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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Karen had come out to Alpine, which is somewhat nearby,

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Speaker 2: and said, Hey, we're going to have a Fourth of

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Speaker 2: July barbecue. Come on by, and it being the fourth

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Speaker 2: of July, the same day the teens disappeared. She started

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Speaker 2: telling me about this story, and there's a couple of

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Speaker 2: things that really piqued my interest, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: I man, I'll take a look around. And once I

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Speaker 2: kind of poked around, I assaulved that it would be

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Speaker 2: a good podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. Here's our story this week

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Speaker 1: in the summer of nineteen eighty eight, sixteen year old

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Speaker 1: Shane Stewart and eighteen year old Sally McNelly went missing

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Speaker 1: in the West Texas town of San Angelo. After their

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Speaker 1: remains were found, the mystery began. Texas Monthly reporters Karen

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Speaker 1: Jacobs and Rob Demico pick up the cold case of

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Speaker 1: two murders that have haunted their family, their friends, and

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Speaker 1: generations of investigators. I talked with them about their podcast,

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Speaker 1: Shane and Sally. I wonder where it makes the most

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Speaker 1: sense for you to start with the story? Would it

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Speaker 1: be Shane and Sally and how they grew up kind

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Speaker 1: of separately and how they met.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they grew up.

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Speaker 2: Sally is slightly older, so Shane was about to turn seventeen.

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Speaker 2: He was a month away from being seventeen, and she

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Speaker 2: was eighteen. So they were a great apart. But they

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Speaker 2: both went to Central High School in Saint Angelo, which

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Speaker 2: is the one giant high school that everyone goes to.

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Speaker 2: San Angelo is kind of this weird place because it's

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Speaker 2: got one hundred thousand people and it probably had seventy

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Speaker 2: thousand plus back then in nineteen eighty eight, but it

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Speaker 2: still feels really small. Everyone knows each other, brumers get around,

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Speaker 2: so Sally and Shane eventually started dating, and in the

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Speaker 2: fall of eighty seven they got very close and got

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Speaker 2: to a point where they even both dropped out of school.

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Speaker 2: Sally was planning on going into the Navy, Shane was

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Speaker 2: content doing work for now, and they even moved into

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Speaker 2: an apartment in March of nineteen eighty eight, and then

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden boom, they broke up, and no

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Speaker 2: one knows exactly why, not even their friends really knew

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Speaker 2: what caused them to break up. They moved out of

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Speaker 2: the apartment, Shane went to work on a golf course

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Speaker 2: in Kansas with his brother for a construction project that

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Speaker 2: was temporary. Sally went out and did some various things

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Speaker 2: like selling chemicals in Lubbock, Texas. But they both came

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Speaker 2: back to Saint Angelo, Sally in April and then Shane

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Speaker 2: right before July fourth, and they kind of reignited their

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Speaker 2: love interest with each other, and by all indications from

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Speaker 2: friends at that time, they were sticking together and planning

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Speaker 2: a future together. So that's kind of the backdrop of

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Speaker 2: how they got together.

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Speaker 1: Did everybody's parents liked the other team when they got together?

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Speaker 1: Did the families get along. No, that's a short answer.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think Sally's parents liked Shane because he was

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Speaker 2: well manered, you know, a good looking young kid. He

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Speaker 2: was goofy fun, so they didn't sense any problem points.

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Speaker 2: But on the other side, and you know, when Sally

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Speaker 2: came along, as when Shane started having trouble in school,

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Speaker 2: got disinterested in his coursework, complained about teachers, and so

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Speaker 2: I think Marshall felt that, you know, he had this comment, oh,

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Speaker 2: now here we go a boyfriend and girlfriend. It's going

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Speaker 2: to be one of those kind of deals where things

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Speaker 2: aren't the same.

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Speaker 4: Early on that spring they moved in together and Marshall

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Speaker 4: didn't that. Marshall, Shane's father didn't think they should have

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Speaker 4: moved in together, and he went over there and said,

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Speaker 4: you know, you need to come home, and you're not

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Speaker 4: old enough and you're not adult, you're not ready to

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Speaker 4: do that. So I think that's kind of set a

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Speaker 4: bad tenor across the board with him.

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Speaker 1: But Sally was interested in going into the navy, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you would think that people who were attracted

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Speaker 1: to going into the military have aspirations and that didn't

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Speaker 1: translate over to Shane.

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Speaker 5: I guess, you know.

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Speaker 2: We asked Marshall's father about that, and he said that

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Speaker 2: he didn't openly vocally say like, here's my plans. He

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Speaker 2: just said he was content with working. Because their disappearance

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Speaker 2: happened so quickly after they got back together, I don't

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Speaker 2: think either of the parents said's got a good sense

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Speaker 2: of what was next. It was literally days from when

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Speaker 2: Shane got back until he went missing, So I think

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Speaker 2: it was just too soon for them to get that sense.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: Part of the story is that Sally had told friends

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Speaker 4: and even a police officer that she was wanted to

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Speaker 4: disassociate from people she'd be hanging out with, and that

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Speaker 4: she didn't want to be in that group anymore and

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Speaker 4: she wanted to get out of it, and then that

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Speaker 4: was part of her Shane's plan was to move on

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Speaker 4: and get out of this group and maybe even San Angelo.

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Speaker 4: So that definitely leads into well, what happened to them?

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Speaker 4: And why?

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Speaker 1: Well tell me about San Angelo in nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: What kind of a city is this and what kind

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Speaker 1: of teens are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: The city itself? Like I said, it seemed like a

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Speaker 2: like the biggest small town in Texas. But there were

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Speaker 2: a series of really violent crimes that happened all around

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Speaker 2: this time, and when people hear the podcast the day,

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Speaker 2: they're like, dang, I didn't know so Angela was so

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Speaker 2: messed up. There was a guy that killed an old

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Speaker 2: grandpa with strangling.

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Speaker 3: With the dog leash.

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Speaker 2: There was a guy that decided to poison old people

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Speaker 2: so that he could steal their money gradually all around

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Speaker 2: the same time as shaneon Sally. So there definitely were

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Speaker 2: some dangerous elements. What we see in this story is

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Speaker 2: this kind of these crop of teenagers coming along that

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Speaker 2: aren't that bad when we first see them, they get

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Speaker 2: arrested for pot possession or whatever, but they start graduating

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Speaker 2: into you like, armed robbery, beating people up, methamphetamine bus

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Speaker 2: things like that. So it's kind of like these people

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Speaker 2: that were around Shane and Sally were part of this

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Speaker 2: wave of the circle of their friends that was getting

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Speaker 2: in this kind of trouble.

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Speaker 1: What were their temperaments like before we move on to

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Speaker 1: the disappearance, what do you all know about their personalities

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Speaker 1: Shane and Sally.

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Speaker 4: Well, it seemed like Sally was really gregarious and outgoing

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Speaker 4: and popular. She seemed to have friends in different groups,

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Speaker 4: you know, and then loved to have a good time.

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Speaker 4: People told us stories about her running the games at

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Speaker 4: lunch at school and you know that sort of thing. Shane,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, Rob, what would you say, same like popular,

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Speaker 4: but in a different manner. Definitely younger than Sally and

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Speaker 4: really looked up to him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Another big difference is Sally, as social as.

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Speaker 3: She was, she liked to party.

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Speaker 2: She liked to go and drink and smoke some weed

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Speaker 2: and hang out with people and have fun. Shane, from

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Speaker 2: what we can tell, really didn't do any of that.

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Speaker 2: He didn't drink or smoke pot or if he did,

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Speaker 2: it was so minimal but no one really noticed.

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Speaker 3: But he did.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: He was a young team guy with.

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Speaker 3: A lot of bravado too, and he.

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Speaker 2: Ended up getting in a bunch of fights and things

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Speaker 2: that you know, young team guys often do. He bought

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Speaker 2: his prized possession of the camaro, you know, this burnt

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Speaker 2: orange colored Camaro with a big black stripe down the hood,

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Speaker 2: and it was his pride and joy. So you know,

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Speaker 2: he had a little bit of outlaw nature and him,

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Speaker 2: but mainly.

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Speaker 3: Was just a good kid.

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Speaker 4: And we'd cover in the podcast that there was a

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Speaker 4: group called the Lost Boys that I guess nineteen eighty

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Speaker 4: seven movie with Keeper Southerland end and Shane had cut

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Speaker 4: his hair and bleached a blonde to look more like

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Speaker 4: that character.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he started wearing all black, and you know, that

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Speaker 2: was about the time he started dating Sally, And that's

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Speaker 2: another reason Marshall was kind of like, oh, what's going

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Speaker 2: on with my son? Yeah, and Shane's brother noticed it too,

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Speaker 2: But they did have this kind of adventurous kind of

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Speaker 2: spirit to him, like Shane did.

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Speaker 3: He's part of this Lost Boys group.

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Speaker 2: They would hang out on this place called the Drag

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Speaker 2: in San Angelo, which is the one road where everyone

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Speaker 2: on Friday night drives down it one way, then drives

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Speaker 2: down it the other way, on and on, just to

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Speaker 2: see who's out hanging.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's a lot of Texas towns or like that, Okay,

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Speaker 2: And so the Lost Boys would meet up on the

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Speaker 2: Drag and hang out, and they said that they were

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Speaker 2: there to keep the peace and do good. But it

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Speaker 2: was kind of a strange moniker to assume of these

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Speaker 2: a group of vampires that are supposed to be doing good.

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Speaker 2: Shane was also in the Dungeons and Dragons of course

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Speaker 2: that leads into the conversation on Satanism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there are a lot of motivations that I had

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Speaker 1: picked up on in the podcast for what people say

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Speaker 1: might have happened, and Satanism was one of those.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I've seen some commentary online about

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Speaker 2: the podcast, most of it favorable, but a lot of

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Speaker 2: people who were like I rolled my eyes because here

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Speaker 2: they are bringing Satanism into it again, the Satanic Bannic,

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Speaker 2: How stupid, how cliche. And I think by the time

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Speaker 2: they get to episode four where they talk about one

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Speaker 2: of these key figures that was supposedly this could guy,

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Speaker 2: I think the listener I realized that there was something

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Speaker 2: going on here that wasn't just what the parents were

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Speaker 2: talking about. That some of these kids did take it

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Speaker 2: to the next level, and so it was a factor.

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Speaker 4: A key thing that always stuck out for me is

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Speaker 4: where they found the remains in this bumpy road really

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Speaker 4: hard to drive down off by a dam. There were

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Speaker 4: burnt remains of a cat also found there. So you

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Speaker 4: know that to me is more than just a coincidence.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the fourth of July nineteen eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: Take me through wherever it makes sense to start about

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Speaker 1: when things really start going badly here.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty easy actually, because there's not many sightings of

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Speaker 2: Shane and Sally.

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Speaker 3: There's one person.

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Speaker 2: That saw them leaving the fireworks which were held at

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Speaker 2: this kind of middle of town called Lake Nasworthy and

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Speaker 2: as stuck in traffic. Then they are spotted at Ousi

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Speaker 2: Fisher Lake, which is kind of this more remote, empty,

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Speaker 2: you know, kind of area by a reservoir, by a

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Speaker 2: fisherman who was in a boat on the channel, and

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Speaker 2: they saw Shane and Sally hanging out, leaning up against

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Speaker 2: their car, and then this pickup truck pulls up they

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Speaker 2: described as like a slightly lifted four x four with

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Speaker 2: KC lights those lights on the top of the cab,

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Speaker 2: and the fishermen witnessed these two guys in this truck

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Speaker 2: get into an argument with Shane and Sally. The only

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Speaker 2: thing the fisherman could hear was Sally say something like, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to do it, you know, fighting with them, and the

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Speaker 2: truck pulls away, and that's the last time anyone saw

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Speaker 2: Shane and Sally. We know for a fact because they

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Speaker 2: later found a Waterburger receipt in their car that was

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Speaker 2: stamped eleven forty pm, so they likely left the fireworks,

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Speaker 2: went to Waterburger, and if you map it out, that

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Speaker 2: twenty minutes later around midnight, they're at oc Fisher as far.

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Speaker 3: As finding the car.

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Speaker 2: The next day, a lake ranger about seven am is

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Speaker 2: patrolling along the lake and sees this Camaro. There's no

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Speaker 2: one around, The doors open the driver's side door, gets out,

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Speaker 2: looks there's keys on the dash, no one around, and

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Speaker 2: he thinks, ah, someone just went off to pee or something.

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Speaker 2: But when no one shows up, he runs the plates,

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Speaker 2: tracks it back to Marshall Stewart and calls Marshall. He

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Speaker 2: knows them, like so many people in St Angelo know

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Speaker 2: each other. And Marshall gets out there and he of

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Speaker 2: course was aware that the teens hadn't come home the

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Speaker 2: night before, and he was very upset and he said

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Speaker 2: something's wrong, but the police just kind of seemed to

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Speaker 2: discount that there was a problem here. Their theory was

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Speaker 2: that the teens went off ran away to get married,

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Speaker 2: which in hindsight, is really stupid. A sixteen year old's

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Speaker 2: not going to leave his priced Camaro six miles outside

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Speaker 2: of town and walks somewhere to get married and leave

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Speaker 2: his keys in the dash. So that's kind of what

248
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Speaker 2: started everything.

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Speaker 4: But even then, it took days before they really started

250
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Speaker 4: acting like they were missing. You know, they let Marshall

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Speaker 4: took that car home and didn't really do much about it.

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Speaker 4: Marshall started asking questions, but the police really didn't for

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Speaker 4: another couple of days. They told him to go ahead

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Speaker 4: and bring that car back and we'll take a look

255
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Speaker 4: and see what we see, and then they declared them missing.

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Speaker 4: So it took a while.

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Speaker 1: Did Sally's parents contact Marshall and did they work together

258
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Speaker 1: on this or were there differing opinions?

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Speaker 2: They were in touch, but they didn't work together. Sally's

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Speaker 2: parents were in a pretty tough situation with Sally's stepdad

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Speaker 2: and her mom. Her mom had just had a new baby.

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Speaker 2: They had a new baby together and it was four

263
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Speaker 2: months old, and so they were dealing with trying to survive.

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Speaker 2: Pat was working extreme amount of hours per week Sally's mom.

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Speaker 2: But Marshall just kind of leapt on it right away

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Speaker 2: and started his own investigation.

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Speaker 1: Where does the investigation start, Fishermen, I know you've got

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Speaker 1: an ear witness at least and somebody who's, you know,

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Speaker 1: seeing two men in a truck. Is this fisherman the

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Speaker 1: last person who's seen them alive?

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Speaker 2: We think correct, he is the last person. Unfortunately, this witness.

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Speaker 2: It's actually two fishermen, but one is kind of the

273
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Speaker 2: most outspoken. He doesn't come back and report this until

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Speaker 2: the spring of nineteen eighty nine, and so the police

275
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Speaker 2: when they first started investigating, didn't even have that information.

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Speaker 2: There was a lake ranger who saw their car shortly

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Speaker 2: before that out at the lake, but that didn't provide

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Speaker 2: much detail. So why that fisherman waited to come forward

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Speaker 2: so long. It's kind of a mystery, and we'd have

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Speaker 2: to probably talk for an hour about it because there

281
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Speaker 2: are some weird things about it. But he said, oh,

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Speaker 2: I just finally saw it on TV and I told

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Speaker 2: the story to someone and I said, you probably should

284
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Speaker 2: go to the police with that.

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Speaker 4: The second fishermen substantiated it, but they had different time frames,

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Speaker 4: so there were two they just didn't completely match.

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Speaker 1: Their stories was one before waterburger and one after. One

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Speaker 1: was oh, that's a problem.

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Speaker 2: The key witness that first came forward was going to

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Speaker 2: Randall Littlefield and he said it was definitely around midnight.

291
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Speaker 2: They were checking their trot lines on the lake and

292
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Speaker 2: it was late. The rangers eventually found the other fishermen

293
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Speaker 2: and he said, no, it was around dusk.

294
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Speaker 5: Well that's a six hour difference.

295
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Speaker 2: I know we were both drinking, but Littlefield was drunker

296
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Speaker 2: than me. Even though little Field was drinking, we kind

297
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 2: of put more stock in his story because it made

298
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Speaker 2: sense with the fireworks and water burger and everything else.

299
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Speaker 1: So, so you all think the fishermen are the last

300
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Speaker 1: people aside from the killers, who could potentially be these

301
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Speaker 1: two guys in the truck to see them alive, that's the.

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Speaker 5: Timeline you think makes sense?

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Speaker 3: Correct?

304
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Speaker 1: Well, I was thinking dusk actually in Texas in July

305
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Speaker 1: could be like nine pm or something, So I'm not

306
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 1: that Maybe they're not that far off from each other.

307
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 1: Who knows, it's a true point. Yeah, okay, So what

308
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Speaker 1: happens next. The Marshall is on top of things, Sally's

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Speaker 1: parents are juggling a new baby, and the police, the

310
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Speaker 1: San Angelo police take how long you think seventy two

311
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Speaker 1: hours or longer to finally take this seriously.

312
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was.

313
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Speaker 4: Definitely a few days and even then so they called

314
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Speaker 4: it missing but then they still didn't do much like

315
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,680
Speaker 4: we do have some of the police reports, not all

316
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 4: of them, and some of its summaries, but there's very

317
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:36,800
Speaker 4: little notation about who they talked to. And Marshall did

318
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Speaker 4: a lot of it. Both sets of parents took a

319
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Speaker 4: lot of notes and answered calls, got recording machine, you know,

320
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Speaker 4: to answer anyone that called, and turned it all over.

321
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Speaker 4: And that's something that was really interesting throughout the whole

322
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Speaker 4: thing is that almost everything we asked about that the

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Speaker 4: parents said they had read or turned in, the current

324
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,560
Speaker 4: sheriff's office says they don't have anymore. A lot of

325
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,240
Speaker 4: that stuff is just missing, and they, you know, they

326
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,399
Speaker 4: inherited all this stuff, so they don't really know what

327
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Speaker 4: happened in that first time frame either.

328
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Speaker 2: One key indication of what was going on was, you know,

329
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Speaker 2: Marshall decides, I'm going to go start knocking on doors

330
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Speaker 2: of all these teen friends see if I can figure

331
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Speaker 2: out what happens. He knocks on the door of a

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Speaker 2: one guy named Steve Shaeffer who was friends originally with Shane,

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Speaker 2: and this was on a day or two after the

334
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 2: teens went missing. Steve Shaeffer opens the door with a

335
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Speaker 2: welt on his face, like forming of a black eye,

336
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Speaker 2: like he'd been in a fight, and that sets Marshall off,

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Speaker 2: thinking immediately that he might have been.

338
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Speaker 3: Involved in something.

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00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,119
Speaker 2: But yet we do have a police report record that

340
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 2: they interviewed Steve Shaeffer about it on July sixteenth, so

341
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,760
Speaker 2: like a full ten days later after Marshall reported that.

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Speaker 2: He kind of gives you an indication that they weren't

343
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Speaker 2: taking it seriously yet.

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Speaker 1: And do you think that your interaction with the San

345
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:01,479
Speaker 1: Angelo police now or the Sheriff's apartment, is it just

346
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,199
Speaker 1: they don't care about the case or what's there. How

347
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,360
Speaker 1: would you summarize their general attitude toward journalists now who

348
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:08,560
Speaker 1: were approaching the story.

349
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Speaker 4: I think they really really care and are incredibly frustrated,

350
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Speaker 4: and like I said, originally this was opened up to

351
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Speaker 4: help them. Like I worked really closely with Nick Hanna.

352
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Speaker 4: He was a Texas ranger at the time. It was

353
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Speaker 4: before he was a sheriff. It definitely added some complication

354
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Speaker 4: that he's now the sheriff and it's it's basically on

355
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Speaker 4: his docket now, whereas a ranger's he was coming in,

356
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Speaker 4: you know, swooping in to save it basically. But Terry

357
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 4: Lowe has done a lot of work. He's very forthcoming,

358
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Speaker 4: he tells us a lot. They met with us. I

359
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 4: think there, you know, we're a little curious of like, well,

360
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,480
Speaker 4: what's your goal? They asked us multiple times, are you

361
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Speaker 4: trying to tell a sensational story? And we just tried

362
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 4: to convince him it's like, no, that we are trying

363
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Speaker 4: to get the truth out and get people to talk

364
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,040
Speaker 4: to us. And they answered every But I think they're

365
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,520
Speaker 4: very interested in solving it. I think they care and

366
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 4: want it done. What would you.

367
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,879
Speaker 2: Say, Rob, I have a slightly different view on that.

368
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,480
Speaker 3: I think that they care for sure.

369
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Speaker 2: And I think that the lieutenant Lowe, he was a

370
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,159
Speaker 2: lieutenant with the Sheriff's office that came along in twenty

371
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 2: thirteen to investigate the case. He's retired now, but we

372
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 2: talked with him extensively. I mean, it's clear that he

373
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 2: did an amazing work and looked at every piece of evidence,

374
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 2: every note again and again, interviewed people constantly. But I

375
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 2: think when we came along, you know, twenty twenty three,

376
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 2: I think they had this sense, well, yeah, we'll cooperate

377
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 2: with him because there's nothing better than getting the word out.

378
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,159
Speaker 2: Again maybe something will come in new. But when we

379
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 2: started asking hard questions, I think they became a lot

380
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 2: more hesitant and I'm a lot more reluctant to participate,

381
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 2: and we had some kind of come to Jesus moments

382
00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:59,640
Speaker 2: with the sheriff.

383
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,280
Speaker 4: My guess, though, is that really Rob did ask really hard,

384
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 4: specific questions that they couldn't answer. And my guess is

385
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,400
Speaker 4: that they're taking that and actually digging back in. They're

386
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 4: not going to tell us that, and I don't think

387
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 4: they'll tell us what they find immediately, but I think

388
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:23,000
Speaker 4: Rob definitely poked the investigative hornets nest and they were

389
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,680
Speaker 4: forced to face it, you know, So I think they're

390
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,439
Speaker 4: glad to have it, but they're not going to let

391
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:28,959
Speaker 4: Rob now.

392
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 2: I wonder, though, because you try to I think about

393
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 2: that too, you know, are they now like digging in

394
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,679
Speaker 2: again a deeper? And there's another facet that we can

395
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,720
Speaker 2: talk about, which is the possible involvement of a cold

396
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 2: case unit out of the Attorney General's office. But one

397
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 2: indicator to me is that I can keep in contact

398
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 2: with all these sources, the former cops, the friends of

399
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,240
Speaker 2: one of the suspects, and no one has indicated new

400
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 2: people that I've turned up the sheriff to know about.

401
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 2: No one has indicated that anyone has given them a

402
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:04,320
Speaker 2: phone call or anything.

403
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,880
Speaker 1: So yeah, I would be defensive too, I guess if

404
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 1: that were the case.

405
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 4: Well, and they're quick to say St. Angelo is still

406
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 4: a small town but with a lot of crime, like

407
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 4: we've got a lot on our hands.

408
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 1: Well, and these wouldn't be of course, the first teens

409
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: to run off. I know, the Camaro. That's a big thing,

410
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 1: and that's part of victimology is figuring out that there's

411
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 1: no way Shane would have dished this car that I'm

412
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: sure he worked really hard for or spent a lot

413
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: of time on. But the flip side is, if you're

414
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 1: trying to solve all of these crimes, very violent crimes,

415
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: maybe two teens who had broken up and gotten together

416
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 1: and you know all of this, maybe hopefully statistically they

417
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 1: would turn back up. So let's go back real quick

418
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 1: to the story Steve. Did we find out where this

419
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: welt came from? On Steve's eye?

420
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 3: We did not.

421
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 2: We've never had a long, solid interview to ask Steve

422
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: everything that we wanted to. There's a brief interview on

423
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,040
Speaker 2: his porch he communicated with us.

424
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 3: I text a few times. He gave us his diary.

425
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, hundreds of pages of stuff, but there's no

426
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 2: indication about that specific black guy. I did talk to

427
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 2: one of his friends, a guy named Levi Ball, who

428
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 2: unfortunately just died this last June, two weeks after I

429
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 2: talked to him from flesh eating Bacteria, and he was

430
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 2: kind of mixed up with this group that was a

431
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 2: little bit dabbling in the Satanist stuff, although he said

432
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 2: he wasn't. But there's a police report that says that

433
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 2: Levi told the police Steve Schaeffer came over to his

434
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 2: house on July fifth and had a black eye. And

435
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 2: when I talked to Levi today, he said, that's not true.

436
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: I never saw Steve with a black eye. But you

437
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 2: know it's been thirty five years, you know who knows.

438
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 5: Well, take me through the theories.

439
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: The police are now alarmed, and you know, the parents

440
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: are alarmed, and we haven't found their bodies yet. So

441
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,719
Speaker 1: what happens after these few days? Who are they talking

442
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: to because they don't know about the fishermen yet.

443
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 3: Right, so they find the bodies. That's kind of the point.

444
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: Obviously, when the full scale investigation launches. You know, the

445
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: Sheriff's Department has two lead investigators on it, and another

446
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: deputy DPS sends a special investigator. The Texas Ranger comes

447
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 2: in and they're just like interviewing, interviewing, you know, every

448
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 2: kid that they had any contact with them. And unfortunately,

449
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 2: that's where the cluster, you know what, starts to form.

450
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 2: Because these kids, they're teenagers, they all go to the

451
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,639
Speaker 2: same high school around town. They start telling these elaborate,

452
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: wild stories of what they heard rather than what they

453
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 2: knew specifically, and so it became this chaotic jumble. But

454
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: when we did have you know, a couple hundred pages

455
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 2: of Ranger case files on this, and the same guys

456
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 2: started surfacing again and again in all these interviews. And

457
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: that was the Eve Shaeffer, the guy with the black guy,

458
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 2: guy named Jimmy Burnett, who Sally had had some love

459
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 2: interest with, a guy named John Gilberth who's found with

460
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 2: some strange items in twenty seventeen in his house related

461
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 2: to the case. And a guy named Heath Davis who

462
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: is just kind of a somewhat low level drug distributor

463
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: but with some rather wild and violent.

464
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 4: Tendencies and Also in those files are a lot of

465
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 4: notes like Rob was saying that these are kids, they're

466
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 4: out partying, you know, and they talk about I was

467
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 4: at this party with this person. But then person B

468
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 4: says something entirely different, you know, like all the reports

469
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 4: are all contradictory, so they're you know, they never had

470
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 4: corroborating stories, and so when they're talking to people, they're

471
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 4: just you know, there's nowhere.

472
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 5: To go with.

473
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 4: That's that's what the Sheriff's office says. Now, it's like

474
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 4: it's you know, they just can't align all this. And

475
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 4: then the stories they do have, they're all partiers, they're

476
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 4: known drug users supposedly, and they feel like they're not trustworthy.

477
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: Either, and they're all kind of like reporting on each

478
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 2: other on the whole Satanic angle. So on those four

479
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: guys I mentioned, Schaeffer, Gilbert, Jimmy Burnett, Pete Davis, they

480
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 2: all knew each other and they might not have hung around,

481
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: you know, real close, but they were in different times together.

482
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: And one asked if they were involved in Satanism. They're like, oh, no,

483
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: but so and so for sure is and I know

484
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,680
Speaker 2: all about it. I know they do these rituals and

485
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: then so we go back and forth between them. Were

486
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 2: supposedly no one was involved in the could but everyone

487
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 2: said all the others were involved in the occult.

488
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: Since we're talking about the satanic panic and the occult

489
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,119
Speaker 1: and stuff, let's talk about the bodies. So how long

490
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: before we find the bodies and where were they and

491
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: what were the conditions and is there a cause of death?

492
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 5: In all of those details.

493
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 4: The skeletal remains were found out at Twin Beach Reservoir,

494
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 4: which is a good twenty minute drive from where the

495
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 4: Camaro was us so off deserted road, dirt road, very

496
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 4: rough road. A hunter was out with his dog, and

497
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 4: there's conflicting stories on how they found it, but the

498
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 4: dog supposedly sniffed it out and the hunter went to

499
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 4: find a skull, so the police came out. They determined

500
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 4: that was Sally by her clothes. The local shriff's department

501
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 4: took the remains, took them to the medical examiner, and

502
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 4: the medical examiner said, you're missing some teeth. You know,

503
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 4: often in the decay and decomposition, things aren't all together,

504
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 4: So go go find those. So they went two days

505
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 4: later and it was at that point that they found

506
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 4: Chain's remains, so they were seventy five feet apart. You know,

507
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 4: that's the first question. It's like, why would they not

508
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 4: look for the other ones? And you know I did

509
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 4: speak with Sheriff Davy Jones, who's now passed away, but

510
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen I spoke to him because that's when

511
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 4: he got involved, is when the remains were found. And

512
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 4: he said that's when he really stepped in because he

513
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 4: could just tell there, you know, they're not doing the

514
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 4: job here. He started making all the case for files

515
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 4: and really documenting everything. But they were skeletal, they weren't buried.

516
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 4: The clothes were lined up as they wore them. They

517
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: had a few branches laying over them. One of the

518
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 4: key pieces of evidence is that a stetson hat pin

519
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 4: was left on a branch over Shane's body. But we

520
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 4: have photos from the police department, really out of focus,

521
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 4: where you see a police officer holding it with his

522
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 4: bare hands. And then there's things in Shane's pockets, the

523
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 4: D and D plate tokens, what are they called, figurines,

524
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 4: eleven dollars, you know, some jewelry. But that was in November,

525
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 4: I think November seventeenth, so from July to November. They've

526
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 4: been laying out there.

527
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 2: Of course, it was odd that, you know, today's sheriff

528
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 2: hand is like Shakes said, why didn't they look for

529
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: Shane because they found Sally or they didn't look hard enough.

530
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: There's just some other odd things like Shane's wearing his boots,

531
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 2: Sally's shoes are missing, they were never found anywhere. Some

532
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: little odd things about that. There were shot close range

533
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: with a twenty gate shotgun. We're not going to say

534
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: where because it's one detail or withholding on the case,

535
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 2: but it was rather unusual and both this exact same

536
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: manner of being shot and.

537
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 4: The remains of that cat. So there's a hand drawing

538
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 4: that's a police officer did and it shows a circle.

539
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 4: We're a little fire with the remains of a cat

540
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 4: is right there.

541
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: That's the first time I've ever done an open record's

542
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: request to a medical examiner for a cat autopsy?

543
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 5: Do we know what happened to the cat?

544
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 3: They said they had no responsive records.

545
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: Okay, is this the whole basis for the Satanic connection?

546
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 5: Is this cat?

547
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: There was plenty of other stories that these teens were telling.

548
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 2: These teams going to ritual sites, reading from the Book

549
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: of the Dead and what sounded like Spanish had you know,

550
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: all kinds of crazy stuff. It expands from there, like

551
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: people down south of Saint Angelo that supposedly found it

552
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 2: upside down cross in their yard, you know, porn rituals

553
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: going on with kids, and all kinds of crazy stuff.

554
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: I think the one thing that kind of solidified it

555
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: for some of the investigators, particularly later ones like Hannah

556
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: and low was Steve Schaeffer's house.

557
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 3: When we visited it. Do you want to tell what

558
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: it looked like here?

559
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 4: Well, Lieutenant Lowe called it a Hansel and gretelhouse. It's

560
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 4: a stone you know, cobbled together rock, all different sizes.

561
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: It'd be cute if you cleaned it up, but it's

562
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 4: got vines and dead trees. Like to this day it

563
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 4: still looks pretty bad, and we have photos from when

564
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 4: they visited in twenty sixteen. But inside of it, the

565
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 4: walls were black. There were pentagra painted on the wall.

566
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 4: There was some sort of device on the wall where

567
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 4: you could hang things or hook things on, so they

568
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 4: thought that was iffy. I think there was a red door,

569
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 4: and there was Toro cards and candles and mirrors on

570
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 4: the floor, and then also a bunch of, according to them,

571
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 4: creepy horror type movies. But then we found out more

572
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 4: about that house.

573
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was kind of a little bit ludicrous

574
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: because the investigators, it was January twenty fifteen, then went

575
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 2: in and I think, but they see all this stuff

576
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 2: and they I guess they just assumed the house had

577
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: been abandoned and was left that way by Steve Shaeffer.

578
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: But he moved out in two thousand and four.

579
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: So since that time, we tracked down who lived there,

580
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: and I talked to one of the guys.

581
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: It was some young guys.

582
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: Their father had died in the house, so they were left,

583
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: but they were old enough to live alone. He's like, yeah,

584
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 2: we those were all our movies. We were super into

585
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: death metal, the Pentagram imagery. It's just fun innocence. And

586
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: so then it becomes a question of, you know, what

587
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: was really Steve's house, like when he owned it. There

588
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: was a neighbor who came forward and told these tales

589
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: of having to go into this house when Steve lived

590
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: there to assist with some pet snakes that needed taken

591
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: care of when he was in jail, and she describes

592
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: a giant mural of Satan on the wall, and stuff

593
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: actually hanging on the walls, like knives and chains and saws,

594
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: and you know, hearing animals scream and shriek over a

595
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: fire in the back of his yard. So you know,

596
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: it's one of those things you don't know what.

597
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 3: To believe exactly.

598
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: Steam didn't had young kids that eventually came along this

599
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: house and the relative set. We never would have let

600
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 2: him have his house like that. I went in there,

601
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,239
Speaker 2: there was nothing like that, But there could have been

602
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: little time periods before he had kids and those relatives

603
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: for visiting when maybe he did kind of have something

604
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: going on there.

605
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 4: But there was for sure a long time with a

606
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 4: whole different family in that house before Lieutenant Loan Nick

607
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 4: Hanna saw it. So when we brought that up to them,

608
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 4: they didn't really respond.

609
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 3: I kind of gave them an out. I said, well,

610
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 3: it still was creepy.

611
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, creepy.

612
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: Am I naive though in thinking I did not think

613
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: shotguns would be involved in the Satanic ritual of some kind.

614
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 1: That doesn't seem like a weapon.

615
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 5: But am I wrong?

616
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: I mean, was that doesn't seem to line up with

617
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: what I thought would be involved with.

618
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: That yeah, I think you know, that's why they discount

619
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: the Satanic angles as a main motivation for the killings. Today,

620
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: Hannah says, it's going to come down to things that

621
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: always does. Drugs, money, sex, and those things were in

622
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: play with these guys, he said, probably all of them more,

623
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: and that's what led to our death. Of course, we

624
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: have a rather different theory than those simple, kind of

625
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: simple things.

626
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: How long did this investigation last before it was considered

627
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: to be cold.

628
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 4: Well, when I first started talking to Nick Hanna in

629
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, he told us the story of the Satanic Angle.

630
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 4: But at the same time he said, we don't put

631
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 4: too much credence in that now. You know, at the time,

632
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 4: police are trained in how to see this stuff, you know,

633
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 4: like they were really pushing it, so it was a

634
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 4: thing and obvious thing for them to look at. But

635
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 4: now that I think they put a lot less into that.

636
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 4: But they still keep Steve Schaeffer on the list because

637
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 4: of those reasons. So again it's a contradictory. I don't

638
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 4: know anymore on the Satanic panic. I mean, there are

639
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 4: people in the town that go, oh, yeah, I remember that,

640
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 4: and then we have other people to say I've never

641
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 4: heard anything about that, you know.

642
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: I think eventually, as they went into the nineties, they

643
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: started getting enough evidence on these suspects that made these

644
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 2: more simple motivations more clear. And it's really frustrating to

645
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,760
Speaker 2: look back at some of these things and think about

646
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: why they didn't do more than they did. What they

647
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: say about the time was that they just didn't have

648
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: enough evidence that was credible from these kids to ever

649
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 2: put them in front of a grand jury or Jerry.

650
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 2: But you know, like with John Gilberth, he took two

651
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: young teen girls out to O C. Fisher Lake and

652
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: kind of panamized how he shot the teens and then

653
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: went home and showed him his shotgun.

654
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 3: But the police said, well, we.

655
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: Know they weren't killed at OC Fisher, We don't think

656
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: they were killed at Twin Beautes, So why even do

657
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: anything with this guy? So they didn't search his house

658
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: or do anything. Jimmy Burnette was the most frustrating for

659
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 2: us because he a girlfriend that he was tormenting and beating,

660
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: and he basically she was trying to break up with him,

661
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: and he took her out and showed her two photos

662
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: that he said were Shane and Sally and she saw

663
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,959
Speaker 2: these photos of dead bodies in a field. He also

664
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 2: returned the night of July fourth, and the next day

665
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: that told her to wash his truck and there was

666
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:19,839
Speaker 2: blood in the.

667
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: Bag, all kinds of other things.

668
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: And yet they never got a search warn for him either.

669
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: He Davis not so much evidence. But right after Shane

670
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: was killed, he started wearing a black stets and the

671
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 2: cowboy hat. It's that trace back to the stetson and

672
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: Steve Schaeffer. I think they're just they kind of fashioned

673
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: him into this cult like horrendous person, and I think

674
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: they were trying to pen the sonomon every point that

675
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 2: he knew more than he did. But I think after

676
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: this mid nineties point, when they didn't go after search

677
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: Warrens and the case was growing older and older, I

678
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: think they just started letting it fade because there was

679
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:58,439
Speaker 2: nothing new.

680
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 4: And another thing we haven't touched on is Unsolved Mysteries

681
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 4: did a show in May of eighty nine, right that

682
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 4: it was ninety one, oh ninety one, so much longer. Yeah,

683
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 4: But it wasn't until that show came out that it

684
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 4: was public news that three months before they went missing,

685
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 4: Sally had called Larry Counts in the Sheriff's office and

686
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 4: said she had a gun that came from a group

687
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 4: of people she didn't want to hang out with anymore,

688
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 4: and the gun was involved in a murder and she

689
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 4: wanted to turn it in. So he met with them,

690
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 4: went to their apartment, and this all came out to

691
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 4: the public and the unsolved mysteries, But he went to

692
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 4: their apartment, played himself in the unsolved mysteries of taking

693
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 4: it and also talked to them about the satanic stuff.

694
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 4: And then he writes in reports and also told Rob

695
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 4: and me that he went to different sites with them

696
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 4: to see where this satanic stuff happened. So that was

697
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 4: part of the early story too. You know, I think

698
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 4: the key thing is that she had a gun she

699
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 4: didn't want that was involved in a crime and she

700
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 4: turned it in. So one thing Nick Hanna really questioned

701
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 4: is when they went missing, Deputy Counts was one of

702
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 4: the people there with the car that decided, oh that

703
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 4: maybe they went and got married, and he didn't mention

704
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,479
Speaker 4: that she had turned this gun in at that time,

705
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 4: So that created this big question mark of people looking

706
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 4: now that has to be tied in. You know, who

707
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 4: knew about this gun, like Rob can go deep into

708
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 4: this story, but you know, I think he sent it

709
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 4: off on that satanic story too. Larry counts the.

710
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 2: Gun is the most important thing in this case. Just

711
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: what he boil everything down, that's real simple. Sally gives

712
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department Larry Kunt's the deputy the gun supposed

713
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: to used it a murder in March of nineteen eighty eight,

714
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 2: and three months later she's dead. So it kind of

715
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: seems important. But not only did the teens go missing,

716
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: but the gun has gone missing.

717
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 3: It is nowhere. No one has it.

718
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 2: They initially said they had no reports on it, no evidence.

719
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 3: Tags of it. Going from the.

720
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: Sheriff's office to the police officer department. What happened was

721
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 2: counts Today he tells us he remembered thinking it was

722
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: involved and the gun was involved in the murder of

723
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: the owner of the Red Bandana gay bar, and so

724
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: he's like, huh, the police would be investigating that.

725
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 3: So I'm going to give it to the police.

726
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: So in March into eighty eight, he gives the gun

727
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 2: to the police, and as we've said, there's no police

728
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: records on it.

729
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 3: Nothing.

730
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: Now, this is kind of the most crucial thing in

731
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 2: Texas a month. It was like, we can't tell this story.

732
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: It's too complicated. No one's going to know what.

733
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 3: The hell is going on.

734
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 2: But so the Red Bandana owners be Gouy named Steven's

735
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 2: was killed in September of eighty seven, two bullets into him.

736
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: They found shellcasings and the bolts in his body and

737
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 2: determined that the gun that killed him was a twenty

738
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 2: five caliber Raven brand automatic pistol. Okay, So from September

739
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 2: through the next spring, they're looking for a Raven twenty

740
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 2: five all around San Angelo. They found a couple and

741
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: they tested them ballistically and they didn't match the murder weapon.

742
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: So they're on the lookout for it. So Sally comes

743
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 2: along in March and turns in a Raven twenty five

744
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: caliber automatic pistol. So that immediately set off alarm bells

745
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: with me, it's the same kind of gun. But I'm

746
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: like they were kind of ubiquitous their Saturday night specials.

747
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: Maybe they turned in the gun and some police officer

748
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: pocketed it or they blew.

749
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 3: It off from I'm like, no big deal.

750
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 2: We initially, Sheriff Hannah Lieutenant Lowe told us and Larry

751
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: counts to this day cannot remember who he gave the gun.

752
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 3: To, the police department.

753
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: He says Sheriff Hannah refused to tell us. We kept

754
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 2: badgering him and badgering him, and finally he sent us

755
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 2: a snippet of council report saying at the time, I

756
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 2: gave the gun to a detective Larry Massey. So then

757
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 2: I just was floored because Detective Larry Massey was the

758
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: guy a co investigator on the Red Bandana murder case.

759
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: So if he's sitting there and he's looking for this

760
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: gun and one falls in his lap, he would have

761
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: gotten a tested ballistically and we have all the records,

762
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: there's no indication of it. But magically the cops somehow

763
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 2: find the raven twenty five murder weapon that they need

764
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: on March thirty, like three weeks after Sally turned into

765
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: her gun at the home of a suspect in the case.

766
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 2: And it gets even deeper than that, and to where

767
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 2: you have to wonder was the gun that Sally turned

768
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: in the same one that killed Steve Niece at the

769
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: Red Bandana And if so, how did it get to

770
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: another location, And who's covering this up?

771
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 1: And why is it that there's a police officer involved

772
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: or a prominent citizen involved in the red bandana story

773
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: and then they planted at this suspect's house.

774
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is the implication.

775
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: Oh see, that wasn't that complicated of a story. You

776
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: made a big deal out of nothing.

777
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 2: But you know, this story has been bruin in me

778
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: and cared for, you know, almost a year.

779
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 3: We kind of knew about some of these details, but.

780
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 2: It wasn't it seemed so out of whack and fantastical

781
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 2: until we found out who that gun got turned into,

782
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: which was the investigator of the red bag anna and

783
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: he says he doesn't remember a gun at all. Just

784
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 2: I've interviewed probably thirty law enforcement officers from the time

785
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 2: who had never even heard of a gun being turned down.

786
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: Who would have sally have gotten that gun from, Who

787
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 1: would have been a prominent citizen or whatever, who would

788
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: have needed protection from the police.

789
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 3: There was a.

790
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: Prominent guy in Saint Angelo who was a multi millionaire

791
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 2: that he was a huge philanthropist, gave tons of money

792
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: away to people. The word is he also had a

793
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: lot of cops on the payroll. There's evidence that came

794
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 2: up in a civil trial for him that he was

795
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: seducing young boys from a local boys ranch at an

796
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 2: apartment he had below his office called the Red Room.

797
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 2: It was all redwood Mears and this is all documented

798
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: in kicking Port files.

799
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 3: He also was tied to the Red Bandana, so.

800
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: We don't know enough about what the motivation would be,

801
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: but it's certainly odd what we later found out. The

802
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,360
Speaker 2: guy that was accused of the Red Bandana killing was

803
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 2: a guy named less Marsh and the gun was found

804
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: at his mother in law's house, and his mother in

805
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: law said that she knew Lesson had had this gun

806
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: at one point, so that was like a key piece

807
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 2: of evidence the police were counting on. He eventually was acquitted.

808
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: So we started looking is there any connection between Les

809
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 2: Marsh and Shane and Sally and we dug through. Marshall

810
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: had stacks and stacks of like typed out notes he made,

811
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 2: and there's this entry in the notes that said Teresa

812
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: Preston is Steve Shaeffer's girlfriend. Teresa and her mother had

813
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: gone to live with the Marshes at some point, so

814
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 2: Steve Shaeffer's girlfriend is living with the guy eventually accused

815
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: of the Red Bandana murder. So then we found a

816
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 2: diary entry from Steve Shaeffer, who Sally at one point said,

817
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 2: gave her the gun. But he writes in his diary

818
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: Shane came to me. He was in a panic. They're

819
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: afraid for their life. He wanted a gun. I said

820
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: no and told him to come back tomorrow.

821
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 3: He said, but they.

822
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 2: Told me a story, and he was so freaked out

823
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: and scared about it with Sally that they went and

824
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: spent the night with my girlfriend. So I asked Hannah

825
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 2: to look up in his investigative notes. I'm like, look

826
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: up Les Marsh and he reads through some stuff and

827
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: he's like, huh, this is interesting here that Les Marsh

828
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 2: sold the gun to Shane and Salad.

829
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 5: Hmmm, like who wrote that?

830
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 3: When was it? And he's like there's no name or date.

831
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 2: I'm like, now you know why teachers in second grade

832
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: until you put a date in your name on a

833
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: piece of paper. Right, So that gets even crazier because

834
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 2: then it would be the guy who eventually is charged

835
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: with the red Bandana murder sells the murder weapons Shane

836
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 2: and Sally. Sally turns it into the sheriff's department and

837
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: goes to the police department and ends up back at

838
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 2: the mother in law son with the guy less marsh

839
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: accused the crime.

840
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: It was like about three weeks later you said, yeah,

841
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: so when you were talking about this, this is what

842
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 1: I was thinking. And maybe I'm like way far off here,

843
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 1: but what I was thinking was, well, if that's really

844
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: the connection, why wait for three or four months to

845
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: kill her? If this is a pressing matter the gun?

846
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 1: She does this at March, right, and then they're not

847
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 1: killed until July fourth, Right, They were gone the whole time, right,

848
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: and then they came back right before fourth of Why.

849
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: Well, Sally was around by actually by April. But I

850
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: think the theory on that is that it's possible that

851
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 2: the defense attorney for this guy accused to the Red

852
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: Dana murder might have found out that Sally gave a

853
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 2: gun to the police, and she might have been considered

854
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 2: a potential witness and where this gun had really been,

855
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: and so they offer her.

856
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 3: There was another woman that was involved. I'm not going to.

857
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 2: Get into too many more names with all these people

858
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: in the red bandana who was her throat was slashed

859
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 2: and she was stabbed death in a bar in August

860
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 2: of eighty eight, a month after shaming Sally went missing.

861
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, a lot of weird connections, and it's just

862
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: I think one of the frustrating things.

863
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 3: Is that we seem to be the only people.

864
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: That really care about this gun and what really was

865
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: its origin? How did he get lost? Are they the

866
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: same gun? At one point, we had the red bandana

867
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: case files, so we know what the murder weapon was

868
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 2: for the guy that killed the bar owner. We had

869
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 2: a serial number for it, and so I emailed the

870
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 2: sheriff handa, I'm like, sheeriff, can you compare this serial

871
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 2: number to the serial number of the gun Sally turned

872
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: in to see if they match, then we'll know once

873
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 2: and for all whether this was the same gun.

874
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 3: And he replied by email, we have no serial number.

875
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: So they even lost the serial number on the gun

876
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: that Sally turned in.

877
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 4: Multiple people that have no connection, and three people that

878
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 4: were formerly within the Sheriff's department named a certain police

879
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 4: officer that they suspected. Like, there's other things that keep

880
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 4: pointing to that there's something going on internally there that

881
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 4: people are covering up and they're all afraid to talk

882
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 4: or we're talking to us, And then all went silent,

883
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 4: like they all went silent around the same time, and

884
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 4: we don't really know who they're hearing from.

885
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 3: Or why podcast listeners. I think the kind of other monumental.

886
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 2: Part of this story was the Sally's driver's license and

887
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 2: how it was found. You know, when they found the

888
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: camaro and they found the body, Sally's person was missing.

889
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: She didn't have a driver's license on her. So about

890
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: four or five months after the bodies were found, this

891
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: detective is walking down the San Angelo Police Department hallway

892
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: toward dispatch and you sees something lying on the floor

893
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 2: and he's like, huh, picks it up, turns it over,

894
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: and he immediately recognizes that it's Sally mcnelly's driver's license

895
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: on the floor of the politice department. And they weren't

896
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 2: investigating the case, so they had no evidence on them.

897
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 2: So then it becomes this tangled story that you'll hear

898
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 2: about where did this license come from?

899
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 3: Very bizarre.

900
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: What is the official line? It's an open case. You know,

901
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: they want us all that. You said, there was sort

902
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: of a much more simplified theme that had gone around

903
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: with what these four got is that there's like some

904
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: money stuff, sex stuff, not this huge conspiracy that you

905
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: are talking about. That doesn't sound outlandish to me at all, frankly,

906
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 1: but you said there was sort of a more simple

907
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: explanation from maybe the people in town for what they

908
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 1: think happened.

909
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think about the love triangle, Karen?

910
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 4: But Jimmy Burnett, Well, I think there's truth in that.

911
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 4: You know, we talked to Jimmy's ex girlfriend and then

912
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 4: another friend of Sally's, actually two of them, one of

913
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 4: them like, who's Shane? I thought she was dating Jimmy,

914
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 4: you know, like there's there's a couple of people that

915
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 4: point to that. So I think there's some truth in that.

916
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the police reports they verified that Sally

917
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 2: spent the night with Jimmy at least twice shortly before

918
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 2: the fourth of July, so he is with her. Shane

919
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: comes back and said, no, she's mine, and you can

920
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: imagine something happening with that, And it kind of seems

921
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: like it's a little bit of all these things. And

922
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,479
Speaker 2: I think that's what current investigators think is that, Yeah,

923
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 2: the seat Davis was selling drugs and Sally might.

924
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 3: Have vowed some money.

925
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jimmy was in love with her and Shane came back.

926
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 2: You know, John Gilbert seemed to be putting himself into

927
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: everyone's nose in the case he just knew too much.

928
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: How did he know so much? And of course the

929
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 2: blame it all on guy Steve Schaeffer because supposedly the Satanist,

930
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: but he did have a he was involved in the

931
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 2: circles and had a propensity eventually for violent behavior. So

932
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 2: I think that they think that's the thing, And unfortunately,

933
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 2: I think that they know deep down that they're not

934
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 2: going to get anything new out of these people, one

935
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 2: for sure, and that has kind of left them like, well,

936
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 2: what's next.

937
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: Well, you talked to Steve, did you get to talk

938
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: to I don't know who's alive and who's not at

939
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: this point. The other three you've got Jimmy and John

940
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: and Heath. Did you get to talk to anybody there?

941
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 3: Yeah.

942
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 4: We spoke to Heath first, who was reluctant, and then

943
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 4: he agreed to meet with us. And then once we

944
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 4: sat around a table and spoke without recording, he started saying,

945
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 4: you know, like I didn't have anything to do with this.

946
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 4: I've been set up. So we convinced him that's what

947
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 4: we want to record. Do we want to hear your

948
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,760
Speaker 4: side out there. So he claims that Jimmy Burnett told

949
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 4: him that he did it, that Jimmy had done it,

950
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 4: and he believes Jimmy did it and that he had

951
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 4: nothing to do with it.

952
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: And he said that you know, they've harassed me for

953
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: all years. I've given my DNA five times.

954
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 3: I'm a good guy.

955
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 2: Now it just became an ordained minister Christian. Although he

956
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 2: was arrested a couple of years ago with a gun

957
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 2: in his car and went to prison for a year

958
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 2: because he was a fella, but he says his life's

959
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 2: chance around. He has a new girlfriend. So it's an

960
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 2: interesting interview with him. John Gilbert, we know exactly where

961
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: he lived and so we door knocked him up a

962
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: lot and just never could catch him at home. Did

963
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 2: talk to a former girlfriend of his who heard us

964
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: knocking on the door and she said, what are y'all doing?

965
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 2: We said, we're working on a podcast. She's like for

966
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 2: Shane and Sally and You're like yeah, she said, oh

967
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 2: I know John Gilbert. Well we're like really she said, yeah,

968
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 2: my name's Tammy Littlefield, was the fisherman's daughter.

969
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: Well, actually that brings up a good point. Are the

970
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,239
Speaker 1: fishermen able to in any way connect to these four

971
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: guys to the two guys that were arguing with Shane

972
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 1: before they went missing, or was it too far away

973
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: and they didn't know him.

974
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 2: They didn't know Instead, it was dark and the k

975
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 2: S lights were shining right and they're about to cease

976
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: now the fishermen are, but Tammy the daughter, she was

977
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: very young at the time. She said that, you know,

978
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: she believed her father and thinks he did a good

979
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 2: deed for stepping forward and telling that story. That truck

980
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: that came into the lake was really important because Jimmy

981
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: Burnett drove a dark We've later found out it was

982
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 2: a chebby s ten slightly lifted four x four pickup

983
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 2: truck with KSE lights on the top, pretty much like

984
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 2: the fisherman described.

985
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 3: The problem was.

986
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 2: Steve Schaeffer also drove supposedly pickup truck with KSE lights.

987
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 2: I guess they were popular at saying Angelo at the time,

988
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 2: but I found out later is actually a ram charger,

989
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 2: which has that kind of camper cover over the back.

990
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 2: It's kind of like a Bronco or Blazer, and it

991
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: seems like the fisherman would have noted that in the

992
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: description of the vehicle, and you didn't mention it.

993
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,640
Speaker 5: So is your working theory.

994
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: I guess we've got the conspiracy around the gun and

995
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: the red bandana and the connection there. But if you're

996
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: going with the more kind of conventional these theories here,

997
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: are you thinking Jimmy would be the suspect right underneath

998
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: the gun being turned in and that theory?

999
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 3: I think?

1000
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 2: So when people ask me, I say, the only suspect

1001
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: that I'm ninety nine to one hundred percent sure was

1002
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,919
Speaker 2: involved with Jimmy Burnett, I.

1003
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: Agree, well, And it's so if you think about the scene, right,

1004
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: it could be one person easily because you can control

1005
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 1: two people with a shotgun. And then I was thinking

1006
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: it was execution style, but really a shotgun, I mean,

1007
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: close range with a shotgun is a lot of damage.

1008
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 5: I'm not sure that execution style.

1009
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 1: You don't have to hit anybody more than one time

1010
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: with a shotgun, and somebody who probably knows the area

1011
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: really well, right, because it's very rural where their bodies

1012
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 1: are discovered, so the local kid, right, And it's a place.

1013
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 4: Where the teens hung out and drank because there's only

1014
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 4: one way in they could see cars, so they went

1015
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 4: there regularly.

1016
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: What would it take to solve this case from y'all's

1017
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,280
Speaker 1: point of view, is it somebody coming forward at this point?

1018
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: You think that would be great if someone came forward

1019
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: with totally new information. Yeah, but I think that the

1020
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 2: key thing is people that aren't going to give up

1021
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 2: and quit and for instance, figure out what happened with

1022
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 2: this gun with that driver's license. I figured I just

1023
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 2: found out something after the podcast that's startling as well.

1024
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: So I have a source that this driver's license supposedly

1025
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 2: fell out of a toolbox that was still in the

1026
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 2: police department, and that's how it ended up.

1027
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: On the floor.

1028
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 2: Of course, they traced it back and they couldn't figure

1029
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 2: anything out. But I have a source. She said, no,

1030
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 2: it wasn't a toolbox, all right, but it was at

1031
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: my aunt's house. I watched her pull it out in

1032
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 2: front of the sky that stole it. She says, what's

1033
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 2: this driver's license do here? And my source tells me

1034
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 2: she recognized her immediately as Sally mcdellly, And his downing

1035
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 2: part was she swears that they called the police. The

1036
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 2: police showed up, interviewed the band, and took the license

1037
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 2: and this is in the spring of eighty nine, and

1038
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 2: then it ends up on their floor.

1039
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 3: Very different story, very different story.

1040
00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 5: I think there's some hope.

1041
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,959
Speaker 4: They do have all the clothes that were on Chaine

1042
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 4: and Sally, and there's a few articles that have DNA

1043
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 4: they've found. They haven't pulled or tried to do any

1044
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 4: DNA since twenty sixteen, you know, so there is new technology.

1045
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 4: You know, it's rapidly changing, so that that is something

1046
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 4: that I find hopeful too. There's a lot of stuff

1047
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 4: there that's just been in these little brown bags that

1048
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 4: they're waiting, so that may be another avenue. Unfortunately, you know,

1049
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 4: Jimmy Burnetta is gone as far as we know, he's

1050
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 4: no longer living. We have a death certificate in his

1051
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 4: ex wife saying she saw him die and saw him buried.

1052
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 1: So you're doubtful that that is I mean, is he

1053
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 1: he would just take off and fake his own death

1054
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 1: kind of thing.

1055
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 4: According to Terry Lowe and Nick Hanna, he's faked it twice.

1056
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 4: And when we told Hannah about the death certificate, his

1057
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 4: response was, have you seen the body? So they're very skeptical.

1058
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 4: I think we believe that he is deceased. It fits

1059
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 4: everything fits together.

1060
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: What has been this is the last question. What has

1061
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: been the reaction in San Angelo to the podcast? I mean,

1062
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,760
Speaker 1: have you heard back from many of the local folks.

1063
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 1: Are they happy that you're digging into this or are

1064
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 1: there some people that are skeptical.

1065
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 2: I've gotten a lot of response from people, a lot

1066
00:55:56,760 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 2: of people Facebook messaging we had of the blue and

1067
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: there's been some things that have come in, well you

1068
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 2: should look at this, and there are things that we've

1069
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 2: already looked at.

1070
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 3: And so there wasn't.

1071
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 2: Like a flood of amazing tips, and a lot of

1072
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 2: it was I pray that they find the killer for

1073
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 2: the parents of Shane and Sally. So a huge amount

1074
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 2: of comments like that. I will say that last source

1075
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 2: that came in about the driver's license did come from

1076
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 2: the podcast, and she contacted me and so we'll see

1077
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: where that goes and if anything else new comes into

1078
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 2: that's kind of the reaction I'm seeing that dang I

1079
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 2: didn't know s Angelo was so messed up.

1080
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 4: A lot about the city, and then also people didn't

1081
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 4: know all the ins and outs of the story. They

1082
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 4: didn't know about the driver's license, they didn't know these

1083
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 4: different theories like they I think they've had their eyes

1084
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 4: opened a little bit of such a crazy story.

1085
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I tell teach at the University of Texas, and

1086
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 1: I tell my students all the time. So our job

1087
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 1: to take the details from the lives of different people,

1088
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: oftentimes in the same family, them all together, and then

1089
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: present this narrative where basically everybody in the story looks

1090
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: at it and says, I had no idea about part

1091
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: of this story.

1092
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 5: And that's the.

1093
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: Power of journalism and in particular podcasting, I think, because

1094
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: it's so intimate to be able to tell this kind

1095
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: of a story, you have you know, Marshall, And actually

1096
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 1: I know I said that was my last question, But

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00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 1: my last last question is who does Marshall think did this?

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00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 5: What is his theory?

1099
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: Marshall, He's pretty much with us on Jimmy Burnett. I

1100
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 2: think he still thinks that Steve Schaeffer, because of the

1101
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 2: black guy, had something to do with this, and he does.

1102
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 2: I think he thinks that there was good reason for

1103
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 2: all these suspects, like John Gilbert, who ended up moving

1104
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 2: after he went to prison for a while for something else.

1105
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 2: He moves basically across the street from Marshall Caddy cornertone,

1106
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 2: so he has to see this suspect all the time.

1107
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 1: Well, what an amazing story, And you know, I start,

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00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: I hope that you all are able to get some

1109
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: more tips in something that can really be helpful in

1110
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: moving the story forward, because it's you know, whether it's

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00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: a case that just happened or one that's thirty now,

1112
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: thirty five, thirty six years going here, families want closure

1113
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: for sure. So I think it's a great service you

1114
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: both have done. And then it's a great podcast.

1115
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Yeah, thanks.

1116
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 4: For digging into it with us.

1117
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1118
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1119
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 1: Is Wicked and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget There are

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00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast Tenfold More

1121
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1122
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

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00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

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00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

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00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by

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00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: Nick Toga Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff, and

1127
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More Wicked,

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00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod.