1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Barely a week passes without a missile launch or a 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: nuclear test in North Korea, But what about the economy? 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: When attention does focus on the economy, the country is 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: mostly characterized as an economic backwater compared with its southern neighbor. 5 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: It has no global brands like Hunday or Samsung, and 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: it's only a few years ago that famine was reported 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: to be widespread in the countryside. The only thing the 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: place had going for it were nukes and a financial 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: lifeline from China, but that may all be changing. Welcomed 10 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: benchmarkers show about the global economy. I'm Daniel Moss, economics 11 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: columnist for Bloomberg View in New York, and I'm scot Landman, 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: an economics editor with Bloomberg News in Washington. Lately, there 13 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: are signs that the North economic picture is brightening, admittedly 14 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: from a very low base. Its economy grew almost four 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: percent last year, faster than the US. It has a 16 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: lot of catching up to do. Gross domestic product is 17 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: a little less than thirty billion. To put that in comparison, 18 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: South Korea's economy is about one point four trillion. But 19 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: the North economy may be changing quickly, thanks largely to 20 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: markets both legal and illegal. What markets? What's going on here? 21 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: Isn't this the ultimate stalinist state? And to what extent 22 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: is it emboldening North Korea? And could it also be 23 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: a sign of weakness? Now joining us to explain this 24 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: boom that nobody noticed is b y Kim, a professor 25 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: at Soul National University and the author of the well 26 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: timed recent book Unveiling the North Korean Economy Collapse and Transition. Professor, 27 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us where it's your evening and 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: our morning. That's right, Thank you so much for having 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: me today, Professor. Let's start with the basics. How is 30 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: North Korea's economy doing right now? But the economy has 31 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: been stabilized. If you remember the famine in the ninety late, 32 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: a lot of people have died because of bamin. At 33 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: that time we estimated about six hundred thousand people have 34 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: died of stabation. But now nobody talked about the stabation 35 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: in North Korea anymore. That is, although there is malutriction 36 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: on the nourishment, but sturbation is now remote. So economy 37 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: has been okay and stabilized. And the ad mentioned economic 38 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: cross rate last year recorded three point nine percent panem 39 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 1: and so what is driving the economy, Professor? What are 40 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: the main UH commodities? Trade? What's going on? How are 41 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: people getting their money? How is North Korea getting its 42 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: products and delivering them to the outside world. Yeah, I 43 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: think there are three factors which drive the economic growth. 44 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: The first one is markets. Nowadays, North Koreans lion markets 45 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: for survival and for prosperity for some people. And about 46 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: seventy nine of house income drives from markets, and fifty 47 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: people participate in the official economy while seventy percent people 48 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: work informally. Therefore, in North Korea, although it's socialist country, 49 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: market dominates in reality. The second factor is trade. Norse 50 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: create can be regarded as being open economy in terms 51 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: of the share of a trade in g d P, 52 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: which is about fifty percent. World average is a pip 53 00:03:54,760 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: eight percent. Therefore, North Korea is open economy. That might 54 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: surprise many listeners, Professor, given the images we have that 55 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of a gray hermatic nation sealed off from 56 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: the rest of the world, with a population that's basically enslaved. 57 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: How has what you've described gone so unnoticed that that's correct? 58 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: Because the image of North Korea was based on politics 59 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: and security from the prospective of politics anstuity, not from 60 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: econic perspectives. And these changes have occurred in the middle 61 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: and late nine nineties. They call it arvious much and 62 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean many people have died of starvation and therefore 63 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: markets emerged unnoticed because people were transjecting are if possible 64 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: in markets for survival. And afterwards that the government applied 65 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: zig policy on arche activity. Sometimes they try to press. 66 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes they applied blind eyes to the activities. So it's 67 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: rather too zack. But the process of expansion of markets 68 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: has been a coding for the last fifteen years and 69 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: the current leader, Kim John has actually given somewhat of 70 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: a blessing to these markets. If I'm not mistaken, Can 71 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: you explain, you know what's going on here, and you 72 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: know how they're helping the economy function. You know, how 73 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: are people able to get the money to buy commodities 74 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: or to even participate in these markets that you talk about? Right? Uh? 75 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: If you remember there was currency formed in post online. 76 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: They somehow trying to repress markets by forcing a conversion 77 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: of the older currency with the new currency, with some 78 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: buildings that intended the shrinkageer markets because the the authorities 79 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: and Kim jong Il so far, the Kim Joan regarded 80 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 1: markets as a domain or budua, and so they applied 81 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: at this uh policy against markets that reduced market activities. 