1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flamm. Through this podcast, I aim to highlight 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: how frequently our criminal legal system shatters the lives of 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: innocent people, Whether junk science is introduced at trial, police 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: or prosecutorial misconduct, or simply a misidentification. Each story is 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: devastating on its own, but when we zoom out and 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: take in the sheer breadth of the issue, we can 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: see a pattern forming across our entire system. Who better 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: to take us on that journey than the brilliant journalists 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: and writers who regularly cover these stories. 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: In March of nineteen eighty seven, a young woman was 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: assaulted by a masked man while she walked back to 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 2: her apartment in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The man raped her, then 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: forced her to give him the location of her car 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: and her bank access code. He took her bank card 15 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: and car keys. She never got to see his face. 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 2: This horrifying attack sent shock waves through Tuscaloosa and through 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 2: the University of Alabama, where she was a student. There 18 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: was allowed public outcry for the attacker to be caught 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: and punished. A few days after the attack, a man 20 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: named Jeffrey Holman was arrested for burglary and writing bad checks. 21 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: While he awaited trial, he was asked to take part 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 2: in a police lineup. Only later would Jeffrey learn what 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,279 Speaker 2: that lineup was for, and that a witness had picked 24 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: him out as the masked man who attacked a young woman. 25 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: Jeffrey admitted to writing bad checks and attempting to steal 26 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: a stereo, but he denied having any part in the 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: rape of the college student. With only the witness to 28 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 2: rely on and no physical evidence, Jeffrey was convicted of 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: the rape and sentenced to life in prison. This is 30 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction. My name is Beth Shelburne and I am 31 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 2: thrilled to be guest hosting this episode of Wrongful Conviction. 32 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: I'm an investigative reporter and writer based in Birmingham, Alabama. 33 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: I've spent many years focused on criminal justice and mass incarceration, 34 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: and through my work, I've learned a lot about the 35 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: prison system in the way people are often mistreated. There's 36 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: a tendency among journalists to focus on the most dramatic stories, 37 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: gruesome murders and wrongful convictions that result in decades behind bars, 38 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 2: but it is far more common for low level offenses 39 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: to land people in prison, often with a sentence that 40 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 2: is disproportionate to the crime. I came across Jeffrey's case 41 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: and was struck by how little had been written about it. 42 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: It was only by searching through newspaper archives that I 43 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: was able to find more information. It's a quieter story, 44 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: but one that illuminates the way low level offenses can 45 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 2: often ensnare people. Once they're in the criminal justice system, 46 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: it's that much easier for them to end up wrongfully convicted. 47 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: Jeffrey's story is a reminder of how even a simple 48 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: bad choice can put anyone at risk of life imprisonment 49 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: in this punishment oriented nation of ours. I recently had 50 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 2: the pleasure of talking to Jeffrey about his story in 51 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: his home near Tuscaloosa. 52 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 3: My name is jeff Holman, and I was wrong and 53 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: convicted and spent twelve years in prison, and I am 54 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 3: soon to celebrate my twenty fourth year out. 55 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: That's a happy mile marker. 56 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: Yes, indeed. 57 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: So before we get into all the details about the 58 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 2: crime that you were accused and convicted of wrongfully and 59 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: everything that happened afterwards, I want to kind of go 60 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: back to the beginning your childhood. I know that you're 61 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 2: from this area. What was life like for you growing 62 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 2: up in Tuscaloosa County, Alabama. 63 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 3: Well, I had a normal childhood, and as in Tuscalusa, 64 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 3: you're raised to be an Alabama fan, and I did 65 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 3: like most young boys. I played baseball, I fished, haunted, 66 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 3: just did all the things that young boys do. And 67 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 3: then of course in high school, I, you know, experimenting 68 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 3: with marijuana, and so I feel like I could have 69 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 3: done better in sports had I, you know, stayed on 70 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 3: straight ANDed era. I graduated from high school and I 71 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 3: got a job with the city and during the next 72 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 3: two or three years, I held construction jobs. And I 73 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 3: don't know at what point where I decided that writing 74 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: Bad Chicks and Forgery was a good idea, but that 75 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: was probably my beginning of a bad choice career. 