WEBVTT - can AI create ‘ethical’ true crime? 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.680 I learned about the story from a reporter named Elizabeth 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:16.040 Hernandez at the Denver Post. She wrote this piece in 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:23.079 August about a murder that supposedly happened in Littleton, Colorado. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.520 On July four, twenty fourteen, just before noon, the Littleton 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.400 Police Department made a decisive move. Harrison, twenty one, a 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.600 college student and part time bartender, had been living a 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:37.080 life of turmoil and confusion. Harrison admitted to the police 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:39.640 that he had been in a secret sexual relationship with 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:41.520 his stepfather for the past two years. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.360 There was this YouTube channel that made this video and 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:48.400 it was a pretty wild case. 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.960 Welcome to True Crime Case Files. Today we uncover the 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:56.000 tragic and complex story of Richard Engelbert, a successful real 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.080 estate agent who's hidden life and secrets led to his 0:00:59.160 --> 0:00:59.960 brutal murder. 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.840 And Elizabeth Hernandez, her editor, told her about these emails 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:08.120 that the newsroom have been receiving, all linking to this video, 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:12.520 all talking about this weird murder. And her editor said, 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.319 this seems like it's a story made for you. And 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:17.360 she read these emails and there were some that just 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:19.479 said you should check out this video. This is weird. 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.280 But there were others that were mad at the Denver 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:25.479 posts that were saying, why aren't you covering this? How 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.679 could you miss such a big, horrific case. 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.320 It makes sense that people would be upset. This video 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.760 had been seen almost two million times, and frankly, it 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:40.480 was embarrassing that the story of Richard Engelbert, this grizzly 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.880 murder hadn't been covered by the local paper. How is 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.640 it that an independent YouTube channel was doing a better 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.840 job of doing an investigation than professional reporters. Well there 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:52.400 was a reason. 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.960 It was pretty quickly clear that the story was made up, 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.760 that was invented using AI, and that no such murder 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:01.760 had ever happened. 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:04.800 I talked to Henry Larson, who wrote about this not 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:08.080 so true true crime phenomenon for FO for Media. 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:11.400 My name is Henry Larson. I'm a reporter and I 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:15.600 cover typically criminal justice. This is not that at all, 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.880 so much weirder story about fake crimes. 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.520 The channel was called True Crime Case Files and it 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:26.240 had about one hundred thousand subscribers and tons of videos. 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.840 The channel itself seemed to have been making dozens and 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:34.880 dozens of similar fake crimes, pumping them out, and it 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.680 seemed like people were buying into these fake crimes thinking 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:39.240 they were real. 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:55.440 I'm afraid Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts. This is kill Switch, 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.720 I'm Dexter Thomas, I'm. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:22.840 Goodbye. 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:30.400 Henry started looking at the YouTube channel and he noticed something. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:36.640 A lot of videos on the channel were pretty perverse sexualized. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.160 Then again, so are a lot of true crime stories. 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.480 These ones just always had a particular extra element of drama. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.520 That would usually have something to do with someone in 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:51.080 a position of power murdering or taking advantage of someone 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:53.960 who had less power than them, like a sheriff and 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:56.760 the secretary, or a teacher and a student, a parent 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:57.880 and their stepchild. 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.440 There were dozens of story with that same setup, and 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.520 just as an example, let me red you some of 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:07.600 these titles here. So one of them goes judge beats 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.680 college student to death after secret gay affair ends in scandal. 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:16.640 Then couple's wife swap experiment ends in obsession and brutal murders, 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:21.359 or cheating husband murder's loyal wife and claims he was 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.640 on an acid trip. And then of course there's the 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.040 one the reporter of the dever posts got the emails 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.960 about husband's secret gay love affair, with step son, ends 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.760 in grizzly murder, and whatever you're imagining the story is like, 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:37.839 you're probably right. 0:04:39.560 --> 0:04:43.920 I will say that they got progressively more scandalous click 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:48.200 baity sexual over time. When this channel first started making 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:51.160 these videos, they were a little tamer. 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.200 The video of the went viral and alerted the Denver 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.080 Post to this fake channel was definitely from the era 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:00.559 after the channel had gotten much more scandalous. It told 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:04.560 the story of Richard Engelbert, a real estate agent who 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.520 lived a seemingly perfect life but was having a secret 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:09.400 sexual affair with his step son. 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.320 Richard kept this relationship hidden from everyone, fearing it would 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:16.919 ruin his reputation and career. In addition to this, he 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.440 continued to meet other men for sex through his work, 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.480 using the homes he showed as secret meeting places. 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.080 The whole crime took place in Littleton, Colorado, and the 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:30.400 video showed pictures of these generic looking rows of suburban homes, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.719 and for anyone who actually lived there, it was obvious 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:36.919 that this was not Lyttleton, but for people who don't 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.760 live there, it might have been convincing. All these videos 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.040 look kind of like a lower budget version of something 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:45.919 you might see on the Hallmark channel. They're usually around 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.839 twenty five minutes long. They're narrated by a host with 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:53.600 this authoritative radio voice, and there's photos of suburban living rooms, 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.359 and then there's the setup. It introduces the victim or 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:01.560 the witnesses or the perpetrator with a plausible looking photograph. 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.680 You'll see a smiling businessman with a blue suit and 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.840 bleach white teeth, or an office worker with blonde hair 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.839 and dangling earrings, and then it'll cut to a photo 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.520 of police cars parked outside the crime scene. And stories 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:16.680 are on par with a lot of true crime stuff 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:20.120 you might see on TV. Was it obvious to you 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.280 that this stuff was AI generated? 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.000 It was pretty clear to me that the narrator was 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.680 an AI generated voice, that the photos are very weird. 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.800 Everyone had impeccable veneers in the headshots that were generated 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:39.159 and looked very glossy and kind of plasticky, and so 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.120 that made me initially think, oh, okay, this is pretty obvious, right, 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.640 this has been AI generated. But then when you go 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.560 in the comments, there might be a couple people who 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:50.960 are raising of red flag saying I don't know about this. 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.039 I can't find any information about this online, but they 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.839 were drowned out by people finding specific details from the 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.640 videos and saying, I can't believe that the police missed this, 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.760 or I think that there is this theory that was overlooked, 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:09.200 or here's this other comment I have about like a 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.640 material fact that was presented in the video, and that 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.680 at least to me, showed that people were buying into this, 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.560 and combined with the people who are mad at the 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.520 Denver Post for not reporting that story, makes me think 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.960 that this was compelling to at least a fair amount 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:31.280 of this channel's viewers. Generally, people were interacting with each 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.240 other talking about the details of this fake case as 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:34.840 if it was real. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:39.800 Okay, just the recap. The images look AI generated. The 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:44.640 voice is also AI generated. Okay, it's fake and huh, 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.600 people are falling for it. Not surprising. This is the 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.080 Internet and that is where most of us would stop. 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.720 We'd close the window and go back to white day. 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.600 But Henry didn't do that. He kept digging. 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:02.480 I got really intrigued about the kind of person that 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.360 would make this video. So I found the contact email 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.160 associated with the YouTube channel and I reached out. 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.280 So hold on this person. They had just left their 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.720 contact email just on their YouTube page. 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:16.640 Yeah, they had a contact email. 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.720 Not every YouTuber does that. That's actually kind of unusual. 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:22.960 Why do you think they did that? I don't know. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.920 I think, well, I guess I have the theory. I 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:28.680 think a lot of the reason why these videos were 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:31.680 being made by this person were because they wanted to 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.959 be a filmmaker and get some attention. 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.679 So Henry gave him some of that attention. Now, just 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.440 a note in case you want to go and read 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.560 about this. The guy behind the channel, his name is 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:45.080 out there now if you want to look for it. 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:47.760 But back when Henry wrote the article and when we 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.840 did the interview, he was referring to him anonymously with 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.240 the name Paul. So that's the name that you'll hear 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:57.160 in this episode. So, yeah, what's his deal? Why did 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:58.720 you start all this up? What did he tell you? 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:04.160 He graduated from college right before the pandemic, and when 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:08.680 the pandemic hit, he was living with his parents and together. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:11.680 You know, a lot of families did all sorts of 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.760 traditions around this time. Paul and his family decided they 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.400 were going to watch dateline together, okay, and they watched 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.760 a lot of Dateline He told me he really didn't 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.960 like the show all that much, but he taught himself 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.000 the formula. He taught himself the process of the procedural 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:32.840 true crime genre. Here's the characters, here's the Grizzly murder, 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:36.679 and this lengthy investigation presenting each of the suspects in turn, 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:44.000 and then eventually a trial and some resolution for the victims. 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:47.320 This is also around the time that chat GPT is 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.840 really rolling out publicly, and he watches there's like a 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:55.720 twitch live stream of AI generated Seinfeld episodes. 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.839 Hey, yvone, did you hear about that new restaurant around 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:07.600 the corner? I remember that. Yeah, they're supposed to have 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.160 the best food in town. Yeah, I forgot all about that. 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:13.880 I heard they just opened up, and I'm dying to 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:18.240 try it, but it looks so expensive. Maybe we can 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.439 make a deal with the owner, you know, trade them 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:22.120 some of our jokes for a free meal. 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:29.160 He loved it real, he got really interesting. He was like, oh, 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.360 this is the thing. This is weird and new and 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:34.480 probably cost nothing to make. 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:39.000 So Paul decides to try his hand at AI generated content, 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.360 but before he lands on true crime, he tries a 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:43.120 different genre. 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:43.480 First. 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.000 He comes up with the bones of a plot for 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:51.800 a four to five minute Hallmark style rom com. Crucially, 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.960 he labels them as AI generated. He calls this channel 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.280 AI Film Studio. He thinks they're very good. We disagree 0:10:58.320 --> 0:10:59.880 on that. I didn't think they were very good when 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:01.440 I watch them. 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:02.920 Did you tell him that? 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:04.800 I asked him if he thought they were good, and 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.760 he said yes, and I said okay, And they bomb. 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.480 The videos do terribly that none of them cross over 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.880 one hundred views, and so for some that might sort 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.200 of been part a lesson that this technology isn't ready. 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.520 There's something weird about this format. You need some more 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.880 production value, even if you want to use AI in media. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.000 The lesson he learns is, don't tell people it's made 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:30.640 from AI. Don't tell people's think. 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.400 The other decision he makes is to focus on true crime, 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.880 and in January of twenty twenty four, he starts the 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.920 True Crime Case Files channel and he tests this idea 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:44.160 he had that maybe one of the things that was 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.080 holding him back was that he was telling people that 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.360 these videos were AI generated. So he stops doing that. 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:54.760 I mean, it turns out that maybe he wasn't wrong, 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:56.800 because his videos started to take off after that. 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.040 Yeah, in all honesty, he was success. At least for 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.480 a series of months. His channel was working. It was 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.160 working so well that other people noticed and started copying 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:12.040 his style, his formats, even the exact titles of some 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:12.840 of his videos. 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.560 And now you can find dozens of channels that are 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:19.880 all posting similar fake true crime content. There's variations in 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:22.800 different niches here and there, but it's all basically the 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:27.880 same format, AI generated images accompanied by AI generated voices 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.640 reading stories that are also probably AI generated. 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:36.160 He saw himself at the forefront of this gold rush, 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.679 this new medium of entertainment, and here he is experimenting, 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.560 trying something, and so I think part of the allure 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.480 of making AI films for him was the fact that 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.200 it was AI, was the fact that this was a 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.360 new technology. He told me he does consider himself to 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:57.559 be a filmmaker, one without a studio or expensive production costs. 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:58.920 Or in this case, I guess a camera. 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.280 Or a camera, yeah, or a microphone. 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.199 Okay, So how much of a gold rush are we talking? 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:05.439 Though? 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.439 It's a little hard to say. A few times Henry 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.400 did try asking him how much he was making, but 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:13.840 he couldn't get a straight answer. 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.760 He never told me exactly how much money he made. 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:18.640 I did learn that this was the only thing he 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.040 was working on, and as far as I know, it 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.000 was his only source of income. 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.760 All right, let's just stick with the facts for a second. 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.880 This is all fake and nobody's denying that the stories 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:37.280 are made up. The voice isn't real, the images aren't real. Yes, people, 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.160 a lot of people actually are being fooled. But does 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.360 fake mean bad? Is there anything wrong with what he's 0:13:45.360 --> 0:14:00.920 doing here? We'll get into that after the break. So 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:05.320 true crime. Listen, I don't know how you feel about 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.880 true crime. I've got some feelings. I think a lot 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:10.960 of people have some feelings about true crime. But let's 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.240 be real, it is an extremely popular genre of I'm 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.760 gonna say content. I'm gonna be as neutral as I 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:24.120 can here. Not a fan personally, But why did he 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.040 pick true crime? Do you think he. 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.320 Picked true crime because he knew the format? But Paul 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.280 has a lot of criticisms of true crime, and this 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:36.600 was actually one of the reasons why he justified his work. 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:40.440 He said, what I'm doing making these AI videos is 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.480 actually better than real true crime. 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:44.280 It's better. 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:45.080 It's better. 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:49.600 It's better because there's no real victims involved. He got 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.240 to make his videos and his money and no one suffered. 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:54.960 How did you feel about that? 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.480 I thought he was wrong. I still think he's wrong, 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.720 and I told him that. I mean, there's the reporter line, 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:05.160 which is just injecting fake information into the world is bad. 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:09.800 But there's also the component that true crime as a 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.680 medium has plenty of flaws that are not just about 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.479 the specific victim of a crime, but also our societal 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.080 understandings of criminal justice in general. We turn on the 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.400 evening news on our local TV broadcaster and it leads 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.880 with a murder in a neighborhood near us, and we 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:30.240 think that crime is going up, And we listen to 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:34.040 a true crime podcast about a serial killer, and we're 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.600 a little more nervous around our neighbors. And there's a 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.880 real societal impact that a lot of researchers have looked 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:46.560 into and analyzed about crime media impacting our perceptions of 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:47.600 actual crime. 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:48.040 Right. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.320 So, I think his work in many ways was committing 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.320 some of the same sins as the true crime genre 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:54.840 in general. 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:55.680 Right. 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.800 What you're talking about here is research essentially that shows 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:03.000 it this stuff also makes us feel like your neighborhood 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.960 is not safe, which is pro Your neighborhood's pretty safe. 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.640 You live in the suburbs, You're fine, it's gonna be okay. 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:12.600 But we watch a lot of this stuff, and if 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.440 it's maybe fun to watch, you know when you just 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:16.800 want to turn your brain off at the end of 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.160 the day, which I think is what a lot of 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.640 people do for true crime. Look, I get it, but 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.120 in the back of your mind, it also makes you 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:27.200 think that the world around you is more dangerous than 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:28.920 it actually is, and what does that do to you? 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.880 But Paul the AI True Crime creator, he had a 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:35.680 different point of view on what he was doing. 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:37.760 He said, what he was making is a form of 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:42.840 abstract art. He really liked his structural touches that he 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.440 would introduce into these videos, and at several points he 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.760 basically said, you know, I make these stories so ludicrous, 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:54.560 so insane that people should just assume that they're fake, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.640 that they didn't really happen, and if they don't get it, 0:16:59.400 --> 0:16:59.840 that's on that. 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.680 Really it was so like in an absurdist art form. 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.000 Yeah, he said what he's doing is absurdist start, and 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:07.600 he doesn't regret any of it. 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.639 Yeah, I mean like his larger artistic message is lost 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.080 on me because it sounds like complete BS. 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:16.439 I was gonna say, I'm gonna call BS on the 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:17.840 AI excuse. 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.800 You might have been wondering what actual true crime podcasters 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.960 think about all this stuff. Well you just heard from 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.639 two of them. Hi. I am Bob Mauta and my 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.560 name is Lauren brtcheck out. Bob used to be a 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.040 defense attorney. Then he made a podcast telling the story 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.240 of how his father defended the notorious serial killer John 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.920 Wayne Gacy, and since then he's been a true crime podcaster. 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.919 Lauren is a former television producer, but now she's focused 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.439 on true crime audio. She produced the podcast Happy Face, 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.640 which was about another serial killer, and that's been adapted 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.239 to a show on Paramount Plus. The two of them 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.000 work together on a true crime podcast called Murder on 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:01.000 Songbird Road. But I think what be happening here, and 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:02.879 I'm curious to hear what you think about this, is 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:07.639 this may be exposing something about the audience for true crime. 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:09.640 And I think this is one of the things that 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.560 this person who who are calling Paul is you know 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.159 this point he's trying to make, which he's saying, Well, 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.639 the stuff that he's making, This AI generated stuff is 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:24.040 actually better than real true crime because no actual victims 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:24.919 are being exploited. 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.920 That would work with the assumption that the intention of 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:34.440 all true crime creators is to exploit victims. And that's 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:39.560 the antithesis of my intention of Bob's intention. And I 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:46.720 would ask Paul, since he has wrapped this very I 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:53.080 think disingenuous scam up with the I'm teaching everybody a lesson, Bo, 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:55.280 what he's doing with the profits? 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.919 Mm hmm, Like are you are you are you sending 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.280 all the proceeds LIKECTIMS organizations, Like are you doing good 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:04.639 with it to teach your lesson? Or are you just 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.440 using that as a convenient excuse as to why you're 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.080 creating this stuff under the guys that it's actually real. 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.320 But and look, I'm going to devils advocate on Paul's 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:18.520 behalf here, true criminal defense attorney here. Yeah right, I mean, 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.600 I can't help it. So in terms of I mean, 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:26.280 there is a large chunk of creators out there in 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.440 the true crime realm that they're they are just they're 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.280 out there peddling the violence of the crimes. They are 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:38.240 not taking into consideration the victims themselves, their families that 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.480 have to live with these tragedies for generations beyond when 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.760 the crime took place. They're merely just retelling a story 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.800 that's not their story to tell, you know, and really 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:51.800 in order to just make money and look like I 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.159 have a lot of friends that do it, you know, 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:56.680 that don't like there aren't deep divers that really just 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.280 kind of sit there and reread. They'll watch a Discovery 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.880 ID thing and they'll go right up an episode about 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:02.440 it and just. 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:04.479 Speak about it with authority. 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:07.520 Right, you know. So it's like, I don't want to 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.440 offend any of the people that do that out there, 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.280 but I think that Paul might have a point as 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.760 to those type of creators because what like, really, at 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:17.080 the end of the day, what do they bringing to 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:17.560 the table? 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.879 I'm hearing YouTube really kind of distinguishing yourself from a 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.520 lot of other people who make true crime podcasts, even 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.399 though you all may you know, be situated in the 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:31.800 same podcast in the listing right, even in the same genre. 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:33.919 In this way, we could maybe think of what you 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:40.360 two do as creating really carefully prepared organic meals. It's 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.080 a lot of people who are very happy with a 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.280 bag of Cheetos. 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:45.640 I right. 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.000 I mean, like a lot of people just do like 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.960 kind of that pulp fiction quick hitter. I want to 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.040 rip open that bag of Cheetos. I want to dive in. 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.280 And it's arguably a much bigger market. 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.560 But remember the Paul talked about his work as holding 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.560 up a mirror to the industry of true crime, which 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.520 I think is actually pretty interesting as a concept. You know, 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:11.520 show the audience truly what it is that they're looking at. 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:14.560 But that made me wonder about the response of that 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:20.720 audience when he was talking about his work is absurdist art. 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:25.120 He's got to be looking at the comments. He's seen 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.480 the same comments you're seeing a lot of people. The majority, 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.960 the bulk of the comments clearly are people who do 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:34.520 not understand that this is fake. 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.879 Yeah, in large part also because he would moderate his 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.120 own comments and delete comments that would call him out 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:41.879 for his lives. 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:43.159 Did he tell you that. 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:45.640 Yeah, he said that he would go in and cut 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:49.119 comments that were negative or said that what he was 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:51.560 making was fake. He didn't get all of them, but 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:53.240 he said that he would try and get as many 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:53.720 as he could. 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:57.800 Yo, hold on, Okay, I'm sorry man. So at that point, 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:00.800 saying it's on you. If you don't get it, you 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:05.000 are manufacturing something that's fake, and you're also manufacturing an 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:09.879 echo chamber of other people of basically social proof. You know, 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.520 it's like walking into a room and everybody says, wow, 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.400 look at this amazing thing. You think, well, everybody else 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.320 thinks this thing is amazing. I suppose if I think 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:21.399 it's not amazing, something's probably wrong with me. So if 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:24.840 you watch the video, look at the comments, everybody else 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.520 seems to think it's real, You're gonna feel kind of 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:31.480 weird if you don't also go along with that. Also, like, 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:35.200 maybe it's just me. Everybody else seems to think it's real. Yeah, 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.639 that's incredible. So I don't know about you, but maybe 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.159 this does change things a little. Are we trying to 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:44.119 alert people to the danger of harmful entertainment or we 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:47.480