82 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: But they've failed, and the prime minister apologized to people 83 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: and they pointed out one person escape good and he 84 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: was shot to death. And I imagine that Kim Donan 85 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: might have realized without markets, the economy would not go 86 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: well and people not survive, and therefore he accepted the 87 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 1: markets because it's sel safety. But on the other hand, 88 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: he thought by himself, okay, handle on the markets, okay 89 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: right now, because it sustained the economy and well repaire people. 90 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, markets could become a danger 91 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: or enemy in the long run, that's what should I do? 92 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: And perhaps he wants to concentrate on development of nucle 93 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: weapons and missiles in that way can protect his power 94 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: from extra or extra force. So we see economic upswing 95 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: emboldening Kim or is Kim's behavior a product of markets 96 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: weakening him? That's right, since short run markets helped him 97 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: to maintain power. By long run it weakens the power. 98 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: But that is a dilemma he faces because of market 99 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: tiation in Thus Korea and this market activities are intertwined 100 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: with the trade for in trade because fort in t 101 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: trade provides resources to markets, also provides a pertunent power 102 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: for market demand. Therefore, these markets and trades are like 103 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: twins ultiple. Aside the coins UH, exposing Kim the power 104 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: to afford in trade and markets could have been danger 105 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: if something occurs regarding these perfective Now, if you look 106 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: at North Korea's neighbor China, they opened up their economy 107 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: forty years ago, UH, and they still are engaged in 108 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: this perennial struggle over how much of the economy to 109 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: open to markets and how much should still be controlled 110 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: by the state, and how that threatens the power of 111 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: the Communist party. And I think a lot of people 112 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: probably were making similar predictions years ago that you know, 113 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: that once China really opened up their economy, that it 114 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: would risk the power of the Communist party. But in fact, 115 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: the parties today seems to be very strong, and you know, 116 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: has has somehow balanced this opening up of the economy 117 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: with um, you know, maintaining control and staying in power. 118 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: Do you think that's possible it to happen in North 119 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: Korea as well well. For time being, I don't think 120 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: that it is possibility in North Korea. If you look 121 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: at the Chinese case that there were change in power. 122 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: Part of power from Mata Tom, Tomsha Pin and Tom 123 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: Pinch reformed the economy because in that way he was 124 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: able to stabilize the power. But in the case of 125 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: Kim Znan, his a power base is from his father 126 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: and grandfather, and so it did held for him to 127 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: deny the foundation of to chideology, which is inherited from 128 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: his father and grandfather. Different situations. In North Korea you 129 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: have the Party of Kim. In China you have the 130 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: Communist Party, so it's a little different, that's right. I 131 00:09:54,800 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: think political change transformation proceeded economic transformation in China, but 132 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,439 Speaker 1: we don't see this political transformation in those Korea. That 133 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: is the biggest obstacle. But if you look at this 134 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: problem from different perspectives, there is a possibility for him 135 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: to be fought to take that road Chinese road or reform. 136 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: Why because well, he may have to confront the expansion 137 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: markets at some point he had to choose should I 138 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: compromise or should I depressed market activities. But the latter 139 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: maybe too riska for him. Then he may take the 140 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: first option to compromise on markets. Then they could the 141 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: possibility that Chinese tire reform can take place in Those Korea. 142 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: But critical to China's economic growth as it opened up 143 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: its economy and as market reform strengthened was the role 144 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: of foreign direct investment the manufacture of goods for use 145 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: in Europe and North America in China. It's tough to 146 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: see that happening in North Korea as long as there 147 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: is a nuclear program exactly. That's why I think it's 148 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: the the growth sustain away and fust growth in uh 149 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: in long period were they possible um as long as 150 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: they had to euklepans and long ridge missile development. Let's 151 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: talk more about China, Professor. China does play a role 152 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: in helping North Korea's economy. They really are the gateway 153 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: to a lot of this trade. And it's hard to 154 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: see North Korea's economy doing what it is without having 155 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: some degree of support from China, which which can really 156 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: affect whether North whether the North Korean economy lives or 157 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: or collapses. Is that right, Yeah, that's right. Yes, But 158 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: if you look at the Chinese role in North Korea. 159 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: I would say that the political leverage is limited given 160 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: nowadays circumstances relations between aus Korea and China. But China 161 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: has you know, almost leverage economically. So China can choose 162 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: say between zero zero means no pressure on North Korea, 163 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: one means destabilizing in North Korea economy and society, and 164 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: they can choose. I think any point between zero and 165 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: at what point are we now, well, that's a good question. Well, 166 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,199 Speaker 1: I think it's the if North Korea feels real pain, 167 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 1: I would saying that should be say seventy or eighty. 168 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: I think now it's the the extandard pain would be 169 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: about the fifty or sixty. It's a bit lower then 170 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: say optimal level of pressure. And what amount of pressure 171 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: due to the international sanctions have on North Korea such 172 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: as the most recent round approved by the United Nations, right, 173 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: I think all together, including the most recent one uh 174 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: UNS sc UNS count resolution. I think if the level 175 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: is about the sixty sixty as we are a bit 176 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: lower than optimal level or pressure. So when we talk 177 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: about a greater role for markets in the economy, ultimately, professor, 178 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: is North Korea going to be China or is it 179 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 1: going to be the Soviet Union. One ended well, the 180 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: other market experiment did not well. I think these two 181 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: possibilities are quite open. I don't know which way they 182 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: able to go. I can't allowed the scenario which is 183 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: our preferred one. But if I evaluate the possible nity 184 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: right now, I will say the second scenario is more 185 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: possible because, Uh, it's difficult for him to accept make 186 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: reform given his circumstances and the power base, and try 187 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: to find against markets. Then some violent eruption or power 188 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: struggle may violent say struggle, power struggle may erupt in 189 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: North Korea that could end the system. Then they may 190 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: lead the way of that's a transition towards Russia. Professor, 191 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: let me ask the question that's on everybody's minds. You're 192 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: an expert on the economic situation in North Korea, and 193 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: the topic that we hear most about, of course, is 194 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: what's happening with with with Kim's nuclear tests. Uh, you know, 195 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: all the developments there at the different source that they 196 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: have been testing. Uh. What is your personal opinion or 197 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: how much concern do you have that this will end 198 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: badly for everybody? That there will be some sort of 199 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: attack from North Korea on perhaps Soul or somewhere else, 200 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: and you know that it would be a nuclear attack. 201 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: How much is that concern in your mind or fear 202 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: in your mind? Well, I'm concerned as from being because 203 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:35,119 Speaker 1: is if that is kind of military conflict in peninsula, 204 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: it could have devast an effects on people here. Therefore, 205 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: I'm worried. However, the possibility of having one in the 206 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: count Peninsula is limited for the same reason I explained, 207 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: because the damage is too large. Prepare uh from the 208 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: roast quin perspective him that perspective, I don't think he 209 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: well initiate anyone against the United States or against South 210 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: Korea Japan, because I I believe he's a rational person. 211 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: Although he's a cruel He wants to be seen as 212 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: a mandy man. But I think he's a rational guy 213 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: and he knows that if the texts militarily the United States, 214 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: South Korea, Japan, that means the end of his regime 215 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: and himself. So he's a person who loses everything. He's 216 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: the only person I think who is that the person, uh, 217 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: you know who whose damaged his largest by this kind 218 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: of a military conflict. But therefore, he would are there 219 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: to start anywhere against other countries. Professor thank you for 220 00:16:53,680 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you so much. Well, Scott, the real 221 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: surprise here from talking to Professor Kim is just how 222 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: vibrant he makes the North Korean economy sound, and that 223 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: really isn't the way it's been portrayed. Well, it might 224 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: be vibrant compared with how it was ten or twenty 225 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: years ago, but you know, compared with its southern neighbor 226 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: or China or Japan, it's far. I think it's still 227 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: far far from being anywhere close to those And I 228 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: guess the interesting point of tension is as North Korea 229 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: tries to adopt market reforms, does it become like China, 230 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: where markets have grown the economy and cemented the group 231 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: of the party, or does it go down the root 232 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union, where market reforms ultimately exposed the 233 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: weakness of the party's control and foreshadowed it's collapse. Well, 234 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: it's interesting you say that, because the Chinese have really 235 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: they they've made it their business to take the lessons 236 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: from the collapse of the Soviet Union and to not 237 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: make those kinds of mistakes that led to the Communist 238 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: Party's collapse in in the U. S. SR. And instead, 239 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, take them, take those away and do their 240 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 1: best to balance the markets and stay control of the 241 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: economy that's kept them in power in China. And like 242 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 1: the professor said, Uh, you know, you have a big 243 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: difference here. Where As in North Korea it's the Kim 244 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: family that's trying to stay in power, whereas Uh in 245 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: the Communist Party in China has found a way to 246 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: transition power from one generation to the next roughly every 247 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: ten years. Um, so it's a party verse as a 248 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: family exactly. Benchmark will be back next week and until then, 249 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: you can find us on the Bloomberg terminal, Bloomberg dot com, 250 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: l Bloomberg app, as well as on Apple Podcasts, pocket 251 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: casts and stitch it. While you're there, take a minute, 252 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: rate and review the show so more listeners can find 253 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: us and let us know what you thought. You can 254 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at Moss Underscore Echo Scott I'm 255 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: at at Scott Landman. Benchmark is produced by Sarah Patterson. 256 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time.