WEBVTT - How can I be a good manager? 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:05.880 My colleague, We'll stop commenting on everything I get my 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.840 assistant eyes at people and meeting. Why does my coworker 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.240 keep taking credit for all my ideas? Have any wisdom 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:14.360 for me? Hi? I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:18.640 Manager Podcast. Right answer questions from listeners about life at work, 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.080 everything from what to say if you're allergic to your 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.599 coworkers perfume to what to do if you drink too 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:28.400 much at the company party. Let's get started. Being a 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:32.240 good manager is hard. It's especially hard when you're new 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.080 to doing it, and managers often don't get a lot 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:38.160 of guidance, even though managing is usually a whole different 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.520 skill set from whatever they were doing previously. Our guest 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.360 today is a new ish manager who wants to make 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:46.600 sure she's doing a good job, and we're going to 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:49.159 talk through how she can make that happen. Hi, and 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.599 welcome to the show. Hi, Thank you so much so. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.160 What you wrote to me is that you finished grad 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.480 school a couple of years ago, and you started a 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.400 company with a colleague and it's been more six assful 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.160 than you expected it to be. And now you have 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.600 three full time employees and some part time contractors. But 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.319 as you wrote before this, you had never had what 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:11.959 you would consider a real job, and suddenly you're a 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.560 manager and you're living in fear of being a bad one, 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:17.480 and you feel like things are good with your co founder, 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:20.240 but you're struggling with how to best manage your staff, 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.120 and you're not quite used to this boss employee dynamic 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:27.720 a by getting that all right, that's exactly right. And 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:29.880 you wrote when you first contacted me that some of 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:33.920 your biggest concerns are getting the balance right between being 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.560 a casual and fun place to work, but also making 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:39.600 sure that people respect you enough and understand that you're 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:42.120 making the final decisions. And you also want to be 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:44.880 sure that you're identifying any weaknesses that you might be 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.720 oblivious to, because it feels hard to get honest feedback, 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:50.880 especially from a small team, and you're not sure how 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.200 to solicit it, and more generally, just learning how to 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.200 be an effective manager. Does that all sound right? That's 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.360 all exactly right. Yeah. We work in like a tech 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.360 startup in a field where there's usually it's pretty casual 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.400 and fun, but obviously there's still lots of deadlines and 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.080 things that need to be done, and then we have 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.240 so far, really great staff, and I you know, it's 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:12.480 a very competitive field and I don't want to lose them, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.239 So I'd hate to be oblivious to something terrible in 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.760 my managing style and then lose an employee. Yeah, well, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:20.520 it's great that you're thinking about it, because so many 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.160 people don't even do that sort of reflection and then 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.200 we get lots of bad managers who people are writing about. 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.360 So before we jump into advice, tell me a little 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.400 bit about how things are going, Like, do you feel 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:34.560 like you're getting what you need from your staff and 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:36.480 just work get done the way you want it to 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.320 be done, and are you comfortable giving feedback that kind 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.080 of thing. I would say it's pretty good. Um, Like 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:46.600 the technical work is very strong. Sometimes it's hard to 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:52.200 know how to delegate exactly, how to how much responsibility 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.600 to give people was reasonable to expect in terms of 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.040 how fast someone should work. Um, for some of my staff, 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.000 they have the same skill, said it's me. So if 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.640 I kind of can bench mark like, oh, this should 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.680 take me two weeks, so maybe it will take them 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.760 similar a bit longer. But with some of my staff 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.200 are totally outside my field, it's it's really hard for 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.280 me to even assess what's reasonable or not, and I 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.320 find that hard. Yeah, it is hard. So I think 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:19.519 what might make sense is to start with a bunch 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:23.440 of general advice on managing in general, and then we 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.200 can dive into some of those more specific questions. If 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:31.160 that sounds good, that sounds great, Okay, Well let's start 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.200 with how do you even learn to be an effective 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.160 manager in the first place? And so I can't answer 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:38.760 this question without doing a plug for my book for managers, 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.720 which is called Managing to Change the World and Nonprofit 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:44.960 Manager's Guide to Getting Results. And as you can tell 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.320 from the title, it is primarily targeted to nonprofit managers, 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:51.400 but really, like of what's in there is going to 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.080 apply to managers in any sector, and it'll really walk 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.440 you through the nitty gritty of how you do some 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.240 of the stuff that we're about to talk about in 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.640 broader term. What I had found before writing it, well 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.600 co authoring it, I should say, is that a lot 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.600 of the management books that are out there are pretty theoretical, 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.520 but I think what managers often really want and need 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:13.720 is the real detail of it, Like what do I 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.719 say in this meeting and how exactly do I approach 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.240 this issue, and what does it sound like, and how 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.720 do I structure conversations about someone's performance that sort of thing. 