Speaker 1: My colleague, We'll stop commenting on everything I get my
Speaker 1: assistant eyes at people and meeting. Why does my coworker
Speaker 1: keep taking credit for all my ideas? Have any wisdom
Speaker 1: for me? Hi? I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska
Speaker 1: Manager Podcast. Right answer questions from listeners about life at work,
Speaker 1: everything from what to say if you're allergic to your
Speaker 1: coworkers perfume to what to do if you drink too
Speaker 1: much at the company party. Let's get started. Being a
Speaker 1: good manager is hard. It's especially hard when you're new
Speaker 1: to doing it, and managers often don't get a lot
Speaker 1: of guidance, even though managing is usually a whole different
Speaker 1: skill set from whatever they were doing previously. Our guest
Speaker 1: today is a new ish manager who wants to make
Speaker 1: sure she's doing a good job, and we're going to
Speaker 1: talk through how she can make that happen. Hi, and
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Hi, Thank you so much so.
Speaker 1: What you wrote to me is that you finished grad
Speaker 1: school a couple of years ago, and you started a
Speaker 1: company with a colleague and it's been more six assful
Speaker 1: than you expected it to be. And now you have
Speaker 1: three full time employees and some part time contractors. But
Speaker 1: as you wrote before this, you had never had what
Speaker 1: you would consider a real job, and suddenly you're a
Speaker 1: manager and you're living in fear of being a bad one,
Speaker 1: and you feel like things are good with your co founder,
Speaker 1: but you're struggling with how to best manage your staff,
Speaker 1: and you're not quite used to this boss employee dynamic
Speaker 1: a by getting that all right, that's exactly right. And
Speaker 1: you wrote when you first contacted me that some of
Speaker 1: your biggest concerns are getting the balance right between being
Speaker 1: a casual and fun place to work, but also making
Speaker 1: sure that people respect you enough and understand that you're
Speaker 1: making the final decisions. And you also want to be
Speaker 1: sure that you're identifying any weaknesses that you might be
Speaker 1: oblivious to, because it feels hard to get honest feedback,
Speaker 1: especially from a small team, and you're not sure how
Speaker 1: to solicit it, and more generally, just learning how to
Speaker 1: be an effective manager. Does that all sound right? That's
Speaker 1: all exactly right. Yeah. We work in like a tech
Speaker 1: startup in a field where there's usually it's pretty casual
Speaker 1: and fun, but obviously there's still lots of deadlines and
Speaker 1: things that need to be done, and then we have
Speaker 1: so far, really great staff, and I you know, it's
Speaker 1: a very competitive field and I don't want to lose them,
Speaker 1: So I'd hate to be oblivious to something terrible in
Speaker 1: my managing style and then lose an employee. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: it's great that you're thinking about it, because so many
Speaker 1: people don't even do that sort of reflection and then
Speaker 1: we get lots of bad managers who people are writing about.
Speaker 1: So before we jump into advice, tell me a little
Speaker 1: bit about how things are going, Like, do you feel
Speaker 1: like you're getting what you need from your staff and
Speaker 1: just work get done the way you want it to
Speaker 1: be done, and are you comfortable giving feedback that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. I would say it's pretty good. Um, Like
Speaker 1: the technical work is very strong. Sometimes it's hard to
Speaker 1: know how to delegate exactly, how to how much responsibility
Speaker 1: to give people was reasonable to expect in terms of
Speaker 1: how fast someone should work. Um, for some of my staff,
Speaker 1: they have the same skill, said it's me. So if
Speaker 1: I kind of can bench mark like, oh, this should
Speaker 1: take me two weeks, so maybe it will take them
Speaker 1: similar a bit longer. But with some of my staff
Speaker 1: are totally outside my field, it's it's really hard for
Speaker 1: me to even assess what's reasonable or not, and I
Speaker 1: find that hard. Yeah, it is hard. So I think
Speaker 1: what might make sense is to start with a bunch
Speaker 1: of general advice on managing in general, and then we
Speaker 1: can dive into some of those more specific questions. If
Speaker 1: that sounds good, that sounds great, Okay, Well let's start
Speaker 1: with how do you even learn to be an effective
Speaker 1: manager in the first place? And so I can't answer
Speaker 1: this question without doing a plug for my book for managers,
Speaker 1: which is called Managing to Change the World and Nonprofit
Speaker 1: Manager's Guide to Getting Results. And as you can tell
Speaker 1: from the title, it is primarily targeted to nonprofit managers,
Speaker 1: but really, like of what's in there is going to
Speaker 1: apply to managers in any sector, and it'll really walk
Speaker 1: you through the nitty gritty of how you do some
Speaker 1: of the stuff that we're about to talk about in
Speaker 1: broader term. What I had found before writing it, well
Speaker 1: co authoring it, I should say, is that a lot
Speaker 1: of the management books that are out there are pretty theoretical,
Speaker 1: but I think what managers often really want and need
Speaker 1: is the real detail of it, Like what do I
Speaker 1: say in this meeting and how exactly do I approach
Speaker 1: this issue, and what does it sound like, and how
Speaker 1: do I structure conversations about someone's performance that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: So the book really goes in detail on this is
Speaker 1: exactly how you do it. So it might be worth
Speaker 1: checking out as like a reference material. That sounds great,
Speaker 1: but let's talk bigger themes and you can use that
Speaker 1: as a reference later if you want to. So I
Speaker 1: think the biggest thing that you want to do as
Speaker 1: a manager, because everything else will stem from it, is
Speaker 1: to be really clear in your own head on what
Speaker 1: your job is, what you're there to do as a manager.
Speaker 1: And I am going to argue that your fundamental job
Speaker 1: as a manager is to make sure that your organization
Speaker 1: gets the results that it needs. There's a lot that
Speaker 1: goes into that, of course. I mean there's laying out
Speaker 1: clear expectations, setting the right goals, and hiring their people
Speaker 1: and developing them and giving them good feedback, and building
Speaker 1: a culture that supports all of those things and is
Speaker 1: somewhere that people want to work. But ultimately, those are
Speaker 1: all means to an end, and that end is achieving
Speaker 1: whatever it is that you're setting out to achieve, whatever
Speaker 1: the goals of the company are. And the reason I'm
Speaker 1: stressing that is that because a ton of managers lose
Speaker 1: sight of it. They think that their job is just
Speaker 1: to develop people or to keep their people happy, or
Speaker 1: on the other end of the spectrum, that they're there
Speaker 1: to just enforce rules or monitor people. And it is
Speaker 1: important to develop people and keep your team happy and
Speaker 1: monitor work. But those things aren't ends in themselves. You're
Speaker 1: doing them because they're part of achieving the results that
Speaker 1: you want. And again I'm belaboring this because if you
Speaker 1: lose sight of it, you will find yourself prioritizing the
Speaker 1: wrong things, like you'll find yourself avoiding making a decision
Speaker 1: that will be unpopular, or shying away from a hard
Speaker 1: conversation because you don't want to make someone unhappy, and
Speaker 1: so forth. So that's point number one. Look at everything
Speaker 1: through the lens of how it supports you achieving whatever
Speaker 1: it is that you want to be achieving. From there,
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to run through some of the
Speaker 1: fundamentals that you want to be thinking about and doing
Speaker 1: as a manager. And honestly, each of these could be
Speaker 1: a book in itself, so I'm not going to get
Speaker 1: terribly in depth on any of them. Unless you jump
Speaker 1: in and tell me that you do want to go deeper,
Speaker 1: and feel free to do that with any of these.
Speaker 1: But otherwise, this is just kind of a list to
Speaker 1: get you thinking about the areas that you want to
Speaker 1: be paying special attention to. There's that sort of you
Speaker 1: don't know what you don't know kind of things, So
Speaker 1: so I would say look at this as a list
Speaker 1: of areas to make sure that you're being thoughtful about.
Speaker 1: So the first and maybe the biggest one is being
Speaker 1: really clear with yourself and with your team about what
Speaker 1: you want them to do and what it would look
Speaker 1: like to do it successfully. And I know that sounds
Speaker 1: really obvious, but people don't always do it very effectively,
Speaker 1: and if you don't, it's really easy for you and
Speaker 1: the people working with you to get pulled in a
Speaker 1: bunch of different directions instead of figuring out what are
Speaker 1: the most important things for us to achieve and focusing there. So,
Speaker 1: for the organization as a whole and for each individual
Speaker 1: person who works for you, you you want to get really
Speaker 1: clear on what would a successful year look like. If
Speaker 1: it's the end of the year and we're looking back
Speaker 1: on the previous twelve months, what do we want to
Speaker 1: have achieved for it to have been a successful year.
Speaker 1: That way, by hashing that out and creating really clear
Speaker 1: goals for that time period based on that, everyone's going
Speaker 1: to be on the same page about what successful work
Speaker 1: and their role looks like. And you're not going to
Speaker 1: have people wondering, am I doing a good job? Am
Speaker 1: I doing the things she wants me to be doing?
Speaker 1: And you're not going to have people spending time on
Speaker 1: things that ultimately are trumped by things that are more
Speaker 1: important to you. Does that make sense? Definitely? Yeah? And
Speaker 1: how does that? How do you balance like say an
Speaker 1: employee where you don't really know how to do their jobs,
Speaker 1: so you can explain what you want them to do,
Speaker 1: but not exactly how you want them to do it. Yes,
Speaker 1: So hopefully you've hired someone who has a track record
Speaker 1: of getting those things done or getting things that are
Speaker 1: very similar and done, so you have some reason to
Speaker 1: put your trust in in their skills and their ability
Speaker 1: to achieve those things. And then I would say talk
Speaker 1: to them, you know, talk through I would explicitly ask
Speaker 1: the question, what is reasonable for us to accomplish accomplish
Speaker 1: this year? What I'm hoping is that we could do X,
Speaker 1: Y and Z. What do you think is that realistic?
Speaker 1: Is that enough? Is it not ambitious enough? And have
Speaker 1: that conversation with them, and it should be kind of
Speaker 1: a collaborative process if you've hired the right people. If
Speaker 1: you've hired people who don't have those skills to do it,
Speaker 1: that's a real problem if you don't have those skills either,
Speaker 1: because then you can't can't train them. But I'm assuming
Speaker 1: that you feel pretty confident. You said you're happy with
Speaker 1: your team. Yes, yes, exactly, so yeah, I would just
Speaker 1: have that conversation and it's it's completely okay. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think sometimes especially when people are first managing, they
Speaker 1: feel like people expect them to have all the answers. Actually,
Speaker 1: it really enhances your credibility when you admit that you don't.
Speaker 1: It's completely fine to sit down with someone and say,
Speaker 1: I'm really going to be leaning on you to help
Speaker 1: me figure this out because this is your area of expertise,
Speaker 1: so let's talk through this and I think what you
Speaker 1: want to have. And this touches on on your question
Speaker 1: earlier about like, how do you know if you're not
Speaker 1: an expert in their area that their timelines are reasonable?
Speaker 1: And the quality of their work is reasonable. I think
Speaker 1: you need to have a pretty good BS detector to
Speaker 1: some extent. If you're if you're like Spidy, sense is
Speaker 1: going off and telling you like this just doesn't sound
Speaker 1: right to me. Don't dismiss that just because they are
Speaker 1: more expert than you are. I would take that as
Speaker 1: a flag that something's going on there and you should
Speaker 1: sit down and dig into it. Maybe the thing that's
Speaker 1: going on is that you just have some incorrect assumptions,
Speaker 1: and by talking to them you can straighten that out.
Speaker 1: But maybe there is something more going on. I mean,
Speaker 1: one thing that I have found is that when I
Speaker 1: am managing areas of work that aren't my area of expertise,
Speaker 1: they're there's always small things that I do understand that,
Speaker 1: Like I will understand like oh, that person is really
Speaker 1: great at follow through, or they're not so great at
Speaker 1: follow through, or the way they're explaining this to this
Speaker 1: client like really doesn't make sense, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that person is understanding it. There's like there's pieces like
Speaker 1: that that you will be equipped to judge, and I
Speaker 1: would put real weight on those because in my experience,
Speaker 1: you can extrapolate pretty well the small pieces that you
Speaker 1: are equipped to understand will usually lead you in the
Speaker 1: right to action. Right that totally makes sense. I mean
Speaker 1: not not entirely, of course, I don't want to overstate that,
Speaker 1: but more often than not that will be the case.
Speaker 1: And when you're having those conversations with people, when you're saying,
Speaker 1: you know, help me figure this out. I want to
Speaker 1: lean any for your expertise, you're going to get a
Speaker 1: feel for how you know, do I trust what they're saying?
Speaker 1: Does it make sense to me? Does it seem logically
Speaker 1: sound owned to do it? Does their critical thinking here
Speaker 1: seem on target? Or does it not? And that stuff
Speaker 1: is all going to point you in a direction of
Speaker 1: either Okay, yes, this person I can rely on this person.
Speaker 1: They seem incredible, they know what they're doing, or oh,
Speaker 1: it feels like there's a lot of red flags here.
Speaker 1: Absolutely if it does turn out that you're seeing red
Speaker 1: flags and you do think maybe this person isn't doing
Speaker 1: what I need them to do or they're not right
Speaker 1: for the role, but then you might be thinking like,
Speaker 1: but it might even really equipped to assess that. That
Speaker 1: is when you come back to the goals that we
Speaker 1: were just talking about setting if you're really clear at
Speaker 1: the outside of the year, the six month period, or
Speaker 1: whatever time period you choose. If you're really clear, you
Speaker 1: both get aligned and you both agree, this is what
Speaker 1: we're going to achieve in this time period, this is
Speaker 1: what success would look like. You're going to have really
Speaker 1: good data on whether or not that's actually happening, right,
Speaker 1: and then you can kind of assess did this happen
Speaker 1: and if not, why not? And then that would give
Speaker 1: you the kind of that information exactly. It makes it
Speaker 1: really easy to assess performance. Let's pause here for a
Speaker 1: short break and we'll come right back and keep talking.
Speaker 1: So we were just talking about clarity for expectations for
Speaker 1: a big chunk of time, like a year, but you
Speaker 1: also want to be really clear about expectations on a
Speaker 1: smaller level too, Like if you're assigning a project, you
Speaker 1: want to take the time to really talk through whatever
Speaker 1: is in your head about it. It's really easy as
Speaker 1: a manager to to delegate very quickly. You know, three sentences,
Speaker 1: can you take care of this for me? Here's the deadline.
Speaker 1: But if you don't have a longer conversation, you're I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously not everything requires a longer conversation. But it's if
Speaker 1: it's a pretty major project and you don't really talk
Speaker 1: it through, you're setting yourself in the staff person up
Speaker 1: for frustration when they put a bunch of work in
Speaker 1: and then it comes back to you and you say, oh,
Speaker 1: this isn't really what I was talking about. That sucks
Speaker 1: for everyone. It's not a good use of people's time.
Speaker 1: So I would say, really invest on the front end
Speaker 1: in making sure that if you do have expectations in
Speaker 1: your head about how something will go or what it
Speaker 1: will look like when it comes back to you, that
Speaker 1: you're very deliberate about sharing that with your staff so
Speaker 1: that they're not trying to guess and they're not getting blindsided,
Speaker 1: they're not finding out halfway through she had these expectations
Speaker 1: that she didn't tell me about. Yes, absolutely, And then
Speaker 1: you also want to apply that at another level too,
Speaker 1: So not just long term goals, not just individual projects,
Speaker 1: but also how people are operating in general, how you
Speaker 1: expect them to approach their work. Like, just to give
Speaker 1: you a random example, if you wouldn't like it if
Speaker 1: they took more than like a day to return a
Speaker 1: client's phone call, tell them that. Make sure they know
Speaker 1: that what people tend to do is they don't make
Speaker 1: those implicit expectations explicit, and so people don't meet those expectations,
Speaker 1: and then they get really frustrated and they're wondering, like,
Speaker 1: why is why is this person waiting days to return
Speaker 1: a client's phone call? They should just know that they
Speaker 1: should return it within a day. Well, maybe I mean
Speaker 1: to thing in your context, maybe they should just know.
Speaker 1: But you're setting everyone up for failure if you don't
Speaker 1: just tell them. So you probably have a lot of
Speaker 1: expectations in your head of like how we do things
Speaker 1: here or how we definitely don't do things here, And
Speaker 1: I would be very deliberate about pulling that stuff out
Speaker 1: of your head, whatever it is, so that you can
Speaker 1: share it with people and you don't end up you
Speaker 1: and they don't end up frustrated. Yes, that definitely makes
Speaker 1: good sense. Another thing kind of related to clear expectations
Speaker 1: is feedback. So giving people feedback on their work is
Speaker 1: really key part of your job. And that doesn't just
Speaker 1: mean feedback when something goes wrong or needs to be changed.
Speaker 1: It means kind of feedback all the time, feedback on
Speaker 1: what's going well and what could be better, and how
Speaker 1: someone could go from pretty good to really great. How
Speaker 1: comfortable are you with giving feedback? Very comfortable with giving
Speaker 1: positive feedback? We do lots of that, and negative I
Speaker 1: think I find a little bit harder. Yeah, most people do.
Speaker 1: Most people actually, I think most people start when they
Speaker 1: start managing. There at one end of the spectrum or
Speaker 1: the other. I think yours is the most common. Like,
Speaker 1: it feels good to give praise, I can do that.
Speaker 1: It's a little more awkward to give critical feedback. But
Speaker 1: there are also people who do the reverse, who are
Speaker 1: like super comfortable with the criticism and it doesn't care
Speaker 1: the piece um. But it's really normal to feel a
Speaker 1: little awkward about criticism. The easiest way to do it
Speaker 1: is to get in the habit of giving feedback on
Speaker 1: a really regular basis and to sort of build it
Speaker 1: in two existing structures. So like, if you have regular
Speaker 1: one and one meetings with your staff, have every time,
Speaker 1: have part of those meetings be to debrief recent projects.
Speaker 1: Like put it on the agenda. You can even call
Speaker 1: it a debriefing because then it's not so scary like
Speaker 1: feedback is. You're just talking about how a recent produ
Speaker 1: jicked went. But if you make it a thing where
Speaker 1: you're doing it every time and it's built into how
Speaker 1: you operate, it won't be so hard to initiate when
Speaker 1: you do have some serious criticism. You know, sometimes people
Speaker 1: don't do that. They give praise and it's fine, and
Speaker 1: then one day there's actually a serious issue they have
Speaker 1: to talk about and they're like, oh no, and it
Speaker 1: feels really dramatic, and they're calling someone into the conference
Speaker 1: room and they've got a box of tissues there and
Speaker 1: it feels like this big, serious thing. But it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be that. If you build it into your
Speaker 1: existing structure so that you're always debriefing and you're always
Speaker 1: talking about how things are going, it's going to be
Speaker 1: so much less dramatic and stressful for everyone. Yes, that
Speaker 1: makes total sense. And do you do you think it's
Speaker 1: a good idea to do kind of the compliment sandwich
Speaker 1: to have always kind of used that where you say, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, you're doing these things well and this one
Speaker 1: thing could use work, and then oh, here's some other
Speaker 1: things you're doing well. Or do you think that's not
Speaker 1: the best way to go? So I am not a
Speaker 1: huge fan of the compliment sandwhich I know some people
Speaker 1: like it. And find it really useful. And if you
Speaker 1: feel like it's working for you and for your staff, great,
Speaker 1: But i'll tell you why I don't love it. One
Speaker 1: is sometimes people start to recognize what you're doing, and
Speaker 1: so every time you praise them, they start bracing themselves
Speaker 1: thinking like, oh no, what is she about to criticize?
Speaker 1: So you don't want that, and you also don't want
Speaker 1: people to feel like you're dealing with them by formula.
Speaker 1: The thing is that sometimes it means the message can
Speaker 1: be lost that the person either just here's the positive
Speaker 1: stuff and doesn't think that the critical part is that
Speaker 1: big of a deal because look, you just said all
Speaker 1: this positive stuff about their work, or the opposite of
Speaker 1: that happens. They just hear the criticism and they completely
Speaker 1: forget the positive things that you said, And you don't
Speaker 1: want that. You want to make sure that you're giving
Speaker 1: them praise in a in a way that's really going
Speaker 1: to register with them. So I think people turn to
Speaker 1: the compliment sandwich because it feels a little better to
Speaker 1: do it that way. Yeah, but I think you can
Speaker 1: give criticism in a way that feels safe for the
Speaker 1: person and that feels supportive and where it's clear that
Speaker 1: you are not questioning their entire fit for the role.
Speaker 1: And the part of the way to do it, something
Speaker 1: that really will make it easier is if you do
Speaker 1: normalize it, if it does become just a normal part
Speaker 1: of the conversations that you're having when you check in
Speaker 1: weekly or bi weekly or whatever it is, right and
Speaker 1: not be like, oh, we need to have this big
Speaker 1: talk exactly. And if you also are sure that you're
Speaker 1: giving positive feedback and it sounds like you are, that's
Speaker 1: going to help with that feeling that people will sometimes
Speaker 1: get where they like you give them a piece of
Speaker 1: criticism and they think their their whole job is in jeopardy. Now,
Speaker 1: some people would think that no matter what you do.
Speaker 1: But but in general, as long as you're giving more
Speaker 1: praise than you are criticism, most people are going to
Speaker 1: take that pretty well. If you're not giving more praise
Speaker 1: than criticism, then I would look at is that a
Speaker 1: problem with the way that you're managing or is it
Speaker 1: a flag that maybe there's some pretty serious concerns about
Speaker 1: the person's fit for the job? Right, Okay, let's see.
Speaker 1: Another big area to think about is that a key
Speaker 1: part of your job as a manager is to build
Speaker 1: a great team. And I say that because you don't
Speaker 1: want to be passive about it. You want to put
Speaker 1: real energy into hiring good people and the flip side
Speaker 1: of that addressing it when someone really isn't working out now,
Speaker 1: doing that means being a place that good people want
Speaker 1: to work so treating people well and being fair and
Speaker 1: being open and compassionate while still holding a high bar
Speaker 1: for the work that you're doing. UM when we started
Speaker 1: out at the start of the show and I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: sometimes people think that managing is just all about supporting
Speaker 1: their team. I'm not being dismissive of that. I think
Speaker 1: supporting your team is really important. It's important for this
Speaker 1: reason that it will help you attract and retain good
Speaker 1: people if you're someone that people want to work for
Speaker 1: in your company that people want to work in UM
Speaker 1: And I mean, obviously it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't mean to discount that, but ultimately
Speaker 1: it's part of building a company that is going to
Speaker 1: run really well over time. And part of that I
Speaker 1: think is being really deliberate about the culture that you're creating.
Speaker 1: And that's not really stuff like do you have a
Speaker 1: foodsball table in the office. Although I know that it
Speaker 1: gets talked about that way a lot, it's more that
Speaker 1: the how we do things around here stuff that is
Speaker 1: important to how the company functions. So it's stuff like
Speaker 1: what kind of energy is in the office most days,
Speaker 1: and how do people interact, and how do you handle
Speaker 1: new ideas and how accountable to do people feel for
Speaker 1: their work. It tends to not get culture tends to
Speaker 1: not get a lot of attention with a small staff,
Speaker 1: but it's something to have in your head to be
Speaker 1: thinking about, especially if you keep growing and bringing new
Speaker 1: people on. Yeah, it's something that's actually made us grow
Speaker 1: a bit smaller on purpose, is because we're afraid to
Speaker 1: double in size over night and we feel like our
Speaker 1: culture may just kind of get away from us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: growth is really hard, especially when you're going from from
Speaker 1: pretty small to not quite as small. It's very very
Speaker 1: common to find that the practices and systems or in
Speaker 1: some case lack of practices and systems that that worked
Speaker 1: for you at a small size they don't really translate
Speaker 1: as you get bigger. And you think that's true of
Speaker 1: culture too, and it just becomes all the more important
Speaker 1: to be very deliberate about it. Yeah, that totally makes sense.
Speaker 1: Let's go to another break here, and when we come back,
Speaker 1: let's dig in more to the specific questions that you had. Okay,
Speaker 1: we are back. So you mentioned in your letter to
Speaker 1: me that you're concerned about getting the balance right between
Speaker 1: being a casual and funt place to work, but also
Speaker 1: making sure that people respect you enough that they understand
Speaker 1: that you make the final decisions. How do you feel
Speaker 1: like that's going so far. Does it feel like it's
Speaker 1: more or less okay? Or have there been issues? I
Speaker 1: feel like we we definitely are airing on the side
Speaker 1: of a fun, happy place to work, and we certainly
Speaker 1: have done good work and have good feedback on our clients,
Speaker 1: and so that part's going really well. But I think
Speaker 1: sometimes deadlines aren't taken as seriously as they could be.
Speaker 1: How do you handle deadlines? Like if someone misses a deadline,
Speaker 1: what happens? Like, say, when it happened recently, I had
Speaker 1: a conversation with someone about getting something done by a
Speaker 1: certain date, and then when that date came up, I
Speaker 1: asked her how it was going, and she said basically like, oh,
Speaker 1: she might be able to get part of it done
Speaker 1: by the end of the day, and I was a
Speaker 1: little unsure how to deal with that, to be honest,
Speaker 1: because I I just said something like, oh, I thought
Speaker 1: you knew that this was a deadline and that if
Speaker 1: you couldn't meet it, you would at least let me know.
Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, So that that's something I've been struggling
Speaker 1: a little bit with, is how do I I mean,
Speaker 1: I made a pretty clear that you know, we need
Speaker 1: to meet the deadlines a bit better, but I'm not
Speaker 1: really sure exactly what what I should have done differently,
Speaker 1: because I'm pretty sure it's something to do with my management,
Speaker 1: is why that happened, And I don't know exactly what
Speaker 1: it was. How clear were you when you first set
Speaker 1: the deadline? Sometimes people I think that they have communicated
Speaker 1: to deadline clearly, but in reality they've it's come across
Speaker 1: as more of a suggestion like it would be great
Speaker 1: if you could do this by Tuesday, but the person
Speaker 1: hears that as well, Tuesday would be great, but Friday
Speaker 1: would be fine too. So do you do you remember
Speaker 1: how clear you were? I feel like I was fairly clear,
Speaker 1: but I also know that I gave her a bunch
Speaker 1: of other things to do after that that we're less urgent,
Speaker 1: but she may have interpreted them as well, I should
Speaker 1: be working on these now instead or in addition to
Speaker 1: so the deadline now was a little bit less important.
Speaker 1: I don't think I explicitly said, but wait and do
Speaker 1: these things after How much time was there between when
Speaker 1: you first made the assignment and when it was due
Speaker 1: about a week okay, so enough time that she could
Speaker 1: have come back to you and said, hey, I'm I
Speaker 1: have concerned about my ability to meet this deadline. Definitely,
Speaker 1: So I think a couple of things. You might be right.
Speaker 1: It really might just be it was like this one time,
Speaker 1: fluke and she just had a bunch of other things
Speaker 1: going on. But I suspect you're bringing it up because
Speaker 1: it feels like more of a pattern. So I think
Speaker 1: a couple of things. One, do be very clear when
Speaker 1: you're setting deadlines, and you might be um, but make
Speaker 1: sure that it's not sounding like a suggestion. Make sure
Speaker 1: it's you know, I will need this by the end
Speaker 1: of the day, you know what. I would even be
Speaker 1: more explicit because the end of the day can be
Speaker 1: interpreted as five o'clock or eleven o'clock at night. So
Speaker 1: let me back up. I would say, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: I need this by five pm on Tuesday. Do you
Speaker 1: think you'll be able to do that? So you're getting
Speaker 1: their commitment to it. And then if the deadline comes
Speaker 1: and the person is being kind of wishy washy, you
Speaker 1: know the conversation that you had or she was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's going to happen. Um, two things.
Speaker 1: In the moment, you can say, oh, I really do
Speaker 1: need it by the end of today. What can Is
Speaker 1: there anything you can move around to make that happen,
Speaker 1: so that your intent is very clear. You're not being
Speaker 1: loosey goosey about this deadline. You're making it very clear
Speaker 1: that you really do need it. In some cases the
Speaker 1: person might be able to pull that off and in
Speaker 1: other cases maybe not. Either way, though, afterward, have a
Speaker 1: conversation about it, because this is how you get deadlines
Speaker 1: taken seriously in your culture. You don't just kind of
Speaker 1: let it go and feel annoyed about it. You talk
Speaker 1: about it, and that means sitting down with her. And
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be like a whole special meeting
Speaker 1: just for this. It can be the next time you
Speaker 1: have like a weekly check in or something. But you say, hey,
Speaker 1: I know we had talked about having project X do
Speaker 1: on Tuesday. What happened there? And that's it. That's all
Speaker 1: you need to say. What happened there? Those are your
Speaker 1: magic words for accountability, because what it's doing is, well,
Speaker 1: it's doing a few things. Most importantly, it's communicating this
Speaker 1: is actually a problem that we're going to talk about.
Speaker 1: I'm concerned that it didn't happen, and it's a big
Speaker 1: enough issue that we're talking about why it played out
Speaker 1: that way. But also you're giving the person a chance
Speaker 1: to give you information that you might not have. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe what happened is you gave her three other projects
Speaker 1: that had sooner deadlines, or um, maybe she was really sick,
Speaker 1: or she was learning from home when her power went out,
Speaker 1: or who knows. There could be reasons. So you don't
Speaker 1: want to just launch into a lecture. You want to
Speaker 1: make sure that you're hearing the person out and getting
Speaker 1: their perspective, and frankly, you don't even need the lecture
Speaker 1: at that point, just the what happened is usually enough
Speaker 1: of the conversation. Now, if it keeps happening, you don't
Speaker 1: want to just keep having but what happened conversation week
Speaker 1: after week. That would be not good if it becomes
Speaker 1: a pattern. Then you talk about the pattern, and then
Speaker 1: the conversation is, Hey, I'm concerned, there's this pattern. You've
Speaker 1: missed a bunch of deadlines recently. What's going on? Oh, look,
Speaker 1: it's actually a version of what happened, but you're talking
Speaker 1: about the pattern at that point. But for the one time,
Speaker 1: what happened is usually enough. And sometimes I think managers
Speaker 1: feel like, am I supposed to be like coming down
Speaker 1: harder on the person? And what would that even look like?
Speaker 1: But really, like, these are adults, they're presumably good at
Speaker 1: their jobs. You hired them because you trusted them. What
Speaker 1: happened is a respectful way to address it and convey
Speaker 1: your concern about it. Now, if they're not people who
Speaker 1: you trust to do your job, that's a totally different issue.
Speaker 1: But but it sounds like they are. They are. Definitely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let me ask you this. A lot of new managers
Speaker 1: feel kind of awkward about having authority and exercising authority.
Speaker 1: It just feels weird. Do you feel weird about it? Yes? Definitely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so super normal. I think it feels weird for like,
Speaker 1: I mean, a minimum of one year, and I think
Speaker 1: for most people a few years. The interesting thing, and
Speaker 1: I think it really helps to remember it, is that
Speaker 1: if you have decent employees, they probably don't feel weird
Speaker 1: about it at all, Like it's normal to have a boss.
Speaker 1: It probably feels like a completely normal, matter of fact
Speaker 1: thing that you have authority over them. You probably have
Speaker 1: a bigger hang up about it than in they do.
Speaker 1: I think that's true. And Label had bobs before and
Speaker 1: had managers before, so I think for them it's very normal. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: and like if you think about, well, you said you
Speaker 1: haven't had a real job history. I was going to say,
Speaker 1: if you think about times when you've had a boss,
Speaker 1: you probably didn't feel really awkward about the fact that
Speaker 1: they had authority. Um, but but yeah, in their shoes,
Speaker 1: they probably don't feel weird. So it's not weird unless
Speaker 1: you make it weird. And you can make it weird,
Speaker 1: are being noticeably uncomfortable about it, or like really holding
Speaker 1: off on addressing issues or dancing around it like that
Speaker 1: thing I was talking about about presenting things as suggestions
Speaker 1: when they're really not suggestions is a really common trap
Speaker 1: when someone doesn't feel comfortable with authority. It's easier to say, well,
Speaker 1: Tuesday would be great if you can get to it,
Speaker 1: rather than a more authoritative I need this by Tuesday, right,
Speaker 1: which is actually so much more actionable, so right, And
Speaker 1: it's better for the person you're managing to let them
Speaker 1: know what you need so that they can meet those expectations.
Speaker 1: So really, the more matter of fact you can be
Speaker 1: about having authority, the more comfortable everyone will be. But
Speaker 1: you do have to fake it for for a while.
Speaker 1: It's not going to come naturally. Just like totally pretend
Speaker 1: that you feel comfortable with it, and at some point
Speaker 1: you will look around and realize that you do, but
Speaker 1: it takes a while. That makes sense, I think to like,
Speaker 1: most of the time you want to be taking a
Speaker 1: pretty collaborative approach with the all that you manage. You know,
Speaker 1: you respect their opinions and their input and you want
Speaker 1: to hear from them and and then you'll do your
Speaker 1: own job, which is using that input from them to
Speaker 1: make decisions. But you can be collaborative, like I think
Speaker 1: sometimes when people start managing, they have this idea in
Speaker 1: their head that they're supposed to be like the boss,
Speaker 1: like really rigid and just like delivering these orders, and
Speaker 1: you can be collaborative with people because you do have
Speaker 1: the authority to use when you need to. So if
Speaker 1: you do need to step in at some point and say,
Speaker 1: you know, hey, I actually want us to do this
Speaker 1: a little bit differently, or we're going to go in
Speaker 1: a different direction, you have the authority to say that,
Speaker 1: but you don't need to be like exuding that authority
Speaker 1: all the time. You can just treat them like a
Speaker 1: normal colleague most of the time, right, Okay, Well, that's
Speaker 1: good to know because that's that tends to be what
Speaker 1: we do good. And I think you had asked about
Speaker 1: like making it clear that even though you have a
Speaker 1: pretty casual culture, there are times when you'll be making
Speaker 1: the final decision, and I think just be a matter
Speaker 1: of fact about that too, to be clear about your
Speaker 1: decision making structure, because where people run into problems with
Speaker 1: this is when they're so collaborative that they say things
Speaker 1: that signal that a decision is a group decision when
Speaker 1: they don't actually mean that. So you just want to
Speaker 1: be upfront and transparent, like you might say at the
Speaker 1: start of the discussion, you know, I'm figuring out how
Speaker 1: we're going to handle X, and I'd love to get
Speaker 1: your input as they make the decision. Yes, I think
Speaker 1: that's the balance I need to strike better. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you're like welcoming and inviting their input, but you're using
Speaker 1: that input because you're making the decision. Or you could say, like,
Speaker 1: I need to make a decision about X, I'd love
Speaker 1: any thoughts you have on it, or like if something
Speaker 1: is sensitive, you might even be more explicit about it,
Speaker 1: like you could say, hey, I want to note that
Speaker 1: we're not going to decide this as a group, but
Speaker 1: I do want to get everyone's input and advice. And
Speaker 1: then if you do make a decision that is different
Speaker 1: from what people wanted, just explain why you ended up
Speaker 1: there and be clear that you did consider their input
Speaker 1: and your thinking and why you ultimately went in a
Speaker 1: different direct, because most people are going to feel respected
Speaker 1: if it's clear that you heard them out and you
Speaker 1: took their inputs seriously, even if you ultimately made a
Speaker 1: different choice. Yeah, excellent. Now you also mentioned you want
Speaker 1: to be sure that you're spotting any weaknesses that you
Speaker 1: have and that it's hard to get candid feedback from
Speaker 1: people you're managing, which is very true. One of the
Speaker 1: best ways to do it is to just create a
Speaker 1: culture where people feel safe talking to you, that they
Speaker 1: know that they won't be penalized in some way for
Speaker 1: being candid. Honestly, it's hard to do because some people
Speaker 1: have had bosses in the past who did penalize them
Speaker 1: for being candid, or they grew up in a family
Speaker 1: that like really reinforced that posses through the enemy. Some
Speaker 1: people just won't be that candid with managers, but a
Speaker 1: lot of people will if you demonstrate that it's safe
Speaker 1: for them to do it. But you can also make
Speaker 1: a point of asking probing questions every so often, like
Speaker 1: periodically asking people how things are going, and what would
Speaker 1: make their jobs easier, if there's anything that you personally
Speaker 1: could be doing differently, and that kind of thing. And
Speaker 1: if you have created an environment where it's safe for
Speaker 1: people to speak openly and you ask those questions and
Speaker 1: you make it clear you really want the answers, you'll hear, well,
Speaker 1: you'll hear some of it, you still because there's power
Speaker 1: dynamics there. But the other thing is to develop relationships
Speaker 1: with other people, people who you don't manage, who you
Speaker 1: trust to be straight with you. So maybe that's your
Speaker 1: co founder. Maybe it's colleagues and other companies so you
Speaker 1: can bounce things off of. Maybe it's like a mentor
Speaker 1: type figure. But the idea is to diversify to figure.
Speaker 1: You're probably never going to hear everything there is to
Speaker 1: hear from your own staff, but that if you work
Speaker 1: on developing good, trusting relationships across the range of people,
Speaker 1: your chances go up. Right. That makes sense, not just
Speaker 1: relying on them to tell me their deepest, darkest feelings exactly. Oh,
Speaker 1: and this is really important. Part of making people feel
Speaker 1: safe sharing input with you is to demonstrate that you
Speaker 1: don't shoot the messenger. And I know we all think like, oh,
Speaker 1: I would never shoot the messenger, but like people do it.
Speaker 1: A lot of people do it. So if people who
Speaker 1: you manage see you get angry or like visibly frustrated
Speaker 1: when you get bad news or you hear something you
Speaker 1: don't like or agree with, they are never going to
Speaker 1: give you honest feedback about their own weaknesses. It's just
Speaker 1: not worth that risk. And you're always kind of on
Speaker 1: stage as a manager, like people are watching your reactions
Speaker 1: to all kinds of things, even if you don't feel
Speaker 1: like you're in an official moment of managing, and so
Speaker 1: if you react badly to bad news, there goes your
Speaker 1: chances of candidate and put down the road. So never
Speaker 1: shoot the messenger if you want real feedback that makes sense. Well,
Speaker 1: hopefully this was helpful. Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1: It really was. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to the Asking Manager podcast. If you'd like to come
Speaker 1: on the show to talk through your own question, email
Speaker 1: it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org, or you
Speaker 1: can leave a recording of your question by calling eight
Speaker 1: five five six work. That's eight five five T six
Speaker 1: nine seven five. You can get more ask a Manager
Speaker 1: at ask a Manager dot org or in my book
Speaker 1: Ask a Manager how to navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses,
Speaker 1: and the rest of your life at work. They Ask
Speaker 1: a Manager show is a partnership with How Stuff Works
Speaker 1: and is produced by Paul Deckett. If you liked what
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Speaker 1: I'm Alison Green and I'll be back next week with
Speaker 1: another one of your questions.