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Speaker 1: Hey Katie, have you ever been to Las Vegas? I

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Speaker 1: have once, and so what did you think about America's

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Speaker 1: favorite adult playground?

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Speaker 4: Well, I can't really tell you.

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Speaker 1: Is that because it was so much fun you remember nothing?

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Speaker 4: I mean, it is a bit of an information black hole.

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Speaker 1: You mean like you don't want to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Like what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

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Speaker 4: It is a singular experience for sure.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll leave that past the Katie event arride.

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Speaker 4: Like they're just handing out margarite?

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Speaker 5: Is there? What am I supposed to say?

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Speaker 6: Hi?

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at

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Speaker 1: UC Irvin, and I have definitely been to Vegas.

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Speaker 4: I am Katie Golden, I am made out of particles.

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Speaker 4: I host a podcast about animals, and I mostly liked

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Speaker 4: the food from Las Vegas, not so much the casinos.

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Speaker 1: I recently went to Vegas with my thirteen year old daughter,

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Speaker 1: which was quite an experience to see it through her eyes.

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Speaker 1: Definitely a place to go at least once.

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Speaker 4: It is a fascinating city. I regret that I have

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Speaker 4: not been there since they have put the giant orban.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the orb is cool. There's definitely a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff you can do even if you're not eighteen or

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Speaker 1: twenty one plus, though some of the stuff she wanted

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Speaker 1: to do, like drive tanks through the desert and shoot

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Speaker 1: automatic weapons were definitely age restricted.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I have a friend who I think shot guns

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Speaker 4: from a helicopter in Vegas. There's a lot of things

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Speaker 4: things you can do.

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Speaker 1: There's all sorts of crazy stuff you can do in Vegas,

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Speaker 1: stuff that helps you understand who you are and who

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Speaker 1: you aren't. And Welcome to the podcast Daniel and Jorge

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Speaker 1: Explain the Universe, in which we try to explain to

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Speaker 1: you what the universe is and what the universe isn't.

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Speaker 1: We try to pull back the curtain and help you

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Speaker 1: understand what's going on out there in the deepest, darkest

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Speaker 1: regions of.

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Speaker 4: Space, such as Las Vegas.

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Speaker 1: There is no Vegas casino yet called the black Hole,

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Speaker 1: but I am assuming one it will eventually open up.

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Speaker 4: That is a missed opportunity, or like a mini golf

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Speaker 4: course called the black.

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Speaker 1: Holes that just sucks in all the balls.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: On this podcast, we do try to explain to you

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Speaker 1: black holes and also how everything works on the smallest scales,

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Speaker 1: because we don't just want to describe the universe to you,

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Speaker 1: we want to explain it. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: an understanding, a microscopic picture of how everything around you

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Speaker 1: actually works. We want to dive deep into the nature

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Speaker 1: of reality come out with a bottom up understanding of

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Speaker 1: how the universe actually works. My friend Jorge can't be

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Speaker 1: here today, but I'm very glad to be joined by

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Speaker 1: one of our regular co hosts. Thanks Katie for joining

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Speaker 1: us on this black Hole of an episode.

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Speaker 4: I am excited because no matter how many times you

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Speaker 4: explain to me what a black hole is, I still

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Speaker 4: feel like I cannot wrap my head around it.

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Speaker 5: So surely, surely.

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Speaker 4: This will be the episode where I understand black holes.

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Speaker 1: Well, I would say there's probably nobody out there who

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Speaker 1: fully deeply understands black holes, because to fully deeply understand something,

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Speaker 1: I think we need a particle level explanation for it.

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Speaker 1: You know, we need to be able to moot up

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Speaker 1: from the tiniest little bits and say, here's what's really

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Speaker 1: happening at the smallest scales when you get sucked into

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Speaker 1: a black hole or when photons try to escape. And

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Speaker 1: the reason I say that nobody understands them is that

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Speaker 1: we do not have a particle level understanding of black

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Speaker 1: holes the way, for example, we can understand and what

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Speaker 1: happens when photons go through glass. They interact with the atoms,

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Speaker 1: the electrons and all that stuff in there, and it

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Speaker 1: bends their path and we have some way to tell

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Speaker 1: a story microscopically if what's happening to those photons and

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Speaker 1: related to what we see actually macroscopically. We can't do

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Speaker 1: that for black holes because we don't understand particles and gravity.

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Speaker 1: We have no theory of quantum gravity that tells us

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Speaker 1: what happens to particles when they feel gravity, and that's

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Speaker 1: what black holes are all about. Gravity. So we don't

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Speaker 1: have this sort of deep down, microscopic understanding of black holes.

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Speaker 1: So probably nobody understands, but that doesn't stop us from

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Speaker 1: asking questions and from trying to grapple with what we

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Speaker 1: have learned about black holes. And on this podcast we

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Speaker 1: encourage everybody to think deeply about the universe and to

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Speaker 1: try to fit these ideas into their heads, to ask

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Speaker 1: themselves questions to see does this make sense to you?

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Speaker 1: Is it possible for you to grapple with what we

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Speaker 1: do and do not know about black holes?

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Speaker 4: The problem, Daniel is I have a finite number of neurons,

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Speaker 4: a finite sort of number of synaptic pathways in my brain,

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Speaker 4: and it is very difficult for those little guys to

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Speaker 4: understand all we know about black holes and what we

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Speaker 4: don't know about black holes. If we were somehow able

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Speaker 4: to measure everything about a black hole, do you think

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Speaker 4: we could even fully understand it? As humans?

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Speaker 1: It's a deep question in philosophy, like are we even

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Speaker 1: capable of describing the universe in our minds? Can we

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Speaker 1: understand the universe? And not a question I know the

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Speaker 1: answer to or I think anybody knows the answer to. Amazingly,

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Speaker 1: so far we have been able to do it, to

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Speaker 1: write these little mathematical models, tell ourselves these little stories

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Speaker 1: in our minds, and use them to explain everything that

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Speaker 1: we see and everything we experience, everything our experiments tell us.

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Speaker 1: Is it possible for us to understand them? The smartest

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Speaker 1: human I don't know. I think there probably is a

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Speaker 1: limit to how smart the smartest human is, and so

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Speaker 1: it might be that the universe is just more complex

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Speaker 1: than that, and that no human, regardless of how smart

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Speaker 1: they are, could ever understand it. But you know, we've

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Speaker 1: been making a lot of progress in recent years asking

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Speaker 1: and answering questions about the deepest nature of the universe

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Speaker 1: and about black holes. So I'm kind of bullish on

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Speaker 1: the possibility for some human someday to understand it and

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Speaker 1: that's not just limited to like the Albert Einsteins of

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Speaker 1: the world. I think it's possible for basically everybody out

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Speaker 1: there to get some kind of intuitive grasp or how

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Speaker 1: black holes work. One thing I love about hearing from

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Speaker 1: listeners to the podcast is that it's been teaching them

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Speaker 1: to think like a physicist, you know, like, what does

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Speaker 1: that mean? To think like a physicist? It means to

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Speaker 1: try to understand the world around you, to tell yourself stories,

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Speaker 1: to ask yourself questions, to say, do I understand how

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Speaker 1: this works? To put these models in your head and

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Speaker 1: like turn them around and say, well, if that's true,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it mean this? Or how does this connect with

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Speaker 1: this other thing I do understand? And that's especially important

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Speaker 1: for weird things like black holes. So we get lots

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Speaker 1: of questions from listeners who're doing just that. We're trying

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Speaker 1: to think like a physicist about black holes, to try

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Speaker 1: to incorporate it into the mathematical stories in their minds.

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Speaker 4: This podcast is Daniel's secret weapon of trying to convert

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Speaker 4: everyone into physicists. We are onto you, Daniel. You are

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Speaker 4: trying to create an army of physicists. There are so

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Speaker 4: many questions that I have about black holes. It's hard

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Speaker 4: for me to even think about how to phrase my

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Speaker 4: confusion about black holes into a question. So just being

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Speaker 4: able to ask a distinct, coherent question about black holes,

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Speaker 4: I think is impressive.

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Speaker 1: I mean, your question about black holes is like black holes,

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Speaker 1: what's the deal with that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? My question is like, huh what?

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Speaker 1: That's the first step, right, is to be confused, and

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Speaker 1: then the second step is to try to weave together

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Speaker 1: a few bits of information and say, like, what parts

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Speaker 1: specifically of the story don't make sense to me? Which

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Speaker 1: parts do I need to understand better in order to

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Speaker 1: have something in my mind that does work where the

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Speaker 1: understanding does click. Because what I'd love is for people

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Speaker 1: to have that moment where they're like, oh, I get it.

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Speaker 1: This connects with that thing, and now it kind of

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Speaker 1: makes sense to me, even though it's pretty weird. And

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Speaker 1: a lot of people out there are trying to do that,

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Speaker 1: and many of them have run into the same stumbling block.

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Speaker 1: And so today on the podcast, I want to answer

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Speaker 1: a very common question that we get about black holes.

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Speaker 1: Can gravity escape a black hole?

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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm going crossside just trying to think

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Speaker 4: about this question.

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Speaker 1: I love this question because it reveals that people are

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Speaker 1: being physicists. They're thinking about what a black hole is,

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Speaker 1: how everything gets sucked into it, how nothing can escape.

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Speaker 1: But they're also thinking, hold on a second, we feel

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Speaker 1: gravity from a black hole. How's that possible? How can

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Speaker 1: the gravity get out out of the black hole? And

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Speaker 1: right there, that's being a physicist, that's saying I was

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Speaker 1: told this, But there's also that how do I make

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Speaker 1: this and that work together? How do I put it

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Speaker 1: together in my head to tell a story that makes sense.

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Speaker 4: So what you're asking us to do is to listen

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Speaker 4: to what you're saying and then go, hold on, Daniel,

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Speaker 4: you just said this. Are you lying to us?

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Speaker 1: Everybody's doing their best, nobody's lying to anybody. But in

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Speaker 1: the end, learning is a very personal experience, and an

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Speaker 1: explanation that makes sense to one person doesn't work for

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Speaker 1: somebody else. So that's why in this podcast we often

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Speaker 1: try two or three different analogies or explanations or ways

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Speaker 1: to communicate an idea. And that's what you're here for, Katie,

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Speaker 1: also to make sure that what I'm saying makes sense

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 4: My method of learning is definitely food based metaphors, I'm

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Speaker 4: very food motivated.

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Speaker 1: Is your appetite something like a black hole?

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Speaker 4: It's something like that. Yeah, one could say I'm a

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Speaker 4: bit of a black hole, but yeah. I mean it's

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Speaker 4: a very interesting question because it's hard for me to

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Speaker 4: think of gravity as like a thing, right, like a

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Speaker 4: thing that can escape something. Gravity to me is like, well,

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Speaker 4: I don't even know exactly what gravity is. I remember

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Speaker 4: from previous podcasts the things that you've taught me about gravity,

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Speaker 4: but it is so hard for me to conceptualize gravity

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Speaker 4: because it feels like it is like a kind of

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Speaker 4: thing woven into like the universe, that is not necessarily like,

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Speaker 4: you know, a physical matter thing, but it has everything

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Speaker 4: to do with physics, so it's it's a very confusing

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Speaker 4: kind of concept. And then you add to that the

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Speaker 4: black hole, which itself is quite confusing, and so this

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Speaker 4: question feels no pun intended, but very heavy.

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Speaker 1: Exactly well, you put your finger on really the concepts

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Speaker 1: here that are entertangled. You know, what do we know

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Speaker 1: about gravity? How is gravitational information communicated?

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Speaker 7: Like?

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Speaker 1: How is it that you are feeling gravity from the

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Speaker 1: sun even though the Sun is super dup far away

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Speaker 1: and not touching you. Does that count as information you're

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Speaker 1: getting from the sun. What kind of stuff is captured

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Speaker 1: by a black hole and what isn't captured by a

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Speaker 1: black hole? Is that information? How does that all work?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 1: Do you need to pass little particles back and forth

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Speaker 1: in order to feel gravity or what. So one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons I love this question is that it combines

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Speaker 1: all of these fun, interesting, fascinating and difficult questions together

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Speaker 1: and going through it I think is really helpful to

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Speaker 1: clarify for people what a black hole is and what

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Speaker 1: a black hole isn't and how physicists think about it.

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Speaker 1: But before we hear about how physicists think about it,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to hear what everybody else out there was

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Speaker 1: thinking about it. So we have a nice little team

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Speaker 1: of volunteers who answer your questions for the podcast before

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Speaker 1: we dig into them. Helps me understand what people are

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Speaker 1: thinking and helps you calibrate your thoughts against the other listeners.

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Speaker 1: So thanks very much to everybody who participates. If you

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Speaker 1: want to jump in for a future episode, we would love,

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Speaker 1: love love to have your voice on the team. Right

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Speaker 1: to me two questions at Daniel Aandjorge dot com. So

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Speaker 1: think about it for a moment before you hear these answers.

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Speaker 1: Do you think gravity can escape a black hole? Here's

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Speaker 1: what people had to say.

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Speaker 6: I feel like, since it kind of depends on the

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Speaker 6: mass of an object, it just moves with that object,

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Speaker 6: so it would be dependent on the object being able

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Speaker 6: to escape the black hole.

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Speaker 8: Well, it really matters what we think of as gravity.

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Speaker 8: If we think it's graviton gravitons, like with the quantum theories,

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Speaker 8: then I guess it escapes. I think, yeah, gravity can

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Speaker 8: escape black holes, otherwise I wouldn't be stucking.

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Speaker 9: Everything in gravity is a distortion in space time. So

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Speaker 9: I would say that gravity itself cannot escape. Actually it's

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Speaker 9: being created by the black hole itself. But if we

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Speaker 9: are talking about gravitational waves, I believe it can't escape

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Speaker 9: a black hole if it is outside the event horizon.

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Speaker 9: I even think that gravitational waves were discovered by watching

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Speaker 9: collisions of black holes and stuff like that. So my

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Speaker 9: guess is, yes, under the right circumstances, gravitational waves should

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Speaker 9: be able to escape a black hole.

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Speaker 10: I can't even wrap my head around the question.

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Speaker 6: I didn't even know those words could go together.

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Speaker 10: I guess it can escape because isn't that kind of

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Speaker 10: what gravitational waves are.

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Speaker 4: I love all of the references to gravitational waves because

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Speaker 4: we did an episode on that recently.

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Speaker 1: We did absolutely an episode on gravitational waves, and that's

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Speaker 1: going to turn out to be crucial in understanding what

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Speaker 1: is gravitational information and what is trapped within the black

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Speaker 1: hole and what is not trapped within the black hole.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely so, gravitational waves are a really helpful way to

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Speaker 1: think about that.

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Speaker 4: I think like at the root of this question is

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Speaker 4: this seeming paradox, right, the idea that nothing can escape

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Speaker 4: from a black hole, and yet we do know about

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Speaker 4: black holes. We get information about black holes, But how

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Speaker 4: can we receive any information about a black hole if

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Speaker 4: it is something that is all consuming and nothing can

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Speaker 4: escape it?

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Speaker 1: Boom exactly. Adie, you were officially a physicist because you

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Speaker 1: are putting together those two ideas that you understand and saying,

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Speaker 1: how can these two things be compatible, how can we

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Speaker 1: weave them together into a singular understanding of black holes?

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Speaker 1: And what it's going to take is a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a refinement of the idea of what a black

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Speaker 1: hole is and what a black hole isn't to make

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Speaker 1: this all work together. In your head.

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Speaker 4: Well, now that you have proclaimed I am a physicist,

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Speaker 4: I am just going to waltz into like the hard

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Speaker 4: drung collider and be like physicists coming through. Let's smash

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Speaker 4: some particles.

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Speaker 7: Guys.

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Speaker 1: That's right, you have officially a PhD in podcast physics

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Speaker 1: from the Daniel and Jr.

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Speaker 4: University worth its weight in gold. So yes, I would

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Speaker 4: love some clarification on what a black hole is. You know,

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Speaker 4: I know it's a big sucky thing. I understand that

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Speaker 4: it has something to do with just an incredible density

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Speaker 4: of matter, and furthermore that gravity is very much a

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Speaker 4: defining characteristic of a black hole.

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Speaker 1: Then let's make sure we know what it is we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. So a black hole is a region of

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Speaker 1: space where the curvature of space is so powerful that

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Speaker 1: nothing that's inside that region can escape to outside. And

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Speaker 1: that region is defined by this threshold, not really like

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Speaker 1: a barrier, not like a physical wall. There's not got

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Speaker 1: a dotted line somebody draws in space that says beyond

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Speaker 1: this point, if you pass, then you will never escape.

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Speaker 1: You will be trapped within that region forever.

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Speaker 4: Someone's got to put a sign up, a warning, you know, warning,

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Speaker 4: do not pass this region, you will be spaghettified into

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Speaker 4: a black hole. But I mean when you say space

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Speaker 4: is curved, you know, this is definitely a concept I've

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Speaker 4: been introduced to before, but it's still something that I

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Speaker 4: struggle to understand because when I think of curvature, right,

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Speaker 4: I think of like a physical object that is warped,

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Speaker 4: or like say, I think of fabric and I feel like,

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Speaker 4: you know, I think of pulling down on the fabric

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Speaker 4: and then they're being sort of a curvature and things

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Speaker 4: falling into it, and then that's how I think about gravity.

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Speaker 4: But I believe that is not really exactly the correct

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Speaker 4: understanding of it. Space is not like a piece of

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Speaker 4: fabric that you pull on and things fall into that

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Speaker 4: sort of like dip. But what exactly does curvature mean

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Speaker 4: in terms of space?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Good, It's important to think about in terms of

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Speaker 1: curvature because I think a lot of people think about

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Speaker 1: black holes and sort of Antonian way where gravity is

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Speaker 1: a force and the force of gravity is so strong

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Speaker 1: that it's sucking stuff up, right, And that cartoon model

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Speaker 1: of a black hole breaks down very quickly because it

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Speaker 1: can't explain to you, like, well, why does light get

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Speaker 1: trapped by a black hole. Why can't a photon not

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Speaker 1: leave a black hole? Because in the Newtonian picture of gravity,

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Speaker 1: gravity is a force between objects with mass, and photons

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Speaker 1: have no mass, so they should feel no gravity, and

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Speaker 1: so they should be able to escape. In order to

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Speaker 1: have an understanding of what black holes are, you really

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Speaker 1: have to move your thinking of what gravity is from

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Speaker 1: this idea of forces between objects with mass to an

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Speaker 1: apparent force something that actually results from, as you say,

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Speaker 1: the curvature of space itself. So what do we mean

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Speaker 1: by the curvature of space itself? Means that space has

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Speaker 1: a characteristic to it that's invisible, something you can't see

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Speaker 1: when you look at it. You look at some chunk

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Speaker 1: of space and you can't tell whether or not it's curved.

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Speaker 1: But if you shine a laser beam through it, it

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Speaker 1: will either go in a straight line or it will not.

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Speaker 1: It will curve, It will bend this way or will

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Speaker 1: bend that way, because space has this additional weird property

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Speaker 1: that Newton never imagined. And on the smaller scale, what

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Speaker 1: it means is that the relative distances between two points

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Speaker 1: can get changed. So when we say that like space

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Speaker 1: is curved or space is bent. It means that you

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Speaker 1: can take two locations in space, you can effectively make

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Speaker 1: them closer together, or you can make them further apart.

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Speaker 1: And what that does is it changes the path that

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Speaker 1: light will take through that space, because light always takes

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Speaker 1: the shortest path between two points. Now you're changing what

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Speaker 1: the relative distances are between two points, and so you're

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Speaker 1: changing the path that light will take. But I think

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Speaker 1: the most intuitive way to think about it is that

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Speaker 1: like space has this additional bit to it, this characteristic

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Speaker 1: so when a photon is passing through it, basically the

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Speaker 1: space tells the photon where to go. It doesn't just

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Speaker 1: pass through blindly.

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Speaker 4: It's so interesting because I think the reason it's such

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Speaker 4: a difficult concept is that as humans we deal with

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Speaker 4: physics all the time. But we can observe Newtonian physics.

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Speaker 4: We can observe that type of physics. So it's I

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Speaker 4: think easier to think of particles when even like particles

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Speaker 4: that you can't observe with the naked eye, when they

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Speaker 4: are behaving according to forces, because we can, on the

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Speaker 4: more macro level observe forces. You can see a ball

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Speaker 4: knocking into a ball, you can see something fall down

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Speaker 4: a hole, but with gravity. Even though yes, it's true

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Speaker 4: we can observe gravity, we see it all the time,

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Speaker 4: right because you know, you jump up, you fall down.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the main problems that we have to

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Speaker 4: encounter as a physical being in the world, and yet

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Speaker 4: we can't actually see or kind of experience this like

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Speaker 4: secret framework behind gravity, which is that what you described,

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Speaker 4: like the relative distance between two things like becoming shorter

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Speaker 4: and like the actual like you know, space, like reality

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Speaker 4: sort of warping in a way. It's like so easy

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Speaker 4: to fall into that trap of thinking of it in

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Speaker 4: terms of the type of physics that we see and

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Speaker 4: we observe.

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Speaker 1: It's confusing precisely because it's invisible. You can't see this

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Speaker 1: curvature of space. You can only see its effect. And

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Speaker 1: the effect of the curvature of space looks in almost

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Speaker 1: every case as if there was a force there. It

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Speaker 1: looks like there is this force we call gravity that's

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Speaker 1: pulling on things, when really things are just following the

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Speaker 1: curvature of space. The shape of space itself is changing

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Speaker 1: the direction in which things move. And if you can't

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Speaker 1: see space doing it, it's like a bunch of stage

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Speaker 1: hands wearing black nudging stuff. Then you imagine that there's

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Speaker 1: a force there, and so that's why we call gravity

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Speaker 1: and the parent force. It's not an actual force the

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Speaker 1: way like electromagnetism is, or the weak force or the

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Speaker 1: strong force. It's just the effect of the invisible curvature

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Speaker 1: of space.

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Speaker 4: So when I hop down from say a safe height,

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Speaker 4: and land on the ground, I am not really getting

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Speaker 4: sucked into the ground because this is an effect of gravity, right,

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Speaker 4: The gravity of Earth is affecting me, and so I'm

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Speaker 4: not really getting sucked to the ground, but i am

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Speaker 4: like sort of just following where space is curving.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great example. Let's walk through it in

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Speaker 1: the sort of Newtonian intuitive picture, and then let's move

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Speaker 1: over to the Einstein space curvature picture. You find that

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Speaker 1: it's a very different story about exactly the same thing. So,

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Speaker 1: in the Newtonian way of thinking, where gravity is a force,

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Speaker 1: you are standing on a chair and you imagine that

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Speaker 1: there's a force of gravity pulling you down, and there's

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Speaker 1: a force of the chair pulling you up. And when

441
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 1: you stand on the chair, all forces are balanced, so

442
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: you're not going anywhere. You jump off the chair and

443
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 1: then you fall down because all you have is the

444
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: force of gravity pulling you down. There's nothing pushing you

445
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: up until you hit the surface of the Earth right

446
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: in the surace of the Earth, and it's now pushing

447
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: back up on you, and so the forces are now

448
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: balanced and you're not moving anymore. Cool. So that's the

449
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: Newtonian picture. Einstein says, actually that's all wrong, that jerk.

450
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,000
Speaker 1: There is no force of gravity, and that when you're falling,

451
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: when you jump off that chair, what's happening is you're

452
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 1: following the curvature of the Earth. You're in free fall.

453
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 1: There is no force on you at all. And in fact,

454
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: if you are carrying a little accelerometer with you, something

455
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: which can measure whether you're accelerating essentially if there's any

456
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: force on you. Example of an accelerometer is just like

457
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: a ball in a box, like is the ball pushed

458
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: towards one side or the other where like a bowling

459
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: ball in a truck, will tell you whether you're breaking

460
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: or accelerating. If you jump off that chair and you're

461
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: holding an accelerometer, you can do this experiment. You will

462
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: not measure any acceleration. You will not measure anything because

463
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 1: in that case you are not accelerating. Einstein says that

464
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: you're actually accelerating when you're standing on the chair. That

465
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 1: what you're doing there is you're accelerating against the curvature

466
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: of the Earth. And also when you're standing on the earth,

467
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: you're accelerating upward. It's against your natural path, which would

468
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: be following the curvature of gravity towards the center of

469
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 1: the Earth.

470
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 4: The chair is essentially blocking where you should go naturally

471
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 4: go by following where space is telling you to go.

472
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: Exactly, if you jump off the chair, you're in free fall.

473
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: You're not accelerating at all. You see people who are

474
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: still on their chairs as accelerating upwards against the natural

475
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: direction gravity wants to take you.

476
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 4: So, if I'm holding something like a feather, say, and

477
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 4: I jump off a chair, the feather goes slower than me.

478
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 4: Is the only reason that happens because of wind resistance?

479
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, in that case, it's the air is accelerating the

480
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: feather up. It's preventing the feather from following the curvature

481
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: of space. The air itself is pushing on the feather.

482
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 4: And that's why an ant can survive really high falls,

483
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 4: whereas a person could not, even though the ant seems

484
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 4: much more structurally delicate than a human because it's so small.

485
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 4: The air is basically like this huge you know resistance,

486
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 4: this huge force that is, you know, blocking the ant

487
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 4: from I guess following the curvature of space.

488
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's also something there about the structure

489
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: of ants when they land, but I'm not a biologist.

490
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 4: They just stick the dismount amazingly. If you zoom in

491
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 4: on an ant, it does a little summrsalt lands and

492
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 4: then takes a little bow.

493
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: So this picture of gravity is this curvature in space

494
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: rather than a force, gives us a new way to

495
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: think about a black hole. It's not a very dense

496
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: mass that has very strong sucking gravity because of all

497
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: the mass in it. It's a region of space where

498
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: the curvature is such that there is no path outwards,

499
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: where every direction is towards the center of the black hole.

500
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: Anything that's flying along is going to follow the curvature

501
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 1: of space, including photons. Photons in Einstein's gravity can be

502
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: bent because they follow the curvature of space, not because

503
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: of this Newtonian force between masses. So if hodan that

504
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: goes past the event horizon is trapped by the structure

505
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: of space itself, because every path forward now takes it

506
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: towards the center of the black hole. And that's where

507
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: this apparent mental paradox comes from that you mentioned earlier.

508
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: If a black hole traps everything, if everything is encapsulated

509
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: inside the black hole because of the structure of space,

510
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: then how is it possible for us to even know

511
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: about it? How's that gravitational information leaving this trash can

512
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: of space time.

513
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 4: I do want to hear about sort of this idea

514
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 4: of information not being able to escape a black hole,

515
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 4: because that just it sounds weird right to like say

516
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 4: like information is trapped somewhere, because when we think about information,

517
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 4: you know, it's like, wait, so I can't use Google

518
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 4: in a black hole? What does that mean? But maybe

519
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 4: we should take a quick break before we do that,

520
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 4: digest the curvature of the space. See, I need food

521
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 4: metaphors for me to learn, and then when we get back,

522
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 4: I would love to learn more about what it really

523
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 4: means to say that information cannot escape.

524
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,680
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573
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Speaker 1: into your mouth or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt,

574
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Speaker 1: you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact of each

575
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Speaker 1: and every bite, But the people in the dairy industry are.

576
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Speaker 1: US Dairy has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including

577
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Speaker 1: being greenhouse gas neutral by twenty fifty. Why they're working

578
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Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

579
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Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

580
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: For example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

581
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Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

582
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Speaker 1: the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

583
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Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

584
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585
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Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

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Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

587
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Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

588
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589
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Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

590
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Speaker 1: us dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

591
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Speaker 4: All Right, So, I think I'm starting to get a

592
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: grasp on this idea of gravity being sort of a

593
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 4: curvature of space and not a four. But I do

594
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 4: want to hear more about what it means when information

595
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 4: can't escape a black hole, because, like, again, when I

596
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 4: think of information, I'm like, well, I'm looking on Wikipedia

597
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 4: about how ants can stick the dismount. What does it

598
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 4: mean when information cannot escape a black hole?

599
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: Well, fortunately, if you fall into a black hole, you

600
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: can still access Wikipedia because information can go into Wikipedia.

601
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: You can't request specific pages because we can't hear from you,

602
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: but we can send you information. We could just like

603
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: randomly send you Wikipedia pages even after you've fallen in.

604
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,719
Speaker 4: I would like to get some Netflix and stuff if

605
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 4: I'm in a black hole because it seems if I'm

606
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 4: still alive, it seems really kind of like a lot

607
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 4: of time I'm going to spend in there. I need

608
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 4: some entertainment, you know what.

609
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: I think maybe nobody does. What everybody should do is prepare.

610
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: They're like, if I fall into a black hole, what

611
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: Netflix shows should you bean to me? The way people

612
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: like you know, prepare A will other life information, Like

613
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: I'd like to know this about people in my life.

614
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: I know what to beam to them.

615
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, exactly, I need to start working on a list.

616
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 4: But yeah, so information can't escape a black hole? What

617
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 4: is going on there? And what do we mean by information?

618
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: Really? Yeah? Great, And here's where we need to zoom

619
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: back down again to the particle level. We talk about information, Like,

620
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: imagine that you are inside the black hole and you

621
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: want to request a Wikipedia page about something. You want

622
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: to make a soup fla and you want a recipe

623
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: or something. In order to request that information, you have

624
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: to send something physical outside of the black hole. The

625
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: way information works is that it's transmitted physically. The way

626
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: you are hearing this podcast right now is wiggles in

627
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: electrons or photons being beamed across the Earth. All information

628
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: is transmitted as particles or some kind of a wave,

629
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: and so if particles cannot escape a black hole, then

630
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: you cannot send information outside the black hole because to

631
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: send that information would require sending something physical, photon, electron,

632
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: something outside of the black hole. So that's where this

633
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: idea comes from, that no information can leave a black

634
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: hole because no thing can leave a black hole, and

635
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: you need things to transmit information. Information in the end

636
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: is physical.

637
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 4: So I cannot order a pizza from a black hole,

638
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 4: which seems a little scary.

639
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: So get your pizza order in before you fall into

640
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:24,959
Speaker 1: the black hole. That's the key. It's just a little

641
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: bit of planning.

642
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 4: I am writing it in sort of my black hole

643
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 4: instruction list, that please send pizza into the black hole.

644
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 4: Should I go in there.

645
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: I think you should ask for spaghetti, actually, because everything

646
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: we send in is getting spaghetti fied anyway, so you

647
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: might as well start with spaghetti.

648
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 4: You are what you eat, especially in a black hole,

649
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 4: if you're eating spaghetti.

650
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: But let's get specific about what we mean by information,

651
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: because this is the crux of the issue. This is

652
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: how we're going to understand later why you can feel

653
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: gravity from outside a black hole, but you can't order

654
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 1: pizza from within the black hole. And what we mean

655
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: by information is sort of like an update, a change

656
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: of state, so you're communicating something is different. Like if

657
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: Katie and I are across the room from each other,

658
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: she can send me information by like shooting photons at me.

659
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: Right for example, if she doesn't shoot any photons at me,

660
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: I can assume like, Okay, Katie's still there. I haven't

661
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: heard from her in a while. But if I want

662
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: any new information from Katie, if you want any updates

663
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: on her situation, she wants to warn me about something,

664
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: or tell me about the pizza she wants, or change

665
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: her list of Netflix shows she wants to watch, then

666
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: she would need to send me some information, some electrons

667
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: or some photons. So information is sort of like an update.

668
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: It's like something new that.

669
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 4: You're learning, right, So it kind of makes me think

670
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 4: of like, uh, you know the basis behind things like computers.

671
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 4: You have to have little on off things, and you

672
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 4: know this system inside of a computer like a zero

673
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 4: one an on or and off, and that change from

674
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 4: off to on is a sort of bit of information

675
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 4: that can be expanded into of course the complexity of

676
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 4: computer it's the same thing I think with you know,

677
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 4: in terms of the brain, where you have either a

678
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 4: synapse has fired or it has not. There's a little

679
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 4: more complexity because it's it's a large biological process. So

680
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 4: you have you know, some states that are somewhat in between,

681
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 4: you know. But essentially it's like this on off state.

682
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 4: You need to be able to clearly have an off

683
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 4: position and an on position and have that reach from

684
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 4: one you know, like be able you know, even with

685
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 4: like say a neuron, you are shooting neurotransmitters from one

686
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 4: end of a neuron to the other end of another neuron.

687
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 4: So it's like it's very much like in our day

688
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 4: to day life we experience this concept of information exactly.

689
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 1: And so you could also think about information in the

690
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: sense of like affecting the future. Information is something that

691
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: but in the future can use to make a decision.

692
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: Like if I could tell you what the Powerball winning

693
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: numbers are, you can be a billionaire tomorrow because you

694
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: would know exactly what numbers to put in. So if

695
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: I have information, I can send it to somebody and

696
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: they can use that to make a decision. It can

697
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: like change the future if I'm sending them information. This

698
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: is closely connected with another concept we've talked about on

699
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: the podcast a lot, which is this causal link, right,

700
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,959
Speaker 1: like causes and effects, how they can be connected, because

701
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: there's already a limit to how you can affect the

702
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 1: future in the universe, Like, for example, I can't change

703
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: the future in Andromeda tomorrow. Andromeda is so many light

704
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 1: years away, and any information I send to Andromeda will

705
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: not arrive for millions of years, and so nothing I

706
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: do today can get any information to Andromeda by tomorrow.

707
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,919
Speaker 4: So we cannot get a pizza from or to Andromeda

708
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 4: anytime soon.

709
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: That's right. We can't even tell Andromeda about what kind

710
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: of pieces they should order, which in principle could travel

711
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: at the maximum speed of information, which is light speed.

712
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: And so we have this concept we call a light cone,

713
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 1: which tells you where in the universe your information can reach.

714
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 1: You can send signals, you can turn on flashing lights,

715
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: but people outside your light cone will not see it,

716
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: and so the light cone expands as time goes on.

717
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 1: You send a flare. Now that information propagates through the

718
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: universe and eventually will reach the edges of the universe.

719
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: Your light cone is expanding in time from every moment,

720
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: but there is a limitation there, right, there are already

721
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: parts of the universe that your information cannot reach at

722
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 1: an arbitrary time, So there's a limit to the information.

723
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: You can't send any information to people outside your light cone.

724
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 4: I don't know if this is a pretty rudimentary question,

725
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 4: but from Earth, right, we can't see every star in existence?

726
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 4: Can we or are we able to see like get

727
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 4: light information from every star in existence? From Earth?

728
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: We can't because the universe is not old enough.

729
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 6: Right.

730
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: The universe is finite age, so there are some stars

731
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: that are so distant that light from them has not

732
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: had time to arrive here. Plus you've got a factor

733
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: in the expansion or the universe. It gets much more complicated.

734
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: But no, there definitely starts who have sent photons towards

735
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: us but have not yet arrived.

736
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 4: So it is a matter of timing where because like

737
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 4: all the stars that we see right now, like that

738
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 4: information is really old, that light information that we're receiving now.

739
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, Yeah, that information is very old, and

740
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 1: it's a matter of timing. And if space was simple,

741
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 1: space was always flat, if there was no curvature. Photons

742
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: always traveled in a straight direction and at the speed

743
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: of light. Then the only limited information would be timing.

744
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: But the curvature of space changes things. And in curved space,

745
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 1: your light cone is not a simple cone. It gets bent,

746
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: it gets distorted. Near a black hole, or anywhere where

747
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: space is curved, your light cone gets twisted because it

748
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,560
Speaker 1: changes where photons go. Right, you send out a flash

749
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: of light, Now they're going in some directions and not

750
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: in other directions. They get twisted, they get bent. Once

751
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: you pass over the event horizon, your light cone is

752
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: now just pointed towards the center of the singularity. Any

753
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: flare you set off, all photons are going to end

754
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: up going towards the singularity. So your light cone is

755
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: now sort of trapped behind this barrier. And that's what

756
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: we mean when we say information cannot escape a black hole.

757
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: We mean that nobody passed that threshold. Can ever send

758
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: you a photon that arrives to you.

759
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 4: If a photon approaches a black hole but doesn't pass

760
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 4: the event horizon, can its light cone still get bent

761
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 4: but not fall into the black hole.

762
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. In fact, there's a region near black holes

763
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: where photons can orbit, they can get trapped and forever

764
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,839
Speaker 1: loop around a black hole, which is pretty cool, or

765
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: they can do other weird things like pass around the

766
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: backside of a black hole and then come back. So

767
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: you can shoot it like a laser beam just above

768
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: a black hole and kind of come around the backside

769
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: and app you in the eyeball from below the black hole.

770
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 4: It's like a laser boomerang.

771
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: So the key thing to understand there is that information

772
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: is about changes of state, how things change, getting updates

773
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: about what's going on, decisions that are made, new facts

774
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 1: that arise. Information is about changes of state.

775
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 4: So with gravity, Now, I thought that we had talked

776
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 4: about a previous episode about how with gravity there is

777
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 4: a phenomenon known as gravitational waves, which would indicate that

778
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:36,280
Speaker 4: gravity can change. Right, You can have changes in gravity.

779
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 4: So why would it be considered that gravity is not

780
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 4: a form of information.

781
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: Yes, great example, So gravitational wave is a great example

782
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: of gravity changing. Right. We talked about gravity in terms

783
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: of the curvature of space. So imagine space has some

784
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 1: curvature because of the arrangements of masses in it. So

785
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: space has that curvature, and that curvature is just fixed.

786
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: It's constant. Right. Now, take one of those masses, the

787
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: Sun maybe, and wiggle it. You put your finger on it,

788
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: you shake it back and forth. If you wiggle the Sun,

789
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: you're changing where the mass is, You're changing how space

790
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 1: is bent. So what's happening to there is the curvature

791
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: is changing. You're moving the Sun to the left, and

792
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: you're moving it to the right, and you're moving it

793
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: to the left again. You're moving it to the right,

794
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: and that's information and that information propagates out at the

795
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 1: speed of light. And so if you're far away from

796
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: the Sun when somebody's wiggling it, you don't feel those

797
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: changes instantly. It takes time for that information to get

798
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: to you. So Katie wiggles the Sun. Eight minutes later,

799
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: I feel the gravity on Earth shaking a little bit.

800
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: It gets stronger, it gets weaker, it gets stronger, it

801
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: gets weaker. That's a gravitational wave. That's information moving through

802
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: the gravitational field. So I think that's sort of a

803
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: long answer to your question, which is can you send

804
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: information through gravity? And the answer is yes, And that's

805
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: what gravitational waves are. There's information sent to the gravitational field.

806
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: The crucial thing is that that's all about a change

807
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 1: in the gravitational field. There's no information being propagated. When

808
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: the Sun is static, the field is not changing. There's

809
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: no information there. When you move the Sun, when you've

810
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: wiggled it, that's sending information.

811
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 4: So Earth has gravity, obviously, but when the Earth moves,

812
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 4: you're getting some change in gravity, and so you're getting

813
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 4: gravitational waves. And so that change of the Earth moving

814
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 4: is sending out information in terms of the change in gravity.

815
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And when the Earth orbits the Sun, because it's

816
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: effectively moving through space and changing the Earth's gravitational field,

817
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,919
Speaker 1: we are generating gravitational waves. Our orbit around the Sun

818
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: generates gravitational waves, and it actually contributes to the decay

819
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: of Earth's orbit because gravitational waves contain energy, so we're

820
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: radiating away some of our energy every time we go

821
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: around the Sun. You just did an episode about this

822
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: about how stable is the Earth's orbit, and it turns

823
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 1: out that's a very very small effect of the stability

824
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: of the Earth's orbit. But in principle, yes, we are

825
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: generating gravitational waves which contain information. And if you had

826
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: a sensitive enough gravitational wave detector, you could pick up

827
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: those wiggles in space time that are telling you about

828
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 1: how the Earth is moving.

829
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 4: So gravity can convey information. It can be considered a

830
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 4: form of information if it is a change in the gravity.

831
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 4: So with a black hole, why aren't we seeing a

832
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 4: change in gravity? Because I would assume if we're not

833
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 4: getting gravitational information from a black hole, that would mean

834
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 4: that there is not a change in the gravity of

835
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 4: a black hole.

836
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And so now I think we have all

837
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: the pieces in place to try to answer this question,

838
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: which is a black hole does of course have gravity,

839
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: and you can feel its gravity from a distance. You

840
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: are a light year from a black hole, you will

841
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: feel its gravity. But what you can't feel are changes

842
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: to its gravity. So if there's something going on inside

843
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: the event horizon, Katie's in there and she's doing a dance,

844
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: or she's rearranging her living room or whatever, you can't

845
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: get that kind of information if you change the configuration

846
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: of the masses inside the black hole. In principle, that

847
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: generates gravitational waves, but those are trapped within the event horizon.

848
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,240
Speaker 1: So nothing that's happening within the event horizon is generating

849
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: any gravitational information that's escaping. All you're feeling is the

850
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: static field of the black hole, the one that was

851
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 1: created when it was formed. So you have a black

852
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: hole and it has a static gravitational field. Nothing is changing,

853
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: and anything that happens inside the event horizon is going

854
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: to generate gravitational waves, but they don't leave the black hole.

855
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: So you can have gravity outside the black hole from

856
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: its original formation without knowing what's going on later inside

857
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: the event horizon, without getting any information from inside the

858
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: event horizon. The only information you have is the existence

859
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 1: of the black hole from when it was created, which

860
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 1: is not information from inside the event horizon. Another way

861
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: to think about it is you create the black hole,

862
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,919
Speaker 1: you're then freezing that gravitational field. Nothing that happens pas

863
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: the event horizon can then change the gravitational field outside

864
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: the black hole. Now that's all if the black hole

865
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: is not moving and so it has a static, unchanging

866
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: gravitational field. If you wiggle a black hole or if

867
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: black holes merge, that motion creates ripples in the gravitational field,

868
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: just like it does when the Sun or the Earth moves.

869
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: But that's motion of the event horizon. It's not information

870
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,359
Speaker 1: from inside the event horizon about what's going on within it.

871
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: Another way to say it is that from the outside

872
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: you can see if the black hole is wiggling, but

873
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: that's not information from inside the event horizon. You can't

874
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: tell if things inside are wiggling, only if the whole

875
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 1: thing is moving.

876
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 4: I mean that's interesting because it's like, I suspect this

877
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 4: might be the wrong way to conceptualize it, but in

878
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 4: my head, I'm thinking of sort of a Russian nesting doll,

879
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 4: where it's like the black hole is the main one,

880
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 4: the main sort of gravitational field, and inside you could

881
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 4: have like the little tiny doll dancing around doing stuff,

882
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 4: but none of that is reaching outside of this nesting

883
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 4: doll because like the bigger one is essentially this like

884
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 4: static large gravitational field, and nothing is getting outside of it.

885
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's a great way to think about it.

886
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: Another useful thing to think through is how a black

887
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,959
Speaker 1: hole gets formed, the moment in which a black hole

888
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: is created. I think that can really help people crystallize

889
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: how that information is propagated through the universe and why

890
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: no more information is ever sent out from that object.

891
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 4: All Right, let's take a quick break. As I mentally

892
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 4: prepare my mind to be blown, I'll lay out a

893
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 4: tarp and then when we get back, please tell me

894
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 4: how a black hole is created.

895
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

896
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

897
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite,

898
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy

899
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

900
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,879
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901
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

902
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

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00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times.

904
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: The same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn,

905
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906
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,440
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Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice

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Speaker 4: All right, So I am officially ready for my brain

944
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,160
Speaker 4: to explode from the information of how a black hole

945
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 4: is formed.

946
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: So all you have to do to form a black

947
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 1: hole is just order enough pizzas. Really, that's all it takes. Heay,

948
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 1: So we know that there are black holes out there

949
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: in the universe and that they are created right there

950
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 1: are black holes that have not existed since the beginning

951
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 1: of the universe. So there has to be some moment

952
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: when there wasn't a black hole and when there is

953
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: a black hole. And I think the thinking through that

954
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: moment really can help people understand what we're talking about

955
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: when we say a black hole, what it means for

956
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: information to be trapped within it. And so there's lots

957
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: of ways that a black hole can be made in

958
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: the universe, but let's try to think about like the

959
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: simplest possible configuration and in general relativity, one very frequently

960
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: used example is like a sphere of rocks. Imagine you

961
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: have like tiny little bits of dust or pebbles, and

962
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: you have a perfectly symmetrical sphere of it. Okay, and

963
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: now gravity is pulling it, and so it's collapsing. It's

964
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: going to pull towards itself and get denser and denser

965
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:35,959
Speaker 1: and denser. Now, how do you make a black hole.

966
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 1: You make a black hole by having enough stuff in

967
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: a small enough space. It's all about the density of matter.

968
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: You could take the Earth and squeeze it into a

969
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: peanut to get a black hole. You could take the

970
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,799
Speaker 1: Sun and squeeze it into like a three kilometer wide

971
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: object to get a black hole. You could take a

972
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 1: huge blob of stuff and squeeze it. The point is

973
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: to get high enough density. So now you have this

974
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:59,240
Speaker 1: hollow sphere of pebbles, right, everything's like the same distance

975
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 1: from the center, and it's collapsing slowly. At some point

976
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: it's going to be dense enough to pass this threshold

977
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: and become a black hole. It's going to be a

978
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: moment before it passes that threshold where it's just like

979
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: a sphere of stuff that has gravity, and then a

980
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 1: moment after passes that threshold, now it's a black hole.

981
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 4: How does the incredible density cause Essentially, what I'm imagining

982
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 4: is like pinching the curvature of space such that everything

983
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 4: is going towards that point, Like, how does density cause

984
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 4: that to happen?

985
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: We talked about how gravity is actually just the curvature

986
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: of space. We didn't talk about how you make that curvature,

987
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 1: why bits of space are curved here or not curved there.

988
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: So the missing piece is density energy density. If you

989
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,280
Speaker 1: have a chunk of space with a lot of energy

990
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: in it, be it mass or photons or any kind

991
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: of energy, then that space gets curved. So the simplest

992
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: version of general relativity is mass tells space how to bend.

993
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: Space tell's mass how to move, and so it's that

994
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: first bit that mass tells space have to bend. The

995
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: more energy density, usually in the form of mass, that

996
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: you pile into a little chunk of space, the more

997
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: curvature you get. When you cross past some threshold, then

998
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 1: you have so much curvature that nothing can escape anymore.

999
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: So that's the moment you become a black hole. So

1000
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 1: you take this sphere of dust again, it's a hollow sphere.

1001
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: It's not filled in the center. If it's really really big,

1002
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: then you have a lot of empty space. Also, you're

1003
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: including density is very very low, you don't have a

1004
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 1: black hole. As you collapse it, the radius gets smaller

1005
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: and smaller, all the bits get closer and closer together.

1006
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: Eventually you pass over the short stiled radius the radius

1007
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: of an event horizon for that amount of stuff, and

1008
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 1: then you have enough density that there's enough curvature that

1009
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: you've got a black hole.

1010
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 4: So mass, which we can observe, is sort of tied

1011
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 4: to this hidden world of gravity which we cannot see.

1012
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,479
Speaker 4: We can feel the effects of, but we cannot see

1013
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 4: the curvature of space. But that curvature of space has

1014
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 4: direct connections to all the mass that we can directly observe.

1015
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. And remember that's not just mass.

1016
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 1: Right in Newton's physics, it's just mass, But in Einstein's

1017
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: relativity it's energy density. That's why photons and other massless

1018
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: things can actually contribute to the curvature of space. You

1019
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 1: can actually just make a black hole by overlapping powerful

1020
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: laser beams. Pure photons can make a black hole in theory.

1021
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,800
Speaker 4: Okay, how do you know that, Daniel, Are you working

1022
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 4: on that? Are you doing that?

1023
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: I can neither deny nor confirm those experiments.

1024
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 4: That's incredible that just through light, if you cram enough

1025
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 4: light into a small enough area, not only are you

1026
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 4: going to like blow out your retinas, you're going to

1027
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 4: create a black hole.

1028
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: So now let's go back to our collapsing sphere of

1029
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 1: pebbles or dust or rocks or whatever. What happens when

1030
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: it creates a black hole? What is changing in space

1031
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: the moment before it creates a black hole? What do

1032
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: you have? What you have gravity? Right, if somebody's going

1033
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 1: to shoot a photon or a particle near it, it's

1034
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: going to be bending space, and it's going to affect

1035
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:10,800
Speaker 1: the path of that stuff. Right, You're going to feel

1036
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 1: the effective force of gravity from this sphere of rocks, right,

1037
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 1: because it has mass, it's curving space. It's giving you

1038
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: that effect. No big deal, no surprise there. What happens

1039
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 1: when it crosses that threshold and becomes a black hole? Well,

1040
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: nothing changes from that point of view, right, because the

1041
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: mass hasn't changed, the overall energy hasn't changed. So if

1042
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: you're on the outside, when this sphere becomes a black hole,

1043
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: nothing changes gravitationally, the gravitational field is still the same.

1044
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: And that makes sense, right. It's not like the gravity

1045
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: disappears when the thing becomes a black hole. It changes

1046
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: from a big sphere of dust to a black hole.

1047
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 1: But if it has the same mass, it has the

1048
00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 1: same gravity as before it became a black hole.

1049
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 4: Okay, So you have this amount of gravity that just

1050
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 4: before the black hole is created, and then once the

1051
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:03,279
Speaker 4: black hole happens, that gravity is the same. So can

1052
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 4: you not add any more gravity to a black hole?

1053
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 4: Like you cannot? Like, say, you put more stuff into

1054
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:12,799
Speaker 4: a black hole, you put more particles into that black hole.

1055
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 4: You shoot some lasers there's no more gravity that you

1056
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 4: can add to that.

1057
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: That's a great question. Actually really illustrates this point very nicely.

1058
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: Absolutely you can. Right, if you shoot a laser into

1059
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: the black hole, or you throw a more mast in

1060
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: the black hole, you are going to increase its gravity,

1061
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: and that information will propagate outwards. Right, you add to

1062
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: a black hole, you add to its gravity. You can

1063
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 1: feel more gravity now somewhere else. That information will propagate

1064
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: outwards as a gravitational wave. Is a change in the

1065
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 1: gravitational field of the black hole. But that's external, right,

1066
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,400
Speaker 1: that's not information coming from within the black hole. That

1067
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: stuff you're adding from the outside. If you have just

1068
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: a black hole and it's collapsed and you're not changing

1069
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 1: its gravitational field, then what does it mean for information

1070
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,280
Speaker 1: to not be able to escape if you're still feeling

1071
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: its gravity. What that means is that anything that's happening

1072
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,880
Speaker 1: to that stuff that fell into the black hole, you

1073
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: can't tell. Basically, the gravitation field is just frozen from

1074
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: that stuff. If that stuff goes in and does a

1075
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: funny dance, or becomes a singularity, or becomes a quantum fuzzball,

1076
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: or does whatever, you can't ever see, it can't ever

1077
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: tell you anything about it. You can't ever learn anything

1078
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: about the configuration of the mass within the event horizon.

1079
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: The gravitational field of that stuff still exists, but it's

1080
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: now frozen in time. You will get no more updates.

1081
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: If you take that stuff inside the black hole and

1082
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: wiggle it around, generating a bunch of gravitational waves within

1083
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: the event horizon, those waves are trapped within the event horizon.

1084
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: Outside you will still see the same exact gravitational field.

1085
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: And that's why we made the distinction earlier about information

1086
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: being about updates, because that gravitational field can be static.

1087
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: There's no information escaping from within the black hole. It's

1088
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: just sort of like think about the event horizon itself

1089
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: as having that gravity, or the last information you got

1090
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: about this stuff was just before it falls into the

1091
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 1: black hole. It's that gravitational field you're feeling, no updates,

1092
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: no information means that gravitational field is effectively frozen.

1093
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 4: So would it be fair to say that we can

1094
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 4: get information from the existence of a black hole, and

1095
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 4: we can get information by shooting information into a black

1096
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 4: hole and then that sort of changing the characteristics of

1097
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 4: the black hole. But we cannot get any information from

1098
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 4: anything that is already inside of the black hole.

1099
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: Exactly because that would require communicating something physically. Right, if

1100
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: you wanted to send information from within the black hole,

1101
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: you need to like take a bowling ball and wiggle it,

1102
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: which would generate gravitational waves. But I can't feel that

1103
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: from the outside. What I feel is the gravitational field

1104
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:51,959
Speaker 1: of the stuff the moment it became a black hole.

1105
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 1: That's what it got frozen in time, although gravitational waves

1106
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,880
Speaker 1: generated inside of it and the updates to that gravitational

1107
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: field are now trapped the same way like if you

1108
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 1: shoot photons or if you shoot electrons. Right, Remember, information

1109
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: is physical. None of that physical information can leave all right.

1110
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 4: But now hear me out. If you had a really

1111
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 4: long string and you're sitting here on Earth with a

1112
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 4: dixie cup attached to your end, and I'm all the

1113
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 4: way in a black hole with that string and a

1114
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 4: dixie cup on my end, no, I cannot communicate any

1115
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 4: information to you, even if somehow that string was strong

1116
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 4: enough to survive the black hole.

1117
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 9: Right.

1118
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: Well, there, you're creating a new paradox, because there is

1119
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 1: no string strong enough to survive a black hole. Right,

1120
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: because as you zoom in microscopically to that string, it's

1121
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: really just a bunch of particles transmitting information to each

1122
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: other using electrons or using photons, and those photons cannot

1123
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: escape the black hole. But you know, electrons and photons

1124
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: are a great way to think about this information. Also,

1125
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: like say you take an electron, and you just have

1126
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: an electron in space. Electron has an electric field, right,

1127
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: a static field all through space. It gets stronger as

1128
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: you're closer to it, and weaker as you get further away. Now,

1129
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 1: what happens if you shake that electron. You shake that electron,

1130
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 1: you're changing the electric field, and that change is a photon.

1131
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 1: It's physical information. It's changing the field of the electron

1132
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: that is transmitting the information. The static, frozen, constant existence

1133
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,000
Speaker 1: of the field is not information, which is why stationary

1134
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: electrons don't generate photons in the same way that like,

1135
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 1: the existence of the black hole and its gravitational field

1136
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: is sort of like old information from before it became

1137
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 1: a black hole, when it was created. Any new information

1138
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: created within it by moving this stuff inside is not

1139
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: going to be transmitted. So information gravitational waves or photons

1140
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: really are about changes in the field, not about the

1141
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: existence of the field itself.

1142
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 4: So in my string and cup analogy, of course the

1143
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 4: string would not survive. But you know, with a hypothetical string,

1144
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 4: I could be shaken it. I could be talking into

1145
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 4: the Dixie cup. But as soon as that information, you know,

1146
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 4: is basically the part of the hypothetical string outside of

1147
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 4: the event horizon is getting nothing from the string inside

1148
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 4: from within the event horizon, exactly.

1149
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 1: Your string is going to be dangling towards the center

1150
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: of the black hole. All the information you create is

1151
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: going to get funneled towards the center of the black hole.

1152
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 4: Wow. Well, I'm going to really emphasize that if I

1153
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 4: am in a black hole, Pepperoni pizza is good. Also,

1154
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 4: do a nice carbonara, just keep them common for eternity.

1155
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 4: I suppose that sounds good.

1156
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: It's good to get that information now before you fall

1157
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 1: into the black hole.

1158
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:45,360
Speaker 4: Right, could happen any day. We are sponsored by black

1159
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 4: Hole Insurance. Make sure to set up your affares before

1160
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 4: you get sucked into a black hole, or should I say,

1161
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 4: not sucked into a black hole, but follow the curvature

1162
01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 4: of space into a black hole.

1163
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 1: So you should think about black holes as Berry to information.

1164
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:03,320
Speaker 1: But I hope this podcast has helped you understand a

1165
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 1: little bit more what that means, what information really is,

1166
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 1: because what's inside a black hole can affect what's outside

1167
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 1: a black hole. The creation of the black hole itself

1168
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 1: affects space time near the black hole. But sort of

1169
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: in a simplified way, we can only know a few

1170
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: things about the black hole. We can know it's mass,

1171
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: we can know it's charge, we can know its spin.

1172
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 1: Anything else that happens within the black hole can't change

1173
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,520
Speaker 1: what's happening on the outside. The changes behind the barrier,

1174
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: wiggles and rearrangements of the stuff within the black hole

1175
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 1: can't influence things on the outside. So I think the

1176
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: crucial concept there is that information really is about changing

1177
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 1: the internal arrangements. That's what you're prevented from knowing, not

1178
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:47,400
Speaker 1: the existence of the black hole, but what's going on

1179
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 1: inside of it.

1180
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,440
Speaker 4: So I could be inside of the black hole, drunk

1181
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 4: off of Martini's standing on the blackjack table and screaming

1182
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 4: out the lyrics to a Katie Perry song, and no

1183
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 4: one would ever know.

1184
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 1: Only people within the black hole and closer to the center.

1185
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 1: But hopefully what happens inside a black hole stays inside

1186
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: a black hole.

1187
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's good information to know, because I know

1188
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 4: now where I'm going to do my next Vegas trip,

1189
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:19,200
Speaker 4: and it's not in Vegas.

1190
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 1: All right. Well, I want everybody out there to keep

1191
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 1: thinking like a physicist, trying to bring pieces of understanding

1192
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 1: together and weave them into a deeper, more profound model

1193
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: in your head about how the universe works, how these

1194
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 1: things all interact, and when things don't jive together, when

1195
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: they don't make sense to you, or when you feel

1196
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: like you have hit upon a contradition right to us,

1197
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 1: we will help you figure it out. Questions at Danielanjorge

1198
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: dot com. Our goal is to turn everybody into a physicist.

1199
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 4: You and your army of physicists. What are you planning?

1200
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: I can neither confirm nor deny our plan. Thanks very

1201
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 1: much Katie for joining me on this path towards the

1202
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 1: center of understanding, following the curvature of explanations.

1203
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,800
Speaker 4: Thank you for all the information. I'm glad we're not

1204
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 4: broadcasting from a black hole where nobody would know.

1205
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:07,439
Speaker 1: And thanks everybody for listening. Tune in next time.

1206
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,360
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