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.800 So the book really goes in detail on this is 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.159 exactly how you do it. So it might be worth 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.720 checking out as like a reference material. That sounds great, 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:34.920 but let's talk bigger themes and you can use that 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.320 as a reference later if you want to. So I 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:39.520 think the biggest thing that you want to do as 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.320 a manager, because everything else will stem from it, is 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.640 to be really clear in your own head on what 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.880 your job is, what you're there to do as a manager. 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:51.200 And I am going to argue that your fundamental job 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.080 as a manager is to make sure that your organization 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:56.960 gets the results that it needs. There's a lot that 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:58.960 goes into that, of course. I mean there's laying out 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:02.240 clear expectations, setting the right goals, and hiring their people 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.640 and developing them and giving them good feedback, and building 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.200 a culture that supports all of those things and is 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.240 somewhere that people want to work. But ultimately, those are 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.600 all means to an end, and that end is achieving 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.159 whatever it is that you're setting out to achieve, whatever 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:19.880 the goals of the company are. And the reason I'm 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.200 stressing that is that because a ton of managers lose 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.880 sight of it. They think that their job is just 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.240 to develop people or to keep their people happy, or 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.599 on the other end of the spectrum, that they're there 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.960 to just enforce rules or monitor people. And it is 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.400 important to develop people and keep your team happy and 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:41.080 monitor work. But those things aren't ends in themselves. You're 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:44.440 doing them because they're part of achieving the results that 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.520 you want. And again I'm belaboring this because if you 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.359 lose sight of it, you will find yourself prioritizing the 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:53.320 wrong things, like you'll find yourself avoiding making a decision 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.680 that will be unpopular, or shying away from a hard 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:58.960 conversation because you don't want to make someone unhappy, and 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.320 so forth. So that's point number one. Look at everything 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.760 through the lens of how it supports you achieving whatever 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.159 it is that you want to be achieving. From there, 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:11.479 I think I'm going to run through some of the 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.400 fundamentals that you want to be thinking about and doing 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:16.640 as a manager. And honestly, each of these could be 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:18.640 a book in itself, so I'm not going to get 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:21.320 terribly in depth on any of them. Unless you jump 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.000 in and tell me that you do want to go deeper, 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:24.960 and feel free to do that with any of these. 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.680 But otherwise, this is just kind of a list to 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:29.919 get you thinking about the areas that you want to 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:33.440 be paying special attention to. There's that sort of you 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.839 don't know what you don't know kind of things, So 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:37.760 so I would say look at this as a list 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.359 of areas to make sure that you're being thoughtful about. 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.159 So the first and maybe the biggest one is being 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.160 really clear with yourself and with your team about what 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:50.080 you want them to do and what it would look 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.000 like to do it successfully. And I know that sounds 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:56.600 really obvious, but people don't always do it very effectively, 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:00.159 and if you don't, it's really easy for you and 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:01.880 the people working with you to get pulled in a 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:05.080 bunch of different directions instead of figuring out what are 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.920 the most important things for us to achieve and focusing there. So, 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.360 for the organization as a whole and for each individual 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:14.240 person who works for you, you you want to get really 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.560 clear on what would a successful year look like. If 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:19.160 it's the end of the year and we're looking back 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:21.600 on the previous twelve months, what do we want to 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.120 have achieved for it to have been a successful year. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.360 That way, by hashing that out and creating really clear 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.560 goals for that time period based on that, everyone's going 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:32.360 to be on the same page about what successful work 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:33.720 and their role looks like. And you're not going to 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.600 have people wondering, am I doing a good job? Am 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.240 I doing the things she wants me to be doing? 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.280 And you're not going to have people spending time on 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:44.680 things that ultimately are trumped by things that are more 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.680 important to you. Does that make sense? Definitely? Yeah? And 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.280 how does that? How do you balance like say an 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.280 employee where you don't really know how to do their jobs, 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.080 so you can explain what you want them to do, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.760 but not exactly how you want them to do it. Yes, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.000 So hopefully you've hired someone who has a track record 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.640 of getting those things done or getting things that are 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:07.840 very similar and done, so you have some reason to 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.920 put your trust in in their skills and their ability 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.400 to achieve those things. And then I would say talk 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.640 to them, you know, talk through I would explicitly ask 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.720 the question, what is reasonable for us to accomplish accomplish 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:21.880 this year? What I'm hoping is that we could do X, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.440 Y and Z. What do you think is that realistic? 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.360 Is that enough? Is it not ambitious enough? And have 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.480 that conversation with them, and it should be kind of 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.199 a collaborative process if you've hired the right people. If 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.480 you've hired people who don't have those skills to do it, 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.559 that's a real problem if you don't have those skills either, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:40.680 because then you can't can't train them. But I'm assuming 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:42.960 that you feel pretty confident. You said you're happy with 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:47.120 your team. Yes, yes, exactly, so yeah, I would just 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.720 have that conversation and it's it's completely okay. I mean, 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.880 I think sometimes especially when people are first managing, they 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:55.160 feel like people expect them to have all the answers. Actually, 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.080 it really enhances your credibility when you admit that you don't. 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.120 It's completely fine to sit down with someone and say, 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.200 I'm really going to be leaning on you to help 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.720 me figure this out because this is your area of expertise, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:09.679 so let's talk through this and I think what you 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.280 want to have. And this touches on on your question 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.920 earlier about like, how do you know if you're not 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:18.280 an expert in their area that their timelines are reasonable? 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:20.840 And the quality of their work is reasonable. I think 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.880 you need to have a pretty good BS detector to 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.959 some extent. If you're if you're like Spidy, sense is 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.800 going off and telling you like this just doesn't sound 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:36.559 right to me. Don't dismiss that just because they are 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:38.880 more expert than you are. I would take that as 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.600 a flag that something's going on there and you should 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.120 sit down and dig into it. Maybe the thing that's 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.400 going on is that you just have some incorrect assumptions, 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:48.960 and by talking to them you can straighten that out. 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.360 But maybe there is something more going on. I mean, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.440 one thing that I have found is that when I 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:59.119 am managing areas of work that aren't my area of expertise, 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:03.360 they're there's always small things that I do understand that, 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.440 Like I will understand like oh, that person is really 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.040 great at follow through, or they're not so great at 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.360 follow through, or the way they're explaining this to this 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:14.560 client like really doesn't make sense, and I don't think 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.240 that person is understanding it. There's like there's pieces like 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.800 that that you will be equipped to judge, and I 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.199 would put real weight on those because in my experience, 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.760 you can extrapolate pretty well the small pieces that you 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.880 are equipped to understand will usually lead you in the 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.400 right to action. Right that totally makes sense. I mean 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.360 not not entirely, of course, I don't want to overstate that, 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.160 but more often than not that will be the case. 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.360 And when you're having those conversations with people, when you're saying, 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:49.800 you know, help me figure this out. I want to 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.640 lean any for your expertise, you're going to get a 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:57.079 feel for how you know, do I trust what they're saying? 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.640 Does it make sense to me? Does it seem logically 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.200 sound owned to do it? Does their critical thinking here 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.880 seem on target? Or does it not? And that stuff 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:07.520 is all going to point you in a direction of 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.839 either Okay, yes, this person I can rely on this person. 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.040 They seem incredible, they know what they're doing, or oh, 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:15.800 it feels like there's a lot of red flags here. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.800 Absolutely if it does turn out that you're seeing red 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.400 flags and you do think maybe this person isn't doing 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:24.840 what I need them to do or they're not right 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.680 for the role, but then you might be thinking like, 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.600 but it might even really equipped to assess that. That 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:32.600 is when you come back to the goals that we 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.320 were just talking about setting if you're really clear at 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.719 the outside of the year, the six month period, or 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:40.440 whatever time period you choose. If you're really clear, you 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.000 both get aligned and you both agree, this is what 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:44.880 we're going to achieve in this time period, this is 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.559 what success would look like. You're going to have really 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.600 good data on whether or not that's actually happening, right, 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.760 and then you can kind of assess did this happen 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:55.880 and if not, why not? And then that would give 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.040 you the kind of that information exactly. It makes it 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.400 really easy to assess performance. Let's pause here for a 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.400 short break and we'll come right back and keep talking. 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:16.360 So we were just talking about clarity for expectations for 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:18.400 a big chunk of time, like a year, but you 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.920 also want to be really clear about expectations on a 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.440 smaller level too, Like if you're assigning a project, you 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.440 want to take the time to really talk through whatever 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.959 is in your head about it. It's really easy as 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.000 a manager to to delegate very quickly. You know, three sentences, 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:35.960 can you take care of this for me? Here's the deadline. 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.079 But if you don't have a longer conversation, you're I mean, 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.840 obviously not everything requires a longer conversation. But it's if 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:45.560 it's a pretty major project and you don't really talk 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.400 it through, you're setting yourself in the staff person up 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:50.280 for frustration when they put a bunch of work in 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.440 and then it comes back to you and you say, oh, 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.880 this isn't really what I was talking about. That sucks 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:56.719 for everyone. It's not a good use of people's time. 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.600 So I would say, really invest on the front end 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.360 in making sure that if you do have expectations in 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:04.719 your head about how something will go or what it 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.800 will look like when it comes back to you, that 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.960 you're very deliberate about sharing that with your staff so 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:12.400 that they're not trying to guess and they're not getting blindsided, 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.920 they're not finding out halfway through she had these expectations 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:20.640 that she didn't tell me about. Yes, absolutely, And then 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.280 you also want to apply that at another level too, 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.640 So not just long term goals, not just individual projects, 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.320 but also how people are operating in general, how you 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.719 expect them to approach their work. Like, just to give 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.040 you a random example, if you wouldn't like it if 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.480 they took more than like a day to return a 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.200 client's phone call, tell them that. Make sure they know 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:45.960 that what people tend to do is they don't make 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.520 those implicit expectations explicit, and so people don't meet those expectations, 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:52.680 and then they get really frustrated and they're wondering, like, 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.000 why is why is this person waiting days to return 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.320 a client's phone call? They should just know that they 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.760 should return it within a day. Well, maybe I mean 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:01.720 to thing in your context, maybe they should just know. 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.360 But you're setting everyone up for failure if you don't 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:06.720 just tell them. So you probably have a lot of 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:11.000 expectations in your head of like how we do things 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.760 here or how we definitely don't do things here, And 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.080 I would be very deliberate about pulling that stuff out 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.560 of your head, whatever it is, so that you can 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.200 share it with people and you don't end up you 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.480 and they don't end up frustrated. Yes, that definitely makes 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:32.200 good sense. Another thing kind of related to clear expectations 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.200 is feedback. So giving people feedback on their work is 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:38.880 really key part of your job. And that doesn't just 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:42.840 mean feedback when something goes wrong or needs to be changed. 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.880 It means kind of feedback all the time, feedback on 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.080 what's going well and what could be better, and how 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:53.120 someone could go from pretty good to really great. How 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:56.880 comfortable are you with giving feedback? Very comfortable with giving 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:03.200 positive feedback? We do lots of that, and negative I 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.080 think I find a little bit harder. Yeah, most people do. 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.480 Most people actually, I think most people start when they 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.200 start managing. There at one end of the spectrum or 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.320 the other. I think yours is the most common. Like, 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.160 it feels good to give praise, I can do that. 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.080 It's a little more awkward to give critical feedback. But 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.200 there are also people who do the reverse, who are 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.880 like super comfortable with the criticism and it doesn't care 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:30.240 the piece um. But it's really normal to feel a 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:36.600 little awkward about criticism. The easiest way to do it 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.960 is to get in the habit of giving feedback on 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.880 a really regular basis and to sort of build it 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.320 in two existing structures. So like, if you have regular 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.720 one and one meetings with your staff, have every time, 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.080 have part of those meetings be to debrief recent projects. 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.440 Like put it on the agenda. You can even call 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.800 it a debriefing because then it's not so scary like 0:15:57.880 --> 0:15:59.960 feedback is. You're just talking about how a recent produ 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.280 jicked went. But if you make it a thing where 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.000 you're doing it every time and it's built into how 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:08.040 you operate, it won't be so hard to initiate when 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:10.920 you do have some serious criticism. You know, sometimes people 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:14.200 don't do that. They give praise and it's fine, and 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.240 then one day there's actually a serious issue they have 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.000 to talk about and they're like, oh no, and it 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.560 feels really dramatic, and they're calling someone into the conference 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:24.360 room and they've got a box of tissues there and 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.920 it feels like this big, serious thing. But it doesn't 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.720 have to be that. If you build it into your 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.680 existing structure so that you're always debriefing and you're always 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.200 talking about how things are going, it's going to be 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:40.120 so much less dramatic and stressful for everyone. Yes, that 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.480 makes total sense. And do you do you think it's 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.120 a good idea to do kind of the compliment sandwich 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.080 to have always kind of used that where you say, oh, 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:48.720 you know, you're doing these things well and this one 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:52.200 thing could use work, and then oh, here's some other 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.160 things you're doing well. Or do you think that's not 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.160 the best way to go? So I am not a 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.360 huge fan of the compliment sandwhich I know some people 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.040 like it. And find it really useful. And if you 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.480 feel like it's working for you and for your staff, great, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.160 But i'll tell you why I don't love it. One 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.440 is sometimes people start to recognize what you're doing, and 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.840 so every time you praise them, they start bracing themselves 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:14.160 thinking like, oh no, what is she about to criticize? 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:16.440 So you don't want that, and you also don't want 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.080 people to feel like you're dealing with them by formula. 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.600 The thing is that sometimes it means the message can 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.800 be lost that the person either just here's the positive 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.199 stuff and doesn't think that the critical part is that 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.119 big of a deal because look, you just said all 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.560 this positive stuff about their work, or the opposite of 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.720 that happens. They just hear the criticism and they completely 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.600 forget the positive things that you said, And you don't 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.240 want that. You want to make sure that you're giving 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.520 them praise in a in a way that's really going 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.520 to register with them. So I think people turn to 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.919 the compliment sandwich because it feels a little better to 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:58.440 do it that way. Yeah, but I think you can 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.639 give criticism in a way that feels safe for the 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.800 person and that feels supportive and where it's clear that 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.560 you are not questioning their entire fit for the role. 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.800 And the part of the way to do it, something 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:13.919 that really will make it easier is if you do 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.000 normalize it, if it does become just a normal part 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:19.040 of the conversations that you're having when you check in 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.720 weekly or bi weekly or whatever it is, right and 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:23.160 not be like, oh, we need to have this big 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:27.160 talk exactly. And if you also are sure that you're 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.080 giving positive feedback and it sounds like you are, that's 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.520 going to help with that feeling that people will sometimes 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.159 get where they like you give them a piece of 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:36.879 criticism and they think their their whole job is in jeopardy. Now, 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:38.439 some people would think that no matter what you do. 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.560 But but in general, as long as you're giving more 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.480 praise than you are criticism, most people are going to 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:47.919 take that pretty well. If you're not giving more praise 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.119 than criticism, then I would look at is that a 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.320 problem with the way that you're managing or is it 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.280 a flag that maybe there's some pretty serious concerns about 0:18:56.280 --> 0:19:01.119 the person's fit for the job? Right, Okay, let's see. 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:05.080 Another big area to think about is that a key 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.760 part of your job as a manager is to build 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.280 a great team. And I say that because you don't 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.280 want to be passive about it. You want to put 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.000 real energy into hiring good people and the flip side 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.840 of that addressing it when someone really isn't working out now, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.720 doing that means being a place that good people want 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.359 to work so treating people well and being fair and 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.560 being open and compassionate while still holding a high bar 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.479 for the work that you're doing. UM when we started 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:33.520 out at the start of the show and I was like, Oh, 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.360 sometimes people think that managing is just all about supporting 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:38.960 their team. I'm not being dismissive of that. I think 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.000 supporting your team is really important. It's important for this 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:44.960 reason that it will help you attract and retain good 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:46.959