Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Christia Freeland, Canada's former finance minister and deputy Prime Minister,
Speaker 2: sent shockwaves around the world when she stepped down from
Speaker 2: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's cabinet in December. She had been
Speaker 2: seen as one of Trudeau's closest allies. In the way
Speaker 2: that she resigned as shaking the government to its core.
Speaker 1: Why did she do this?
Speaker 2: She was his most powerful minister. In a fiery resignation letter,
Speaker 2: Freeland blasted Trudeau for not doing enough to prepare for
Speaker 2: the challenges of a second Trump term. Her resignation set
Speaker 2: in motion a series of events that culminated in a
Speaker 2: new leadership election. Trudeau is stepping down after nine years
Speaker 2: in office. Now Freeland is running to replace him to
Speaker 2: be the next leader of the Liberal Party, and her
Speaker 2: pitch to Canadians is there is no candidate better equipped
Speaker 2: to deal with Donald Trump, who was threatened to impose
Speaker 2: a twenty five percent tariff on Canadian goods on feb first.
Speaker 2: I sat down with Freeland on Tuesday in Toronto for
Speaker 2: an exclusive interview.
Speaker 1: Today for Canada, the most significant economic fact and reality
Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump is president with a plan to
Speaker 1: change the world, and we don't need to be afraid
Speaker 1: of that. We need to have a plan to deal
Speaker 1: with it, and we need to recognize the magnitude of
Speaker 1: the challenge.
Speaker 2: I'm David Gerra, and this is the Big Take from
Speaker 2: Bloomberg News Today. On the show, my interview with Christia Freeland,
Speaker 2: Canada's former finance minister, who's calling for a proactive response
Speaker 2: to Trump's proposed tariffs, and she makes her case to
Speaker 2: be Canada's next leader. We talk about Trump's second term
Speaker 2: and what she sees on the horizon for one of
Speaker 2: the US's closest allies. This interview has been lightly edited
Speaker 2: and condensed for clarity. The full interview is available on
Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot com and on the Bloomberg Terminal. Thank you
Speaker 2: very much for doing this, appreciated.
Speaker 1: It is great to be with you, David. Thank you
Speaker 1: for coming to Toronto. I hope you're not freezing today.
Speaker 2: It was very cold. The wind was fierce last night
Speaker 2: when we got here.
Speaker 1: That's why Canadians are so tough. That winter trains us.
Speaker 2: Let's get right to it and if President Trump follows
Speaker 2: through on this threat to impose twenty five percent tariff
Speaker 2: across the board on Canadian goods. How should Canada respond?
Speaker 1: Well, I think we should start responding today. I think
Speaker 1: that we should publish for consultation a retaliation list. I
Speaker 1: think it should be massive, right, it should be two
Speaker 1: hundred billion. That's not saying that we retaliate at two
Speaker 1: hundred billion, but giving us like a menu, like a
Speaker 1: s'morgus board of choices. And we need to publish it
Speaker 1: now because when President Trump says America first, I believe him,
Speaker 1: and I believe that he doesn't care that much if
Speaker 1: Canadian politicians are jumping around banging our fists on the table,
Speaker 1: et cetera. But he cares about Americans. And I want
Speaker 1: Wisconsin dairy farmers to see themselves on that list and
Speaker 1: to be calling the White House and to be saying,
Speaker 1: mister President, we elected you, but now it's going to
Speaker 1: be terrible. We're not going to be able to sell
Speaker 1: stuff to Canada. I want Michigan blue collar workers who
Speaker 1: make washing machines in Michigan to see their washing machines
Speaker 1: on the list and to call at the White House
Speaker 1: and say, mister President, what the heck here? We love
Speaker 1: selling stuff to Canada.
Speaker 2: Do not do this.
Speaker 1: And the thing that I think can sometimes be missed.
Speaker 1: I think, if you will permit me, David, to put
Speaker 1: myself in the mind of Americans, I think you guys
Speaker 1: don't think about Canada very much. I think when you
Speaker 1: think about Canada, maybe you think about hockey. Maybe you
Speaker 1: think we're quite nice and we say please and thank you,
Speaker 1: and probably true, probably we say sorry a little more
Speaker 1: than you guys would. And I just don't think you
Speaker 1: think of us as major players, and that is fine
Speaker 1: with us. But what you miss in that calculation about
Speaker 1: Canada is uniquely in the whole world, we have economic
Speaker 1: leverage over you. You guys are not a big trading nation,
Speaker 1: but insofar as you export stuff, you sell it to
Speaker 1: your Canadian pals. We are a larger market for the
Speaker 1: United States than China, Japan, the UK, and France combined.
Speaker 1: So actually we do matter for you. And one thing
Speaker 1: that I love about Americans is you guys have a
Speaker 1: true entrepreneurial spirit and commercial spirit. You are the guys
Speaker 1: who say the customer is always right. Well, guess what,
Speaker 1: We're your main customer.
Speaker 2: A criticism I hear of your approach is by doing this,
Speaker 2: by up with that menu or that long list. You're
Speaker 2: going to further raise the hackles of President Trump. You're
Speaker 2: kind of putting more of a target on your back.
Speaker 2: What do you say to those critics? Who are you?
Speaker 1: Then? You know? I have a lot of respect for
Speaker 1: President Trump. I think he has been throughout his career underestimated.
Speaker 1: I think he is a really smart guy. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that I've observed is I think he's
Speaker 1: going to be smarter in this administration than he was
Speaker 1: in the first one. Someone I have good relations This
Speaker 1: may surprise you, David, with a lot of people close
Speaker 1: to the president. One of them actually was in my
Speaker 1: house here in Toronto for supper a few weeks. Again,
Speaker 1: this is I'm not going to tell you, no cars,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tell you he won't come back
Speaker 1: for supper, right, But he said, you know, the President
Speaker 1: has spent since the election weeks and weeks and weeks
Speaker 1: hanging out with really smart people, and he has some
Speaker 1: really good and clear ideas. So I take the President
Speaker 1: very very seriously as a smart guy actually with a
Speaker 1: clear worldview. I also observe his negotiating style and what
Speaker 1: I observe, which I think everybody sees is this is
Speaker 1: not a guy for whom weakness is attractive. I would
Speaker 1: say for President Trump, weakness is a provocation. I think
Speaker 1: capitulation is not a negotiating strategy with him. This person
Speaker 1: close to the President said to me, this was before
Speaker 1: the inauguration. He said, Trump thinks it's just great. He's
Speaker 1: going around yelling at the world, threatening the world, and
Speaker 1: countries are just tripping over themselves to like preconcede. They're
Speaker 1: negotiating with themselves. He's not even president, and they're offering
Speaker 1: him a million things. And the President, quite rightly, by
Speaker 1: the way, thinks this is great. He hasn't done a
Speaker 1: single thing and the world is tripping over itself to
Speaker 1: give him stuff. Now, I truly believe that Canada and
Speaker 1: the United States today have a really fabulous mutually beneficial
Speaker 1: win win productive relationship, and I think we need to
Speaker 1: and should have that in the future. But I think
Speaker 1: the way you get there generally in life, but particularly
Speaker 1: with this president is to say to him, you know what, really,
Speaker 1: pushing us around is not a good idea.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you what maybe a dumb sounding question,
Speaker 2: and that.
Speaker 1: Is there are no dumb questions, thank you?
Speaker 2: What does President Trump want here? We are just a
Speaker 2: few days away from this February first deadline that he's
Speaker 2: put in place. He's talked a lot about traffic of drugs,
Speaker 2: He's talked about immigration. Do you have a clear sense
Speaker 2: of what would have to happen for him to forego
Speaker 2: putting those tariffs in place?
Speaker 1: I am not going to presume to know what President
Speaker 1: Trump wants. I think that that is up to him
Speaker 1: and the very smart people around around him to say.
Speaker 1: But based on past behavior, based on what we're seeing,
Speaker 1: I think President Trump is seeking to accomplish three things.
Speaker 1: First of all, he would just like Canada to negotiate
Speaker 1: with itself as much as possible, and he'd like us
Speaker 1: to anti up tons of stuff. So that's number one.
Speaker 1: I think Number two, what President Trump is trying to do,
Speaker 1: quite intentionally is create uncertainty for investors in every country
Speaker 1: other than the United States. He wants to make investors
Speaker 1: when they're thinking about where do you put that the
Speaker 1: next dollar, to think we have no idea what President
Speaker 1: Trump is going to do. We know he wants us
Speaker 1: to invest in the US. We don't know what he's
Speaker 1: going to do to any other country. So what the heck,
Speaker 1: let's put our money in the United States, And that
Speaker 1: is not a dumb strategy, right, you know, just by
Speaker 1: saying a few things on social media, you automatically suck
Speaker 1: capital into the United States. I think the third thing
Speaker 1: that the President wants to do is uncle je Les
Speaker 1: as we would say here, And I think that as
Speaker 1: Canadians we think about Canada US very much. But I
Speaker 1: know Americans, you guys don't wake up in the morning
Speaker 1: and think, hey, how's our relationship with the Canadians going?
Speaker 1: And President Trump, I do think, has clearly elaborated and
Speaker 1: sophisticated worldview of what he wants to do, and it
Speaker 1: seems pretty clear to me that he has come to
Speaker 1: the conclusion that if he can show the rest of
Speaker 1: the world how mean and tough he can be with
Speaker 1: his closest partners and allies, how much he's prepared to
Speaker 1: beat up on those really nice Canadians who throughout history
Speaker 1: have been great partners for the US. How do you
Speaker 1: think that's going to make the Chinese feel? So I
Speaker 1: think there's that calculation as well, But I do want
Speaker 1: to offer a positive opportunity that I think is in
Speaker 1: the President's mind as well. Maybe two positive opportunities to
Speaker 1: positive exit ramps. The first one is I do think
Speaker 1: the President is very concerned about US security security for
Speaker 1: the USA economic security, but also national security, and in
Speaker 1: that context, kind of locking down your neighbors, locking down
Speaker 1: your continent makes a lot of sense. Locking down your
Speaker 1: continent by saying, hey, Canadians be the fifty first state.
Speaker 1: I really want to assure you, my American friends and neighbors,
Speaker 1: it's not going to work. That is going to get
Speaker 1: our hackles up, and we're going to say a stronger
Speaker 1: no than you might ever imagine. But locking down your
Speaker 1: security by saying hey, Canada, let's work together on continental
Speaker 1: economic and physical security, You're going to find everyone in
Speaker 1: Canada saying yeah, we'll sign up to that. And then
Speaker 1: I think there's a second exit ramp, a second win
Speaker 1: win scenario that I believe Scott Bessen's confirmation as Secretary
Speaker 1: of the Treasury really opens up for the US and
Speaker 1: for Canada. Scott Bessant is an incredibly sophisticated global economic thinker.
Speaker 1: He is a man who has a very well worked
Speaker 1: out view of the global macro, not just environment, but
Speaker 1: the global macro system. And he is someone who's spent
Speaker 1: his career thinking about moments when that system changes. In fact,
Speaker 1: you could say that his investing strategy has been figure
Speaker 1: out where the imbalances are and invest there. The fact
Speaker 1: is the global economy today is run based on the
Speaker 1: US consumer. It is run based on incredibly strong US
Speaker 1: domestic demand. And what that is requiring is that you
Speaker 1: guys run just like eye popping fiscal deficits which at
Speaker 1: a certain point surely are going to become unsustainable. In
Speaker 1: the meantime, China has been running notwithstanding frequent protestations. This
Speaker 1: is going to change an economic system that is based
Speaker 1: on selling stuff to the world and not having strong
Speaker 1: domestic demand, and China over and over again promises and
Speaker 1: fails to have strong domestic demand in China. I think
Speaker 1: it is entirely possible that the historic role that Scott
Speaker 1: Bessant has signed up for is to be the guy
Speaker 1: who writes those global financial and trade imbalances a kind
Speaker 1: of Plaza Accords for our time. And Canada can be
Speaker 1: a valuable and intelligent partner for the US in the
Speaker 1: effort to rebalance the global economy. But we can't do
Speaker 1: it if you keep beating up on us. And like
Speaker 1: slapping us in the face.
Speaker 2: Coming up. Christia Freeland on her decision to resign from
Speaker 2: Prime Minister Trudeau's cabinet and how her views on tax
Speaker 2: policy have changed since President Trump won a second term.
Speaker 2: Do you feel that Canadians understand the gravity of this moment?
Speaker 2: You certainly know this Prime minister well, I've worked with
Speaker 2: them closely, and I wonder if you think that he
Speaker 2: and the government now is prepared to take the kind
Speaker 2: of hardline approach that you're advocating for here in the
Speaker 2: context of this campaign. Is you were read that the
Speaker 2: government is approaching with kind of a commensurate level of seriousness,
Speaker 2: and I guess aggressiveness might be the word.
Speaker 1: I am absolutely certain that Canadians understand how serious this is.
Speaker 1: Like I've been traveling around the country a lot. As
Speaker 1: you may have heard, we have a campaign for the
Speaker 1: leadership of the Liberal Party right now, So I've been
Speaker 1: traveling around a lot, and everywhere I go people come
Speaker 1: up to me on the street in you know, malls,
Speaker 1: on airplanes and airports, and the first thing every single
Speaker 1: person says is what are we going to do with
Speaker 1: President Trump? Be sure to tell them Canada is not
Speaker 1: for sale. Our sovereignty is not negotiable. You're going to
Speaker 1: see us saying, guys, we actually like you, let's keep
Speaker 1: a good thing going. But I think you're going to
Speaker 1: see a very very deep Canadian commitment to saying we
Speaker 1: are Canadian and we are not going to sacrifice one
Speaker 1: millimeter of our sovereignty, including our economic sovereignty.
Speaker 2: So that's the Canadian side rit large. How about the
Speaker 2: government's position. How do you feel like they're approaching this
Speaker 2: and is it sufficient enough in terms of it's aggressive
Speaker 2: this in the face of the threat from President Trump.
Speaker 1: What I'm trying to do now that I'm a leadership
Speaker 1: candidate and not in the government, is I would say,
Speaker 1: help to stiffen the national spine. And I've been laying
Speaker 1: out some very clear negotiating ideas that we need to
Speaker 1: put forward and I'm glad when I see them adopted
Speaker 1: by the government. I do have to say the premiers
Speaker 1: are playing a really important role. I'm in touch with
Speaker 1: many of them and that has been a very important
Speaker 1: part of Team Canada. And I also want to give
Speaker 1: a shout out to labor leaders and business leaders.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about the letter that you
Speaker 2: wrote resigning from your post. It had this kind of
Speaker 2: seismic effect, certainly within your party and government. We felt
Speaker 2: it in the States as well.
Speaker 1: That's rare for Canadian political event, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Did you know at the time it was going to
Speaker 2: have that kind of seismic effect that it did?
Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely not. No. I mean when I wrote my
Speaker 1: letter and published it, that was on a Monday, I
Speaker 1: assumed that on the Tuesday, Mark Kearney would be sworn
Speaker 1: in as Finance Minister, and I think that's what the
Speaker 1: Prime Minister assumed to.
Speaker 2: Something that was in that letter was an impression that
Speaker 2: you need to do more to keep your fiscal powder dry.
Speaker 2: As you look back on the last two fiscal years,
Speaker 2: do you regret not doing more to kind of shore
Speaker 2: up the fiscal position of this country.
Speaker 1: Well, as you know David visiting US from the United States,
Speaker 1: Canada is in an outstanding fiscal position compared to you guys.
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys are looking at deficits seven plus.
Speaker 1: We're looking at a deficit one in a bit and
Speaker 1: we have a triple A credit rating. Our debt to
Speaker 1: GDP ratio is the lowest in the G seven, hugely
Speaker 1: lower than yours. So the fundamental fiscal position of Canada
Speaker 1: is strong. What I did believe in the fall, and
Speaker 1: this conviction became stronger first with President Trump's selection and
Speaker 1: then with his twenty five percent tariff threat, was that
Speaker 1: we had to as a country turn all of our
Speaker 1: attention to that threat. We had to recognize that President
Speaker 1: Trump was not just blustering. I'm one of the people
Speaker 1: who takes him very seriously and sees him as a
Speaker 1: very smart guy who has a thought out plan. That
Speaker 1: is what I saw then, that is what I see now,
Speaker 1: and so it was very clear to me that as
Speaker 1: a government, you know, it had to be like heart
Speaker 1: and nerve and sinew like. Everything had to be focused
Speaker 1: on that and writing checks that would cost US six
Speaker 1: billion dollars as this you know train was coming down
Speaker 1: the track, to me, was irresponsible.
Speaker 2: You vote Mark harneyam Minette Ago and he's committed to
Speaker 2: bouncing the budget. I guess with running small deficits from
Speaker 2: time to time, are you prepared to also call for
Speaker 2: bounce budgets? And if so, on what timeline.
Speaker 1: I believe that we need to be fiscally responsible. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I believe that Canada's triple A credit rating is absolutely
Speaker 1: essential when it comes to you know where our fiscal
Speaker 1: position is. Let's see what happens on February first, because
Speaker 1: and in the weeks to come. I do think when
Speaker 1: we talk about the impact of tariffs on Canada, I
Speaker 1: am medium term, one thousand percent, one million percent, a
Speaker 1: google percent confident that Canada will that Canadians will stand
Speaker 1: up for Canada, that we will get through this, and
Speaker 1: we will get to a win win position with the US.
Speaker 1: To me, that is absolutely clear, because that's what the
Speaker 1: economic fundamentals say. But I am also not naive about
Speaker 1: how hard it's going to be along the way. This
Speaker 1: is going to be a very challenging economic situation for US.
Speaker 1: Tariffs will bring in revenues for sure, our counter tariffs
Speaker 1: will our retaliatory tariffs, and we need to use that
Speaker 1: money to support Canadian families, to support Canadian businesses, but
Speaker 1: it will be also an economic hit to Canada, and
Speaker 1: so I think we need to see where that goes
Speaker 1: before committing to any specific targets.
Speaker 2: I have a couple of questions about revenues, and the
Speaker 2: first has to do with the capital gains tax height
Speaker 2: that you introduced and supported. You've since come back on that.
Speaker 2: It's not something that you support putting in place now.
Speaker 2: I gather because of the context we're in, Donald Trum
Speaker 2: being re elected. The place gather christ Tariff's part of
Speaker 2: that was raising revenue. I gathered nineteen billion Canadian dollars
Speaker 2: over five years. How do you replace that if that
Speaker 2: doesn't come to pass.
Speaker 1: As I said about my views during the fall, I
Speaker 1: take President Trump really seriously, and I do believe we
Speaker 1: need to be building our policies given that new reality.
Speaker 1: I think as Canadians, by the way, we need to
Speaker 1: see some real opportunities in that new reality. So you know,
Speaker 1: there are some sort of hoary old chestnuts of Canadian
Speaker 1: public policy stuff that we all kind of know would
Speaker 1: be a good idea to do, but it's just so hard.
Speaker 1: So if you were a Canadian journalist, you would know
Speaker 1: inter provincial trade the holy grail of every single Canadian
Speaker 1: public policy thinker. Very easy to say it's a good idea,
Speaker 1: hard to do it to say a period, and easy
Speaker 1: to get the idea right. Like if another country is
Speaker 1: threatening trade measures against us, maybe a good place to
Speaker 1: start is, let's trade with each other for goodness sake.
Speaker 1: And so I think now, in the face of the
Speaker 1: US threat, it's a great opportunity to do that, and
Speaker 1: I think you're really seeing some national will around that.
Speaker 1: I think it's a great opportunity to say, guys, we
Speaker 1: have to stop getting in our own way. We have
Speaker 1: to make it easier to build stuff fast in Canada.
Speaker 1: We have to cut red tape and get big projects
Speaker 1: built because we're going to need it. So I do
Speaker 1: want to be clear that there are some opportunities, and
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of where are we going to
Speaker 1: find revenue. I'm not unveiling all of my platform here
Speaker 1: today with you, David, even though I am enjoying the
Speaker 1: conversation immensely, but we have some really good ideas that
Speaker 1: I look forward to sharing with Canadians.
Speaker 2: There's a fiscal question about your out face on that
Speaker 2: particular tax. I think there's a larger question about the
Speaker 2: way that you advocated for it in months past, so
Speaker 2: you kind of couched it in moral terms. You had
Speaker 2: a message to the wealthiest people in this country that
Speaker 2: this was something that they had to do on moral grounds.
Speaker 2: There shouldn't be hungry kids going to school. For instance.
Speaker 2: For somebody who listened to you talking about it in
Speaker 2: that way and sees you moving away from it. What
Speaker 2: do you say if they question your kind of commitment
Speaker 2: to political principle because.
Speaker 1: Of that, Income inequality and what Canadians might call a
Speaker 1: just society, a society where we take care of each other,
Speaker 1: has been a kind of central principle of my life
Speaker 1: and my thinking since I became a sentient human truly.
Speaker 1: Like I come from a small town in northern Alberta.
Speaker 1: It's really really cold. You're cold in Toronto today it
Speaker 1: gets down to forty below regularly in the winter. And
Speaker 1: Peace Country they are frontiersman. My family were pioneers, very
Speaker 1: proud of that, very tough, very entrepreneurial. But like the
Speaker 1: patron saint of the Peace Country, what people said about
Speaker 1: him was he was every man's friend and he never
Speaker 1: locked his cabin door. And that is a very powerful
Speaker 1: thing that I've known since I remember knowing words. And
Speaker 1: I do think we have to take care of each other.
Speaker 1: I wrote a book about income inequality and sort of
Speaker 1: the rise of this global plutocracy and the hollowing out
Speaker 1: of the middle class before I entered politics. I'm really
Speaker 1: proud of the things we did. I did in government
Speaker 1: to push against it. The Canada Child Benefit a huge
Speaker 1: measure that has lifted Canadian families, Canadian children out of poverty.
Speaker 1: I also know that today for Canada, the most significant
Speaker 1: econ fact and reality is that Donald Trump is president
Speaker 1: with a plan to change the world. And we don't
Speaker 1: need to be afraid of that. We need to have
Speaker 1: a plan to deal with it, and we need to
Speaker 1: recognize the magnitude of the challenge. You know, John Maynard
Speaker 1: Kines had this great line, when the facts change, I
Speaker 1: change my mind, sir, what do you do? And the
Speaker 1: difference between a United States with Joe Biden or Kamala
Speaker 1: Harris as president, both of them intended to raise the
Speaker 1: capital gains rate, versus a Donald Trump as president is
Speaker 1: huge for Canada. You know, we started off in the
Speaker 1: conversation talking about one of my core understandings about Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: and that is that one of his objectives is take
Speaker 1: all the world's money. You heard that in the Davos speech, right,
Speaker 1: He was like, guys, investor money in Canada. In the
Speaker 1: United States, it'll be great. Invest your money outside the
Speaker 1: United States, it will be terrible. So he wants to
Speaker 1: suck in all the world's investment. He wants to suck
Speaker 1: an investment by Canadian businesses, and for Canadians it's the
Speaker 1: easiest thing in the world to invest in the United States.
Speaker 1: So we right now have to fight. We have to
Speaker 1: fight for Canadian jobs, we have to fight for Canadian businesses,
Speaker 1: we have to fight for Canadian investment. And that does
Speaker 1: mean we have to change our policies. And I do
Speaker 1: that without any apology whatsoever. I do that because we
Speaker 1: have to put the national interest first.
Speaker 2: Coming up more of my exclusive interview with Christia Freeland.
Speaker 2: She talks about the importance of this moment for the
Speaker 2: Liberal Party and for Canada itself. Wrapping up here, let
Speaker 2: me ask you about the Liberal Party today and what
Speaker 2: it's going through, what this campaign represents. And I guess
Speaker 2: I'm bringing my bias to the table here. Thinking about
Speaker 2: what's happening within the Democratic Party in the United States
Speaker 2: after this election is a fair parallel as they think
Speaker 2: about who their base of support is, who they represent,
Speaker 2: how big a tent they have. Are you and you
Speaker 2: were party going through something similar similar undulations.
Speaker 1: That is such an interesting question. You're the first person
Speaker 1: who's asked me that question, and I'm glad you have,
Speaker 1: because I think about it a lot, and I do
Speaker 1: think for us as a party, having this leadership race
Speaker 1: is incredibly healthy. We are seeing a surge of new
Speaker 1: memberships in the Liberal Party, we are seeing a surge
Speaker 1: of interest. We're having conversations that we haven't had before.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I really believe we need
Speaker 1: to do, and I'll leave it to you to judge
Speaker 1: and your listeners whether Americans need to do it too,
Speaker 1: is where I think the Right has been effective in
Speaker 1: recent months and years is in finding ways to connect
Speaker 1: with its own grassroots supporters, in finding ways to make
Speaker 1: regular people feel that they were being listened to and
Speaker 1: that they were driving what the policies would be. I
Speaker 1: would say that our party had become less effective at that.
Speaker 1: I think inside our party we had allowed the grassroots
Speaker 1: to atrophy. As a government, we functioned in a very
Speaker 1: kind of star system, one man band, decisions taken right
Speaker 1: at that apex and flowing down. And that's not good
Speaker 1: for democracy. And you know, if I've been spending a
Speaker 1: lot of my time meeting with grassroots Liberal supporters and
Speaker 1: with Canadians who you might describe as liberal cure and
Speaker 1: the hardcore liberal supporters. What I've heard them say is
Speaker 1: if the only time you talk to us is when
Speaker 1: you want us to write a check or knock on
Speaker 1: a door or put up a lawn sign, don't be
Speaker 1: surprised if we're disengaged. So I see this moment, certainly
Speaker 1: for us here in the political center in Canada, in
Speaker 1: the Liberal Party, as an opportunity to, with a huge
Speaker 1: amount of energy and conviction, reinvent how we are working
Speaker 1: as a party, to really listen to Canadians, to listen
Speaker 1: to Liberals, to say to them you're the boss. You're
Speaker 1: the boss of the party, and to Canadians, you're the
Speaker 1: boss of the government. And these are kind of words
Speaker 1: that are easy to say. I think it's important to
Speaker 1: put in structures that make that the case, and so
Speaker 1: last week I put forward some very specifics on reform
Speaker 1: of our party. One of them, maybe the most important one,
Speaker 1: is you know, I don't know about you, David, but
Speaker 1: a way to understand who your boss is is to
Speaker 1: know who has the ability to fire you. And so
Speaker 1: what I have promised is if I am chosen as leader,
Speaker 1: one of the very first things I will do is
Speaker 1: say to the party membership, I want you to come
Speaker 1: up with a mechanism for a leadership review. I want
Speaker 1: you to have the right and the tools to fire me,
Speaker 1: and I can assure you when we give Liberal Party
Speaker 1: members that authority and that power, you will have a
Speaker 1: Liberal leader who is much much more responsive to the
Speaker 1: grassroots of the party. And you will have a stronger
Speaker 1: and better party. And you know what, you will make
Speaker 1: Canadian democracy better.
Speaker 2: Could term limits have solved this problem? Clearly that was
Speaker 2: something that was preventing the party from thinking about who
Speaker 2: would come next and when.
Speaker 1: We are a strong and vibrant parliamentary democracy. And I
Speaker 1: don't think grafting features from a US presidential system onto
Speaker 1: our own is really good idea. But no, no, but no.
Speaker 1: But where I think you're driving at I agree with,
Speaker 1: which is the leader cannot be the person who decides
Speaker 1: whether she or he continues in that role. We need
Speaker 1: to be sure the grassroots have much more authority than
Speaker 1: they have today. I think we need to be sure
Speaker 1: that caucus members have much more authority than they have today,
Speaker 1: which is how parliamentary democracies in the Westminster system work
Speaker 1: in other countries. So, and I do absolutely believe that
Speaker 1: it was wrong for the leader alone to be the
Speaker 1: person who decided whether he continued in government.
Speaker 2: Last question, how determined are these next few weeks going
Speaker 2: to be for Canada? Yes, in the context of this campaign,
Speaker 2: but as we're facing this, this very first deadline. In
Speaker 2: your letter you talked about the gravity of the moment,
Speaker 2: how do you see it in the context of history?
Speaker 1: Huge? You know, I think we are at a hinge
Speaker 1: moment for Canada and also for the world. I think
Speaker 1: this is a time when you know that period we
Speaker 1: had that remember the end of history? Do you remember
Speaker 1: that the end of history is now ended? And I
Speaker 1: would say even that rules based international order that we
Speaker 1: built so painstaking me after the Second World War, I
Speaker 1: think that is being shaken up. The kind of peak
Speaker 1: globalization we had with China's entry to the WTO, that
Speaker 1: is being shaken up. So, you know, the tectonic plates
Speaker 1: of the global political system and the global economy are
Speaker 1: shifting right now, and that matters for Canada. And at heart,
Speaker 1: the reason that I am running to be leader of
Speaker 1: the Liberal Party and the Prime Minister of Canada is
Speaker 1: I have a plan for how Canada cannot just survive
Speaker 1: this shifting of the plates. But absolutely thrive as these
Speaker 1: plates shift, thrive because the things we do at home,
Speaker 1: but also thrive because I have a real vision of
Speaker 1: how this reordering can happen in ways that are good
Speaker 1: for Canada and good for the United States. And I
Speaker 1: know that that is something we can work on together.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Thank you. This is the Big
Speaker 2: Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gurra. This episode was
Speaker 2: produced by Julia Press and David Fox. It was edited
Speaker 2: by David Derek d Cluet, Aaron Edwards, and our senior
Speaker 2: producer Naomi Shaven. It was mixed and sound designed by
Speaker 2: Alex Sagura and fact checked by Adriana Tapia. Our senior
Speaker 2: editor is Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is Nicole Beemster Boor.
Speaker 2: Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. If you liked
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Speaker 2: the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.