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Speaker 1: Fl media. Hey everybody, Robert here, and if you haven't

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Speaker 1: heard recently, about a month ago, my dad took very ill,

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Speaker 1: maybe more like two months ago now, and I wound

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Speaker 1: up spending almost a solid month in Texas in the

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Speaker 1: ICU with him every day and eventually hospice. The short

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Speaker 1: answer to this is that he passed and I did

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Speaker 1: not get him a lot of work done for a while.

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Speaker 1: So we are taking another rewind week next week. It'll

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Speaker 1: be new content again, new content for the foreseeable future

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Speaker 1: after this, but we're taking one more week so that

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Speaker 1: I can get back ahead on stuff. And I decided

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Speaker 1: to run this series of three episodes that we did

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Speaker 1: a couple of years back with Tom Ryman about some

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Speaker 1: of the first right wing talk show grifter types, you know,

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Speaker 1: the guys who really like set the stage for people

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Speaker 1: like Tucker Carlson. And I wanted to do that because Tom,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately is also dealing with a health scare for somebody

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Speaker 1: close to him. His wife, Marina, who's also a wonderful person,

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Speaker 1: a longtime friend of mine, has a high risk pregnancy

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Speaker 1: and is going to be in the hospital for probably

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Speaker 1: the foreseeable future until she has the kid. She got

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Speaker 1: seven months in right now, so it's a sketchy situation

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Speaker 1: for them unfortunately, and they are in need of some

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Speaker 1: money to help cover their medical bills. So if you

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Speaker 1: want to help out these two great people, and if

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Speaker 1: you don't know Tom, check out Gamefully Unemployed. That's his

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Speaker 1: podcast network. They do a lot of great TV show

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Speaker 1: movie reviews. They have a great show about the X

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Speaker 1: Files about how Crazy Fox Molder is where they go

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Speaker 1: through every episode. It's one of my favorite things to

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Speaker 1: listen to. But if you want to help them out,

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Speaker 1: go to support Marina's High Risk pregnancy journey on go

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Speaker 1: fund Me. You can just google go fund me, support

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Speaker 1: Marina's High Risk Pregnancy Journey and donate there. So thank

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Speaker 1: you all very much. We will be back with new

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Speaker 1: stuff next week. But we've got three great rewinds for

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Speaker 1: you this week. If you haven't listened to them before,

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Speaker 1: you will enjoy them. If you have, why not listen

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Speaker 1: to In What Desperately Horny My Saddam Hussein's Best Friend,

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Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans hosted Behind the Bastards, the only podcast

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Speaker 1: whose host owns two kittens named Saddam Hussein and Saddam

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Speaker 1: Hussein's best friend and due to a severe veterinarian shortage

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Speaker 1: in northern Oregon, still can't get them spaded and nuted

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Speaker 1: for another nine days. And Saddam Hussein's best friend is

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Speaker 1: in heat and desperately trying to fuck her brother.

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Speaker 2: This has been an update for all.

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Speaker 1: That didn't you have to like maybe she didn't disclose

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Speaker 1: that information. Now you're she has been disclosing that she

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Speaker 1: wants to fuck to literally every living creature that gets

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Speaker 1: near her.

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Speaker 3: If she had a microphone, she'd be saying the same thing.

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Speaker 3: She will not stop presenting, and she did not. It

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Speaker 3: is it has been a problem. We are keeping them

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Speaker 3: away because I do not want incest kittens. Although they

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Speaker 3: may have been incestc there's no way to know in sittons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like Robert, who is a lot of other voice

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Speaker 2: on this podcast that people are here?

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Speaker 1: Oh well, the only person I would ever have on

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Speaker 1: to talk about kitten incest my friend Tom Ryman.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hey, Hi.

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Speaker 3: What's up. No, I'm glad you got me on to

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Speaker 3: talk about these cats.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be a three hour episode about

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Speaker 1: my cat's sex life. Tom, you are the co founder

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Speaker 1: of Gamefully Unemployed, one of my favorite podcast networks hosts.

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Speaker 1: One of my most listened to shows, Fox Molder is

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Speaker 1: a Maniac, which is a beautiful breakdown of a Fox

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Speaker 1: Molder and what a goddamn Lunatiki is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Tom, it's really fascinating when you watch the show

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Speaker 3: with that context.

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Speaker 2: It changes the show. It truly does.

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Speaker 1: You guys do a lot of great stuff, great movie reviews,

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Speaker 1: and oh thanks, role playing games. People can find you

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Speaker 1: gamefully unemployed on Patreon. Tom, you also are what an

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Speaker 1: editor at Collider? Forget what a senior editor of features

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Speaker 1: a Collider? And you and I worked together for all

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Speaker 1: of my twenties more or less at a little website

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Speaker 1: called Cracked that pivoted to video and uh and went

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Speaker 1: the way of the Dodo.

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Speaker 3: We got, we got, we got dragged to hell by

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Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah. I didn't come across a beautiful tweet

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Speaker 3: earlier today that you'll appreciate.

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Speaker 2: Tom.

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Speaker 3: Oh good, Yeah, I can't wait to hear it. Great radio,

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Speaker 3: great radio. Yeah, I look for something and Neil dash

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Speaker 3: Horse broke its legs, so we had to take it

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Speaker 3: out back and help it pivot to video.

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Speaker 2: Oh Tom, how are you doing today?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing okay, I'm doing pretty good. Thanks. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 3: how about how about you? How about yourself?

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Speaker 1: Well, Tom, I'm thinking about the fact that there is

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Speaker 1: a vast, incredibly well financed right wing media operation that

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Speaker 1: is seemingly dedicated to pushing a violent civil conflict that

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Speaker 1: leads to a death toll that's truly astronomical in this nation.

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Speaker 2: Do you think about that a lot?

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Speaker 3: So good? Right, So you're doing good, doing great? Uh, yeah, no,

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Speaker 3: I've tried to think about it less. But in the

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Speaker 3: past few months. Just yeah, I was trying to take

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Speaker 3: a break, but I'm getting plugged back into it.

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Speaker 2: You sure are, And it's yeah, god, damn it.

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Speaker 3: It's just it's just it doesn't seem like anything's gotten

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Speaker 3: any better. It sure hasn't. It's fucking relentless. And there's

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Speaker 3: this the election. We're like, oh, thank god, and then nope,

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Speaker 3: that that didn't go away.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it turns out that you can't. You can't

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Speaker 1: vote these kind of problems away. And today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about where some of these problems started. Specifically,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the men who made right

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Speaker 1: wing media, and particularly like right wing talk media. So

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Speaker 1: today you've got guys like Stephen Crowder, uh Be Shapiro obviously,

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Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson being the big, the big Mamma Jammy. You

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Speaker 1: had people like Rush Limball, like.

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Speaker 3: All of all three of those people, all four of

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Speaker 3: those people you just name got picked dead last for

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Speaker 3: Kickball for very different reasons. Yeah, they did, and they

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Speaker 3: made it the entire world's problem.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So all of these folks, you know, some of

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Speaker 1: the all they all do slightly different variations of the

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Speaker 1: same thing. And they're not all you know, Rush is

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Speaker 1: the only one who's like really a talk radio host,

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Speaker 1: but they all have you know, podcasts and YouTube. They

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Speaker 1: all do the modern equivalent of talk radio and and

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Speaker 1: of like, yeah, we're gonna talk about basically the the

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Speaker 1: people who invented the media space that these guys all

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Speaker 1: live in. Now, these are the very first right wing

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Speaker 1: media personalities in a big way. So these are these

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Speaker 1: are the people who prepared the soil for all of

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Speaker 1: the different, you know, kind of quasi fascist grifters we

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Speaker 1: have today. And they are they're not all bastards in

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Speaker 1: the traditional sense. They're not all people who, on their own,

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Speaker 1: if you didn't consider where everything went, would have qualified

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Speaker 1: as bastards. They're all, I think, unpleasant people, But I

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Speaker 1: think what's interesting is how they how they start off

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Speaker 1: and kind of where they end, Like the kind of

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Speaker 1: people who inhabit this space at the beginning and the

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Speaker 1: kind of people who inhabit it now. So this is

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Speaker 1: gonna be a fun episode time. You're gonna listen to

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Speaker 1: a lot of clips that you're just really gonna dislike.

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Speaker 3: Oh good, ah, yeah, so excited, so pumped. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 3: gonna be so mad soon. Yeah wait, you really are so.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that inspired this was coming across

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Speaker 1: the fact that Tucker Carlson very recently alleged that the

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Speaker 1: purpose of vaccine requirements in the military was to quote

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Speaker 1: identify the sincere Christians in the ranks, the freethinkers, the

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Speaker 1: men with height, testosterone levels, and anybody else who doesn't

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Speaker 1: love Joe Biden and make them leave immediately. Fuck is

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Speaker 1: he talking about he's getting into high TI just usterns low.

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Speaker 1: If you're getting facts, the soy boys, shit, not choking

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Speaker 1: on your own rotting lungs is soy.

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Speaker 3: It's it's become I mean it was, it's always been

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Speaker 3: the case, but like in the past year or two. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's really become obvious that they just let him go

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Speaker 3: on and say what happened?

