Speaker 1: Hey, folks, it is Sunday, February first, and are you
Speaker 1: an introvert or an extrovert? You might be neither because
Speaker 1: there is a new personality type that could possibly help
Speaker 1: you understand yourself or your partner better. And with that,
Speaker 1: welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ, an episode
Speaker 1: in which our relationship is about to be improved significantly.
Speaker 1: Because you have been so excited about this damn story.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about it. Let me get that
Speaker 1: out of the way. I don't even know what this
Speaker 1: new personality type is. Please explain.
Speaker 2: You're such an outrovert. Oh, it's a what otrovert?
Speaker 1: That sounds That doesn't sound rightt otro How do you
Speaker 1: spell otro.
Speaker 2: Otro v e r t otrovert?
Speaker 1: Is it fair to say, just based on what I'm hearing?
Speaker 1: Is it in the middle of introvert extrovert or on
Speaker 1: the one of the ends?
Speaker 2: So it combines both, but it's its own. It's in
Speaker 2: its own space because otro is Spanish for other and
Speaker 2: otrovert means one who is facing a different direction. You
Speaker 2: don't go with the group O trovert O trovert. You
Speaker 2: often call yourself a disruptor. Do you not.
Speaker 1: No, I'm never a disruptor. I sit quietly in the corner.
Speaker 1: I'm no, no, no, no. I Okay, here's the thing
Speaker 1: that's true.
Speaker 2: Everything you're saying actually reads with what we will explain.
Speaker 1: What did you just say? I what do you say?
Speaker 1: I say, I'm always disruptor?
Speaker 2: I'm I'm the disruptor? Why am I always the disruptor?
Speaker 2: Meaning you don't think like the rest of the group.
Speaker 1: Okay, but oftentimes I say that because the rest of
Speaker 1: the group is white, and I'm in a newsroom and
Speaker 1: you're trying to offer an opinion that all of them
Speaker 1: agree on, and I'm sitting over here with a different
Speaker 1: perspective based on my experience, and yes, and to that
Speaker 1: degree and other ways as well. The group wants to do.
Speaker 2: This, Okay, so listen, keep your mind open.
Speaker 1: But this came a mind open.
Speaker 2: This has just my jaw has dropped researching this, and
Speaker 2: I feel like I understand you. I actually feel like
Speaker 2: something clicked for me reading this.
Speaker 1: And we have known each other over ten years, we
Speaker 1: have been best friends, and now we are in wedded
Speaker 1: bliss and you're telling me all it took was a
Speaker 1: damn news article.
Speaker 2: I'm telling you that's what it took. This is helping. Okay,
Speaker 2: So you and I and I think everyone listening. Most
Speaker 2: of us have had to take a personality test for
Speaker 2: either a job interview. That's when I took my first one,
Speaker 2: or sometimes just for fun. You see it online, and
Speaker 2: so you're told in these personality tests whether or not
Speaker 2: you're an extrovert or an introvert. I get extrovert every time.
Speaker 2: I know that's shocking to so many people. And what
Speaker 2: do you always end up with?
Speaker 1: I remember us doing one in an episode. It was
Speaker 1: an introvert exturaly, it was something else.
Speaker 2: It's this think is the squib myers. But you got introvert?
Speaker 1: Okay, you you yes, but it's weird. Nobody thinks I
Speaker 1: am because I'm in front of a camera. I'm out there,
Speaker 1: out of that.
Speaker 2: But not so wait for it. So this term outrovert,
Speaker 2: by the way, I want to give credit where credit
Speaker 2: is due, was recently coined by doctor Rami Kaminski. He
Speaker 2: wrote a book this past year, The Gift of Not Belonging,
Speaker 2: and he's a psychologist. He's got all these initials after
Speaker 2: his name, and he went into this because he always
Speaker 2: felt like an outsider.
Speaker 1: So what you're saying to me is a new concept.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, it is a new concept, but it has
Speaker 2: now gotten a lot of attention because it has resonated.
Speaker 2: It has resonated with people who now identify like this
Speaker 2: and people who love folks. So in this episode, we'll
Speaker 2: talk about what it is to be an outrovert, and
Speaker 2: then we'll talk about literally advice they give people who
Speaker 2: love outroverts. It's so fascinating. Okay. So outroverts have a
Speaker 2: unique relational style. They lean towards empathy and friendliness. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: that's you, babe. Yet their sense of being out of
Speaker 2: place and the dissonance between looking and acting like an
Speaker 2: insider while feeling like an outsider is tiring. It leads
Speaker 2: them to withdraw from some groups, and they prefer one
Speaker 2: on one relationships because and they avoid unnecessary social obligations.
Speaker 2: That is you would you not agree?
Speaker 1: Uh? You said avoid unnecessary I'd avoid the necessary ones.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll skip out on so yes.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so this is also you. The difference
Speaker 2: is that outroverts are more comfortable and skilled in social environments,
Speaker 2: especially when those settings require leadership like a company party
Speaker 2: or managing a birthday party. You are very good in
Speaker 2: those settings. You know how to lead a group, you
Speaker 2: know how to be social in specific settings, and you
Speaker 2: do it well. You're very charismatic.
Speaker 1: I missed something. Can you start that sensati again?
Speaker 2: Uh, It says. The difference is that outroverts are often
Speaker 2: more comfortable in skilled and skilled in social environments, especially
Speaker 2: when those settings require expression of leadership.
Speaker 1: So we're good at doing something even though we don't
Speaker 1: like being in the midst and doing it.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yes, okay. So outrefferts are not antisocial, They're
Speaker 2: not disengaged. They are often extremely observant, attuned, and sensitive
Speaker 2: to social dynamics, but it can leave them feeling as
Speaker 2: if they're always standing a step back. They can want
Speaker 2: deep genuine connection while also feeling chronically unseen, misunderstood, or
Speaker 2: dismissed in social groups.
Speaker 1: I don't ever feel that okay in social groups. Right.
Speaker 1: This is different from in social group. Say that last
Speaker 1: sness again again, folks, I am learning this as you
Speaker 1: all are, so give me that last sentence again.
Speaker 2: They can want deep genuine connection while also feeling chronically unseen, misunderstood,
Speaker 2: or dismissed in group settings. I think you have expressed
Speaker 2: that to me.
Speaker 1: I again, I'm thinking of a work setting. In a
Speaker 1: social setting, I never feel that, and a social set
Speaker 1: something I always feel like folks are trying to drag
Speaker 1: me into things I don't want you to do.
Speaker 2: Okay, that we'll address that. This is so good. Okay,
Speaker 2: here's another thing. You're gonna laugh out loud more. Here's
Speaker 2: some more. They give a lot of examples, and I've
Speaker 2: read several different articles. This is so interesting on here's
Speaker 2: some info on whether or not you may be an
Speaker 2: an utrovert. Sorry, they are not joiners. They don't join
Speaker 2: book clubs, spin classes, pta meetings, charity boards, group projects,
Speaker 2: anything that thrives on one mind steering the collective. Utroverts
Speaker 2: will not join. It is not in them.
Speaker 1: One mind steering the collective. That's why I don't like
Speaker 1: to go on vacation with groups. So you know, I refuse.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I like Sabine, and that's it because I can
Speaker 1: tell her what to do. I don't.
Speaker 2: That's the okay, So you're coming around now to the
Speaker 2: ultrovert thing. They also say that outroverts don't understand the
Speaker 2: logic of sacrificing sacrificing a differentiated mind just to conform
Speaker 2: to the hive. To them, that surrender of individuality is
Speaker 2: the real heresy. In fact, they make a game of
Speaker 2: staying at the freight edges of social groups and communal
Speaker 2: thinking because they want to avoid the hive mind. They
Speaker 2: do not understand that, but they can count close friends
Speaker 2: on one hand.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's probably pretty true for me. Then the hive
Speaker 1: mind thing, that's a difficult thing for me. When you
Speaker 1: see an entire group doing something that it will impact you,
Speaker 1: that'll be wrong. We've just had this experience recently, and
Speaker 1: that happens all the time. I need to disrupt this
Speaker 1: because we're going to suffer for it in a month,
Speaker 1: a year, or two years. But then I just get
Speaker 1: exhausted and say, fuck it, y'all do your thing. I
Speaker 1: do that.
Speaker 2: Also, hearing you say that, I've never fully understood it.
Speaker 2: And yes, we can talk about it on racial issues
Speaker 2: and racial lines, and that makes sense to me, but
Speaker 2: this takes it to a whole other level. I can't
Speaker 2: wait to read to you this next take. This is
Speaker 2: from a therapist, and he also now says, I, after
Speaker 2: reading this research, I am an outrovert and So here's
Speaker 2: what he said, and I want to see if this
Speaker 2: resonates with you in anyone listening outrovert's strength lies in
Speaker 2: refusing the gravitational pull of the group, even when it
Speaker 2: costs them. He calls outraverse, meek rebels. It's never our
Speaker 2: intention to rock the boat, but what must be done
Speaker 2: will be done. If truth asks to be spoken, we
Speaker 2: speak it. If a boundary needs to be held, we
Speaker 2: hold it. Our rebellion isn't loud or showy, but it
Speaker 2: is guided by an inner moral compass that remains unwavering.
Speaker 2: In my case, this is what he said. I crossed
Speaker 2: more than a few lines long before I knew I
Speaker 2: was an otrovert. I got in trouble, often mostly for
Speaker 2: pushing buttons that no one else dared to push. I
Speaker 2: couldn't stop myself when it came to calling out hypocrisy,
Speaker 2: questioning authority, sticking up for the underdog, or naming social
Speaker 2: inequities that everyone else seemed willing to swallow. And in
Speaker 2: my own life, I was typecast as the troublemaker or
Speaker 2: the one who wouldn't play along.
Speaker 1: Boom, you know what, I don't see that it sounds
Speaker 1: as if you're almost an intentional rebel rouser. It sounds
Speaker 1: like like I do this intentionally because I want to
Speaker 1: shake things up or I can't sit idly by. Why
Speaker 1: some I'm I'm gonna call out. I am not a
Speaker 1: caller outer. I do not do it. It sounds like
Speaker 1: he was hinting might be a little.
Speaker 2: Bit more aggressive, But I feel like from a from
Speaker 2: an ideological standpoint, that is how you operate.
Speaker 1: Now, I will sit there quiet for whatever reason. If
Speaker 1: I'm in a group, I will sit there quiet. Let
Speaker 1: everybody do the thing. You know, this is my mindset
Speaker 1: in uh group text change change. If you want to
Speaker 1: make sure you never hear from me, put me in
Speaker 1: a group text.
Speaker 2: But that's exactly a note divert. That is, that is
Speaker 2: exactly what they're talking about. And whereas someone like me,
Speaker 2: I will fully admit I seek validity or validation from
Speaker 2: groups from a social experience. I want to be a
Speaker 2: part of it, and I want to I seek validation.
Speaker 2: You do not.
Speaker 1: No, that's true. You talk about that with me all
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting being in a relationship with someone like
Speaker 2: that because I operate in that sphere and you don't.
Speaker 2: And so sometimes we are misaligned in our communication because
Speaker 2: what I want you don't need, and so what I'm
Speaker 2: giving like it does it is interesting, and so I
Speaker 2: feel like this makes so much sense. Now I'm curious
Speaker 2: what you think about this. A therapist went in and
Speaker 2: actually tried to get to understand the mindset behind an otrovert,
Speaker 2: and they say, you may have learned early on how
Speaker 2: to read the room, adapt or stay slightly on guard.
Speaker 2: Would you say that you did growing up well.
Speaker 1: Again you as a black man again? You added it
Speaker 1: in there. We learn how to adjust to whatever room
Speaker 1: that we are in, and certainly when you do in
Speaker 1: a big business. Yes, code switching is thing.
Speaker 2: Okay, yes, all right, yes, all right. I don't know
Speaker 2: how you feel about this, the childhood thing. I know
Speaker 2: you hate going back trying to do, but most therapists do.
Speaker 2: And okay, part of the work I've done as well.
Speaker 1: This is what she says, what did my parents do
Speaker 1: to me?
Speaker 2: Come? Many otroverts come from growing up emotionally unseen, misunderstood,
Speaker 2: or needing to self contain parts of yourself to stay connected.
Speaker 1: To others self contained, ever.
Speaker 2: Feel emotionally unseen.
Speaker 1: Blast man in America who has time in all seriousness.
Speaker 1: That is not just a joke. I am this. It
Speaker 1: sounds extreme, but think of all the shit I gotta
Speaker 1: I gotta stop and think about my feelings. Who the
Speaker 1: hell cares what a black man feels in America? That
Speaker 1: is serious. Nobody. I learned very early on, shut the
Speaker 1: fuck up. Nobody cares. You Gotta be excellent. This is
Speaker 1: what Ambassador Young told me at the Paley Center. I
Speaker 1: remember this moment just on the side. He said, man,
Speaker 1: be excellent first, and then you can be as black
Speaker 1: as you want to be. But you can't lead with
Speaker 1: your blackness. Yes, so I in a racial setting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely so. This is interesting. So there is
Speaker 1: obviously a psychological element of it. One hundred percent your
Speaker 1: experience as a black man plays into this. That makes
Speaker 1: sense to me. She said, your work is not about
Speaker 1: becoming more social or being different than you are.
Speaker 2: It's about finding spaces where you don't have to mask, bend,
Speaker 2: or shape shift to feel understood. I feel like you've
Speaker 2: said that to me before.
Speaker 1: Weekly, Yes, daily, Yes, possibly. I always say that when
Speaker 1: I am in my home, in my personal time, if
Speaker 1: I have to put on in any way, it drives
Speaker 1: me crazy and sometimes It has to do with who's
Speaker 1: coming over, what friend group, how big of a crowd,
Speaker 1: who I got to be in front of, who I
Speaker 1: have to spend time with, If I have to be
Speaker 1: on guard in my personal time. It drives me.
Speaker 2: But down see, it's interesting because that thought never comes
Speaker 2: to my mind, Like I don't even consider that or
Speaker 2: think about that. It could be my whiteness, Like I
Speaker 2: get that, but this is fascinating stuff. All right. When
Speaker 2: we come back, if TJ is an outrovert, if you're
Speaker 2: an otrovert, if you love someone who's an otrovert, experts
Speaker 2: have advice for anyone in a relationship with someone who
Speaker 2: if this sounds familiar to you, is an otrovert.
Speaker 1: All right, folks, we continue here on Amy and TJSON.
Speaker 1: Screwy stuff was happening with our audio possibly there, but
Speaker 1: hopefully you're back with us here. Yes, you're uh the
Speaker 1: lessons here I some Yes, I would say eighty percent
Speaker 1: of what you're saying with the ultrovert thing. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: sounds about right, and it's weird that we yes, we're
Speaker 1: I guess you have to find personnel, but we're always
Speaker 1: trying to fit ourselves into something. He's this or he's that,
Speaker 1: and now we give them a new option.
Speaker 2: I think it helps with understanding who you are, and
Speaker 2: it helps with a person who's in a relationship with
Speaker 2: you under it because we are all built so differently,
Speaker 2: our brains are wired so differently. It can be genetics,
Speaker 2: but it can also be life experiences, whether it's in
Speaker 2: your family dynamic or in your social dynamic, into what
Speaker 2: you were born and it shapes how you react to
Speaker 2: things and people and to yourself. And this just this
Speaker 2: hit for me. This resonated with me reading this. It
Speaker 2: helps me understand in a way that I sometimes I
Speaker 2: couldn't understand, like why does that bother him so much?
Speaker 2: Or why is this something he's focused on because it
Speaker 2: wouldn't be anything I was focused on. This is so interesting.
Speaker 1: Why haven't you just given me space to be myself? Okay,
Speaker 1: so did you need a label? Did you need an article?
Speaker 1: Did you need a therapist to write this?
Speaker 2: I think it helps. I do. I do think it helps.
Speaker 2: It helps because we are all so different and to
Speaker 2: just to find something to work, I'm like, oh, I
Speaker 2: get it. So okay, here's what therapists. I believe the
Speaker 2: headline was what therapists are begging people who love outroverts
Speaker 2: to remember, how about this one? I want to see
Speaker 2: how you feel about all of these outroverts. Don't need
Speaker 2: to be coaxed, fixed.
Speaker 1: Or pulled closer, don't need to be what one like?
Speaker 2: You know, hey, like, come on, come over here, do this?
Speaker 2: Do this with me coaxed, fixed, or pulled closer?
Speaker 1: You don't want that fixed or pulled closer. Certainly not coaxed.
Speaker 1: You know better than that fixed. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's something in there about we don't ever someone feel
Speaker 1: like like we do it on our own. I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's a part of it. But to have
Speaker 1: some outside help, like therapy is the thing I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily came on board with for various reasons, but maybe
Speaker 1: that plays into that.
Speaker 2: All right. What helps the most when you're when you
Speaker 2: love someone who's an otrovert is consistency, genuine curiosity, and
Speaker 2: emotional presence.
Speaker 1: What was the first one?
Speaker 2: Consistency?
Speaker 1: Man, Maybe we should continue this conversation off air, no,
Speaker 1: with some of that thing. If you suggest, like, do
Speaker 1: you give me all of those things?
Speaker 2: That hearing that that is what you need gives me
Speaker 2: a roadmap, you know, I've said to you, what do
Speaker 2: you need? How can I help? And you're like, don't
Speaker 2: make me nervous, But you always say it's not I don't.
Speaker 2: It's not my job to tell you. So I always
Speaker 2: feel like a little sometimes like I'm spinning.
Speaker 1: Read the last thing again.
Speaker 2: What helps most is consistency, genuine curiosity, and emotional presence.
Speaker 1: That's not something those last two or not things. I
Speaker 1: feel like it from almost anybody. And it might be
Speaker 1: a case where people don't think I need that. People
Speaker 1: are always trying to read or think I'm this, or
Speaker 1: think I'm that, or but yeah, that's the if that's
Speaker 1: something I need. I'm trying to think that's something I
Speaker 1: can admit myself. What was it? Emotional presence?
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think you have mentioned this to me,
Speaker 2: like if I'm distracted, if I'm looking at my phone,
Speaker 2: you get frustrated with me because I'm not emotionally present
Speaker 2: for you, Like I do think that that is something
Speaker 2: you have complained about to me, and I never kind
Speaker 2: of put it in this place. And genuine curiosity when
Speaker 2: you're upset. Oh yeah, I shouldn't defend, I shouldn't reflect,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't tell you you're wrong or not. No, get
Speaker 2: curious and I do know this intellectually. But that is
Speaker 2: what you need.
Speaker 1: But isn't that the basics of everybody? I don't find
Speaker 1: that to be significant to an introvert. That's human behavior.
Speaker 1: You want to be seen, you want to be heard,
Speaker 1: you want somebody emotionally present, you want somebody paying attention
Speaker 1: to you when you are explaining or you're hurt.
Speaker 2: So that's that would be advice for anybody, But I
Speaker 2: think you're saying specifically for people who are it's extra
Speaker 2: important to them. Like I do think that this is
Speaker 2: my favorite. Let them take up space at their own pace,
Speaker 2: listen without rushing to respond. They just need to be
Speaker 2: met where they are. Damn, I need to like put
Speaker 2: that up and frame it.
Speaker 1: Why does that not apply to everybody? Isn't that base?
Speaker 1: It's don't we all need and want that thing? You're
Speaker 1: saying some needed more.
Speaker 2: I think some needed more. Think about like you've observed
Speaker 2: me and my family My daughter is like we interrupt
Speaker 2: each other, we talk over each other where like we
Speaker 2: get loud, and I don't take offense to any of
Speaker 2: it because that's just like boom. You listen without rushing
Speaker 2: to respond. That is not something I ever grew up doing.
Speaker 2: You and I get why you need that, but I
Speaker 2: haven't been around that.
Speaker 1: Take it differently, Listen without rushing to respond is different
Speaker 1: from when I see people all they're doing is wanting
Speaker 1: themselves to be heard over. Talking is something people do
Speaker 1: in every conversation, but when I see people who actually
Speaker 1: are just I need to get this out. No matter what.
Speaker 1: You know what. You know this because you're a journalist.
Speaker 1: What is one of the biggest mistakes you make is
Speaker 1: looking forward to the next question and not listening to
Speaker 1: the last answer because you might miss the good shit
Speaker 1: that is all. And I see that not happening with
Speaker 1: a lot of people. Just you sometimes look at people
Speaker 1: in conversations sometime and before somebody stops speaking, you see
Speaker 1: the other person's mouth actually open up and they're just
Speaker 1: waiting to jump in to say what they want to say.
Speaker 1: That's a that's guilty of that.
Speaker 2: I am so guilty of that. I struggle with that.
Speaker 2: I have to fight my tendency to do that, and
Speaker 2: I know it's not becoming, but I will fully admit that.
Speaker 1: For me, it means you're not listening. For me, it
Speaker 1: means wow. She I could actually finish this sentence by saying, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go into the next room and I
Speaker 1: am going to take a poop on your new sheets.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't even hear it to go wait what you
Speaker 1: would just start talking about whatever you're going to talk about.
Speaker 1: I could say the most outlandish it's so true. So
Speaker 1: it's that. So if that's an outrovert thing or excuse metrovert.
Speaker 2: Yeah, outro yes, And for me, like, yes, it's annoying,
Speaker 2: but it wouldn't feel as deeply offensive as it feels
Speaker 2: to an introvert. And I get that. Let them take
Speaker 2: up space at their own pace, listen without rushing to respond.
Speaker 2: They just need to be met where they are. That
Speaker 2: is such good advice. All right, Here's this is the
Speaker 2: other thing. Some days they may want to stay at
Speaker 2: the party until it ends, and other days they may
Speaker 2: not want to go at all. There is nothing to fix.
Speaker 2: The most helpful response is support, flexibility, and respect for
Speaker 2: their changing needs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very rare that I want to stay for
Speaker 1: the party. That's me or go.
Speaker 2: Even last night I was like, should we get one more?
Speaker 2: You're like, no, we should go to bed and I
Speaker 2: need you in my life for a lot of reasons,
Speaker 2: but definitely for that because I'm the one who will
Speaker 2: stay way past the time. She should.
Speaker 1: Look, we went hard last night. We did wait, I
Speaker 1: mean we had folks that has dropped us off, like, hey,
Speaker 1: y'all go to bed. We gotta get out here. So no,
Speaker 1: but I I am just not a I don't because
Speaker 1: so many robes, parties and events and whatnot are end
Speaker 1: up being obligations for me. Even if this is not
Speaker 1: my party, I'm not speaking on stage, I end up
Speaker 1: sitting in a position where I need to entertain. I
Speaker 1: need to be on. That's the word I use all
Speaker 1: the time if anything puts me in a position I
Speaker 1: feel like I need to be on. I don't want
Speaker 1: to go there.
Speaker 2: I just maybe I understand you now, like a new level,
Speaker 2: a new level of understanding.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, so yeah, No.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, By the way, if you are curious,
Speaker 2: if you're an otrovert, if any of this or someone
Speaker 2: you know is, you can AC should take a quiz.
Speaker 2: You should do this. It's a www. Dot Otherness Institute
Speaker 2: dot com. So O T H E R N E
Speaker 2: S s I N S T I t U t E.
Speaker 2: Otherness Institute dot Com. I made it more confusing by
Speaker 2: trying to spell it out. Just my apologies, Institute dot Com.
Speaker 2: Maybe we're about to get on a plane. Maybe you
Speaker 2: should take the quiz on the plane. That'll be interesting.
Speaker 1: Why I've already just you already told me what I
Speaker 1: am and who I am, and what I'm about, what
Speaker 1: I feel, what I should think. Yeah, I'm covered.
Speaker 2: Just trying to meet you where you are, bab.
Speaker 1: Typical, all right, folks, we always appreciate she was so
Speaker 1: excited about this. I'm so glad we got this in
Speaker 1: So I hope your relationship is improved now that you
Speaker 1: understand your mate after reading one freaking article. And with that,
Speaker 1: we always appreciate she hanging with us on DJ Holmes
Speaker 1: on behalf of my dear, dear lovely Extroverted Amy Robot.
Speaker 1: We'll talk to you, als,