Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flamm. Through this podcast, I aim to highlight
Speaker 1: how frequently our criminal legal system shatters the lives of
Speaker 1: innocent people, Whether junk science is introduced at trial, police
Speaker 1: or prosecutorial misconduct, or simply a misidentification. Each story is
Speaker 1: devastating on its own, but when we zoom out and
Speaker 1: take in the sheer breadth of the issue, we can
Speaker 1: see a pattern forming across our entire system. Who better
Speaker 1: to take us on that journey than the brilliant journalists
Speaker 1: and writers who regularly cover these stories.
Speaker 2: In March of nineteen eighty seven, a young woman was
Speaker 2: assaulted by a masked man while she walked back to
Speaker 2: her apartment in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The man raped her, then
Speaker 2: forced her to give him the location of her car
Speaker 2: and her bank access code. He took her bank card
Speaker 2: and car keys. She never got to see his face.
Speaker 2: This horrifying attack sent shock waves through Tuscaloosa and through
Speaker 2: the University of Alabama, where she was a student. There
Speaker 2: was allowed public outcry for the attacker to be caught
Speaker 2: and punished. A few days after the attack, a man
Speaker 2: named Jeffrey Holman was arrested for burglary and writing bad checks.
Speaker 2: While he awaited trial, he was asked to take part
Speaker 2: in a police lineup. Only later would Jeffrey learn what
Speaker 2: that lineup was for, and that a witness had picked
Speaker 2: him out as the masked man who attacked a young woman.
Speaker 2: Jeffrey admitted to writing bad checks and attempting to steal
Speaker 2: a stereo, but he denied having any part in the
Speaker 2: rape of the college student. With only the witness to
Speaker 2: rely on and no physical evidence, Jeffrey was convicted of
Speaker 2: the rape and sentenced to life in prison. This is
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction. My name is Beth Shelburne and I am
Speaker 2: thrilled to be guest hosting this episode of Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 2: I'm an investigative reporter and writer based in Birmingham, Alabama.
Speaker 2: I've spent many years focused on criminal justice and mass incarceration,
Speaker 2: and through my work, I've learned a lot about the
Speaker 2: prison system in the way people are often mistreated. There's
Speaker 2: a tendency among journalists to focus on the most dramatic stories,
Speaker 2: gruesome murders and wrongful convictions that result in decades behind bars,
Speaker 2: but it is far more common for low level offenses
Speaker 2: to land people in prison, often with a sentence that
Speaker 2: is disproportionate to the crime. I came across Jeffrey's case
Speaker 2: and was struck by how little had been written about it.
Speaker 2: It was only by searching through newspaper archives that I
Speaker 2: was able to find more information. It's a quieter story,
Speaker 2: but one that illuminates the way low level offenses can
Speaker 2: often ensnare people. Once they're in the criminal justice system,
Speaker 2: it's that much easier for them to end up wrongfully convicted.
Speaker 2: Jeffrey's story is a reminder of how even a simple
Speaker 2: bad choice can put anyone at risk of life imprisonment
Speaker 2: in this punishment oriented nation of ours. I recently had
Speaker 2: the pleasure of talking to Jeffrey about his story in
Speaker 2: his home near Tuscaloosa.
Speaker 3: My name is jeff Holman, and I was wrong and
Speaker 3: convicted and spent twelve years in prison, and I am
Speaker 3: soon to celebrate my twenty fourth year out.
Speaker 2: That's a happy mile marker.
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed.
Speaker 2: So before we get into all the details about the
Speaker 2: crime that you were accused and convicted of wrongfully and
Speaker 2: everything that happened afterwards, I want to kind of go
Speaker 2: back to the beginning your childhood. I know that you're
Speaker 2: from this area. What was life like for you growing
Speaker 2: up in Tuscaloosa County, Alabama.
Speaker 3: Well, I had a normal childhood, and as in Tuscalusa,
Speaker 3: you're raised to be an Alabama fan, and I did
Speaker 3: like most young boys. I played baseball, I fished, haunted,
Speaker 3: just did all the things that young boys do. And
Speaker 3: then of course in high school, I, you know, experimenting
Speaker 3: with marijuana, and so I feel like I could have
Speaker 3: done better in sports had I, you know, stayed on
Speaker 3: straight ANDed era. I graduated from high school and I
Speaker 3: got a job with the city and during the next
Speaker 3: two or three years, I held construction jobs. And I
Speaker 3: don't know at what point where I decided that writing
Speaker 3: Bad Chicks and Forgery was a good idea, but that
Speaker 3: was probably my beginning of a bad choice career.
Speaker 2: I'll just explain a little bit of the facts of
Speaker 2: the case and then we can talk about it from
Speaker 2: your perspective. But it happened in March of nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 2: and this was a female student at the University of
Speaker 2: Alabama in Tuscaloosa. She was returning from classes on campus
Speaker 2: to an off campus apartment and says that she was
Speaker 2: ambushed by a masked man who forced her into the
Speaker 2: apartment and then raped her. The victim told police that
Speaker 2: the attacker forced her to tell him her bank access
Speaker 2: code and where her car was located, and he says
Speaker 2: he took her car keys, he took the bank card
Speaker 2: and then left after the assault. And he never took
Speaker 2: off his mask, so the victim could not provide an
Speaker 2: accurate facial description of the perpetrator, which is really important
Speaker 2: in cases that are predicated on an eyewitness. Can you
Speaker 2: tell me about the burglary that had landed you in
Speaker 2: jail to begin with, and the check forgery. You ultimately
Speaker 2: pleaded guilty in that case right in the following year,
Speaker 2: April of nineteen eighty eight, before this rape case went
Speaker 2: to trial, So tell me what was going on with
Speaker 2: those cases.
Speaker 3: Well, with the burglary, I saw a bright stereo with
Speaker 3: lights and everything in a window, and at that time
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, gosh, that would be I was gonna steal
Speaker 3: the stereo. Well, when I went to check, the window
Speaker 3: of the window was locked, but the door was open,
Speaker 3: so I went in. I was going to get the stereo,
Speaker 3: and somebody came out of the bed. I didn't know
Speaker 3: anybody was home, so somebody came out of the room.
Speaker 3: Then I had to start having conversation, and next thing
Speaker 3: I know, I grabbed the person and I push her
Speaker 3: down and I run. You know, I was probably as
Speaker 3: scared as she was, but I had no idea anybody
Speaker 3: was home.
Speaker 2: Did you end up getting the stereo? No, so they
Speaker 2: still charged you with first degree burglary, but you technically
Speaker 2: didn't steal.
Speaker 3: Anything because somebody was home.
Speaker 2: Gotcha? Okay? And then what about the check forgeries?
Speaker 3: Well, I forged one check, and I closed a bank
Speaker 3: account and went on check right and spray and another
Speaker 3: bad choice.
Speaker 2: It's always interesting to me to talk to people about
Speaker 2: these kinds of crimes because a lot of times they're
Speaker 2: really on the line between felony and misdemeanor. You know,
Speaker 2: it really, I think depends on the amount that was taken.
Speaker 2: Do you have any idea what the financial impact was
Speaker 2: of the forgery cases?
Speaker 3: It was like, I won't say a few hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was not a million dollar high. Gotcha?
Speaker 2: So you ended up getting arrested. And then when did
Speaker 2: they come to you and say we want to put
Speaker 2: you in a lineup for this other case?
Speaker 3: My best recollection I had been in jail for a
Speaker 3: couple of weeks. Maybe it's hard to say that it's
Speaker 3: been so long, but I didn't have any problem being
Speaker 3: in a lineup. I mean, so I voluntarily went and
Speaker 3: went to the lineup.
Speaker 2: Did you know at that point that they were investigating
Speaker 2: a rate?
Speaker 3: Had no idea?
Speaker 2: So what did you think when they told you that
Speaker 2: you'd been picked out?
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it. I mean, I knew I never
Speaker 3: raped anybody, So I got thinking, have I slept with
Speaker 3: somebody that I pissed off? Forgot somebody got mad at
Speaker 3: me or something? But I knew I never wriped anybody,
Speaker 3: So I couldn't figure it out. And then they start
Speaker 3: giving me more pieces of puzzle and they tell me
Speaker 3: where this crime happened, and I didn't even know. I
Speaker 3: didn't even know where those apartments were at.
Speaker 2: Police eventually located the victim's abandoned car, and when they did,
Speaker 2: there was a student at the university who told police
Speaker 2: he saw a man get out of the car sometime earlier.
Speaker 2: And then on March twenty first, nineteen eighty seven, shortly
Speaker 2: after the student was raped, Jeff, you were arrested by
Speaker 2: Tuscalusa police on charges of check forgery and burglary. While
Speaker 2: you were in jail, you mentioned you were placed in
Speaker 2: that lineup, and that male student who told police he
Speaker 2: saw someone emerge from the victim's car was the one
Speaker 2: that selected you from the lineup. We talked a little
Speaker 2: bit about, you know what that felt like. But when
Speaker 2: they I told you you were chosen out of the lineup,
Speaker 2: what was the next step then? Did they just send
Speaker 2: you back to your cell And you're thinking, Oh my god,
Speaker 2: what are they putting on me? I had nothing to
Speaker 2: do with.
Speaker 3: This exactly, and of course I had no idea what,
Speaker 3: you know, what they were actually, what all was involved
Speaker 3: or what you know. But it just kept blowing my
Speaker 3: mind just to think that I was being accused of
Speaker 3: something I hadn't done. That's why, I mean, I admitted
Speaker 3: to the stuff I did because I did it, and
Speaker 3: then they're gonna throw something on me that I didn't do,
Speaker 3: and I'd just never been in that situation before.
Speaker 2: Was it hard for you to admit to the things
Speaker 2: that you did do? What caused you to be so
Speaker 2: transparent with them?
Speaker 3: I didn't because I I just that's the way I am.
Speaker 3: You know, if I did something, I'm going to own
Speaker 3: up to it, whatever the repercussions, and pay the price.
Speaker 3: But I ended up paying a lot bigger price. I
Speaker 3: didn't go to trial until fifteen months later. I sat
Speaker 3: in jail fifteen months waiting to go try.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that time pre trial, when you're held in jail.
Speaker 2: It seems like other people I've talked to that have
Speaker 2: had a similar experience. You're in this weird limbo where
Speaker 2: you don't know what's going to happen with your case.
Speaker 2: You don't know if your lawyer is going to work out,
Speaker 2: you don't know if you're going to get charged with
Speaker 2: something else. I mean, it really does sound like hell.
Speaker 2: And what was the Tuscaloosa County jail like back in
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, eighty eight.
Speaker 3: It wasn't the High at Hilton, but it was. I mean,
Speaker 3: it was overcrowded. You might have three or four people
Speaker 3: in the cell where it was designed for two. You
Speaker 3: might have to put a mattress on the floor. It
Speaker 3: was it had a lot to be desired.
Speaker 2: I know that there was some choreography with you pleading
Speaker 2: guilty to the burglary but then deciding to take the
Speaker 2: rape case to trial because you didn't do it. The
Speaker 2: media reported that case went to trial in the summer
Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty eight. So had you already pleaded guilty
Speaker 2: to the burglary, okay, and you had already been sentenced in.
Speaker 3: That I did what they call an open ended guilty plead,
Speaker 3: So I played guilty open open end means I might
Speaker 3: get less, I might get more. But I ended up
Speaker 3: getting twenty five years for the burglary.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the trial. I have here the
Speaker 2: student witness that we mentioned, the man that saw the
Speaker 2: alleged perpetrator get out of the victim's car, testified against you.
Speaker 2: I also read in some media reports that there were
Speaker 2: some security photos at the bank atm where the attacker
Speaker 2: withdrew money, but they were of such poor quality that
Speaker 2: they couldn't really exonerate you or implicate you exactly, So
Speaker 2: that wasn't helpful. Who was your attorney at trial and
Speaker 2: was this someone you retained or were they appointed?
Speaker 3: Her name was Edwinnam Miller, and she was appointed. You know,
Speaker 3: I know appointed lawyers aren't paid a whole lot, so
Speaker 3: and I don't know her case load. I just know
Speaker 3: that she seemed ill prepared. When we got to trial,
Speaker 3: I really felt like then that I had made a
Speaker 3: mistake on well, that was all I could afford at
Speaker 3: the time, so I didn't have a lot of choice.
Speaker 3: But I don't think she gave it the best that
Speaker 3: she had. I'll say it like that. I just remember
Speaker 3: her statement it's sentencing when they when they handed down senate,
Speaker 3: her exact words were, don't worry, it's just life. And well,
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, you're going home to your girlfriend tonight
Speaker 3: and I'm going to prison.
Speaker 2: And don't worry.
Speaker 3: It's just it's just life. And then I get to
Speaker 3: prison and I get a letter from her, and she
Speaker 3: tells me, in essence, she uh she had researched, and
Speaker 3: uh she filed with the Colla Anders brief, and that
Speaker 3: she couldn't find anything wrong in the transcript.
Speaker 2: Of course, she wouldn't be filing an appeal on ineffective
Speaker 2: assistance of counsel because that would basically be calling her
Speaker 2: own work into question. And what was the general attitude
Speaker 2: in the courtroom from your recollection, this was a pretty
Speaker 2: high profile case, a college student being raped in an apartment.
Speaker 3: The general attitude was that we need to find and
Speaker 3: this man guilty because this is a this is a
Speaker 3: university student, and it was already the way the the
Speaker 3: tenses of the verb, you know, the way they talked,
Speaker 3: It was like I was before I was even the
Speaker 3: jury made their decision. It was like I was already
Speaker 3: a sin and guilty.
Speaker 2: That presumption of guilt that's there. So you didn't take
Speaker 2: the stand, right.
Speaker 3: She advised me because of my past, and you know,
Speaker 3: not that I didn't need to take the stand. They
Speaker 3: would tear me apart.
Speaker 2: And then how much, if at all, do you feel
Speaker 2: like the state used your guilty plea in the burglary
Speaker 2: case to argue, you know, that you were guilty in
Speaker 2: this other case even though the burglary of the house
Speaker 2: with the stereo had nothing to do with this college
Speaker 2: student being raped. I mean, you see these kinds of
Speaker 2: suggestions made all the time in court.
Speaker 3: I feel like it was one hundred percent made till
Speaker 3: that because it's like they looked at it like, well,
Speaker 3: if he did that, he could have done this. And
Speaker 3: that's the way I felt the whole time.
Speaker 2: Do you remember kind of what it felt like to
Speaker 2: sit there? I mean, it's one thing to be in
Speaker 2: court being tried for something that you potentially had a
Speaker 2: pardon or even that you admitted to committing, like the burglary.
Speaker 2: But this was something that you didn't even know the location,
Speaker 2: You weren't sure where the address was. You had nothing
Speaker 2: to do with it. And to sit there and have
Speaker 2: to sit through days of testimony where they're accusing you
Speaker 2: in a violent rape, I can't imagine how excruciating that
Speaker 2: experience must have been. Did you have family and supporters
Speaker 2: there in court with you?
Speaker 3: My whole family was there, my father, my stepmother, my grandmother.
Speaker 3: It was I mean, they stood my owner. And the
Speaker 3: hardest part for me was when we had to all
Speaker 3: go in the back room and everybody was crying, and
Speaker 3: I'm doing my best to try to hold everybody together
Speaker 3: because my grandmother and my stepmother, everybody was just hysterical,
Speaker 3: you know, and I just I felt helpless.
Speaker 2: And you probably had to say goodbye to them at
Speaker 2: that point, right. Yeah, that's something you know, most people
Speaker 2: will never experience, but the people who do that is
Speaker 2: a really dark moment in the human existence, you know,
Speaker 2: going to prison, but going to prison for something that
Speaker 2: you did not do. You told me a little bit
Speaker 2: about the sentencing and what your attorney said that it's
Speaker 2: just life. Trying to get in her head, she was
Speaker 2: probably meaning it's not life without parole. There's some ambiguity
Speaker 2: in the way Alabama sentences people to life because we
Speaker 2: have indeterminate sentencing, so most sentences are eligible for parole
Speaker 2: and a life sentence typically in Alabama. Now you serve
Speaker 2: fifteen years and you're eligible for parole. I think back
Speaker 2: then it was ten.
Speaker 3: I was given a ten year setup on life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And there were actually five different counts that you
Speaker 2: were convicted of in the rate case, right, correct? Yeah,
Speaker 2: do you remember what they were?
Speaker 3: First degree? Right? First degree burglary, stealing a vehicle, stealing
Speaker 3: a bank card and using the bank card.
Speaker 2: So that's a lot of time. When you got to Kilby,
Speaker 2: were you put in an area with folks that had
Speaker 2: a lot of time or is everybody just sort of
Speaker 2: thrown in together with all different sentence.
Speaker 3: Links everybody's put together and and one you know, you're
Speaker 3: all wearing white. You're now a property the state. You
Speaker 3: shower when they tell you to shower, You go to
Speaker 3: AID when they tell you to aid, and when you
Speaker 3: first get there, they go through all your things. You know,
Speaker 3: It's just that sort of thing you know that you've
Speaker 3: never experienced before. Because I've never been in prison, I
Speaker 3: know how it was going to play out. I know
Speaker 3: what to expect. Jail is totally different. Like I say
Speaker 3: it was, it was a long twelve years.
Speaker 2: I mentioned that I've done a lot of reporting on
Speaker 2: the Alabama prison system. It's currently being sued by the
Speaker 2: Department of Justice because of the unconstitutional conditions. It's incredibly
Speaker 2: violent and understaffed, and there's a huge problem with contraband drugs.
