1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 2: Christia Freeland, Canada's former finance minister and deputy Prime Minister, 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 2: sent shockwaves around the world when she stepped down from 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's cabinet in December. She had been 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: seen as one of Trudeau's closest allies. In the way 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 2: that she resigned as shaking the government to its core. 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: Why did she do this? 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: She was his most powerful minister. In a fiery resignation letter, 9 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 2: Freeland blasted Trudeau for not doing enough to prepare for 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: the challenges of a second Trump term. Her resignation set 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 2: in motion a series of events that culminated in a 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 2: new leadership election. Trudeau is stepping down after nine years 13 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: in office. Now Freeland is running to replace him to 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: be the next leader of the Liberal Party, and her 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: pitch to Canadians is there is no candidate better equipped 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 2: to deal with Donald Trump, who was threatened to impose 17 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: a twenty five percent tariff on Canadian goods on feb first. 18 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 2: I sat down with Freeland on Tuesday in Toronto for 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: an exclusive interview. 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: Today for Canada, the most significant economic fact and reality 21 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump is president with a plan to 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: change the world, and we don't need to be afraid 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: of that. We need to have a plan to deal 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: with it, and we need to recognize the magnitude of 25 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: the challenge. 26 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 2: I'm David Gerra, and this is the Big Take from 27 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: Bloomberg News Today. On the show, my interview with Christia Freeland, 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: Canada's former finance minister, who's calling for a proactive response 29 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 2: to Trump's proposed tariffs, and she makes her case to 30 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: be Canada's next leader. We talk about Trump's second term 31 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: and what she sees on the horizon for one of 32 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: the US's closest allies. This interview has been lightly edited 33 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: and condensed for clarity. The full interview is available on 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot com and on the Bloomberg Terminal. Thank you 35 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: very much for doing this, appreciated. 36 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: It is great to be with you, David. Thank you 37 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: for coming to Toronto. I hope you're not freezing today. 38 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: It was very cold. The wind was fierce last night 39 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 2: when we got here. 40 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: That's why Canadians are so tough. That winter trains us. 41 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: Let's get right to it and if President Trump follows 42 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: through on this threat to impose twenty five percent tariff 43 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: across the board on Canadian goods. How should Canada respond? 44 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: Well, I think we should start responding today. I think 45 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: that we should publish for consultation a retaliation list. I 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: think it should be massive, right, it should be two 47 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: hundred billion. That's not saying that we retaliate at two 48 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: hundred billion, but giving us like a menu, like a 49 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 1: s'morgus board of choices. And we need to publish it 50 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: now because when President Trump says America first, I believe him, 51 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: and I believe that he doesn't care that much if 52 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: Canadian politicians are jumping around banging our fists on the table, 53 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: et cetera. But he cares about Americans. And I want 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: Wisconsin dairy farmers to see themselves on that list and 55 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: to be calling the White House and to be saying, 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: mister President, we elected you, but now it's going to 57 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: be terrible. We're not going to be able to sell 58 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: stuff to Canada. I want Michigan blue collar workers who 59 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: make washing machines in Michigan to see their washing machines 60 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: on the list and to call at the White House 61 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: and say, mister President, what the heck here? We love 62 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: selling stuff to Canada. 63 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 2: Do not do this. 64 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: And the thing that I think can sometimes be missed. 65 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: I think, if you will permit me, David, to put 66 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: myself in the mind of Americans, I think you guys 67 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: don't think about Canada very much. I think when you 68 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: think about Canada, maybe you think about hockey. Maybe you 69 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: think we're quite nice and we say please and thank you, 70 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: and probably true, probably we say sorry a little more 71 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: than you guys would. And I just don't think you 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: think of us as major players, and that is fine 73 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: with us. But what you miss in that calculation about 74 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: Canada is uniquely in the whole world, we have economic 75 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: leverage over you. You guys are not a big trading nation, 76 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: but insofar as you export stuff, you sell it to 77 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: your Canadian pals. We are a larger market for the 78 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: United States than China, Japan, the UK, and France combined. 79 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: So actually we do matter for you. And one thing 80 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: that I love about Americans is you guys have a 81 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: true entrepreneurial spirit and commercial spirit. You are the guys 82 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: who say the customer is always right. Well, guess what, 83 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: We're your main customer. 84 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 2: A criticism I hear of your approach is by doing this, 85 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: by up with that menu or that long list. You're 86 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: going to further raise the hackles of President Trump. You're 87 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,559 Speaker 2: kind of putting more of a target on your back. 88 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: What do you say to those critics? Who are you? 89 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: Then? You know? I have a lot of respect for 90 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: President Trump. I think he has been throughout his career underestimated. 91 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: I think he is a really smart guy. And one 92 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: of the things that I've observed is I think he's 93 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: going to be smarter in this administration than he was 94 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: in the first one. Someone I have good relations This 95 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: may surprise you, David, with a lot of people close 96 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: to the president. One of them actually was in my 97 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: house here in Toronto for supper a few weeks. Again, 98 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: this is I'm not going to tell you, no cars, 99 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: I'm not going to tell you he won't come back 100 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: for supper, right, But he said, you know, the President 101 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: has spent since the election weeks and weeks and weeks 102 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: hanging out with really smart people, and he has some 103 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: really good and clear ideas. So I take the President 104 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: very very seriously as a smart guy actually with a 105 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: clear worldview. I also observe his negotiating style and what 106 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: I observe, which I think everybody sees is this is 107 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: not a guy for whom weakness is attractive. I would 108 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: say for President Trump, weakness is a provocation. I think 109 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: capitulation is not a negotiating strategy with him. This person 110 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: close to the President said to me, this was before 111 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: the inauguration. He said, Trump thinks it's just great. He's 112 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: going around yelling at the world, threatening the world, and 113 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: countries are just tripping over themselves to like preconcede. They're 114 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: negotiating with themselves. He's not even president, and they're offering 115 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: him a million things. And the President, quite rightly, by 116 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: the way, thinks this is great. He hasn't done a 117 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: single thing and the world is tripping over itself to 118 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: give him stuff. Now, I truly believe that Canada and 119 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: the United States today have a really fabulous mutually beneficial 120 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: win win productive relationship, and I think we need to 121 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: and should have that in the future. But I think 122 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: the way you get there generally in life, but particularly 123 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: with this president is to say to him, you know what, really, 124 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: pushing us around is not a good idea. 125 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: Can I ask you what maybe a dumb sounding question, 126 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: and that. 127 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: Is there are no dumb questions, thank you? 128 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: What does President Trump want here? We are just a 129 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: few days away from this February first deadline that he's 130 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: put in place. He's talked a lot about traffic of drugs, 131 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: He's talked about immigration. Do you have a clear sense 132 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 2: of what would have to happen for him to forego 133 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: putting those tariffs in place? 134 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: I am not going to presume to know what President 135 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: Trump wants. I think that that is up to him 136 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: and the very smart people around around him to say. 137 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: But based on past behavior, based on what we're seeing, 138 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: I think President Trump is seeking to accomplish three things. 139 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: First of all, he would just like Canada to negotiate 140 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: with itself as much as possible, and he'd like us 141 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: to anti up tons of stuff. So that's number one. 142 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: I think Number two, what President Trump is trying to do, 143 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: quite intentionally is create uncertainty for investors in every country 144 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: other than the United States. He wants to make investors 145 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: when they're thinking about where do you put that the 146 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: next dollar, to think we have no idea what President 147 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: Trump is going to do. We know he wants us 148 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: to invest in the US. We don't know what he's 149 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: going to do to any other country. So what the heck, 150 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: let's put our money in the United States, And that 151 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 1: is not a dumb strategy, right, you know, just by 152 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: saying a few things on social media, you automatically suck 153 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: capital into the United States. I think the third thing 154 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: that the President wants to do is uncle je Les 155 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: as we would say here, And I think that as 156 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: Canadians we think about Canada US very much. But I 157 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: know Americans, you guys don't wake up in the morning 158 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: and think, hey, how's our relationship with the Canadians going? 