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Speaker 2: He just says it's things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'm starting with Tucker because he's he's just

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Speaker 3: off the fucking rails completely. And this is the end

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Speaker 3: root of the journey that we're going to trace the

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Speaker 3: start of today. And the thing that Tucker has been

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Speaker 3: saying that most concerns me is he started sharing Great

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Speaker 3: Replacement style conspiracy theists which are alleging that Democrats plan

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Speaker 3: to quote change the population of this country in order

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Speaker 3: to maintain power. This is functionally the same argument Brenton Tarrant,

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Speaker 3: the christ shooter, made in the manifesto he wrote before

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Speaker 3: shooting fifty Muslim worshippers to death. His manifest was titled

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Speaker 3: The Great Replacements. The same argument that the yeah, I'm trying,

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Speaker 3: I'm trying. I'm trying to remember my behind the Bastards

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Speaker 3: extended universe that all comes from the Turner Diaries, right, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean doesn't come for the Turner Diaries was like a

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Speaker 1: big definitely was pushing that. But this goes back a

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Speaker 1: while for I mean, you could even draw a line

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Speaker 1: to like the original Nazis and kind of some of

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Speaker 1: the shit Hitler was saying about Airyan blood getting watered

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Speaker 1: down from inner breeding in one for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a big, big white nationalist talking point.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that this good went from great replacement

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Speaker 1: went from like fringe Nazi murderer manifesto in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: to Tucker Carlson talking to three million people on a

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Speaker 1: major news network in twenty twenty one, shows like how

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Speaker 1: fast things go now and how how dangerous this all is.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's important to start the stakes because

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Speaker 1: it doesn't begin that way. The guys who start this

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Speaker 1: kind of right wing media space.

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Speaker 2: Are in.

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Speaker 1: The first guy we're going to talk to is in

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Speaker 1: a lot always kind of pleasant, at least compared to

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Speaker 1: what came after. I don't think he's somebody would have

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Speaker 1: gotten along with.

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Speaker 3: But it's don't it's weird. It's weird. We'll see how

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Speaker 3: you think. Okay, Yeah, And where we discussed this is

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Speaker 3: probably going to be.

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Speaker 1: These episodes me a nice companion to our two parter

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Speaker 1: on Rush Limbaugh with mister Paul F. Tompkins. So you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're looking for a good four episodes

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Speaker 1: spree to go together listen to these two and then

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Speaker 1: listen to those. Well you're a sweet having a very

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Speaker 1: long shit or on a road trip. So first guy

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Speaker 1: we're talking about tom is Joe Pine Pya in the

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Speaker 1: Joe Pine was born in Chester, Pennsylvania on December twenty second,

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty four.

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Speaker 3: His dad's problem. It's December twenty second and nineteen twenty four. Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 3: the US. Yeah, get it, get it out of there.

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Speaker 3: We don't need that state. It's like you look at that,

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Speaker 3: You look at those those three pieces of information, like

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Speaker 3: this is like a fifty to fifty shot. This guy's

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Speaker 3: gonna be real piece of Pennsylvania in the twenties. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I December baby.

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Speaker 2: Fuck that.

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Speaker 1: His dad was a brickmaker and his mom was a mom,

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Speaker 1: which was pretty much the only job most women could

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Speaker 1: expect to work at that point in time and place.

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Speaker 1: When Joe was little, his family moved to Atlantic City,

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Speaker 1: which is like Las Vegas, but less fun and much

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Speaker 1: sadder because it's on the East coast. Here's a good

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Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen song about that. He had a difficult childhood.

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Speaker 1: Joe had a pronounced stutter, and kids back then were

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Speaker 1: even shitty about such things than they are today. He

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Speaker 1: was bullied relentlessly. When Joe was eleven, he lost his

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Speaker 1: younger brother to an auto accident, which was not uncommon

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Speaker 1: in those days because cars didn't crumple and seat belts

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Speaker 1: were but a fever dream in Ralph Nader's eye. By

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Speaker 1: the time Joe was a teenager, his family left Atlantic City,

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Speaker 1: which is always a good decision, and moved back to Chester,

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Speaker 1: which is a more questionable decision. It's all they knew.

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Speaker 1: It's all they knew.

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Speaker 3: We're going to pile the family into our giant, unstoppable

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Speaker 3: seat beltless car and drive back to Chester.

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Speaker 1: He went to high school, and he joined the Marines

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty two, which was a popular decision at

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Speaker 1: the time. He joined as early as he possibly Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for whatever reason, a lot of guys in the

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Speaker 3: military in nineteen forty two must have been good ads.

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Speaker 2: Something's about to happen.

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Speaker 1: He joined as the early, like the first day he

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Speaker 1: possibly could, and obviously the US had decided to enter

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Speaker 1: World War Two at this point. He was deployed against

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Speaker 1: the Empire of Japan, and he fought in some of

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Speaker 1: the war's worst battles across the South Pacific. Joe survived

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Speaker 1: the Battle of Okinawa, which is one of the like, like,

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Speaker 1: one of the worst fights you could possibly have been

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Speaker 1: in that war, real bad battle Okinawa. During that battle,

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Speaker 1: a Japanese plane bombed the forward base he was stationed on,

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Speaker 1: seriously injuring his knee. He returned home scarred and seasoned

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Speaker 1: by heavy combat. Joe had won three Bronze Stars for

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Speaker 1: valor in battle and a purple Heart. So he definitely

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Speaker 1: saw some shit. This is not one of like the

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Speaker 1: draft dodgy right wing.

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Speaker 3: Guys, right Ben Shapiro writing war fan fiction, like he

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Speaker 3: win a war and got bombs dropped on his leg.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he saw some of the worst shit you could

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Speaker 1: have seen in that particular conflict. So he returns home

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Speaker 1: real fucked up, probably with a head full of PTSD,

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Speaker 1: But they didn't know PTSD was that they. I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: he just drank washed it down with cigarettes.

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Speaker 3: Real headful of horny cats.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when he got home, he didn't know precisely what

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Speaker 1: he wanted to do with his life, but he was

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Speaker 1: certain that it involved putting himself in front of people

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Speaker 1: and entertaining them. In order to do that, he felt

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Speaker 1: he would need to deal with his speech impediment first

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Speaker 1: using his.

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Speaker 2: What led him to that decision. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I relentlessly bullied, went to war, got bombed, his dead

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Speaker 3: brother comes back. He's like, I'm going to be an entertainer.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be an entertainer. I'm gonna be a.

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Speaker 3: Where does that impulse come from?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we just don't know enough about his early life

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Speaker 1: to know, like what the fuck was going on. Maybe

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Speaker 1: he just wanted to show people my speech impediment doesn't

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Speaker 1: to find me. I don't know. Sure I beat the

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Speaker 1: Japanese I can beat stuttering. So, using his GI bill,

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Speaker 1: Joe enrolled in a drama school. He forced himself through

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Speaker 1: agonizing hours of live performances in front of his classmates

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Speaker 1: to overcome his stutter. He locked himself away in his

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Speaker 1: room and would perform hours and hours of speech drills

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Speaker 1: every day, and eventually he did overcome his speech impediment.

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Speaker 1: Once he graduated, Joe became a taxi driver in Chester.

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Speaker 1: He continued to work on his speech while he was

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Speaker 1: driving people around. Eventually, he decided he'd come far enough

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Speaker 1: and he started a career as a broadcaster.

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Speaker 3: By this way the Way, the way you phrased that

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Speaker 3: made it sound like he was doing like his speeches

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Speaker 3: to his passengers, I think.

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Speaker 1: None, give me some notes. I got a tight five.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna run it by you. There's no seatbelt better last.

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Speaker 2: You are really dependent upon me.

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Speaker 1: So he does this, and yeah, he decides he's finished

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Speaker 1: by like late nineteen forty six, now again nineteen forties.

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Speaker 1: Radio is king. TV's coming around, but that's still not

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Speaker 1: the number one way people get entertained. You're really radio

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Speaker 1: is the top of the top of the world, and

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Speaker 1: they assume it will be forever. He was able to

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Speaker 1: convince a station manager in Lumberton, North Carolina, to give

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Speaker 1: him a job on WTSB. The pay was twenty five

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Speaker 1: dollars a week, which was not good money even back then,

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Speaker 1: and he failed to stand out enough that he felt

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Speaker 1: he had any hope of advancement. So after a year

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Speaker 1: he returned home dejected, but Joe kept pushing until he

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Speaker 1: got another job at WPWA in Brookhaven, Pennsylvania. He got

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Speaker 1: into a vicious argument with his boss while still new

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Speaker 1: on the job and was quickly fired. Next he moved

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Speaker 1: to wilm of Wilmington, Delaware, where he was also quickly fired.

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Speaker 1: Yet you get the feeling he was not easy to

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Speaker 1: work with at this point. Thankfully email didn't exist, so

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Speaker 1: these people couldn't tell each other about Joe. He moved

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Speaker 1: back to Chester after this, and then the Kenosha next

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Speaker 1: where he got a job with a new network called

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Speaker 1: w I l P. His job in all of these

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Speaker 1: places was very straightforward, introduce and play records with a

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Speaker 1: minimum of fanfare. He was not being hired to be

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Speaker 1: a personality. He was just put the music on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was a big part of it. He would riff

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Speaker 1: a lot. He got in trouble in Kenosha, and I

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Speaker 1: think he'd gotten in trouble before. He would riff on

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Speaker 1: politics and current events, which was not what you were

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Speaker 1: supposed to do at the time. So his bosses are

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Speaker 1: like nobody, Nobody. People are tuning in to hear I

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Speaker 1: don't know what the big music is that the big bopper.

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Speaker 2: Nobody wants you.

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Speaker 3: Nobody gives a shit about what you have to say

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Speaker 3: to Yeah, put on Shan Telly lace and shut your

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Speaker 3: fucking mouth. Smoke a cigarette.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The kind of riffing that he thought was the future

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Speaker 1: of radio was simply not done at the time, commenters

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Speaker 1: were part of the news department and jockeys were not.

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Speaker 1: Disc Jockeys were there to entertain, and he'd been hired

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Speaker 1: as a disc jockey. So if you were going to

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Speaker 1: be a commentator, if you were talking about the news,

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Speaker 1: you didn't like give your opinion. You tried to just

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Speaker 1: kind of like read, you know, like the ap wire. Basically, WLP,

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Speaker 1: though took call ins. Listeners could dial in and request songs,

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Speaker 1: but Joe started insisting on asking his listeners what they

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Speaker 1: thought about the political issues of the day, which was

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Speaker 1: the first time anyone had ever really done that on radio,

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Speaker 1: like take callins, and he kind of forced the issue

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Speaker 1: of making them political. One WLP employee at the time

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Speaker 1: recalled he wanted to chat with them, but in those

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Speaker 1: days there was no way to put a phone line

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Speaker 1: on the air. Joe would say uh huh and hmm

340
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Speaker 1: and then tell the call the listeners what the callers said.

341
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Speaker 1: So this is like this is a very first talk radio.

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Speaker 1: He's just on the phone with them, be like mmmm,

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Speaker 1: all right, so here's what he said.

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Speaker 3: Let me tell you what Dennis from Yeah and you're

345
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Speaker 3: like listening to almost dead air while he's listening to

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Speaker 3: the versus on the phone.

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Speaker 1: But this is literally the birth of talk radio. This

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Speaker 1: is the first time anybody does this Joe Pine, and

349
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Speaker 1: he moves along eventually, and I'm going to explain that process.

350
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Speaker 1: I'm going to read a quote from a write up

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Speaker 1: in Smithsonian Magazine. One caller objected to the young DJ's

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Speaker 1: pro union opinions. Do you know anything, sir, about the

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Speaker 1: history of labor management relations, Pine asked the man. After

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Speaker 1: a moment of dead air, he continued, no, you keep

355
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Speaker 1: your voice down. Pine was an expert interrupter, but this

356
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,399
Speaker 1: caller barely paused for breath listening. Pine had an idea.

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Speaker 1: According to Ragani, who worked there, he held the phone

358
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Speaker 1: receiver to his microphone. Now the caller was life on

359
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 1: the air and call in radio was born. So that's

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine in Kenosha, Joe Pine invins call in

361
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Speaker 1: radio by literally holding a phone up to the mic.

362
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Speaker 3: In fairness, some random dude calling in to request Frankie

363
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,359
Speaker 3: Valley who had very strong opinions about labor unions. This

364
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Speaker 3: who actually created call radio.

365
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Speaker 2: This guy's such an asshole, I gotta put him on.

366
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Speaker 3: He was so pissed about it. That's a fair point.

367
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Speaker 3: You got to hear, what a piece of shit this

368
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Speaker 3: guy is. Let me invent a new discipline that will

369
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Speaker 3: later ratchet the country towards violence. Yeah, he was born

370
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Speaker 3: in stupid anger and it will kill us all with

371
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Speaker 3: stupid anger to stupid anger, it will return.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Perfect, What a beautiful way for that to get started. Honestly. Yeah,

374
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Speaker 3: And I love because this guy gives birth to right

375
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Speaker 3: wing radio. But he the start of talk radio is

376
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Speaker 3: him trying to defend like the right to unionize, which

377
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Speaker 3: is I was I was not expecting that to be

378
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Speaker 3: the issue when you said it. I was like, really

379
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 3: that you could be pretty conservative and pro union in

380
00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,040
Speaker 3: those because it wasn't. It was more racist back then,

381
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,639
Speaker 3: obviously everything was, but politics in some ways was less dumb.

382
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:47,800
Speaker 2: It wasn't.

383
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Speaker 1: It hadn't gotten to the point where it is with

384
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Speaker 1: like the right wing left wing conservatism is such a

385
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 1: part of my like identity that like I have this

386
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 1: vested interest in like demonizing anything, like you did have

387
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 1: a lot of u. I mean, like one of the

388
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,920
Speaker 1: union strongholds in the US for a long time was

389
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Speaker 1: West fucking Virginia. You know, like people like fought to

390
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 1: the death for unions at West Virginia with rifles and

391
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Speaker 1: now it's Joe Mansion Country, So well sorry West Virginia.

392
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Speaker 1: But like, yeah, the things were different than poetically, is

393
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,879
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. And yeah, so Joe was fired. I

394
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,400
Speaker 1: think this kind of is part of what got him

395
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Speaker 1: fired because his boss at the station was like, you're

396
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 1: supposed to be playing songs, Joe, what the fuck are

397
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,640
Speaker 1: you doing holding the phone out to the goddamn microphone.

398
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 3: Put on the goddamn wreck, Put on the fucking twist. Yeah,

399
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 3: do you want to get a Rush Limbaugh, Because that's

400
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 3: how you get a Limbaugh. This is how we get

401
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,159
Speaker 3: a Limba. Put the phone down, Put on the goddamn music.

402
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 3: I don't want to listen to Stephen Crowder's heart surgery

403
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 3: problems in twenty five years or forty five years, how

404
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 3: many years, one hundred years, sixty years, whatever, too many years, Tom,

405
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 3: five hundred years, yeah, years ago. Nobody from even alive anymore.

406
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Speaker 2: No, no, God, thank God.

407
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 3: So, despite Yeah, inventing call in radio, Joe's boss did

408
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 3: not appreciate him.

409
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 1: He wanted someone to read ads and introduce songs. The

410
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: two fought constantly at one point, Joe demanded a raise,

411
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 1: which led to a fight. Another w l i P

412
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 1: host later recalled stumbling in on the melee Joe was yelling.

413
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 1: She recalled, he had one hand on our boss's lapel.

414
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: He picked up a typewriter and threw it against the wall.

415
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 3: Oh fuck, So that gives you a little bit of

416
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 3: an idea of like why this guy keeps having problems

417
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: with his coworkers. Yeah, he almost said that was danger.

418
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,200
Speaker 3: He almost scored some points of me there though, because

419
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 3: you were like, he picked up a type roun.

420
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Speaker 2: I'm like, here we go, here we go against the wall,

421
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: hit him in the face.

422
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:51,239
Speaker 3: All right, Well, fair compromise, all right again, So he

423
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 3: gets fired again, and he continues to move around frequently,

424
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 3: you know, while he's going from radio station to radio station.

425
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: He marries a beauty queen. He divorces here a year

426
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: later because she gets sick of him. While he's working

427
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: at WYLM, he starts a show called It's Your Nickel,

428
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 1: so named because the nickel was the standard cost for

429
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 1: a call on a payphone and this was the first, yeah,

430
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: proper radio talk show, It's your Nickel. So he does

431
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: get a job doing the thing that he invented, and

432
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: that's that became a phrase like it's your dime or

433
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: it's your nickel, or it's your dollar.

434
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: It's like exactly.

435
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I don't know if that's the He may

436
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:25,880
Speaker 3: have just been using that phrase because it was already

437
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 3: like what people said.

438
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean he may have invented it. I

439
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: have not done that research. Tom someone at home.

440
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, something something that sticks out to me about

441
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 3: old Joe Pine is that he has trouble forming a

442
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 3: lasting relationships.

443
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was from job the job.

444
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 3: Mary's a woman divorces her late like he seems like

445
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 3: he might be impossible to be around.

446
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: It does, and it also, again, this is one of

447
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 1: those black box of history things. I do kind of

448
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,959
Speaker 1: wonder how much of this is a PTSD, because that

449
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: can make it real hard to get along with people

450
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: and hard to regulate your emotions and more likely to

451
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: throw a typewriter.

452
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 3: He did get bombed in one of the most notorious

453
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 3: battles of World War two, so yeah, yeah.

454
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 1: Who knows.

455
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: It's one of those things.

456
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: It's like lead exposure, which I'm sure Joe Pine was

457
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: also exposed to a tremendous amount of lead like you

458
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: wonder how much of an impact did this have on

459
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: like the way people were back then.

460
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 3: You wonder how many people were just walking around poisoned

461
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 3: and crazy like seventy years ago, just because that's the

462
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 3: way it was.

463
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of like pretty strong

464
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: evidence that at least the lead exposure may have been

465
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: part of why there was so much more violence back

466
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 1: you know, even just like twenty something years ago, because

467
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: everybody was inhaling lead and eating lead off the walls.

