort of weird, sort of

1724
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:39,320
Speaker 1: populous moment frankly around the world.

1725
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:44,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that would be a

1726
01:30:45,120 --> 01:30:45,760
Speaker 2: problem to have.

1727
01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:48,160
Speaker 1: That's a good problem.

1728
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:51,400
Speaker 2: I mean, like like like if the if the peasants

1729
01:30:51,400 --> 01:30:54,599
Speaker 2: with pitchforks are gathering around Semaphore's headquarters, like that would

1730
01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:58,280
Speaker 2: be that means you've succeeded a great brand recognition for us. Yeah,

1731
01:30:58,280 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 2: I think we're not quite there yet.

1732
01:31:00,240 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 1: Do you think the wealthy realized the pitchforks are coming

1733
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: for them or not?

1734
01:31:06,479 --> 01:31:09,519
Speaker 2: You know, it's a the well, like the right now,

1735
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:11,280
Speaker 2: Like I mean, somebody said this to me, like the

1736
01:31:11,320 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 2: thing you know, uh, the millionaires voted for mom Donny

1737
01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:17,960
Speaker 2: and the billionaires are the ones freaking out, Like I mean,

1738
01:31:18,120 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 2: it's a funny moment where that you also have these

1739
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:23,800
Speaker 2: kind of billionaire populists like like, well, I don't know,

1740
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 2: it's it's a very I mean, I think obviously inequality

1741
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 2: is this huge threat in politics but the way in

1742
01:31:28,479 --> 01:31:31,120
Speaker 2: which the billionaires are now themselves these sort of aggrieved

1743
01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:34,120
Speaker 2: political actors is a really strange twist. Like I don't

1744
01:31:34,120 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 2: think that, Like I think Elon Musk and Bill Ackman

1745
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:39,479
Speaker 2: earnestly consider themselves the voices of the people.

1746
01:31:40,120 --> 01:31:43,520
Speaker 1: Bill Ackman really thinks he's a victim.

1747
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:45,759
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's incredible to watch, But it's also

1748
01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:48,360
Speaker 2: these guys, they're sort of the fact that they now

1749
01:31:48,360 --> 01:31:53,040
Speaker 2: are sort of publicly intervening on behalf of these political candidates.

1750
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:55,000
Speaker 2: I mean it's just poison politically.

1751
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:55,880
Speaker 1: No, it really is.

1752
01:31:55,960 --> 01:31:58,360
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, right, if we saw those like no

1753
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:00,880
Speaker 2: one was the richest man in the world to bry

1754
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:03,520
Speaker 2: to tell them how to vote. If people hate these people.

1755
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 1: Ask that poor conservative judge that Randon Wisconsin, please me

1756
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:10,880
Speaker 1: your endorsement. Elsk, Yeah, literally made things worse.

1757
01:32:11,160 --> 01:32:13,160
Speaker 2: No, And I think right now this sort of the

1758
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 2: like whatever small hope, the very troubled but maybe possible

1759
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:20,840
Speaker 2: Andrew Cuomo and Eric Adams campaigns had has basically been

1760
01:32:20,840 --> 01:32:25,679
Speaker 2: snuffed out by the panic of elite the like the

1761
01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:30,599
Speaker 2: whole narrative being like the elite billionaire, not even business owners,

1762
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:33,720
Speaker 2: not people who operate, not New York employers. We're not

1763
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:35,920
Speaker 2: talking about like I mean, I'm sure the CEO of

1764
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:38,320
Speaker 2: Pfizer is freaking out too, But we're talking about money.

1765
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:41,200
Speaker 2: You know, hedge fund managers and short sellers who spend

1766
01:32:41,439 --> 01:32:43,280
Speaker 2: who often spend like one hundred and seventy nine days

1767
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:45,840
Speaker 2: in the cities that are to pay local taxes are

1768
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:49,160
Speaker 2: having these huge public freakouts. These are not beloved specific leaders.

1769
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:53,120
Speaker 1: You know, Jessica Tish were on the ballot, would she

1770
01:32:53,240 --> 01:32:54,679
Speaker 1: be the would she be the next mayor?

1771
01:32:56,439 --> 01:32:58,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she probably would have been had I

1772
01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:00,320
Speaker 2: think had she I think it's late now, but I

1773
01:33:00,360 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 2: think had she gotten in initially, she'd be a very

1774
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:02,880
Speaker 2: strong candidate.

1775
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:06,519
Speaker 1: I mean, she's Yeah, you're surprised she didn't get pushed

1776
01:33:06,520 --> 01:33:09,280
Speaker 1: into this by like a Bloomberg who could have probably

1777
01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:09,960
Speaker 1: talked her into it.

1778
01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:12,120
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know, She's not somebody else who

1779
01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:14,559
Speaker 2: can be talked to to anything, because she she need

1780
01:33:14,600 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 2: to be. Yeah, she has her own money too, she said.

1781
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:19,799
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny because there is a great tradition

1782
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:22,639
Speaker 2: in New York of the city being and this isn't

1783
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:24,960
Speaker 2: a very small de democratic tradition. But if you think

1784
01:33:25,000 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 2: about there was a period where New York was kind

1785
01:33:27,439 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 2: of run by the science of these great New York

1786
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:32,799
Speaker 2: mostly kind of our crowd Jewish families, the Morgan Thaws,

1787
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:37,120
Speaker 2: Robert Moses, like, who felt to some degree like they

1788
01:33:37,160 --> 01:33:40,040
Speaker 2: owned the place because they did and operated with a

1789
01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:43,920
Speaker 2: level of kind of no bless Obliege actually, and she's

1790
01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:46,439
Speaker 2: certainly the inheritor. And I think that's actually a great tradition,

1791
01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 2: Like it's some problems with it, but like there's something

1792
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:52,519
Speaker 2: nice about that tradition of people who really feel a

1793
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:55,080
Speaker 2: commitment to the civic life of the city and feel

1794
01:33:55,120 --> 01:33:57,920
Speaker 2: grateful and feel a level of gratitude about what they

1795
01:33:57,960 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 2: were given and are incredible, intense, hard working public servants.

1796
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:06,000
Speaker 2: And she was showing up at four am for Sanateasian

1797
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 2: roll calls when she was a great sanitation commissioner, Like

1798
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:14,360
Speaker 2: she sort of embodies that. I think, like he's a tough, driven,

1799
01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:20,600
Speaker 2: driving manager that's not always the personality type of a politician.

1800
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:22,639
Speaker 2: And I think there's a question of does she want

1801
01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:26,000
Speaker 2: the political job, but she I think, you know, people

1802
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:29,599
Speaker 2: think she's doing a pretty good job running government agencies

1803
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:31,760
Speaker 2: she runs, so I assume she wants to be mare

1804
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:32,599
Speaker 2: at some point she can.

1805
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:34,320
Speaker 1: Be I was just going to say, two of the

1806
01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 1: most difficult ones can be police commissioner, sanitation, and the

1807
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:40,559
Speaker 1: only other tough one I would argue before Mayor would

1808
01:34:40,560 --> 01:34:45,799
Speaker 1: be the education ahead because that has had its moments

1809
01:34:46,240 --> 01:34:47,920
Speaker 1: as well. So the fact that she's.

1810
01:34:48,240 --> 01:34:51,519
Speaker 2: Thing it with Dora and Mamdane, like yeah, and that's

1811
01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:52,880
Speaker 2: the things where I'm done. He's going to like or

1812
01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 2: whoever is married. It's one hundred and twenty billion dollar budget,

1813
01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:57,559
Speaker 2: and you just like the schools either to get better,

1814
01:34:57,560 --> 01:35:00,800
Speaker 2: they're going to get worse, and the cities in the

1815
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:03,160
Speaker 2: subways can get more or less dangerous. Like it's an immediate,

1816
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 2: constant crisis of a job. It's not an ideological sort

1817
01:35:06,880 --> 01:35:09,080
Speaker 2: of like the gard person get picked up or it's

1818
01:35:09,080 --> 01:35:12,519
Speaker 2: not and one one snowstorm goes wrong like that's the end.

1819
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:15,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, Ben, this was I so glad. I

1820
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:18,840
Speaker 1: feel like you're a you're a real New York City

1821
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:21,519
Speaker 1: sort of savant. I don't know what else to call it.

1822
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:22,360
Speaker 1: Like take that.

1823
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:25,599
Speaker 2: It's like that's genuinely the nicest thing you could possibly

1824
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:27,640
Speaker 2: have said about me, So I really appreciate it.

1825
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:29,559
Speaker 1: That's like, oh, you love it's been fishing for it

1826
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:31,800
Speaker 1: because you do you love the city, right, I mean

1827
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:33,640
Speaker 1: you do. You feel like you're of the city and

1828
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:34,760
Speaker 1: you're never gonna leave it, are you?

1829
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:37,519
Speaker 2: No? I think I'm not. I'm stuck here.

1830
01:35:38,360 --> 01:35:40,720
Speaker 1: Now I get it. I get it. It's not you know.

1831
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:42,360
Speaker 1: I grew up in the six Borough of New York.

1832
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:43,160
Speaker 1: It's called Miami.

1833
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:46,439
Speaker 2: It's always so fun to talk to you, Jeh. Thank

1834
01:35:46,479 --> 01:35:47,719
Speaker 2: you for thanks for my friend.

1835
01:35:48,000 --> 01:35:50,920
Speaker 1: Well, I love Sanmophart. By the way, I subscribe. My

1836
01:35:51,080 --> 01:35:55,240
Speaker 1: favorite two newsletters to read actually this was are the

1837
01:35:55,280 --> 01:35:58,840
Speaker 1: Africa Newsletter and the Gulf States Newsletter, because.

1838
01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:00,879
Speaker 2: Lad, I think we're doing. I think those are very hard.

1839
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:05,520
Speaker 1: To match because they're yeah, exactly, I get that information

1840
01:36:05,760 --> 01:36:10,040
Speaker 1: nowhere else, nowhere else, a little like you're right about

1841
01:36:10,040 --> 01:36:12,400
Speaker 1: the ft every once in a while ft, you know,

1842
01:36:12,439 --> 01:36:14,600
Speaker 1: but not like what you guys are doing. And just

1843
01:36:15,040 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 1: I always feel uninformed about Africa. This newsletter has made

1844
01:36:19,000 --> 01:36:22,880
Speaker 1: me feel much more informed about a continent that we're

1845
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:28,320
Speaker 1: the most news organizations ignore. So kudos and like I said,

1846
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:30,759
Speaker 1: keep it up and keep it free for us independent people.

1847
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:32,320
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Jef.

1848
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:46,640
Speaker 1: Hope you enjoyed that conversation. With Ben Smith. I always

1849
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:50,559
Speaker 1: I always learn something from him, and I enjoy debating

1850
01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:54,720
Speaker 1: him about all sorts of intricate ways to deal with

1851
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,800
Speaker 1: the press and media, et cetera. But let's do a

1852
01:36:57,840 --> 01:37:03,519
Speaker 1: little last Chuck. Ask Chuck. We got a lot of them.

1853
01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:06,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to get through four or five

1854
01:37:06,080 --> 01:37:08,560
Speaker 1: questions instead of just doing two or three. But a

1855
01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:10,280
Speaker 1: lot of it depends on how much I ramble on.

1856
01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:10,599
Speaker 2: Right.

1857
01:37:11,479 --> 01:37:16,000
Speaker 1: This one comes from Matt j South Windsor, Connecticut, and

1858
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 1: he says, Hey, I found the Chuck podcast after hearing

1859
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:20,679
Speaker 1: your convo with Chris Salissa really enjoyed it. All right,

1860
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:23,120
Speaker 1: look at that selizza. You got me another. You got

1861
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:26,439
Speaker 1: me a podcast listener. I appreciate it. He goes, I'm

1862
01:37:26,439 --> 01:37:28,600
Speaker 1: a lapsed Red Sox fan, but you're talking about the

1863
01:37:28,680 --> 01:37:30,920
Speaker 1: Nationals got me thinking about baseball again. With two MLB

1864
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:34,519
Speaker 1: teams still playing in minor league parks? Is this a

1865
01:37:34,600 --> 01:37:37,400
Speaker 1: Rob Manfred problem? Has he lost the will or ability

1866
01:37:37,439 --> 01:37:40,360
Speaker 1: to hold owners to basic league standards? If teams like

1867
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:42,719
Speaker 1: Tampa and Oakland can operate like this, is the sport

1868
01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:45,920
Speaker 1: really sustainable long term best? Matt Jay, I plead you

1869
01:37:45,920 --> 01:37:48,400
Speaker 1: asked this question. I go hot and cold on Manfred.

1870
01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:52,320
Speaker 1: I do think you've got to give Manfred credit for

1871
01:37:52,439 --> 01:37:56,320
Speaker 1: the rules changes, right, So you know, we sit here,

1872
01:37:57,560 --> 01:38:00,719
Speaker 1: I think we if you're a baseball fan, your program

1873
01:38:00,760 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 1: to hate the commissioner. Right, we all hated Bud Ceiling.

1874
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:05,559
Speaker 1: And then like the longer you go, you're like, well,

1875
01:38:05,760 --> 01:38:08,960
Speaker 1: well he really messed up ninety four. But you know, jeez,

1876
01:38:08,960 --> 01:38:10,719
Speaker 1: the wild card was turned out to be a pretty

1877
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:12,559
Speaker 1: good idea, and this turned out to be a pretty

1878
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:15,439
Speaker 1: good idea. And you know, he got baseball back to

1879
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:18,160
Speaker 1: DC and he got baseball into Miami. You know, these

1880
01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:19,840
Speaker 1: are two things I didn't think was going to happen.

1881
01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:24,240
Speaker 1: And with Manfred, I there's a part of me that says, yeah,

1882
01:38:24,280 --> 01:38:27,320
Speaker 1: I think the you know, I put it this way. Look,

1883
01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:30,880
Speaker 1: Manfred was also chief legal counsel even before he became commissioner.

1884
01:38:32,400 --> 01:38:34,640
Speaker 1: When I look at the state at baseball, where I

1885
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:38,160
Speaker 1: get angry as a baseball fan is that is the

1886
01:38:38,240 --> 01:38:44,120
Speaker 1: fact that the owners canceled the World Series and still

1887
01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:47,799
Speaker 1: didn't get a salary cap. I mean, if you're going

1888
01:38:47,840 --> 01:38:51,479
Speaker 1: to basically do the worst thing you could do to

1889
01:38:51,520 --> 01:39:00,720
Speaker 1: your sport, you better get a financial struck. Sure, that

1890
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:05,599
Speaker 1: is sustainable for a generation and they didn't do it. Look,

1891
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:10,080
Speaker 1: Baseball it is, you know, the Baseball Union is is

1892
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:13,000
Speaker 1: easily the most powerful players union. And by the way,

1893
01:39:13,040 --> 01:39:14,880
Speaker 1: as we're finding out, if you're if you're following my

1894
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:18,360
Speaker 1: friend Pablo torre Uh and Pablo Tory finds out, the

1895
01:39:18,479 --> 01:39:22,280
Speaker 1: NFL p A is probably the worst of the players unions.

1896
01:39:22,640 --> 01:39:24,759
Speaker 1: And part of that has to do with baseball players

1897
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:28,799
Speaker 1: are more likely to have longer careers than football players,

1898
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:31,800
Speaker 1: and I think the football players the players don't get

1899
01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:35,960
Speaker 1: as active in the union until until they have more

1900
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:38,120
Speaker 1: than a cup of coffee in the NFL, and so

1901
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:40,559
Speaker 1: that's it's a lot of players that don't end up,

1902
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:43,080
Speaker 1: you know. So I think it's it's unfortunately the the

1903
01:39:43,400 --> 01:39:45,640
Speaker 1: owners have had a way to sort of take advantage

1904
01:39:46,479 --> 01:39:49,960
Speaker 1: of that a little bit, and they it is the

1905
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:54,639
Speaker 1: nfl PA, you know. I think when Damar Smith was there,

1906
01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:57,719
Speaker 1: he tried to be a bit tougher with the owners.

1907
01:39:58,320 --> 01:40:00,720
Speaker 1: You know, the owners always sort of had control of

1908
01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:05,080
Speaker 1: the NFLPA when Gene Upshaw, and he was always considered

1909
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:08,240
Speaker 1: sort of you know, secretly always in the in the

1910
01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 1: always a bit too easy to deal with with the owners,

1911
01:40:12,200 --> 01:40:14,680
Speaker 1: right not as not as not as pro player as

1912
01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:17,360
Speaker 1: he could be on that front. And that's sort of

1913
01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:20,480
Speaker 1: been the reputation of the NFL P a versus the MLBPA.

1914
01:40:21,720 --> 01:40:23,760
Speaker 1: But when I look at the fact that baseball is

1915
01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:27,280
Speaker 1: about to go through another tough situation, and they do

1916
01:40:27,360 --> 01:40:30,080
Speaker 1: have a mess on their hands. Okay, the TV deals,

1917
01:40:30,600 --> 01:40:32,280
Speaker 1: you know, and this, and the question is is this

1918
01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:36,760
Speaker 1: on Manfred right? The two minor league stadiums. You know,

1919
01:40:36,840 --> 01:40:39,000
Speaker 1: I do think the owners need to get control, you know,

1920
01:40:39,040 --> 01:40:44,000
Speaker 1: but this is because they don't share revenue equally. They

1921
01:40:44,040 --> 01:40:47,160
Speaker 1: don't seem to be as concerned when they have crappy owners.

1922
01:40:47,479 --> 01:40:51,960
Speaker 1: Right in the NFL, they got tired of crappy owner

1923
01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:56,320
Speaker 1: Dan Schneider, And eventually, essentially it was driven by the

1924
01:40:56,400 --> 01:40:59,559
Speaker 1: late Jim Mersey, right. He he he gave voice to

1925
01:40:59,640 --> 01:41:03,080
Speaker 1: what was a growing majority opinion of those owners. But

1926
01:41:03,360 --> 01:41:06,960
Speaker 1: because the NFL owners are essentially equal shareholders, when one

1927
01:41:07,120 --> 01:41:10,439
Speaker 1: is not when one is dropping the ball, right, And

1928
01:41:10,479 --> 01:41:13,120
Speaker 1: you know what really irritated the owners about Dan Schneiders

1929
01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:17,799
Speaker 1: he was they found out he was withholding ticket revenue,

1930
01:41:18,720 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 1: the visitor team ticket revenue, that he was keeping more

1931
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:26,400
Speaker 1: of it than he should it's money out of the

1932
01:41:26,439 --> 01:41:31,000
Speaker 1: owner's pockets. So with baseball, because of the disparity, right,

1933
01:41:31,520 --> 01:41:34,000
Speaker 1: the Yankees and the Dodgers don't care if the Rays

1934
01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:37,679
Speaker 1: and the A's are mismanaged, right, or have bad ownership groups,

1935
01:41:37,760 --> 01:41:40,439
Speaker 1: or have bad relationships with their But if they were

1936
01:41:40,479 --> 01:41:43,960
Speaker 1: all equal partners and there was a little bit more,

1937
01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:47,479
Speaker 1: you know, and then then there would be I think,

1938
01:41:47,560 --> 01:41:50,840
Speaker 1: a better policing by the owners and therefore the commissioner.

1939
01:41:51,320 --> 01:41:55,920
Speaker 1: When you have weak owners and the fact is the

1940
01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:59,280
Speaker 1: a the ownership of the A's is a mess. Should

1941
01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:01,439
Speaker 1: have been forced to say sooner, should have should have

1942
01:42:01,479 --> 01:42:06,439
Speaker 1: inserted itself into that situation and did it with Tampa Bay.

1943
01:42:06,600 --> 01:42:12,040
Speaker 1: And look, I see the mismanaged the ownership structure of

1944
01:42:12,120 --> 01:42:16,080
Speaker 1: Florida multiple times, right, First it was the garbage man.

1945
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:19,479
Speaker 1: Then it was the diamond dealer from Marlins fans, they'll

1946
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:22,919
Speaker 1: know who I'm referring to say it that, but you know, literally,

1947
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:27,439
Speaker 1: they gave a free franchise. They gave an owner handed

1948
01:42:27,439 --> 01:42:29,559
Speaker 1: the he was the owner of the exposed They didn't

1949
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:32,240
Speaker 1: want him owning the team, you know, moving the team

1950
01:42:32,280 --> 01:42:35,200
Speaker 1: to DC and staying the owner. But they couldn't take

1951
01:42:35,200 --> 01:42:37,960
Speaker 1: a team so they traded teams right, and then the

1952
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:40,760
Speaker 1: league took over the Expos franchise and sold it to

1953
01:42:40,760 --> 01:42:44,840
Speaker 1: the Learners, and then they gave the Diamond broker the

1954
01:42:44,840 --> 01:42:50,360
Speaker 1: Marlins franchise. So I do think that that if you

1955
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 1: believe Manfred has this power, they're there. They've done a

1956
01:42:56,120 --> 01:43:00,280
Speaker 1: bad job of policing bad owners and now they have

1957
01:43:00,320 --> 01:43:02,960
Speaker 1: new ownership. They did finally force to sail in Tampa,

1958
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:07,400
Speaker 1: so you know, so they are working to try to

1959
01:43:07,400 --> 01:43:11,040
Speaker 1: fix that situation. But they didn't in Oakland. And I

1960
01:43:11,120 --> 01:43:14,479
Speaker 1: have to tell you I feel this way about on

1961
01:43:14,600 --> 01:43:16,519
Speaker 1: the Oakland front as I do about what happened to

1962
01:43:16,520 --> 01:43:22,519
Speaker 1: the Chargers. I think the leagues should be better partners

1963
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:26,360
Speaker 1: when it comes to stadium financing. It was pretty clear

1964
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:30,840
Speaker 1: that Oakland had a fan base for baseball, but the

1965
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:35,120
Speaker 1: city of Oakland and the County of Alameda wasn't interested

1966
01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:38,559
Speaker 1: in chipping in money. Just like in San Diego, the

1967
01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:40,880
Speaker 1: owner of the Chargers couldn't get the community to vote

1968
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:45,479
Speaker 1: for essentially giving taxpayer subsidies to the NFL owner. So

1969
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:49,280
Speaker 1: the NFL decides to take a franchise away from San

1970
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:52,599
Speaker 1: Diego rather than they could have financed the stadium. They

1971
01:43:52,640 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 1: could have turned it into an incredible stadium that was

1972
01:43:55,240 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 1: a showcase and a host of a Super Bowl. Over time,

1973
01:44:00,160 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 1: the owner essentially pay back right. They could have essentially

1974
01:44:03,479 --> 01:44:05,160
Speaker 1: been the banker for the owner, if you will, or

1975
01:44:05,200 --> 01:44:10,160
Speaker 1: the partner with the owner, and they'd have a franchise

1976
01:44:10,200 --> 01:44:15,120
Speaker 1: that wasn't a zombie franchise. The Chargers have zero, Uh,

1977
01:44:15,680 --> 01:44:18,639
Speaker 1: they have no fan base in LA. Both the Raiders

1978
01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:23,000
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas and the Rams have more fans in LA. Frankly,

1979
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:26,120
Speaker 1: you know than than than this. You know, the Steelers

1980
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:28,960
Speaker 1: probably have more fans in LA than the Chargers. The

1981
01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:31,200
Speaker 1: Packers probably have more fans in LA than the Charge

1982
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:33,479
Speaker 1: than the Chargers, and the Cowboys probably have more fans

1983
01:44:33,479 --> 01:44:36,240
Speaker 1: in LA than the Chargers. But San Diego is a

1984
01:44:36,240 --> 01:44:38,879
Speaker 1: great football town, and I think the same with Oakland

1985
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:42,360
Speaker 1: and major League Baseball. Had the revenue, they could have

1986
01:44:42,360 --> 01:44:46,559
Speaker 1: stepped up. And you know, let's see how you know,

1987
01:44:46,640 --> 01:44:50,599
Speaker 1: the the the management of the regional media and all

1988
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:52,679
Speaker 1: of that, and the fact that that's not as shared

1989
01:44:52,720 --> 01:44:55,360
Speaker 1: as it is in the NFL. It has created sort

1990
01:44:55,400 --> 01:44:59,320
Speaker 1: of haves and have nots in baseball. I'm a believer

1991
01:44:59,479 --> 01:45:03,640
Speaker 1: that baseball can support thirty two franchises, but not with

1992
01:45:03,760 --> 01:45:06,840
Speaker 1: this current financial structure, not where the Dodgers can do

1993
01:45:06,880 --> 01:45:08,920
Speaker 1: one thing, but the Twins are limited in what they

1994
01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:12,599
Speaker 1: can do. And so if you've got a situation like that,

1995
01:45:12,680 --> 01:45:15,320
Speaker 1: you have to blame the ownership, and you had to,

1996
01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, and who works for the owners? Manford works

1997
01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:24,280
Speaker 1: for the owners. But you know, I, like I said,

1998
01:45:24,439 --> 01:45:26,880
Speaker 1: I do, I am glad Manford made the rules changes

1999
01:45:26,920 --> 01:45:30,240
Speaker 1: because it's really helped baseball. But I do think you

2000
01:45:30,320 --> 01:45:32,880
Speaker 1: really do have to hold both of both Manfred and

2001
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:38,320
Speaker 1: Sealing responsible for not dealing with a situation that we

2002
01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:41,559
Speaker 1: all saw coming that the baseball finances and the lack

2003
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:44,200
Speaker 1: of a salary cap was going to create more and

2004
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:50,240
Speaker 1: more problems, and it has, and so but I don't

2005
01:45:50,320 --> 01:45:52,759
Speaker 1: know if a different commissioner would have made things any differently,

2006
01:45:52,760 --> 01:45:55,559
Speaker 1: because ultimately this is an owner issue, and until the

2007
01:45:55,600 --> 01:46:00,120
Speaker 1: owners of the Yankees and Dodgers care about whether the

2008
01:46:00,120 --> 01:46:02,960
Speaker 1: Oakland A's or whatever we're going to call him right now,

2009
01:46:02,960 --> 01:46:06,120
Speaker 1: the Sacramento A's and the Tampa Bay Rays are well

2010
01:46:06,160 --> 01:46:09,160
Speaker 1: won France. Until they're incentivized to care how well run

2011
01:46:09,200 --> 01:46:12,200
Speaker 1: other franchises are, I don't know if baseball is going

2012
01:46:12,240 --> 01:46:17,720
Speaker 1: to be able to fix itself without having another catastrophic

2013
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:20,400
Speaker 1: work stoppage, which I do think is coming soon. I

2014
01:46:20,479 --> 01:46:21,800
Speaker 1: bet you you didn't think I was going to have

2015
01:46:21,920 --> 01:46:25,480
Speaker 1: that strong and long of an opinion on that one.

2016
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:27,840
Speaker 1: But there you go. You teed me up on that one,

2017
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:33,400
Speaker 1: all right. Next question, this comes from Dylan R. From Lebanon, Pennsylvania,

2018
01:46:33,400 --> 01:46:34,960
Speaker 1: and he asked this, do you think we will ever

2019
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:37,479
Speaker 1: see a US sitting president ever get primaried and lose?

2020
01:46:37,600 --> 01:46:39,599
Speaker 1: I know we were close with Ford and seventy six

2021
01:46:40,240 --> 01:46:43,960
Speaker 1: Carter in eighty. Well never say never. You know. One

2022
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:47,479
Speaker 1: of the one thing we'd never seen until we finally

2023
01:46:47,479 --> 01:46:50,479
Speaker 1: saw it was a sitting governor losing a primary. That

2024
01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:55,559
Speaker 1: happened to Frank Murkowski, Lisa Murkowski's father, and it actually

2025
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:59,360
Speaker 1: happened due to Frank Murkowski's decision to appoint his daughter

2026
01:46:59,439 --> 01:47:02,840
Speaker 1: to the Senate. I know, for many Lisa Murkowski is

2027
01:47:02,880 --> 01:47:06,800
Speaker 1: considered a maverick and in some ways a hero to

2028
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:12,920
Speaker 1: many independent minded voters. But I guess you could call

2029
01:47:12,920 --> 01:47:15,600
Speaker 1: her a NEPO baby. But that became an issue, and

2030
01:47:15,640 --> 01:47:18,799
Speaker 1: a woman named Sarah Palin beat Frank Murkowski in a primary,

2031
01:47:18,800 --> 01:47:23,720
Speaker 1: and it looked defeating any executive in a primary extraordinarily hard.

2032
01:47:24,880 --> 01:47:27,280
Speaker 1: You know, you could argue that LBJ was going to

2033
01:47:27,280 --> 01:47:29,280
Speaker 1: get defeated in the primaries, which is why he ended

2034
01:47:29,320 --> 01:47:32,479
Speaker 1: up not running, right even though he won. People forget

2035
01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:35,559
Speaker 1: that LBJ win or lose the sixty eight New Hampshire primary.

2036
01:47:35,880 --> 01:47:40,160
Speaker 1: Most people if you think he actually lost, But he

2037
01:47:40,200 --> 01:47:42,080
Speaker 1: actually he won the primary. He just didn't win it

2038
01:47:42,080 --> 01:47:44,599
Speaker 1: by a big enough margin. It was just amazing that

2039
01:47:44,640 --> 01:47:49,720
Speaker 1: the sitting president barely could beat clean for Jean McCarthy

2040
01:47:50,200 --> 01:47:55,880
Speaker 1: by less than ten points. So I think if a

2041
01:47:55,920 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 1: sitting president is vulnerable to losing in a primary, they're

2042
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:02,559
Speaker 1: more likely to step down right as we saw with LBJ,

2043
01:48:04,520 --> 01:48:08,680
Speaker 1: than not. But I don't know. I think our politics

2044
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:12,040
Speaker 1: are so disruptive right now, and I you know, one

2045
01:48:12,080 --> 01:48:14,200
Speaker 1: of the things that I'm looking for I think I

2046
01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:15,960
Speaker 1: think this is going to be one of those years

2047
01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:19,840
Speaker 1: where we see a surprising number of incumbents lose primaries.

2048
01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:25,120
Speaker 1: So I know it doesn't really answer your question, but

2049
01:48:25,120 --> 01:48:27,120
Speaker 1: I think we're in a period. If we're ever going

2050
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:31,800
Speaker 1: to see a sitting president somehow losing a primary, it's

2051
01:48:31,800 --> 01:48:38,600
Speaker 1: going to be in this era if you will. But boy,

2052
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:42,400
Speaker 1: you know, it is hard to make happen because presidents,

2053
01:48:42,800 --> 01:48:47,080
Speaker 1: once they become president, they become the establishment and they

2054
01:48:47,120 --> 01:48:51,360
Speaker 1: sort of control the infrastructure and can make it extraordinarily

2055
01:48:51,400 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 1: difficult to to you know, get the delegates you need

2056
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:56,240
Speaker 1: and things like that. But I think if you're so

2057
01:48:56,360 --> 01:48:59,680
Speaker 1: vulnerable you could lose a primary with voters, you're going

2058
01:48:59,720 --> 01:49:03,880
Speaker 1: to see. Uh, these guys quit before they would actually

2059
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:07,800
Speaker 1: go through with it. All right. This one comes from

2060
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:10,160
Speaker 1: Greg parts On known. Hey, Chuck, where does all the

2061
01:49:10,160 --> 01:49:12,280
Speaker 1: tariff money go? There must be billions coming in, but

2062
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:14,360
Speaker 1: who collects in and who controls it? It seems like

2063
01:49:14,360 --> 01:49:17,400
Speaker 1: the dollar stream that's just begging for Shenanigans love the cast. Greig. No,

2064
01:49:17,520 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 1: it's like tax revenue. It comes into the treasury and

2065
01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:25,080
Speaker 1: so and in fact, they they want to use it

2066
01:49:25,120 --> 01:49:27,839
Speaker 1: to sort of and they've been talking, you know, Trump's

2067
01:49:27,880 --> 01:49:30,080
Speaker 1: been talking up how much revenue is coming in. It's

2068
01:49:30,280 --> 01:49:33,360
Speaker 1: it's like tax revenue. It comes into the treasury. It's

2069
01:49:33,400 --> 01:49:38,320
Speaker 1: it's a tax. It's a tax on on other you know,

2070
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:41,320
Speaker 1: other entities. It's no different, goes into the treasury just

2071
01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:46,920
Speaker 1: like your income tax does. The question is where did

2072
01:49:46,920 --> 01:49:49,760
Speaker 1: that money actually come from did it come from the

2073
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:53,840
Speaker 1: exporter or did they or did they mark it up?

2074
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:58,240
Speaker 1: And you and I pay for it with an increased price, right,

2075
01:49:58,320 --> 01:50:00,840
Speaker 1: So it is, but the money all goes to the

2076
01:50:00,840 --> 01:50:03,320
Speaker 1: same place. And this has been one of Trump's arguments.

2077
01:50:03,320 --> 01:50:06,880
Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways, I think what Trump wants

2078
01:50:06,880 --> 01:50:09,880
Speaker 1: to go through is essentially ava tax. They don't call

2079
01:50:09,920 --> 01:50:13,200
Speaker 1: it that, but essentially getting rid of the income tax

2080
01:50:13,320 --> 01:50:17,120
Speaker 1: and essentially going to a form of a consumption tax.

2081
01:50:17,560 --> 01:50:20,559
Speaker 1: Now they're not, you know, which is consumption tax attacks

2082
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:22,759
Speaker 1: on everything. But you know what, when you raise tariffs

2083
01:50:23,240 --> 01:50:25,200
Speaker 1: ten percent across the board, what have you just done?

2084
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:29,760
Speaker 1: You've just taxed pretty much everything. But no, it just

2085
01:50:29,800 --> 01:50:34,760
Speaker 1: goes straight into the treasury. Next question comes from Dan A. Carlsbad, California. Hey, Chuck,

2086
01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:37,439
Speaker 1: I've been listening since the original NBC version and I'm

2087
01:50:37,479 --> 01:50:39,920
Speaker 1: really enjoying the new format. Well, thank you. The long

2088
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:42,559
Speaker 1: form interviews and sharp inside on current events are great.

2089
01:50:43,000 --> 01:50:45,840
Speaker 1: Keep up the great work. Thank you. I'm blushing. I

2090
01:50:45,840 --> 01:50:47,920
Speaker 1: had a question about candidate recruitment. Given how hard it

2091
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:50,080
Speaker 1: is to win in states that heavily favor the opposite party,

2092
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:52,800
Speaker 1: why don't parties try to draft non politician celebrities with

2093
01:50:52,880 --> 01:50:55,479
Speaker 1: name recognition and brought appeal to shake up races. Even

2094
01:50:55,520 --> 01:50:57,240
Speaker 1: if they don't win, it could force the other party

2095
01:50:57,240 --> 01:51:00,360
Speaker 1: to spend resources, Like why haven't Tennessee Democrats approach someone

2096
01:51:00,400 --> 01:51:03,800
Speaker 1: like Dolly Parton, Eddie George or Taylor Swift or do

2097
01:51:03,880 --> 01:51:06,760
Speaker 1: these conversations happen and it really goes far due to

2098
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:12,439
Speaker 1: a lack of interest from the potential candidate. It's more

2099
01:51:12,479 --> 01:51:15,040
Speaker 1: of the latter, right, is that is usually lack of

2100
01:51:15,040 --> 01:51:18,400
Speaker 1: interest in said celebrity, especially these days. What celebrity wants

2101
01:51:18,439 --> 01:51:20,960
Speaker 1: to do that to themselves. But there is a specific

2102
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:25,720
Speaker 1: type of candidate that parties do try to recruit in

2103
01:51:25,800 --> 01:51:28,160
Speaker 1: these one party states where they think if they could

2104
01:51:28,160 --> 01:51:31,600
Speaker 1: find the right candidate, and it's not quite a celebrity,

2105
01:51:31,600 --> 01:51:36,719
Speaker 1: but it's sort of. It's like public service celebrity, meaning

2106
01:51:37,120 --> 01:51:47,479
Speaker 1: a military hero, an astronaut. That's that's usually, or you

2107
01:51:47,479 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 1: know somebody who's famous with their business if you will,

2108
01:51:55,600 --> 01:52:00,720
Speaker 1: So you do get attempts like that. Dave Thomas, some

2109
01:52:00,720 --> 01:52:02,920
Speaker 1: people wanted him to run for governor of Ohio. He

2110
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:06,920
Speaker 1: got into it. My old mentor Doug Bailey tells a

2111
01:52:06,920 --> 01:52:10,479
Speaker 1: great story about it. Dave Thomas, you know, was basically

2112
01:52:10,560 --> 01:52:13,000
Speaker 1: like he founded Wendy's and he was feeling pretty good

2113
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:14,800
Speaker 1: and he was in his ads, and you know, there

2114
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:16,760
Speaker 1: was this idea that he could and at the time,

2115
01:52:16,800 --> 01:52:23,200
Speaker 1: Democrats were dominating governor's races in Ohio, and you know,

2116
01:52:23,280 --> 01:52:25,920
Speaker 1: part of the problem is desire and Doug. Doug always

2117
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:28,559
Speaker 1: had a very specific question to anybody he worked for,

2118
01:52:28,800 --> 01:52:30,639
Speaker 1: and if they couldn't answer the question, he didn't want

2119
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:32,000
Speaker 1: to work for him, no matter how much money they

2120
01:52:32,040 --> 01:52:34,439
Speaker 1: had to spend. And Doug's question was, why do you

2121
01:52:34,479 --> 01:52:36,640
Speaker 1: want to be whatever office you're running for? So in

2122
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:38,439
Speaker 1: this case, well why do you want to be governor?

2123
01:52:38,479 --> 01:52:42,479
Speaker 1: What do you want to do? And the way he

2124
01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:45,120
Speaker 1: tells the story is that Dave Thomas sat there and

2125
01:52:45,160 --> 01:52:49,080
Speaker 1: said and he had all these big time consultants. He

2126
01:52:49,120 --> 01:52:51,320
Speaker 1: brought in all the best, you know, because everybody knew

2127
01:52:51,560 --> 01:52:57,280
Speaker 1: rich guy, Dave Thomas, founder of Wendy And he said,

2128
01:52:57,280 --> 01:53:00,200
Speaker 1: all right, I have to think about that. And the

2129
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:01,880
Speaker 1: next day he calls him up and says, I'm not running.

2130
01:53:02,000 --> 01:53:03,479
Speaker 1: He goes, because I don't know why I wanted to run.

2131
01:53:03,520 --> 01:53:06,400
Speaker 1: He basically just wanted to run to run and I

2132
01:53:06,400 --> 01:53:09,320
Speaker 1: think that happens sometimes with you know, you and I

2133
01:53:09,400 --> 01:53:12,200
Speaker 1: might think, boy, they would make a great candidate, but

2134
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:14,679
Speaker 1: if they don't have any interest in it, they'll actually

2135
01:53:14,760 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 1: make a terrible candidate. Right, they're a non paper candidate.

2136
01:53:18,200 --> 01:53:20,719
Speaker 1: You know, they might pull well, or they're likable or people,

2137
01:53:20,960 --> 01:53:25,040
Speaker 1: et cetera. But look when they happens, it happens. You know,

2138
01:53:25,160 --> 01:53:30,040
Speaker 1: Arnold Schwarzenegger. I don't think Arnold Swarzenegger ever would run

2139
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:33,240
Speaker 1: for governor if it had been a conventional campaign for governor.

2140
01:53:33,920 --> 01:53:36,240
Speaker 1: But he was able to get the celebrity. You know,

2141
01:53:36,400 --> 01:53:38,639
Speaker 1: you can talk a celebrity into doing it if there's

2142
01:53:38,680 --> 01:53:43,519
Speaker 1: like an easy way to do it. And the recall suddenly,

2143
01:53:43,600 --> 01:53:46,719
Speaker 1: the fact that it got on the ballot and Davis

2144
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:51,000
Speaker 1: was going to get recalled, suddenly it was a much

2145
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:53,920
Speaker 1: lighter left. He didn't have to go through a primary. Right,

2146
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:55,599
Speaker 1: and this was before they even had a top two

2147
01:53:55,600 --> 01:54:00,439
Speaker 1: in California, but the recall ballot ended up being all party,

2148
01:54:01,280 --> 01:54:03,920
Speaker 1: all candidates on the same party. Back then, Arnold was

2149
01:54:03,960 --> 01:54:06,639
Speaker 1: a modern Republican, and he might have struggled to win

2150
01:54:06,800 --> 01:54:10,719
Speaker 1: a conventional Republican primary, which is was among the reasons

2151
01:54:10,760 --> 01:54:13,840
Speaker 1: why he was staying out of electoral politics. And it

2152
01:54:13,880 --> 01:54:17,240
Speaker 1: wasn't until the basically a loophole showed up, which in

2153
01:54:17,280 --> 01:54:19,519
Speaker 1: this case was the recall that got him in to

2154
01:54:19,560 --> 01:54:26,120
Speaker 1: do it. So, look, candidates, party leaders constantly are searching

2155
01:54:26,200 --> 01:54:29,800
Speaker 1: for what you're just saying. I mean, I think you

2156
01:54:29,840 --> 01:54:31,960
Speaker 1: know that you want to. I was just talking with

2157
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:35,080
Speaker 1: a gentleman who came to this event featuring you know,

2158
01:54:35,560 --> 01:54:37,560
Speaker 1: independence and trying to figure out how you can create

2159
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 1: more of a movement so that independents, you know, don't

2160
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:43,920
Speaker 1: get drowned by money from team Red or team blue.

2161
01:54:43,960 --> 01:54:51,640
Speaker 1: When when when they actually get competitive? And I met

2162
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:54,040
Speaker 1: this I met this one gentleman and he was and

2163
01:54:54,080 --> 01:54:55,960
Speaker 1: he was saying, you know, do I have the right

2164
01:54:56,120 --> 01:54:58,880
Speaker 1: profile to run for office? And he goes and he

2165
01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:01,800
Speaker 1: was telling me his profile and he started his own

2166
01:55:01,840 --> 01:55:04,360
Speaker 1: business and he turned it into a multimillion dollar bet.

2167
01:55:04,360 --> 01:55:06,280
Speaker 1: I said, I'm gonna stop you right there. I said,

2168
01:55:06,440 --> 01:55:10,280
Speaker 1: the greatest halo effect for a candidate description when you

2169
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:12,520
Speaker 1: go to voters is not celebrity and somebody you know,

2170
01:55:12,600 --> 01:55:19,320
Speaker 1: it's self made business person. Immediately voters want to hear more.

2171
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:23,400
Speaker 1: Now they may you know, if especially if they've like

2172
01:55:23,520 --> 01:55:26,440
Speaker 1: a brick and mortar business, like building their own business,

2173
01:55:26,560 --> 01:55:30,800
Speaker 1: that sort of business. Not Wall Street, not that kind

2174
01:55:30,840 --> 01:55:35,160
Speaker 1: of of business person. But really somebody who you know,

2175
01:55:35,360 --> 01:55:39,640
Speaker 1: meets a payroll, you know, makes a product or does

2176
01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:46,120
Speaker 1: a service that helps everyday people. That's actually some of

2177
01:55:46,160 --> 01:55:49,440
Speaker 1: the bed. There are two great halo effects for first

2178
01:55:49,440 --> 01:55:51,720
Speaker 1: time candidates. One is what I just described in business,

2179
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:55,840
Speaker 1: and the other's military veteran, especially if military veteran comes

2180
01:55:55,840 --> 01:55:59,240
Speaker 1: with Medal of Honor, purple heart, things like that. So

2181
01:55:59,560 --> 01:56:01,760
Speaker 1: the celebt everything. It's kind of interesting for you and

2182
01:56:01,760 --> 01:56:06,800
Speaker 1: I to talk about. But in some ways, the ideal

2183
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:10,800
Speaker 1: candidate profile for the voter is self made business person

2184
01:56:10,880 --> 01:56:14,000
Speaker 1: who wants to give back to the government, or somebody

2185
01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:18,200
Speaker 1: who's who you know, who offered up their blood for

2186
01:56:18,280 --> 01:56:22,520
Speaker 1: the country by serving in the military, is and is

2187
01:56:22,560 --> 01:56:25,280
Speaker 1: willing to continue in public service. Those are probably the

2188
01:56:25,280 --> 01:56:27,200
Speaker 1: two best Profilesta all right, I'm going to do one

2189
01:56:27,200 --> 01:56:30,960
Speaker 1: more question. This comes from Barbara B. I really enjoyed

2190
01:56:30,960 --> 01:56:33,520
Speaker 1: the Lena Khan interview. It was very enlightening. Your comments

2191
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:36,040
Speaker 1: about the faulty AI info you found on a search

2192
01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:37,920
Speaker 1: of your name made me wonder what might have happened.

2193
01:56:37,920 --> 01:56:40,520
Speaker 1: If the mistaken information said that you had died, how

2194
01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:43,000
Speaker 1: do you think that might reverberate across the internet. Can

2195
01:56:43,040 --> 01:56:44,840
Speaker 1: you imagine how hard it might be for someone who's

2196
01:56:44,840 --> 01:56:48,200
Speaker 1: not a public figure to disprove something like that. To

2197
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:50,480
Speaker 1: keep up the good work, Barbara, this is exactly why

2198
01:56:50,480 --> 01:56:54,320
Speaker 1: I brought up this situation, you know, because my son

2199
01:56:54,360 --> 01:56:57,160
Speaker 1: asked me the same question. By the way, it turned out,

2200
01:56:57,200 --> 01:56:58,880
Speaker 1: he never said this to me when I when I

2201
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:02,040
Speaker 1: went public with this with this situation. He goes, Dad,

2202
01:57:02,040 --> 01:57:05,880
Speaker 1: my friends have been telling me about you with asking

2203
01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:08,280
Speaker 1: me about you with Parkinson's for months. And he goes,

2204
01:57:08,320 --> 01:57:09,840
Speaker 1: and I kept telling him there's nothing too, that it's

2205
01:57:09,880 --> 01:57:11,800
Speaker 1: just a bad rumor. And he goes, I didn't bother

2206
01:57:11,840 --> 01:57:14,840
Speaker 1: telling you about it at home, And I said, you know,

2207
01:57:15,040 --> 01:57:17,880
Speaker 1: I said okay. But then he asked me a very

2208
01:57:17,920 --> 01:57:20,600
Speaker 1: similar question. He goes, I see that once you said something,

2209
01:57:20,600 --> 01:57:22,760
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, they got to fix it. He says,

2210
01:57:23,600 --> 01:57:26,400
Speaker 1: what if you weren't Chuck Todd? And I said, well, I,

2211
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:29,080
Speaker 1: first of all, I don't know how much Chuck, how

2212
01:57:29,120 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 1: much influence Chuck Todd has anymore. Sorry, I'm channeling my

2213
01:57:32,680 --> 01:57:37,680
Speaker 1: old Bob Dole. But that is I think that's a

2214
01:57:37,760 --> 01:57:43,800
Speaker 1: very fair concern. And you know, you've you've you've I've

2215
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:47,440
Speaker 1: read stories what you just described where somebody is accidentally

2216
01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:50,800
Speaker 1: declared dead because maybe somebody you know, had the wrong

2217
01:57:50,840 --> 01:57:53,360
Speaker 1: middle initial on a death certificate and it ended up

2218
01:57:53,400 --> 01:57:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, getting ready, you know, you you know this

2219
01:57:56,080 --> 01:57:58,080
Speaker 1: is something that has happened before, but you're right on

2220
01:57:58,120 --> 01:58:01,200
Speaker 1: the internet it is. And I think this is the

2221
01:58:01,640 --> 01:58:04,760
Speaker 1: This gets it to what. I brought this up in

2222
01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:07,400
Speaker 1: a previous podcast, but I can't remember which one, so

2223
01:58:07,440 --> 01:58:10,840
Speaker 1: I'll repeat myself. I think I've told you about a

2224
01:58:10,880 --> 01:58:13,680
Speaker 1: project that Frank McCourt, the former owner of the Dodgers,

2225
01:58:14,080 --> 01:58:17,000
Speaker 1: had put together called Project Liberty, and one of his

2226
01:58:17,080 --> 01:58:20,640
Speaker 1: motivations he wrote this book about about sort of trying

2227
01:58:20,640 --> 01:58:24,800
Speaker 1: to reclaim our data from big tech. And one of

2228
01:58:24,840 --> 01:58:27,800
Speaker 1: the points he was making is he describes in the

2229
01:58:27,800 --> 01:58:31,320
Speaker 1: book you know, look, Frank McCourt's ownership of the Dodgers

2230
01:58:31,360 --> 01:58:35,960
Speaker 1: is most infamous for the high profile divorce which forced

2231
01:58:36,040 --> 01:58:41,400
Speaker 1: them to sell. It became a storyline on Curb Your Enthusiasm, right,

2232
01:58:41,760 --> 01:58:45,280
Speaker 1: that was a rip from the headlines. And so because

2233
01:58:45,280 --> 01:58:48,760
Speaker 1: of the settlement, you know, they didn't neither Frank or

2234
01:58:48,840 --> 01:58:50,880
Speaker 1: Jamie McCourt had enough money to buy the other one out,

2235
01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:52,200
Speaker 1: so they had to sell the team in order to

2236
01:58:52,240 --> 01:58:57,160
Speaker 1: settle their divorce. It has been some fifteen years since

2237
01:58:57,200 --> 01:59:00,520
Speaker 1: their divorce, and to this day, if you google Frank McCord,

2238
01:59:00,600 --> 01:59:02,840
Speaker 1: it's among the first things that comes up. And this

2239
01:59:03,000 --> 01:59:06,360
Speaker 1: was sort of this was something he's like, at what

2240
01:59:06,560 --> 01:59:09,440
Speaker 1: point is that? You know, he goes my ex wife

2241
01:59:09,480 --> 01:59:13,920
Speaker 1: and I they both remarried. They both have a pretty

2242
01:59:13,920 --> 01:59:16,760
Speaker 1: good relationship because they had kids, their adult children now

2243
01:59:16,800 --> 01:59:20,360
Speaker 1: they all get along at family gatherings, et cetera. But

2244
01:59:20,480 --> 01:59:23,160
Speaker 1: his identity on the internet, if you google them immediately

2245
01:59:23,160 --> 01:59:24,760
Speaker 1: sort of goes back to that moment. It's like, when

2246
01:59:25,080 --> 01:59:27,680
Speaker 1: when do you get to control your own biography, your

2247
01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:31,400
Speaker 1: own persona, who you are? And the fact is we

2248
01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:35,320
Speaker 1: have no, we don't have any control of that, right

2249
01:59:35,480 --> 01:59:38,200
Speaker 1: they do. And this was his he you know, his

2250
01:59:38,240 --> 01:59:39,960
Speaker 1: whole thing, and it's a little pie in the sky,

2251
01:59:40,080 --> 01:59:43,280
Speaker 1: but he basically wants to sort of reorient the internet

2252
01:59:43,360 --> 01:59:45,760
Speaker 1: right now. If you think about it, when you agree

2253
01:59:45,800 --> 01:59:48,400
Speaker 1: to terms and services, you agree to terms and services

2254
01:59:48,840 --> 01:59:55,040
Speaker 1: on Google or Apple or Amazon's terms, they don't agree

2255
01:59:55,040 --> 01:59:59,600
Speaker 1: to terms and services on the user's terms, we don't

2256
01:59:59,600 --> 02:00:02,320
Speaker 1: get to tell them you know, yes, you're you know.

2257
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:05,680
Speaker 1: Thanks to the EU privacy laws, there's you can control

2258
02:00:05,760 --> 02:00:08,840
Speaker 1: some cookies now, right. Not every website allows it, but

2259
02:00:08,920 --> 02:00:11,680
Speaker 1: in some website you can control some cookies, especially those

2260
02:00:12,040 --> 02:00:15,720
Speaker 1: that cater to your European users. But that is a

2261
02:00:15,920 --> 02:00:19,520
Speaker 1: I think, a fundamental issue where we don't control our

2262
02:00:19,520 --> 02:00:22,839
Speaker 1: own persona. But you know, one of the more interesting

2263
02:00:22,920 --> 02:00:27,680
Speaker 1: generational divides on the issue of privacy. For whatever reason,

2264
02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:31,880
Speaker 1: millennials and Gen Z don't view privacy with the same

2265
02:00:33,200 --> 02:00:36,760
Speaker 1: sort of concern that older that Gen X or baby

2266
02:00:36,760 --> 02:00:39,200
Speaker 1: boomers do. And I think part of it is that

2267
02:00:39,240 --> 02:00:42,080
Speaker 1: they've they've been sort of Internet native, right, and there

2268
02:00:42,680 --> 02:00:45,080
Speaker 1: their whole lives. They in some ways they voluntarily have

2269
02:00:45,160 --> 02:00:47,880
Speaker 1: put their personas on the Internet, right, and and they've

2270
02:00:47,880 --> 02:00:51,640
Speaker 1: sort of just they've they've been on the whole time,

2271
02:00:51,720 --> 02:00:57,080
Speaker 1: their whole lives. And I think until I guess I

2272
02:00:57,080 --> 02:00:59,800
Speaker 1: would make a plea with my millennial friends here, will

2273
02:00:59,800 --> 02:01:06,480
Speaker 1: you please get angry about privacy and data? I understand

2274
02:01:06,520 --> 02:01:09,120
Speaker 1: why you assume it's too late, Genie's already out of

2275
02:01:09,120 --> 02:01:12,960
Speaker 1: the bottle, But there are things like this, like, you know,

2276
02:01:13,240 --> 02:01:15,600
Speaker 1: how do we know if we can? Hey, you say

2277
02:01:15,640 --> 02:01:18,360
Speaker 1: I'm dead, I'm alive. What do I have to do

2278
02:01:18,440 --> 02:01:22,400
Speaker 1: to tell you this? Right? Things like that getting I

2279
02:01:22,760 --> 02:01:28,000
Speaker 1: think this is an issue that if when you when

2280
02:01:28,000 --> 02:01:29,680
Speaker 1: you start to talk to people about you're like, hey,

2281
02:01:29,680 --> 02:01:33,120
Speaker 1: you're right, I should have more control of this. But

2282
02:01:33,800 --> 02:01:36,600
Speaker 1: we have sort of almost surrendered this idea that we

2283
02:01:36,640 --> 02:01:41,800
Speaker 1: can somehow wrestle our You know, who owns the data? Right?

2284
02:01:42,280 --> 02:01:46,800
Speaker 1: Do we own our own data? Or does the does

2285
02:01:47,720 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 1: the tech company who gathered all of our data individually

2286
02:01:52,600 --> 02:01:54,760
Speaker 1: and put it into one larger file and made a

2287
02:01:54,880 --> 02:02:00,200
Speaker 1: unique product. Do they own that unique product? One of

2288
02:02:00,240 --> 02:02:06,760
Speaker 1: us are shareholders of our own data within that unique product?

2289
02:02:07,720 --> 02:02:10,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is why I always joke why

2290
02:02:10,600 --> 02:02:13,280
Speaker 1: God invented trial lawyers? Some trial lawyers going to figure

2291
02:02:13,280 --> 02:02:17,200
Speaker 1: out a class action suit on this, uh, and then

2292
02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:20,880
Speaker 1: some and and at some point I'd like to think

2293
02:02:20,920 --> 02:02:25,880
Speaker 1: that that there'll be some a political sort of a

2294
02:02:26,080 --> 02:02:29,440
Speaker 1: rise from the electorate, if you will, about this issue.

2295
02:02:29,440 --> 02:02:33,320
Speaker 1: But look, this is this what you just asked about.

2296
02:02:35,280 --> 02:02:36,880
Speaker 1: You know, what do you do if you're not you know,

2297
02:02:36,920 --> 02:02:38,920
Speaker 1: if you if you don't have a platform like the

2298
02:02:38,960 --> 02:02:41,640
Speaker 1: one I have in order to say, hey, Google, you

2299
02:02:41,720 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 1: messed up. If you don't have that kind of platform,

2300
02:02:46,080 --> 02:02:48,200
Speaker 1: how do you how do you wrestle control of your

2301
02:02:48,200 --> 02:02:50,360
Speaker 1: own persona. I think this is I think this should

2302
02:02:50,400 --> 02:02:54,720
Speaker 1: be a bigger concern, and I think government should be

2303
02:02:55,360 --> 02:02:57,040
Speaker 1: a bit more on the side of the consumer on

2304
02:02:57,040 --> 02:03:02,320
Speaker 1: this one. All right, I am I gonna did five questions,

2305
02:03:02,520 --> 02:03:04,720
Speaker 1: all right. I will try to get better because we're

2306
02:03:04,720 --> 02:03:06,800
Speaker 1: getting more questions from you guys. I appreciate it. You

2307
02:03:06,800 --> 02:03:09,200
Speaker 1: can send it to ask Chuck at chucktodcast dot com.

2308
02:03:09,240 --> 02:03:13,000
Speaker 1: You can leave a question the Instagram feed, TikTok feed,

2309
02:03:13,200 --> 02:03:18,600
Speaker 1: YouTube feed, send me a DM on X. I'm not

2310
02:03:18,640 --> 02:03:21,720
Speaker 1: going to really look at replies on X. That's toxic

2311
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:25,520
Speaker 1: bot stuff, but dms I will. I keep my dms open,

2312
02:03:25,560 --> 02:03:29,200
Speaker 1: so you're welcome to come in on that front. However

2313
02:03:29,240 --> 02:03:31,640
Speaker 1: you want to get a question to us, we do

2314
02:03:31,760 --> 02:03:34,000
Speaker 1: our best to scoop it up and put it in

2315
02:03:34,080 --> 02:03:37,560
Speaker 1: the queue to get to it at some point. All right.

2316
02:03:37,560 --> 02:03:42,480
Speaker 1: With that, I hope you enjoy your weekend. Barring massive

2317
02:03:42,520 --> 02:03:47,160
Speaker 1: breaking news or Congress returning to deal with Epstein, I

2318
02:03:47,240 --> 02:03:51,360
Speaker 1: will upload again, probably in the next ninety six hours,

2319
02:03:51,400 --> 02:03:53,120
Speaker 1: and with that until I upload again.