159 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: And President Trump, I do think, has clearly elaborated and 160 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: sophisticated worldview of what he wants to do, and it 161 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: seems pretty clear to me that he has come to 162 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: the conclusion that if he can show the rest of 163 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: the world how mean and tough he can be with 164 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: his closest partners and allies, how much he's prepared to 165 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: beat up on those really nice Canadians who throughout history 166 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 1: have been great partners for the US. How do you 167 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: think that's going to make the Chinese feel? So I 168 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: think there's that calculation as well, But I do want 169 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: to offer a positive opportunity that I think is in 170 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,599 Speaker 1: the President's mind as well. Maybe two positive opportunities to 171 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: positive exit ramps. The first one is I do think 172 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: the President is very concerned about US security security for 173 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: the USA economic security, but also national security, and in 174 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: that context, kind of locking down your neighbors, locking down 175 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: your continent makes a lot of sense. Locking down your 176 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: continent by saying, hey, Canadians be the fifty first state. 177 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: I really want to assure you, my American friends and neighbors, 178 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: it's not going to work. That is going to get 179 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 1: our hackles up, and we're going to say a stronger 180 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: no than you might ever imagine. But locking down your 181 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: security by saying hey, Canada, let's work together on continental 182 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: economic and physical security, You're going to find everyone in 183 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: Canada saying yeah, we'll sign up to that. And then 184 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: I think there's a second exit ramp, a second win 185 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:30,719 Speaker 1: win scenario that I believe Scott Bessen's confirmation as Secretary 186 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: of the Treasury really opens up for the US and 187 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: for Canada. Scott Bessant is an incredibly sophisticated global economic thinker. 188 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: He is a man who has a very well worked 189 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: out view of the global macro, not just environment, but 190 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: the global macro system. And he is someone who's spent 191 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: his career thinking about moments when that system changes. In fact, 192 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: you could say that his investing strategy has been figure 193 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: out where the imbalances are and invest there. The fact 194 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: is the global economy today is run based on the 195 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 1: US consumer. It is run based on incredibly strong US 196 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: domestic demand. And what that is requiring is that you 197 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: guys run just like eye popping fiscal deficits which at 198 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: a certain point surely are going to become unsustainable. In 199 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: the meantime, China has been running notwithstanding frequent protestations. This 200 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: is going to change an economic system that is based 201 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: on selling stuff to the world and not having strong 202 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: domestic demand, and China over and over again promises and 203 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: fails to have strong domestic demand in China. I think 204 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: it is entirely possible that the historic role that Scott 205 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: Bessant has signed up for is to be the guy 206 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: who writes those global financial and trade imbalances a kind 207 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: of Plaza Accords for our time. And Canada can be 208 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: a valuable and intelligent partner for the US in the 209 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: effort to rebalance the global economy. But we can't do 210 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: it if you keep beating up on us. And like 211 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 1: slapping us in the face. 212 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: Coming up. Christia Freeland on her decision to resign from 213 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Trudeau's cabinet and how her views on tax 214 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 2: policy have changed since President Trump won a second term. 215 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 2: Do you feel that Canadians understand the gravity of this moment? 216 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 2: You certainly know this Prime minister well, I've worked with 217 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 2: them closely, and I wonder if you think that he 218 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: and the government now is prepared to take the kind 219 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: of hardline approach that you're advocating for here in the 220 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 2: context of this campaign. Is you were read that the 221 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: government is approaching with kind of a commensurate level of seriousness, 222 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: and I guess aggressiveness might be the word. 223 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: I am absolutely certain that Canadians understand how serious this is. 224 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: Like I've been traveling around the country a lot. As 225 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: you may have heard, we have a campaign for the 226 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: leadership of the Liberal Party right now, So I've been 227 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: traveling around a lot, and everywhere I go people come 228 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: up to me on the street in you know, malls, 229 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: on airplanes and airports, and the first thing every single 230 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: person says is what are we going to do with 231 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: President Trump? Be sure to tell them Canada is not 232 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: for sale. Our sovereignty is not negotiable. You're going to 233 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: see us saying, guys, we actually like you, let's keep 234 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: a good thing going. But I think you're going to 235 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: see a very very deep Canadian commitment to saying we 236 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: are Canadian and we are not going to sacrifice one 237 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: millimeter of our sovereignty, including our economic sovereignty. 