1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:03,199 Speaker 1: Gampsite Media. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 2: Larry Ortiz was a lot of things to a lot 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 2: of different people. He was a father, a husband, a friend, 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 2: a brother, but he was also an ex khan, a 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 2: drug dealer, and a gang member. On this bonus episode 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 2: of The Brothers Orties, we're talking with an expert who 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: can help contextualize that last part of Larry's identity. A chairman, 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: a shot caller for Tango Blast. Mike Tapia, a sociologist 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 2: at Texas A and M Commerce, has been studying gangs 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: for more than a decade. He never met Larry Ortiz, 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: but he's met a lot of people like Larry. I 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 2: sat down with him to talk about the origins of 13 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 2: prison gangs, the current landscape, and the inner workings of 14 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 2: groups like Tango Blast. Take a listen. Just tell us 15 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: who you are, your interest, your affiliations, and obviously your name. 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: My name is Mike Tapia. I'm an Associate professor of 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: Criminal Justice at Texas A and M Commerce. I'm a criminologist. 18 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: I'm a sociologist by training who studies nothing but crime 19 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: pretty much almost exclusively. I'm known, i would say, first 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: and foremost in my field as a gang expert of sorts, 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: particularly in Texas and particularly with prison gangs. I do 22 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 1: focus on Chicano prison gangs and Chicano gangs of all stripes, 23 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: that's to say, Mexican American gangs. And my latest research 24 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: pursuits are with drug cartels and violence spillover on the 25 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: Texas Mexico border. 26 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: So when we first told you about this story about 27 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: Game and Larry, these two brothers end up doing very 28 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 2: well for themselves on different sides of the law, you 29 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 2: weren't terribly surprised by that. 30 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 3: Is it accurate? 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't. There are many such tales that I collected, 32 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: similar in nature from San Antonio in a book I 33 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: wrote that published in twenty seventeen, and it's one hundred 34 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: year you know, historiography of Chicano gangs in that city. 35 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: You know, especially when you study history, there are so 36 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: many things that come out of the woodwork in that regard, 37 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: and a lot of them are strikingly similar to this 38 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 1: story here. 39 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: Is there a thread that runs through these sort of 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: black in a better term, good brother bad brother stories? 41 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 2: Or is it just you know, there's so many brothers 42 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: in the world, so are we going to turn out 43 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: like this? 44 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: I think you know, it's just the age old adage 45 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: about a black sheep from an otherwise good, traditional Mexican 46 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: American working class family. I think that scenario gets played 47 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: out quite a bit. I mean, it's also probably about 48 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: how close any of us ever really thinks or feels 49 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: we might be to the criminal element, and some of 50 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: us are positioned in the social world to be closer 51 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: than others. And you know, so, yeah, I think there's 52 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: access sometimes opens up for certain people, and sometimes they 53 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: walk through that door. 54 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: Can we rewind them a little bit for just a 55 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: little bit of a history lesson when did prison gangs 56 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 2: become a. 57 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: Force in Texas in the early eighties? 58 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 3: Can you walk us through it? Wheter it start with? Why? 59 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: Yeah? And it really surprisingly hasn't changed much in terms 60 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: of their structure and norms to this day. Folks gravitate toward, 61 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, others that are similar to themselves, right, And 62 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: so one really important marker there is geography. Where are 63 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: you from? Is so fundamental and important to the social 64 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: sphere in prison, right in state prison in particular, And 65 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: so guys click up on that basis and they go 66 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: to war against each other for fighting for meager resources 67 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: and so on, competition for the drug trade and controlling 68 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: the illicit things that happen in prison. So it's kind 69 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: of a microcosm of the outside world, if you will. 70 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: There's also a pretty important I think it's as important 71 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: to note the structure of the prison itself. How Texas 72 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: in particular managed, you know, this large group of unruly men, 73 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: and the system that they devised. It's a crappy job 74 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: to be a correctional officer. The standards are pretty low 75 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: to get in, the pay sucks, and it's a thankless job. 76 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: It's a be a very dangerous position. And so one 77 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: way to control populations in prison is to let them 78 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: police themselves, and sort of sort of a social Darwinism 79 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: kicks in, and so those that emerge as leaders, as charismatic, 80 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: as strong physically and intimidating, get some responsibility. They're offered 81 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: responsibility to sort of manage help the guards man and 82 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: wardens and so forth, manage populations and keep people in line. 83 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 1: So the State Supreme Court of Texas made that practice illegal, 84 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: and so they told prison prison administrators, you can't keep 85 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: letting inmates police their own kind. You know. It's called 86 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: the turnkey system. And these guys had keys, you know, 87 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: they had access to different parts of the prison and everything. 88 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: So they were, for all practical purposes, unpaid employees, you know, 89 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: of the prison who got certain benefits. 90 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 3: So when did this turnkey system start? 91 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: Oh, I'd say that it's probably always been there. It 92 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: seems like just to be part of the nature of 93 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: the beast of locking people up. I mean, it's it's 94 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: almost impossible to diminish it or make it obsolete, you know, 95 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: just because of the very nature of being locked up 96 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: with other individuals, some strong leader will emerge. Now they 97 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: call it a pod dog, right, and so that's a 98 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: big part of how and why these groups form, you know, 99 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: just political you know, mycracosms in the penitentiary. 100 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: So actually, so you covered my next question. Despite whatever 101 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: the Texas Supreme Court might have ruled, is it even 102 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: possible to make this system go away? 103 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 3: No? 104 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean they also ruled that it's illegal to group 105 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: inmates on the basis of race. But there again, you know, 106 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: that will never go away, and that is another strong 107 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: basis that I shouldn't leave that out. I would even 108 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: say that that probably is one of the primary reasons 109 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: that prison gangs did form also is for self protection 110 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: and preservation for racial conflict reasons, you know, blacks against 111 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: whites against Mexicans essentially in Texas prisons, can you. 112 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: Give us sort of the geography of the current situation, 113 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 2: I mean, what are the big gangs, what's moving around, 114 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 2: Who's who's prevalent? 115 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: Now sure they're they're nucleus is some you know, some 116 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: Texas city right Texas syndicate. Traditionally home base is Austin, 117 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: Texas right to some extent, also Houston and that that 118 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: has evolved in that way as well. Uh, San Antonio 119 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: has always been Texas Mexican mafia, El Paso has been 120 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: Barrio Astecca, and there are others that kind of file 121 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: in in between with less tied to geography. But you 122 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: know they're like the the forty fives from the Laredo 123 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: area that that makes reference to a forty five caliber 124 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: hand done right. So there there are other like lesser 125 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: known you know, prison gangs that by administration are still 126 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: you know, considered what they call security threat groups. You know, 127 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: there is a hierarchy in prisons in the gang world, 128 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: with prison gangs per se being on top for most 129 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: of the past you know, forty years, will say, roughly 130 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: since since their inception right in the eighties. And so 131 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: right underneath that highest status are folks that are just 132 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: sympathetic to the cause, maybe a younger generation who were 133 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: street gang members and who just sort of do the dirt, 134 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: if you will, of the larger prison gangs with the 135 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: hope that you know, they would get selected for full 136 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: on membership at some point if they prove their loyalty. 137 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: And so those are what's known as tangos, right. So 138 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: thango is this term that's been used pretty much since 139 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: the inception of prison gangs, and it's just basically backup 140 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: to the extent that prison gangs are, but the tango 141 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: structure just lies right beneath that layer. And sometimes the 142 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: most capable amongst them, you know, would be called up 143 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: to the big leagues. You know, there's a baseball analogy there, 144 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: you know, with the minor leagues and the big leagues. 145 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: And so somebody's number gets called up and they put 146 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: in enough work, as it were, do enough dirt in 147 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: the name of the further into the gangs, you know, 148 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: whatever its businesses. And so that's the structure that I 149 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: think that Larry fit into and he was old enough 150 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: to be part of probably that junior structure when he 151 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: was first incarcerated, and so yeah, he would have fallen 152 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: in Line Houston being Dongo Blast and probably answering at 153 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: some point to the Texas syndicate. But just because prison 154 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: gangs originate and have a home base, you know, in 155 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: a large Texas city in particular, it doesn't mean that 156 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: the prison system doesn't shuffle them around the state and 157 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: that they don't find each other. So there are probably 158 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: there are probably smatterings of every gang in every prison 159 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: in Texas. But amongst the prisoners, it's always known who 160 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: runs that joint, Who's canton is this, which basically means 161 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: whose house is this right? And so different prison units 162 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: and there's so many, you know, dozens of prison units 163 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: across Texas. There is a primary gang that who's canton 164 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: that is right, And there's always a leader, you know, 165 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: Gayo Mayord, you know, like the big Rooster. I mean, 166 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: you know, there's all this whole terminology that goes with it. 167 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's the basic structure and that I 168 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: think that that Larry filtered into at some point he. 169 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 2: Was a I'm probably gonna mispronounce it a silla. 170 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, so he was. It's like a pod dog. 171 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: That's that's really it's a synonym for it, you know. 172 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: It's it's somebody who yeah, calls shots you know, inside 173 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: And I really don't know if that translates to the 174 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: outside world. I assume that I never asked that question 175 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: of any of the guys I, you know, studied or 176 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: spent time with. But I would assume that it probably, 177 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: you know, carries some weight in the outside world as well. 178 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 3: What would it mean on the inside. 179 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: World, Yeah, I mean everything a shot collar does pretty 180 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: much racks up a lot of the profits from drug sales, coordinates, 181 00:12:54,360 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: those things, you know, discipline The gangs incarcer settings are 182 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: real quick to punish their own for transgressions and for 183 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: not rising to the occasion when called upon. All these 184 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: things that happened that the CIA you know, controls is 185 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: they call it disciplina, you know. And you know there's 186 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: an old terminol. You know, if you don't have enough quorra, 187 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: which is you know Spanish for short for coas on right, 188 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: if you don't have heart for the gang and you 189 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: don't show it when called upon to do so, to 190 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: go steal something or beat somebody up, or you know, 191 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: go deliver this dope or you know, whatever it is, 192 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: then there's gonna be consequences to pay. So yeah, the 193 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 1: CIA pretty much coordinates and controls all that and probably 194 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: has other right hand people to help with that stuff 195 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: as well. 196 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 2: So when Gab was telling us about this, she made 197 00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: it sound basically like that, but there were a few differences. 198 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: He was telling us that the Tongo's, unlike. 199 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 4: Aryan Brotherhood, Texas Syndicate isn't a blood in, blood out 200 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 4: organization that you can be a Tongo while you're in 201 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 4: prison and then come out rehabilitated, go back to your 202 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 4: civilian life. 203 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: That's correct, and it's evolved to that point. So at 204 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: some point the Tongos became so numerous. They're the younger generation. 205 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: We had an incarceration binge in Texas. People were going 206 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: to prison for every thing under the sun. Texas is 207 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: in Nalem and Jalem State, you know, real hardcore law 208 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: and order place known not to be shy about incarceration 209 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: by any means. And so with that critical mass of 210 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: young guys, the economy of Texas being what it is, 211 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: job opportunities, the educational system, so on and so forth, 212 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: all these things that are thought to contribute to children 213 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: turning wayward and going to the streets instead. Well, yeah, 214 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: guess what, you know, you're gonna have a critical mass 215 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: of these street wise kids entering prison and at some 216 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: point realizing their potential and saying, why are we taking 217 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: this stuff from these from these guys? You know, these 218 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: guys are so old fashioned, you know. So it's sort 219 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: of like a like just just the age old tale 220 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: of a younger generation coming of age and saying we're 221 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: not going to take it anymore, you know. And it 222 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: was sort of a defensive posture at first, because that's 223 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: a pretty gutsy move, you know, and for younger guys 224 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: that are not as criminally embedded, if you will, or 225 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: not not as sophisticated as the older guys in the 226 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: ways of the joint, it was pretty clumsy at first, 227 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: but they eventually got some internal structure and they decided 228 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: instead of being hierarchical and strict about membership and rules 229 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: and it was it was designed from the inception as 230 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: being very loose, you know, was meant to be like, 231 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: come in here, where your protection society? While you're here 232 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: when it's time for you to bounce out of here, 233 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: you go back to your regular life. You know, we 234 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: don't have you know, exactly like you said, the blood in, 235 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: blood out of But as with all things, you know, 236 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: that defensive posture will evolve into an offensive one and 237 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: we'll start to compete with these prison gangs as these 238 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: guys age out, and so yeah, it's just a matter 239 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: of the younger generation evolving taking over, becoming more numerous, 240 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: and so yeah, Larry would have been right in that 241 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: age to see all that stuff, you know, all those 242 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: things that happen in prison bleed out to the street. 243 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: At that point it becomes a personal choice. I think 244 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: you're not beholden to the tango anymore. You don't have 245 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 1: to have any loyalty to it out on the street. 246 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: But those opportunities doing exists if you so choose. And 247 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: people do eventually mature out of the street life and 248 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 1: the gang life as well, because they want to see 249 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: their grand kids grow up and stuff like just like 250 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: you and me, you know. 251 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: So was something like the tongos? Was there sort of 252 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 2: a rival and evolution is someone who studies this is it? 253 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: Are they a less benign force in the grand scheme 254 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: of prison, whether the tango is a good thing or 255 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: a bad thing, their their evolution and development. 256 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the Texas Department of Public Safety has 257 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: a Gang Security Threat Report that it puts out every year. 258 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: As someone who studies gangs, it you know, the lens 259 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: through which they you know, see is very narrow, very limited. 260 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: So they have placed Dongo Blast, for example, super high 261 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: on the threat list for law enforcement. Dongo Blast they've 262 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: become one of the big boys. You know, they are 263 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: probably Houston's primary prison gang. They've since you know, sort 264 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: of pushed out the old guard. But yeah, when I 265 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: see news headlines these days about you know, what makes 266 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: the news about inner city crime and stuff, it's usually 267 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: Dogo guys that are and they're already in you know, 268 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: in our age. You know, they're they're up in age 269 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: because they've been around for a while, and yeah, they've 270 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: sort of evolved into shot callers and stuff. They probably 271 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time going in and out of jail, 272 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: in prison, and so you know, they really never leave 273 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: that life. You know, they've they sort of adopted it 274 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 1: and so on. So yeah, I think it's probably fair 275 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: to say that Dogo is the new game in town 276 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: for Texas criminals. 277 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 2: So back to Larry after So when he was a kid, 278 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 2: he started his likely to pretend gang. They saw this 279 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: movie called South Central, which actually pretty good, and they 280 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: decided to start their own. 281 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 3: Gang called Deuce. But they were like eleven. 282 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: But after that, when Larry, you know, started making money, 283 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: these guys were claiming to be crips. So the crips 284 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 2: really have an outlet or a branch wherever a Brazoria 285 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 2: county or name. 286 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: It's hard to tell, but I'm sure that someone didn't 287 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: fly in from Compton and say I'm going to set 288 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: up a chapter of the Crips, you know here in Brazoria. 289 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, no, by the time that Larry was out 290 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: in the streets doing their thing, there was a lot 291 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: of copycat stuff going on. You know, gang culture had 292 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: sort of swept the nation, but it was kind of 293 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: a popular fab and for street kids that don't have 294 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: a lot to do. If America is not investing in 295 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: its inner cities, you know, with Little League Baseball and 296 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 1: you know, as those things go away, well kids are 297 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: going to fill in the gaps with other stuff and 298 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: they get creative with it. I did a study in Indianapolis, 299 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: for example, because I went to a graduate school at 300 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: Ohio State, and so this was in the early two thousands. Right. 301 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: What I saw as a student of crime at the 302 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: time were scrawlings on the wall in these places in 303 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: the Midwest, pretty far from the Southwest, right, like Serenno thirteen, 304 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: one of the most popular, you know, California based, La 305 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: based gangs that have pretty much spread to every major 306 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: city in the United States. But the Latino population was 307 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: so small in these places, right that I was like, 308 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: can that be real? Can this happen? Is it a 309 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: franchising of sorts or is it just copycat? Are there 310 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: drug markets to be cornered here and there is expansion? 311 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: You know? 312 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: That was my research question, right, So I set out, 313 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: got some money from the NSF and got this study 314 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: funded up there to try to find out, you know, 315 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: started writing with cops and they would take me to 316 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: these gang members' homes to interview them, you know about Okay, 317 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: so like, where are y'all's roots, you know, where are 318 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: your origins? Why are you claiming a gang that exists 319 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: in Houston and San Antonio and in the southwestern large cities, 320 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: Like are you all really here. You know, eighteenth Street 321 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: MS thirteen, like every brand name that you'd ever heard 322 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 1: of in the gang world, right was present. And it 323 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 1: didn't take me long to like crack that world and 324 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: gain some entry and kind of see it for myself. 325 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: And I published papers on it and everything, and it 326 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: never really fully answered. It's always, you know, the answer 327 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: is always somewhere in the middle. It's always a little 328 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: bit of both. Right, there is you know there that 329 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: that knows something that brought from third Ward Houston. You know, 330 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: his uncle was a real crip somewhere he moved from 331 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: La or whatever, and and then it just those kind 332 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 1: of cultural norms sort of get passed on and the 333 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: knowledge you need to be a crip and how to 334 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: do the crypt walk and you know how to you know, 335 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: all their norms and stuff. And so yeah, it's just 336 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: pop culture. 337 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: I don't nobody's got a crystal ball. But do you 338 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: see any major changes coming? Your gang is gonna go away. 339 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: They got to take more power. They think it bigger, 340 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 2: they think it's smaller. Is it's just going to be 341 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: more the same? How's that for a question? 342 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: Sure, No, it's it's a it's a valid one. And 343 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: I contend, and most of the stuff that I've written 344 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: that street gangs as we've known them for so long 345 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: in American cities and so forth, have gone by the wayside. 346 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: This has a lot to do with the rise in technology, 347 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: the methods that kids use, what they spend their days doing. 348 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: Now we have these like sort of social media gang 349 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: bangers who don't hardly ever go to the street. To 350 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: put it this way, you know, gangs of old used 351 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: to posture literally on street corners, right they occupied turf 352 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: within the city, whether they claim that street corner as 353 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: their place to sell drugs, run girls, you know, fight 354 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: other approximate groups. You know. That harkens back to like, 355 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, nineteen fifties sort of urban gang lore. Law 356 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: enforcement has also cracked down on gangs. In the nineties, 357 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: gang units, if you will, gang task forces and such 358 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: were pretty rare. But as the social problem grew, then 359 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 1: law enforcement responded accordingly and started forming all these specialized units. 360 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: And so common sense also evolved to adapt to that 361 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: and say, we can't be putting ourselves out on the 362 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: street literally, you know, we have to do things a 363 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: little smarter, stay behind doors, use technology to continue our 364 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: craft and you know, so it has changed in that 365 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: regard and kids don't really like you know, bloods and 366 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: crypts we used to hear in urban myth and this 367 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: is probably pretty true. At some point, you know, they 368 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: used to shoot each other over colors. They were shooting 369 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: complete strangers based on their affiliations. In larger cities, groups 370 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: used to get around and sort of migrate and travel 371 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: across the city and just go wild and go on 372 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: theft and violence, binges and so on, and just go 373 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: around like looking for targets and stuff. I mean, that 374 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: probably was a very very short period in American you know, 375 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: urban history, and was just not sustained. Gangs are often 376 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: misconstrued as like being these wild thugs run a muck, 377 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: you know, just vandalizing stuff. But they're they're a little 378 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,239 Speaker 1: bit more proposive, and they do sort of evolve, you know, 379 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: with with their surroundings, you know that including technology, and 380 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: so I ventured that, you know, gangs, their common sense 381 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: did evolve as well, and they realized this, this is 382 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: pretty foolish. You know, you can go away for a 383 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: long time for pulling the trigger on somebody you don't know. 384 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: It's sort of become a lot more local, a lot 385 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: more utilitarian in terms of their criminal activities. It's all 386 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: about money. You know, a lot of gangsters you see 387 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: these days with with you know, whereas you might have 388 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: seen like loyalty affiliation type tattoos and stuff, which we 389 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: still have. Right, people want you to know who, you know, 390 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: who they're down with. But the young youngsters they put 391 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: stuff like moe, you know, money over everything, you know, 392 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: sort of the mantra that like the only color that 393 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: batters here is green. You know, they make affiliations with 394 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: unlikely others. If you look at census data, you know 395 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: that that race category called two or more races, you know, mixed, right, 396 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: that that group of society, mixed race people is really growing. 397 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: And so with urban dysfunction and poverty and everything being 398 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: what it is, people filter into those social classes regardless 399 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: of what race they are, and their kids join gangs, 400 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, your kids claiming tango and 401 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: he's half black, he's half white because you live in Houston, 402 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: and that's where he got incarcerated when he stole that 403 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: car with his friends, you know, and so it has 404 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: become a bit post racial. It's I know, it sounds 405 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: strange to talk about gangs in that way because they're 406 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,479 Speaker 1: thought to be so anti social and so you know, 407 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: like uneducated and just these menacing you know, figures will 408 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: be ready to victimize anyone. But they're not really like that. 409 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: Their kids just like you and I were, and they're 410 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: they're pretty you know, they're stupid too, you know, but 411 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: they do some dumb things. Still. 412 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: It's still sort of shocking to me that that. I mean, 413 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 2: Gabe's job when he was an Olpasso, he was a 414 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,639 Speaker 2: gang investigator for the Department of Public Safety, and he 415 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 2: completely missed it with his brother, I mean all this, 416 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 2: I mean, he knew when he was going to prison obviously, 417 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: but after he got out of prison for the last time, 418 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: he was oblivious to it. It's interesting what you will 419 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 2: overlook in your own family, I guess. 420 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 421 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the term gang member is such 422 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: a misunderstood and misconstrued like the imagery that we get. 423 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: I mean, of course, there are your archetypal gang members, 424 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: you know, cholos and homies you know on the street 425 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: who love to dress the part and play the part 426 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: and all that sort of thing. But I mean that's 427 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: probably another way since you're asking about how things have 428 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: changed over time. Gang members have sort of adopted if posturing, 429 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, where if law enforcement and their gang task 430 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: forces and so on are going to key in on 431 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: those signifiers, then you start to disguise them. That's also 432 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: a progression of gang life is to you know, wear 433 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: long sleeves and hide your affiliation. And if you do 434 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: happen to get booked into county jail on something, do 435 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: not disclose to the classification officer your affiliation. Don't put 436 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: tattoos on that make that so obvious. You know, it's 437 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: it's a double edged sword, right because I mean, if 438 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: you know, if you don't put those, you know, block 439 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: us on yourself, these gang affiliate tattoos. Then you know, 440 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: they speak volumes when you walk into a pod. But 441 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: they can keep you a lot out of a lot 442 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: of trouble if you if you avoid them right with 443 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: law enforcement. So it's always a slippery slope, and these 444 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: guys all know it, you know, But we make our choices. 445 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: As much as society is structured around us and creates 446 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: or or misses these things or whatever. I mean, individuals 447 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: on the micro level, you know, do have to navigate 448 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: those worlds and make those choices right. So that's always 449 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: going to be the case. 450 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much, and this has really been helpful. 451 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 2: It's you know, some context we can get in here. 452 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: Those prison gangs is one of those topics that has 453 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: been so mythologized that it's diceptions of clarity on it. 454 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: Well, hope and helpful and it's always fun. Good. It 455 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: was a gay conversation. 456 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 2: If you'd like to learn more about Mike's research, he's 457 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: published a few books. His most recent titles are Gangs 458 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: of the El Paso Warez Borderland and the Barrio Gangs 459 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: of San Antonio, Texas. The brothers Ortiz is a production 460 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 2: from Campsite Media in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. Listen on 461 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 462 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 2: The brothers Ortiz was written, reported, and hosted by me 463 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: Sean Flynn. Lane Rose is our senior producer. Story editing 464 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: by Audrey Quinn, sound design, mix and engineering by Garrett Tiedeman. 465 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: Original music by Garrett Tiedeman, Backing by Savannah Wright. iHeart 466 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: Podcasts Executive producers are Lindsay Hoffman and Jennifer Bassett. Campside 467 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: Media's executive producers are Josh Deen, Vanessa Grigoriatis, Adam Hoff, 468 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: and Matt Cher. A special thanks to our operations team 469 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 2: Doux Laywyn, Ashley Warren and Sabina Mara. If you enjoyed 470 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: The Brothers Ortiz, please rate and review the show wherever 471 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,719 Speaker 2: you get your podcasts, and thanks for listening.