Speaker 2: When you first went into the system in eighty eight
Speaker 2: and then you were eventually released in ninety nine, so
Speaker 2: you were there late eighties all through the nineties. What
Speaker 2: was the Alabama prison system like then? Walk me through,
Speaker 2: Like what a typical day would have been.
Speaker 3: A typical day. You get up and ate breakfast at
Speaker 3: four five in the morning. By six or six thirty,
Speaker 3: you have your bed made, now, your area cleaned up,
Speaker 3: and you just wait to go to your job. Or
Speaker 3: when I first got to Draper, I actually went out
Speaker 3: on the farm. That's when they used to send guys
Speaker 3: out on the farm to work.
Speaker 2: What did you do?
Speaker 3: You basically walked three or four miles carrying a hoe
Speaker 3: or a heavy tool and you don't actually do a
Speaker 3: whole lot of work. You do a lot of walking.
Speaker 3: Did it's just something to get you out of the camp.
Speaker 2: And did you get paid for that work?
Speaker 3: No, you do not get paid. You get three meals
Speaker 3: a day and some of those are marginal.
Speaker 2: Wow. So that was like old school hard labor days.
Speaker 3: I would say similar.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that time was before the Supreme Court
Speaker 2: had told Alabama that they couldn't put people on chain
Speaker 2: gangs along the sides of the road. You didn't have
Speaker 2: any experience with that, did you? The chain gang? Oh?
Speaker 3: I wasn't on the chain gangs, but I do remember
Speaker 3: some before they passed the law, they or when the
Speaker 3: guys so what were they would change them to a
Speaker 3: change them to a post hitching post?
Speaker 2: Right? That was a separate case. And that was like
Speaker 2: a disciplinary action, right that the officers would take for
Speaker 2: if they felt like somebody was misbehaving or being non compliant.
Speaker 2: Did you ever witness that while.
Speaker 3: You were in oh I saw a lot of guys
Speaker 3: chain to a chain to a post in ninety degree
Speaker 3: weather and it was just it was just so inhumane.
Speaker 2: What were the people like that you connected with in prison,
Speaker 2: and you had never been to prison before, you'd never
Speaker 2: been in trouble before. Did this change any of your
Speaker 2: thinking about the people that we send to prison or
Speaker 2: people in general.
Speaker 3: It made me choose people that had had like values
Speaker 3: like mine, people who were straight up, who were honest.
Speaker 3: There was a group that used to come in called Cairos.
Speaker 3: It was a group of men from different denominations. And
Speaker 3: what they do is they come in and they share
Speaker 3: the Word of God with you, and their objective is
Speaker 3: to build a Christian community within the prison walls. And
Speaker 3: I still today I have relationships with some of these men,
Speaker 3: and I have actually been back inside the prisons. And
Speaker 3: because once I walk inside and I give a talk,
Speaker 3: I'm in my element. You know. I can talk to
Speaker 3: these guys and they actually listen to me because they
Speaker 3: know that I know what they're going through every day
Speaker 3: when they leave this religious service or whatever. I know
Speaker 3: what they're going back to when they go back behind
Speaker 3: the gate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've walked that walk.
Speaker 3: And I just I feel like that, you know, when
Speaker 3: I do that, I feel like God's using me at
Speaker 3: that moment.
Speaker 2: And just in the reporting that I do here in Alabama,
Speaker 2: and I talk to a lot of people in the system.
Speaker 2: Cairos comes up all the time because it's meant so
Speaker 2: much to people and the men's and women's prisons. They
Speaker 2: have these wonderful relationships with people on the outside that
Speaker 2: otherwise many of them don't have anybody, and so they're
Speaker 2: Cairo's friends are really they become their community and their family.
Speaker 2: I've seen Chiro's volunteers go testify at parole hearings on
Speaker 2: behalf of people and be their support system when they
Speaker 2: get out. So they do really great work. So let's
Speaker 2: talk about the post conviction that ultimately got you out.
Speaker 2: So you became eligible for parole in nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 2: and Alabama passed a law in ninety four where convicted
Speaker 2: sex offenders had to give a DNA sample to database
Speaker 2: statewide database that was part of state law. So you
Speaker 2: filed a rule thirty two requesting that the evidence from
Speaker 2: the rape case be compared to your DNA sample that
Speaker 2: you had to give under law. How did you get
Speaker 2: the idea to do that?
Speaker 3: I thought, well, I don't have anything to lose. I
Speaker 3: need to pursue any possibility of finding out the truth
Speaker 3: that I can I had friends who knew more about
Speaker 3: the law that I did, and I had a particular
Speaker 3: friend file some rule thirty two for me to go
Speaker 3: back to court on new evidence. He was at actually
Speaker 3: eager to help me, and he wrote it up and
Speaker 3: he charged me a little twenty five dollars maybe to
Speaker 3: do it, and it got the ball rolling.
Speaker 2: What was the process of working with this jail house attorney?
Speaker 2: How did you guys do this work together?
Speaker 3: Well, of course we talked about it, you know, and
Speaker 3: the privacy of our dorm, and then you go to
Speaker 3: the law library and talk about it some more, and
Speaker 3: it's just somebody that you're comfortable. You know, they're not
Speaker 3: in it to try to take all your money there
Speaker 3: and to try to help you.
Speaker 2: And I know these law libraries are not like normal
Speaker 2: legal libraries in the free world, and you know, they
Speaker 2: still have typewriters. They do not have computers in the
Speaker 2: law libraries, and often don't have the latest legal books
Speaker 2: for people. So it's an ongoing issue of prisons. So
Speaker 2: where was the evidence stored from the actual incident that
Speaker 2: you were convicted in the rape?
Speaker 3: Well, it was supposed to be stored in Tuscaloosa somewhere where.
Speaker 3: I don't know where they Tusaler's, the county jail or
Speaker 3: wherever they do it. But they had said they lost
Speaker 3: the rape kid, there was nothing to test, and then
Speaker 3: all these years later, all of a sudden, it appears
Speaker 3: so they actually had something to test, and they took
Speaker 3: I remember they took blood at the prison. And I
Speaker 3: remember a week or so later, I was called to
Speaker 3: the warden's office and she was on the phone with
Speaker 3: somebody at the pro board, and I could hear her
Speaker 3: into the conversation say you know, yeah, yeah, And she
Speaker 3: got off the phone and she said they got back
Speaker 3: all the results from the DNA test and they were
Speaker 3: all negative. And I can I can remember to this
Speaker 3: day actually filling in week in the knees. I don't
Speaker 3: ever remember being weak in the knees before, but I
Speaker 3: was weak in the knees. And when she said that,
Speaker 3: she said, but she also wanted to remind me that
Speaker 3: you do have the other twenty five year centers.
Speaker 2: So I have from the media reports that it was
Speaker 2: ninety eight that the DA's office located the rape kit
Speaker 2: that had been lost for twelve years. The DNA tests
Speaker 2: were carried out, they excluded Jeff as the source excluded
Speaker 2: you in the rape case, and then Judge England said,
Speaker 2: I see no reason to spend one minute longer on
Speaker 2: this case. Do you remember hearing those words?
Speaker 3: I do?
Speaker 2: What was that like in court? And it's completely understandable
Speaker 2: that you would be emotional because this is we're talking
Speaker 2: like the most dramatic things a human being can go through, is,
Speaker 2: you know, being accused of something they didn't do, being convicted,
Speaker 2: serving over a decade, and then finally seeing the truth
Speaker 2: come out.
Speaker 3: It was pretty emotional to say the least, to know
Speaker 3: that my prayers have been answered and I was getting
Speaker 3: my life back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're twenty four years since then, and it
Speaker 2: still affects you clearly.
Speaker 3: Probably always will.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get that moment in court, and I believe
Speaker 2: you were released the following day. You still had that
Speaker 2: twenty five year sentence. So were you released on parole?
Speaker 2: What was the actual mechanism that got you out of Oh?
Speaker 3: I was given time served on that and released on parole.
Speaker 2: What was the release from prison?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Before you got out the community that you had been in,
Speaker 2: what was the reaction from the folks that were doing
Speaker 2: time with you?
Speaker 3: They were ecstatic for me. They were so happy. I
Speaker 3: remember walking out the door looking back one time, and uh,
Speaker 3: because I left some some good friends. And when I
Speaker 3: walked out the door, it was it was like a
Speaker 3: feeling I'd never felt before, you know, I had. I'd
Speaker 3: never walked out the front door of a prison. It
Speaker 3: was always through the back gate. I didn't know what
Speaker 3: it felt like to walk out the front door. And
Speaker 3: I was nervous. And here I got, I got to
Speaker 3: give a bunch of TV people interviews. You know, you
Speaker 3: barely know what to say. I mean, I just said I.
Speaker 3: You know, they want to know, are you bitter? No?
Speaker 3: I just I thank God that I'm free.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean a lot of people imagining what it
Speaker 2: would be like, feel like they would be so angry
Speaker 2: and hurt by this wrongdoing that had happened to them
Speaker 2: that it's it's hard to imagine being positive or how
Speaker 2: you wouldn't succumb to being bitter. How did you come
Speaker 2: out with such a positive attitude.
Speaker 3: Well, in the beginning, I wasn't so positive, you know,
Speaker 3: And it took years and because I knew I was innocent,
Speaker 3: and finally during the last year and a half, you know,
Speaker 3: I did some soul searching, and I had a relationship,
Speaker 3: a closer relationship with God. And and that's that's the
Speaker 3: only way that I could. I could forgive and not
Speaker 3: be hateful. I think once my heart changed, my circumstances
Speaker 3: started changing.
Speaker 2: Was there anything when you got out that surprised you?
Speaker 2: I always love hearing the stories about, you know, the
Speaker 2: first things people people did, or they ate, or you know,
Speaker 2: something that had changed that they weren't really prepared for.
Speaker 2: You got out in ninety nine, what was the most
Speaker 2: different from eighty seven when you went in?
Speaker 3: So many things had changed. I remember the very first
Speaker 3: thing soonin as we left the prison, we stopped to
Speaker 3: get something to eat, and my dad gave me a
Speaker 3: twenty dollar bill to go go in Taco Bell and
Speaker 3: get some food. I'm looking at a twenty dollar bill
Speaker 3: and it looked like play. I thought that would play money.
Speaker 2: So the actual dollar bill had.
Speaker 3: Changed, the twenty dollars bill had.
Speaker 2: And you had Taco Bell for your first bife.
Speaker 3: I did, what did you eat?
Speaker 2: Do you remember?
Speaker 3: I do not remember. All I remember is that I
Speaker 3: knew I had a state marinating at home. But after
Speaker 3: I'd been out three days and I got my driver's license.
Speaker 3: So I go to the gas pump and the lady
Speaker 3: tells me you could have swiped it at the pomp.
Speaker 3: I had no idea what she meant, you can swipe
Speaker 3: it at the pomp. That was That was beyond my comprehension.
Speaker 2: That was a new language that had developed while you
Speaker 2: were locked up. I love that your taco bell was
Speaker 2: like a snack to get you to the stake that
Speaker 2: was marinating. And how long were you on parole?
Speaker 3: I was on parole about three years. But the funny
Speaker 3: thing is when they first released me on parole, I
Speaker 3: was treated as a sex offender. I had to be
Speaker 3: home at eleven o'clock at night. I had to call
Speaker 3: and check in twice a week let him know I
Speaker 3: was home. So even though I made parole, I was
Speaker 3: still being treated as a sex avender.
Speaker 2: So it was like, even though that conviction was vacated,
Speaker 2: that word didn't make it to the parole board bureaucracy,
Speaker 2: and they still thought that you had that conviction on you.
Speaker 3: I don't know if they thought, but they knew the
Speaker 3: conviction had been you know, everybody knew that, but I
Speaker 3: was still treated like a sex offender. I had to
Speaker 3: get permission if I needed to cross the state line
Speaker 3: for anything. I had to have written permission tag number
Speaker 3: where I was going to every the whole nine yards
Speaker 3: if I needed to cross the state line for any reason.
Speaker 2: Tell me about the work that you ended up doing
Speaker 2: once you got out. A lot of people don't want
Speaker 2: to have anything to do with prison or people in prison.
Speaker 2: They want to like turn over a new leaf and
Speaker 2: do something completely different, but you kind of did the opposite.
Speaker 2: You started a ministry to help people coming out of prison.
Speaker 3: And it's so funny you should ask that. Before I
Speaker 3: got out, that was I used to be fine to
Speaker 3: saying I don't ever want to see another prison. I
Speaker 3: don't ever want to see anything another prisoner. And we
Speaker 3: volunteered at a halfway house soon after I got out.
Speaker 3: We were ex convicts, were starting their life over, and
Speaker 3: I felt God telling me, then, this is what I
Speaker 3: want you to do. So we started a process talking
Speaker 3: to people, speaking in churches to do whatever we could
Speaker 3: to open a halfway house, and we actually our daughter
Speaker 3: thought the name of it, and it was House to Hope.
Speaker 3: But to back up, When I got out of prison,
Speaker 3: I went to my sister's single Sunday school class, and
Speaker 3: I actually dated my Sunday school teacher for six months
Speaker 3: and we got married and then that's when we volunteered
Speaker 3: and started the ministry, which we had the ministry for
Speaker 3: twelve years. And again that's my lucky number twelve twelve
Speaker 3: years in prison, twelve years in the ministry helping men
Speaker 3: coming out of prison. But it also took a toll
Speaker 3: on my life, my marriage, and we end up closing
Speaker 3: the ministry in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: That's really tough work, and I know a lot of
Speaker 2: people can burn out on it because it's so hard.
Speaker 2: It's such a heavy lift. People have so many needs
Speaker 2: coming out of prison that often are not in the
Speaker 2: kind of situation you were in with family support and
Speaker 2: some resources. A lot of people have nobody and nothing.
Speaker 2: What were some of the challenges that you ran into
Speaker 2: in doing that work helping folks coming out of the system.
Speaker 3: Well, you got to help them get a job before
Speaker 3: you get a job, You got to get IDs, You
Speaker 3: got to or even had a dentist to volunteer to
Speaker 3: do all the guy's teeth. He wanted to make them
Speaker 3: presentable for work. It's all about, you know, starting off
Speaker 3: about self esteem. But if you don't have anybody to
Speaker 3: help you, anybody to give you a place to stay
Speaker 3: or close, it's hard to make it from on scratch.
Speaker 3: That's why so many guys go out there and go
Speaker 3: to the easy dollar. You know, they go back to
Speaker 3: selling drugs and the whole vicious cycle starts again.
Speaker 2: We have such high expectations for people, but when they
Speaker 2: need help, you know, a lot of folks are not
Speaker 2: ready to step up. So I'm glad that you did
Speaker 2: that work for as long as you did. Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 2: with Jason Flah usually ends each episode with what they
Speaker 2: call closing arguments, so that's a chance for you to
Speaker 2: share any final thoughts, anything that I didn't ask you,
Speaker 2: I will say, Jeff Holman, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: sharing your story and for your incredible attitude after going
Speaker 2: through such a horrific ordeal, and for the help that
Speaker 2: you've given other people.
Speaker 3: I would just say to anybody listening, or anybody who
Speaker 3: has loved ones or relatives going through this sort of thing,
Speaker 3: just stay true to yourself, don't bow under to the system.
Speaker 3: I knew I was innocent, and I projected innocence the
Speaker 3: whole time. They wanted me to go through some school
Speaker 3: one time, admit guilt and get a certificate, go through
Speaker 3: and I said I wasn't gonna do it because I
Speaker 3: wasn't guilty. I'm not going through some kind of sex
Speaker 3: program to say I was guilty. So you put on
Speaker 3: my record and I would not do it. And I
Speaker 3: thank God today that I just waited on God. The
Speaker 3: truth finally came out, and that's my family was so
Speaker 3: supportive of me and helped me through it. And I
Speaker 3: just thank God that I'm standing here today. And I
Speaker 3: have to you know, even though I wasn't compensated for
Speaker 3: those twelve years, I have my life back and that
Speaker 3: means more than anything.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,
Speaker 2: Beth Shelburne. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason
Speaker 2: Flahm and Kevin Wardis. The Senior producer for this episode
Speaker 2: is Jackie Paully, and our producers are Lila Robinson and
Speaker 2: Jeff Clyburn. Our editor is Rooksandra Guiedy. The music in
Speaker 2: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and on Twitter at
Speaker 2: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On
Speaker 2: all three platforms, you can find me on Twitter at
Speaker 2: b Shelbourne. I also write a substack about criminal justice
Speaker 2: in Alabama. It's called Moth to Flame, and I'm busy
Speaker 2: working on an investigative podcast for LAVA about the wrongful
Speaker 2: conviction of to Forest Johnson, who has been on Alabama's
Speaker 2: death row for twenty five years. Make sure to look
Speaker 2: for that in early twenty twenty three. Wrongful Conviction is
Speaker 2: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with
Speaker 2: Signal Company Number one.
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction,
Speaker 1: Amanda Knox will sit down with Heidi Goodwin to talk
Speaker 1: about Haidee's time incarcerated for a crime that never happened
Speaker 1: at all. During their conversation, Heidi and Amanda will discuss
Speaker 1: the junk science of shaking baby syndrome and the complications
Speaker 1: of relying on testimony from elementary school age children. Amanda
Speaker 1: is family to me and she is one of my
Speaker 1: favorite journalists. She's become a really extraordinary podcaster and a
Speaker 1: fighter for justice. Who I have a huge amount of
Speaker 1: respect for. This is a mustlesten episode and you can
Speaker 1: find it next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed