Speaker 1: Uh, we're waiting on reparations. Uh uh dis the history book.
Speaker 1: So let me tell you the tailor featt Labina Communist
Speaker 1: part of the deprection era, TIY getting scared off for
Speaker 1: the sheriffs and share cropping for bear from the black folks.
Speaker 1: Parado with the fair forms. You came and said, I folks,
Speaker 1: they try to turn your lights off or to not you.
Speaker 1: Right the book we run up on the move rightful
Speaker 1: to live, susicidal, but the black folks was kind of weird.
Speaker 1: They couldn't really read. But they consist of him too.
Speaker 1: Then and then this alliance and red and black and
Speaker 1: the white would later lay the frame before the fights
Speaker 1: of Rosa Parks and Aye Davis. So when they say
Speaker 1: that it's boxing gets the grave and punch of racist historically,
Speaker 1: the kind of holds up. Actually, you're listening to waiting
Speaker 1: on reparation, the production of Iheartard, good morning or afternoon
Speaker 1: or pending on when you're listening to this. If you're
Speaker 1: listening to this when it just came out, then happy St.
Speaker 1: Patrick's Day, yeah, or if or if it's after that, Um,
Speaker 1: take some baby profen, you'll drink some waters. Um calling
Speaker 1: calling to work calling sick. I don't need you, It wouldn't.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe if you're like a school crossing guard
Speaker 1: for like an elementary school, maybe don't call out the
Speaker 1: children needs you. But I mean otherwise who cares. Very fine.
Speaker 1: I think everybody's definitely gonna take notice of the subdued
Speaker 1: intro this morning, I know why the hell I'm tired?
Speaker 1: What why are you? So? I am in Waco, Texas
Speaker 1: this morning? Your drove to Waco. So yeah, see what
Speaker 1: happened was see what had happened was, um, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go to the south by Southwest UM. And we had
Speaker 1: a show in Birmingham and Saturday in Birmingham a couple
Speaker 1: of days. Decided to talk to you all about some
Speaker 1: of that, um you know which has inspired this week's episode.
Speaker 1: So Young a Bremenham for a couple of days, which
Speaker 1: worked my interest in doing this show. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: our hope to drive about halfway and stop was shattered
Speaker 1: when we got to the hotel that we had booked
Speaker 1: um online and it was not only mad sketchy, it
Speaker 1: was so sketchy that we rolled up to check in
Speaker 1: and they were like, oh yeah, we don't accept the
Speaker 1: electronic payment. I was like, what do you mean I
Speaker 1: paid online for Then they were like, nah, it doesn't count,
Speaker 1: it doesn't count. So I'm pretty sure these I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure these cats just took my money and just you
Speaker 1: wouldn't give us a room. And so, man, there's just
Speaker 1: so much to unpack about everywhere we've been so far.
Speaker 1: But ultimately we like tried to find hotels like, you know,
Speaker 1: an hour out, two hours out, and finally we're just like, yo, look, Paul,
Speaker 1: grandma lives in Wago. We make it a way goo good.
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, it's just me as holm with
Speaker 1: you know, Grandma, etcetera. But um, so we ended up driving,
Speaker 1: you know, we might to drive like six hours. I
Speaker 1: ended up being Mark Elevan, So my voice may sound
Speaker 1: a bit scrutchy, and I may seeund a bit tired
Speaker 1: because that happened. But I mean, along the way, a
Speaker 1: lot of really dopeness has transpired. So part of why
Speaker 1: getting here took us along because we stopped for three
Speaker 1: hours in jack Mississippi and had lunch with Jerry Mitchell.
Speaker 1: Are you feeling with Jerry Mitchell's Jerry Mitchell is the
Speaker 1: investigative reporter that solved the unsolved murders of Mega Everts
Speaker 1: and of the case of the Birmingham church bombings and
Speaker 1: a number of other like civil rights cold cases. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so like this was the dude that put a
Speaker 1: bunch of klansmen in jail for like murdering civil rights heroes.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there was a there was a movie about
Speaker 1: the trial for like the killer of Betyar Everest called
Speaker 1: The Ghost of Mississippi with Alec Baldwin and Woopy Goldberg
Speaker 1: and James Would I believe, But I wonder, I can't remember.
Speaker 1: I wonder who played that reporter that because I'm sure
Speaker 1: he would have to have been a character that I
Speaker 1: gotta look it up. And also he was super cool
Speaker 1: and nice. I would love to have him on the
Speaker 1: show to talk about his work. Um as well. In Birmingham,
Speaker 1: we had the opportunity to hang out with Isaiah Thomas,
Speaker 1: that one of the lee organizers of the Amazon unionization
Speaker 1: effort twenty years old Ball of Lightning, Like I thought
Speaker 1: you meant the Isaiah Thomas, I'm sorry, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no. Was cool. So lots of interesting Birmingham history uncovered,
Speaker 1: and of course in this trip that I would love
Speaker 1: us to you know, touch on in like a multiply
Speaker 1: MultiPark series on the city, because yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: an awesome idea of I mean, just from the stuff
Speaker 1: that we got for today, it's it's definitely a rich
Speaker 1: history that you can really dig into. Birmingham is a
Speaker 1: wild place, has been, perhaps always will be. I've only
Speaker 1: been I've only been to Birmingham once. I think it
Speaker 1: was to do like a it's like secret Stages or something.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, wait so we um we played the Syndicate
Speaker 1: Lounge for this hip hop series called The Bottom Mix.
Speaker 1: Actually hung out with Brish. Yeah. So um, rich history,
Speaker 1: rich music scene, that lots to cover. So today we're
Speaker 1: going to dig on into some lesser known history um
Speaker 1: of Birmingham. We'll see what we'll see what we get
Speaker 1: there a month to return to the topic because there's
Speaker 1: so much to say. But you're about to get out
Speaker 1: on the road yourself. It was my understanding. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: doing like a short little run. I'm doing some St.
Speaker 1: Patty's show tomorrow and then I'm doing something else in
Speaker 1: North Carolina the day after that. So it's just gonna
Speaker 1: be you know, a traveling weekend and I'm also um
Speaker 1: coming out with a new there's a new EP that
Speaker 1: I was dropping with an Atlanta producer named Josiah Soren.
Speaker 1: But it's like a low fi, jazzy sort of thing.
Speaker 1: It's just like, you know, three songs. But we've we've
Speaker 1: been cutting the video and it's like running down to
Speaker 1: the wire. So it's like in between the podcast and
Speaker 1: the video then having to go out of town this
Speaker 1: and then our city in Savannah. Savannah has last time
Speaker 1: I checked, I think like the third or fourth biggest St.
Speaker 1: Patrick's Day like celebration, I guess in the country here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's weird, right, but like we're about to have an
Speaker 1: influx of like two hundred thousand people. Yeah, so it's
Speaker 1: it's about to be crazy here. Where to park, It's
Speaker 1: it's it's everything's whack, and you know, it's just been
Speaker 1: a hectic week. So we don't want to we don't
Speaker 1: want a front. Our aesthetic is is you know, we
Speaker 1: can real low five boom bad. This is going to
Speaker 1: be very much in the spirit of those you know,
Speaker 1: MF Doom transitions between anime cartoons at one AM, where
Speaker 1: it's kind of like hazy, laid back. Yeah, as we
Speaker 1: get into some less of known history of the city
Speaker 1: of Birmingham. Event all right, we'll be with that after
Speaker 1: the jump. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we are back. So
Speaker 1: you have this adventure in Birmingham. Where do you want
Speaker 1: to start as far as like the history or something
Speaker 1: about it that not too many people know about. So,
Speaker 1: I mean I would characterize this as like quote unquote
Speaker 1: all the way act. But and thinking about that, I
Speaker 1: imagine there's even while their history even farther back than
Speaker 1: you know here, the Great Depression era, um, if we
Speaker 1: get into slave re abolition, indigenous folks, etcetera. But I
Speaker 1: did want to start out talking about this era because
Speaker 1: it is well documented in Robin D. G. Kelly's book
Speaker 1: Hammer and Hoe, from which we take the title of
Speaker 1: this episode. Um. So while we're talking about the Depression era,
Speaker 1: I wanted to also capture this as a part of
Speaker 1: a larger tendency in the media to sort of just
Speaker 1: like forget about the South, like we like, despite the
Speaker 1: fact we have this very rich history of liberation struggle,
Speaker 1: um against the oppressive forces that are perhaps you know,
Speaker 1: more visible, particularly brutal. You still see like coastal liberals
Speaker 1: like making fun of the South every time Republicans like
Speaker 1: are awful. I think ab how like in Georgia, like UM,
Speaker 1: voter suppression bills raised calls to boycott the states outside
Speaker 1: of the the state, even though like nobody in the state
Speaker 1: wanted that. Um. I think about people joking that like
Speaker 1: in Texas, Kentucky, like all these survivors of like weather
Speaker 1: disasters deserve their state's horrible relief responses because quote unquote
Speaker 1: like they voted for their leaders despite the fact that
Speaker 1: like majorities of people don't vote at all. So let's
Speaker 1: you know, not even talk about that. I guess here
Speaker 1: then again, you know, I'm back in our own state
Speaker 1: once and once more thinking about how many progressives, um
Speaker 1: and leftists we had elected to various levels of government. Um.
Speaker 1: When you hear about like successful left electoral projects, you
Speaker 1: think about New York, or you hear about it in Nevada.
Speaker 1: But they ain't gotta love, they ain't gonna love people
Speaker 1: in the in the South fighting for their freedom. So
Speaker 1: I think Germingham is a great example of history that
Speaker 1: goes untold. Okay, So just because you you brought that
Speaker 1: up in terms of like, you know, the like you said,
Speaker 1: the liberal like thing of like, oh, let's boycott the
Speaker 1: state or business businesses should pull out of the state
Speaker 1: because of something they're doing. What's what is like another
Speaker 1: UM effective I guess like political like repercussion or punishment
Speaker 1: that you can do when some of these gerrymander Georgia
Speaker 1: legislatures like do wild shit that's not really in tune
Speaker 1: with the rest of the countrys something you can do
Speaker 1: to affect the officials or to affect the government that
Speaker 1: instilled that. Since you said, like a lot of the
Speaker 1: population doesn't vote and there's people there who have that
Speaker 1: will be affected by like boycotts and stuff, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean send resources to organizations that are organizing in the
Speaker 1: state that are doing voter registration and voter education and
Speaker 1: a voter turnout efforts, etcetera. Because like, yeah, boycott's hurt
Speaker 1: working people. I mean, if the working people call for
Speaker 1: it and they're like down for that, then desk what's up?
Speaker 1: In this case, A lot of folks that UM are
Speaker 1: part of who have been drawn Georgia by like the
Speaker 1: expanding film industry, are folks that vote Democrat, and those
Speaker 1: are folks that are going to be harmed by a
Speaker 1: boycott and I'd be like, well, you guys, I got
Speaker 1: to move back to California because, like you know, the
Speaker 1: movie sets shut down because no one wanted to do
Speaker 1: business here anymore, actually further cementing Republican power in this state.
Speaker 1: But like, yo, if you you know, take that, if
Speaker 1: you know, if you want to do a little boycott, fine,
Speaker 1: um you know, like, oh, I'm not gonna buy Coca
Speaker 1: Cola because they gave fifty grand to like the author
Speaker 1: of the Senate bill making it illegal to hand out
Speaker 1: water in voting lines or whatever. You know, all right,
Speaker 1: take the twenty bucks and give it to like um
Speaker 1: UM Asian American's Advancing Justice or UM put their Latino
Speaker 1: X which they you know, get out the vote for,
Speaker 1: you know, in Hispanic community or something. Because then actually
Speaker 1: you're you're fighting the problem by helping people, the people
Speaker 1: fighting the problem fight the problem. You know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: I feel I feel conflicted about it, because I mean,
Speaker 1: on one hand, I definitely hear what you're saying, and
Speaker 1: I mean I agree with it, But then there's just
Speaker 1: like another part of it where it's like, what can
Speaker 1: you do to these big entities other than hurt their pockets?
Speaker 1: I mean at the end of the day, and it's
Speaker 1: unfortunately the ship has trickled down because of the way
Speaker 1: everything is tied up together. But like when we were
Speaker 1: talking about the NFL a couple of weeks ago, you know,
Speaker 1: that's the only about the easiest way to get that
Speaker 1: to happen would be to boycott the NFL for them
Speaker 1: to lose money because of it, And that would not
Speaker 1: only affect the billionaires, but it would probably affect a
Speaker 1: lot of low level people worse than it would affect
Speaker 1: the billionaires. But that would be something tangible of like
Speaker 1: over losing viewership or losing money. People are buying jerseys anymore. Okay,
Speaker 1: they're upset because of what. All, right, let's change that.
Speaker 1: But when you're doing that against actively against the wishes
Speaker 1: of the people who are doing the work in the state,
Speaker 1: like what, why why would you do that? Like literally,
Speaker 1: I was getting arguments with people not in Georgia about
Speaker 1: the boycott in Georgia and trying to be like no,
Speaker 1: like I lived here, Like I know what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: Like no one is asked for this. I appreciate your intent,
Speaker 1: and people even being condescending in that regard as well.
Speaker 1: Like well, you know, shut out whatever, like just being
Speaker 1: so insistent that they want to do things the way
Speaker 1: they want to do things, even if though they have
Speaker 1: no inside knowledge of what is happening and are just
Speaker 1: so and so self consistent and just like blaantly disrespecting
Speaker 1: like what people are actually asking for that are in
Speaker 1: these impacted communities, um and have been doing this organizing
Speaker 1: for a long time. So that's the thing. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right that hitting them in their pockets is effective.
Speaker 1: But like if that's like if you're just going over
Speaker 1: like over and around what people are actually asking you
Speaker 1: to do, like it's not actually about the issue for you,
Speaker 1: it's about being on some kind of moral high horse
Speaker 1: and like an eco trend. Okay, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to get this is again, this is why you,
Speaker 1: like you said, this episode is an union of discussions.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get two bogged out in any
Speaker 1: one topic. But oh yeah, let's keep it rolling. Definitely,
Speaker 1: I definitely thought of an addition to that. But okay,
Speaker 1: we can we can come back to this if we
Speaker 1: have to save this snippet for something else. But anyway, so,
Speaker 1: um so, yeah, people, people forget about the South, they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, they've been bes Bridge and like the Freedom Writers.
Speaker 1: But like, um, especially with like the CRT bands trying
Speaker 1: to happen, you're certainly not going to hear about some
Speaker 1: of this kind of stuff. I mean, you can't even
Speaker 1: hear about like traditional civil rights history, let alone like, um,
Speaker 1: some of the stuff I'm goot to tell you about
Speaker 1: today obscure esoteric, like yeah, yeah, okay. So, um So,
Speaker 1: this book that I referenced Robin D. G. Kelly is
Speaker 1: Hammer and How is a history of the Alabama Communist
Speaker 1: movement during the Great Depression. And let me just sell
Speaker 1: you it is a completely and totally wild read. Um, Like,
Speaker 1: I just it's really it's going to be very hard
Speaker 1: for me to capture because my mind was just excuse
Speaker 1: me what? Um So? In it, Kelly describes the way
Speaker 1: that black workers um brought existing traditions of resistance to
Speaker 1: racial depression into development of a unique version of Marxism,
Speaker 1: and how the Communist Party came to attract a substantial
Speaker 1: number of um, African American workers in Alabama, so like
Speaker 1: fight for like, you know, struggles that we typically think
Speaker 1: of in a Great Depression. Eary of you know, getting
Speaker 1: welfare and you know, just the means to survive when
Speaker 1: that somebody could put out of work obviously, the right
Speaker 1: to vote, just fighting racial terrorism by the clan and
Speaker 1: the police, etcetera. Um, And so we think of it,
Speaker 1: it's just like oh that type of silver right struggle.
Speaker 1: But like in Birmingham during the Great Depression, like the
Speaker 1: folks that were like about that life are real for real.
Speaker 1: We're like straight up like communists apparently like straight like
Speaker 1: not like the we're just going to call you communists
Speaker 1: because no exactly. And speaking of that, I want to
Speaker 1: go ahead and give this caveat, I mean regouts caveat
Speaker 1: as much as it's just like something I've been thinking
Speaker 1: about lately because I've been waiting for the day that
Speaker 1: someone tries to ask me if I'm a communist because
Speaker 1: that's like the scary like and I've been thinking about
Speaker 1: it because I'm not. But I'm like, Okay, the answer
Speaker 1: I think it's legitimately is that I'm not because I
Speaker 1: don't even think I know what communism really is, and
Speaker 1: neither does anyone. Most most anyone that would ask either
Speaker 1: of us that question, like doesn't know what it is either. Um, essentially,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I said no, no, no no, I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: just I was going to add to that as is
Speaker 1: I feel the same way. It's like, I'm not but
Speaker 1: I don't go ahead. I'll finish with my thought after you, okay.
Speaker 1: I will say that I am vaguely familiar with it
Speaker 1: as an idea I guess as like moneyless, classless, stateless society.
Speaker 1: But I literally don't even know what that means either,
Speaker 1: Like it's just really hard to imagine. So I would
Speaker 1: essentially say that I I'm kind of too down to
Speaker 1: be a communist. There's a lot of big books you
Speaker 1: got to read and stuff. I hear. It seems I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's some kind of that's from like a
Speaker 1: theory sort of more scholarly standpoint, I guess, because there's
Speaker 1: got to be like a more what's the word, There
Speaker 1: has to be a more like proletariat understanding because into
Speaker 1: it's not like, hey, I have to read some fucking
Speaker 1: gigantic book of theory by seven different Russian dudes. That's
Speaker 1: a good point because these cats down here in the
Speaker 1: Great Depression era, like they couldn't read a lot of
Speaker 1: them exactly. So now I'm like wait a second, how
Speaker 1: do they How did they get so into this stuff?
Speaker 1: Like I don't know. I got to read the book
Speaker 1: for some reason. It's weird because like you're a politician,
Speaker 1: but like I get in conversations all the time where
Speaker 1: people ask me like, are you a socialist or are
Speaker 1: you a communist? And I kind of give the same
Speaker 1: answer that you did, where it's like I don't know
Speaker 1: enough about the ship to claim that I'm in anybody's group,
Speaker 1: but I know that the the people that I don't like,
Speaker 1: I look at communism and socialism in terms of like
Speaker 1: labels the same way that I do as woke. I
Speaker 1: don't personally identify as that ship, but like all the
Speaker 1: people that I hate seem to not like it, so
Speaker 1: I And that actually that makes you think about how
Speaker 1: people like identify as like a proud capitalist or whatever
Speaker 1: when they work at like radio shack or whatever. It's like,
Speaker 1: you don't know, we don't know what capitalism is, do you?
Speaker 1: They got no capital, You ain't gotten zero means of production,
Speaker 1: my friend. Um, so at least I know that, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm not that, not even because I don't want to be.
Speaker 1: I just don't have like properties. I'm renting out or
Speaker 1: like a factory that people work in, Like I'm literally
Speaker 1: not a capitalist in the definition of the term. But
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't know what any of these
Speaker 1: terms means, and I guess neither did um like the
Speaker 1: black laborers and sharecroppers down in Birmingham until like, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess, like the International like Communist Party, like, yo,
Speaker 1: it's real rough for black folks down there. We need
Speaker 1: to send folks down there to help them out because
Speaker 1: it's real bleak and we're trying to get everybody free.
Speaker 1: And so a couple of white communists showed up in Birmingham,
Speaker 1: and it was a part of like I guess, in
Speaker 1: the imagination of like folks that had experienced like the
Speaker 1: Civil War, you know, experienced reconstruction, etcetera. There was this
Speaker 1: lingering sense that like the Yankees were coming back, like Okay,
Speaker 1: the reconstruction failed, but the Yankees are coming back to
Speaker 1: like save us and like holding out to that hope.
Speaker 1: So when these like white communists showed up, they're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: the Yankees are here, so like like help us fighter
Speaker 1: for And they didn't give it. They didn't care at all,
Speaker 1: like what their political ideology was they were just like Yo,
Speaker 1: these people seem ready to throw down. Let's go and
Speaker 1: kind of like launch this crazy like this huge movement.
Speaker 1: I think I read up there was like twelve thousand
Speaker 1: people involved in like these like this coalition of organizations
Speaker 1: that came about. The Communist Party organized organizing at the time. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, who were all the organizations? Um? So there
Speaker 1: was like the Sharecroppers Union, Um. The Companist Party itself
Speaker 1: had about five people. Chere, copperst Union had up to
Speaker 1: twelve thousand. Um. I think the number of trade unions
Speaker 1: that got involved in this work of various sizes. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, altogether they were they was like there was
Speaker 1: rolling deep. It was rolling deep. Another thing I wanted
Speaker 1: to say on this is like I think that this
Speaker 1: that fact of like the people they were like rolled
Speaker 1: with the folks who showed to help them, no questions asked,
Speaker 1: is like very is very true of politics. Still, um,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like consternation among like white progressives
Speaker 1: and athens about why, um, older black folks are so conservative. Sometimes, UM,
Speaker 1: I say, sometimes I don't want to pay black voters
Speaker 1: into like any kind of box because we're very ideologically diverse.
Speaker 1: But we've had this discussion. Yeah, like black is not
Speaker 1: the political state, Like, yeah, it's on the political party,
Speaker 1: and thank god it's not. It would be worse than
Speaker 1: the Democrats because it's like the big tent includes everyone
Speaker 1: from your mansion too, you know, very standards or whatever. Right,
Speaker 1: but then you can't get anything done. But um, it's
Speaker 1: like the well, y'all the well. One of the reasons
Speaker 1: of many why like black folks of a like of
Speaker 1: a politically powerful classes. It's like they're consider they're very
Speaker 1: consistent voting block, they turn out their re election, they
Speaker 1: sit on committees, and you know, have all these political connections.
Speaker 1: It's because like the folks that have always shown up
Speaker 1: around here are the Republicans, and not even out of
Speaker 1: a sense of like building deep community relationships or even
Speaker 1: caring about people's problems. They've just always been around and
Speaker 1: they've always had the power. And if you want power,
Speaker 1: those are the people you have to work with. Until
Speaker 1: a lot of these folks have been working with Republicans
Speaker 1: for like twenty years because they're the only that's the
Speaker 1: only shot you have getting anything for the community because
Speaker 1: they have all the power. And so those are the
Speaker 1: folks they wrote with. Theyre like, O, well, you know,
Speaker 1: good old you know buddy, and mcclan stir um has
Speaker 1: all he's been in office for twenty years. I know
Speaker 1: that guy. He's always been around and so like that's
Speaker 1: my homies for no other reason than they're just the
Speaker 1: people around. I mean, obviously you're right. I just I
Speaker 1: just always think we've got to like caution though, you know,
Speaker 1: I never like, I always try not to look at
Speaker 1: things in like a class reductionists sort of way, because
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, it's like, even if
Speaker 1: somebody you know politically is someone you can work with,
Speaker 1: I mean, they still require some vetting because they're like
Speaker 1: if they don't think like black and brown people are human,
Speaker 1: then then the whatever policies that they're talking about don't
Speaker 1: include us. That is the thing that ends up blowing
Speaker 1: my mind. Though. It's like, so y'all telling me, because
Speaker 1: for example, there's dude's reverend in Athens almost ran for
Speaker 1: a commission and he gave like two thousand dollars to
Speaker 1: Brian Camp at one point, an old black reverend guy.
Speaker 1: It's like, you may to tell me, y'all roll with
Speaker 1: the casts. I want to literally ban like the stuff
Speaker 1: like this history of the stuff you did in the sixties,
Speaker 1: marching and stuff. They wouldn't have band us from talking
Speaker 1: about that in school. So this is the people we
Speaker 1: all roll them went for real. I can't. Yeah, I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't do it. I can't do it.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I mean, perhaps I understand the necessity
Speaker 1: of it, but there is I do and even if
Speaker 1: i'm if I'm being principled about that, it's just like
Speaker 1: I can't help somebody achieve their goal as if they're
Speaker 1: including me and their goal when they're not. Does that
Speaker 1: make sense? Yeah? I mean in this case, talking going
Speaker 1: back to depressionary Alabama, I mean these you know, these folks,
Speaker 1: whether you were going, you know, agree with their vision
Speaker 1: for what the ultimate goal is for their organizing, you know,
Speaker 1: a quote unquote money less, class less, stateless society whatever
Speaker 1: that is. Um, they did want to give black people free.
Speaker 1: They was like real, real, real, real, real real about it. Um.
Speaker 1: But I mean one aspect I guess of like recalling
Speaker 1: my memory of this book, I don't know to what
Speaker 1: degree there was resistance to like you know, oh y'all,
Speaker 1: y'all communists like what is you know, perhaps it was
Speaker 1: that like um McCarthy ism and stuff and like red
Speaker 1: scared so be it s it wasn't really a thing yet.
Speaker 1: Um So people weren't as you know, as like I
Speaker 1: should be concerned about this. Um as well. I will
Speaker 1: say that one of the things that's great about Kelly's
Speaker 1: book is that he doesn't try to say that like
Speaker 1: communism is good, Like that's for you know, the reader
Speaker 1: to think about on their own. It's just like, yo,
Speaker 1: this is what happened, Like they went down here and
Speaker 1: this is what happened, and like do with this knowledge
Speaker 1: what you will. Um So, it's pretty like neutral and
Speaker 1: objective if you want to just like learn about a
Speaker 1: piece of history that you wouldn't anywhere else because they're
Speaker 1: definitely not gonna teach you about this in school, not anymore.
Speaker 1: Um so. Man. So you know these white communists they
Speaker 1: rolled up in Alabama. They were always devoutly religious and
Speaker 1: like only it's kind of able to read and write,
Speaker 1: like black labors and share croppers, a couple of handful
Speaker 1: of like working class white folks, um and unemployed industrial workers,
Speaker 1: you know, housewives, young folks, some renegade liberals and Um,
Speaker 1: they just like we're ready to throw down. And what's
Speaker 1: really interesting to me, it's like the role of religion
Speaker 1: and all this. So these folks, like all these folks
Speaker 1: were like the val Christians, right, I believe in Jesus
Speaker 1: and redemption. Um. And then when when they started to
Speaker 1: roll the idea of salvation into like their organizing on
Speaker 1: the ground, they kim to start to kind of believe
Speaker 1: that like Russia would come and save them the way
Speaker 1: that like Jesus would if anything got to be real bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's right, what now? And then get this, So they
Speaker 1: blended the teachings of Marx and Lenin in with like
Speaker 1: their popular spirituals um into their sermons. And so for example,
Speaker 1: they turned a line and give me that old time
Speaker 1: religion at the end of the song into if it
Speaker 1: was good enough for Lenin, it's good enough for me.
Speaker 1: And that's what they were like singing in the churches.
Speaker 1: I see. Yeah. And so yeah, it's like merging together
Speaker 1: like this this ongoing struggle and resistant struggle, and like
Speaker 1: it's rootedness and Christianity and the church just rolling in
Speaker 1: the stuff that these cats brought with them down from
Speaker 1: New York or wherever and like leaving it like really
Speaker 1: tightly into like the existing fabric of their culture. I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure Karl Marx was like really racist. I you
Speaker 1: know what, I don't know. I think you're right, though,
Speaker 1: I have a feeling I mean not you know, not
Speaker 1: even like particulars. I just think he was like, you know,
Speaker 1: like obviously of the time. So that's just he was
Speaker 1: of the time. Yeah yeah, yeah, but I mean again,
Speaker 1: just going to what we were saying, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like there the it's just not every obviously, not everything
Speaker 1: can be broken down into that class divide because like
Speaker 1: you know, I just don't think that un anywhere of
Speaker 1: you know, lending or marks list of priorities that they
Speaker 1: were thinking. Liberation of people in America. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's interesting again read the book. I was drawing
Speaker 1: a little bit from memory on this. There were some
Speaker 1: flashes and struggles between the white and blackbird in the
Speaker 1: classes and struggles to bring the white folks and etcetera.
Speaker 1: But ultimately it did end up being like a multi
Speaker 1: racial movement because while um, well the black folks, I
Speaker 1: mean they would get strong, strong up, you know, intreatues
Speaker 1: and stuff, white folks couldn't get any sort of like
Speaker 1: um relief from the Great Depression, hunger and stuff, and
Speaker 1: so was like, oh, yeah, we're actually have in the
Speaker 1: same problems out here. You mean to tell me if
Speaker 1: we like unite, like we can all get some like
Speaker 1: that sound of that kind of spirit. It's also something
Speaker 1: who don't want you to know about. But what they
Speaker 1: really don't want you to know about is that these
Speaker 1: folks believed in armed self defense and don't mean believed
Speaker 1: in it, like they were like militant, like militant militant
Speaker 1: engaging in what one history called suicidal confrontations with the police,
Speaker 1: union busters the clan. They were like not at all
Speaker 1: afraid to meet God, Like a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of folks like got killed in gun battles in addition
Speaker 1: to like, oh just typical like racist terrorism in the South,
Speaker 1: like literally there's rolled up like prepared to die like
Speaker 1: in violent war with the police and stuff. Here's a question,
Speaker 1: do you think do you think that the religious aspect
Speaker 1: of it that they incorporated into it at all might
Speaker 1: have helped people get in that sort of like mindset
Speaker 1: of like being prepared to Yeah, I mean I'm agagined,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I also recently had been watching the new
Speaker 1: John Brown TV show, The Good Lord's part that I
Speaker 1: would recommend it even Hawk is like pretty bananas in it.
Speaker 1: But um, thing like I didn't really understand like the
Speaker 1: geosity that kind of underpinned John Brown's like pursuit to
Speaker 1: end slavery by any means. Like he was like, you know, slavery,
Speaker 1: it's a sin. It's a great like one of the
Speaker 1: great sins. Like you know, God has sent me to
Speaker 1: like dispatch any slavery and like by any means, like
Speaker 1: get people free, like in the name of the Lord, right,
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, did you see the there was a
Speaker 1: prager you video that they did about who was it?
Speaker 1: Was it George Washington? No, it wasn't George. The prigger
Speaker 1: You did a video on somebody and they were like
Speaker 1: trying to be like, hey, why this person's statue shouldn't
Speaker 1: be pulled down or something like that, And they were
Speaker 1: giving a list of the different things that they did
Speaker 1: that they were trying to say, hey, this Confederate person
Speaker 1: did this, and one of the things was they helped
Speaker 1: to bring down the John Brown revault. It's like wait
Speaker 1: a minute, Yeah, first of all, don't you realize all
Speaker 1: slavery ended in America through violence. There was a giant war,
Speaker 1: if you may recall, and that's what he was trying
Speaker 1: to do, was trying to start a like a ward
Speaker 1: in slavery. So maybe we've been sold any other way,
Speaker 1: check your check your math there. Probably you I don't
Speaker 1: know you. I don't know you trying to stay here, sir,
Speaker 1: But yeah, I wonder, I mean, like, um, I wonder too,
Speaker 1: the degree to which, like, yo, we're going to heaven
Speaker 1: fighting you know, valiantly for like the Lord's will by
Speaker 1: like getting out here and getting these gun violes with
Speaker 1: the police. How much that inspired their work? And that
Speaker 1: then makes me think of like one of the things
Speaker 1: that like drove my um like fairly recent disillusionment with
Speaker 1: like Christianity was like seeing how folks often are like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just a part of God's plan and
Speaker 1: there's not nothing anything to do about it. We'll just
Speaker 1: like wait around to go to heaven and they'll be
Speaker 1: a real lit then, and it's like, bro, like we
Speaker 1: can like things don't have to be the way that
Speaker 1: they are now. And I wonder if that ship because
Speaker 1: like you didn't I don't think you saw that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff in like the Civil rights moment. You had
Speaker 1: the preachers and the pastors and folks out there with
Speaker 1: in the marches. Um. And you don't only see that
Speaker 1: too much these days. You've got people like you know,
Speaker 1: Reverend um Barber, you know, with a poor People's campaign,
Speaker 1: but not you don't only have a huge um national
Speaker 1: figures that are of the church that are like, yo,
Speaker 1: let's throw down and like in the name of Jesus,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Um, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: want to do a whole episode on that, because I
Speaker 1: think the phenomenon is a bit super interesting. Um. I
Speaker 1: mean because like if that if you know that, definitely
Speaker 1: that definitely does seem to be like kind of the
Speaker 1: attitude that ship is, like ship morphed into kind of
Speaker 1: like you know, like pray thoughts and prayers, thoughts and prayer. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to paint this with the two
Speaker 1: broader brush because we're all in a time where it
Speaker 1: like movements are very decentralized. We don't have a Martin
Speaker 1: Luther King Jr. In general. Um. And so that's not
Speaker 1: to like say this is typical of all churches everywhere,
Speaker 1: just because there isn't like a national leader that captivates
Speaker 1: our imagination the way that like Imalkay did in his time.
Speaker 1: But I mean that's just what I've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of times, and so it's so so cable the opposite
Speaker 1: in the way they went. These folks went into it.
Speaker 1: They were like, yo, if today is the day I
Speaker 1: meet the Lord, I'm about it, Like we're coming for
Speaker 1: these you know, these landlords that evicted so and so
Speaker 1: and just going out guns blazon. It's so strange. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I should totally come back and do a whole whole
Speaker 1: episode on that, yeah, because I mean I don't even know.
Speaker 1: I don't know we're gonna get to it here, but
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the soul civil rights aspect of
Speaker 1: Birmingham as well, you could have it. We could have
Speaker 1: a whole episode on that ship. Yeah, oh no, that's
Speaker 1: so so much Sean cover. And then we'll get to
Speaker 1: sort of like at least want to get to today
Speaker 1: kind of talking about like how all this lay the
Speaker 1: groundwork for the civil rights movement in ways they will
Speaker 1: never tell you about, um, but like so they're out
Speaker 1: here like with rifles and stuff, just like gun battling
Speaker 1: the racists. Do you have any examples of like, like
Speaker 1: a confrontation at all? I wish I did. I don't
Speaker 1: have one off the top of my head, unfortunately. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that's another thing. We get some stories on that.
Speaker 1: I wonder if we if we mentioned some of those standoffs.
Speaker 1: Oh man, yeah, Um damn, I wish I would have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: gone back and we read the book, because because that's
Speaker 1: the thing that blew my mind. It's like the descriptions
Speaker 1: of the throwdowns in the book. I'm just like, they did,
Speaker 1: excuse me, they did what? And then get this that
Speaker 1: they were doing all this. We're like, um, fairly reasonable things,
Speaker 1: better well welfare policies for the hunger stricken, destitute, you
Speaker 1: know bottom, you know, bottom of the bottom of the
Speaker 1: bottom folks, and the depression era, better treatment for workers,
Speaker 1: basic civil rights. They're fighting for the right to vote,
Speaker 1: right to sit on jury's, you know, right to not
Speaker 1: get jim crowed. Effectively, depression. This is a a depression erea.
Speaker 1: So they were out here just a meeting people's basic
Speaker 1: needs for food, water, and shelter. If someone's water got
Speaker 1: turned off, comedies probably would figure out a way to
Speaker 1: turn the water back on. If electricity got turned off,
Speaker 1: they able to come and use jemper cables to run electricity.
Speaker 1: And if someone got evicted from their home, they would
Speaker 1: roll up to the landlord and be like, look, you
Speaker 1: have a choice. You need to put that family back
Speaker 1: in their house or yours might not be there tomorrow,
Speaker 1: and like just yeah, just to give people a sense
Speaker 1: of like the timeline and ship like that, like any
Speaker 1: sort of like real civil rights discussion was at least
Speaker 1: like twenty years away from this point were doing that. UM.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean they just wanted we want some
Speaker 1: kind of work or want somewhere other support for the government. Um.
Speaker 1: But then another like animating issue for them was the
Speaker 1: Scottsboro case. Nine young black men were also arrested for
Speaker 1: raping t white women and they end up going to jail.
Speaker 1: And so this is a tie into the soil of
Speaker 1: Rights movement because apparently Rosa Parks attended some of their
Speaker 1: leadings around the Scottsboro case UM, and as well some
Speaker 1: of these um we'll come back to the second UM.
Speaker 1: But this was like a central place where they had
Speaker 1: a lot of tension with the Double A CP down
Speaker 1: there at the time. So I don't even mentioned earlier
Speaker 1: that UM like when a CP rolled up in Birmingham,
Speaker 1: the Double a CP. So when UM the Commonist Party
Speaker 1: are arrived in Birmingham, the Double A CP of Birmingham
Speaker 1: and all over the surrounding county had six Jews paying
Speaker 1: members like they were like gasping for air, like not
Speaker 1: even UM. So there's just there's so much sh unpack here. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to come back to it. Well, I
Speaker 1: guess fortunately I'm gonna come back to it in an
Speaker 1: upcoming episode. We have a lot of great guests coming
Speaker 1: up in the next couple of weeks, too, very excited
Speaker 1: for what's the store for waiting on reparations, including this
Speaker 1: new single then Matt has put out this week called
Speaker 1: should Not Be Multiplied. Let's spend a little bit of
Speaker 1: that to take us out this week. I don't yo,
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Speaker 1: You ain't gotta take my word. Hurt the ship with
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Speaker 1: just can't appeal. All I got is trying to get
Speaker 1: a stash. All I got his emptys in my way
Speaker 1: in the prophets of my past. Also I got some
Speaker 1: pocket full of cash. I don't even think that none
Speaker 1: of this is skint of matter, sins who I just
Speaker 1: want to wrap. I just want to wrap it. Just
Speaker 1: easy to knock us all off the map. Nigger. I
Speaker 1: just want to rap and maybe get a pocket for
Speaker 1: the cash. But I don't even think it shouldn't matter.
Speaker 1: When I'm rapping in the kids, fool, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: let the world know I even got the grip to
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Speaker 1: too while I'm simping. But low, get upuff my dick food.
Speaker 1: You probably call your girl bro knife. I wonder I'm
Speaker 1: rob when I'm in slumber. My mama woo my ass
Speaker 1: and my music. I hot it from her. I bury
Speaker 1: these wrappers, not in the casting, but lying under the cat,
Speaker 1: spraying out more loads and the Bryan Pappa. It's that
Speaker 1: MPC food. It's made for a boom box. These motherfucker's
Speaker 1: spinning like the wrappers and boom docks. The wrist taker
Speaker 1: reaching your mouth like grip Baker, rip your fucking jar
Speaker 1: out if it means I'm gonna get paper, yo, all
Speaker 1: I got is trying to get a stash. All I
Speaker 1: got his emptys in my way in the prophets of
Speaker 1: my cast. Also, I got some pocket full of cash.
Speaker 1: I don't even think that none of this kind of matter. See,
Speaker 1: I just want to wrap. I just want to wrap it.
Speaker 1: Just some me disease and knock as all the map nigger.
Speaker 1: I just want to wrap and maybe get a pocket
Speaker 1: for the cash. But I don't even think you shouldn't matter,
Speaker 1: you just want to wrap. Listen to Waiting on Reparations
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.