238 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: So that's the Canadian side rit large. How about the 239 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: government's position. How do you feel like they're approaching this 240 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: and is it sufficient enough in terms of it's aggressive 241 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: this in the face of the threat from President Trump. 242 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: What I'm trying to do now that I'm a leadership 243 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: candidate and not in the government, is I would say, 244 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: help to stiffen the national spine. And I've been laying 245 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: out some very clear negotiating ideas that we need to 246 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: put forward and I'm glad when I see them adopted 247 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: by the government. I do have to say the premiers 248 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: are playing a really important role. I'm in touch with 249 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: many of them and that has been a very important 250 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: part of Team Canada. And I also want to give 251 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: a shout out to labor leaders and business leaders. 252 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about the letter that you 253 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 2: wrote resigning from your post. It had this kind of 254 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: seismic effect, certainly within your party and government. We felt 255 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: it in the States as well. 256 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: That's rare for Canadian political event, isn't it. 257 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: Did you know at the time it was going to 258 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: have that kind of seismic effect that it did? 259 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: Oh? Absolutely not. No. I mean when I wrote my 260 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: letter and published it, that was on a Monday, I 261 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: assumed that on the Tuesday, Mark Kearney would be sworn 262 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: in as Finance Minister, and I think that's what the 263 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: Prime Minister assumed to. 264 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 2: Something that was in that letter was an impression that 265 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: you need to do more to keep your fiscal powder dry. 266 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: As you look back on the last two fiscal years, 267 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 2: do you regret not doing more to kind of shore 268 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 2: up the fiscal position of this country. 269 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: Well, as you know David visiting US from the United States, 270 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: Canada is in an outstanding fiscal position compared to you guys. 271 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you guys are looking at deficits seven plus. 272 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: We're looking at a deficit one in a bit and 273 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: we have a triple A credit rating. Our debt to 274 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: GDP ratio is the lowest in the G seven, hugely 275 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: lower than yours. So the fundamental fiscal position of Canada 276 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: is strong. What I did believe in the fall, and 277 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: this conviction became stronger first with President Trump's selection and 278 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: then with his twenty five percent tariff threat, was that 279 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: we had to as a country turn all of our 280 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: attention to that threat. We had to recognize that President 281 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: Trump was not just blustering. I'm one of the people 282 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 1: who takes him very seriously and sees him as a 283 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: very smart guy who has a thought out plan. That 284 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: is what I saw then, that is what I see now, 285 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: and so it was very clear to me that as 286 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: a government, you know, it had to be like heart 287 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: and nerve and sinew like. Everything had to be focused 288 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: on that and writing checks that would cost US six 289 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: billion dollars as this you know train was coming down 290 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: the track, to me, was irresponsible. 291 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 2: You vote Mark harneyam Minette Ago and he's committed to 292 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 2: bouncing the budget. I guess with running small deficits from 293 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: time to time, are you prepared to also call for 294 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: bounce budgets? And if so, on what timeline. 295 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: I believe that we need to be fiscally responsible. Absolutely. 296 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: I believe that Canada's triple A credit rating is absolutely 297 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: essential when it comes to you know where our fiscal 298 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: position is. Let's see what happens on February first, because 299 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: and in the weeks to come. I do think when 300 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: we talk about the impact of tariffs on Canada, I 301 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: am medium term, one thousand percent, one million percent, a 302 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: google percent confident that Canada will that Canadians will stand 303 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: up for Canada, that we will get through this, and 304 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: we will get to a win win position with the US. 305 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: To me, that is absolutely clear, because that's what the 306 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: economic fundamentals say. But I am also not naive about 307 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: how hard it's going to be along the way. This 308 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: is going to be a very challenging economic situation for US. 309 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: Tariffs will bring in revenues for sure, our counter tariffs 310 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: will our retaliatory tariffs, and we need to use that 311 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: money to support Canadian families, to support Canadian businesses, but 312 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: it will be also an economic hit to Canada, and 313 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: so I think we need to see where that goes 314 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: before committing to any specific targets. 315 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 2: I have a couple of questions about revenues, and the 316 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: first has to do with the capital gains tax height 317 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 2: that you introduced and supported. You've since come back on that. 318 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 2: It's not something that you support putting in place now. 319 00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 2: I gather because of the context we're in, Donald Trum 320 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 2: being re elected. The place gather christ Tariff's part of 321 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 2: that was raising revenue. I gathered nineteen billion Canadian dollars 322 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,719 Speaker 2: over five years. How do you replace that if that 323 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 2: doesn't come to pass. 324 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: As I said about my views during the fall, I 325 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: take President Trump really seriously, and I do believe we 326 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: need to be building our policies given that new reality. 327 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: I think as Canadians, by the way, we need to 328 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: see some real opportunities in that new reality. So you know, 329 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: there are some sort of hoary old chestnuts of Canadian 330 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: public policy stuff that we all kind of know would 331 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: be a good idea to do, but it's just so hard. 332 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 1: So if you were a Canadian journalist, you would know 333 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: inter provincial trade the holy grail of every single Canadian 334 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: public policy thinker. Very easy to say it's a good idea, 335 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: hard to do it to say a period, and easy 336 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 1: to get the idea right. Like if another country is 337 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: threatening trade measures against us, maybe a good place to 338 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: start is, let's trade with each other for goodness sake. 339 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: And so I think now, in the face of the 340 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: US threat, it's a great opportunity to do that, and 341 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: I think you're really seeing some national will around that. 342 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: I think it's a great opportunity to say, guys, we 343 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: have to stop getting in our own way. We have 344 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: to make it easier to build stuff fast in Canada. 345 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: We have to cut red tape and get big projects 346 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: built because we're going to need it. So I do 347 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: want to be clear that there are some opportunities, and 348 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of where are we going to 349 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: find revenue. I'm not unveiling all of my platform here 350 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: today with you, David, even though I am enjoying the 351 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: conversation immensely, but we have some really good ideas that 352 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: I look forward to sharing with Canadians. 353 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 2: There's a fiscal question about your out face on that 354 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: particular tax. I think there's a larger question about the 355 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 2: way that you advocated for it in months past, so 356 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: you kind of couched it in moral terms. You had 357 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: a message to the wealthiest people in this country that 358 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 2: this was something that they had to do on moral grounds. 359 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: There shouldn't be hungry kids going to school. For instance. 360 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 2: For somebody who listened to you talking about it in 361 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: that way and sees you moving away from it. What 362 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: do you say if they question your kind of commitment 363 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: to political principle because. 364 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: Of that, Income inequality and what Canadians might call a 365 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: just society, a society where we take care of each other, 366 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: has been a kind of central principle of my life 367 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: and my thinking since I became a sentient human truly. 368 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: Like I come from a small town in northern Alberta. 369 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 1: It's really really cold. You're cold in Toronto today it 370 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: gets down to forty below regularly in the winter. And 371 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: Peace Country they are frontiersman. My family were pioneers, very 372 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: proud of that, very tough, very entrepreneurial. But like the 373 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: patron saint of the Peace Country, what people said about 374 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: him was he was every man's friend and he never 375 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: locked his cabin door. And that is a very powerful 376 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: thing that I've known since I remember knowing words. And 377 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: I do think we have to take care of each other. 378 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: I wrote a book about income inequality and sort of 379 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: the rise of this global plutocracy and the hollowing out 380 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: of the middle class before I entered politics. I'm really 381 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: proud of the things we did. I did in government 382 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: to push against it. The Canada Child Benefit a huge 383 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: measure that has lifted Canadian families, Canadian children out of poverty. 384 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: I also know that today for Canada, the most significant 385 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: econ fact and reality is that Donald Trump is president 386 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: with a plan to change the world. And we don't 387 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: need to be afraid of that. We need to have 388 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: a plan to deal with it, and we need to 389 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: recognize the magnitude of the challenge. You know, John Maynard 390 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: Kines had this great line, when the facts change, I 391 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: change my mind, sir, what do you do? And the 392 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: difference between a United States with Joe Biden or Kamala 393 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: Harris as president, both of them intended to raise the 394 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: capital gains rate, versus a Donald Trump as president is 395 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 1: huge for Canada. You know, we started off in the 396 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: conversation talking about one of my core understandings about Donald Trump, 397 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: and that is that one of his objectives is take 398 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: all the world's money. You heard that in the Davos speech, right, 399 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: He was like, guys, investor money in Canada. In the 400 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: United States, it'll be great. Invest your money outside the 401 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: United States, it will be terrible. So he wants to 402 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: suck in all the world's investment. He wants to suck 403 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: an investment by Canadian businesses, and for Canadians it's the 404 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: easiest thing in the world to invest in the United States. 405 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: So we right now have to fight. We have to 406 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: fight for Canadian jobs, we have to fight for Canadian businesses, 407 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: we have to fight for Canadian investment. And that does 408 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: mean we have to change our policies. And I do 409 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: that without any apology whatsoever. I do that because we 410 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: have to put the national interest first. 411 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 2: Coming up more of my exclusive interview with Christia Freeland. 412 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 2: She talks about the importance of this moment for the 413 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 2: Liberal Party and for Canada itself. Wrapping up here, let 414 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 2: me ask you about the Liberal Party today and what 415 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: it's going through, what this campaign represents. And I guess 416 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 2: I'm bringing my bias to the table here. Thinking about 417 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: what's happening within the Democratic Party in the United States 418 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 2: after this election is a fair parallel as they think 419 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: about who their base of support is, who they represent, 420 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: how big a tent they have. Are you and you 421 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: were party going through something similar similar undulations. 422 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: That is such an interesting question. You're the first person 423 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: who's asked me that question, and I'm glad you have, 424 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: because I think about it a lot, and I do 425 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: think for us as a party, having this leadership race 426 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: is incredibly healthy. We are seeing a surge of new 427 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: memberships in the Liberal Party, we are seeing a surge 428 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 1: of interest. We're having conversations that we haven't had before. 429 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: One of the things that I really believe we need 430 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: to do, and I'll leave it to you to judge 431 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: and your listeners whether Americans need to do it too, 432 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: is where I think the Right has been effective in 433 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: recent months and years is in finding ways to connect 434 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: with its own grassroots supporters, in finding ways to make 435 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: regular people feel that they were being listened to and 436 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: that they were driving what the policies would be. I 437 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: would say that our party had become less effective at that. 438 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: I think inside our party we had allowed the grassroots 439 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: to atrophy. As a government, we functioned in a very 440 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: kind of star system, one man band, decisions taken right 441 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: at that apex and flowing down. And that's not good 442 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 1: for democracy. And you know, if I've been spending a 443 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: lot of my time meeting with grassroots Liberal supporters and 444 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: with Canadians who you might describe as liberal cure and 445 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: the hardcore liberal supporters. What I've heard them say is 446 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: if the only time you talk to us is when 447 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: you want us to write a check or knock on 448 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: a door or put up a lawn sign, don't be 449 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: surprised if we're disengaged. So I see this moment, certainly 450 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: for us here in the political center in Canada, in 451 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: the Liberal Party, as an opportunity to, with a huge 452 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: amount of energy and conviction, reinvent how we are working 453 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: as a party, to really listen to Canadians, to listen 454 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: to Liberals, to say to them you're the boss. You're 455 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: the boss of the party, and to Canadians, you're the 456 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: boss of the government. And these are kind of words 457 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: that are easy to say. I think it's important to 458 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 1: put in structures that make that the case, and so 459 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: last week I put forward some very specifics on reform 460 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: of our party. One of them, maybe the most important one, 461 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: is you know, I don't know about you, David, but 462 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: a way to understand who your boss is is to 463 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: know who has the ability to fire you. And so 464 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: what I have promised is if I am chosen as leader, 465 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: one of the very first things I will do is 466 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: say to the party membership, I want you to come 467 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: up with a mechanism for a leadership review. I want 468 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: you to have the right and the tools to fire me, 469 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: and I can assure you when we give Liberal Party 470 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: members that authority and that power, you will have a 471 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: Liberal leader who is much much more responsive to the 472 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: grassroots of the party. And you will have a stronger 473 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: and better party. And you know what, you will make 474 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: Canadian democracy better. 475 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: Could term limits have solved this problem? Clearly that was 476 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 2: something that was preventing the party from thinking about who 477 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 2: would come next and when. 478 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: We are a strong and vibrant parliamentary democracy. And I 479 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: don't think grafting features from a US presidential system onto 480 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: our own is really good idea. But no, no, but no. 481 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: But where I think you're driving at I agree with, 482 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: which is the leader cannot be the person who decides 483 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: whether she or he continues in that role. We need 484 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: to be sure the grassroots have much more authority than 485 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: they have today. I think we need to be sure 486 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,959 Speaker 1: that caucus members have much more authority than they have today, 487 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: which is how parliamentary democracies in the Westminster system work 488 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: in other countries. So, and I do absolutely believe that 489 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: it was wrong for the leader alone to be the 490 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: person who decided whether he continued in government. 491 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: Last question, how determined are these next few weeks going 492 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: to be for Canada? Yes, in the context of this campaign, 493 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: but as we're facing this, this very first deadline. In 494 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: your letter you talked about the gravity of the moment, 495 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: how do you see it in the context of history? 496 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 1: Huge? You know, I think we are at a hinge 497 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: moment for Canada and also for the world. I think 498 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: this is a time when you know that period we 499 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: had that remember the end of history? Do you remember 500 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: that the end of history is now ended? And I 501 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: would say even that rules based international order that we 502 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: built so painstaking me after the Second World War, I 503 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: think that is being shaken up. The kind of peak 504 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: globalization we had with China's entry to the WTO, that 505 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: is being shaken up. So, you know, the tectonic plates 506 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: of the global political system and the global economy are 507 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: shifting right now, and that matters for Canada. And at heart, 508 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: the reason that I am running to be leader of 509 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: the Liberal Party and the Prime Minister of Canada is 510 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: I have a plan for how Canada cannot just survive 511 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: this shifting of the plates. But absolutely thrive as these 512 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: plates shift, thrive because the things we do at home, 513 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: but also thrive because I have a real vision of 514 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: how this reordering can happen in ways that are good 515 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,479 Speaker 1: for Canada and good for the United States. And I 516 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: know that that is something we can work on together. 517 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Thank you. This is the Big 518 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 2: Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gurra. This episode was 519 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: produced by Julia Press and David Fox. It was edited 520 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,240 Speaker 2: by David Derek d Cluet, Aaron Edwards, and our senior 521 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: producer Naomi Shaven. It was mixed and sound designed by 522 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: Alex Sagura and fact checked by Adriana Tapia. Our senior 523 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 2: editor is Elizabeth Ponso. Our executive producer is Nicole Beemster Boor. 524 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. If you liked 525 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: this episode, make sure to subscribe and review The Big 526 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps people find 527 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.