468
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: And I do want some delicious lead, Tom. Yeah, there's

469
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: nothing that goes with like a nice bree. Like you

470
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: get a lead chip and you just dip it in

471
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: a bree. That's a good Yeah, nice meat mix, a

472
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: sweet and savory.

473
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 2: It's like a lead flight.

474
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a lead flight, Like a flight of lead.

475
00:23:58,520 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start a leadstirant.

476
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 3: I think you should. Yeah, lead in every food. Yeah,

477
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 3: the lead bar, get the lead out. We'll call it

478
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 3: a lead chicken in every pot. Now, Tom, you know

479
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: who else will expose you to tremendous amounts of lead?

480
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,959
Speaker 3: M the X Men Colossus. That that is probably accurate.

481
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 3: I don't know as much about x Men as you

482
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 3: but but the products and services that support this podcast certainly.

483
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: Will expose you to lead. That is the only guarantee

484
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: we make about our sponsors, every one of them filled

485
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: with lead.

486
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 3: Yep, it's a powerful guarantee.

487
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 2: We're back.

488
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: And I wanted to start this by letting my letting

489
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: my audience know that that our guest today, Tom Ryman,

490
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: has a bit of a superpower, which is and everyone

491
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: who knows you knows this, Tom, which is that.

492
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 3: When you when you whenever you mention a movie and

493
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 3: you will talk about, like you know that guy who

494
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 3: was in the background and that in that scene in

495
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 3: American Beauty, and you'll be like, oh, yeah, it's such

496
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 3: and such, and this is the other films they were in.

497
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: Know anybody who can do that the way that you.

498
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 3: Can, it's.

499
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 5: You.

500
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought you were going to tell everybody about

501
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 3: my optic blasts. So I'm glad.

502
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: No, I'm glad I didn't secret keeping that a secret

503
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: for when I rob a bank.

504
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 2: No, I've been.

505
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 3: I've been. I don't know. I just I do that

506
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 3: like I keep it encyclopedic record of dates and like

507
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: people in movies and stuff. I don't know, it's it's uh,

508
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: I'm probably somewhere on the spectrum. But it's just a

509
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 3: thing I do. I don't know.

510
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: It's almost a super like it is kind of a superpower,

511
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: like it's it's really it's really fun. And it made

512
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: like when we when we were all I mean, I

513
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: lived together with like half of the people we worked

514
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: with at Cracked, and you were always over and just

515
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: the movie conversations with you and Dave were always a

516
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of fun.

517
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 3: I listened to your podcasts. Oh thanks, we lived in

518
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 3: your room, remember, Oh yeah, you did in the mountains,

519
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 3: lived in your room. I was I was doing redacted

520
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 3: things in the mountains and and mostly not home at

521
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 3: that point in time, I'd forgotten about that. Yeah, yeah,

522
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: Oh the days of our lives like sand through the hourglass,

523
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: tom So, like lead through the hour glass, like lead

524
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 3: through the hour glass. So Joe Pine gets his first

525
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 3: proper radio talk show, It's Your Nickel on w I

526
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 3: l M. And again he's out of there, he's in there.

527
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 3: I think this is like his second time working for them,

528
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 3: And this article from the broadcaster's desktop resource makes it

529
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: clear what kind of show Joe ran. The very first

530
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 3: radio talk show quote in his nightly introduction, he said,

531
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 3: the mic is open. My name's Joe Pine. I guess

532
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 3: you know yours the program. This program is dedicated to

533
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: the free exchange of ideas and to differences of opinion.

534
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 3: I don't propose to have all the answers, but I

535
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 3: do promise to talk about the things that interest you.

536
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: So that's a nice little.

537
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 3: There's that free exchange of ideas craz He did, I think.

538
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: Kind of mean it as opposed to the people who

539
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: say it today. I think they're aping him. But I'll

540
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: play you some clips from his he did. He was, yeah,

541
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: it's interesting now. The show did often become a shout fest,

542
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: with Pine definitely in control. No topic was sacred, from

543
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: sex to religion to politics, but when he felt a

544
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: listener had gone on for too long and was making

545
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: no sense, he would make a rude remark, like you're

546
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: sick and hang up on the post person.

547
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 2: Enduring.

548
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: Pine's abusive records the challenge to the audience, many of

549
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: whom tried to debate him before he hung up on them.

550
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: His views tended to be quite conservative most of the time,

551
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: and Pine seemed to dare his listeners to disagree with him.

552
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,400
Speaker 1: His style of arguing included using very derogatory terms. Known

553
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: for being adept with words, his arsenal of insults and

554
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 1: put downs became the stuff of legends. Among his best

555
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: known were if your brains were dynamite, you couldn't blow

556
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: your nose. There was also go gargle with razor blades

557
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: and take your teeth out, put him in backwards, and

558
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: bite your throat Jesus Christ. At least the man's creative.

559
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: That third one's pretty nice. Yeah, that's good. I'd heard

560
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: the other two. I'm like, yeah, those are old standards.

561
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: And this turn your teeth around him like ooh yeah.

562
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: So when this is in nineteen fifty one two, while

563
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: he's in the middle of changing Radio Forever, his old

564
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 1: war injury flares up badly enough that surgeons have to

565
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: amputate his left leg from the mid downhit. So he's

566
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: back in the studio with a prosthetic limb soon after,

567
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: and while the fake leg was obvious to everyone who

568
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: saw him, he never meant it.

569
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 2: Did get mentioned on air. We'll talk about that.

570
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 1: In a bit, but he refused to mention it on air.

571
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: Judging by his pro union views, Joe is at least

572
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 1: at one point at least more of a moderate than

573
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: he became. But the longer he's on doing talk radio,

574
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: he pulls further and further to the right. In nineteen

575
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: fifty three, he celebrated on air when the US electrocuted

576
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, saying, we finally incinerated those comies.

577
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: I hope it was slow and painful.

578
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 5: Good.

579
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: Uh, that's interesting that.

580
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 3: The longer I mean, I'm sure you're going to make

581
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: this connection, But the longer he's on the air, the

582
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 3: more conservative he pulls.

583
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 5: That.

584
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: I wonder could that be because having bad faith arguments

585
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: to generate we call them rage clicks now, but it's

586
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: just to stoke controversy by needling people and by playing

587
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 3: the devil's advocate just to get people heeded, and arguing

588
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 3: to fuel the ratings for his own show.

589
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really don't know. I'm sure that was an

590
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: element of it, because clearly he's going after controversy, he's

591
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: going after rage kicks. But also we'll talk about it.

592
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 1: He was not always the guy you would expect. That's yeah,

593
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: So we're building that. So Joe had a keen understanding

594
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: of how to communicate with the lowest common denominator in

595
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: US politics. He told reporters, quite without shame, that radio

596
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: was geared towards the mentality of thirteen year old kids,

597
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: and that most Americans were politically apathetic and easy to

598
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: persuade of just about anything. He claimed that he used

599
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: shocking language and would make extreme allegations in order to

600
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: get people to think. He told the La Times that

601
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: while his critics called him a hate monger, all he

602
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: really did was encourage stimulating dialogue. You see, he knows

603
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: what he's doing. I think that's a big part of

604
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: like why he gets more right wing in his because

605
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: it's easier to kind of, like again, speak to the

606
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: mentality of thirteen year old kids. If you're just like

607
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: making these kind of reactionary arguments.

608
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 3: He wants to piss people off so that they react

609
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 3: and he gets a show out of it.

610
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a part of it. That's not

611
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: all of it, because he is When there were times

612
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: when he would be challenged, it kind of depended on

613
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: how it was. If he found someone interesting, even if

614
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: they were coming in from a very different perspective, he

615
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: would let them talk and sometimes very respectfully so he

616
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: was not, well, he's the start and he's doing a

617
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: lot of unpleasant stuff. He's also not He's unequivocally a

618
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: better person than Ben Shapiro, is what I'm saying, right, Like,

619
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: his goal in any given conversation wasn't just to own them.

620
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: He would actually listen to people sometimes who were bringing

621
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: up some pretty radical stuff.

622
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:43,239
Speaker 2: We'll get to that.

623
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: Nineteen fifty seven, a little over after a little over

624
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: six years on air, Joe left Wylm. This time it

625
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: was his own choice. He was famoused at least locally,

626
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: and his salary was forty two thousand dollars a year,

627
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: which is almost ten times the average salary for a

628
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: it's about four hundred grand a year, and like modern

629
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: dollars like, he was making real good money. This time,

630
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: Joe left because his dreams had overgrown a very comfortable

631
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: working condition. He traveled to Riverside, California, and he got

632
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: a job at a local radio station that quickly led

633
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: to a TV job at KTLA in Los Angeles. He

634
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: would later claim that his first TV show, which was

635
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: essentially a filmed version of It's Your Nickel, had been

636
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: a huge success, but the show lasted less than a

637
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: year and I found no clips of it anywhere.

638
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 2: Joe moves back.

639
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'd be surprised if there's any footage that

640
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 3: still exists.

641
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: There is a we have some clips of his the

642
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: show that Come Next, Came Next, but it's because there's

643
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: like a grassroots archival effort to like digitize all of

644
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: the old tape master tapes. So after his first year

645
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: in la Joe moves back across the country to Chester

646
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: where he works for a Philadelphia TV station for a

647
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: first time for a short time, and then he goes

648
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: back to wilm for a little while. He licks his wombs,

649
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: he wounds. He seemed to know that a show like his,

650
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: a political talk show where people could scream about pauloitics

651
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: to a mass audience, was the wave of the future

652
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: and was going to be huge on television, but the

653
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: world wasn't ready quite yet. For a few years, Joe

654
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: continued to broadcast, but in the early nineteen sixties he

655
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: decided the time was finally right and he moved back

656
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: to LA where he got a job at KABC. And

657
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to quote from the broadcaster's desktop resource again.

658
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: Once again, he polarized the audience, with some listeners and

659
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: guests complaining he was too caustic, and others saying his

660
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: candor was refreshing. But as in Wilmington, he had people

661
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: talking about him and his show From KABC, he went

662
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: over to KLAC and set nineteen sixty five, doing the

663
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 1: nine pm to midnight shift. Never wont to avoid controversial guests.

664
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: He put Nazis and members of the Ku Klux Klan

665
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: on the air displeasure Yeah, oh yeah, dope, earning the

666
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: displeasure of the American Jewish Committee and a warning from

667
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: the FCC. He also had guests who believe it in eugenics,

668
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: guests who were racists, guests with strange theories about past

669
00:32:55,320 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: lives or UFOs, and the arguments continued. Controversy sold Joe's

670
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: salary balloon to two hundred thousand dollars a year, which

671
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: is nearly two million a year by modern standards. Jesus NBC. Yeah,

672
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: he's making it back. I mean this is soon that

673
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: he's giving people like what Tucker Carlson and stuff. Now,

674
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: I will be fair when he has Nazis and KKK

675
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: members on and so that he can scream at them

676
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: like yeah, well it's still like, it's still there's it's

677
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: still problematic, but it's not as problematic as it is today,

678
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: where you have people affiliated with similar organizations were talking

679
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: about how, yeah, he.

680
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: Was getting outrage clicks. But at least the the understanding

681
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 3: was people are going to hate these yead At least

682
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 3: that was like the understanding. Yeah, at least that was

683
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: the fucking understanding. Yeah.

684
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: Again, you can still argue, and I think it is

685
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: pretty irresponsible to do that, but at least the understanding

686
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: was like, fuck these guys, let's let's yell at them.

687
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: It's here, let's not let's hear them out. Yeah.

688
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: NBC Radio Network started syndicating his show nationally in March

689
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty six, and it was soon on more

690
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: than two hundred stations around the country. He called what

691
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: he did fist in the Mouth Radio, and now that

692
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: he was on a new time slot the mid morning

693
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: rather than the night as he'd usually been before, his

694
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: ratings exploded. This is generally thought to be due to

695
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: the fact that being on earlier in the day opened

696
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: him up to a vast new audience of board housewives.

697
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: People were titillated. One of his networks advertised the show

698
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: in a full page newspaper spread listing all the Nazis

699
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: and klansmen and other pieces of shit he'd had on

700
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: his show, and then concluding with you may agree or

701
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: disagree with Joe Pine, you may scream and rage at

702
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: some of his remarks, but you won't turn him off. Yes,

703
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: I mean, what's the antent of that?

704
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 3: Stay?

705
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 5: Is that?

706
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 2: Is that shaming me? Is that?

707
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 5: Like?

708
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 3: Yes?

709
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, you heard the feel bad I do? Yeah,

710
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: but you won't turn him off? Yeah?

711
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 3: You motherfucker. This is on you unless you turn him off.

712
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: We want this motherfucker off the air, but we can't.

713
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: You like him too much? Just son of a bitch.

714
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,439
Speaker 3: We tried to look in the doors, he just shows

715
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 3: up inside? What about.

716
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: Secret doors?

717
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: So Joe was on both the radio and the TV,

718
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: and his television show A Learn alone earned him more

719
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: money per year than Mickey Mantle played playing made playing

720
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: for the Yankees. So he's making like more than Mickey

721
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 1: Mantle money. Now, professional sports players made less money in

722
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 1: those days, but still he's he's raking it in. He

723
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: was the top rated talk show host and the second

724
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: largest market in the US.

725
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels wrong that I don't know. Yeah, like

726
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 3: you said, for the professional athletes made less money back then.

727
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: But look, I feels wrong that like's Mickey Mantle. I

728
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: know who Mickey Mantle is. If anyone, shouldn't he make

729
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 3: all the money?

730
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 1: So from Smithsonian Magazine quote. At a time when TV's

731
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: leading men included Walter Cronkite, Edward R. Murrow, Andy Griffith,

732
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: and Captain Kangaroo, Pine was the medium's first shock jock,

733
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: a firebrand who invited hippies, civil rights activists and Ku

734
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: Klux Klansman alike to take a hike or go gargle

735
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: with razor blades. By the mid sixties, he was the

736
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: most popular TV radio voice in America. Johnny Carson had

737
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: more television viewers, but Pine, with a syndicated TV show

738
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: in two hundred plus radio outlets, had an audience to rifle.

739
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: Johnny's Life magazine called him sadistic, a barroom tough, but

740
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: millions turned in to watch the fireworks. When a guest

741
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: advocating free love set off a melee Pines, audience charged

742
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 1: the set and knocked it flat.

743
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 2: Oh shit.

744
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: One guest, the suave TV personality David Suskin, earned a

745
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: chorus of booze for calling Pine's program an orgy for morons.

746
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: Host and guest both got a kick out of that.

747
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 1: So it is like the first on air fight ringer. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

748
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 1: he's also like Jerry Springer, the first Spring.

749
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: He's the first Saldo and yeah, we'll be talking about

750
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: Morton later.

751
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, like all of it's not just like Tucker Carlson

752
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: the time.

753
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 3: They cracked every aspect of this, like he really did.

754
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 3: He he is an important man to know about, Like

755
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,760
Speaker 3: he really uh, he figured he was. Yeah, he figured

756
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 3: some out. Most of it shit, I wish no one

757
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: had figured out, but he did figure it out. I

758
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 3: can make millions if I put Nazis on the air.

759
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm.

760
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

761
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: Now, I think it's probably a better time to give

762
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: you a better idea of how Joe sounded, because when

763
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: you read it out the way I have put it together,

764
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: it probably sounds like he's like a stereotypical modern shock jock.

765
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: And while he was the prototype for that, his actual

766
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 1: broadcasting style was much more subdued and witty. In this clip,

767
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: Joe interviews an early vegan activist and what he called

768
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: his beef box.

769
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 6: Check it out as you cannot hear the screams of

770
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 6: a lamb in this slaughterhouse. You cannot hear the screams

771
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 6: of your son on the battlefield.

772
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 5: I would like to ask you a meaningful question at

773
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 5: this point.

774
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: Are you a vegetarian?

775
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 6: I am?

776
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: Indeed? Do you ever eat tomatoes?

777
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 6: I would say to you, yes, in the last three

778
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 6: thousand years.

779
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: Man, I'm asking you a question.

780
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 5: Do you ever eat tomatoes?

781
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 6: Three?

782
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 2: Do you eat tomatoes?

783
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 6: Of course?

784
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 3: I do you do?

785
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 5: Do you know that there is now scientific proof that

786
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 5: when you cut a tomato with screams, there is electrical.

787
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 2: There is killer of tomatoes, and tomato doesn't pay.

788
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 6: Are the tomato feels no pain?

789
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 7: Tomatoes blotoo, Tomato does.

790
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 3: Not swater plato take a walk.

791
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 2: By.

792
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: Oh you're going to sing something I would This is

793
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: a tomato stump.

794
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 6: As the animal dies. So the slaughter of that animal.

795
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 2: All right, that's probably enough of that. So yeah, what

796
00:38:58,239 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 2: do you think of that?

797
00:38:58,920 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 6: Top?

798
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 3: Is not what I was expecting? I know, he sounds

799
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 3: like Walter Cronkite. And then he flips the fuck out.

800
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then he flips the fuck out.

801
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: But he starts from this real low ebb and he

802
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: also does like he says, get off, but then the

803
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 1: guy's like, well I want to sing, and he's like, oh, absolutely.

804
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, please do. This is great, dude. Yeah, that's going

805
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 2: to be incredible content.

806
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: And that clip was from sixty six. Wow.

807
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen sixties.

808
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 3: It feels extremely modern, especially like almost to be on

809
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: TV today. His bad his extremely bad faith argument. Yeah,

810
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 3: it's all he's he's a he's a trailblazer top. Yeah,

811
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 3: this guy. You can put this dude on TV right

812
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 3: now and he would be the hottest thing.

813
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing, and he there's a level of almost Yeah,

814
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: it's just different than the way they mock people today.

815
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: It's almost more. It's almost gentler in a weird ways.

816
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: He's not he's not the same as what came after Again,

817
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: he's this weird mix of what we have today, and

818
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: like Walter Cronkite's it's a fascinating it's fascinating to just

819
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: listen to his stuff. When the civil rights movement kicked off,

820
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: Joe devoted a tremendous amount of time to discussing the

821
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: angry Negro, which it's more or less what you'd expect.

822
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh boy.

823
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: Clips in one episode he brought on several militant black activists.

824
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: I believe they were black panthers, and in a heated

825
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: moment during the show. I've not been able to find

826
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: this clip, but it's very famous. During the show, he

827
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: opens his desk drawer to show them his revolver and

828
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: he threatens them with it on air, so he we

829
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: could he could go off. He advocated bombing North Vietnam

830
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: back to the Stone Age, obviously, but he could also

831
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: be a surprising man, And part became because he came

832
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: from an era in which big political figures could admit

833
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: to learning something and changing their opinion, and in part

834
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: because some of the issues that are now very aggressive

835
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: are a lot less. We're a lot less settled in

836
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: those days in terms of like how it was going

837
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: to break down, writer or left. So he conducted an

838
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 1: interview with Cosmopolitan editor Helen Gurley Brown, and he started

839
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: the interview by calling her a dingbat and then asked

840
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: her to explain why girls should be considered equal to

841
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: men in the workplace. But then he sat quietly while

842
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: she gave her speech like explaining her peace on women's liberation,

843
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 1: and he applauded her at the end of it. He

844
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 1: was certainly more polite to women than towards men, and

845
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: more polite to white people towards black people. But even

846
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,359
Speaker 1: when in interviewing people he clearly despised, Joe maintained an

847
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 1: air that's just so much more congenial than what you

848
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: see on TV today. Here he is talking to Paul Krasner,

849
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: a left wing magazine publisher who later went on to

850
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: head High Times. So this is him talking with someone

851
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 1: he fucking hates.

852
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 5: Uh, which deodorant does Lyndon Johnson use?

853
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 3: Now?

854
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

855
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 3: What is that?

856
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 1: Paul Krasner?

857
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 2: What is that?

858
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: Which deodorant does Lyndon Johnson use? That's your front page head?

859
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 8: Yes, do you want to know which one? By brand name?

860
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 5: No?

861
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: I want to know what is that? What is the

862
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: what is the reason for that?

863
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 6: Well?

864
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 8: I think that the present of the United States? Is

865
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 8: it such a height that people have?

866
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:15,479
Speaker 2: What a height?

867
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:16,959
Speaker 1: Height?

868
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 8: He's put out such a pedestal that people have to

869
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 8: realize that he is only a human being and does

870
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 8: use a deodorant like you and me.

871
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: And I'm a little worried about you. I'm he's lighting

872
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: a cigarette now, So yeah, that's like it's clearly again

873
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 1: this is not somebody he particularly respects, but it's also

874
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: like it's not a shouting debate. I guess that's what impresses.

875
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: Not impresses. Is the thing that is interesting to me

876
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: because like, you don't you don't have that kind of

877
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: like congenial distaste. Is how it feels watching them.

878
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, he feels more like Carson than like, yeah, a

879
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 3: Tucker Carlson at this point. Yeah.

880
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's the kind I wish I could find

881
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: the thing the interview he does with those those black

882
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: panthers where he shows them his revolver, because I've heard

883
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: different descriptions of it, something that make it sound like

884
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 1: he's threatening them with a gun and some that make

885
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: it sound like he's just like, well, I have a

886
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 1: gun too, and like I really don't know, and I

887
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: don't I don't know what the actual tone was in

888
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: that out.

889
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: Either one is entirely possible based on what you've shown

890
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 3: me exactly. Either one makes complete sense, like he's yeah,

891
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 3: he's more polite, but he's still he's still, oh for.

892
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 1: Sure, like yeah, And the interview with Krasner got markedly

893
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: less friendly after the ad break from Smithsonian magazine quote,

894
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: why do you print the most obscene words? Pine demanded,

895
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: do you edit your magazine because you were an unwanted child,

896
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: to which Krasner responds, no, daddy, They're talk one downhill

897
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 1: from there. He asked me about my acne scar, says Krasner,

898
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: now eighty five. That was a low blow. I said,

899
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: let me ask you something. Do you take off your

900
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 1: wooden leg before you make love to your wife? And

901
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: is jaw dropped? According to Krasner, the audience gasped, while

902
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: Pine's producers everted their eyes.

903
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 2: Surrealistic.

904
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 3: That's good TV though, right there, that's a good TV

905
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 3: so the listeners know this cool? Was his clip sixty

906
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 3: seven something, yeah, sixty seven, Yeah, do you fuck your wife?

907
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 3: That's your fake leg nineteen sixty seven in the sixties.

908
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

909
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 3: Andy Griffith is the biggest name in entertainment, and this

910
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 3: shit's on TV. Holy shit, like you could see like,

911
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 3: and that's part of the other thing that's interesting. Like

912
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 3: I'm gonna guess a lot of his audience, if not

913
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: most of it, weren't right wing, Like a lot of

914
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 3: them were probably people who like guys like Paul Krasner,

915
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 3: but like want to see shit like this on TV.

916
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 3: People have these kind of like conversations. He'll talk to

917
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 3: fucking anyone and he could surprise you. But before we

918
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,439
Speaker 3: get into that, Tom, you know what else is gonna

919
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 3: surprise you? Mmmmm, No, the quality of the.

920
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 1: Products and services that support this.

921
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: Podcast would be a surprise.

922
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it will be a surprise.

923
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: We're back.

924
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: And we're talking about what I think is one of

925
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: the more surprising things I found. So Jill Pine was

926
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: one of the very first major media figures in the

927
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: United States to platform a transgender woman discussing trans issues,

928
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 1: and he did show in a way that is incredibly

929
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: surprising for the time. This is from nineteen sixty six

930
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,959
Speaker 1: and I want to just play this, and the woman

931
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 1: he's talking to, Christine Jorgensen, was like one of the

932
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:42,720
Speaker 1: very first super public transgender media figures, very famous, very famous.

933
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: So he's certainly not the first person to talk to her,

934
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 1: but he's one of the first people with a massive

935
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: platform to sit down and have a long conversation with

936
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: a transgender person and a major outlet. And I think

937
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: the tone of the conversation, given where we are now

938
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: with the right wing on this issue, is going to

939
00:45:58,280 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: be surprising to people.

940
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 5: It was our guests who first flushed the problems of

941
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 5: transsexuals into the open. Christine Jorgensen was born a male.

942
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 5: She was ascribed in her high school annual as a

943
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 5: clever lad. Later she became a private first class in

944
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 5: the Army. Though outwardly a boy, Christine was sexually disturbed.

945
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 5: The story of her later discovery and transformation electrified the world.

946
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,279
Speaker 5: It was the first chapter in a new outlook toward

947
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 5: the transsexual phenomenon. And yet I can't believe that yours

948
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 5: was the first operation of this type.

949
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 2: It wasn't Jill.

950
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 4: The first one was I think done somewhere in the

951
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 4: area of nineteen twenty six or twenty seven. There was

952
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 4: a marvelous doctor in Germany called Magnus Hirschfeldt who started

953
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 4: the whole investigation to our in our modern age, let's

954
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 4: put it that way. Before that, there may have been others,

955
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 4: but I know not of them.

956
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 5: Is this a legal operation in the United States?

957
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:56,959
Speaker 1: Yet?

958
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 3: Oh?

959
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 4: Yes, Oh, certainly you know they're doing it a Johns

960
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,919
Speaker 4: Hopkins now in Baltimore, happens the best, Yes, And they're

961
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 4: doing at the University of Minnesota Medical School. They've done

962
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 4: five cases to the best of my knowledge at the

963
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 4: University of California Medical School.

964
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 5: How many people and your a particular predicament do you

965
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 5: think there are today? I mean, not those who are

966
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 5: successfully assuming you have successfully bridge the gap, but how

967
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 5: many are in that spot where they need this?

968
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,879
Speaker 4: Well, I could only judge by what I heard from

969
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 4: Johns Hopkins when I was in Baltimore several weeks ago.

970
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 4: Doctor Money and I did a television show together, and

971
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 4: he's one of the doctors involved in Johns Hopkins And

972
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 4: he asked me if I thought I knew how many,

973
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 4: and I said, I don't have the vaguest idea, And

974
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 4: he said, according to his statistics, they should be thirty

975
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 4: thousand transsexuals of both sides in the United States.

976
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 5: To get it straight, at transsexual and a transvestite differ

977
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 5: in that the transvestite is addressing up type of homosexual.

978
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 5: And you don't claim to be a homosexual, Nona, I

979
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 5: should say, you claim you were not a homosexual.

980
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 4: Well, an interesting point if you say that if I

981
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 4: was established and accepted by society for the first twenty

982
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 4: six years of my life as a male, then my

983
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 4: emotional feelings during that period toward another male had to

984
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 4: be considered a homosexual emotion in the eyes of society,

985
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 4: although I never saw it that way in my own eyes.

986
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 4: But again, Joe, may I correct something which has been

987
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 4: very is very startling. I think that a transvestite they

988
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 4: have proven statistically that ninety nine percent of them are heterosexual.

989
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 4: Now this is even more interesting than ever.

990
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: People who men.

991
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 5: Who dress up in women's clothing are really, by the

992
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 5: world standards, normal sexual right.

993
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: Wow, So yeah, that's that's what I expect.

994
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 2: It surprising.

995
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know he does say Heaven's to

996
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 3: Betsy when she's she's talking about the different then he's.

997
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:50,359
Speaker 2: Like the terminology.

998
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 3: Again, this is nineteen sixty seven, right, Yeah, so let's

999
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 3: say it is like, sure, okay, Joe, Like he's actually like, okay,

1000
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 3: what's the proper term? What's the difference? Like explained, you're

1001
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 3: very careful about gendering her properly. He's being very surprising. Yeah,

1002
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 3: what I would have said this?

1003
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: Wow? Yeah, I didn't.

1004
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: And I talked to a transgender friend of mine about this,

1005
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:17,400
Speaker 1: and she did point out that Christine Jorgensen had some

1006
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: like kind of pretty anti gay attitudes and one of

1007
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: the things that was going on here. And one of

1008
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: the things that made her acceptable is that, like she

1009
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: was like, well, I'm not going to be like people

1010
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: like me won't be homosexual if we get to transition, right,

1011
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: because then it's yeah. And I didn't really catch that

1012
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 1: when I listened to the interview, but I can see

1013
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: how that could have been an element here. Although when

1014
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: he brings up homosexuality, I didn't note anything aggressive in it,

1015
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 1: like he was just kind of asking for clarification about yeah,

1016
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: not in this.

1017
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: I'm sure.

1018
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 3: I'm sure he was right, yeah, there's some way yeah. Yeah,

1019
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: But but so not the interview I would have expected.

1020
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 3: And I think it says less about him than it

1021
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 3: just does about how the issue had not been politicized

1022
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 3: at this point, like the existence of transgender people had

1023
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 3: not been politicized to the extent that it is now,

1024
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 3: even though it was much more dangerous to consider transitioning

1025
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 3: back then. It also there was not the kind of

1026
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 3: political rancorbind It's just a fascinating piece of history and

1027
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 3: evidence that, like Joe Pine again, you could be a

1028
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 3: right wing firebrand on TV and encounter something you didn't

1029
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 3: understand and like learn about it on air without it

1030
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 3: being like a thing. Yeah, Do you think that's a

1031
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 3: product of him being like a genuinely curious person, like

1032
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 3: if I want to learn new things, etc. Or is

1033
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: that more of a product of what you were saying

1034
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 3: about the issue where it wasn't clear which side of

1035
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 3: the political spectrum the issue was going to fall on,

1036
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 3: so he didn't want to go as hard as he

1037
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 3: normally would had the issue been more firmly settled on

1038
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:50,240
Speaker 3: one side.

1039
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1040
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: I've heard people theorize that part of why he was

1041
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: very polite and liked Christine Jorgensen is that she was

1042
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: a veteran like him, and he had just that kind

1043
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: of le first act for like, well, whatever else about

1044
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,319
Speaker 1: this person we fought in the same war together. I

1045
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: think some of it's also, I think the attitude and

1046
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: like the way people presented themselves, Like he was a

1047
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: guy who was raised in a specific time where if

1048
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: people present themselves a specific way, you treat them a

1049
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,839
Speaker 1: specific way, right, And I think people who kind of

1050
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: like Joe or Krassner, you know, it's kind of like

1051
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: a left wing hippie type, and so he did not

1052
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: feel the need to be respectful Christine like presented as

1053
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: like a very kind of like bougie, upper middle class

1054
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 1: white woman, and he treated her with respect as a result.

1055
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 2: The same was true of.

1056
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: Some other women he interviewed who he had a disagreement with.

1057
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 1: So I think some of it may just be that

1058
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: just like there was more of like a well, regardless

1059
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: of your feelings, if somebody presents in this way, if

1060
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: they if they match kind of our expectations of upper

1061
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,560
Speaker 1: class white people behavior, and you treat them with a

1062
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,719
Speaker 1: certain level of respect and regard because that's just how

1063
00:51:53,760 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: we are. Yeah, it's a fascinating time, fascinating time capsule.

1064
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: And that was a I think maybe the longest clip

1065
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 1: we've ever played on this show. But I just I

1066
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: was really surprised when I came across that, learning like

1067
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: this is the guy who gave mental birth to Rush

1068
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: Limbaugh and Tucker Carlson.

1069
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, not the interview you would expect.

1070
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 3: No.

1071
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: As a last treat, I have one more thing I

1072
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: want to play for you. This is a segment from

1073
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: Joe's show where he talks with Anton Levy, head of

1074
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 1: the Boy Tom.

1075
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 2: You're gonna have a good time with this one man popcorns.

1076
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you get Antony on the TV, and you

1077
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 3: know you're gonna have a good one.

1078
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 7: And how do you make your living as a counselor sorcerer,

1079
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 7: practicing wizard, shaman, warlock, whatever you wish to call it.

1080
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 7: You're also a male witch, a warlock. Well, a male

1081
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 7: witch is considered a warlock. You're glad to be a

1082
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 7: witch then, uh, a male witch, but not a white witch,

1083
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 7: not like some of these people that have been on

1084
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 7: various shows that bend over backwards trying to convince everyone

1085
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 7: how good they are.

1086
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:09,919
Speaker 1: They never perform.

1087
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 3: Black magic, only white magic.

1088
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 8: I think this is.

1089
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 7: Really make that man disappear out of the dock, out

1090
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 7: of the doc. Why should I want to?

1091
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 5: Because we have somebody else coming up?

1092
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 7: Of course I can't make him disappear because I am

1093
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 7: naturally casting the mold of a human being.

1094
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 2: And I think this.

1095
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 5: Less human and more methhrostophelean to me, thank you, sir.

1096
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 5: I call him a devil complimented.

1097
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 3: It's just remarkable to me, the degree, the degree to

1098
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:43,280
Speaker 3: which Anton Levy looks like Joe Kuchan from Command and Conquer.

1099
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy who played Kane. They're the same.

1100
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:51,880
Speaker 1: Maybe Kane was Anton Levy. That's my command and conquer theory.

1101
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: That's gonna be very funny. He doesn't.

1102
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 3: He looks He looks like the villain in every FMV

1103
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 3: computer game. That's amazing. I can't he's wearing an ambulant.

1104
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 3: He's such a dummy every time he goes on TV.

1105
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 3: It's so funny. He was like, no, I can't make

1106
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 3: that guy disappear. White magic? White magic?

1107
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:12,359
Speaker 2: Are you doing?

1108
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 3: And yeah, I have to side with Joe on this one.

1109
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 3: What do you kind of magic? Are you up to?

1110
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 3: The magic are you going to do? Can you make

1111
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 3: that you disappear? Yeah.

1112
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: By the late nineteen sixties, Joe was a very wealthy man.

1113
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: He rove drove a Rolls Royce and when he parked

1114
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: at the studio he was so frightened it would be

1115
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: vandalized that he had his network hire a security guard

1116
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:37,399
Speaker 1: to watch the car while he was on the air

1117
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: park in the garage.

1118
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:39,160
Speaker 3: Man, what are you doing?

1119
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly what are you doing? On paper?

1120
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: In many ways he sounded like the same kind of

1121
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: guy that many right wing media grifters are today. But

1122
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: the things he the thing he had that they all

1123
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: lacked is is a sense of charm. There's a level

1124
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 1: of class that you get with Joe that, just like

1125
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 1: is is completely absent from everyone who follows.

1126
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's it's more the more we hear of him.

1127
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 3: I had said he sounds like Cronkite earlier, but he

1128
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 3: really sounds more like like Carson or like a talk

1129
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 3: show most where it's like he can be warm and

1130
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 3: supportive until he's not, and then he'll turn on you

1131
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 3: and kind of ridicule you, but in a in a

1132
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 3: polite way.

1133
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: I can see how a lot of people who disagreed

1134
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: profoundly with Joe Pine could enjoy listening to his show

1135
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: in a way that like I cannot with Tucker Carlson

1136
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 1: or nobody's like nobody like hate watches for enjoyment Tucker Carlson.

1137
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: It's just too like horrifying, Like nobody does that with

1138
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: beIN Shapiro or whatever.

1139
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 3: No, no, no, that's an assignment. That's not something that is

1140
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 3: an assignment, that is that is a that is conflict journalism,

1141
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 3: like you.

1142
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 2: Are taking on pain. I'm looking at Sophie nodding.

1143
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but people could like enjoy like you enjoy, Like

1144
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: why I recommend watching him talk to Anton Leavey. It's yeah,

1145
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:53,560
Speaker 1: it's it's legitimately fun. Just too shad, too real shitheads

1146
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 1: just dogging it up in the sixties.

1147
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:57,160
Speaker 2: At one point he had.

1148
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 3: One point he had Harlan Ellison on as a guest. Now,

1149
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 3: Harlan Ellison quite a fellow.

1150
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: At the time, he was a Los Angeles Free Press columnist,

1151
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: and he's now a legendary dead sci fi author, the

1152
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: author if I have no mouth, but I must scream

1153
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 1: and some other real.

1154
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 3: The way you phrased that made it sound like he's

1155
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 3: legendarily dead, he is.

1156
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 2: He is a lot of people.

1157
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 3: I mean, Harlan Ellison was a famous misanthrope.

1158
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 2: He made a lot of enemies.

1159
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: He made a lot of enemies, and politically he was

1160
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 1: pretty much the opposite of Joe Pine, although in terms

1161
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: of being unpleasant, they were both very unpleasant people. Famously,

1162
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: Harlan Ellison called Joe a hustler and a bully, but

1163
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: noted that he was very sharp.

1164
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 3: Quote.

1165
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: I thought I'd go on his show and beat him

1166
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: at his own game, but I blew it. I spent

1167
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: my time talking about the issues, civil liberties and all that,

1168
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 1: and he talked about America the trouble with Pine was

1169
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:53,839
Speaker 1: that he was really really good at what he did now,

1170
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: and that does get to like, yeah, you're ever gonna

1171
00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: win talking about the issues with these guys. That's not

1172
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: And you could only get Joe to listen when it

1173
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 1: wasn't something he saw as an issue. I think that's

1174
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: why his why that interview with Jurgensen went the way

1175
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 1: it did, is because it wasn't a political issue to.

1176
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 3: His experience of interest. To me, I was curious, Yeah,

1177
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 3: this isn't this isn't real. This is just some flighty nonsense,

1178
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 3: you know, Yeah.

1179
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: It's I mean, I don't even think he was treating

1180
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: it like nonsense. He was treating it like he was

1181
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: just learning a new science.

1182
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 5: Fate.

1183
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 3: It wasn't political, It was not a politic He definitely

1184
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 3: didn't treat it the same way he was treating the

1185
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 3: High Times dude or Anton Levey. But I feel like

1186
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 3: he probably considered them in the same bucket of like, well,

1187
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:38,439
Speaker 3: this isn't this is like a personal interest story, this isn't.

1188
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely in the same I think he clearly respected

1189
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: her more than he did any either of them. But yes,

1190
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: I think it was the same kind of like well,

1191
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: this is not a political thing. This is this is

1192
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: personal interest. This is just something that people are going

1193
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: to be fascinated by that I can also like you can,

1194
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: you can you can create a kind of like fantastic

1195
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: title for it. You know, it's something that'll that'll get

1196
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: people get eyeball on the screen. In nineteen sixty nine,

1197
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: Joe started having trouble breathing. He was diagnosed with lung cancer.

1198
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: For years, he had jokingly called his cigarettes coffin nails,

1199
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: and you saw him light up at least one side.

1200
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 3: I think he smoked. In all the clips. He was

1201
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 3: always smoking. They just promise, yes, your government issue cigarettes.

1202
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 3: He had repeatedly promised that he would never give up smoking,

1203
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 3: but he quit after getting his diagnosis. It didn't help

1204
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 3: when he got too sick to drive to the studio.

1205
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 3: He hosted his show from his home, making him a

1206
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 3: trailblazer and yet another way, Wow, yeah, he was the first,

1207
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 3: first one.

1208
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 2: We're doing, tom Yeah, what we're doing. Yeah.

1209
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 1: At the very end of his life, he lay in

1210
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: his bed ranting about the Peace Corps because they wanted

1211
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: to end the war in Vietnam. He died in nineteen

1212
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,760
Speaker 1: seventy at age forty five, Thank you, comrades.

1213
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 3: Wow, yeah, forty five. That dude was forty five. That

1214
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 3: dude was mainline cigarettes his entire adult life. From the

1215
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 3: time he was fourteen. He was probably smoking six packs

1216
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 3: a day. I want the listeners to understand that this

1217
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 3: motherfucker looks like in these clips we watch, he looks

1218
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,800
Speaker 3: like he's at least sixty eight. Yeah, like he looks

1219
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 3: so old. I mean, in fairness, some of that's World

1220
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 3: War two, I know. Yeah, I mean, it's like a

1221
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 3: joke on the Internet where it's like, man, people who

1222
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 3: were like thirty eight in nineteen seventy five, it's like

1223
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 3: they were on the door. But like I wonder, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

1224
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 3: no forty five. Yeah, dude, he's now yeah, younger than Oh,

1225
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 3: what's the guy?

1226
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: The funny man? All the ladies like him. He's the

1227
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: ant man. What's his fucking name?

1228
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 3: Aunt man?

1229
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: Paul Rudd. Paul Rudd.

1230
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 3: Paul Rudd's older than Joe Pine died at now right,

1231
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 3: Paul Rudd is older than Joe Pine ever was and

1232
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 3: looks half his way.

1233
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: And when Paul.

1234
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 3: Rudd is seventy, he won't look at his oldest Joe

1235
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 3: Pine looked at this dude.

1236
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 2: It looks older than Shatner.

1237
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 1: The Smithsonian magazine lays out how directly his influence led

1238
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 1: to the creation of some of the most influential careers

1239
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: in modern right wing media.

1240
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 2: Quote.

1241
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: One of Pine's protegees, the controversial radio shouter Bob Grant,

1242
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: followed his mentor Pine as a talk show shatter in

1243
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: Los Angeles before moving to New York, where Grant paved

1244
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 1: the way for his successor at WABC, Sean Hannity. Oh

1245
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: Hannity had first gained national attention subbing for Rush Limbaugh,

1246
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 1: another Bob Grant fan. When Grant died in twenty thirteen,

1247
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 1: Hannity hailed him as one of the greatest pioneers of controversial,

1248
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:39,919
Speaker 1: opinionated talk radio. Grant, in turn, had acknowledged his debt

1249
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: to the founder of in your Face talk. Even Vice

1250
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 1: President Mike Pence, who hosted a right wing talk show

1251
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: in Indiana in the nineteen nineties, was a successor of Pines.

1252
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: According to Harlan Ellison, who admired Pine's shrewdness while loathing

1253
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 1: his politics, I've appeared on that sort of show all

1254
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: over the country. They call it controversy. But they're all

1255
01:00:56,280 --> 01:01:00,960
Speaker 1: about vilification and hostility, and their motto is p is Pine.

1256
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: And Pine is again an odd figure for me, because

1257
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: when I first started reading this kind of stuff about him,

1258
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: calling him a bully, I expected a different kind of

1259
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 1: bully than the videos reveal. He's absolutely a bully, but

1260
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,959
Speaker 1: he's subtler than the ones we see today. I found

1261
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: a column in the Saturday Evening Post from the nineteen

1262
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 1: sixties where a left wing reviewer tries to explain his

1263
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: appreciation for the Joe Pine Show. Quote after watching one

1264
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 1: of these shows, and it does not matter whether I

1265
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 1: loaded the guests to the host or both, I feel

1266
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: somehow drained and less misanthropic. Not long ago, for example,

1267
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: I had a terrible day. I had a migraine, and

1268
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 1: my daughter sliced her finger with a razor blade, and

1269
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 1: I got a rejection slip and a cop gave me

1270
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: a speeding ticket, my third this year, which means that

1271
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 1: I will probably lose my license, and in Los Angeles,

1272
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: that is like being a functional paraplegic. That night, I

1273
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: watched Joe Pine. His guests included a lady who complained

1274
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: that television sportscasters never carried drag racing results, a man

1275
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 1: who blamed the current racial unrest on Franklin Delano Roosevelt,

1276
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: and a veteran who said we ought to drop the

1277
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 1: big bomb on Vietnam. The vet said he did not

1278
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:00,120
Speaker 1: fight World War Two. To throw this one away, it

1279
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 1: turned out that he had been a Navy mail man.

1280
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 1: I was outside the zoo looking in again. Life did

1281
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 1: not seem so bad after all. I went to bed

1282
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: and slept.

1283
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 2: Well that what's going on in that guy's life?

1284
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 3: Though? Yeah, that is honest. We had lost his license,

1285
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 3: his daughter cut razor blade. Yeah wait, wait, she had

1286
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 3: access to razor blades. I'm not gonna blades. It was

1287
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 3: a different time, Tom. I'm sure he was giving her

1288
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 3: cigarettes too. This guy, this guy's life was already uh

1289
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 3: shaky for the Joe Pine show came to the picture.

1290
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 2: But yeah you could. Yeah, yeah.

1291
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: The the appreciation you could have for Joe Pine if

1292
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 1: you weren't in the cult is part of what makes

1293
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: him different from what came later. And in part two, Tom,

1294
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what came later, But for

1295
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: right now, we need to talk about the ship You've

1296
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: got to plug. Oh geez, all right, Well, yeah, if you.

1297
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 3: Uh, I've got a Patreon if you had ever a

1298
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,520
Speaker 3: Patreon dot com slash game flun Employed, you can uh

1299
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 3: find our podcast stories me and David Bell. But also

1300
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 3: from Cracked. We do a bunch of shows every week.

1301
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 3: We do We just watched Hypecast, We do Fox Volders,

1302
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 3: a Maniac, Tom and Jeff watch Batman, Start Trek, the

1303
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 3: Next Futurama. A bunch of great shows you can check

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01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 3: out there. I also do writing over at Collider and

1305
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:17,439
Speaker 3: for some more News and for one nine hundred hot Dog,

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01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 3: So you can look at all of those things.

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01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: Check it out. Yeah, all right, and you can you know,

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01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 1: you can go to hell. That's right, go to hell.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 2: When you get to Hell, tell Joe Pine that Robert sent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, tell Joe Pine Robert Sinsha, and then kick him

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01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 3: in the nuts and scream the name Rush Limbaugh. He

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01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 3: won't know what you're saying. He died decades before that

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Speaker 3: man was relevant.

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Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

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Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.