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Speaker 1: The Atlanta child murders is one of the largest and

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Speaker 1: most complex cases in US history. As a team, we've

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Speaker 1: spent months taking through police records, court documents, and media archives.

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Speaker 1: Through all this research, we've come across a lot of

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Speaker 1: unusual stories that don't seem to be widely remembered today.

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Speaker 1: With this episode, we're going to dig deeper into some

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Speaker 1: of these stories. This is the vaults where we're going

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Speaker 1: down to the sub basement identity stories faults. After driving

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Speaker 1: around Atlanta with Jason and the team locating some of

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Speaker 1: the prevalent sites in this case, I had many more

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Speaker 1: questions about the patterns of these murders, including if a

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Speaker 1: pattern even existed at all. It was eerie just how

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Speaker 1: close by some of these murders were to each other,

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Speaker 1: and how the patterns seem to change once the body

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Speaker 1: started showing up in the rivers. Is it even possible

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Speaker 1: they're all connected or there are different patterns at play

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Speaker 1: here In this episode will be mentioning a book called

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Speaker 1: The List by Chet debt Linger and Jeff Pruge. Debt

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Speaker 1: Linger was a law enforcement officer, independent investigator, and an author,

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Speaker 1: and Pruge was a writer for the l A. Times.

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Speaker 1: Though now out of print, the book remains one of

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Speaker 1: the most comprehensive and critical literary sources on the Atlanta

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Speaker 1: child murders. During the investigation, Chet debt Linger focus on

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Speaker 1: geography as part of his independent investigation. Seven former Atlanta

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Speaker 1: policemen give about twenty hours each week to this case.

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Speaker 1: One of them is Chet that Linger. His strength is

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Speaker 1: not an investigation, but it is in analysis. He has

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Speaker 1: compiled a map with twenty missing and murdered Atlanta children.

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Speaker 1: He counts some Atlanta police do not count because they

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Speaker 1: fit the pattern. Because if you travel that Linger's route,

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Speaker 1: you can see most of the places where kids were

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Speaker 1: snatched or last seen or dumped without ever leaving your car.

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Speaker 1: He even believes a map he has drawn would show

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Speaker 1: where the killer lives and works and plays. Det Linger

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Speaker 1: believes the killer lives somewhere near Memorial Drive and Second Avenue,

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Speaker 1: may hang around near Hollywood and High Tower, and work

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Speaker 1: somewhere between red Wine Road and Stewart Avenue. I'd have

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Speaker 1: someone at this point, someone at this point, someone at

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Speaker 1: this point and at this point, and I'd be looking

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Speaker 1: for the same car or the same individual would come

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Speaker 1: by that place, and I keep him there and I'd

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Speaker 1: find out, do we have a person passing these points?

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've already got penty kids there, and I

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Speaker 1: would find out. And if it showed up, if the

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Speaker 1: same person showed up more than the two or three

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Speaker 1: times at the different points on on this route, I

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Speaker 1: think I have suspect. Furthermore, det Linger says the Official

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Speaker 1: Task Force can no longer deny some of these cases

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Speaker 1: are related. I think maybe the kids aren't connected, but

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Speaker 1: the geography shure connected because this child came from here

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Speaker 1: to hear this child came from here to here, and

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Speaker 1: this child came from here to here. Now, the only

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Speaker 1: other explanation would be if this guy, if there are

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Speaker 1: three different killers, they just happened to wander out and

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Speaker 1: find the same spot to leave a body in those

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Speaker 1: those locations are connected. I've asked members of the unofficial

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Speaker 1: Task Force why none of their advice is sought by

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Speaker 1: Atlanta police. They all answered the same thing. Politics, petty politics, chat.

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Speaker 1: Detlinger is ready to share everything he knows if anybody

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Speaker 1: wants it. We decided to talk to Dr Maurice Gobwin,

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Speaker 1: a private investigator and geographical profiler who worked with me

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Speaker 1: on my first podcast Up and Vanished for Atlanta Monster.

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Speaker 1: We asked them to assemble a heat map of all

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Speaker 1: the missing and murder cases to see what he could

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Speaker 1: tell us about the geographical patterns. There's two types of

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Speaker 1: serial killers. Predominantly, you have a commuter, and a commuter

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Speaker 1: commutes from the suburban area into a central business district

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Speaker 1: and kills, or he commutes from the inner city out

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Speaker 1: and kills and then goes back home. Or the marauder,

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Speaker 1: and that's just somebody that's just scattered about running around here.

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Speaker 1: They're just picking them up, you know, in any way

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Speaker 1: they can, and killing them and dumping them. That's two

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Speaker 1: comparable terms typologies that you want to call them. The

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Speaker 1: first one is called a viper, and the second one

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Speaker 1: is called cobra, obviously based on the behavior of the snakes,

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Speaker 1: the way in which they behave. In my analysis of

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Speaker 1: aerial killers, I found that six were vipers. They lay low,

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Speaker 1: They target victims near familiar areas, such as home, at work.

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Speaker 1: They dispose of earlier victims at considerable distances from home,

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Speaker 1: and later victims in or near their comfort zone. That

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Speaker 1: comfort zone provides them. They believe a psychological blanket of

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Speaker 1: protection thirty seven percent with Cobra's huge difference. There huge difference.

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Speaker 1: This relates also to a criminal behavior. This type of predator,

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Speaker 1: to Cobra, is what we call a hunter. They target

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Speaker 1: victims outside of their comfort zone so they're not too

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Speaker 1: worried about that blanket of protection. They dispose of each

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Speaker 1: victim at a considerable distance from home, and later victims

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Speaker 1: in or near their comfort zones. I have a theory

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Speaker 1: called the wedge theory, and this is based on academic

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Speaker 1: research on sold cases. The wedge theory the foundation of

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Speaker 1: it is this that ever criminal retains some kind of

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Speaker 1: environmental image of his or her city. Criminals develop mental

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Speaker 1: maps of their environments in the same way non criminals do.

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Speaker 1: For example, you go to the grocery store, you go,

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Speaker 1: you take a right out of your driveway, and you

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Speaker 1: go to the shopping center a particular way. Rarely do

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Speaker 1: you deviate from those things. Most people do not deviate.

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Speaker 1: And then finally, criminals use their mental maps thereafter as

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Speaker 1: a spatial frame of reference. That's the foundation of wedge theory,

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Speaker 1: sort of shaped like a windshield wiper effect. The home

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Speaker 1: base would typically be near this short point of the

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Speaker 1: wedge and the crimes will be dispersed outward towards the

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Speaker 1: wide part of the wedge. In the Atlanta child murder case,

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Speaker 1: I had geographical coordinates, A plotted the thirty three locations

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Speaker 1: dealing with these murders. I plotted the body dump sites,

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Speaker 1: and I plotted the abduction sites, and which is rare

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Speaker 1: to have those abduction sites because a lot of cases

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Speaker 1: don't have them. And then I entered those geographical coordinates

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Speaker 1: into my predator system and ran it, and what I

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Speaker 1: got was a forty three to forty four probability that

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Speaker 1: the fender lives between Highway one thirty and UH Interstate

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Speaker 1: twenty nine. The probability percentage is low normally I'm getting

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Speaker 1: on other cases, I get at least fifty here four.

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Speaker 1: I think there's something else going on that we're attributing

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Speaker 1: murders to an individual here that they're not responsible for,

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Speaker 1: and that may be a reason why of the low

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Speaker 1: probability plot. For geographically, there's no pattern between the child

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Speaker 1: murders and the adult murders. It's very very rare that

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Speaker 1: a serial killer will kill children and adults. I would

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Speaker 1: separate uh Eddie Duncan, Larry Rogers, aged Michael McIntosh agree,

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Speaker 1: Jimmy ray Payne, a John Porter, Nathaniel cater Age. Those

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Speaker 1: victims fall into the wedge with Wayne wims Is home

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Speaker 1: down at the sharp point of the wedge. I would

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Speaker 1: separate those victims from the rest of the child murders.

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Speaker 1: We then asked Maurice about Daring Glass, the one victim

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Speaker 1: on the list that has never been found. Darren is

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Speaker 1: an orphan and has a history of running away. He's

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Speaker 1: done it twice before and told some playmates last Sunday

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Speaker 1: that he was going to do it again. Are you

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Speaker 1: worried about him? She is, but you just think he's

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Speaker 1: going to eventually come to show up. He has he

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Speaker 1: and you don't think he's been kidnapped. I shall know

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Speaker 1: you live on alone, on his own, because he won't leave.

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Speaker 1: And today the searchers took the form of a canvas

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Speaker 1: here in Darren's old neighborhood, where searchers went door to

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Speaker 1: door seeking out Darren's old friends who might be able

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Speaker 1: to offer some new information. We're trying to find any

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Speaker 1: information concerning his whereabouts, the way he possibly may be.

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Speaker 1: At this point, we feel that it's still very possible

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Speaker 1: that Darren Glass could be alive, safe and well at

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Speaker 1: some place. So far police have no leads at all,

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Speaker 1: but they say this case, like the others, is now

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Speaker 1: top priority. The bill marks the seventh month that we've

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Speaker 1: been conducting these searches, and I think it has taken

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Speaker 1: a lot of wear and tear out of a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. They combed the woods, sifted through debris, and

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Speaker 1: bagged what they thought might be evidence in the mounting

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Speaker 1: number of child murders haunting Atlanta. But slowly, as the

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Speaker 1: searchers found nothing, interest dwindled and the throng thin to

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Speaker 1: just a few. Now the search is at an end. Well.

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Speaker 1: To try to find the body of victim Darren Glass,

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Speaker 1: normally you would have to have is called reverse geographical

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Speaker 1: profile and meaning that we try to use the offender's

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Speaker 1: home base along with the rest of the victims and

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Speaker 1: try to get a pinpoint area that a victim is

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Speaker 1: likely to be at. In this case, I would pull

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Speaker 1: anything to do with when was out of that and

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Speaker 1: I would do the analysis with the rest of the victims.

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Speaker 1: And this will be the first time ever that you

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Speaker 1: will be able to use analysis of remaining victims to

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Speaker 1: try to find the one victim that's never been found before.

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Speaker 1: The case of Darren Glass is such an outlier from

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Speaker 1: what geographical profilers like Maurice tell us, it's not impossible

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Speaker 1: for him to still be found if he is indeed

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Speaker 1: a victim. In the summer of eighty one, after Wayne

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Speaker 1: Williams was arrested, a South Carolina artist came to Atlanta

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Speaker 1: to paint murals of the child victims on neighborhood housing

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Speaker 1: in the city, but it didn't get the reaction you

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Speaker 1: would expect. Over the weekend, bigger than life paintings of

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Speaker 1: the children started popping up around Atlanta, Latonia Wilson's picture

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Speaker 1: on a Wallet, Bowen Holmes, Angeline Ears, and McDaniel Glen,

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Speaker 1: Eric Middlebrook at Henry Thomas Housing Project. The paintings were

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Speaker 1: done in two days by Columbia South Carolina artist Ralph Waldrop.

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Speaker 1: He paid for the project himself as a gift and

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Speaker 1: remembrance of Atlanta's twenty eight tragedies. City officials are so

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Speaker 1: impressed with Waldrop's generosity they plan to make him an

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Speaker 1: honorary citizen of Atlanta tomorrow at a special ceremony. But

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Speaker 1: not everyone is happy with Waldrop's artistic contribution. Sixteen year

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Speaker 1: old Patrick Rogers mother says she and the other mothers

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Speaker 1: are furious that no one asked their permission. If Manages did,

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Speaker 1: he did have any reason to do it for est

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Speaker 1: parents gonna be all right. I don't think it's right.

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Speaker 1: It make the parents walk out him and when I

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Speaker 1: walk up to the pup, do something to me. Ms

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Speaker 1: Rogers says. Camille Bell drove through McDaniel Glenn yesterday and

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Speaker 1: was stunned to see her son Yusuf's picture in front

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Speaker 1: of her. They ain't nothing but memory. The mother's planned

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Speaker 1: to meet in the morning to decide what they should do,

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Speaker 1: but it appears what seems to be and out of

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Speaker 1: town or his act of kindness has turned sour. I

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Speaker 1: want it down. I want it down me, I want

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Speaker 1: it down. October nineteen eighty, during the height of the

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Speaker 1: hysteria around the Atlanta child murders, an explosion devastated a

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Speaker 1: local daycare center, killing four young black children. The explosion

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Speaker 1: happened at a time when no suspect was in custody

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Speaker 1: and rumors circulated constantly about KKK connections. At ten twenty

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Speaker 1: two on October, an explosion with a force of seventy

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Speaker 1: five sticks of dynamite ripped the roof off the daycare center.

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Speaker 1: Four three year old boys were killed instantly, so was

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Speaker 1: their teacher. Six others were injured. The black community was panicked.

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Speaker 1: Nine children in Atlanta were already murdered. Now this, they

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Speaker 1: insisted the explosion was a bomb, some sort of sick

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Speaker 1: conspiracy against blacks. Mayor Jackson and others tried to convince

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Speaker 1: them otherwise. The biggest rumor running through this crowd was

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Speaker 1: that the explosion was caused by a bomb. Tension began

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Speaker 1: to build because these people wanted to needed to blame

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Speaker 1: something for the tragedy they had just witnessed. Need your

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Speaker 1: place down? Why not live? Why the lack dot down?

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Speaker 1: Well in councilman? Dog time? What indail house him? That's

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Speaker 1: why we black leaders saw how dangerous the situation could get.

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Speaker 1: So Mayor Jackson and others trying to reassure the crowd,

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Speaker 1: what I want you to know that we will not

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Speaker 1: rest until we turn every stone, until we look under

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Speaker 1: every leaf, until we explode, exploit every possible lead, until

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Speaker 1: we follow every possible possibility. We will do everything in

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Speaker 1: our power to find the reason for this which at

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Speaker 1: this point appears to be an accident. However, the crowd

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Speaker 1: here did not believe much of what Mayor Jackson had said.

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Speaker 1: They still believed in the rumors that this was a

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Speaker 1: deliberate act of violence, and this didn't help. The rumor

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Speaker 1: of a bomb threat sent emergency teams into the elementary

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Speaker 1: school across the street from the daycare center. They ordered

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Speaker 1: everyone out and were tight lipped about why what are

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Speaker 1: you Why are you evacuating the school. Let's let's get

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Speaker 1: back when I ask you kindly to get back, okay,

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Speaker 1: and asked to get that let's go. There's a possibility

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Speaker 1: of a bomb. Nothing happened, either in the school or

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Speaker 1: in the crowds outside, although there were a lot of

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Speaker 1: passionate cries for someone to do something about anything. Could

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Speaker 1: you say they did know something encouraging relate took to

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Speaker 1: the future protection at you. I think that's all they

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Speaker 1: need something increasing protection for the area. We will do

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Speaker 1: everything in our power to increase protection for the area. Later,

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Speaker 1: a police investing Asian showed the explosion was an accident.

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Speaker 1: A poorly maintained boiler blew up. As tragic as it was,

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Speaker 1: it was an accident. Been bowling and from stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Sat down with us again

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Speaker 1: to go over the details of this tragic episode and

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Speaker 1: the subsequent conspiracy theories at spurred. Let's set the stage.

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Speaker 1: It's ten twenty two October at a place called the

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Speaker 1: Bowing Homes Daycare Center when an explosion occurs, and at

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Speaker 1: first people have no idea what's going on. From miles away,

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Speaker 1: you can see a plume of white smoke. People run

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Speaker 1: from adjacent streets. You know, especially think about the parents

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Speaker 1: who were there, who knew roughly where that building was. Right,

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Speaker 1: hundreds of people are mobbing the area, teachers running out

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Speaker 1: with their children. We would later learn that five people

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Speaker 1: passed away in that explosion. Uh. There were four children,

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Speaker 1: Andre Stanford, Ronald Brown, Kelvin Snelson, and Terence Bradley. These

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Speaker 1: boys were all around three years old. In addition, a

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Speaker 1: teacher named Nell Robinson also passed away, and UH six

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Speaker 1: to seven people were injured. The public immediately thought there

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Speaker 1: was a bomb, and in the archival footage you can

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Speaker 1: hear people in the back saying it was a bomb.

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Speaker 1: Go downtown. It was the clan. The clan did it.

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Speaker 1: This panic was compounded by the fact that the elementary

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Speaker 1: school across the street was also evacuated, and law enforcement

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Speaker 1: refused to say why. And in the absence of transparency,

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Speaker 1: of course, speculation grows. And so all it takes is

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Speaker 1: one person to say I heard that that there's a

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Speaker 1: bomb in there, right, And later officials would say that

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Speaker 1: the explosion was caused by a boiler, right, or what's

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Speaker 1: called the water to boiler, and that when this explosion occurred,

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Speaker 1: it occurred with such force that it did prove fatal,

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Speaker 1: but it did not prove some sort of premeditated action.

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Speaker 1: Most importantly, no one you know, snuck in and explosive.

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Speaker 1: Nobody snuck in under the cover of night and tinkered

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Speaker 1: with this boiler. But given the cultural ecology of the time,

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Speaker 1: it's completely understandable why people would think this, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially if we're looking at a community where as we

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Speaker 1: have already established distrust of authority figures is at a high,

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Speaker 1: a completely understandable and rational high. We also have to

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Speaker 1: consider what Chet, debt Linger, and Jet Pruved point out

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Speaker 1: in their book The List. This occurred against a backdrop

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Speaker 1: of brutal murders, horrific crimes that also appeared to target

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Speaker 1: minority popular nations. In the United States, there was the

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Speaker 1: shooting of the National Urban League President Vernon Jordan's in

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Speaker 1: Fort Wayne, Indiana, and in Buffalo, New York. Black cab

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Speaker 1: drivers were being murdered with their hearts literally cut out

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Speaker 1: of their chest. As you can hear on the footage show.

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Speaker 1: When you hear the explosions, the panic, the chaos, and

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Speaker 1: you already know that someone is targeting children, specific types

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Speaker 1: of children right, certain age range, right, and they may

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Speaker 1: even be your children. You feel powerless right in you

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Speaker 1: cling to a nature of explanation, right as that Luner

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Speaker 1: points out here when he was looking at the layout,

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Speaker 1: the mapping of this area Bowen Holmes fits into the

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Speaker 1: geographical region that he was looking at. He notes that

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Speaker 1: a boy who lived on the same street as the

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Speaker 1: daycare center later disappeared in a way that might have

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Speaker 1: and connected, in his opinion, with the murders. And additionally,

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Speaker 1: when a tragedy like this occurs, we hear rumors being

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Speaker 1: treated with the same regard as a fact. And in

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Speaker 1: den Lajers case is very by the book author an investigator.

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Speaker 1: In his case, he begins to notice things that trouble him.

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Speaker 1: One of the points was made by John Lewis, who

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Speaker 1: was then president of the Atlanta Cab Drivers Association. He

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Speaker 1: said he was appointed to a committee to calm public

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Speaker 1: alarm after this boiler explosion because people meet when the

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Speaker 1: explosion occurs, law enforcement pushes them away, gives medical care

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Speaker 1: to people, finds the deceased victims rent, and then later

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Speaker 1: that night there's another public gathering where people are saying,

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Speaker 1: why isn't anyone doing anything about this? So, in a

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Speaker 1: very real sense, at this time and place in history,

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Speaker 1: it feels as if there is not simply one Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: There's more than one Atlanta right there are at least two.

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Speaker 1: And the people who are encountering on top of this

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Speaker 1: murder epidemic explosions in places that are supposed to be

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Speaker 1: the safest place your kid could be. It feels like

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Speaker 1: there's another Atlanta in Atlanta that has safety for its citizens,

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta that has non antagonistic law enforcement in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: where people can walk at night without fear of a crime.

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Speaker 1: And this feels like a very different Atlanta when you're

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Speaker 1: around exploding daycares. So immediately after getting news of this explosion,

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Speaker 1: the mayor travels there in person, seeking to quell these fears.

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Speaker 1: This is not a bomb. Authorities assure me that while

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Speaker 1: a tragedy, this is entirely traceable to this water tube boiler.

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Speaker 1: The crowd is not buying this, and you can hear,

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Speaker 1: you can hear the fundamental anger, right, And there's always

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Speaker 1: a sense of betrayal that occurs in a tragedy. Right,

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Speaker 1: There's a part of there's a part of our our minds,

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Speaker 1: we could even say our souls that recognizes this is

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Speaker 1: not how things are supposed to be. And you are

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Speaker 1: the mayor, this is your job fix this, Explain this,

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Speaker 1: and if we don't believe the official explanation, then give

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Speaker 1: us what we see as the real one. There's a

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Speaker 1: book called Outbreak, The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary Social Behavior by

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Speaker 1: two authors, Hillary Evans and Robert Bartholomew. And this is

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Speaker 1: a reference work that compiles different examples of what we

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Speaker 1: would see as public panics. In the case of these

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Speaker 1: incidencies that the journalists have compiled, we see several commonalities,

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Speaker 1: and the number one commonality, regardless of anything else, right,

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Speaker 1: regardless of time space, socioeconomic actors, the number one problem

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Speaker 1: is the perceived lack of transparency. This becomes doubly frustrating

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Speaker 1: and difficult when there is an authority figure. The people

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Speaker 1: in this neighborhood played a large role in this mayor's election.

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Speaker 1: The mayor, regardless of how well perceived he might be,

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Speaker 1: is still functioning as an authority figure in a time

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Speaker 1: when authority figures are considered inherently untrustworthy. So when the

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Speaker 1: dust has settled and all of the immediate questions and

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Speaker 1: answers that can exist do exist, one of the more

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Speaker 1: terrifying things that occurs is you begin to wonder is

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Speaker 1: it just this one daycare center? If it's a boiler,

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Speaker 1: is it just this one boiler? How many other daycare

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Speaker 1: centers are here? How many other playgrounds, for example, haven't

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Speaker 1: been repaired in what decades? Where is the sewage line

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Speaker 1: that was supposed to be here? Why doesn't this infrastructure exist?

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Speaker 1: An interesting note that some people may recall, also in

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Speaker 1: Atlanta history, was the collapse of an interstate piece of

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Speaker 1: an interstate called I five. When this collapse, there was

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Speaker 1: an official story about a fire that was set by

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Speaker 1: people who didn't mean to burn down this concrete bridge.

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Speaker 1: But again, this becomes symbolic of a larger context. Right,

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Speaker 1: a lack of a lack of care for public goods. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's not Maybe it's not just this one day care.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's every daycare. Maybe it's every road in this

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Speaker 1: zip code. And we have to remember that Atlanta has

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Speaker 1: a provable and undeniable past of using local districting, even

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Speaker 1: unto the level of changing street names to denote the

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Speaker 1: two or more different Atlantis that exist culturally. And for

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Speaker 1: some people, I five falling was another example of this,

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Speaker 1: and even today you will find people who tell you

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Speaker 1: that the official story makes no sense. So it's tempting

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Speaker 1: for us as people to look at history as something

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Speaker 1: that is disconnected. Happened. Once we're done with it, we

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Speaker 1: can read about it if we want to. That could

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Speaker 1: not be further from the truth. History never leaves us,

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Speaker 1: and in the case of the Bowenhaus daycare Center, this

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Speaker 1: story continues. Yes, this tragedy occurs soon after the community

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Speaker 1: comes together and they rebuild the daycare center. It was

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Speaker 1: one of the most horrible tragedies Atlanta had ever seen,

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Speaker 1: but in time, attention turned towards making sure a tragedy

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Speaker 1: like this could never happen again. The state legislature past

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Speaker 1: new laws tightening up the requirements for boiler operation and

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Speaker 1: inspect and in May, the rebuilt Bowen Homes Community Center

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00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: was dedicated, a new and more modern boiler now in place.

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00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: There was optimism all around. So are these long standing

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Speaker 1: infrastructure problems actually fixed? The answer is no, because in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, the furnace explodes again, and ultimately

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00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine. In June of two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: the daycare center itself is demolished. The Atlanta Housing Authority

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Speaker 1: took a major step today to become the first major

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Speaker 1: city to tear down its public housing projects. Work has

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Speaker 1: officially started on tearing down Bowen Holmes. This was a

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Speaker 1: powerful and emotional day for many of the residents who

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Speaker 1: once lived in the bow and Holmes public housing complex.

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Speaker 1: But with that comes change and uncertain On reflection, there's

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Speaker 1: no question that this direction shot I hate to see

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Speaker 1: it go. It's a This is one of the all

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00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: this um tragics in in America. Sound it's kind of SATs.

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Speaker 1: These are perfect good apartments. It wouldn't's had nothing to renovate.

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Speaker 1: The spot may keeping going on, but they did whatever

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Speaker 1: they had to do to make sure that they got

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00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: this land and its profety. I mentioned the Omni in

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00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: previous episodes as a particularly significant site. Many victims were

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00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: last seen there were heading there. During our research, we

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00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: found an anonymous individual who claims Wayne Williams was hanging

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00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: around the Omni picking up known murdered children from this case.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately for us, the person's identity was concealed. He was

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00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: interviewed after Wayne was arrested, but before the trial started.

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00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: Here it is the interest in the complex has once

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00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: again been rekindled by this man, a songwriter who wishes

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00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: to remain anonymous. In a statement to the FBI, he

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00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: has told of Wayne Williams and Joseph Felt together at

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00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: a bucket studio. I remember Joe Joe because he came

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00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: in and he uh, he sang for a few you know,

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00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: he's sing a few tunes and he had a very

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00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 1: good voice. And I was asking Wayne what was he

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00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: gonna do it in Wayne said he was gonna sign

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00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: the guy to a contract immediately. He also tells of

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00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: times when he and Williams went to the Omni. Um

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Speaker 1: he said he was going so he can find some

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Speaker 1: more stars. Um. I went to the Omni with Lane

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Speaker 1: Um singing those most of kids they got new Wayne. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They all come up to him asking when they were

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Speaker 1: gonna do maybe do some record and the things of

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Speaker 1: that nature. Um I asked when how did he know

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00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: so many kids? He said they were his spies. They

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00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:11,479
Speaker 1: told him everything he wanted to know about everybody. Jason

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00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: from How Stuff Works and Meredith from our team here

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00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: at Tenderfoot sat down together to discuss the contents of

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00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: a night one US Weekly magazine, a double issue feature

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Speaker 1: on Wayne Williams. Wayne was arrested for the murders of

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Speaker 1: two black males, Nathaniel Cater and Jimmy ray Payne, that

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00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: same summer. Until January, Williams remained in custody awaiting his trial.

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Speaker 1: Before the trial began, while still in prison, Williams shocked

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00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: the country by giving an exclusive interview with US Weekly.

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00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: The interview itself infuriated the judge and police officials working

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Speaker 1: on the case. The main reason for today's order was

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Speaker 1: this magazine article to be released next week. We were

431
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: hud winked in align and I don't appreciate it. That,

432
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: of course, was the sheriff's reaction today the article. When

433
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: he and the judge in charge of the case read

434
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: it last night. They were both shocked, and sources say

435
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: Judge Clarence Cooper was outraged. For most of the morning.

436
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: They both sought out this woman defense attorney Mary Welcome.

437
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: Last night she told us she knew of the article

438
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: but would not say anymore. Well, today she did say

439
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: more to the judge and sheriff. Apparently the reporter of

440
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: freelance writer came into town the weekend of August two

441
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: and three. Today over the phone, Mickey Segal told me

442
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: she went along with miss Welcome to the jail. When

443
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: asked who she was, the reporter gave her name. Then

444
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 1: this Welcome said the woman was with her. No more

445
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: questions were asked by the jailers. Asked me, as Welcome,

446
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: did you tell him them that she was a newspaper report?

447
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: She said no, They didn't ask me, but again, I

448
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: didn't think it was necessary to ask a lawyer. Are

449
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: you doing something you knew? You know we're doing? Do

450
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: not allow us. Magazine paid the writer for the story,

451
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: which has a part two for a later issue, and

452
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: we've learned Homer Williams Wayne's father was paid three d

453
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: fifty dollars for the use of these family pictures. No

454
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: other money was reportedly paid for the story. The writer

455
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: now says she plans to write a book about the

456
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: Atlanta murders. The story is headlined on the cover, but

457
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: it's what is inside that is bound to raise a

458
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,959
Speaker 1: few hackles. Williams is highly critical of police conduct, beginning

459
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: with the night he was stopped and questioned on a

460
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: bridge over the Chattahoochee River. The two men he's charged

461
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: with killing were found a short time later in the river.

462
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: Williams caused the FBI keystone cops and compares Atlanta police

463
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: to Car fifty four. Where are You? He says he

464
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: is a scapegoat that somebody has to be caught because

465
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: of the federal and local money put into the investigation.

466
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: He told the writer, it's a matter of justifying money.

467
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: When you get all this money and you don't do

468
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: anything with it, people start to ask questions. At some

469
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: point you've got to answer for it. I feel that

470
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm the scapegoat. William said the FBI brought him in

471
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: for accusations and not questioning as they said. He said

472
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: they tried to pit him against his parents. He said

473
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: he was told his parents confessed he was part of

474
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: the child killings, and the article, Williams again said he

475
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: is innocent and even says he did not know the

476
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: two he is charged with killing, Nathaniel Cater and Jimmy

477
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: ray Paine. The magazine promises a second installment in the

478
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: interview they say was conducted at the jail. We'll hear

479
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: more about this later. This is Monica Kaufman. So this

480
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: is US Weekly, like the US Weekly we still see

481
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: in newsstands. Yeah, so I pull up the cover and

482
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: I certainly see a headline that says accused Atlantic killer

483
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: Wayne Williams tells his exclusive story. But I also see

484
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: headlines like how to Be Important by Ronald Reagan and

485
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: how to beat the s A T s He's become

486
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: a weird cultural I kind of guess on this one.

487
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: His name is up here, and if there's a picture

488
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: of Jackie Kennedy on the cover, and I mentioned of

489
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 1: Stevie next, so that kind of sets the stage for

490
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: what happened here. So reporter Mickey Siegel to gained access

491
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: to Wayne via Wayne's a turn Mary Welcome. So she

492
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: went into the prison where he was being housed awaiting

493
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: his trial, and she didn't tell the people at the

494
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: front gates that the person she had with her was

495
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: a reporter, and this caused a ton of outrage once

496
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: this was found out by the judge and the other

497
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: police officials, the fact that she did not identify the reporter.

498
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: So this is how it all started. So Mary Welcome

499
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: was Wayne's attorney, and she thought this was a good idea.

500
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: I don't know whose idea this was. I have a

501
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: feeling that in the midst of all the hubbub of

502
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: this pre trial kind of intensity and news, that most people,

503
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: probably including Wayne Williams, forgot about this interview because a

504
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: lot of what we've uncovered here seems to contradict a

505
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: lot of what we've heard on the podcast. But Wayne

506
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: willingly knew he was talking to a reporter. It seems like, yeah,

507
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: oh definitely. And the article actually kicks off in the

508
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: in this way. I just I find this fascinating and

509
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: we'll get into this. So sleeping in odd snatches, reading

510
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: book after book, watching TV endlessly, Wayne Bertram Williams sits

511
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: in Georgia's Fulton Countie jail. He's articulate and intelligent. His

512
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: i Q was one thirty six and he's known to

513
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: America as the accused Atlanta killer. Yeah, there always seems

514
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: to be a stress on exceptional intelligence. I'm trying to

515
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: understand where the narrative of Wayne being a super intelligent

516
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: person came from. We've heard numbers from one thirty six

517
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: to one fifty too, even from Wayne himself saying i

518
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: Q doesn't matter. This seems very questionable. As the first

519
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: thing in this article that we hear, there's a what

520
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: was photo of Wayne Williams um in his looks like

521
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: his living room. Photos of him also with his parents

522
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: down in the basement in the in the little radio

523
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: station studio. It looks like a normal childhood, looks like

524
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,959
Speaker 1: a normal childhood. All the photos are from H. C. Williams,

525
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: otherwise known as Homer Williams. That's Wayne's father, and depending

526
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: on the source, uh it says that Homer was paid

527
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: somewhere between three hundred and three thousand dollars for these photos.

528
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: This came at a time when Wayne's mother, Faye was

529
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: she had cancer and was going through a lot of

530
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,439
Speaker 1: things physically and frankly, they didn't have the money. WAYE.

531
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 1: Williams attorney Lynn Watley says that the family needed about

532
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: forty dollars to support this case. So what ended up

533
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 1: happening is the Williams family and some others formed a

534
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: legal defense fund called Injustice for All has a way

535
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: to raise funds or raise money for the trial, and

536
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: they raised ten dollars. Wow. If the trial lasts six

537
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: weeks as expected, it will cost the county more than

538
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: one hundred nine dollars in extra expenses. Most of that

539
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: money will be spent on housing and feeding the jury,

540
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: on transportation costs for Williams and Judge Cooper, for special

541
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: security equipment. Of course, the tab for all that will

542
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: be picked up by Fulton County taxpayers, but in the meantime,

543
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,959
Speaker 1: bills on the defense side are also mounting up. Every

544
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: day the trial goes on is like a huge cash register,

545
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: ringing up thousands of dollars and legal expenses, legal expenses

546
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: which may never be paid. Members of the defense team

547
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: have revealed that co counsels Mary Welcome and Alvin Binder,

548
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: and investigator Derwood Myers have spent well in excess of

549
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: fifteen thousand dollars of their own money on the Williams

550
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: case so far, mostly to bring fiber and pathological experts

551
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: to Atlanta for consultation. The trial has also been a

552
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: financial drain on William's parents, Homer and Faye Williams, are

553
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: retired school teachers. They say most of their savings have

554
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: been spent supporting their son's home radio station and his

555
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: musical promotion business. A recent highly controversial magazine interview in

556
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: which Wayne Williams caused the FBI Keystone cops netted the

557
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: family two thousand dollars, but lawyers say it will take

558
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: thousands more to defend Williams. They have launched a nationwide

559
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: appeal for money, trying to raise an immediate forty dollars.

560
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: The fact that you have so much, uh evidence that's

561
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 1: going to concern forensics, acoustical tests, fiber evidence, and it's

562
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: going to be necessary to employ experts in order to

563
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: effectively assist in Wayne Williams defense. And uh, obviously these

564
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: things are going to cost money. Six weeks ago, a

565
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: special legal defense fund was set up for Williams as

566
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: a nonprofit organization called and Justice for All, But today

567
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: it's organizers told me business has not been very good

568
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: at this time. We have received one ten dollar donation.

569
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: Why do you think people have been so reluctant to

570
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: give money. I think that in the mind of the

571
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: of the general public there is a a feeling that

572
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: we have the guilt demand and which means that they

573
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: have already convicted him. Where says his organization plans to

574
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: step up its appeal for funds for William's defense, but

575
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: many courthouse observers agree even if the money doesn't come

576
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 1: in now, future publishing opportunities for this famous trial may

577
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: more than make up the deficits someday. When you talk

578
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: about public sympathy and really where people were at at

579
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: this time, I think that is really telling as to

580
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: what the attitude was in the community. Um of this

581
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: guy being the guy no one was getting behind them.

582
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: It almost seems like public sympathy has increased longer we

583
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: become separated from the killings. Yeah, absolutely, that was my

584
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: action also, And do we know where this ten dollars

585
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: came from? No, we doubt it would be interesting, but

586
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: it was I think that was incredibly barrassing to have

587
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: show up on the television broadcast that that was as

588
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: far as that they had gotten. Frankly, this kind of

589
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,279
Speaker 1: media coverage and photos and videos and everything, it just

590
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: points to something that's been nagging at all of us

591
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: as we've gone through this process, and that is this

592
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: kind of constant obsession by the Williams family. And that's

593
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 1: that's both Wayne and Homer to be connected to the media.

594
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: One of the things I found from the book called

595
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: The List, authored by Chett Linger and Jeff Prue. Jeff

596
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: Prue was with the Los Angeles Times based here in Atlanta,

597
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: doing some of the reporting for for the l A Times,

598
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: and he's chat. He's chat linger Linger was both the

599
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: author of this book, but he was also part of

600
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 1: the defense team as a private investigator. As a private investigator,

601
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: and he was very much involved in questioning all the

602
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: details of the case, the patterns. Was there a pattern?

603
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: And should every one of the children that was on

604
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: the list be on the list? I'll read a quote here.

605
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: On May, Jeff Prue and I, along with a Los

606
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 1: Angeles Times photographer, went to the church where Jimmy Ray

607
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: Paine's funeral was in progress. Like many of the funerals,

608
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: it was a media circus throughout these cases. All the sobs,

609
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: the moans, the tears, the eulogies, even poems read by

610
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: bereaved schoolmates were caught in the glare of TV strobe

611
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: lights and hand held mini cams. A woman emerged from

612
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: the door of the small church during the funeral of

613
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: Jimmy ray Payne. Wailing uncontrollably. She swooned into the support

614
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: of arms of two men. They began to assist her.

615
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,280
Speaker 1: As she stumbled forward on rubbery legs into the wide,

616
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:46,919
Speaker 1: busy street. A photographer dashed towards her, his camera lens

617
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: only inches from her tearful face. Snapping pictures, he backpedaled

618
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: across the street, oblivious to the traffic flow. I would

619
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: see that same cameraman make like a broken field runner

620
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,959
Speaker 1: again on another street at another time. I also would

621
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: learn that he had taken photos on the stage of

622
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: the Sammy Davis Jr. Frank Sinatra benefit concert. For security reasons.

623
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: Only this one still photographer had been allowed on the

624
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: stage by arrangement with City Hall. Had the mourner of

625
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: Jimmy ray Paine known later who the photographer had been,

626
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: she probably would have had another strong reaction. I wonder

627
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: if to this day she knows so. The photographer that

628
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: was at Jimmy ray Paine's funeral, the one he's mentioning,

629
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: was the same one who's on stage that we've seen

630
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,959
Speaker 1: in those archive clips. That's right. So in the course

631
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: of our research, as you know in the two thousand

632
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: ten CNN documentary on the Atlanta child killer, who was

633
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 1: on stage Harmer Williams. That's right, he was the only one.

634
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: And what did Frank Sinatra say to him on stage?

635
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 1: You say, didn't he say something along the lines of

636
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: like who let this guy up here? He kind of

637
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 1: like shamed him for the only one that wasn't wearing

638
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,800
Speaker 1: a top, wasn't wearing a right, So check det Lander

639
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: doesn't come round, he doesn't come out and say Homer

640
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: Williams at all. But when you put the connect the

641
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: dots and put two and two together, you see the

642
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: connection between Homer Williams um at Jimmy ray Paine's funeral

643
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: and at the benefit concert. And it does seem like

644
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: a really odd coincidence to have the father of the

645
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,919
Speaker 1: man convicted as the landed child murder be at funerals,

646
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: be on stage of a benefit to raise money to

647
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: find the serial killer. I mean, we did see, like

648
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: in the FBI profile that this would be someone who

649
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: would be close. So what are the chances that it

650
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: would be the convicted person's father. All right, So let's

651
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: get into a little bit of the Q and A

652
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: with Wayne done in prison. Yes, some of the narrative

653
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: from Mickey Seagal says interviewed at the jail, he appears sure, order,

654
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: more frail, and a little bit pudgier than expected. He

655
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: peppers his sentences with phrases like let me say this,

656
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: and you've got to understand, as to be very precise,

657
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: or to distance himself from what he's saying. In addition,

658
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: the phrase being in control comes up several times in

659
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: our talks. Though he denies it, this appears very important

660
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: to him. Wow, that's spot on. You've got to understand.

661
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you and I have both heard the interviews.

662
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: He still says that I could hear Wayne's voice as

663
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: I read this. And what's the other catchphrase? It was,

664
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: let me say this, and you've got to understand, you

665
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: really grip whoever he's talking to. That's a control thing.

666
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,959
Speaker 1: Control in the narrative, just like having the reporter come

667
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: to the prison to be able to give this interview

668
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: in the way that they wanted to release it. The

669
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 1: control of the actual story contents itself really comes out here. Um.

670
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: Next up, he actually is asked what happened that night

671
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: on the ridge, and uh, he says he was scared.

672
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: He says he was shaking, and then he says, well,

673
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: let me say this. When they stopped me, I had

674
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: no idea why. Two or three hours later, towards the

675
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: end of the questioning, I began to put two and

676
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: two together. I mean, that's a different story than what

677
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,720
Speaker 1: we've heard when we asked for FBI agent Mike Macomis's account.

678
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: Macomis says, as soon as he pulled him over way,

679
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: Williams said, this is about those kids, isn't it? Or

680
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: this is about those children, isn't it. That's two different stories.

681
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: You can either say you were blindsided and had no

682
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: idea in shaking with fear, or you can say, at

683
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: least what we've heard today from Wayne, and that's I

684
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: was totally in control. I was calm and collected. I

685
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: knew exactly what it was, and I wasn't a bit worried.

686
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: And those are very different accounts. I don't know if

687
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: that's hindsight bias or if it's a lying. He's he's

688
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: asked about the press conference. He said I would never

689
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: have said anything publicly if the story hadn't already come out.

690
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: It was linked to the media that I've been arrested

691
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: on a ten count murder indictment, and no such thing

692
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: had been done. The Atlanta newspapers and several other national

693
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: papers had already used my name address everything. The New

694
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: York Post even printed Atlanta monster killer seized. I feared recrimination.

695
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: I called the conference because I didn't want two people

696
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: coming out and attacking me in my home. At the

697
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: end of the day, it ended up backfiring because the

698
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 1: media perched outside his house anyway, and it ended up

699
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: being a bigger media circus. He's asked, are you guilty?

700
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: He said, no, I am not guilty. Did you have

701
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: anything to do with Cater or Pain I didn't even

702
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: know them. No. Is emphasized here, have you ever known

703
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: any of the others? Have you had them in your

704
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: singing room? Talking about Gemini? Have you had any of

705
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: them in your home? And he says nope, never. I mean,

706
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: there's just the constant questions which comes up about if

707
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 1: he's had a girlfriend before and his acquaintances. But this

708
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: was a constant focus of the media and of of

709
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: the various agents to ask him because they were really

710
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: looking for a pattern. Right here talking about having a

711
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: girlfriend and having any romantic ties. I think that's important

712
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: because of um his alibi. He says he's looking for

713
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: Cheryl Johnson that night at two am. And even Richard Brackliffe,

714
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: the polygrapher, he asked him, you know, why would you

715
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: be going to a woman's house at two am, And

716
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: he says Wayne's told him, or at least Richard's account.

717
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: Wayne said I'm not homosexual, and He's like, well, I

718
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: wasn't suggesting that. So it seems like it's always been

719
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: a question on people's minds, maybe from that moment. I

720
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: don't know where it originated. So he's very explicit here.

721
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 1: He says, I have gone out with women, some married,

722
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: some single. Yes I do see ladies, and yes I

723
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: do date. So he's very firm in making sure that

724
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: that point came across. So that's part one of the

725
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: interview that was October eighty one. People had to wait

726
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: two weeks for the next issue to come out oct

727
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: The kind of primary focus initially on this this interview

728
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: is actually with Faye Williams, Wayne's mother, and she was

729
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: battling cancer, high blood pressure. She was sixty six and

730
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: had gone through a lot and had just recently retired

731
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: from being an educator or a school teacher. And she

732
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: was certainly very frightened for Wayne and what had happened.

733
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: It was very devastating for their family. Both Wayne's parents,

734
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: Homer and Faye, were older when they had Wayne. Uh,

735
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: and this is pretty devastating to them. See, he has

736
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: been tried and miss well say, he has visually been

737
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: convicted long before bad the media. We had no savings

738
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: in anything, and what a little bit we had due

739
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: to my illness in this case, that's depleting. So it's

740
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: been mental and it's been on financial string. Oh my,

741
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: and I think the physical stren also because she is

742
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: suffer with the high blood pressure recently and actually had

743
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: me stuff with it. They didn't have and don't have

744
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: enough evidence. I don't to indicted, but to the rest,

745
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: I'd just like to give them a one and that

746
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: where they believe it or not. The killer is still

747
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: at large. He's out there. So this is the question

748
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: that Mickey Seagull asked to resume part two of the interview,

749
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: the discussion around dog hair as we know Wayne had

750
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 1: a German shepherd. This is Wayne's reply. He says, how

751
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: many dogs are there in Atlanta? And how many different

752
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: kinds of dogs have they talked about? They're looking for

753
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: a dog that has a top coat and an undercoat

754
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: that fits Mala Mutes College's Huskies St Bernard, some Spaniels,

755
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 1: and a German shepherd which I have. Anyhow, a dog

756
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: hair is a dog hair. I took a hair from

757
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: one dog and a hair from my present dog and

758
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: couldn't distinguish the difference under a microscope. And the reporter asked,

759
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 1: why did you do that? And he replied, after that,

760
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: after the case came down, I got curious about it.

761
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,439
Speaker 1: So let me just pause there for a second. So

762
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 1: Wayne's pulling out the microscope in his home to do

763
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: his own scientific breakdown of the evidence, staying ahead of

764
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: the story for sure. Oh yeah, this is right in

765
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 1: line with what Richard Rackliff had said about them finding

766
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: a book in his house about how to pass a

767
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: polygraph test or what are the inner workings of a

768
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: polygraph test. He seems very closely following something, more closely

769
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: than the average person would. So when the reporter asked

770
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: didn't you receive several science awards in school? Wayne answers

771
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: at first. But I made a change when I got

772
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: to high school, a very significant change. Until then, I

773
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 1: was Mr Academia, you teacher's pet. But in the eighth

774
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: grade that changed drastically, and my home relations changed quite

775
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: a bit. I became more of an assertive person. My

776
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: father and I had disagreements over how much trust he

777
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 1: put in me. We had plenty of arguments over the car.

778
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: I don't drink, but one weekend I got completely wasted,

779
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: completely drunk, and my relationship with my father got much worse.

780
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: He was pushing me for an education, but I had

781
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: only applied myself in school when I had to because

782
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: I had my radio station by them. Correct me if

783
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, But it almost sounds like he's trying to

784
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: distance himself from the intelligent, for lack of better word,

785
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: dorky kind of image he was he was given and

786
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: almost sound like a cool and rebellious and he's using that.

787
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: He's using the media as a platform, is what it

788
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: sounds like, to further the vision he wants of himself.

789
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: One of the questions that kind of was on everyone's

790
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: mind is with so many kids having gone missing and

791
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: many of them showing up murder. Of course, um his

792
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: connection to adolescence. UM that were involved in the in

793
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: the music business with him, and the question was really

794
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 1: asked of him, didn't your dealings with adolescence make you

795
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: a suspect? And he said, I always let the authorities

796
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: know what I was doing in November, specifically because of

797
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: the murders. I even called the Task Force to let

798
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: them know i'd be out auditioning children. And when he

799
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: was asked, why do you feel you had to do that,

800
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: he responded, so there wouldn't be any problems later. You

801
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 1: don't go around talking to kids in the streets of

802
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: Atlanta because everything gets reported. You don't understand what this

803
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 1: city was like. I had contact with the Task Force

804
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: three times before I was ever questioned. Then he was asked,

805
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: why did you contact them the other two times? And

806
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: he replied, I can't talk about that. So this is new.

807
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: This is nothing we've heard before, this story of him

808
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: reaching out to the Task Force, and frankly, nothing from

809
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 1: the Task Force that says that this was ever logged,

810
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: because they really didn't know who he was until they

811
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 1: caught him on the Bridge. Yeah. I wonder how many

812
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: people were proactively reaching out to the Task Force to

813
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: tell them they would be interacting with children. It seems

814
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: like another getting close to the case, you know, for

815
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: the sake of getting close to the case. Yeah. So

816
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: this entire you know, a couple of week interview um

817
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: segment that ran on US weekly was really an incredible

818
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,800
Speaker 1: fine that we we've passed this around the office, We've

819
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: not known what to do with it. It feels like

820
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: such a an isolated, stand alone type of interview and

821
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: also incredibly unusual that it was really the only thing

822
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: that was coming out between his arrest and the trial.

823
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 1: I don't I almost don't know what to make of

824
00:52:57,960 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 1: it still, and it's odd that it was almost smug

825
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: gold in by his own lawyer, this opportunity to be

826
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: in such a pop culture magazine with like almost a

827
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: emphasis on like celebrity and luxury, and here's a Wayne

828
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,799
Speaker 1: Williams interview twenty three year old Wayne Williams biding his

829
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,479
Speaker 1: time in jail. Yeah. And I think it also points

830
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: to the fact that there's so many occasions during the

831
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: course of thirty five to forty years where you hear

832
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,959
Speaker 1: different versions of the same thing. And I think maybe

833
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: that's where we should leave this is as we've uncovered

834
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 1: things in the archives, we've just found that there is

835
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: no single story that has maintained its um kind of

836
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 1: its essence as the bible of this is exactly what happened.

837
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 1: Um And I'm not just talking about Wayne Williams. I'm

838
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 1: talking about um FBI agents. I'm talking about police officers

839
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 1: who they get most of the details right, but their

840
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: recall of everything that happened so many years later has

841
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: differed absolutely every time, a different story. Yeah, and and

842
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 1: so what's difficult here is what is the motivation behind that?

843
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: Is their motivation? Is it forgetfulness? Is it changing the

844
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: narrative to be most convenient. Those are the kind of

845
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: questions I think that we continue to ask ourselves as

846
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 1: we get into the archives and kind of look at

847
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: the vault. One of the most unusual stories we've heard

848
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: so far is this one. It involves a woman and

849
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 1: her husband driving through a cemetery and witnessing a struggle

850
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 1: between a man and a young black child. But despite

851
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: being on television and being submitted to the task force,

852
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: this story never seemed to lead anywhere. There is a

853
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 1: Soft View Cemetery off Johnsboro Road in southeast Atlanta. The

854
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 1: Clayton County woman and her husband are not identifying because

855
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: if they did see the killers, we don't want them

856
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: to have a way of tracing them. The Clayton County

857
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: woman and her husband were driving on this narrow cemetery

858
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: road when they saw a green car coming straight at

859
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 1: them at a high rate of speed. Her husband swerved

860
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 1: to the side to get out of the way. They

861
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: say they've reported it to the task Force by phone,

862
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: but the task Force hasn't got back to them for

863
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: an imperson interview. The driver was tawel and he's light colored,

864
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: a light colored black man. And the other one, uh

865
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 1: was dark or black and he had on a wig.

866
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: It was a rudish brown. I know it was a

867
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: week because it was he was losing it because it

868
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: was a child in the front struggling. He was struggling

869
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: with that child. But he had broad shoulders, but his

870
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: head came about like man, so he would be back

871
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: in my henight. But the other one was towel was

872
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 1: he had almost touched the roof. But I know it

873
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: was a wig because it was coupling off. You're sure

874
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,759
Speaker 1: you saw a child, and yes, yes, I saw because

875
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,399
Speaker 1: it was just back and forth like that, and they're

876
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 1: like that was trying to hang on to that child.

877
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 1: It was a boy between the ages of the baton

878
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: and trial, and he had a short haircut. Do you

879
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: think you could identified these two? Many yes, and the

880
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: one with the wig hand on glasses I could identify.

881
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 1: We hope this gave you a feel for just how

882
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 1: many stories are out there and why this case is

883
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 1: just so hard to untangle. Lastly, we'd like to play

884
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: you a song that the Atlanta officials promoted in the

885
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: wake of the poor pr the city was facing. The

886
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 1: song is called Let's Keep Pulling Together, Atlanta and was

887
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,240
Speaker 1: broadcasted throughout the city. The video features black and white

888
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:06,240
Speaker 1: citizens standing side by side and pulling a never ending rope,

889
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 1: glossing over the obvious racial tension at the time. It's

890
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,240
Speaker 1: not hard to imagine that it wasn't entirely well received.

891
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: You decide, we'll leave you with this. Thanks for listening

892
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: to the first episode of The Vault, and be sure

893
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 1: to tune in next Friday for episode eight. See you

894
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: next week. SA showing Sky