1 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Robert Evans here and Welcome to It Could Happen Here, 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: a podcast about how things are falling apart and how 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: to maybe put them back together. Obviously, the biggest story 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: probably in the world right now is the ongoing invasion 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: of Ukraine. In a major corollarrea of that story is 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 1: how dramatically things in Russia have taken a turn for 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: the totalitarian um. The country has become increasingly isolated from 8 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: most of the global community. This is due to a 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: mix of sanctions, to a lot of businesses pulling out 10 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: just because of the social consequences of not doing so UH, 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: and of policies that have been put down by Putin's 12 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: government in order to crack down on dissent and further 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,319 Speaker 1: remove Russia from any kind of contact with the West. UM. 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: As a result, it's kind of difficult to get in 15 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: touch with people who are resisting Putin's government from within Russia. UM. 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: Anarchist activists in particular UM are not see people to reach. However, 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: we did recently sit down with one of these individuals 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: and talk to them, so this episode will both be 19 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,639 Speaker 1: an interview with that person and a bit of history 20 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: about the anarchist movements within Russia. Russia has actually a 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: very long history of anarchist organizing. Two of them in 22 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: generally considered foundational thinkers and anarchists political theory. Mikhail Bakunin 23 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: and Peter Kropotkin were both born in Russia. Both lived 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: and agitated under the Tsars. Bakunan was an advocate and 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: a major theorist of political terrorism. He fled the country, 26 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: was returned, and ultimately spent like ten years in prison there. 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: Kropotkin was the author of a seminal anarcho communist text 28 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: titled The Conquest of Bread, and he was only able 29 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: to return to Russia after the nineteen seventeen Revolution. He 30 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: died there in nineteen twenty one. It's also worth noting 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: that Peter Kropotkin is canonically the ancestor to Tommy Pickles 32 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: of the rug Rats, but that's something you can look 33 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: up on your own now. While some of the most 34 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: influential anarchist in history were Russian, and anarchist organizing was 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: a potent part of pre nineteen seventeen Russian political history, 36 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: the success of the Bolsheviks after nineteen seventeen led to 37 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: the movements near annihilation um Emma Goldman was yet another 38 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: major anarchist, activist, and thinker who was born and educated 39 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: in Russia. She immigrated to the United States in eighteen 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: eighty five, where she promptly helped try to assassinate a 41 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 1: steel magnate in revenge for his brutality against striking workers. 42 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: Goldman grew to prominence as a labor activist and women's 43 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: rights activist in the last decade of the eighteen hundreds. 44 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: In nineteen o one, her work helped inspire Leon Cho 45 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: Goosh to assassinate President William McKinley. While Emma Goldman had 46 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: no direct connection to Cho Gosh, she defended his actions 47 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: by saying, as an anarchist, I am opposed to violence, 48 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: but if the people want to do away with assassins, 49 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: they must do away with the conditions which produced murderers. 50 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: There's much more to say about Emma Goldman, but for 51 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: our purposes, what matters is that she was arrested for 52 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: opposing the draft in World War One and eventually deported 53 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: back to Russia. Right after the revolution. Goldman was initially 54 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: psyched that the czars had been deposed, but quickly became 55 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: disillusioned by the violence of the forming totalitarian Soviet state. 56 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: She considered this a betrayal of the revolution and wrote 57 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: a series of articles for The New York World that 58 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 1: have gone down as one of the first expose as 59 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: of conditions in the Soviet Union. Goldman's work was criticized 60 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: by many left wing intellectuals outside of Russia, but she 61 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: was correct about political repression in the new Bolshevik workers paradise. 62 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,079 Speaker 1: Matters did not improve for anarchists in the first twenty 63 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: years of the new regime. In nineteen thirty seven, in 64 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: his history of Anarchism in Russia, E. Yorroslansky wrote, in 65 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics, at the present time, 66 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: the anarchists no longer enjoy any influence over the masses. 67 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: They are met with only as isolated individualists. The fall 68 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: of the Soviet Union, the coming of democracy, and the 69 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: slow rise to power of Vladimir Putin did not enormously 70 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: alter this state of affairs. Russian anarchists still exercise relatively 71 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: little influence over the masses. Most of them struggle towards 72 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: autonomy as isolated individuals. In March of twenty two, in 73 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: the third week of the Russian invasion, of Ukraine. I 74 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: sat down with one of these people. We've been chatting 75 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: online through Reddit for a couple of weeks, and the 76 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: process of setting up a proper audio interview was difficult. 77 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,119 Speaker 1: To say the least repression of all political descent under 78 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: Putin is extreme. More than thirteen thousand people were arrested 79 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: at anti war protests in the first two weeks of 80 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: the war, so you will understand why our source was 81 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: paranoid about his identity. I had to download a secure 82 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: app I'd never even heard of before, and he only 83 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: agreed to speak with me while using a voice changing 84 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: application to further disguise his identity. Due to the difficulties 85 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: this created, I will be paraphrasing him and quoting his 86 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: words myself at a couple of points here in order 87 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,919 Speaker 1: to make listening to this a more comfortable experience. But 88 00:04:54,400 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: here he is at ten years or so. It's bicycle 89 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: and co Of course, my initial cell was into weak 90 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:24,239 Speaker 1: ten years ago plush. So just to make it clear, 91 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: he's saying that he's been involved in anarchist organizing for 92 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: more than a decade since around two thousand eleven. The 93 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: initial cell he organized with was affiliated with an umbrella 94 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: organization called Autonomous Action. We'll talk about them more in 95 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: a minute, but it's important you understand that his cell, 96 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: at about fifty people strong, was considered quite large for 97 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: Russia once in Moscow. In perspects, I guess in the 98 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: artists in linings because whatever they were worked for rental 99 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: of course, or concerned. Even in two thousand eleven, organizing 100 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: as an anarchist was rather risky. As a result, our 101 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: source actually started his career in activism on his own. 102 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: As a single protester. He would stand out in public places, 103 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: sometimes during other protests, sometimes on his own, holding a 104 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: sign that said in Russian peace to the world. Now 105 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: I'm reading you the English translation of what he put down. 106 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: The the literal Russian words that he had on his 107 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: sign were a reference to a famous Soviet slogan officially 108 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: adopted in nineteen fifty one. The phrase actually has a 109 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: much older origin in the country, which begins under the 110 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,919 Speaker 1: Orthodox Church and grew more popular among revolutionaries after the 111 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: February Revolution. The first leftist he use peace to the 112 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: world as a slogan in Russia may have actually been 113 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: a f Kerensky, who headed the brief democratic government that 114 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: ran things after the are stepped down. In our sources case, 115 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: his sign was an act of protest against a number 116 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: of things, including the recent Russian invasion of Georgia and 117 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: Russian military operations in Syria. Was kind of past, so 118 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: I can't question for I'm promising for against the stuff. 119 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: Stuff uh as almost nothing effectiveness organization or one hour home. 120 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: We managed to entire winter on a couple of at 121 00:07:52,120 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: least currently home. After he'd been seen doing this for 122 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: a while, members of a local anarchists self found this 123 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: person and started asking them questions, Hey, who are you, 124 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: what are you doing? What do you think of this? 125 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: And that he was not specific about the individual political 126 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: questions they answered, and we probably don't need to get 127 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: into that. They invited him eventually to a building where 128 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: a number of them tended to gather and prepare for actions. 129 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: In short order, they started organizing together. At the time 130 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: our source started organizing as an anarchist. The most notorious 131 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: recent action was the Kimki Forest conflict. In brief, Kimki 132 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: is a forest with a long histories and nature preserve. 133 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: It's kind of outside of Moscow. It's so densely forested 134 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: that in the sixteen hundreds, and then in the early 135 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, when the Russians were resisting Napoleon, it was 136 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: used by partisans and insurgents as a base of operations. 137 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: When the Bolsheviks took over, it was preserved to act 138 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: as a sort of open air therapy center for tuberculosis patients. 139 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: In the early two thousands, local city planners started to 140 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: advocate for a toll road to be built through the 141 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: middle of the forest. Their argument was that a large 142 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: amount of traffic passed through the Leningrad Highway and that 143 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: had caused huge amounts of air pollution in the city 144 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: of Kimki. Since the forest was protected by national environmental codes, 145 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: turning it into a road was a long political process. 146 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: Activists protested, arguing that it would be an environmental disaster 147 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: which spoilers. It was like anarchists in the United States 148 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: in the period before the Green Scare, Russian anarchists carried 149 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: out a series of occupation actions to try and protect 150 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: the wild lands. So the stand it was poor or 151 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: or the governance the cost orgastlands past or section oh 152 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: fascists one constraint trains. In the end, it was in 153 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve Shortly after our source began participating an 154 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 1: anarchist demonstrations, the government carried out a major crackdown against 155 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: certain anarchist activists. They focused primarily on groups and individuals 156 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: who were doing things like making Molotov cocktails and engaging 157 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: in property destruction. Now our source participated in food not bombs, 158 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: and other non aggressive types of direct action, most of 159 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 1: which involved handing out food and supplies to people who 160 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: are helping them to get resources. He did not disavow 161 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: insurrectionary anarchists the kind of people who threw bombs, but 162 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: that wasn't the kind of thing he did, and he 163 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of connections with those people because 164 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: roughly a year after he started organizing as an anarchist, 165 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: most of them in his area at least got cracked 166 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: out on and either killed, forced out of the country, 167 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: or arrested by the government. This crackdown on insurrectionary Russian 168 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: anarchists led to an even more paranoid security culture among 169 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: those who remained. Our source and his comrades mostly distributed food, 170 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: but they also provided support for a large number of 171 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: children whose families had abandoned them due to crushing poverty. 172 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: Even though these things were not illegal, they had to 173 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: maintain intense security culture to avoid being part of future crackdowns. 174 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: One of the first don't talk to anyone or a 175 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: structional companization commun don't care for the information, don't give 176 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: them infrestion means no one. Long standing tradition among Russian 177 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: anarchists was a sort of defensive isolation. People gave each 178 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 1: other as little information as possible about their real identities. 179 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: As a result, despite the fact that he has participated 180 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: in multiple protests since the invasion of Ukraine and people 181 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: have been arrested at those protests, our source insists that 182 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: he doesn't know if any of his comrades have been 183 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: taken into custody. Now. Some of this probably has to 184 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: do with the fact that he's not organizing in a 185 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: major city, um, but a lot of it probably has 186 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that he just doesn't particularly 187 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: know any people by name. Poles, which are imperfect but 188 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: cannot be entirely discounted, suggest that most Russian civilians support 189 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: the war and their military. Even so, the scope and 190 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: scale of the anti war protests in Russia have beggared 191 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: anything from recent memory. Our source says that this has 192 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: actually helped to mitigate some of the despair you might 193 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,439 Speaker 1: expect Russian anarchists to feel, given the Titanic increase in 194 00:12:41,480 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: state repression from from there, just like, oh, come on, 195 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: we can do it all everything and we'll just again 196 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: if it's will find us whatever. No, or there is 197 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: no despair at least we don't see it. The wants 198 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: of action, their words of preparation. From what I understand, 199 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: or not only artists, but other rdical firms were gathering 200 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: in Russia or in Moscow, in Saint Pasbura obviously because 201 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: the most et center of everything be there, not not Carenians. 202 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: I guess, oh you some some even throwing like water 203 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: us really industries. So it's probably time that we talk 204 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: about autonomous action or a D. The Revolutionary Anarchist Federation 205 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: that our friend and his comrades are affiliated with a 206 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: D actually has members in Russia, Belarus and Ukraine. It 207 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: was founded in two thousand two and briefly had affiliates 208 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: in Armenia before they disbanded in two thousand five. That's 209 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: a story in and of itself. A D advocates direct 210 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: action in order to quote create a tradition and basis 211 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: for a new humanist culture, social self organization, and radical 212 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: resistance against militarism, capitalism, sexism, and fascism. They consider the 213 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: existing government of Russia as entirely illegitimate. They refused to 214 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: take part in Russian electoral politics, seeing even left wing 215 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: opposition parties as essentially controlled by Putin and only existing 216 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: to provide a sham vision of choice. A D activists 217 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: call themselves the Autonomy and see their calling as twofold 218 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: to exist as autonomous, free individuals within an unfree system 219 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: and to spread revolutionary sentiment and weaken the state. Much 220 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: has been said in the West of Alexei Navalny, a 221 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: Russian opposition politician who, whatever else you might say about him, 222 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: is certainly not controlled opposition. He has survived an assassination 223 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: attempt by the Putin regime and is currently incarcerated after 224 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: leaving his exile in the West to return to Russia 225 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: and fight the sham case against him in court. No 226 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: one can doubt that Navalny possesses significant physical courage, and 227 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: it seems fair to say the man believes in what 228 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: he says. A D Activists, from what I have seen, 229 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: do not fault him in his willingness to suffer for 230 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: his beliefs, but they believe that he is at the 231 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: very least deeply misguided. Navalny, they say, holds to a 232 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: fundamentally errant belief that Russia could ever be a parliamentary 233 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: democracy in the Western tradition. Their argument is that corruption, 234 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: investigations and electoralism are useless in Russia and always have been, 235 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: and from a historical standpoint it is difficult to argue 236 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: with these claims. Autonomous Action members do not support the 237 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: Ukrainian state, and I have read articles from them where 238 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: they describe the conflict in the Dawn Bass, which simmered 239 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: for eight years before sploating into the current conflagration, as 240 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: two fascist paramilitary forces backed by two capitalist governments. However, 241 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: they have been consistent for years that the proper stance 242 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: of Russian anarchists is to support the Ukrainian people against 243 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: aggression from the Russian state, before Putin commenced his broader invasion. 244 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: In February of this year, Autonomous Action published an article 245 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: with the title why we should support Ukraine quote Putin 246 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: is not just the gendarme of Europe, but the gendarme 247 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: of the whole world. From Syria to Myanmar. Whenever a 248 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: dictator tortures and kills thousands of his old people, Putin 249 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: is there to support him. There are no elections in 250 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: Russia anymore. Even the most moderate attempts to change something 251 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: results in criminal cases and persecutions. I do not believe 252 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: that the result of this yet another round of threatening 253 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: declarations and building up pressure is a full scale war. 254 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: But as the conflict is not disappearing, a full scale 255 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: war may start after five to ten years, even as 256 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: a result of a cycle of escalation, even if no 257 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: one really wants it. And in case of a full 258 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: scale war, we should be on the Ukrainian side. As 259 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: Mala Testa said, for me, there is no doubt that 260 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: the worst of democracies is always preferable, if only from 261 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: the educational point of view, then the best of dictatorships 262 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: neutrality and a war between Ukraine and Russia would mean 263 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: neutrality in an invasion of a democracy by a dictatorship. 264 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: Now our source concurs with the extant evidence that Russian 265 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: citizens still broadly support the war. As I stated earlier, 266 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: nanton attacking Russia with no people don't know, he was 267 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: certain to acknowledge that there's still a great deal of propaganda, 268 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: largely pro NATO propaganda on the anti war side of things. 269 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: Given the information situation within his country, he admitted that 270 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: he'd had difficulty parsing some things out, while acknowledging that 271 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: his side also lacked perfect information, he felt that their 272 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: stance against the war was safe because in the end 273 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: it opposed blood letting. You can claim on some kind 274 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: of or the Western growing. Oh if even if you're 275 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: under some kind of work, even West Western is basically 276 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: a case as well, you still of this world on 277 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: your side because you don't want to. He did admit 278 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: that a number of people in his life, family and 279 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: close friends knew about his political sympathies, and he claims 280 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: that the outbreak of war and the massive futalitarian swing 281 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: Putin has taken over the last month have caused some 282 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: of these people to be more open to his beliefs. 283 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: So I'm kind of opening for them. One people, one 284 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: of them people watch points or oh, my friends, do 285 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: you know what I want to kind of stuff what 286 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: I'm into, or as the war stone, or they just 287 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: came to me. However, personally, hey, you've been concurring for this, 288 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: so wint for years you've been telling us on us 289 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: or for years I thought you'd be annoyed and not understand. 290 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: You're right, What do we do? Oh, we don't have 291 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: people knowing about me? What what gives no? Seeing the 292 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: picture At the moment, the political situation within Russia is 293 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: truviously answered. All the inner of dubious sources have claimed 294 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 1: today palace coup is in the offing or has been attempted. 295 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: Some have even spoken of the possibility of a revolution, 296 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: or at least a massive protest campaign that forces Putin 297 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: from office. Our source did not consider that likely in 298 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: the unlikely event the government collapsed entirely, he was not 299 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: particularly optimistic about what might result. You mentioned the centralised 300 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: governments for you and there is no They're just that, 301 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: just the originals like Oh, it's He mentioned me that 302 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: a number of his loved ones had come forward recently 303 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: to ask what they ought to do. I asked how 304 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: he responded to that question. Right now, we try to 305 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: organize and help each other because there is a there 306 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: is a chance or currency local stuffing, and we'll just 307 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: need to survive. That's the first thing weak. So soft 308 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: organization and interactions are available than any currency or no. 309 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,880 Speaker 1: For what I see it the way, Uh. Second thing 310 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: is that we need to use the training or start. 311 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: I guess there's there's a term in English cause every 312 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: week don't or when you have all infrastructure. Basically for 313 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: now we need to have from enough folding of water 314 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: points we all can train even with the forums. He 315 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: particularly mentioned to the revolutionary importance of finding some way 316 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: to either smuggle or produce medical supplies and medications. He 317 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: knows one person who already had to flee the country 318 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: because his wife could no longer get the medicine she needed. 319 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: He mentioned the sanctions levied against Russia as a major 320 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: issue for regular working people, but when I asked what 321 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: he felt Western countries could do in this conflict, he 322 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: was actually quite focused on something else Entirely. He believes 323 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: the United States has access to high quality satellite images 324 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: of what happened in the immediate lead up to the 325 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: Russian invasion of Ukraine. Putin's government justified much of their 326 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: invasion on so called attacks from the Ukrainian government that 327 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: they claim it escalated against the separatist regions. Our source 328 00:22:39,080 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: believes his government is lying about this, or many states 329 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: so here's the same thing, or yeah, we need to cope. 330 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: Of course it's been queen so it's I don't believe 331 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: that Ukraine or so being with let's say, less of 332 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: military or compared to Russia or not so she stuff, 333 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: So we didn't need those things coped published at least 334 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: maybe not as long as possible. Constan still point all 335 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: would at least it's helpful people see you get there 336 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: are points queer from its good. Since the invasion, it 337 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,679 Speaker 1: has gotten notably harder, but not impossibly hard for Russian 338 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: said to get information about the conflict that does not 339 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: come from the Kremlin. Are starts explained. How he does 340 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: it a combination of using VPNs and understanding the nature 341 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: of authoritarian propaganda. In short, even when the government is 342 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: lying to you, you can get an idea of what 343 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: the truth is by understanding what they want you to believe. 344 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: When work stuff all sources, what science, I saw it 345 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: South Korean side, Russia side, great side, Oh so stopped 346 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: as well. I don't really believe in me. Sal let's 347 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: see firsts because they are past they say, what's going to? 348 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: What's they're trying to contain to? O? Or if you 349 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: have say Okay, let's this one. Uh. When Russian Ministry 350 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: of Foreign first selling or down the solution, and at 351 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: the same time we hear all the Syrians, Syrian or 352 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: mercenaries are going to rail for me, it means one 353 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: thing they want to us pull or the pointing to 354 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: get some time so professional sources councils. He felt that 355 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: one way US activists could be helpful to Russian activists 356 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: was by continuing to document and study the different munitions 357 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: and tactics used by police in cracking down on demonstrations. 358 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: He noticed that Russian police used similar and sometimes even 359 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: the same weapons to the ones that the US police 360 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: used on crowds in the protests. He believes the documentation 361 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: done to study these weapons is helpful to people all 362 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: around the world. He expressed some frustration at friends and 363 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: colleagues of his, who, after years of failing to truly 364 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: grapple with the degree to which Putin had centralized power, 365 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: We're now fleeing Russia to avoid living under an increasingly 366 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:24,919 Speaker 1: totalitarian state. A swampy colleagues. I guess our radio whatever 367 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: he was trying to support me like stuff scoring all 368 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 1: the sports cop Russians. Yes, if you into bonus, that's 369 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: for him trying to blame him hence it and that's 370 00:26:52,040 --> 00:27:00,160 Speaker 1: why against against the commers, he has decided to stay 371 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: and to resist. While he has admitted to now studying 372 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: martial arts and military tactics, he did not have high 373 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: hopes for any kind of confrontation with the Russian state, 374 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 1: and as a generally peaceable person, he has decided that 375 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: he will continue to resist in the way that makes 376 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: the most sense to him, by helping people and providing 377 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: them with things that they will increasingly need. Is the 378 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: economic situation in Russia degrades further for me? How many 379 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: people most kind of since constant sense for yeah, that's 380 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: for at least six years or one. Uh, but then 381 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: that once a thing about arcists and wishould I call 382 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 1: myself and you okay, before I call myself an alarchists, 383 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: then I should make once a more thing. Oh I 384 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: need to before I don't know if him people, uh 385 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: gotta Checkay it could happen here as a production of 386 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 387 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 388 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 389 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts you can find sources 390 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: for It could happen here. Updated monthly at cool Zone 391 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.