76 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 2: I'll just explain a little bit of the facts of 77 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: the case and then we can talk about it from 78 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 2: your perspective. But it happened in March of nineteen eighty seven, 79 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: and this was a female student at the University of 80 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 2: Alabama in Tuscaloosa. She was returning from classes on campus 81 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: to an off campus apartment and says that she was 82 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 2: ambushed by a masked man who forced her into the 83 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: apartment and then raped her. The victim told police that 84 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 2: the attacker forced her to tell him her bank access 85 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: code and where her car was located, and he says 86 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 2: he took her car keys, he took the bank card 87 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 2: and then left after the assault. And he never took 88 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: off his mask, so the victim could not provide an 89 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: accurate facial description of the perpetrator, which is really important 90 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 2: in cases that are predicated on an eyewitness. Can you 91 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: tell me about the burglary that had landed you in 92 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 2: jail to begin with, and the check forgery. You ultimately 93 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: pleaded guilty in that case right in the following year, 94 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 2: April of nineteen eighty eight, before this rape case went 95 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: to trial, So tell me what was going on with 96 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 2: those cases. 97 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 3: Well, with the burglary, I saw a bright stereo with 98 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 3: lights and everything in a window, and at that time 99 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 3: I'm thinking, gosh, that would be I was gonna steal 100 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: the stereo. Well, when I went to check, the window 101 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,840 Speaker 3: of the window was locked, but the door was open, 102 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 3: so I went in. I was going to get the stereo, 103 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: and somebody came out of the bed. I didn't know 104 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 3: anybody was home, so somebody came out of the room. 105 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: Then I had to start having conversation, and next thing 106 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 3: I know, I grabbed the person and I push her 107 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: down and I run. You know, I was probably as 108 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: scared as she was, but I had no idea anybody 109 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: was home. 110 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 2: Did you end up getting the stereo? No, so they 111 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: still charged you with first degree burglary, but you technically 112 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: didn't steal. 113 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: Anything because somebody was home. 114 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: Gotcha? Okay? And then what about the check forgeries? 115 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 3: Well, I forged one check, and I closed a bank 116 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: account and went on check right and spray and another 117 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 3: bad choice. 118 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: It's always interesting to me to talk to people about 119 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: these kinds of crimes because a lot of times they're 120 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: really on the line between felony and misdemeanor. You know, 121 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: it really, I think depends on the amount that was taken. 122 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: Do you have any idea what the financial impact was 123 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: of the forgery cases? 124 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 3: It was like, I won't say a few hundred dollars. 125 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this was not a million dollar high. Gotcha? 126 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: So you ended up getting arrested. And then when did 127 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: they come to you and say we want to put 128 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: you in a lineup for this other case? 129 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 3: My best recollection I had been in jail for a 130 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 3: couple of weeks. Maybe it's hard to say that it's 131 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: been so long, but I didn't have any problem being 132 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 3: in a lineup. I mean, so I voluntarily went and 133 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 3: went to the lineup. 134 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: Did you know at that point that they were investigating 135 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 2: a rate? 136 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 3: Had no idea? 137 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: So what did you think when they told you that 138 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: you'd been picked out? 139 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it. I mean, I knew I never 140 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: raped anybody, So I got thinking, have I slept with 141 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 3: somebody that I pissed off? Forgot somebody got mad at 142 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 3: me or something? But I knew I never wriped anybody, 143 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 3: So I couldn't figure it out. And then they start 144 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 3: giving me more pieces of puzzle and they tell me 145 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 3: where this crime happened, and I didn't even know. I 146 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: didn't even know where those apartments were at. 147 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: Police eventually located the victim's abandoned car, and when they did, 148 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: there was a student at the university who told police 149 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,439 Speaker 2: he saw a man get out of the car sometime earlier. 150 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: And then on March twenty first, nineteen eighty seven, shortly 151 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 2: after the student was raped, Jeff, you were arrested by 152 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: Tuscalusa police on charges of check forgery and burglary. While 153 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: you were in jail, you mentioned you were placed in 154 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: that lineup, and that male student who told police he 155 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: saw someone emerge from the victim's car was the one 156 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: that selected you from the lineup. We talked a little 157 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: bit about, you know what that felt like. But when 158 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 2: they I told you you were chosen out of the lineup, 159 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: what was the next step then? Did they just send 160 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: you back to your cell And you're thinking, Oh my god, 161 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: what are they putting on me? I had nothing to 162 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 2: do with. 163 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: This exactly, and of course I had no idea what, 164 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 3: you know, what they were actually, what all was involved 165 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: or what you know. But it just kept blowing my 166 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 3: mind just to think that I was being accused of 167 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 3: something I hadn't done. That's why, I mean, I admitted 168 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 3: to the stuff I did because I did it, and 169 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 3: then they're gonna throw something on me that I didn't do, 170 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 3: and I'd just never been in that situation before. 171 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: Was it hard for you to admit to the things 172 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: that you did do? What caused you to be so 173 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 2: transparent with them? 174 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 3: I didn't because I I just that's the way I am. 175 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 3: You know, if I did something, I'm going to own 176 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 3: up to it, whatever the repercussions, and pay the price. 177 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 3: But I ended up paying a lot bigger price. I 178 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 3: didn't go to trial until fifteen months later. I sat 179 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 3: in jail fifteen months waiting to go try. 180 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that time pre trial, when you're held in jail. 181 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: It seems like other people I've talked to that have 182 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 2: had a similar experience. You're in this weird limbo where 183 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 2: you don't know what's going to happen with your case. 184 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: You don't know if your lawyer is going to work out, 185 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 2: you don't know if you're going to get charged with 186 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 2: something else. I mean, it really does sound like hell. 187 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 2: And what was the Tuscaloosa County jail like back in 188 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, eighty eight. 189 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 3: It wasn't the High at Hilton, but it was. I mean, 190 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 3: it was overcrowded. You might have three or four people 191 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 3: in the cell where it was designed for two. You 192 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 3: might have to put a mattress on the floor. It 193 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 3: was it had a lot to be desired. 194 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: I know that there was some choreography with you pleading 195 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: guilty to the burglary but then deciding to take the 196 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: rape case to trial because you didn't do it. The 197 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: media reported that case went to trial in the summer 198 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty eight. So had you already pleaded guilty 199 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 2: to the burglary, okay, and you had already been sentenced in. 200 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 3: That I did what they call an open ended guilty plead, 201 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 3: So I played guilty open open end means I might 202 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 3: get less, I might get more. But I ended up 203 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: getting twenty five years for the burglary. 204 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: So let's talk about the trial. I have here the 205 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: student witness that we mentioned, the man that saw the 206 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: alleged perpetrator get out of the victim's car, testified against you. 207 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 2: I also read in some media reports that there were 208 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: some security photos at the bank atm where the attacker 209 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: withdrew money, but they were of such poor quality that 210 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: they couldn't really exonerate you or implicate you exactly, So 211 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 2: that wasn't helpful. Who was your attorney at trial and 212 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 2: was this someone you retained or were they appointed? 213 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: Her name was Edwinnam Miller, and she was appointed. You know, 214 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: I know appointed lawyers aren't paid a whole lot, so 215 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 3: and I don't know her case load. I just know 216 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: that she seemed ill prepared. When we got to trial, 217 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 3: I really felt like then that I had made a 218 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: mistake on well, that was all I could afford at 219 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 3: the time, so I didn't have a lot of choice. 220 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: But I don't think she gave it the best that 221 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 3: she had. I'll say it like that. I just remember 222 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 3: her statement it's sentencing when they when they handed down senate, 223 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 3: her exact words were, don't worry, it's just life. And well, 224 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, you're going home to your girlfriend tonight 225 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 3: and I'm going to prison. 226 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: And don't worry. 227 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 3: It's just it's just life. And then I get to 228 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 3: prison and I get a letter from her, and she 229 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 3: tells me, in essence, she uh she had researched, and 230 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: uh she filed with the Colla Anders brief, and that 231 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 3: she couldn't find anything wrong in the transcript. 232 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: Of course, she wouldn't be filing an appeal on ineffective 233 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 2: assistance of counsel because that would basically be calling her 234 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,479 Speaker 2: own work into question. And what was the general attitude 235 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 2: in the courtroom from your recollection, this was a pretty 236 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 2: high profile case, a college student being raped in an apartment. 237 00:14:54,680 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 3: The general attitude was that we need to find and 238 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: this man guilty because this is a this is a 239 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: university student, and it was already the way the the 240 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 3: tenses of the verb, you know, the way they talked, 241 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 3: It was like I was before I was even the 242 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 3: jury made their decision. It was like I was already 243 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: a sin and guilty. 244 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: That presumption of guilt that's there. So you didn't take 245 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: the stand, right. 246 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 3: She advised me because of my past, and you know, 247 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 3: not that I didn't need to take the stand. They 248 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 3: would tear me apart. 249 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: And then how much, if at all, do you feel 250 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,359 Speaker 2: like the state used your guilty plea in the burglary 251 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: case to argue, you know, that you were guilty in 252 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: this other case even though the burglary of the house 253 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: with the stereo had nothing to do with this college 254 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: student being raped. I mean, you see these kinds of 255 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 2: suggestions made all the time in court. 256 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: I feel like it was one hundred percent made till 257 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: that because it's like they looked at it like, well, 258 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 3: if he did that, he could have done this. And 259 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: that's the way I felt the whole time. 260 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: Do you remember kind of what it felt like to 261 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: sit there? I mean, it's one thing to be in 262 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: court being tried for something that you potentially had a 263 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,359 Speaker 2: pardon or even that you admitted to committing, like the burglary. 264 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: But this was something that you didn't even know the location, 265 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: You weren't sure where the address was. You had nothing 266 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 2: to do with it. And to sit there and have 267 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: to sit through days of testimony where they're accusing you 268 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: in a violent rape, I can't imagine how excruciating that 269 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 2: experience must have been. Did you have family and supporters 270 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: there in court with you? 271 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 3: My whole family was there, my father, my stepmother, my grandmother. 272 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 3: It was I mean, they stood my owner. And the 273 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: hardest part for me was when we had to all 274 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 3: go in the back room and everybody was crying, and 275 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,479 Speaker 3: I'm doing my best to try to hold everybody together 276 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 3: because my grandmother and my stepmother, everybody was just hysterical, 277 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 3: you know, and I just I felt helpless. 278 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: And you probably had to say goodbye to them at 279 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 2: that point, right. Yeah, that's something you know, most people 280 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: will never experience, but the people who do that is 281 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: a really dark moment in the human existence, you know, 282 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 2: going to prison, but going to prison for something that 283 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 2: you did not do. You told me a little bit 284 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: about the sentencing and what your attorney said that it's 285 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 2: just life. Trying to get in her head, she was 286 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 2: probably meaning it's not life without parole. There's some ambiguity 287 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: in the way Alabama sentences people to life because we 288 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: have indeterminate sentencing, so most sentences are eligible for parole 289 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 2: and a life sentence typically in Alabama. Now you serve 290 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 2: fifteen years and you're eligible for parole. I think back 291 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 2: then it was ten. 292 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 3: I was given a ten year setup on life. 293 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. And there were actually five different counts that you 294 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: were convicted of in the rate case, right, correct? Yeah, 295 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: do you remember what they were? 296 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 3: First degree? Right? First degree burglary, stealing a vehicle, stealing 297 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 3: a bank card and using the bank card. 298 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 2: So that's a lot of time. When you got to Kilby, 299 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 2: were you put in an area with folks that had 300 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 2: a lot of time or is everybody just sort of 301 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 2: thrown in together with all different sentence. 302 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 3: Links everybody's put together and and one you know, you're 303 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 3: all wearing white. You're now a property the state. You 304 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 3: shower when they tell you to shower, You go to 305 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 3: AID when they tell you to aid, and when you 306 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 3: first get there, they go through all your things. You know, 307 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 3: It's just that sort of thing you know that you've 308 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 3: never experienced before. Because I've never been in prison, I 309 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 3: know how it was going to play out. I know 310 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 3: what to expect. Jail is totally different. Like I say 311 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 3: it was, it was a long twelve years. 312 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: I mentioned that I've done a lot of reporting on 313 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 2: the Alabama prison system. It's currently being sued by the 314 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 2: Department of Justice because of the unconstitutional conditions. It's incredibly 315 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: violent and understaffed, and there's a huge problem with contraband drugs. 316 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 2: When you first went into the system in eighty eight 317 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 2: and then you were eventually released in ninety nine, so 318 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: you were there late eighties all through the nineties. What 319 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 2: was the Alabama prison system like then? Walk me through, 320 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: Like what a typical day would have been. 321 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 3: A typical day. You get up and ate breakfast at 322 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 3: four five in the morning. By six or six thirty, 323 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 3: you have your bed made, now, your area cleaned up, 324 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 3: and you just wait to go to your job. Or 325 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 3: when I first got to Draper, I actually went out 326 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 3: on the farm. That's when they used to send guys 327 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 3: out on the farm to work. 328 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: What did you do? 329 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 3: You basically walked three or four miles carrying a hoe 330 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 3: or a heavy tool and you don't actually do a 331 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 3: whole lot of work. You do a lot of walking. 332 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 3: Did it's just something to get you out of the camp. 333 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 2: And did you get paid for that work? 334 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 3: No, you do not get paid. You get three meals 335 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 3: a day and some of those are marginal. 336 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: Wow. So that was like old school hard labor days. 337 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 3: I would say similar. 338 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that time was before the Supreme Court 339 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: had told Alabama that they couldn't put people on chain 340 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 2: gangs along the sides of the road. You didn't have 341 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: any experience with that, did you? The chain gang? Oh? 342 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 3: I wasn't on the chain gangs, but I do remember 343 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 3: some before they passed the law, they or when the 344 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 3: guys so what were they would change them to a 345 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 3: change them to a post hitching post? 346 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: Right? That was a separate case. And that was like 347 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: a disciplinary action, right that the officers would take for 348 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 2: if they felt like somebody was misbehaving or being non compliant. 349 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 2: Did you ever witness that while. 350 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 3: You were in oh I saw a lot of guys 351 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 3: chain to a chain to a post in ninety degree 352 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 3: weather and it was just it was just so inhumane. 353 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: What were the people like that you connected with in prison, 354 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 2: and you had never been to prison before, you'd never 355 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 2: been in trouble before. Did this change any of your 356 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,719 Speaker 2: thinking about the people that we send to prison or 357 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 2: people in general. 358 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 3: It made me choose people that had had like values 359 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 3: like mine, people who were straight up, who were honest. 360 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 3: There was a group that used to come in called Cairos. 361 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 3: It was a group of men from different denominations. And 362 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: what they do is they come in and they share 363 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: the Word of God with you, and their objective is 364 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 3: to build a Christian community within the prison walls. And 365 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 3: I still today I have relationships with some of these men, 366 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 3: and I have actually been back inside the prisons. And 367 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 3: because once I walk inside and I give a talk, 368 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 3: I'm in my element. You know. I can talk to 369 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 3: these guys and they actually listen to me because they 370 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 3: know that I know what they're going through every day 371 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 3: when they leave this religious service or whatever. I know 372 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 3: what they're going back to when they go back behind 373 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 3: the gate. 374 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, you've walked that walk. 375 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 3: And I just I feel like that, you know, when 376 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 3: I do that, I feel like God's using me at 377 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 3: that moment. 378 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: And just in the reporting that I do here in Alabama, 379 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: and I talk to a lot of people in the system. 380 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 2: Cairos comes up all the time because it's meant so 381 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 2: much to people and the men's and women's prisons. They 382 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: have these wonderful relationships with people on the outside that 383 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,120 Speaker 2: otherwise many of them don't have anybody, and so they're 384 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: Cairo's friends are really they become their community and their family. 385 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: I've seen Chiro's volunteers go testify at parole hearings on 386 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: behalf of people and be their support system when they 387 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 2: get out. So they do really great work. So let's 388 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 2: talk about the post conviction that ultimately got you out. 389 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 2: So you became eligible for parole in nineteen ninety seven, 390 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 2: and Alabama passed a law in ninety four where convicted 391 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: sex offenders had to give a DNA sample to database 392 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 2: statewide database that was part of state law. So you 393 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 2: filed a rule thirty two requesting that the evidence from 394 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 2: the rape case be compared to your DNA sample that 395 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: you had to give under law. How did you get 396 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: the idea to do that? 397 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 3: I thought, well, I don't have anything to lose. I 398 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 3: need to pursue any possibility of finding out the truth 399 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 3: that I can I had friends who knew more about 400 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 3: the law that I did, and I had a particular 401 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 3: friend file some rule thirty two for me to go 402 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 3: back to court on new evidence. He was at actually 403 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 3: eager to help me, and he wrote it up and 404 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 3: he charged me a little twenty five dollars maybe to 405 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 3: do it, and it got the ball rolling. 406 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 2: What was the process of working with this jail house attorney? 407 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 2: How did you guys do this work together? 408 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 3: Well, of course we talked about it, you know, and 409 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 3: the privacy of our dorm, and then you go to 410 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 3: the law library and talk about it some more, and 411 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 3: it's just somebody that you're comfortable. You know, they're not 412 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 3: in it to try to take all your money there 413 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 3: and to try to help you. 414 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: And I know these law libraries are not like normal 415 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: legal libraries in the free world, and you know, they 416 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: still have typewriters. They do not have computers in the 417 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 2: law libraries, and often don't have the latest legal books 418 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 2: for people. So it's an ongoing issue of prisons. So 419 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 2: where was the evidence stored from the actual incident that 420 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 2: you were convicted in the rape? 421 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 3: Well, it was supposed to be stored in Tuscaloosa somewhere where. 422 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 3: I don't know where they Tusaler's, the county jail or 423 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 3: wherever they do it. But they had said they lost 424 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 3: the rape kid, there was nothing to test, and then 425 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 3: all these years later, all of a sudden, it appears 426 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 3: so they actually had something to test, and they took 427 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: I remember they took blood at the prison. And I 428 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 3: remember a week or so later, I was called to 429 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 3: the warden's office and she was on the phone with 430 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 3: somebody at the pro board, and I could hear her 431 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 3: into the conversation say you know, yeah, yeah, And she 432 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 3: got off the phone and she said they got back 433 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 3: all the results from the DNA test and they were 434 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 3: all negative. And I can I can remember to this 435 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 3: day actually filling in week in the knees. I don't 436 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 3: ever remember being weak in the knees before, but I 437 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 3: was weak in the knees. And when she said that, 438 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 3: she said, but she also wanted to remind me that 439 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 3: you do have the other twenty five year centers. 440 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 2: So I have from the media reports that it was 441 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: ninety eight that the DA's office located the rape kit 442 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 2: that had been lost for twelve years. The DNA tests 443 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: were carried out, they excluded Jeff as the source excluded 444 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 2: you in the rape case, and then Judge England said, 445 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,239 Speaker 2: I see no reason to spend one minute longer on 446 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: this case. Do you remember hearing those words? 447 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 3: I do? 448 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 2: What was that like in court? And it's completely understandable 449 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: that you would be emotional because this is we're talking 450 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: like the most dramatic things a human being can go through, is, 451 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 2: you know, being accused of something they didn't do, being convicted, 452 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 2: serving over a decade, and then finally seeing the truth 453 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: come out. 454 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 3: It was pretty emotional to say the least, to know 455 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 3: that my prayers have been answered and I was getting 456 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 3: my life back. 457 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're twenty four years since then, and it 458 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 2: still affects you clearly. 459 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 3: Probably always will. 460 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you get that moment in court, and I believe 461 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: you were released the following day. You still had that 462 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: twenty five year sentence. So were you released on parole? 463 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: What was the actual mechanism that got you out of Oh? 464 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 3: I was given time served on that and released on parole. 465 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: What was the release from prison? 466 00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 3: Like? 467 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: Before you got out the community that you had been in, 468 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: what was the reaction from the folks that were doing 469 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: time with you? 470 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 3: They were ecstatic for me. They were so happy. I 471 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 3: remember walking out the door looking back one time, and uh, 472 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 3: because I left some some good friends. And when I 473 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 3: walked out the door, it was it was like a 474 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 3: feeling I'd never felt before, you know, I had. I'd 475 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 3: never walked out the front door of a prison. It 476 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 3: was always through the back gate. I didn't know what 477 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 3: it felt like to walk out the front door. And 478 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 3: I was nervous. And here I got, I got to 479 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 3: give a bunch of TV people interviews. You know, you 480 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 3: barely know what to say. I mean, I just said I. 481 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 3: You know, they want to know, are you bitter? No? 482 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 3: I just I thank God that I'm free. 483 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean a lot of people imagining what it 484 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 2: would be like, feel like they would be so angry 485 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 2: and hurt by this wrongdoing that had happened to them 486 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: that it's it's hard to imagine being positive or how 487 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: you wouldn't succumb to being bitter. How did you come 488 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: out with such a positive attitude. 489 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 3: Well, in the beginning, I wasn't so positive, you know, 490 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 3: And it took years and because I knew I was innocent, 491 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 3: and finally during the last year and a half, you know, 492 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 3: I did some soul searching, and I had a relationship, 493 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 3: a closer relationship with God. And and that's that's the 494 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 3: only way that I could. I could forgive and not 495 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 3: be hateful. I think once my heart changed, my circumstances 496 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,479 Speaker 3: started changing. 497 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 2: Was there anything when you got out that surprised you? 498 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: I always love hearing the stories about, you know, the 499 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: first things people people did, or they ate, or you know, 500 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 2: something that had changed that they weren't really prepared for. 501 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: You got out in ninety nine, what was the most 502 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: different from eighty seven when you went in? 503 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 3: So many things had changed. I remember the very first 504 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: thing soonin as we left the prison, we stopped to 505 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 3: get something to eat, and my dad gave me a 506 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 3: twenty dollar bill to go go in Taco Bell and 507 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 3: get some food. I'm looking at a twenty dollar bill 508 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 3: and it looked like play. I thought that would play money. 509 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 2: So the actual dollar bill had. 510 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 3: Changed, the twenty dollars bill had. 511 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 2: And you had Taco Bell for your first bife. 512 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 3: I did, what did you eat? 513 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: Do you remember? 514 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 3: I do not remember. All I remember is that I 515 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: knew I had a state marinating at home. But after 516 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 3: I'd been out three days and I got my driver's license. 517 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 3: So I go to the gas pump and the lady 518 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 3: tells me you could have swiped it at the pomp. 519 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 3: I had no idea what she meant, you can swipe 520 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 3: it at the pomp. That was That was beyond my comprehension. 521 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: That was a new language that had developed while you 522 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: were locked up. I love that your taco bell was 523 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 2: like a snack to get you to the stake that 524 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: was marinating. And how long were you on parole? 525 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 3: I was on parole about three years. But the funny 526 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 3: thing is when they first released me on parole, I 527 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,239 Speaker 3: was treated as a sex offender. I had to be 528 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 3: home at eleven o'clock at night. I had to call 529 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 3: and check in twice a week let him know I 530 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: was home. So even though I made parole, I was 531 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 3: still being treated as a sex avender. 532 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 2: So it was like, even though that conviction was vacated, 533 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: that word didn't make it to the parole board bureaucracy, 534 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: and they still thought that you had that conviction on you. 535 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 3: I don't know if they thought, but they knew the 536 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 3: conviction had been you know, everybody knew that, but I 537 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 3: was still treated like a sex offender. I had to 538 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 3: get permission if I needed to cross the state line 539 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 3: for anything. I had to have written permission tag number 540 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 3: where I was going to every the whole nine yards 541 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: if I needed to cross the state line for any reason. 542 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: Tell me about the work that you ended up doing 543 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 2: once you got out. A lot of people don't want 544 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 2: to have anything to do with prison or people in prison. 545 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: They want to like turn over a new leaf and 546 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 2: do something completely different, but you kind of did the opposite. 547 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: You started a ministry to help people coming out of prison. 548 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 3: And it's so funny you should ask that. Before I 549 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 3: got out, that was I used to be fine to 550 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 3: saying I don't ever want to see another prison. I 551 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 3: don't ever want to see anything another prisoner. And we 552 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 3: volunteered at a halfway house soon after I got out. 553 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 3: We were ex convicts, were starting their life over, and 554 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 3: I felt God telling me, then, this is what I 555 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 3: want you to do. So we started a process talking 556 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 3: to people, speaking in churches to do whatever we could 557 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 3: to open a halfway house, and we actually our daughter 558 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 3: thought the name of it, and it was House to Hope. 559 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 3: But to back up, When I got out of prison, 560 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 3: I went to my sister's single Sunday school class, and 561 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 3: I actually dated my Sunday school teacher for six months 562 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 3: and we got married and then that's when we volunteered 563 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 3: and started the ministry, which we had the ministry for 564 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 3: twelve years. And again that's my lucky number twelve twelve 565 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 3: years in prison, twelve years in the ministry helping men 566 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 3: coming out of prison. But it also took a toll 567 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 3: on my life, my marriage, and we end up closing 568 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 3: the ministry in twenty fifteen. 569 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 2: That's really tough work, and I know a lot of 570 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 2: people can burn out on it because it's so hard. 571 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 2: It's such a heavy lift. People have so many needs 572 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: coming out of prison that often are not in the 573 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 2: kind of situation you were in with family support and 574 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 2: some resources. A lot of people have nobody and nothing. 575 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: What were some of the challenges that you ran into 576 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: in doing that work helping folks coming out of the system. 577 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 3: Well, you got to help them get a job before 578 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 3: you get a job, You got to get IDs, You 579 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 3: got to or even had a dentist to volunteer to 580 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 3: do all the guy's teeth. He wanted to make them 581 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 3: presentable for work. It's all about, you know, starting off 582 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 3: about self esteem. But if you don't have anybody to 583 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 3: help you, anybody to give you a place to stay 584 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 3: or close, it's hard to make it from on scratch. 585 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 3: That's why so many guys go out there and go 586 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 3: to the easy dollar. You know, they go back to 587 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 3: selling drugs and the whole vicious cycle starts again. 588 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 2: We have such high expectations for people, but when they 589 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 2: need help, you know, a lot of folks are not 590 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 2: ready to step up. So I'm glad that you did 591 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,240 Speaker 2: that work for as long as you did. Wrongful Conviction 592 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 2: with Jason Flah usually ends each episode with what they 593 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 2: call closing arguments, so that's a chance for you to 594 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,399 Speaker 2: share any final thoughts, anything that I didn't ask you, 595 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 2: I will say, Jeff Holman, thank you so much for 596 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 2: sharing your story and for your incredible attitude after going 597 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 2: through such a horrific ordeal, and for the help that 598 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 2: you've given other people. 599 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 3: I would just say to anybody listening, or anybody who 600 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,959 Speaker 3: has loved ones or relatives going through this sort of thing, 601 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 3: just stay true to yourself, don't bow under to the system. 602 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 3: I knew I was innocent, and I projected innocence the 603 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 3: whole time. They wanted me to go through some school 604 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 3: one time, admit guilt and get a certificate, go through 605 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 3: and I said I wasn't gonna do it because I 606 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 3: wasn't guilty. I'm not going through some kind of sex 607 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 3: program to say I was guilty. So you put on 608 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 3: my record and I would not do it. And I 609 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 3: thank God today that I just waited on God. The 610 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 3: truth finally came out, and that's my family was so 611 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 3: supportive of me and helped me through it. And I 612 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 3: just thank God that I'm standing here today. And I 613 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 3: have to you know, even though I wasn't compensated for 614 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 3: those twelve years, I have my life back and that 615 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 3: means more than anything. 616 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host, 617 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 2: Beth Shelburne. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason 618 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: Flahm and Kevin Wardis. The Senior producer for this episode 619 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 2: is Jackie Paully, and our producers are Lila Robinson and 620 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 2: Jeff Clyburn. Our editor is Rooksandra Guiedy. The music in 621 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 2: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 622 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction 623 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 2: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast and on Twitter at 624 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 2: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 625 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 2: all three platforms, you can find me on Twitter at 626 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 2: b Shelbourne. I also write a substack about criminal justice 627 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: in Alabama. It's called Moth to Flame, and I'm busy 628 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 2: working on an investigative podcast for LAVA about the wrongful 629 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 2: conviction of to Forest Johnson, who has been on Alabama's 630 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 2: death row for twenty five years. Make sure to look 631 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 2: for that in early twenty twenty three. Wrongful Conviction is 632 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 2: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with 633 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: Signal Company Number one. 634 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,280 Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction, 635 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox will sit down with Heidi Goodwin to talk 636 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: about Haidee's time incarcerated for a crime that never happened 637 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,760 Speaker 1: at all. During their conversation, Heidi and Amanda will discuss 638 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: the junk science of shaking baby syndrome and the complications 639 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: of relying on testimony from elementary school age children. Amanda 640 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: is family to me and she is one of my 641 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: favorite journalists. She's become a really extraordinary podcaster and a 642 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: fighter for justice. Who I have a huge amount of 643 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: respect for. This is a mustlesten episode and you can 644 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: find it next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed