1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:02,639 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: The Delphi double murder suspect bows his head and praise 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: before photos of Little Abbey thirteen and Liberty fourteen are 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: displayed before the girrars the girls nude, Simmy Clyde and murdered. 5 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 6 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 3: being with us. 7 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 4: When did you get into town? I mean it's picturesque, 8 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 4: it's beautiful. Everybody's super friendly. 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 3: You're talking about Delphi, Indiana. 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 5: It was supposed to be a walk in the wood 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 5: shared by two friends, Abby Williams and Lebby Jerman. Went 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 5: to this hiking trail on your Delphi's monin high Bridge. 13 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 4: But there's no way you sign that bridge if you're 14 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 4: not from there. 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 5: When the girls didn't return to the spot where they 16 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 5: were supposed to be picked up, their families knew something 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 5: was wrong. 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 6: They thought maybe the girls were hurt. 19 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 3: That bridge is treacherous, and they never thought they would 20 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: hear that the girls were murdered. 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 5: Carol County Shriff's Deputy Darien gen Coola, the first deputy 22 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 5: to arrive at the scene, said he was called to 23 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 5: the area of Deer Creek because they had been told 24 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 5: members of a search party found something, possibly bodies. Gen 25 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 5: Coola says there were multiple people in the area when 26 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 5: he saw a multi colored shirt and a shoe in 27 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 5: the water. He said when he first saw the bodies 28 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 5: of Abbey and Libby, one was new, the other was clothed. 29 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 5: Gencola said he did not perform life saving measures on 30 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 5: the girls because it was apparent they were deceased. 31 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: Joining us an investigative reporter who has been there in 32 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: the courtroom, Barbara McDonald joining us from Delphi. A documentary 33 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 2: producer and co host of Down the Hill podcast. Barbara, 34 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 2: thank you so much for being with us. Barbara, so 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 2: many bombshells in that courtroom. I want to start with 36 00:01:55,400 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: the fact that now we know why the girls clothes 37 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 2: clothing was soaked, and yesterday, Barbara, I couldn't figure out 38 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: why did one person say a T shirt in a tree? 39 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 2: Now I know, please explain. 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,679 Speaker 7: Yeah. So, we heard from several of the crime scene 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 7: investigators who arrived and described finding the clothing of the 42 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 7: girls in the creek. There were about three different areas 43 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 7: where the clothing was in the creek, and two of 44 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 7: those areas the clothing was sort of stuck on debris 45 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 7: in the creek. 46 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 3: The hoodie, the gray hoodie. 47 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 7: That Abby had been wearing that had belonged to Kelsey Jerman. 48 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 7: We saw Abby wearing that in that snapchat image that 49 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 7: Libby posted of the girls before their abduction that was 50 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 7: submerged in the creek. All of the clothing that was 51 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 7: collected from the creek was inside out, including Abby's jeans, 52 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 7: Libby's tied eye T shirt, that gray hoodie, two socks, 53 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:05,119 Speaker 7: one black pink, and then we heard that the girls 54 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 7: were found. Libby was completely nude and Abby was wearing 55 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 7: Libby's jeans and hoodie along with a gray sports Spra 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 7: that we believe belonged to Abby. And Abby also had 57 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 7: her shoes on when she was found those converse sneakers 58 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 7: we saw in that same snapchat image Nancy. 59 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 2: And joining us from the courthouse there in Delphi. Joining 60 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: us from Delphi is Barbara MacDonald. I want to talk 61 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: about the significance Barbara, as to why the girls' clothes 62 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: were soaked. Why when their bodies were found well after 63 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: the murders, their clothing was still soaked. Were they forced 64 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: to wade across the creek? 65 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 8: That is the. 66 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 7: Theory from the state that Richard allen forced these girls 67 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 7: off the bridge down the hill to a secluded area 68 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 7: on the south side of the creek, but then was 69 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 7: interrupted during that attack, that he intended to have his 70 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 7: way with these girls down at the bottom of the hill, 71 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 7: but was interrupted and then forced them to cross the 72 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 7: creek over onto Ron Logan's property where they were killed. 73 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 7: At the scene where they were found, the images that 74 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 7: we found also showed large amounts of blood at that scene. 75 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 7: But the crime scene investigators described the clothing that Abby 76 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 7: was wearing, all of it, the hoodie, the jeans, as 77 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 7: well as her shoes, all being damp or wet to 78 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 7: the touch, and they said it could not have come 79 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 7: from condensation, It could not have come from being out 80 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 7: in the elements overnight. That it definitely was from the creek. 81 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 7: They also had a lot of that silt and that 82 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 7: sort of dirt that's in the creek and debris on 83 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 7: their clothing as well as for Abby, even though she 84 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 7: was found wearing her shoes, they did show some images 85 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 7: of her feet at her shoes had been removed, her 86 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 7: feet were dirty, had some of that filthy sort of 87 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 7: sandy dirt on her feet as well as some leaf debris, 88 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 7: So it certainly appears that at some point Abbey's shoes 89 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 7: were off and then put back on her. 90 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: I know this may seem obsessive, Barbera, but if you 91 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,679 Speaker 2: don't mind, I'd like to hear what you said again 92 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: regarding the discovery of the clothes, their condition, who was wearing, 93 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 2: what where the clothes were, and then I'm going to 94 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: go forward to the actual scene, the blood soaked earth, 95 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 2: and my theory that the scene was staged. 96 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 3: Let's start with the clothes again. 97 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: If you don't mind, Barbara, please go ahead. 98 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 9: No, not at all. 99 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,559 Speaker 7: So the clothing items that were found in the creek, 100 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 7: there were three different areas where the clothing was found, 101 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 7: all within the same general area, but perhaps about ten 102 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 7: feet apart each of those three areas. Two of the 103 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 7: areas that clothing was actually stuck on debris and was 104 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 7: visible from the surface of the water. The gray hoodie 105 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 7: that you see Abby wearing right there in that image 106 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 7: was found submerged in the creek. All of the clothing 107 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 7: that was in the creek was inside out, and all 108 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 7: of those items were wet. All of those items had 109 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 7: that silty sandy debris from the creek is how the 110 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,799 Speaker 7: crime scene investigator described it, as well as some leaf material. 111 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 7: And then, as I mentioned, Libby or Abby's feet rather 112 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 7: under her shoes was dirty. There was signs that she 113 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 7: had taken the shoes off at some point, or that 114 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 7: someone had, and she had walked perhaps a little ways 115 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 7: without any shoes on her feet, and then the shoes 116 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 7: were put back on. I could only see one of 117 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 7: her shoes in the images shown in court yesterday. That 118 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 7: shoe was not tied and the tongue appeared to be 119 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 7: pulled out, as if you were taking it off or 120 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 7: putting it back on your foot. 121 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: To Cheryl McCollum, the director of the Cold Case Research 122 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: Institute and star of the Zone seven podcast, Cheryl, the picture, 123 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: the picture in my mind. 124 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: Of these clothes. 125 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: Covered in dirt, the one shoe, the Nike shoe, with 126 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 2: the clothes in the creek. You know, Cheryl, I remember 127 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: my first car jack murder case. I remember it like 128 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: I tried it yesterday. But the image that almost not 129 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 2: quite choked me up in front of the jury was 130 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: a neighbor ran out. The victim was a teen boy 131 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: and he was shot in his front his mom's front 132 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: yard where he lived and the perp took off in 133 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: the car, and the neighbor, hearing a commotion, ran out 134 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: with a pillow off of his own bed and. 135 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 3: Went and put it under the victim's head. The victim 136 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 3: was already dead. He was shot in my head. 137 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: But when I saw the crime seen photo for the 138 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: first time, I hadn't investigated it yet. 139 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 3: I'm like, why is the victim of a pillow under 140 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 3: his head in the driveway. And then I went and 141 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 3: interviewed the. 142 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: Neighbor and I found out that poignant moment where the 143 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: victim is. 144 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: Dead and he's putting his head on a pillow in 145 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: the driveway. 146 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: That photo. And I know he's seen a lot of 147 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: horrific photos in the courtroom over the last two days 148 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 2: of the victims. But the image Cheryl McCollum of these 149 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:37,599 Speaker 2: little girls clothes having been forced to strip, wet and 150 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,599 Speaker 2: filthy in the creek. 151 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 3: Is so upsetting and poignant to me. 152 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: I can't really identify how wrong this is, Cheryl Nancy. 153 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 4: What it says to me is time was taken, more 154 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 4: time than maybe they originally salt. In a thing like this, 155 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 4: It's hard to take wet clothes off, much less put 156 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 4: them back on. If anybody's ever fallen into water and 157 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,959 Speaker 4: tried to take what gen golf, it's tough, but to 158 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,079 Speaker 4: turn back around and try to put them back on, 159 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 4: you would have to struggle. Even if those genes were 160 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 4: a little too big for you. The fact that they 161 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 4: were unbuttoned and unzipped tells me Abby didn't hide that way. 162 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 4: You know, I think that was done again at the 163 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 4: murder scene. So if you take it step by step 164 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 4: the way Barbara has laid this out so beautifully, you 165 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 4: can see again, like we talked about yesterday, these breadcrumbs 166 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 4: of evidence, where you know where it started, you know 167 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 4: where it ended, and you know the time that it took. 168 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, 169 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 2: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on amazon As, started 170 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: a hitting new series, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan 171 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: Joe Scott. 172 00:09:58,280 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 3: We keep referring to the fact that. 173 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: Libby was nude and Abby had on Libby's clothing. Well, 174 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: at some point Abby was nude too. Abby was forced 175 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: to strip as well. So I'm going to get to 176 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 2: the fact that we don't have any DNA from the perp, 177 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: the alleged purp yet. But Joe Scott, I would like 178 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: you to help me analyze what Barbara has told us, 179 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 2: because I am telling you in every sentence that she conveyed, 180 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 2: which has just come out in the courtroom, there is 181 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: probitive value. 182 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 3: Each thing proves something to me. The fact that the. 183 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 2: Clothing was apart but in three separate areas, the fact 184 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: that some of it was down the stream. Obviously he 185 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: was trying to get rid of the clothing by throwing it. 186 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: Or did the girl strip there and then forced to 187 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: a secluded area. We know that they were barefoot. Why 188 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: were they barefoot? We know that their clothing was still 189 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: soaked by the time their bodies were found. 190 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: Tell me what this tells you, Joe Scott. 191 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,559 Speaker 10: I think that the idea of the clothing being separated 192 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 10: out over an area, this goes to a pattern with 193 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 10: this fellow. Let me expand on that. I think that 194 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 10: for each item that's there, there's a potential he was 195 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 10: throwing these items in front of these children, one by 196 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 10: one into the creek. Imagine how menacing that is when 197 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 10: you begin to think about your watching these young girls 198 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 10: being humiliated relative to exposure of their bodies to this 199 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 10: creepy guy that's out there in the woods, not to 200 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 10: mention one another out in the open, and all the 201 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 10: while it's a matter of control. He has a pattern 202 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 10: of menacing Nancy. And if we could bring the camera 203 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 10: back up, let me show you something else here, the 204 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 10: idea that they had a live forty caliber round at 205 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 10: the scene that had been cycled through a weapon. Again, 206 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 10: that goes to menacing. You're going to push these girls 207 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 10: to do whatever you want them to do, and then afterwards, afterwards, 208 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 10: you're going to redress bodies. So you've got all these 209 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 10: bits of evidence that are spread about. I don't think 210 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 10: that these are random in any way. I think they 211 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 10: were used to leverage these girls doing whatever he wanted 212 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 10: to do. People talk about how it was an unusually 213 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 10: warm day. Let me tell you what what and warm 214 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 10: at water? That water will get your attention. That time 215 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 10: of year up there, it's freezing. So you talk about 216 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 10: debasing and humiliating, that's only a part of it. 217 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall with US, renowned psycho analyst joining us 218 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 2: out of la author of deal Breaker. You can see 219 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: her on Peacock or find her at Doctor Bethany Marshall 220 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: dot com Doctor Bethany, two thoughts. 221 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 3: You know, a gun makes a big man little and 222 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 3: a little man. 223 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: Big, and that's just what he was doing. As Joe 224 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 2: Scott said, he was anacing. But think about it, doctor Bethany. 225 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:01,959 Speaker 2: Humiliating these two prepubescent girls one thirteen, one's fourteen, I 226 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: mean they look. 227 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 3: Like little girls. 228 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: Humiliating them by making them strip a in front of 229 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 2: a guy, a grown man they hardly know the pharmacy 230 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: tic for Pete's sake, and out in public in the. 231 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 6: Woods, Nancy, I can imagine these port little girls screaming 232 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 6: and crying and just so distraught, Nancy. Where this all 233 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 6: begins for me? And I love Joe Scott. Morgan's use 234 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,839 Speaker 6: of the word menacing is when he says down the 235 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,839 Speaker 6: Hill that if you listen to his tone of voice, 236 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 6: it's dripping with contempt hatred. You are two bad little girls. 237 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 7: You belong to me. 238 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 6: If anybody watching this program has ever been an abuse 239 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 6: of relationship, they will recognize that tone of voice. He 240 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 6: makes them wade through the river. I do agree with 241 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 6: the panel he is trying to have control over them 242 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 6: in every way possible, but also to degrade to human 243 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 6: miliate and to force them into sexual submission is really 244 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 6: behind a lot of these crimes. And in terms of 245 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 6: throwing the clothing in the creek, he was wanting. 246 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 9: To scare them. 247 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 6: It's like, don't run away, your clothing is not here anymore. 248 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 6: And the fact that Nancy he put the clothing back on, 249 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 6: it was like he was preserving the bodies to come 250 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 6: back later so he could rape them again. 251 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 9: Richard Allen's defense team claims the audio and video clips 252 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 9: found on Libby German's phone that they receive from the 253 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 9: state have been enhanced and the sounds have been put 254 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 9: on a loop repeating a phrase spoken by either Libby 255 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 9: or Abby, as well as an audio clip of a 256 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 9: man speaking. The defense claims those enhancements are investigatory tools 257 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 9: and that interpreting the words and sounds on the enhanced 258 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 9: video requires a completely subjective analysis. 259 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: I bet they are trying to get that audio suppressed. 260 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 3: Now we know why. 261 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 2: Joining me from Delphi, Barbara McDonald, who hasn't missed a 262 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 2: word of testimony, Barbara McDonald. Isn't it true that when 263 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: the audio is enhanced, because remember Libby is walking along 264 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: on gravel. 265 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: Then you can't. The wind is blowing. 266 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: She's out there in the woods coming down off that 267 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: trestle bridge, which is really high up. If you take 268 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: a good look at it, it's up there with treetops. 269 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: It's very high up. 270 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 3: We visited it. 271 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: It's way up there. So she's walking along the gravel 272 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: off this trestle bridge. If you enhance that audio, multiple 273 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: ear witnesses state that you hear one of the girls 274 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: saying words to the effect of does he have a 275 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: gun or gun? 276 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: He's still there? Or is he still there? 277 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: That's why they don't. 278 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: Want it enhanced. 279 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 7: I listened to that video several times, Nancy and I 280 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 7: really struggled to make out what exactly being said. In 281 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 7: addition to the gravel and the wind that you mentioned, 282 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 7: Abby or rather Libby, when she's making that video, is 283 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 7: moving her phone up and down almost like this, and 284 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 7: so you don't have one steady shot of the man. 285 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 7: You definitely see at the beginning of the video that 286 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 7: he is further behind Abby. Abby is looking down at 287 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 7: the railroad ties. We all know it's a very treacherous 288 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 7: bridge to cross, and you need to pay attention to 289 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 7: where you're putting your feet, and she appears to be 290 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 7: doing that to me, it sounded like she was asking 291 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 7: Libby if he's still there, if he's still behind her, 292 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 7: And towards the end of the video, he absolutely makes 293 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 7: up much of that ground and is much closer to 294 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 7: her at the end of the video than he is 295 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 7: at the beginning of that forty two second video. The 296 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 7: video ends right after he tells them down the hill. 297 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 7: We did hear testimony and saw pictures of a slide 298 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 7: area where the leaves were disturbed at the south end 299 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 7: of that bridge. Going down that hill, it is very steep. 300 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 7: I have walked that area myself. I went down on 301 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 7: my butt, So you could imagine that perhaps the girls 302 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 7: did the same thing. 303 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 2: Would that disturbance of the leaves, Barbara MacDonald be consistent 304 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 2: with the girls going down on that side and then 305 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: being forced to weigh across the creek and their bodies 306 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 2: being found on the other side. 307 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 7: Yeah, So there were two hills they would have gone down. 308 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 7: The first part of the hill was described as perhaps 309 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 7: fifteen or twenty feet down, and then there's a gravel 310 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 7: driveway that's a private driveway belonging to one of the 311 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 7: homeowners on that south side of the creek, and then 312 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 7: there's another hill also about fifteen or twenty feet that 313 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 7: they would have gone down to be in what was 314 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 7: described as sort of a floodplain area closer to the creek, 315 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 7: and the state's theory is that that's where Richard Allen 316 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 7: was intending to have his way with these girls. Those 317 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 7: are the prosecutor words from his opening statement, and that 318 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 7: he was interrupted there perhaps by that homeowner who would 319 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,160 Speaker 7: have been driving along that private drive about three point 320 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 7: thirty that afternoon, and then therefore crossed the creek with 321 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 7: the girls onto Ron Logan's property where they were killed. 322 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 2: Orba McDonald, tell me again your impressions of what you 323 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 2: could hear. 324 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 3: Did you hear the enhanced version or not. 325 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 7: I don't believe I heard the enhanced version. I heard 326 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 7: the original version. You could make out the down the 327 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 7: hill spoken by the man. There is only one man 328 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 7: in the video that I saw that forty two second video. 329 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 7: But I really struggled to hear what I believe Abby 330 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 7: says to Libby about is he still there. I really 331 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 7: listened for the word gun. I even closed my eyes 332 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 7: and listened to the video a couple of times, trying 333 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 7: to really make out what was spoken, and it is 334 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 7: just not very clear. Certainly wasn't clear to me. I 335 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 7: think it is open to interpretation, which is why I 336 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 7: think the defense wants the jury to be able to 337 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 7: hear those words and make up their own mind about. 338 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 2: What is said. 339 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 340 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: My question is, Barbara, according to others that have heard 341 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: the audio, they can make out the word gun and 342 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 2: words to the effect of he has a gun? 343 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 3: Does he have a gun? 344 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: It's really hard to make it out other than hearing 345 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 2: what you believe you heard to be is he still 346 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: there or he is still there? 347 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: Could you hear the. 348 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 3: Girl speaking at all? Other than that one comment? 349 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 7: You hear Libby saying something to the man. It sounds 350 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 7: like at some point before the video begin he gave 351 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 7: them some sort of instructions and she is standing there 352 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 7: at the end of the bridge saying there's no place 353 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 7: to go, there's no path, and that's when he says, 354 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 7: down the hill, and that's right as you can hear 355 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 7: the rustling of them perhaps beginning that descent down the hill, 356 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 7: and that's when the video cuts out and you don't 357 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 7: see or hear anything else. 358 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: Okay, So you, Barbara, were able to make out. We 359 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 2: usually hear with the naked eye, but with the naked 360 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 2: ear un enhanced, you hear is it Libby or I'd 361 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 2: be saying there's no path, there's no place to go. 362 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,239 Speaker 3: Who do you think it's Libby saying that? And then 363 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 3: after that you hear the guy on the bridge say 364 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 3: down the hill? 365 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: And then Barbara, Yes, the state is bringing in evidence 366 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: that there were disturbed beliefs down the hill. 367 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 7: Yes, And I had heard that previously from a member 368 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 7: of Libby's family who searched that south end of the 369 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 7: bridge that he described seeing an area that he said 370 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 7: looked to him like somebody slid on their butt down 371 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 7: the hill. And that's sort of how the crime scene 372 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 7: investigators described it. It would have been very difficult to 373 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 7: walk down that hill, especially if you were scared or 374 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 7: being forced or in a rush. When I went down 375 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 7: that hill, it was very steep, very slippery because of 376 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 7: all the leaves that are in the area, and I 377 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 7: scooted it on my bottom down most of that hill. 378 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 7: Once you get closer to the bottom, it does even 379 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 7: out a bit before you get to that gravel driveway. 380 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 7: But then there's another hill also about fifteen or twenty 381 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 7: feet down on the other side of that gravel driveway 382 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 7: to get down to the area near the creek. 383 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 9: Richard Allen's defense team foulews emotion, asking the judge to 384 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 9: prevent the jury from seeing or hearing the recordings that 385 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 9: were turned over to the defense. The defense team claimed 386 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 9: the audio and video the state turned over to them 387 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 9: has been manipulated by enhancing the audio and looping the recording. 388 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 3: We are at the courthouse bringing you the latest as 389 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 3: the Delphi murderers trial goes on. And with me from 390 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 3: Delphi is Barbara McDonald. To the rest of the panel. 391 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:19,719 Speaker 3: I'll bring you right in, but I want to get 392 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 3: all the facts from her. 393 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 2: Barbara, the defense is trying so hard to keep this 394 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 2: video and audio away from the jury, and now we 395 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: know why. The more I question you, the more I learn. 396 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: Now you're telling me that you hear Libby stating, as 397 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 2: he's obviously holding them a gunpoint from what others say 398 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 2: they hear reference to a gun on the audio telling 399 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 2: them to go down into the woods off the trestle bridge. 400 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 2: Libby says there's no place to go, there's no path, 401 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: and he says down the hill now let's connect this. 402 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 2: Then the state is introducing evidence where the leaves are disturbed. 403 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: Do you want the very same path and you ended 404 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: up on your rear end going down on your rear end. 405 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 3: We then know they confronted the creek and then. 406 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 2: For whatever reason, they were forced to wade across the creek, 407 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 2: the clothes completely soaked. I want to ask you to 408 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 2: think back, is there anything else that you could make 409 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: out on that audio or video, anything at all? Because 410 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 2: I've already learned they're saying there's no place to go, 411 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 2: there's no path, the possibility that they are saying he's 412 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: got a gun them stating is he's still there. 413 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: So we're learning a lot. 414 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: Is there any other utterance that you could make out, Barbara, No, 415 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 2: I couldn't. 416 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 7: And you don't see a gun in the video. If 417 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 7: he is showing one or has previously shown one to them, 418 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 7: that is not obvious in the video. But because of 419 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 7: the way that Libby is trying to make this recording 420 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 7: without him being aware that she's making the recording, her 421 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 7: phone is in her hand and she's motioning with that hand, 422 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 7: and so a lot of times when the phone kind 423 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 7: of comes up and shows the bridge, scene before she 424 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 7: moves her hand back down. The man is obscured behind Abby, 425 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 7: and so you don't really have a lot of great 426 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 7: video of him, even though that video is forty two 427 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 7: seconds long. It's really only bits of that video that 428 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 7: show him at all. And several of the times that 429 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 7: the camera comes back up, Libby or Abby rather is 430 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 7: completely blocking him from view. But he definitely during the 431 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 7: course of that video makes up a lot of ground. 432 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 7: Whereas he's further away from the girls at the beginning 433 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 7: of the video, by the end of the video, he 434 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 7: is caught up and is much much closer, within a 435 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 7: few feet of the girls, so. 436 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 3: Is absolutely pursuing them. When does the video audio end? 437 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 3: What's the last thing you hear? 438 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 7: You hear the rustling of he says down the hill, 439 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 7: and then it appears that they start to go down 440 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 7: that hill in that area where those leaves were disturbed, 441 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 7: and that's when it gets sort of staticky. You hear 442 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 7: a bunch of other noise, and then it just cuts out, 443 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 7: and that's the end of the video. 444 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 6: And that. 445 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 3: Was the end. 446 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 2: That's the last known utterances of those two little girls. 447 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: That was near the end of their lives, before they 448 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: were forced to wade across that creek, strip out in 449 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: the open, and then their throats were slashed. Cheryl McCollum, 450 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 2: you've said all along that you thought the had a 451 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 2: knife or a gun in his pocket or else. 452 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: Why walk that way? 453 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 3: He walked with his hands stuck in his pockets all 454 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 3: the way down that bridge. 455 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 1: Correct. 456 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 4: Not only do I think he had a weapon, I 457 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 4: think he brandished it. I think that's how he gained 458 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 4: control of the two of them without them screaming. I 459 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 4: think that's why they did exactly what he said, because 460 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 4: you know, they probably believed if we do what he 461 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 4: tells us to do, he won't hurt us. But if 462 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,959 Speaker 4: you look at him on that bridge, and I've been 463 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 4: at that bridge, my sister went on that bridge, there's 464 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,120 Speaker 4: no way you don't have your hands out, just making 465 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 4: sure you keep your balance because there is no rain, 466 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 4: right and if you were to sor I mean. 467 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 3: He's sixty feet up in the air, you're up there 468 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 3: with the treetops. 469 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 2: Philip Dubay joining me, high profile lawyer out of LA 470 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 2: He is with the Public Defender's Office. 471 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 3: What does that mean? 472 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: That means he's tried a lot of cases, a lot 473 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: of cases that he wanted to try, and a lot 474 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: of cases, and Judge shoved down his throat that he 475 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: had to try. 476 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 3: Philip, do bay. 477 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: I want to quickly touch on the legal aspect, the 478 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 2: legal argument the defense is making that they do not 479 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 2: want this tape enhanced. 480 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 3: I'm sure they don't, Philip. Do they have a leg 481 00:26:58,400 --> 00:26:58,879 Speaker 3: to stand on? 482 00:26:59,240 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 7: No, they don't. 483 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 11: I mean, let's be honest here. The evidence against mister 484 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 11: Allen is compelling. I'll give you that. I'll give everybody 485 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 11: involved in the prosecution that. But to be fair, I 486 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 11: think their only hope at this point is to chip 487 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 11: away at what the state's got and try to find 488 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 11: legal grounds to exclude it all. And I will tell you, Nancy, 489 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 11: there is no scientific reliability on voice comparison, on voice analysis, 490 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 11: and I don't believe it has ever been held to 491 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,160 Speaker 11: be scientifically reliable by the US Supreme Court the new 492 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 11: process Deby. 493 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 3: Did I ask you about making a voice comparison? 494 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 2: No? 495 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 3: I did not. 496 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 2: I know you want to talk about it because that 497 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 2: behooves the defense. But what I'm asking you is about 498 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 2: the enhancement. The defense does not want the jury to 499 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 2: hear an enhance diversion I mean Barbara McDonald, for Pete's sake, 500 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 2: had to close their eyes and straining to hear. But 501 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 2: if they enhance that audio video, it may be very 502 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: very clear, and the defense doesn't want that. 503 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 3: Now, if this were you, how would you fight that enhancement? 504 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 11: Would say that a lacks foundation and authentication that even 505 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 11: if it is enhanced. You don't have anybody coming into 506 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 11: churd to say that that enhanced version sounds just like 507 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 11: Richard Allen, Who do you really have? Who are they 508 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 11: going to put on to do that comparison? And you know, 509 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 11: the standard is not that the recording is good enough 510 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 11: passes muster. You know, it's you know, good enough for me. 511 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 11: That's not the standard. It has to be somehow scientifically 512 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 11: reliable because jury's put a lot of value, they put 513 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 11: a lot of importance on this type of evidence because 514 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 11: it comes through the court as having this imperimeter, if 515 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 11: you will, of gospel truth. So unless and untwol you 516 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 11: have some scientific foundation for it, an authentication, it absolutely 517 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 11: should be excluded from evidence. 518 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 519 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 8: Describing a photo of Libyan Abbey laying less than five 520 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 8: feet apart, their feet angled towards each other. Fourteen year 521 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 8: old Libby is nude, her skin pale as porcelain, stained 522 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 8: with blood on her hands, thigh, chest, throat, and face. 523 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 8: She's covered with twigs which criss crossed at her throat 524 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 8: and one heavy bough that lay lengthwise across her left side. 525 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 8: Thirteen year old Abbey is laying to Libby's right. She 526 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 8: is dressed in some of Libby's clothing as well as 527 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 8: her own. Sergeant Jason Page says her genes appear damp. 528 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of 529 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 2: what we are learning and to dissect and analyze the evidence, which. 530 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 3: Is crucial in this case. 531 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 2: Barbara McDonnell with me, investigative reporter, documentary producer there in Delphi. 532 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 2: This is critical, Barbara, Now, isn't it true that one 533 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: of the girls has dried blood running horizont Think of 534 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: her standing up. She has dried blood running from the 535 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 2: inner thigh horizontally across her leg to the outer thigh. 536 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 3: Explain, Yeah, so in the. 537 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 7: Photo you definitely saw an area on Libby's right thigh 538 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 7: where it looked like there were six or eight drops 539 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,479 Speaker 7: of blood. That's how the crime scene investigator described them 540 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 7: as being drops of blood. And then travel marks is 541 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 7: how he worded it, moving from the inner thigh to 542 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 7: the outer thigh, making straight lines across her thigh. There 543 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 7: were about six or eight of them, as I said, 544 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 7: and several of the reporters that I was sitting with, 545 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 7: we were trying to imagine what position Libby would have 546 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 7: been in when those marks were made, how that would 547 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 7: have been done. Again, it was described as drops of 548 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 7: blood with travel marks traveling to the outside of her thigh. 549 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 7: Each of those travel marks maybe five or six inches 550 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 7: in length. 551 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 3: That is so significant. 552 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: Barbara, guys, Barbara McDonald just straight out of the court room, 553 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: and what a day it has been, and that Delphi 554 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 2: Murderer's trial. Let's analyze what Barbara has just told us. 555 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: Josct Morgan, clearly, this is a problem for the defense. 556 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 2: The bodies were staged because that blood, by the rules 557 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: of gravity, did not run horizontally. 558 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 3: Across her leg. 559 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 2: She had to be in a position, possibly on her side, 560 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 2: where the blood dropped on her and then it ran down, 561 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: and then her body was turned back over and the 562 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: blood dried. 563 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 10: And that interesting one, two, three, four, five. What if 564 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 10: it's a point of transfer where the fingertips are super 565 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 10: saturated with blood. You place your hand on the thigh, 566 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 10: perhaps to manipulate the thigh in some way, and then 567 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 10: you go to move the body in this idea of posing, 568 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 10: and of course gravity is going to take over and 569 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 10: it's going to kind of arc away from the initial 570 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 10: point where you touched. 571 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 2: No, because these were not transfer from fingers. These were drops. 572 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 10: Blood, right, I understand that there were drops. So if 573 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 10: you have, like I said, if the fingertips are super 574 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 10: saturated with blood, and even if he's just holding over 575 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 10: like this, you're going to get this falling away, and 576 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 10: it won't fall away much. It's not going to get 577 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 10: He's not. What I'm saying is he's in very close 578 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 10: proximity to it. Maybe they are transfers, maybe they didn't 579 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 10: read them correctly, but we know that there's a robust 580 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 10: amount of blood, so much so that it would track 581 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 10: away when you move the body. It's not just merely 582 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 10: merely a smudge. This is a robust droplet of blood, 583 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 10: and then you would have to have sufficient energy to 584 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 10: get this thing to move. I think that it goes 585 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 10: probably to the manipulation of the body, maybe into posing. 586 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 3: Got it. 587 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: Barbin McDonald also there were a lot of theories at 588 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 2: the beginning that the girls were killed somewhere else and 589 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: then their bodies dumped here. As a matter of fact, 590 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 2: isn't it true, Barbara, that one of the defens's theory, 591 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 2: they've got to scatter shot theory. You like your shoot 592 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 2: the shotgun shells go, the buckshot goes everywhere. That's impossible 593 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: because the defense theory is that they were killed somewhere else, 594 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 2: brought by there and dumped And that timeline ascertation would 595 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: exclude the defendant if they were killed elsewhere and brought back, 596 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: because he can establish his whereabouts later on. So they 597 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: want to be able to establish the girls were killed 598 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: elsewhere and then brought back, possibly even the next day. 599 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: But at the beginning, when the bodies were first found, 600 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 2: there's a lot of speculation the same was quote pristine, No, 601 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 2: the same was not pristine. 602 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 3: Explained, that's right. 603 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 7: There were two very large areas of blood on the 604 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 7: ground away from the bodies. About two feet from the 605 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 7: feet of Abbey and Libby was the largest pool of 606 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 7: blood that the crime scene investigator described as the ground 607 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 7: still being saturated two and three days after the murders. 608 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 7: There was another area where there was a tree to 609 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 7: the right of Abigail, maybe two or three feet from 610 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 7: her body. That's the tree that had the so called 611 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 7: f mark on it. We found out that there were 612 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 7: two areas of blood on that tree, and then just 613 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 7: on the opposite side of the tree from where the 614 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 7: bodies were found was another pool of blood on the ground. 615 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 7: And then as you described, there was a lot of 616 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 7: blood on Libby's body. She had blood on her hands, 617 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 7: she had blood on her chest and her face. She 618 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 7: had blood on her thighs, She had blood on her 619 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 7: right heel and the back of her right calf. Abigail 620 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 7: mostly the blood was in the area of her injury 621 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 7: to her neck. Her hands were clean, her feet had 622 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 7: no blood on them, and it didn't appear that there 623 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 7: was much blood on the front of the clothing that 624 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 7: Abigail was wearing. When they rolled her over. They did 625 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 7: see a lot of blood on the back of her sweatshirt, 626 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 7: and there was another pool of blood under her body. 627 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 7: That's also where they found that second Nike shoe. It 628 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 7: was under Abigail, and then under that shoe was Libby's 629 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 7: cell phone. They described the area where the shoe and 630 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 7: the phone were as being behind the small of her back. 631 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 3: What about the phone? Where was the phone? War or 632 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 3: the phone that made. 633 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 7: This was right under that shoe, and it was face 634 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,919 Speaker 7: up and it had a lot of condensation. They said 635 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 7: on the cover. It was obscured by leaves. In the 636 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 7: first image when they removed the shoe, I struggled to 637 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 7: see the phone in that photograph. They moved the leaves 638 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 7: away and then you could see the phone. They also 639 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 7: flipped it over. It had a Harry Potter purple cover 640 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 7: on the phone with the Gryffindor logo or crest on 641 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 7: the back of it. I'm not a fan of the 642 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 7: Harry Potter series, but it was something to do with 643 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 7: the Gryffindor on the back of her phone. 644 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 5: Former Indiana State Police crime scene investigator Dwayne Donsman testified 645 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 5: finding the one piece of evidence linking Richard Allen to 646 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 5: the crime scene, the unspent bullet that prosecutors say has 647 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 5: been cycled through the same six hour model P three 648 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 5: thirty six forty caliber handgun that Alan owned. Dotsman says 649 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 5: he kept seeing a glitter in the leaves near the 650 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 5: bodies and that's where he found the forty caliber cartridge. 651 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 2: Amazing that he thought it was glitter, something shiny and sparkly. Well, 652 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 2: it was a treasure because it's the only hard evidence 653 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: the state has right now. Of course, the evidence has 654 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 2: just started. What a day it has been in that 655 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: Delphi trial courtroom. To Cheryl McCollum joining me, Cold Case 656 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 2: Investigative Research Institute founder, Cheryl, what about the bullet that 657 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 2: he first thought was glitter in the leaves? 658 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 4: I think the position is critical when you eject that bullet, 659 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 4: when you rack it and it's unstinted, it goes a 660 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 4: little backwards to the right a couple of feet. If 661 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 4: it is between the two bodies, that means it was 662 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: aimed at one of them. So when you think about 663 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 4: trying to invote fear, you're clearly trying to make one 664 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 4: of the victims petrified. That takes you to get shot, 665 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 4: but you've got a second one having to watch that. 666 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 2: Philip Dubay joining me, high profile lawyer, a real trial attorney. 667 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 2: He doesn't sit back and read depots in an office. 668 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 2: He's in the courtroom fighting it out. Philip Dubay, this 669 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: is very powerful evidence because you know markings on bullets. 670 00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 2: It's irrefutable it's like a fingerprint. So if this bullet 671 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: came from his gun, he's up the. 672 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 3: Creek without a paddle. 673 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 2: Because the other suspects, and yes, there were other pois 674 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 2: persons of interest which they will use to their benefit, 675 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 2: but none of them had this gun. 676 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 11: I don't see why it's relevant, to be honest with you, 677 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 11: because these girls weren't shot. It would be one thing 678 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 11: if they found a bullet launched in their ribcage or 679 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 11: they found spend shellcasings at the scene. Let's be honest here, 680 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 11: an unspent shewcasing does not a murder. At most, it 681 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 11: prove's presence, that's it. And who's to say that that 682 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 11: show wasn't there before the girls were brought there? So 683 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 11: I don't know how they're going to temporally prove his 684 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 11: connection to the dropping of that bullet, that case thing 685 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 11: at or near the time of the actual double homicide. 686 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,919 Speaker 11: So therefore, I think it's temporally and legally irrelevant. 687 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 2: Well that's why Philip Dobay wins all of his cases 688 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 2: because he said that with an absolute straight face. And 689 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: actually that's a legitimate argument. How do I know that 690 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 2: Richard Allen hadn't been in those woods before hunting or 691 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,919 Speaker 2: shooting or with his gun. This is a single most 692 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 2: critical piece of evidence as of yet, as of tonight, 693 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 2: because it is linking him directly to that scene. 694 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 3: But it's going to have to be argued that it 695 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 3: must be. 696 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 2: Taken in light of all the other circumstances in order 697 00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 2: for a state to get a conviction in this case. 698 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 3: We wait as just as unfolds, and. 699 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 2: Reminder we are live at the courthouse bringing you the 700 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 2: latest from the Delphi murderers trial trial. We have all 701 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 2: waited on literally for years for justice for Abbey and Libby, 702 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 2: and now we stop to remember a hero police officer 703 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 2: Logan Medlock, London, p D Kentucky, just twenty six, killed 704 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 2: by a drunk driver in the line of duty, Survived 705 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 2: by a grieving widow, Courtney and a son Brantley, American 706 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 2: hero officer Logan Medlock. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend.