WEBVTT - #306 Guest Host Beth Shelburne with Jeffrey Holemon 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.560 I'm Jason Flamm. Through this podcast, I aim to highlight 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:06.480 how frequently our criminal legal system shatters the lives of 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:10.879 innocent people, Whether junk science is introduced at trial, police 0:00:11.000 --> 0:00:15.400 or prosecutorial misconduct, or simply a misidentification. Each story is 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.520 devastating on its own, but when we zoom out and 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:20.720 take in the sheer breadth of the issue, we can 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.680 see a pattern forming across our entire system. Who better 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.960 to take us on that journey than the brilliant journalists 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.640 and writers who regularly cover these stories. 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.680 In March of nineteen eighty seven, a young woman was 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:40.159 assaulted by a masked man while she walked back to 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:45.240 her apartment in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The man raped her, then 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.040 forced her to give him the location of her car 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.600 and her bank access code. He took her bank card 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:55.240 and car keys. She never got to see his face. 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:01.920 This horrifying attack sent shock waves through Tuscaloosa and through 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.400 the University of Alabama, where she was a student. There 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.600 was allowed public outcry for the attacker to be caught 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:15.200 and punished. A few days after the attack, a man 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:20.080 named Jeffrey Holman was arrested for burglary and writing bad checks. 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.560 While he awaited trial, he was asked to take part 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.200 in a police lineup. Only later would Jeffrey learn what 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.279 that lineup was for, and that a witness had picked 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:36.160 him out as the masked man who attacked a young woman. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.160 Jeffrey admitted to writing bad checks and attempting to steal 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.640 a stereo, but he denied having any part in the 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.520 rape of the college student. With only the witness to 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:56.240 rely on and no physical evidence, Jeffrey was convicted of 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:02.960 the rape and sentenced to life in prison. This is 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:18.679 Wrongful Conviction. My name is Beth Shelburne and I am 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.639 thrilled to be guest hosting this episode of Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.200 I'm an investigative reporter and writer based in Birmingham, Alabama. 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:32.280 I've spent many years focused on criminal justice and mass incarceration, 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.720 and through my work, I've learned a lot about the 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:40.200 prison system in the way people are often mistreated. There's 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:45.320 a tendency among journalists to focus on the most dramatic stories, 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:50.720 gruesome murders and wrongful convictions that result in decades behind bars, 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.000 but it is far more common for low level offenses 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.840 to land people in prison, often with a sentence that 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:03.880 is disproportionate to the crime. I came across Jeffrey's case 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.000 and was struck by how little had been written about it. 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.120 It was only by searching through newspaper archives that I 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:15.480 was able to find more information. It's a quieter story, 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:20.000 but one that illuminates the way low level offenses can 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:24.400 often ensnare people. Once they're in the criminal justice system, 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.960 it's that much easier for them to end up wrongfully convicted. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.640 Jeffrey's story is a reminder of how even a simple 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:38.480 bad choice can put anyone at risk of life imprisonment 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:43.600 in this punishment oriented nation of ours. I recently had 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.000 the pleasure of talking to Jeffrey about his story in 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:48.720 his home near Tuscaloosa. 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.400 My name is jeff Holman, and I was wrong and 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.640 convicted and spent twelve years in prison, and I am 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.560 soon to celebrate my twenty fourth year out. 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:03.880 That's a happy mile marker. 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:05.000 Yes, indeed. 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:09.920 So before we get into all the details about the 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.400 crime that you were accused and convicted of wrongfully and 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.120 everything that happened afterwards, I want to kind of go 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:22.120 back to the beginning your childhood. I know that you're 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:27.039 from this area. What was life like for you growing 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:28.920 up in Tuscaloosa County, Alabama. 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.720 Well, I had a normal childhood, and as in Tuscalusa, 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.920 you're raised to be an Alabama fan, and I did 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:42.640 like most young boys. I played baseball, I fished, haunted, 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.640 just did all the things that young boys do. And 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.839 then of course in high school, I, you know, experimenting 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.680 with marijuana, and so I feel like I could have 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:55.919 done better in sports had I, you know, stayed on 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:59.680 straight ANDed era. I graduated from high school and I 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.919 got a job with the city and during the next 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:08.240 two or three years, I held construction jobs. And I 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.560 don't know at what point where I decided that writing 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:15.760 Bad Chicks and Forgery was a good idea, but that 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:19.760 was probably my beginning of a bad choice career. 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.680 I'll just explain a little bit of the facts of 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:25.680 the case and then we can talk about it from 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:30.640 your perspective. But it happened in March of nineteen eighty seven, 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.640 and this was a female student at the University of 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:38.920 Alabama in Tuscaloosa. She was returning from classes on campus 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:43.120 to an off campus apartment and says that she was 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:46.800 ambushed by a masked man who forced her into the 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.560 apartment and then raped her. The victim told police that 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:56.039 the attacker forced her to tell him her bank access 0:05:56.160 --> 0:06:00.440 code and where her car was located, and he says 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.680 he took her car keys, he took the bank card 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.160 and then left after the assault. And he never took 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:12.360 off his mask, so the victim could not provide an 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:18.120 accurate facial description of the perpetrator, which is really important 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:23.600 in cases that are predicated on an eyewitness. Can you 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.200 tell me about the burglary that had landed you in 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.719 jail to begin with, and the check forgery. You ultimately 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.920 pleaded guilty in that case right in the following year, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:39.360 April of nineteen eighty eight, before this rape case went 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:41.520 to trial, So tell me what was going on with 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:42.600 those cases. 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.479 Well, with the burglary, I saw a bright stereo with 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:52.240 lights and everything in a window, and at that time 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.640 I'm thinking, gosh, that would be I was gonna steal 0:06:56.680 --> 0:07:00.680 the stereo. Well, when I went to check, the window 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:02.840 of the window was locked, but the door was open, 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.360 so I went in. I was going to get the stereo, 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:09.760 and somebody came out of the bed. I didn't know 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:12.320 anybody was home, so somebody came out of the room. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.080 Then I had to start having conversation, and next thing 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.720 I know, I grabbed the person and I push her 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:21.400 down and I run. You know, I was probably as 0:07:21.400 --> 0:07:24.640 scared as she was, but I had no idea anybody 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:25.040 was home. 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:29.400 Did you end up getting the stereo? No, so they 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.600 still charged you with first degree burglary, but you technically 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:33.560 didn't steal. 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.880 Anything because somebody was home. 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.880 Gotcha? Okay? And then what about the check forgeries? 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:45.120 Well, I forged one check, and I closed a bank 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:50.320 account and went on check right and spray and another 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:51.200 bad choice. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.760 It's always interesting to me to talk to people about 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.040 these kinds of crimes because a lot of times they're 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:02.280 really on the line between felony and misdemeanor. You know, 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:06.920 it really, I think depends on the amount that was taken. 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:10.240 Do you have any idea what the financial impact was 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:11.720 of the forgery cases? 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:15.920 It was like, I won't say a few hundred dollars. 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:20.040 Yeah, so this was not a million dollar high. Gotcha? 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.240 So you ended up getting arrested. And then when did 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.400 they come to you and say we want to put 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.360 you in a lineup for this other case? 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.760 My best recollection I had been in jail for a 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:34.000 couple of weeks. Maybe it's hard to say that it's 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.520 been so long, but I didn't have any problem being 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:42.360 in a lineup. I mean, so I voluntarily went and 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:43.280 went to the lineup. 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.960 Did you know at that point that they were investigating 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:47.320 a rate? 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:48.400 Had no idea? 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:50.840 So what did you think when they told you that 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:51.880 you'd been picked out? 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.720 I couldn't believe it. I mean, I knew I never 0:08:55.800 --> 0:08:58.280 raped anybody, So I got thinking, have I slept with 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:01.000 somebody that I pissed off? Forgot somebody got mad at 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.520 me or something? But I knew I never wriped anybody, 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.720 So I couldn't figure it out. And then they start 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.720 giving me more pieces of puzzle and they tell me 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.560 where this crime happened, and I didn't even know. I 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.640 didn't even know where those apartments were at. 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:20.080 Police eventually located the victim's abandoned car, and when they did, 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.480 there was a student at the university who told police 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.439 he saw a man get out of the car sometime earlier. 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:31.960 And then on March twenty first, nineteen eighty seven, shortly 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.800 after the student was raped, Jeff, you were arrested by 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:39.880 Tuscalusa police on charges of check forgery and burglary. While 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.360 you were in jail, you mentioned you were placed in 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:47.640 that lineup, and that male student who told police he 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.520 saw someone emerge from the victim's car was the one 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:55.400 that selected you from the lineup. We talked a little 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.760 bit about, you know what that felt like. But when 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.559 they I told you you were chosen out of the lineup, 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:04.680 what was the next step then? Did they just send 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.640 you back to your cell And you're thinking, Oh my god, 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:11.960 what are they putting on me? I had nothing to 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:12.360 do with. 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:17.800 This exactly, and of course I had no idea what, 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.640 you know, what they were actually, what all was involved 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:24.720 or what you know. But it just kept blowing my 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.960 mind just to think that I was being accused of 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:32.200 something I hadn't done. That's why, I mean, I admitted 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:35.040 to the stuff I did because I did it, and 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.360 then they're gonna throw something on me that I didn't do, 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:40.840 and I'd just never been in that situation before. 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:43.760 Was it hard for you to admit to the things 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:45.800 that you did do? What caused you to be so 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:47.080 transparent with them? 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.520 I didn't because I I just that's the way I am. 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:52.360 You know, if I did something, I'm going to own 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:57.920 up to it, whatever the repercussions, and pay the price. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:19.440 But I ended up paying a lot bigger price. I 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.520 didn't go to trial until fifteen months later. I sat 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.320 in jail fifteen months waiting to go try. 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:30.000 Yeah, that time pre trial, when you're held in jail. 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.040 It seems like other people I've talked to that have 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:37.320 had a similar experience. You're in this weird limbo where 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:40.280 you don't know what's going to happen with your case. 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.000 You don't know if your lawyer is going to work out, 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:44.440 you don't know if you're going to get charged with 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.280 something else. I mean, it really does sound like hell. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.439 And what was the Tuscaloosa County jail like back in 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.040 nineteen eighty seven, eighty eight. 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.640 It wasn't the High at Hilton, but it was. I mean, 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:01.920 it was overcrowded. You might have three or four people 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:05.440 in the cell where it was designed for two. You 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.760 might have to put a mattress on the floor. It 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.560 was it had a lot to be desired. 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:16.800 I know that there was some choreography with you pleading 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:21.800 guilty to the burglary but then deciding to take the 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.520 rape case to trial because you didn't do it. The 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:29.360 media reported that case went to trial in the summer 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.840 of nineteen eighty eight. So had you already pleaded guilty 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.720 to the burglary, okay, and you had already been sentenced in. 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.520 That I did what they call an open ended guilty plead, 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.880 So I played guilty open open end means I might 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.720 get less, I might get more. But I ended up 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.360 getting twenty five years for the burglary. 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.920 So let's talk about the trial. I have here the 0:12:55.960 --> 0:13:00.520 student witness that we mentioned, the man that saw the 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:05.160 alleged perpetrator get out of the victim's car, testified against you. 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.080 I also read in some media reports that there were 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:14.400 some security photos at the bank atm where the attacker 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.760 withdrew money, but they were of such poor quality that 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:22.240 they couldn't really exonerate you or implicate you exactly, So 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:26.319 that wasn't helpful. Who was your attorney at trial and 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.559 was this someone you retained or were they appointed? 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.600 Her name was Edwinnam Miller, and she was appointed. You know, 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.920 I know appointed lawyers aren't paid a whole lot, so 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.400 and I don't know her case load. I just know 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:43.280 that she seemed ill prepared. When we got to trial, 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.680 I really felt like then that I had made a 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.640 mistake on well, that was all I could afford at 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.079 the time, so I didn't have a lot of choice. 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.240 But I don't think she gave it the best that 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.360 she had. I'll say it like that. I just remember 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:06.080 her statement it's sentencing when they when they handed down senate, 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:12.160 her exact words were, don't worry, it's just life. And well, 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:14.840 and I'm thinking, you're going home to your girlfriend tonight 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.079 and I'm going to prison. 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:18.520 And don't worry. 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.760 It's just it's just life. And then I get to 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.200 prison and I get a letter from her, and she 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.120 tells me, in essence, she uh she had researched, and 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.520 uh she filed with the Colla Anders brief, and that 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.360 she couldn't find anything wrong in the transcript. 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.080 Of course, she wouldn't be filing an appeal on ineffective 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.040 assistance of counsel because that would basically be calling her 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.479 own work into question. And what was the general attitude 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.560 in the courtroom from your recollection, this was a pretty 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.520 high profile case, a college student being raped in an apartment. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:15:00.080 The general attitude was that we need to find and 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.360 this man guilty because this is a this is a 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:09.160 university student, and it was already the way the the 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:11.840 tenses of the verb, you know, the way they talked, 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:14.760 It was like I was before I was even the 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.160 jury made their decision. It was like I was already 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:18.840 a sin and guilty. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.880 That presumption of guilt that's there. So you didn't take 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:24.720 the stand, right. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:28.320 She advised me because of my past, and you know, 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:30.680 not that I didn't need to take the stand. They 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:31.640 would tear me apart. 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:37.080 And then how much, if at all, do you feel 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:41.359 like the state used your guilty plea in the burglary 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.880 case to argue, you know, that you were guilty in 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:49.240 this other case even though the burglary of the house 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.120 with the stereo had nothing to do with this college 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:54.560 student being raped. I mean, you see these kinds of 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:56.880 suggestions made all the time in court. 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.240 I feel like it was one hundred percent made till 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.560 that because it's like they looked at it like, well, 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.560 if he did that, he could have done this. And 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.200 that's the way I felt the whole time. 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.520 Do you remember kind of what it felt like to 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.600 sit there? I mean, it's one thing to be in 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:21.960 court being tried for something that you potentially had a 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:26.359 pardon or even that you admitted to committing, like the burglary. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.600 But this was something that you didn't even know the location, 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.440 You weren't sure where the address was. You had nothing 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.400 to do with it. And to sit there and have 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.240 to sit through days of testimony where they're accusing you 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:45.240 in a violent rape, I can't imagine how excruciating that 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.840 experience must have been. Did you have family and supporters 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:50.960 there in court with you? 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:56.000 My whole family was there, my father, my stepmother, my grandmother. 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:01.080 It was I mean, they stood my owner. And the 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:06.760 hardest part for me was when we had to all 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.120 go in the back room and everybody was crying, and 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:12.479 I'm doing my best to try to hold everybody together 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:17.640 because my grandmother and my stepmother, everybody was just hysterical, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.400 you know, and I just I felt helpless. 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.440 And you probably had to say goodbye to them at 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:29.679 that point, right. Yeah, that's something you know, most people 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.639 will never experience, but the people who do that is 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:39.119 a really dark moment in the human existence, you know, 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:41.960 going to prison, but going to prison for something that 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.399 you did not do. You told me a little bit 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.000 about the sentencing and what your attorney said that it's 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.560 just life. Trying to get in her head, she was 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:57.160 probably meaning it's not life without parole. There's some ambiguity 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.000 in the way Alabama sentences people to life because we 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:05.720 have indeterminate sentencing, so most sentences are eligible for parole 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:10.680 and a life sentence typically in Alabama. Now you serve 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.200 fifteen years and you're eligible for parole. I think back 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:15.160 then it was ten. 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.720 I was given a ten year setup on life. 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.679 Yeah. And there were actually five different counts that you 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.600 were convicted of in the rate case, right, correct? Yeah, 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:26.040 do you remember what they were? 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:34.560 First degree? Right? First degree burglary, stealing a vehicle, stealing 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.040 a bank card and using the bank card. 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.960 So that's a lot of time. When you got to Kilby, 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.679 were you put in an area with folks that had 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:46.919 a lot of time or is everybody just sort of 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.879 thrown in together with all different sentence. 0:18:49.520 --> 0:18:56.400 Links everybody's put together and and one you know, you're 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:01.000 all wearing white. You're now a property the state. You 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.399 shower when they tell you to shower, You go to 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.240 AID when they tell you to aid, and when you 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.679 first get there, they go through all your things. You know, 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.880 It's just that sort of thing you know that you've 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:15.920 never experienced before. Because I've never been in prison, I 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:17.439 know how it was going to play out. I know 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.080 what to expect. Jail is totally different. Like I say 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.280 it was, it was a long twelve years. 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:25.560 I mentioned that I've done a lot of reporting on 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.400 the Alabama prison system. It's currently being sued by the 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.680 Department of Justice because of the unconstitutional conditions. It's incredibly 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:39.080 violent and understaffed, and there's a huge problem with contraband drugs. 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.080 When you first went into the system in eighty eight 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.199 and then you were eventually released in ninety nine, so 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:50.000 you were there late eighties all through the nineties. What 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.240 was the Alabama prison system like then? Walk me through, 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:55.960 Like what a typical day would have been. 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.440 A typical day. You get up and ate breakfast at 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:03.480 four five in the morning. By six or six thirty, 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:06.640 you have your bed made, now, your area cleaned up, 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.560 and you just wait to go to your job. Or 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:13.760 when I first got to Draper, I actually went out 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:15.600 on the farm. That's when they used to send guys 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:16.720 out on the farm to work. 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:17.800 What did you do? 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.440 You basically walked three or four miles carrying a hoe 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.159 or a heavy tool and you don't actually do a 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:25.679 whole lot of work. You do a lot of walking. 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:27.879 Did it's just something to get you out of the camp. 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:29.959 And did you get paid for that work? 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.280 No, you do not get paid. You get three meals 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.760 a day and some of those are marginal. 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.919 Wow. So that was like old school hard labor days. 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:43.160 I would say similar. 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.280 Yeah, I know that time was before the Supreme Court 0:20:47.359 --> 0:20:50.600 had told Alabama that they couldn't put people on chain 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.879 gangs along the sides of the road. You didn't have 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.280 any experience with that, did you? The chain gang? Oh? 0:20:57.359 --> 0:20:59.919 I wasn't on the chain gangs, but I do remember 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.200 some before they passed the law, they or when the 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:05.240 guys so what were they would change them to a 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:07.200 change them to a post hitching post? 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.040 Right? That was a separate case. And that was like 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.760 a disciplinary action, right that the officers would take for 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:19.200 if they felt like somebody was misbehaving or being non compliant. 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:21.640 Did you ever witness that while. 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.560 You were in oh I saw a lot of guys 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.800 chain to a chain to a post in ninety degree 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:53.879 weather and it was just it was just so inhumane. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.800 What were the people like that you connected with in prison, 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.720 and you had never been to prison before, you'd never 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:05.160 been in trouble before. Did this change any of your 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:09.719 thinking about the people that we send to prison or 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:10.920 people in general. 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.680 It made me choose people that had had like values 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.600 like mine, people who were straight up, who were honest. 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:24.120 There was a group that used to come in called Cairos. 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:29.480 It was a group of men from different denominations. And 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:33.320 what they do is they come in and they share 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:35.879 the Word of God with you, and their objective is 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:39.639 to build a Christian community within the prison walls. And 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:44.600 I still today I have relationships with some of these men, 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:48.640 and I have actually been back inside the prisons. And 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:53.440 because once I walk inside and I give a talk, 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:56.119 I'm in my element. You know. I can talk to 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:59.680 these guys and they actually listen to me because they 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:03.880 know that I know what they're going through every day 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:07.040 when they leave this religious service or whatever. I know 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:09.000 what they're going back to when they go back behind 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:09.359 the gate. 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:11.159 Yeah, you've walked that walk. 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:15.040 And I just I feel like that, you know, when 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:17.000 I do that, I feel like God's using me at 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:17.880 that moment. 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:21.000 And just in the reporting that I do here in Alabama, 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:23.800 and I talk to a lot of people in the system. 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:27.480 Cairos comes up all the time because it's meant so 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:32.360 much to people and the men's and women's prisons. They 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:35.840 have these wonderful relationships with people on the outside that 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:40.120 otherwise many of them don't have anybody, and so they're 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:44.280 Cairo's friends are really they become their community and their family. 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:50.119 I've seen Chiro's volunteers go testify at parole hearings on 0:23:50.200 --> 0:23:53.320 behalf of people and be their support system when they 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:58.920 get out. So they do really great work. So let's 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:05.440 talk about the post conviction that ultimately got you out. 0:24:05.640 --> 0:24:09.159 So you became eligible for parole in nineteen ninety seven, 0:24:09.920 --> 0:24:14.120 and Alabama passed a law in ninety four where convicted 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:18.600 sex offenders had to give a DNA sample to database 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:23.520 statewide database that was part of state law. So you 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:29.440 filed a rule thirty two requesting that the evidence from 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:33.520 the rape case be compared to your DNA sample that 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:37.000 you had to give under law. How did you get 0:24:37.000 --> 0:24:38.280 the idea to do that? 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:42.560 I thought, well, I don't have anything to lose. I 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:46.160 need to pursue any possibility of finding out the truth 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:49.200 that I can I had friends who knew more about 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:51.960 the law that I did, and I had a particular 0:24:52.040 --> 0:24:57.359